Which Gaming LCD? [Archive] - XtremeSystems Forums

Salahuddin

07-11-2005, 03:52 PM

Well, I've done tons of reading on LCDs and I've narrowed my purchase down somewhat for my new gaming PC. In reality, I think I'm going to have to go to a local store to check them some LCDs out before making a final decision. However, in the meantime, I was hoping to get some opinions on which LCD I should buy.

First, lets get some stuff out of the way first. I realize that CRTs are better than LCDs for gaming... but, I have a 21-inch Sony Trinitron monitor at the moment and I can tell you I NEVER want to lift this thing ever again. Not only that, I experience considerable eye strain when using this monitor... something I'm hoping an LCD will correct.

Now, I'm building a powerhouse system with an AMD X2 4400 CPU with two BFG GeForce 7800 GTXs in SLI.

So, with all that power, I was thinking of getting a 20 inch LCD screen with a S-IPS panel and 16ms refresh rate and 1600x1200 native resolution. I know people have mentioned inexpensive Dell models (i.e. the 2001FP and 2005FPW)... but I'd have to order these from Dell and risk the chance of getting one with a manufacturing defect (in my reading, they are notorious for having backlight issues... not to mention dead pixels which plague most LCDs). Then there are the Apple Cinema displays... but these are quite expensive.

As a result, I have narrowed my choices for 20 inch displays to the Viewsonic VP201B and BenQ FP2091. I should be able to test either model out before buying and I can get them for around $750 (Canadian dollars).

However, it seems to me that ALL the LCDs tailored to the gaming market with fast response times are TN panels in the 19-inch range (I don't want anything smaller). Of these, the Hyundai L90D+ seems to be the best choice, due to price and overall performance ($440 Canadian). The Viewsonic VP191B is probably the best overall 19-inch monitor in existence (its excellent for EVERYTHING including gaming) and the Nec 1970GX is probably a slightly better gaming monitor, but both are quite pricey and approach the cost of the 20-inch panels above.

However, my gripe with these 19-inch monitors is that they all run at a 1280x1024 native resolution. Which leaves me with the following question:

Considering the power of two 7800 GTX GPUs in my PC, should I sacrifice some gaming performance and go with a 20-inch display with higher resolution and widescreen gaming possibility OR is it wiser to just save the cash and go with a 19-inch gaming LCD that has better gaming performance anyways?

Going for a 19-inch LCD makes me feel a little restricted because I'll have all this horsepower in my PC, but be restricted to 1280x1024 gaming. However, it promises to offer smoother gaming experiences.

Going 20-inch makes me feel like I might improve my gaming experience with higher resolutions in widescreen format... but may also ruin it with motion blur and shadowing.

So, at the end of the day... you guys with killer machines, what do you choose to game on and what suggestions can you give me? Should I got widescreen and get a 20-incher... or should I just stick with a good 19-inch gaming LCD for now... at least until something better comes to the market?

Please note that I realize some people game on 23-inch (or higher) displays, but gaming at 1920x1200 resolution seems a little too high for me, considering that most games don't support it (meaning you have to run games in resolutions that are non-native which results in worse picture quality)... and that it probably puts too much demand on your system. I know that my setup would support such resolutions fine right now... but I don't want my dual 7800 GTX setup to feel obsolete next year because I'll be forced to run my games at such a high resolution or sacrifice performance for picture quality at lower resolutions. Plus, I'm not really interested in putting over $1000 into an LCD unless the gaming experience is REALLY worth it.

Turok

07-12-2005, 04:42 PM

Choosing the right LCD is a difficult decision, since most specs are not accurate, some LCD change technology with the same model, and they can become really expensive when adding minor details.
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I rounded things up this way (Similar to your plans)

19” LCDs

Viewsonic VP191B:
Best of the best

Hyundai L90D+:
Cheap and powerful

24” Widescreen LCD

Dell 2405fpw:
looks like the best 23”/24” LCD performance and price wise

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Now game resolutions.

7800GTX in SLI is a lot of power. It’s about 50% more power than my x850xt at the peak of resolution. At that resolution, you can easily run 1280x1024 at 6xAA 16xAF in all your games, but you should note that games like F.E.A.R. are going to be really demanding in performance. My x850xt can run F.E.A.R. at 1024x768 with no AA and AF at stock speeds without a problem, but when I change it to 1024x768 at 4xAA 8xAF, it would only be above 30 FPS if I OC it. Comparing this to your card, you could probably stop at 1600x1200 at 4xAA 8xAF, so a resolution of 1280x1024 at 6xAA and 16xAF could be similar in quality.

What I like about the Dell 2405fpw is that it has a mod that lets you change the aspect ratios, so you can have a native resolution of 1600x1200 4:3 without stretching the image, but you wont be using a lot of pixels because of that. If you play games running on the Source engine and FarCry, then you can play at a native 16:10 resolution and you will be able to see more than everyone else.
Check it out:
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/8766/img04054cc.jpg

EDIT: Here (http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49242) is a link were you can see the difference between 4:3 and Widescreen in CSS

If you play games like UT2007, the stretching won’t make the game look that bad.
Here is a sample:
http://img216.echo.cx/my.php?image=shot000032aj.jpg
Click two time on the image for the native resolution. Since you have 2x7800GTX on SLI, putting a resolution above 1600x1200 with 6xAA and 16xAF will make it look a lot better at that resolution and it wont matter if it’s a bit stretched sideways

I’ve read a lot of comments from other users about the 2405fpw in the [H]ard|Forum forums and Anandtech and they say they don’t notice any ghosting and the screen looks awesome. NOTE: apparently the back light problem you mentioned only happens with older 2005fpw.

I don’t know if the reviews you showed me exaggerate some defects on the 2405fpw, and I also don’t know if they got a bad model because of the day they got the monitor, but I see a lot of happy buyers, and especially gamers. Would be nice to hear from someone with a 2005fpw or 2405fpw

The 2005fpw is for users who run a card < 6800GT / x850 pro, and the 2405fpw is for users with a card > 6800 Ultra / x850xt
I think your cards will take more advantage of the 2405fpw than any other monitor

I didn’t vote anything because I don’t know the definite choice yet, but if there isnt a problem with the Dell 2405fpw, then that would be the best choice

Someone please comment about their 2405fpw
thx

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Here are some quotes from other forums:

[H]ard|Forum

Games
If a monitor and computer will play hot games it can do about everything else with ease. I had to know. I first went for Unreal Tournament 2004 in Capture the Flag. Res of 1920 x 1200. I expected this to look good as there is no dynamic lighting for the video card and monitor to render and display. And it WAS good. Absolutely unbelievable! Just beautiful. No lag, no drag, full speed frag. And I could see so much more on the screen. It was quite apparent to me. Heaven! I did not play on line, just with bots offline. I imagine it will be the same online.

Next up was Half Life 2. Same res, 1920 x 1200. I went into Ravensholm to play around. And I was playing a mod which adds lots more enemies to the game, lots of action. Same thing, no lag, no drag, very playable. I was really surprised, I had expected something a bit less; a stutter or drag here and there especially with lots of action. Thought I might have to scale it down. But I played it like I always have. No trouble. The thing works like a charm. I was really really pleased.

Well after that I thought I would go for a game that has tons of dynamic lighting and shadows to see what happened. I loaded up Thief Deadly Shadows and when for a Thieving run. Fist off, this game has no setting for 1920 x 1200 and if there is a tweak I have not looked it up over at Widescreen gaming. So I played 2 ways, 1 to 1 and Fill. 1600 x 1200 right in the center of the screen was fine for me. OMG, the thing still did not drag at all. So I let it stretch and fill the screen. Flawless! I went roaming through The Cradle without a twitch. I know this game is a bit slower play than the usual action type game but it does have tons of lighting to keep up with. I know one of the DEV’s who worked at Ion Storm here in Austin developing it and he told me that they had to do serious planning on the maps because if there was too much lighting for the comp and video card to keep track of, the frame rates just cratered. But with my rig it was very playable on this monitor. I could see no difference from my old one.

I also loaded up the old game Thief Metal Age just to see what would happen with an old one. 1600 x 1200 center screen. This game for some reason looked a bit faded, not crisp, and the sky detail was not there. So I scaled down the res to 1024 x 768 in 1 to 1 and it was no better. I tried all the available resolutions back up to 1600 x 1200. So far no help. I have not messed with this one for very long but if anyone has any ideas please post away. Maybe it is just because it is old but I doubt it. It probably needs an options tweak or something.

I for sure will be trying other games to see. Will put in the Doom3 patch and tweak and will also try Riddick as both those games have lots of dark areas to dig into. And a bunch more. Have to see how this thing does with lots of games. That includes Far Cry,

I should note that I saw no Ghosting in anything above, no trails of any kind. But I did see a certain amount of Motion Blur. Heck, I saw motion blur with my CRT. I did not find it objectionable.

I know I only have a few hours of gaming on this new Monitor. So I will keep at it and see if anything odd comes up in the near term.

Tried more games. Thief Deadly Shadows stretches to fill fine. Does not look odd. The shadows are not black but they are not black to begin with. You could not see in them if they were dark black. I have seen fan missions that were too black and for certain the shadows were awful. T DS meets my approval so far on the shadowing as it should be. Wish it had native or even tweaked widescreen but so far it does not.

Riddick has some really dark places so I loaded it up. It has native 1920 x 1200. Nice! I had the Shader set full up at 2.0 +++ in options. And it was just a bit laggy for my taste. I thought, uh oh, one game that doesn't work well at this res. Well I dropped the shader to just 2.0 which works for my 6800 series Nvidia and the lag went completely way. Very Very nice. And...the shadows and nice and black, very dark. Yes I know they are basically a very dark Indigo color but when you have brightness from other spots in an area, on the screen they look absolutely black. Good stuff still.

I also loaded up Doom 3 with the new patch and Widescreen Tweaks. Wonderful! Shadows are black Black. And there are lots of places that look that way. No lag either.

I am so impressed with the gameplay. I expected to have to notch some games down resolutionwise with this monitor and res a bit. But I have not had too yet. Not Half Life 2, Doom 3, Riddick or Thief 3. Riddick is the only thing I had to change slightly and it does not look any different onscreen. Return to Wolfenstein at 1600 x 1200 works well stretched. The native Widescreen setting in it does not stretch as far as I have been able to do. Was not usable during my play. Will have to try Call of Duty. Far Cry is sweet. I am in gamers Heaven on some of this. On Thief Metal Age. I had to Tweak the Brightness in options a bit and set it lower. Thats why I was getting no sharp detail. It does stretch fine though.

So far I am very happy with this Monitor. And too think it is a PVA LCD which has had response probs in the past. At this point I am sticking with my words that Samsung and Dell have slammed this one way out there. I hope my opinion holds. It is still a new toy and I am watching closely. I have no component inputs as of yet but a set top box is on my mind to see HDTV on this thing. Will see sometime soon how that does,

I hope others post reviews. I really do like to hear about other experiences or opinions.

More when I have something to say ;) . This monitor is FINE!

