Singel stage project, trying to hit -70

[Snowman89]

okey this will be my first project but im still ust planning it, first im thinking of water cooling the "heater" (dunno what its called in english, kondensor in swedish) that should give a lower and more stable idle/load, right?
good/bad things about it?
yeah sure you need to cool the water to but ......

how big is the diffrent between R22 and R407C?
and then between R404A and R407C?

and wheres the formel to calculate the cappillary tubeing?

[kayl]

wont be able to hit -70c idle on a computer.
maybe noload just bare evap.

kondensor= condenser english basically the same.

:google:
http://www.dupont.com/suva/na/usa/products/407c.html


for capillary line try about 92" 0.028" and should be close to what we need for cpus at high load

[gclg2000]

ya no -70. Ditto on what kayl said.

502 and all the replacements for it are fine.

[Snowman89]

wont be able to hit -70c idle on a computer.
maybe noload just bare evap.

kondensor= condenser english basically the same.

:google:
http://www.dupont.com/suva/na/usa/products/407c.html


for capillary line try about 92" 0.028" and should be close to what we need for cpus at high load
yeah ofcourse no load :D

my goals will be
1.Get it to work
2.Hit -50 noload
3.tune it to -50 load
4.try to hit -70 noload on evap.


what whit 502 that you wrote?
no other commenst on the water cooling part etc i wrote about, or about the gases?

[SlackeR]

Water cooling condensor wont work well.
As you said you have to cool the water. so you can only move the fans that way.
Actually it would give worse performance as you have more exchanges of heat going on:
refrigerant -> metal -> water -> metal -> air
opposed to:
refrigerant -> metal -> air
see? ;)

[Snowman89]

Water cooling condensor wont work well.
As you said you have to cool the water. so you can only move the fans that way.
Actually it would give worse performance as you have more exchanges of heat going on:
refrigerant -> metal -> water -> metal -> air
opposed to:
refrigerant -> metal -> air
see? ;)
yeah but will ust test if it works well with water from the hmm hose ouhh dunno what its called :D from the wall yeah maybe you understand :D
but shouldnt that atleast stabilize the load temps?

[runmc]

"You Kain't Touch That" :pimp:

Break it Down :guitar: :guitar: - Hammer Time :party3: :party3:

[Snowman89]

"You Kain't Touch That" :pimp:

Break it Down :guitar: :guitar: - Hammer Time :party3: :party3:
okey cmon, prolly cant but still first project gotta put goals high for this one, im on work practice from school now this week with a ac engineer so it seems really good, the sam guy that regased my vapo se to XE with 134-->404

please answer my questions and clear my ? out

[Thorry]

What sort of gas do you want to use to get @ -70... that's like hard.

Also watercooling the condensor doesn't seem like a smart thing to do. Just get a bigger condensor if you think you need to lose more heat.

[kayl]

you could water cool a condenser if it was too small to squeese alittle more out of it.
or just use the correct size condenser, the small 120mm fan size condenser work fine.
these days every man and his dog can make a phase change clone nice n small to fit under a tower with ok temps.

[gclg2000]

The Answer:

You won't get to -70. Watercooling the condenser is fine if you wish, but is not neccessary for these small systems we use. Water cooling is more effecient than air, but a waste of time i think for a small system like this, especially a single stage.

Your only going to get the liquid line to ambient on paper no matter if you use water or air.

Stick with the normal techniques. If you want -50 loaded, then get a big ole' compressor and go from there.

[Snowman89]

The Answer:

You won't get to -70. Watercooling the condenser is fine if you wish, but is not neccessary for these small systems we use. Water cooling is more effecient than air, but a waste of time i think for a small system like this, especially a single stage.

Your only going to get the liquid line to ambient on paper no matter if you use water or air.