Anandtech Forums

I have a 2405FPW and my wife has a 2005FPW and she still likes mine better Not sure how your system is set up but when I bring up Visio and bring up a blank page, its so white its almost blinding - like I'm on a ski slope in bright sunlight I play games on mine: EQ2, Guild Wars, Doom 3, Thief 3, and Splinter Cell (all of them) and so far, I've not noticed one single issues with response time or "ghosting" of the sort - they all play flawlessly.

R
*****BELOW YOU CAN SEE THE ASPECT RATIO MOD*****

quote:

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Originally posted by: Space Cowboy
Man .. I'm getting confused again but it doesn't take much

But I love the contrast in colors when using a BLACK background.

Rock & ROLL

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Just take alook at the resolution scaling for yourself here.

These are BAD quality pics, but hey they were done right now and done for free.. so live with it

1:1 Starcraft (http://home.mchsi.com/~mwkinney/1_to_1.jpg)
Aspect stretching (http://home.mchsi.com/~mwkinney/aspect.jpg)
Fill (stretches beyond the original 4:3 aspect ratio) (http://home.mchsi.com/~mwkinney/fill.jpg)
the early 2005fpws had backlight issues, and you can see that on my panel.
its much exaggerated in photos than it is in practice.. but the new ones dont have such a problem like that

Dude, my god. Just take my word for it, 90% of these guys would take a new Dell 2405FPW over a old crappy 21" CRT..
they either are graphic artists (who have to have the absolute best image quality, so they use CRTs) or they are CRT fanboys (yes they still exist)

facts and fast advancing LCD technology has pretty much wiped out CRT fanboys.. but most cling to CRTs for cost.. but if you cant afford a $500 screen (even the good CRTs cost this much) or more.. you shouldnt be in this hobby and commenting on this expensive hardware in which all of the good stuff does not come cheap.

Yes, a $80 19" CRT is a good deal.. but whooptie whoop.

Enjoy
Turok

Salahuddin

07-12-2005, 06:48 PM

Thanks for the reply Turok... I think we've been reading the exact same stuff over the past few days because I remember reading those same comments from other users you posted. Man... the decision is indeed a hard one.

But, just to let you know, I went to Futureshop, Staples and Costco today and picked up a Viewsonic VP201s to test out. I'm going to return it because I can pricematch it at Staples and get it for cheaper (bought it from Costco for $799 CAN).

In any case, I just wanted to let you know that I was kind of surprised when evaluating the different panels. Of course, I wasn't able to do any serious testing, because all the monitors are hooked up to one computer... actually all I was able to do was run a DVD 3D animated movie called the "Ice Age."

In any case, here are some observations I thought I might share with you:

1. They had 17, 19, 21 and 23-inch monitors on display there and I was suprised to see how close the monitors were in size. In fact, I was anticipating being blown away by the sheer size of the 23-inch panels the way some have been talking... but in reality, I found myself actually having to read the description panels to confirm they were indeed 23-inch displays!

2. They had a 23-inch BenQ FP231W which I believe is the same panel used for the Dell 2405FPW. It had a 1920x1200 native resolution with a 16ms response time... and was by specification, the best 23 inch monitor there (the other two were a Sharp and NEC screen, can't remember the model numbers, but both had higher response times and the Sharp and a lower native resolution).

Now, I have to honestly say that I was far from impressed with the 23-inch BenQ monitor. Now its true that the monitor probably wasn't running in its native resolution and probably wasn't calibrated... but compared to the other monitors up there, including the other 23-inch monitors, the colour and picture quality was significantly less impressive than the NEC 23-inch panel or some of the other 19-inch panels.

In addition, I tried to test motion blur by keeping the DVD on the intro screen, where the same motion of the animated characters occur over and over. Compared to the NEC 1970GX and Samsung 930B gaming LCDs, I noted CONSIDERABLE motion blur. In fact, the grand majority of the 17 and 19-inch panels had noticebly LESS motion blur than the BenQ or the other 23-inch panels. Now, I'm not sure if this is the same "motion blur" I should expect to see in games... but, I must honestly say that I wouldn't want to game on this monitor if that was the case.

3. The monitors that most caught my eye were the NEC 1970GX and 1770GX (the 17-inch version). These screens had Optinuclear technology which basically amounted to a very clear and glossy screen. The ultimate effect it had was to make colours appear more vibrant and the picture appear almost 3D. Especially with a lot of movement on the screen, the NEC panels really stood out IMO. At the same time, however, the glossiness of the screen also makes it highly reflective... so you could see yourself in the monitor, as well as people walking by behind you (its more glossy than a CRT). I'm sure the lighting in the store was partially to blame, but I could see how this monitor could get annoying if you had a window behind you in your room. However, regardless, the monitor provided an initial "WOW factor" when I saw it.

4. I ended up buying a Viewsonic VP201s solely to test out from Costco. I have a 60 day return period, so I'm downloading the Halo Trial, Pariah Demo, and SpecForce demos to test it out. Pariah and SpecForce are new games so I'm going to see what I can do on the monitor. As for the Halo Trial, I'm pretty good at it (if I must admit)... so one of my crude tests will be to game on both monitors and see if my competitiveness decreases on the LCD.

Anyways, just thought you'd be interested and I'll let you know how things progress. ;)

Oh and that thing you said about FEAR being such a demanding game... makes me think more that I should just get a 1280x1024 monitor. With HDR technology and maxed out AA and AF... even a 7800 GTX SLI setup looks like it can be stressed with all the bell's and whistle's on. That could mean that by the next year, 1920x1200 could very well be too high to game enjoyably... and you'd be forced to play on non-native resolutions. If that's the case, buying such a huge screen doesn't look like the best investment IMO. I could see getting away with 20-inch screen with a native resolution of 1600x1200... but 1920x1200 seems a little high to me.

Turok

07-12-2005, 07:25 PM

Nice nice :up:

I thought the same thing about the Apple Cinemas when I first saw them. I was Impressed by the size of the 30" Cinema HD thinking it was a 23" Cinela HD :p:
They are big tho, compareing it with my 19" CRT (18" viewable)

I could try that with the Dell 2405fpw. I could try it for a month or so and if i dont like it, Ill return it and get watever 19" is better.

Why do you say the BenQ 23" uses the same pannel that the 2405fpw has?
Does the BenQ use the same Samsung pannel? :confused:
I was amazed when I saw the Apple 23" Cinema HD, and Dell is better, so it shouldnt be that bad.

Would like to see some view angle pics, possible ghosting pics, and Vs. pics with your 21" CRT :)

When you take the pics, could you add FRAPS on the screen so I can see how well the games run on your 2x 7800GTX on SLI ;)

I really like how HL2 looks on the pic I posted above. Ill post my own pics with all the games I have if I get the 2405fpw

Also try downloading the F.E.A.R. Beta demo. That could stress out your card too.
EDIT:oops, didnt see you wrote FEAR on your last post :p:

About the reflectiveness on the NEC LCDs, could it also be that they cleaned the screen with a detergent and damaged the Aunti-Glare coating?

BTW, Halo looks better in higher resolutions. Looks like when you raise the resolution, the game engine starts to add stuff making it look better. Thats something to note if you are going for a 19" and like playing Halo

Salahuddin

07-12-2005, 07:58 PM

Would like to see some view angle pics, possible ghosting pics, and Vs. pics with your 21" CRT :)

When you take the pics, could you add FRAPS on the screen so I can see how well the games run on your 2x 7800GTX on SLI ;)

Sorry Turok, I haven't actually assembled my PC yet. I'm awaiting shipment on ONE 7800 GTX and my hard drive and DVD drive are with my in-laws. Plus I need to buy a PSU... hehe.

So, unfortunately, all my testing will be done on my MONSTER P4 2.6 GHZ Northwood + GeForce Ti4400 PC. I know you can feel the power bro...

I'll try and post some pics for you nevertheless.

About the reflectiveness on the NEC LCDs, could it also be that they cleaned the screen with a detergent and damaged the Aunti-Glare coating?

Haha... no no... this is their new Optinuclear technology. Read all the reviews on the 1970GX and 1770GX... they will point out the glossy screen for you. The BenQ FP91V+ has something similar too... I saw the 17-inch model of the BenQ in Staples, but it was poorly calibrated (the picture was showing double) and I couldn't run anything on it.

Turok

07-12-2005, 08:14 PM

So, unfortunately, all my testing will be done on my MONSTER P4 2.6 GHZ Northwood + GeForce Ti4400 PC. I know you can feel the power bro...

indeed, you have much power :fact:
lol :D

I dont see anywere that the BenQ FP231W uses the same samsung pannel used in the 2405fpw

Necromonger

07-12-2005, 11:09 PM

I ended up buying a Viewsonic VP201s solely to test out from Costco. I have a 60 day return period, so I'm downloading the Halo Trial, Pariah Demo, and SpecForce demos to test it out. Pariah and SpecForce are new games so I'm going to see what I can do on the monitor. As for the Halo Trial, I'm pretty good at it (if I must admit)... so one of my crude tests will be to game on both monitors and see if my competitiveness decreases on the LCD.

Salahuddin, good choice on the VP201S, I think your going to love it.
I love my VP201S and I can honestly say that I have absolutely no complaints at all.
I am so glad I switched from a CRT to an LCD.
I will never go back to a CRT.

Here is a good thread on the VP201 B and or S, if you already haven’t found it:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=780004&page=1&pp=20&highlight=Viewsonic+vp201s

Turok

07-13-2005, 07:16 AM

That looks like a nice monitor.
Would you say the colors look better than a CRT?

So it doesnt have any motion blur, no ghosting, no problems?
Its $625 in ZipZoomFly.com HERE (http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=231772). Can it go any cheaper?

Salahuddin

07-13-2005, 12:47 PM

Well, I've been gaming on the Viewsonic now for around 4 hours now and I'm sure you want to hear about my experience so far... especially you Turok ;)

I must apologize, however, but my wife hasn't recharged her digital camera yet and I can't find the recharger anywhere so I have to wait until she gets home before you guys get to see any pics :shrug:

Anyways, I hooked up the monitor yesterday and to my amazement it actually doesn't come with a DVI cable. So, I wasn't able to run both my Sony Trinitron and the Viewsonic monitors run at the same time. I wonder... how much do DVI cables cost anyways?

My results, therefore, were based on analog input alone... which may or may not influence anything... I'm not sure.

First thing I noticed about the monitor was that it had brightness and contrast set to full right out of the box. It was blinding and it was hard to differentiate between colours. Colours were set to 6500K by default as well.

Immediately, I went searching online for some visual monitor calibration pages and was able to adjust to contrast and brightness to more acceptable levels. However, I noticed that all the greys on my screen had this wierd pinkish colour to it. Perhaps it was because I had my Windows "Colour scheme" set to silver from the default blue (and therefore had more greys on my screen)... but it was really annoying. In the end, I had to go to a colour adjustment page and adjust the monitor colour levels manually to get things looking as they should.

Once this was done, everything looked great. The screen was noticebly brighter and clearer than my CRT and the colours were more vibrant. In fact, on my Sony Trinitron, I had adjusted my NVidia driver to add some "colour vibrancy" because I felt my colours were a little more washed out than I liked... but on the Viewsonic I had to turn off colour vibrancy altogether because it was getting "too vibrant" with it on.

A strange thing though... perhaps someone can elaborate on this for me... but after going from looking at my CRT to my LCD (in the middle of the night when I was really tired) I found the LCD screen hard to look at for the several hours before bed. Perhaps it was due to the brightness, or lack of sleep, but I kept rubbing my eyes and had trouble focusing. Today, however, I had no such issue... the screen is much easier on the eyes than my CRT was for text and general screen display.

In terms of gaming, I played the following three demos: Halo, Specforce, and Pariah, and I'll speak about them individually.

I believe myself to be quite good in the Halo PC Trial as I typically used to get the most kills in every match I played... despite if I win or lose. I usually use no vehicles and mainly just kill everyone with my pistol and grenades. My biggest concern of the LCD was that my accuracy would be compromised if there was significant motion blurring or ghosting. But I did NOT find this to be the case.

First off, I tried running the game in native resolution (1600x1200), and I was quite pleased with the image quality. The game appeared much more rich and vibrant than on my CRT and looked quite stunning comparatively. I immediately logged into a multiplayer match and tried moving around to test for ghosting and motion blur. Unfortunately, I couldn't do this reliably because my video card couldn't handle the game at a decent frame rate at this resolution. I tried turning all detail to low and the game was somewhat playable for my tastes, but I was clearly not getting enough FPS to be competitive.

So I set the game back to the 1024x768 resolution I used to play the game at (I need high FPS to play the game as best I can). The monitor scaled fairly well, better than I was expecting, but it I noticed that the image was not as clear as on my CRT.

I did not detect ANY ghosting AT ALL, however, there was significant motion blurring compared to my CRT. I tested both monitors, back and forth, in the same game, and I could even detect the motion blurring on my CRT when I looked for it. This, however, was enhanced on the LCD panel. Basically, as long as you weren't turning your head very quickly on the LCD, everything was amazing. When you turned your head right or left quickly, things sometimes became a "blur" and occassionally I wasn't even able to tell when I should "stop" to face my enemy because the blur was that significant.

That being said, after playing for an hour, I totally demolished my competition as usual and got the highest kills in all my matches :) In fact, I'm used to frequently getting double kills and a few triple kills in my matches... but I got my FIRST KILLTACULAR ever on the LCD monitor. My accuracy was NOT AT ALL comprimised by the motion blur! Moving your head in small increments was not an issue, the blur was only a factor when turning your head very quickly over large viewing angles. And the truth is, it isn't easy to follow things when you turn your head that quickly on a CRT... the motion blur still exists, its just more significant on the LCD.

Next, I tried Specforce, which is some new futuristic squad based FPS. The game itself was kind of boring, IMO, but I'm not into those types of games anyways. Specforce had great graphics, however, and the demo mission places you in a dark forest type setting, lush with trees and a mountain landscape. I must say, looking at this level on the LCD was absolutely amazing at 1600x1200. The trees were almost alive and all the colours were great. The CRT looked much more washed out in comparison.

On the other hand, motion blur in this level stood out more than in Halo. I'm guessing that all the trees waving about exaggerated the phenomenon.... but it was even significantly more noticeable on my CRT as well. It was clearly, however, WORSE on the LCD. In any case, I tried playing the level once on my LCD, then on my CRT, and there seemed to be no significant difference in gameplay. I could not detect ANY SHADOWING whatsover on the LCD. The game was kind of sucky IMO and so I quickly moved on.

Finally, I tried Pariah. After placing all details low, it was playable on 1600x1200 resolution (although not ideally so). Again, the motion blur was noticeable... but it wasn't enough to really affect my gaming experience, and much less than in SpecForce. The game looked quite spectactular as well. No ghosting was noticed.

So, in conclusion, I really like this LCD a lot... however, I'm still undecided on which monitor to get. The motion blur was clearly visible to me and annoying at times, although it did not significantly affect gameplay. I'm assuming that an 8ms TN panel would be much better for this. I know, however, that if LCDs are at least as good as this one in games, I'm probably never going to buy another huge CRT again.

And, just to let you know Turok, the 23-inch displays are known the be less responsive than 21-inch displays, despite similar response times... mainly because they use slow PVA displays and not S-IPS displays. I think you should look into that before you get a 23-incher. A 23-inch is not THAT MUCH bigger than a 21-inch and you could potentially experience even worse motion blurring. Here are some links from HardForum about it:

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=885313&highlight=2405fpw+motion+blur

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=924018&highlight=2405+ghosting

If I really wanted widescreen, I'd get the 2005FPW because they use S-IPS panels. But, in reality, widescreen panels are more nice to look at than being good for zealous gaming IMO. Anyways, I'm going to go play some more. I'll keep you posted on anything else I find out and I'll see if I can get some pics going your way.

Salahuddin

07-13-2005, 02:38 PM

I dont see anywere that the BenQ FP231W uses the same samsung pannel used in the 2405fpw

Sorry Turok, I was wrong, the BenQ FP231W actually uses a FASTER panel than the 2405FPW. The BenQ is a LG.Phillips 16ms S-IPS panel, and the 2405FPW is a Samsung 16ms PVA Panel. So the FP231W would be most definitely better than the 2405FPW for gaming. The Hewlett Packard L2335 and F2304 23-inch panels (essentially the same monitors) are also 16ms S-IPS and BeHardware rated the F2304 as being excellent only for slow games. Check out the link here:

http://www.behardware.com/articles/567-1/23-and-24-lcd-monitors-roundup.html

Turok

07-13-2005, 09:49 PM

Sorry Turok, I was wrong, the BenQ FP231W actually uses a FASTER panel than the 2405FPW. The BenQ is a LG.Phillips 16ms S-IPS panel, and the 2405FPW is a Samsung 16ms PVA Panel. So the FP231W would be most definitely better than the 2405FPW for gaming. The Hewlett Packard L2335 and F2304 23-inch panels (essentially the same monitors) are also 16ms S-IPS and BeHardware rated the F2304 as being excellent only for slow games. Check out the link here:

http://www.behardware.com/articles/567-1/23-and-24-lcd-monitors-roundup.html

From what I understand, the Dell 2405fpw is a SVA pannel (which has higher contrast ratios, but lower response time) what was overrided to PVA speeds of 16ms Response time.
Ive seen these two specs on the 2405fpw:
1)
Grey to Grey = 12
Black to White = 16
1)
Grey to Grey = 16
Black to White = 20

Users report no ghosting, but some say they see a lot of motion blur, others say motion blur doesnt bother.

I will try to get it and maybe I can prove you wrong ;)

About the testings, the calibration problem may be because you are not using a DVI cable. The DVI allows the PC to control the settings on your screen, so it may set up differently on the first time when you plug in the DVI cable.
I also think it might help with your motion blur. Try testing with a DVI cable and a native resolution when you get your new PC running
Also, could you test the view angles on the screem?

BTW, I have Halo for PC (retail). I bet I can kick your a$$ on Halo. Just PM me and Ill give you my Xfire account ;)

Necromonger

07-13-2005, 11:09 PM

That looks like a nice monitor.
Would you say the colors look better than a CRT?
In my opinion it does, I have been using CRT’s for years and they just hurt my eyes, the colors are so brilliant, you almost cant believe it’s a LCD.

So it doesn’t have any motion blur, no ghosting, no problems? Running this LCD in DVI, I don’t notice any of the above. I would recommend that you take one home and give it a test drive but make sure that you run it in DVI. That’s what I did, and I was sold.

Anyways, I hooked up the monitor yesterday and to my amazement it actually doesn't come with a DVI cable. So, I wasn't able to run both my Sony Trinitron and the Viewsonic monitors run at the same time. I wonder... how much do DVI cables cost anyways? That’s funny my Viewsonic VP201S came with both, a DVI cable and a D-Sub cable.

My results, therefore, were based on analog input alone... which may or may not influence anything... I'm not sure.To get the true benefits of this monitor you need to run it in DVI, then you can truly see the difference from analog to digital. There is a difference in IQ running this monitor in DVI.

Salahuddin

07-13-2005, 11:16 PM

From what I understand, the Dell 2405fpw is a SVA pannel (which has higher contrast ratios, but lower response time) what was overrided to PVA speeds of 16ms Response time.

You've totally just confused me here lol. I thought there were only three types of panels MVA/PVA, TN and S-IPS. Maybe I just don't know enough, but I've never heard of SVA.

Oh and here is a link showing that the Dell 2405FPW is a PVA panel:

http://www.prad.de/en/guide/screen1726.html

Users report no ghosting, but some say they see a lot of motion blur, others say motion blur doesnt bother.

Whether or not it bothers you is a personal preference. I just want to let you know its worse than other monitors out there before you go spend your hard earned cash on something you might not want ;)

Here is a blurb from the Hardforums:

“I can tell you that the black is a smidget deeper (on the Hyundai L90D+). This is confirmed by the 0.34 black (Viewsonic) from THG vs the 0.39 black of the L90D+. The contrast ratio on the Hyundai was a bit better because the panel was brighter. The Hyundai is very bright. The uniformity on an all black screen the Hyundai did do a bit better on. With the panel on the black code, with all the room lights turned off, you can see four faint CCFLs in the four corners of the screen aiming towards the center. The Hyundai in the same scenario has a bit brighter horizontal light in the very top and an even brighter bottom bar by the bezel. In this regard, I think the Hyundai was a bit better.

Response time was better on the Viewsonic (VP191B) no doubt. Every now and then, you can tell some colors couldn't change as fast as others (like the extreme black to white to black) because the images didn't "form" at the same time. Rarely does this happen. On the Hyundai, while very good, had a more "even" blur to it--all colors changed together relatively the same time. In all the LCD monitors I have used and owned (Hyundai L90D+, Dell 2001FP, Dell 2005FPW, and the Viewsonic VP191B), by far the most reactive is the 191B. It's better in all regards as a gaming monitor. MVA panel gives it more colors, wider viewing angles and now better reactivity.
The annoying thing about the 191B I found is that when using analog inputs, when the resolution changes, the OSD always flashes the input that it is taking in, even though nothing else is connected to the other DVI or second DB15 sub input. The stupid blue box keeps coming up. That and the ergonomics of Viewsonic, I am not too found of.

I have the Dell 2405FPW and Viewsonic VP191 and I can tell you the VP191 puts the 2405FPW to shame in games. The Viewsonic is much faster. In fact, in my opinion, the 2405FPW is about as slow or a bit slower than the Dell 2001FP and Dell 2005FPW I had. And in my experience of trying "gaming" LCD monitors (Hyundai L90D+, Dell 2001FP/2005FPW/2405FPW, Viewsonic VP191), the 2405FPW exhibits probably the most blurring of the ones I tried."

About the testings, the calibration problem may be because you are not using a DVI cable. The DVI allows the PC to control the settings on your screen, so it may set up differently on the first time when you plug in the DVI cable.
I also think it might help with your motion blur. Try testing with a DVI cable and a native resolution when you get your new PC running

I've calibrated it manually and it looks great now. I've tried testing motion blur in various ways on 1600x1200 on both the LCD and CRT. Namely by going up to a wall/mountain texture and strafing/turning. The difference is notable, but the CRT also has a slight amount of motion blur. I don't have the energy to go to the store and buy a DVI cable lol.

Also, could you test the view angles on the screem?

How exactly do I test that objectively? This monitor is known to have awesome viewing angles and I have to agree that they are incredible... the picture is great even at very wide angles (i.e. >120 degrees approximately, both horizontally and vertically).

BTW, I have Halo for PC (retail). I bet I can kick your a$$ on Halo. Just PM me and Ill give you my Xfire account ;)

Hah... yeah right!!! I have only ever played the demo and Blood Gulch. Can I still play with you with the trial version? I don't have Xfire installed btw.

Oh... btw I have two questions. How can I accurately display the maximum FPS I can get on this screen? I've downloaded the original Half-Life demo. Would showing the FPS on that be my "true" FPS on the screen? I want to see how fast I can push the 16ms S-IPS panel... people say 16ms=62fps or something like that.

Second, if I use DVI, are all my games capped at a maximum of 60fps?

Turok

07-14-2005, 12:42 AM

You've totally just confused me here lol. I thought there were only three types of panels MVA/PVA, TN and S-IPS. Maybe I just don't know enough, but I've never heard of SVA.

Huh?
I thought I saw that from a post of someone in another forum, but cant remember where (maybe anandtech).
I dont remember if he said MVA, PVA, or IPS :p:

Oh... btw I have two questions. How can I accurately display the maximum FPS I can get on this screen? I've downloaded the original Half-Life demo. Would showing the FPS on that be my "true" FPS on the screen? I want to see how fast I can push the 16ms S-IPS panel... people say 16ms=62fps or something like that.

Second, if I use DVI, are all my games capped at a maximum of 60fps?

FRAPS shows you the FPS you are running in games and other stuff, but its going to calculate the speed of the GPU. I dont know how you can calculate the response time on a LCD.

I have the Dell 2405FPW and Viewsonic VP191 and I can tell you the VP191 puts the 2405FPW to shame in games. The Viewsonic is much faster. In fact, in my opinion, the 2405FPW is about as slow or a bit slower than the Dell 2001FP and Dell 2005FPW I had. And in my experience of trying "gaming" LCD monitors (Hyundai L90D+, Dell 2001FP/2005FPW/2405FPW, Viewsonic VP191), the 2405FPW exhibits probably the most blurring of the ones I tried."

Is the difference really that much? between refresh rates and motion blur?
I though i saw people say that the 2405fpw is better in everything than the 2001fpw and 2005fpw

So is the Viewsonic VP201S the best LCD above 1280x1024 for gaming?

I could just get the Viewsonic VP201S, but I need to build up $600 :(
The Dell offers financing.

Is there any other place or method to get the VP201S cheaper.
For how much did you guys get it?

Turok

Salahuddin

07-14-2005, 07:09 AM

This one just went for under $400 bucks brand new on EBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5216748498&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

Don't know if you want to buy from there though. Note that the VP2000s (which is what I have now) is the same model as the VP201s minus the USB port... and I'm assuming now the DVI cable. I called Viewsonic and confirmed this.

Another way to do this is to look for the cheapest price you can find on pricewatch or something, and pricematch it at a local store like staples, futureshop or bestbuy.

That being said, I believe the Dell 2001FP and 2005FPW will be just as responsive as the Viewsonic... I'm just not sure about the 23-inch Dell 2405 FPW.

Here is a nice little blurb about testing for motion blur I thought was interesting:

And the last thing, we stop at 5-8 steps from any wall, face it, and then strafe making periodic stops too evaluate how the textures are blurred in motion. This test is especially effective, if you install a secondary CRT monitor and enable Dual-View mode. Such hardware configuration easily shocks all I-don't-see-any-blur-on-my-50ms-PVA fans — even the fastest LCD strongly blurs details in motion.

Turok

07-14-2005, 08:24 AM

I wouldnt like to risk myself putting a large amount of money for the first time on eBay.
I use mostly www.pricewatch.com and www.pricegrabber.com for a search on the cheapest stores, and the common cheap sotres that I trust are www.newegg.com, www.zipzoomfly.com, www.tigerdirect.com (never bought there tho), www.monarchcomputersystems.com (never bought there too), www.amazon.com, and popular retail stores like www.bestbuy.com, www.circuitcity.com, www.walmart.com, www.dell.com (dell stores), etc.

I trust Amazon.com a lot more than eBay. I even bought a brand new logitech z-5500 for $300 (shipping included) without a problem.

If the 2001fpw and 2005fpw are about the same as the Viewsonic, then the 2405fpw should be better. I thought I saw people say that the 2405fpw is a improved 2005fpw and its also overrided to compete with simmilar 16ms specs. I really like that the 2405fpw has 1000:1 contrast ratio, 500:1 brightness, and a wide screen. If these specs are BS, but really close, then its still better than a lot of 23" LCDs out there (quality wise). People would just say that games like UT2004 play excelent. That they only show a bit of motion blur, but no ghosting.
If all LCDs show motion blur, then the best would be to test if the motion blur is really that bad that a screen like that is not worth buying.
In my opinion, a 23" wide screen is a huge improvement from the 18" viewable area on my 19" CRT.
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/1841/comparison1ea.gif

I sometimes use photoshop and a lot of windows on my screen when Im not playing, so this helps a lot.

Well, now I have a hard decision between a 2405fpw, 2005fpw, or a VP201S.

In amazon, I can get the VP201S as low as $520 from a user
I could also get it from zipzoomfly.com for $610 (shipping included) which looks like the better choise

I can get the 2005fpw even cheaper at $500 from www.dell.com
It all depends if its really better than the 2405fpw, and jsut as good as the Viewsonic VP201S

The 2405fpw went back to $1200. it was $960 with the 20% discount. Ill ahve to wait until it drops to about $800-$900 if I want to buy it

Would like to see some pics on the VP201S, and some tests with a DVI cable

Turok

Salahuddin

07-14-2005, 10:14 AM

If the 2001fpw and 2005fpw are about the same as the Viewsonic, then the 2405fpw should be better. I thought I saw people say that the 2405fpw is a improved 2005fpw and its also overrided to compete with simmilar 16ms specs. I really like that the 2405fpw has 1000:1 contrast ratio, 500:1 brightness, and a wide screen. If these specs are BS, but really close, then its still better than a lot of 23" LCDs out there (quality wise).

It might be true, I'm no expert. But I think you're missing the importance of panels. The Dell 2001FP and 2005FPW use S-IPS panels. The Dell 2405FPW uses a PVA panel. Read this from the FiringSquad Gaming LCD Roundup:

What this means for you is that an 25 ms S-IPS LCD panel works as fast as a 16 ms “TN-film” based technology for the wide range of black to light gray. Only when a pixel is going from pure black to pure white is the TN-film is actually faster. So in nearly every real-world application including first person shooters, the difference in smearing will be minimal. On the other hand, a PVA or MVA monitor that may be advertised as doing 25 ms when going from black to white may very well need 80 ms to transition from black to dark gray!

Speed isn’t everything. IPS panels typically offer better viewing angles with more accurate color, however contrast is poorer. TN-Film technology (the 8, 12 and 16 ms) panels only display 18-bit color. PVA/MVA panels on the other hand are famed for deep black levels and superb contrast ratios that typically come the expense of speed.

So, while pixel refresh is important, the way it’s advertised, it’s about as useful as megahertz ratings for CPUs or watts for amplifiers. It’ll help you decide within a panel type only. That is, an 8 ms TN-film screen is better than a 12 ms TN-film screen, but a 20 ms MVA screen will have significantly worse ghosting than a 25 ms IPS panel. In addition, all things equal and the same advertised pixel refresh, 17-inch LCD panels tend to exhibit less smearing than 19-inch panels.

Would like to see some pics on the VP201S, and some tests with a DVI cable.

I'm still working on the pics. If I can't get them done today, might have to wait until I come back from vacation. I don't have a DVI cable so I won't be able to do DVI for you... sorry man :(

BTW... have you read anything on how the Samsung 193P+ does with games? I believe its a similar panel to the Viewsonic VP191B.

ImportantAwareness89

07-14-2005, 10:49 AM

Um when you play starcraft on a 24" LCD, and I'm speaking the truth... your DRONES/SCVs will be larger than your siege tanks on a 17" screen. IT DOES NOT WORK WELL... lol

Turok

07-14-2005, 12:17 PM

Um when you play starcraft on a 24" LCD, and I'm speaking the truth... your DRONES/SCVs will be larger than your siege tanks on a 17" screen. IT DOES NOT WORK WELL... lol

Im not going to play SartCraft.
Its just an example from someone else of how the aspect ratio mods work on a 2005fpw and 2405fpw

Salahuddin

07-14-2005, 10:15 PM

Turok

07-14-2005, 10:25 PM

Ok Turok, I got some pics for ya. They don't do the monitor justice however... I'm no photographer so I might have been doing something wrong.

Anyways, I've never uploaded pics before... how do I do it?

On my cam, when I put the "Indoor" mod, the screen looks a lot better.
Just something to see if it help improve image quality

The method I use to load the pics is I host them in www.imageshack.us, then I get a direct link of the image only, and then I post it in the forums with [ img ] [ /img ] in between the link. Others bowse it within this site, but I dont know how to do that. Maybe you need to be a admin. Other people have their own servers and accounts that let them post images and they just link it like I do with image shack. Note that image shack limits you with 1mb per image. Try to use a Image editor to save it as a .gif file or something light. Make sure you reduce the image size to about 640x480 or 800x600 so its easier to see in the forums

[XC] leviathan18

07-15-2005, 08:11 AM

sluflyer06

07-15-2005, 08:22 AM

I have the Viewsonic VP191B....I can't say I'd want any other monitor...the response time is great, the colors are Fantastic, and the blacks are VERY black. I haven't had a complaint yet.

Turok

07-15-2005, 09:17 AM

@ microsoft.com use the search and look for powertoys image resizer download that little application and install it then you can right click the image and resize it for the res you want without entering any program there are some useful powertoys over there too...

You can even use paint to resize your pics
The option is in the "Image" tab
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1558/expandirycontraer4yh.jpg

:'( im so confussed in which lcd do i need i had long time ago a benq 15" and i didnt notice any blur or ghosting but after i saw the dell 24" widescreen i felt in love with that lcd i dont have the money to pay that monitor so is out of disscussion how good is the 21" version of the dell?

Im a bit confused too. I saw someone say that the 2405fpw is overrided OVER the 2005fpw, so its better in everything compared to the 2001fpw and 2005fpw. I also see people update from 2005fpw to 2405fpw and they say the 2405fpw is better.
Now I hear that the 2005fpw should be faster and Im getting confused :confused:
I could think about getting the VP201S for $610, but even the 2005fpw is too tempting to ignore at $500 :brick:

there are any 19" widescreen low response time or any 19" with high resolution natively and cheap xD turok you have to make a list of the best lcd monitor out there from 19" to 24"

Where do I make it?
In a new thread?

I could just say "here are the best LCD", but cant tell you exactly from personal experience if they ghost, blur or look good if I have'nt had any

btw i saw your computer and let me say is just beatiful get quickly the lcd monitor to match that nice desktop you have really sleek and with a lot of class (sad you use that little keyboard)

My deck keyboard is awesome (but expensive tho)
The quality is better than any other keyboard
They sell them in www.deckkeyboards.com
Dont know if they ship international

I have the Viewsonic VP191B....I can't say I'd want any other monitor...the response time is great, the colors are Fantastic, and the blacks are VERY black. I haven't had a complaint yet.

sluflyer06, could you comment about your LCD and show some pics?

[XC] leviathan18

07-15-2005, 10:16 AM

sluflyer06

07-15-2005, 10:38 AM

Hmm comment on...Well the bezel is TINY, at night when your gaming you don't really notice anything but the screen itself, its much lighter than my previous 19" Graphic Series Viewsonic, I guess I'll link you to the Specs, I"m at work for another 2.5 hours then I'll go home and take some pictures for you..
Things I do on my PC: LOTS of photoshop editing, Movies, Interweb, of course I game fairly constantly :), I also write mucho reports for my classes. IMHO It's does a fabulous job with all the above, in terms of photoshop the images are crisp lines are very delineated and colors are accurate, the screen can be set VERY BRIGHT, almost blinding if your in a high light environment, I set my bright. in the bottom 1/5 its still very bright yet the colors are saturated and blacks well defined, it has no external DC convernter jsut a standard 110V cord like your PSU. I've been extremely pleased with the performance and it was well worth spending the extra money over a more budget oriented LCD
http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktopdisplays/lcddisplays/proseries/vp191b/

Turok

07-15-2005, 11:32 AM

you can make a new thread if you need help getting specs i can help you we can try to find info of the lcd we may consider worthy for all uses like games photoshop general use and post here the coments reviews and specs like a data base so in the future we can add more lcd to it.

your keyboard looks small but is nice i checked the site a looks pretty nice.

i know you can resize it in paint but you have to use paint with power toy is quite fast believe me is just an option you click and you have your image in the desire resolution give it a try

hmmm...
Ill try and research some more to make sure everything is acurate.
Latter on Ill make like a guide with pics and stuff already linked in Word. When Im done, Ill PM you and Salahuddin so you can check it.

Would be nice to have Salahuddin's help, since he seems to know more about the tech

About power toy. No thanks, I use Photoshop CS :D

Hmm comment on...Well the bezel is TINY, at night when your gaming you don't really notice anything but the screen itself, its much lighter than my previous 19" Graphic Series Viewsonic, I guess I'll link you to the Specs, I"m at work for another 2.5 hours then I'll go home and take some pictures for you..
Things I do on my PC: LOTS of photoshop editing, Movies, Interweb, of course I game fairly constantly , I also write mucho reports for my classes. IMHO It's does a fabulous job with all the above, in terms of photoshop the images are crisp lines are very delineated and colors are accurate, the screen can be set VERY BRIGHT, almost blinding if your in a high light environment, I set my bright. in the bottom 1/5 its still very bright yet the colors are saturated and blacks well defined, it has no external DC convernter jsut a standard 110V cord like your PSU. I've been extremely pleased with the performance and it was well worth spending the extra money over a more budget oriented LCD
http://www.viewsonic.com/products/d...oseries/vp191b/

Would love to see those pics
Make sure your camera doesnt have the flash on and its set to indoor mod

[XC] leviathan18

07-15-2005, 11:43 AM

ok im going to be looking this if you need anything that i can help you tell me we can search for all the specs reviews and coments of each lcd so ppl have a good reading about every lcd and can make their mind up and maybe i can make my mind too LOOL

i like your pc with the UV looks sweet.

ok dont try :P the damn powertoys you will miss the calculator with convertions

sluflyer06

07-15-2005, 11:55 AM

[XC] leviathan18

07-15-2005, 12:57 PM

some pics of the monitor would be great i dont think he wants pics with images

Turok

07-15-2005, 12:59 PM

Turok: Are you wanting images with the screen displaying images? I only ask because my Box is down until Monday when my replacdement p5wd2 comes in...i might be able to bring it into my office and hook it up there if this is what your looking for. LMK

I would mostly like to see images of the LCD in action, so I can see how bright it is and how the colors look

If you cant display anything right now, try taking pics of it with a coke can or something simmilar to compare sizes and turn on a light and turn off the flash on your camera to see how it glares. Also take pics of the monitor design. When you get it running with a picture, show some pics of it latter

Thanks for the help

Turok

sluflyer06

07-15-2005, 01:48 PM

alright will do....i'll just take it into my fathers office here at home and hook it up....i'll do it in the next 1-3 hours....lol...since I don't have a working PC its not like I've got much else to do

Salahuddin

07-15-2005, 02:05 PM

Ok guys here are the images of the Viewsonic VP2000s (same model as the Viewsonic VP201s/VP201, minus the USB port).

Before you look at the pics though, I just want to say that they really don't do the monitor justice. Maybe I just have a cheap camera, or don't know how to use it, but I just couldn't get the pics perfect despite what I tried. In all the pics, the colours look faded compared to the true images this monitor provided. For picture quality, this is an AWESOME monitor. For motion blurring, its not so hot.

Anyways, without further avail:

Here is the Viewsonic VP2000s next to my 21-inch Dell branded Sony Trinitron CRT (and YES that is a REAL LONGSWORD on my window ledge... I use it to take down thieves, thugs and other disreputible individuals ;):
http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/8473/b10249ko.jpg

My Desktop:
http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/1465/a10246gk.jpg

Halo:
http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/3405/c10248gp.jpg

I thought I'd post two pics to illustrate "motion blurring." Every LCD motion blurs, some more than others, so people who tell you they see NO MOTION BLURRING, either don't see it or don't care about it. The easiest way I know of testing for motion blurring is to stand near a detailed texture as so:
http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/748/d10245au.jpg

Then strafe either way and see how the texture blurs. Please note that the blurring IS NOT AS BAD AS THE PICTURE BELOW... but rather the blurring in the image is enhanced by the motion blurring of the camera as well. That being said, compared to my CRT there was SIGNIFICANT MOTION BLURRING. Plus, if you look closely, you can see LESS motion blurring in the hand and gun... since this object does not really "move" on screen, that blurring can be considered to be entirely from the camera. If you could subtract this amount of blurring from the blurring of the texture, you would see a better representation of the monitors "true" motion blurring. And... just to let everyone know, there was never any ghosting/trailing that I could detect:
http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/8186/e10246mu.jpg

Couple of pics from Pariah:
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6757/f10243jc.jpg

http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/3821/g10245kp.jpg

Myth: The Fallen Lords (Still an awesome game after all these years!):
http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/3301/h10246vt.jpg

Chrome Specforce:
http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/8899/i10245wk.jpg

After gaming on this monitor for two days, I must honestly say that I have to test a faster 8ms LCD before being able to truly recommend this monitor as a gaming monitor (due to the motion blurring). Since this monitor uses a S-IPS screen rated at 16ms, I thereby would also be wary of purchasing a 20-inch LCD or larger display for gaming... mainly because of the potential for motion blurring with these monitors as no 20-inch or larger LCD is significantly faster than this panel. To be fair, I have to check out a Samsung 8ms panel (i.e. the Hyundai L90D+, Samsung 930B) or an 8ms PVA panel (Viewsonic 191B, Samsung 193P+) to see how much less blurring there is comparatively.

And just to add... motion blurring is NOT just an issue in FPS games. Even in strategy games when you pan the screen, the blurring can get quite annoying. Again, the effect is "quickly" gone when you stop panning... so this may annoy different people to different degrees. However, I even asked my wife to watch while I played some games, and she even found the motion blurring to be distasteful despite the fact she hardly even plays video games.

Personally, although I found gaming to be enjoyable on this monitor due to its great picture quality, I found the motion blurring to be too distracting and distasteful to enjoy my games as much as I would like. I plan to return this monitor in the near future and will consider buying a faster 8ms panel even though they have a lower native resolution.

Despite these comments, if you want a big screen with great picture quality, the Viewsonic provides amazingly crisp images and vibrant colours. It totally put my CRT to shame in this department and, from what limited knowledge I have of LCDs, I would consider this monitor to be amongst the best of LCDs in this regard.

Again guys, I apologize for not being a better photographer and I hope this post helped some people with their decisions (or at least made them think harder about it ;) ).

PS. Oh and thanks for the kind words Turok... much appreciated :D
I'd be happy to help you in whatever way I can.

Turok

07-15-2005, 02:34 PM

Now that is a really horrible motion blur :(

Did you take the pics running on a DVI cable?

Necromonger, do you see this motion blur on your screen with the DVI cable?

Salahuddin, if you grab a window and drag it around the screen fast and slow, can you see any ghosting or motion blur. Thats the only thing I tested on all the Apple Cinema HDs (20", 23", and 30") in the Apple store, and none of them showed any motin blur. Not a single glitch. If you also get motion blur by moving a window arround your background, then it might be because you are not using the DVI cable.

Turok

07-15-2005, 04:55 PM

Salahuddin, does the motio blur really look like that in real life, or is it blur from the camera?
I tried it with my CRT and it blured a lot like your pic, but the screen didnt have any motion blur or ghosting when moving sideways looking at the grass floor

[XC] leviathan18

07-15-2005, 05:13 PM

i think we can check the blur if you take a screen shot rather than a pic i think in that way is more acurate

Turok

07-15-2005, 05:54 PM

i think we can check the blur if you take a screen shot rather than a pic i think in that way is more acurate

A screenshot will only take the frame that the video card rendered in that second, so It wont blur. The blurring is caused because of how fast the pixels change

Salahuddin

07-15-2005, 06:00 PM

Did you take the pics running on a DVI cable?

Sorry Turok, no these images were all taken from analog input. However, I don't think DVI should make that much difference is motion blur... I'm pretty sure its dependent on the screen response not the input.

Salahuddin, if you grab a window and drag it around the screen fast and slow, can you see any ghosting or motion blur. Thats the only thing I tested on all the Apple Cinema HDs (20", 23", and 30") in the Apple store, and none of them showed any motin blur. Not a single glitch.

There is slight motion blur when moving a window around the screen, but it is really slight. In fact, the blurring this way looks almost the same as on my CRT screen.

Salahuddin, does the motio blur really look like that in real life, or is it blur from the camera?
I tried it with my CRT and it blured a lot like your pic, but the screen didnt have any motion blur or ghosting when moving sideways looking at the grass floor.

No, as I mentioned, its definitely WORSE than it actually is in that picture I took. I was just showing it so people knew what I considered motion blur and how to test for it. There is definitely motion blur on the screen, but not that bad. The camera certainly made it worse.

If you want a more objective characterizing of the motion blur on this monitor, download this program:

http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/ghosting_test.html

You can run it on your CRT no problem.

1. See the little cars moving across the screen? On my CRT, I can read what the little flag above the car says, on the Viewsonic you can't read it.

2. Then go to the "readability test" and see how many times you can type the letters in correctly. Every time you get the letters correct, they move faster and faster across the screen. On the Viewsonic I can only get to about 9 correct before I ABSOLUTELY CAN'T read the letters anymore. It starts blurring after about getting 3 correct. The readability on a CRT after getting 9 correct should still be very good, as it was on my CRT.

Den Leiw

07-16-2005, 04:36 AM

http://www.alternate.de/html/shop/productDetails.html?artno=V3LC15&

I bought myself that 19"

Best 19" I have seen till now

Turok

07-16-2005, 08:14 AM

http://www.alternate.de/html/shop/productDetails.html?artno=V3LC15&

I bought myself that 19"

Best 19" I have seen till now

Looks like a really nice LCD if those specs are true.
Response time: 4/6 ms
Contrast Ratio: 450/550:1

Problem is I cant find any of them selling in Noth America, only Europe.
Maybe that model is an European version, or maybe BenQ doesnt ship that model to the US

Turok

07-16-2005, 08:20 AM

I went to BenQ's website, and they dont have any retailers in US selling that monitor.
I saw this monitor tho. Looks like a impressive 23" wide screen, but Its too expensive for me
http://www.benq.us/Products/LCD/index.cfm?product=435

They sell it here
http://www.benq.us/wheretobuy/index-us.cfm?product=435

Salahuddin

07-16-2005, 09:49 AM

http://www.alternate.de/html/shop/productDetails.html?artno=V3LC15&

I bought myself that 19"

Best 19" I have seen till now

I have been thinking of the BenQ FP91V+ as well. It has the same glossy screen that the NEC 1970GX has and has Overdrive technology that can push its 8ms panel to 6ms GTG.

However, I read that due to the Overdrive technology, there is slight jerking occassionally in video feedback and gaming from multiple sources. This apparently happens very occassionaly, but it made me a little worried.

Here is a blurb from the HardwareZone about it:

Not everything was smooth going though, since we did notice some teething problems with their technology. With Overdrive on, there were times where a slight jerking could be noticed during video playback and gaming. This anomaly is not like the visible ghosting or streaking effects, but more of a minute jerk in certain areas with heavy movement. Note that these are extreme cases we put the monitor through and most users would not notice this unless they purposely tried to re-create it.

You can read the review here if interested:
http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?cid=5&id=1454

Also, although the glossy screen looks so amazing, I also read that it actually can put you at a disadvantage in gaming with dark tones.

Here is a little blurb from BeHardware about it:

We have submitted the FP91V+ to a series of duels in clone mode.

Compared to the VP191b, its reaction time was better

It was hard to tell for the comparison with the ViewSonic VX924 as we were disturbed by the micro cuts. Therefore, out of the two of them we clearly prefer the FP91V+!

The FP91V+ reaction time is excellent, we really appreciate this point but we have a hard time getting over the mirror effect. Avoid too dark games, corridors with low lighting, caves… For network games you might be disadvantaged compared to you friends.

About LCD afterglow. Even if this monitor is the fastest one tested, we have to admit that it still isn’t as good as a CRT. One trained user will always spot the afterglow. Not every user has this training, so 99% of them using this monitor won’t see it. This monitor will be perfect for these users. The remaining One- percent will be disturbed and will be right: this monitor still features a slight afterglow. But, honestly, we quickly get over it as soon as we are in the game.

And the link:
http://www.behardware.com/articles/572-2/19-lcd-monitor-survey-4-8-ms-tn-ips-va.html

Regardless, I think the FP91V+ is a really good monitor and I am strongly considering it with the Hyundai L90D+.

Please let me know if you have noticed any of the issues mentioned above with this monitor. Despite the possible disadvantage, the glossy affect really makes the monitor come to life... and if you organize the lighting in your room, I can't see it being that big of a problem.

Den Leiw

07-16-2005, 11:47 AM

Until now I havent had any problem concerning that matter, although quite frankly I didnt had that much time to play around with it. Got it only 1 week ago

Well I have the FP91V, not the FP91V+ but there isnt that much difference between the two anyway

Gonna feed it with some games and videos soon...

And at least I dont have any dead pixel :)

Necromonger

07-16-2005, 02:02 PM

Necromonger, do you see this motion blur on your screen with the DVI cable?

All CRT’s and LCD’s have some motion blur, but I don’t have any motion blur like the pics above, having this LCD hook up in DVI makes a big difference because I don't notice the motion blur, I am not saying that their is not any motion blur, but if there is, its so insignificant that my eyes don’t notice it.

A properly calibrated LCD using a Digital connection will display the actual color as it is interpreted instead of the approximations found in a CRT in Analog.

I agree with “Salahuddin” on the pics above, they make this LCD’s screen and bezel look orangey yellowish; but in all reality the bezel is bright silver and the screen has vibrant colors.

There is always going to be Pros and Cons when it comes to LCD’s and for that matter CRT’s, the best thing you can do is take a LCD home, hook it up in DVI and experience it for your self, some peoples eyes are more sensitive to motion blur, ghosting and the screen door effect than others. It’s almost like reading hundreds of reviews and not one ever agreeing on the same thing.

Here is a little FYI: “MaximumPC” highly rates the Dell2001FP, but here is the real kicker, the ViewSonic VP201s and or b is the same as the Dell2001FP, Philips 200P4, Eizo E540s and the NEC2080UX, they all use the LG / Philips 20.1" LM201U04 S-IPS panel.

After gaming on this monitor for two days, I must honestly say that I have to test a faster 8ms LCD before being able to truly recommend this monitor as a gaming monitor (due to the motion blurring). Since this monitor uses a S-IPS screen rated at 16ms, I thereby would also be wary of purchasing a 20-inch LCD or larger display for gaming... mainly because of the potential for motion blurring with these monitors as no 20-inch or larger LCD is significantly faster than this panel. To be fair, I have to check out a Samsung 8ms panel (i.e. the Hyundai L90D+, Samsung 930B) or an 8ms PVA panel (Viewsonic 191B, Samsung 193P+) to see how much less blurring there is comparatively.

This analogy is like comparing apples to oranges, or a Barton Core to an A64 Core!

Compare a 16ms panel with a 16ms panel and a 8ms panel with a 8ms panel, that would be a fair comparison.

Salahuddin

07-16-2005, 02:52 PM

This analogy is like comparing apples to oranges, or a Barton Core to an A64 Core!

Compare a 16ms panel with a 16ms panel and a 8ms panel with a 8ms panel, that would be a fair comparison.

Not really. A S-IPS panel rated at 16ms is not the same as a TN panel rated at 16ms. In older models, a 25ms S-IPS panel was close in reactivity to a 16ms TN panel... so it is logical that a 16ms S-IPS panel should be fairly fast. Even monitors sharing the same 8ms panel have different reactivities.

In the end, the purpose of the thread is to see which monitor is the best for gaming. Even if it is akin to comparing apples to oranges to bananas... in the end, we need to find the best fruit for a specific purpose (i.e. say we need to find the fruit with the most calories, or most potassium). In this case, we are trying to find the best gaming LCD and we are trying to see differences in their motion blurring.

Oh btw, I just picked up a BenQ FP91V+ from Staples and I'm going to test it out. Stupid thing was on sale and still cost me $525 Can! That's almost $100 more than the Hyundai L90D+. At least I can test the responsiveness with Overdrive on and off... that should be informative.

Turok

07-16-2005, 02:56 PM

All CRT’s and LCD’s have some motion blur, but I don’t have any motion blur like the pics above, having this LCD hook up in DVI makes a big difference because I don't notice the motion blur, I am not saying that their is not any motion blur, but if there is, its so insignificant that my eyes don’t notice it.

A properly calibrated LCD using a Digital connection will display the actual color as it is interpreted instead of the approximations found in a CRT in Analog.

I agree with “Salahuddin” on the pics above, they make this LCD’s screen and bezel look orangey yellowish; but in all reality the bezel is bright silver and the screen has vibrant colors.

There is always going to be Pros and Cons when it comes to LCD’s and for that matter CRT’s, the best thing you can do is take a LCD home, hook it up in DVI and experience it for your self, some peoples eyes are more sensitive to motion blur, ghosting and the screen door effect than others. It’s almost like reading hundreds of reviews and not one ever agreeing on the same thing.

Here is a little FYI: “MaximumPC” highly rates the Dell2001FP, but here is the real kicker, the ViewSonic VP201s and or b is the same as the Dell2001FP, Philips 200P4, Eizo E540s and the NEC2080UX, they all use the LG / Philips 20.1" LM201U04 S-IPS panel.

This analogy is like comparing apples to oranges, or a Barton Core to an A64 Core!

Compare a 16ms panel with a 16ms panel and a 8ms panel with a 8ms panel, that would be a fair comparison.

Finally, this is what I wanted to read. A concrete answer for my question
Thanks a lot Necromonger :up:

If a Dell 2001fpw is about the same, then it would be better to get a 2005fpw since its a wide screen and they are both about the same.

In fact, I could just get the 2405fpw because Ive constantly been seeing people in Anandtech forums recomending the Dell 2405fpw over the 2005fpw and 2001fpw for gaming, even for games such as UT2004 and HL2.
Im guessing since they recommend the 2405fpw so much, and never complain about it, then it must be that motion blur or ghosting is not noticeable, or that the motion blur is so minor that it doesnt bother that much.

Salahuddin, try to get a DVI cable at least borrowed if you can. You could change your mind about the PV201s.

I think its the DVI cable, because the DVI cable is digital and exchanges information with a higher bandwith. The DVI cable also permits the video drivers to control the LCD automatically.
If you use the VGA connector, the only thing being recieved is a signal of red, another of blue, and another of green.
Without a driver to controll it, you have to setup the screen manually and the screen wont be sincronized with the exchange of information between the LCD and the Video card.
Also, LCD recieve DVI signlas only and the video card originally sends a DVI first but is then converted to VGA to pass though the VGA cable. If you use a VGA cable on a LCD, the signal is transformed in the video card from DVI to VGA, and then to the LCD from VGA to DVI

Salahuddin

07-16-2005, 03:12 PM

Salahuddin, try to get a DVI cable at least borrowed if you can. You could change your mind about the PV201s.

If a DVI cable comes with the BenQ I just picked up, I'll try it. But, I'm leaving for vacation today and won't be back for a week.

Necromonger

07-16-2005, 05:29 PM

Not really. A S-IPS panel rated at 16ms is not the same as a TN panel rated at 16ms. In older models, a 25ms S-IPS panel was close in reactivity to a 16ms TN panel... so it is logical that a 16ms S-IPS panel should be fairly fast. Even monitors sharing the same 8ms panel have different reactivities..
I understand what your trying to say about the “S-IPS panel rated at 16ms is not the same as a TN panel rated at 16ms” but to be fair that’s how one should compare them, at their response time in ms, but in all due respect, I will still stay with my statement!

With your analogy it like comparing a 6800GT to an 7800GT, can you take a guess on which one is better, come on, there would be absolutely no competition against the latest technology.

Your increased motion blur on the VP201 could be do to the facts of your rig being old technology a “GeForce Ti4400 PC” and not the LCD, my old GeForce Ti4600 8x could not even run my VP201 in DVI at 1600x1200 @ any good FPS, I had to buy a FX5900U to even run at a decent FPS. But now running 6800GT’s in SLI @ 1600x1200 it screams FPS. This LCD needs to be ran in DVI @ 1600x1200 to get the true benefits of its IQ.

In the end, the purpose of the thread is to see which monitor is the best for gaming. Even if it is akin to comparing apples to oranges to bananas... in the end, we need to find the best fruit for a specific purpose (i.e. say we need to find the fruit with the most calories, or most potassium). In this case, we are trying to find the best gaming LCD and we are trying to see differences in their motion blurring.
I understand the purpose of your thread, but if your looking for the “Best gaming LCD” that’s out there, then their is no doubt its the latest technology 4ms panels, why would one even waist their time with the old technology 25ms, 16ms, or even 8ms for the "Best gaming LCD", but lets not forget you pay up the nose for the latest technology………......

In fact, I could just get the 2405fpw because Ive constantly been seeing people in Anandtech forums recomending the Dell 2405fpw over the 2005fpw and 2001fpw for gaming, even for games such as UT2004 and HL2.
Im guessing since they recommend the 2405fpw so much, and never complain about it, then it must be that motion blur or ghosting is not noticeable, or that the motion blur is so minor that it doesnt bother that much.

Exactly, I think you would be very pleased with any of the dell LCD’s you have mentioned, they have a great policy, if your not 100% pleased with their LCD’s you can upgrade it or get a refund which ever you want, within so many days, its almost like taking a test drive! They want you to be happy! Call Dell and ask them.
A few of my friends have the 2405FPW and the 2001FPW and are totally 100% satisfied.

Turok

07-16-2005, 06:40 PM

Necromonger

07-16-2005, 11:38 PM

A gaming LCD is not all Speed, its also about quality.

On the first part of your statement “A gaming LCD is not all Speed” I will have to disagree with that, it’s a known fact that FPS is King.

In theory a 4 ms gray to gray response time panel should give up to 250FPS and a 8ms response time panel should give up to 125 FPS and finally a 16ms response time panel should give up to 60 to 63 FPS, but the whole key is, can your GPU and CPU keep those FPS consistent.

On the second part of your statement: “its also about quality” I will agree with that, because a quality panel should be a 8 bit (16.7Million color) panel, and also have DVI, and a less quality panel would only be a 6 bit (262,000 color) panel and may or may not have DVI.

Do your friends play UT2004, HL2, CS 1.6, CSS, FarCry, and game like that? If so, do they notice any ghosting or motion blur?
My friends and I play UT2004, Unreal II, COD, Halo, FarCry, MOH, HL2, Quake III Arena, Doom III and many other games, I have never ever heard them complain about ghosting or motion blur, all I ever hear them say is how much they love their LCD’s.

I keep saying over and over the only way your going to know if you like a particular LCD is to take it home and experience it for your self, period.

If you want a well-informed thread on LCD’s with a lot of LCD gurus then check this thread out called “The definitive LCD thread”, I started the thread on page 228 so go backwards and read their testimonials :
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/67909965/m/4190936913/p/228

Anyway, good luck in your LCD endeavor.

Sz1hart

07-17-2005, 01:12 AM

Turok

07-17-2005, 07:33 AM

If you want to wait a little bit, I can give you my opinion of the 2405fpw when it gets here. I order 2, one of which is for someone elses...

I wouldn't get the 2005fpw version because I heard that they have alot of problems like backlighting and etc, but they may have fixed it already.

I made a post in online deals so you should be able to get a 2405fpw for about 900ish shipped depending on where you live tax could be higher.

Dells 100% satisfied thing is for 21 days(starts when the lcd is shipped I believe)

Good luck finding a monitor you like.

Thanks for your help

That I really want to see :)
Will you be gaming on it? If not, could you download demos to test?

I live in Austin, TX so I have Dell right here.
I dont know if the factory is here, but the central part of Dell is here.
How can I locate a factory? Is it possible to make deals with Dell so they dont charge shipping and handleing if I pick it up, but i think shipping is free anyway?

Ill be waiting several months before making my final decision and end up buying the LCD. Its because I need to build up at least half the price (about $400-$500) in order to make my parents start a financing or help me with the other part and I pay them latter. Im also in debt with my brother. I borrowed $300 to finish up my WC solution :p:

well, I hope to see some pics from your LCD, and some extensive textings if you can

Thanks for your help

Turok

Salahuddin

07-18-2005, 08:03 AM

I understand what your trying to say about the “S-IPS panel rated at 16ms is not the same as a TN panel rated at 16ms” but to be fair that’s how one should compare them, at their response time in ms, but in all due respect, I will still stay with my statement!

With your analogy it like comparing a 6800GT to an 7800GT, can you take a guess on which one is better, come on, there would be absolutely no competition against the latest technology.

Well, I think you're underestimating the value of a 16ms S-IPS screen. The analogy is more like comparing a 6800 Ultra with an X850XT PE. Sure the X850XT PE is faster, but the Ultra has texture capabilities that the X850XT PE doesn't. The 16ms S-IPS panels allow for larger screens and higher resolutions, while the 8ms TN panels allow for faster response times at the expense of screen size and resolution. Some will find the 6800 Ultra better than the X850XT PE for gaming and vice versa, the same with the S-IPS and TN panels. Its not as one sided as comparing the 7800 GTX with the 6800 GT... otherwise there would have been no point to this thread.

Your increased motion blur on the VP201 could be do to the facts of your rig being old technology a “GeForce Ti4400 PC” and not the LCD, my old GeForce Ti4600 8x could not even run my VP201 in DVI at 1600x1200 @ any good FPS, I had to buy a FX5900U to even run at a decent FPS. But now running 6800GT’s in SLI @ 1600x1200 it screams FPS. This LCD needs to be ran in DVI @ 1600x1200 to get the true benefits of its IQ.

Well, that is why I was playing Myth: The Fallen Lords and I downloaded the original Half-Life game to test out the monitor. In both games, I still experienced the same motion blurring. Plus, I played all the new games at lower resolutions with much improved frame rates with no improvement in the blurring. From everything I have read, motion blur and response time is unrelated to the actual screen resolution (just image quality is).

However, I haven't tested the monitor in DVI and this may be necessary to make a true conclusion on the motion blur issue. I was under the impression that response time was not related to input, but perhaps it is... and only testing will tell for sure.

I understand the purpose of your thread, but if your looking for the “Best gaming LCD” that’s out there, then their is no doubt its the latest technology 4ms panels, why would one even waist their time with the old technology 25ms, 16ms, or even 8ms for the "Best gaming LCD", but lets not forget you pay up the nose for the latest technology………......

Untrue... the only 4ms panel out there right now is the Viewsonic VX924 and it is worse for gaming compared to other 8ms gaming LCDs out there. Plus, if you look at the votes on the top of the page, most people have recommended gaming on a larger but slower panel. This is "exactly" the reason I started this thread... because its unclear what the "Best Gaming LCD" truly is.

In theory a 4 ms gray to gray response time panel should give up to 250FPS and a 8ms response time panel should give up to 125 FPS and finally a 16ms response time panel should give up to 60 to 63 FPS, but the whole key is, can your GPU and CPU keep those FPS consistent.

I was actually going to say the same thing in reply to your statement Turok (I actually agree with you on this one Necromonger... hehe) :up:. A faster panel will technically allow for a greater frames per second, and therefore a 19 or 17 inch 8ms panel may have certain advantages. The only thing I'm not sure about is if DVI input automatically locks your FPS at a maximum of 60 (since DVI technology is capped at 60 HZ). Regardless, even though a panel is rated at 16ms, that implies that certain areas of its response time will be significantly greater, meaning the FPS will be more likely to reach under 60 FPS. An 8ms panel will also do this, but theoretically to a much lesser extent. So, to get a consistently smooth FPS, an 8ms or faster panel would be better... and would be better for two 7800 GTX in SLI in this regard.

On the second part of your statement: “its also about quality” I will agree with that, because a quality panel should be a 8 bit (16.7Million color) panel, and also have DVI, and a less quality panel would only be a 6 bit (262,000 color) panel and may or may not have DVI.

Well, I agree that in terms of resolution the 8-bit panels are better than 6-bit panels (since all gaming 6-bit panels are 1280x1024) with respect to quality. However, in terms of colour quality, there isn't really and discernable difference in gaming from an 8-bit or 6-bit platform from what I've read. The difference is moreso for DVD/video playback, photos and graphics editing.

Anyways, despite debating with you on these issues Necromonger, I still highly respect your opinion. What do you think are the best gaming LCDs... particularly after reading some of the "definite LCD thread"... keeping in mind two 7800 GTXs in SLI? I'll also try reading the thread later... but I'm on vacation in Florida atm so I might not get to it for a while :D. Thanks!

muaddib

07-18-2005, 03:16 PM

So what is your final verdict, Salahuddin? When will you be testing the 2005FPW & 2405FPW? And IMO, the 2005FPW would be the superior in games, since the S-IPS panel.

Turok

07-18-2005, 05:43 PM

So what is your final verdict, Salahuddin? When will you be testing the 2005FPW & 2405FPW? And IMO, the 2005FPW would be the superior in games, since the S-IPS panel.

I never saw him posting he was going to test any Dell LCD.
I was the one thinking about the 2405fpw.

Sz1hart got 2x 2405fps and Im eager to see his review on the LCD

Salahuddin

07-18-2005, 07:28 PM

So what is your final verdict, Salahuddin?

I'll let you know after I test out the BenQ FP91V+ next week. However, I don't have local access to any of the Dell's, so unfortunately I can't test them.

However, just to add to this thread, I did go to a CompUSA in Florida today and tested out the Apple Cinema 20-inch with some new driving game (forgot the name). I forgot to check if it was in analog or DVI, however, I did notice motion blur similar to the Viewsonic VP2000s. Again, the blurring wasn't so severe as to hinder gaming performance significantly... but it was present and distasteful IMO.

Just to let you know muaddib, I'm going to try testing my VP2000s with a DVI cable if one comes with my BenQ... however, I'm actually not all that impressed with the 16ms S-IPS panel for personal gaming. However, if you were to purchase a large screen LCD for gaming, I would wholeheartedly recommend it over any other panel out there (I definitely wouldn't get a PVA panel) because its easily the fastest panel in terms of response time for these larger LCDs. So I agree with you on the Dell 2005FPW.

urbanfox

07-18-2005, 10:13 PM

I have always been a huge fan of viewsonic (all I order for work and home) especially since they are pretty much military grade (march 04, 2 day old 19" flat crt, lan part, back of suv > concrete bounces 2x then into the curb oh :banana::banana::banana::banana: try it up and the sucker still works....).

Last week to many of my other forum (eocf) members regrets I ordered a ViewSonic VP191B. I got loads of crap and should have never made the thread to hear a bunch of little kids whine about how I got ripped off and the hyndia (sp) rapes my monitor.

Well guess what kiddies today it arrived and all I can say is WOW.

The difference just in windows is fantastic, amazing clarity and brightness and sharp colors. To say the least I was not disapointed and am very happy with my purchase. Long live viewsonic.

Sz1hart

07-19-2005, 01:48 AM

Sorry for the late reply, been busy with stuff and talking to chilly about a unit. I don't know if I should cancel one of my orders to get it or just wait awhile...

Anybody want to buy XP Pro for cheap...so that I can afford a phase unit?

I plan on gaming with the monitor, but I don't have the lastest games for pc. I believe I have guild war, C&C generals, HL2, and some old games. Along with the games I well try to use other software like displaymate and what not. I well also be using my ps2(gt4) and xbox(halo2) for some fun.

I well try to update as soon as I can and try get some pictures...hopefully soon

Salahuddin

07-21-2005, 08:49 AM

I well try to update as soon as I can and try get some pictures...hopefully soon

Hey Sz1hart, would you mind testing the monitor with this program once you get it?

http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/ghosting_test.html

And posting the results here? It would me much appreciated. Don't worry, its a small tiny program that doesn't install anything to your PC. It is just a simple one file executable.

You might want to also add the results of the typing test to this thread as well just so others would know:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68844

Thanks ;)

Salahuddin

Necromonger

07-21-2005, 01:13 PM

Salahuddin, I also respect your opinion and enjoy debating LCD facts with you too. I will still stay with my rationale on comparing LCD response times in ms for a fair comparison; moreover, with your new analogy of a 6800U compared to an X850XT PE, I conquer that it would be a closer comparison, and fundamentally is fairer.

Well, I think you're underestimating the value of a 16ms S-IPS screen. The analogy is more like comparing a 6800 Ultra with an X850XT PE. Sure the X850XT PE is faster, but the Ultra has texture capabilities that the X850XT PE doesn't. The 16ms S-IPS panels allow for larger screens and higher resolutions, while the 8ms TN panels allow for faster response times at the expense of screen size and resolution. Some will find the 6800 Ultra better than the X850XT PE for gaming and vice versa, the same with the S-IPS and TN panels. Its not as one sided as comparing the 7800 GTX with the 6800 GT... otherwise there would have been no point to this thread.

I have absolutely no reason to underestimate the value of the 16ms S-IPS panel, I know the value of this panel because I own a 16ms S-IPS panel it’s a VP201s. Just give it a little time and they will have 8ms panels with higher resolutions on the market and it’s a given that the 8ms panel will have a faster response times than a 16ms panel, isn’t that what I have been saying, for a fair comparison. I do understand your analogy on the different panels though; some will find the16ms S-IPS panel better for their needs and others will find the 8ms TN panels better for their particular needs.

Well, that is why I was playing Myth: The Fallen Lords and I downloaded the original Half-Life game to test out the monitor. In both games, I still experienced the same motion blurring. Plus, I played all the new games at lower resolutions with much improved frame rates with no improvement in the blurring. From everything I have read, motion blur and response time is unrelated to the actual screen resolution (just image quality is).

This LCD needs to be ran @ its native resolution of 1600x1200 in DVI and all games ran @ 1600x1200 to get the full benefits of this LCD. The most important thing is a "GPU" and "CPU" that can keep the “FPS contestant” above “60 FPS”, then we can talk about motion blur if there is any and or how much is noticed, because I don’t notice motion blur on my VP201s like you do, its almost undetectable.

Untrue... the only 4ms panel out there right now is the Viewsonic VX924 and it is worse for gaming compared to other 8ms gaming LCDs out there. Plus, if you look at the votes on the top of the page, most people have recommended gaming on a larger but slower panel. This is "exactly" the reason I started this thread... because its unclear what the "Best Gaming LCD" truly is.
I also voted for the 16ms 20” panel and there truly is no “Best Gaming LCD” there are only some “Good Gaming LCD’s” on the market.

I have read a few reviews that say the ViewSonic VX924 is outstanding for gaming. Where did you get your sources that say its worse than a 8ms panel?

Statement from Hardwarezone.com on the ViewSonic VX924 LCD with a 4ms panel:
Source: http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?cid=1&id=1529&pg=5

Quote:
Gaming Performance:
“Although we updated our video playback selection with newer HD video, our gaming evaluation will continue to use the tried and true Quake III Arena. Focusing more towards panel performance in fast paced gaming, this game fulfills the role perfectly. Firing up Q3DM17, a sharper texture quality on the map was immediately noticeable. Texture and image clarity on the VX924 was quite simply amazing. This seemed to be an area the VX924 consistently performed very well. Game play performance couldn't have been smoother as well. Similar to the video tests, there was absolutely no noticeable ghosting or trailing”.

"Since the BenQ FP91V+ is the only other GTG timing monitor we have previously tested, direct comparisons are inevitable. If there is one thing to note, it is the fact that we were unable to discern any further performance gains the VX924 had over the FP91V+, both in video and gaming tests. However, the FP91V+ would occasionally display a slight skip, which we attributed to the high 12ms typical response time being unable to keep up. With a nearly universal response time, the ViewSonic VX924 didn't exhibit this anomaly at all”.

DVI input Performance:
“After completing our first set of tests, we hooked up the DVI input for a quality comparison. In most of the monitors we've tested, DVI input usually offer minute improvements if the monitor had a decent analog signal. With the VX924, our results were quite different. Contrast scales seem to balance out better, as the 256 Intensity Color Level Ramp test of DisplayMate showed a much more uniform ramp along the spectrum. Colors also seemed more focus, slightly reducing screen uniformity problems. There was one minor drawback to the use of DVI though, as we noticed a minute decrease in its ability to render the darkest black levels. Users have no need for concern however, since the difference was only a minute two index points on the DisplayMate Dark Gray Scale test. Video playback and gaming suffered no noticeable loss of detail”.

Statement from ATP at “The definitive LCD thread” about DVI:
“Based on my experience with the 2000fp and the 2001fp, I recommend using DVI. The difference at 1600x1200 was quite visible to me”.

Well, I agree that in terms of resolution the 8-bit panels are better than 6-bit panels (since all gaming 6-bit panels are 1280x1024) with respect to quality. However, in terms of colour quality, there isn't really and discernable difference in gaming from an 8-bit or 6-bit platform from what I've read. The difference is moreso for DVD/video playback, photos and graphics editing.
All I know is that I would rather have a panel that is capable of 16.7Million colors than a panel that can only reproduce 262,000 colors, that’s just my choice though.

Anyways, despite debating with you on these issues Necromonger, I still highly respect your opinion. What do you think are the best gaming LCDs... particularly after reading some of the "definite LCD thread"... keeping in mind two 7800 GTXs in SLI?
It seems their are many satisfied customers using the Dell 2001FP and the VP201, I think these LCD’s would probably be your best solution for your dual 7800’s, but then again there are other users satisfied with the 2005FPW and the 2405FPW. Its also about your rig having the latest technology, I know it’s a tough decision, but its one you must do on your own, I would test drive each one and then you’ll know which one will work best on your new rig. Salahuddin, have a great vacation; I bet it is a hot one down in Florida.

Salahuddin

07-21-2005, 05:38 PM

I have read a few reviews that say the ViewSonic VX924 is outstanding for gaming. Where did you get your sources that say its worse than a 8ms panel?

I read that review from the Hardwarezone.com as well. The more negative reviews I read on the VX924 were from Tom's Hardware and BeHardware:

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/display/20050602/

http://www.behardware.com/articles/572-12/19-lcd-monitor-survey-4-8-ms-tn-ips-va.html

Tom's Hardware even has a complete response time panel across all frequencies, which show that it is worse than the better 8ms panels out there. I also am starting to like BeHardware a lot because they seem to have great knowledge of LCDs and are picky gamers at heart (like me :D).

It seems their are many satisfied customers using the Dell 2001FP and the VP201, I think these LCD’s would probably be your best solution for your dual 7800’s, but then again there are other users satisfied with the 2005FPW and the 2405FPW. Its also about your rig having the latest technology, I know it’s a tough decision, but its one you must do on your own, I would test drive each one and then you’ll know which one will work best on your new rig.

I agree Necromonger. I don't think I can make this decision without testing, since the differences between monitors are subjectively valued. For me, being a picky gamer, response time I think is the most important factor for me... above image quality and colour capabilities. The Viewsonic VP2000s is a great monitor, and if I had it for my rig, I wouldn't be disappointed. The motion blur is distasteful for me, but it didn't really interfere in my gaming, and the more I played, the less I noticed it. And, I think for many people with LCDs, they can't perceive the motion blurring unless you fresh come off a CRT or have one to compare to directly. The motion blurring is there, but its significance is different for different people.

In the end, I'll get an 8ms panel only if I notice a significant difference in blurring... if the difference is non-existent or only minor, I'll likely go for the VP2000s or similar 20+ inch panel.

Salahuddin, have a great vacation; I bet it is a hot one down in Florida.

Thanks a lot Necro... its much appreciated! It sure is sizzling hot down here. My brother went surfing yesterday and he came back sun burnt head to waist. My wife and I barely managed to survive Magic Kingdom and Universal Studios over the last two days. The good thing is everyone uses air conditioning here like no tomorrow... so when you can't take the heat, you run indoors and revitalize yourself ;). Anyways, thanks again Necro... take care.

s0ulfly

07-22-2005, 03:47 AM

im getting a nice widescreen dell lcd, ill be using it for gamming and work cuz my p95f+b is killing my eyes :( and i cant realy see ghosting on the dell atleast in the games i play

Salahuddin

07-22-2005, 05:17 AM

im getting a nice widescreen dell lcd, ill be using it for gamming and work cuz my p95f+b is killing my eyes :( and i cant realy see ghosting on the dell atleast in the games i play

Well, I think you raise a couple of issues here that might benefit from being clarified. I read your post in the "Best Gaming LCD" thread as well... and you mentioned you had only a "little" ghosting in UT2K4 with the Dell 2005FPW. However, "ghosting" and "motion blur" are different things even though they are both caused by the same phenomenon of delayed response times:

Ghosting: This effect is also known as "trailing" and can be thought of as a very severe form of motion blur. It essentially involves a dark ghost like figure or image following directly behind a moving image because the response time is not fast enough to update the screen. If you notice ghosting on an LCD, I would personally argue that the response time on such a screen is poor for gaming because it suggests that motion blur would certainly be an issue with this monitor. On the VP2000s that I tested, which is a 16ms S-IPS screen similar to the Dell 2001FP and 2005FPW, I NEVER noticed any ghosting in the games I played on it... although I did not play UT2K4 on it (which is probably a faster game than any that I tested).

Motion Blur: Motion blur can be thought of as a less severe form of ghosting. ALL LCDs, even the fastest ones, will cause motion blur. Anyone viewing a game like UT2K4 on BOTH an LCD and CRT at the same time will see this. At the same time, an LCD screen may have such a fast response time as to prevent ghosting, but no LCD yet has a fast enough response time to totally prevent motion blur (actually even CRTs exhibit motion blur slightly with very fast moving images if you know how to look for it... so if someone says they don't notice ANY motion blur on their LCDs simply aren't paying attention to it). Motion blur involves textures blurring as images move on the screen... however, since the screen updates quickly, the delay in response time may not be great enough to cause ghosting. The issue with current monitors is not really whether they cause ghosting or not, but how much motion blur they exhibit.

Bottom Line "Ghosting" is a severe form of "motion blur." If a monitor exhibits "ghosting" it will certainly exhibit "motion blur." In today's generation of top gaming LCD panels, it is generally unacceptable for most gamers to have a screen that "ghosts." The issue now is how bad the "motion blur" on the different panels are.

Some people might not notice or care about "motion blur," only "ghosting." Others, like myself, may be sensitive to both.