Stick with the normal techniques. If you want -50 loaded, then get a big ole' compressor and go from there.
yeah yeah said that some post above, ust aiming high, will prolly ust get maybe -50 unloaded, but how low temp to get with r404?

please post the fomula to calculate the capillary tubing

[kayl]

The Answer:

You won't get to -70.
Stick with the normal techniques. If you want -50 loaded, then get a big ole' compressor and go from there.



i got -66c on r290 single noload and seen a few member do -70c with r404a. so possible with r407c.
but as gclg2000 you should be able to hit -50c noload with any compressor.
1/3Hp compressor is a good size mid -40s
1/2 closer to -50s and 1Hp load -50c load should be easy.

[Snowman89]

i got -66c on r290 single noload and seen a few member do it with r404a. so possible with r407c.
but as gclg2000 you should be able to hit -50c noload with any compressor.
1/3Hp compressor is a good size mid -40s
1/2 closer to -50s and 1Hp load -50c load should be easy.

okey now im starting to think i screwed up, 407 is a replacement for r22 right? if not i mean r417

[kayl]

yeah r407c is a replacement for r22
r407c has a boiling point of -43.9 so better than r22 and r290 but not as good as r404a.
so you will need to run 6-8Hg to get -50c noload pritty easy, load will take a larger compressor and good tunning.

[Ssilencer]

Nobody has a -50c load single stage
What's the catch to get -70 no load? a pic?
Oh the great expectations of the youth... :D
I'm old :(

[Snowman89]

Nobody has a -50c load single stage
What's the catch to get -70 no load? a pic?
Oh the great expectations of the youth... :D
I'm old :(
i said i took that as a goal beacause i know i wont hit it and then i wont be satisfied with it until i reached it.

i used 70G to a vappochill se to xe and got -47C noload on evap temp then with 5c room temp but still, and the loading differs on all setups because of the size?

please need the calculation for capillary tubings!!
pls post it or link it!



edit: read about some guy with a mach 1 or 2 that changed condensor, evap, cap tubing and regased it and reached something like -70

[gclg2000]

There isn't really any "formula", we thank the trial and error's of Chilly and other's who pioneered this stuff to find out that using 93" of 0.028" cap tube is the best for 404a and etc....now we can help you convert a different size cap tube to be the equivalent of 93" of 0.028", but there isn't a real "formula" so to speak....although Gary and other's have tried to make a general one.

[Snowman89]

There isn't really any "formula", we thank the trial and error's of Chilly and other's who pioneered this stuff to find out that using 93" of 0.028" cap tube is the best for 404a and etc....now we can help you convert a different size cap tube to be the equivalent of 93" of 0.028", but there isn't a real "formula" so to speak....although Gary and other's have tried to make a general one.
okey will check that later, will prolly use it to a gpu annd im gonna prolly configure it to 170-200w load

[gclg2000]

Your also going to get a variety of opinions on all of this, including what size cap tube to use. You just have to start tinkering and learn, and then apply what other's say and suggest and combine that with what you have found to work best.

[Frost_Bite]

I think -70C no load is very possible. My old Baker R22 unit would easily pull from -68C to -71C with moderate ambient temps. It used a large rotary compressor, and was not suited for 24/7 use, but it could pull very low temps.

Good Luck with your project!

http://virtual-octane.net/cooler/temp2.JPG

[runmc]

I think -70C is possible with a low enough vacuum. I have reached -70C once before with r507 and a good size rotary ( and maybe a dash of r1150 thrown in). :nono:

This was just my song bro. :woot:

"You Kain't Touch That" :pimp:

Break it Down :guitar: :guitar: - Hammer Time :party3: :party3:

[berkut]

Actually my cascade's first stage can go down to over -70C with a R22 and R290 blend. No special tuning needed.

[gclg2000]

Actually my cascade's first stage can go down to over -70C with a R22 and R290 blend. No special tuning needed.

What kinda load temps did that 1st stage hold Berkut?

[berkut]

it holds -35C HEAVY (and i mean heavy) load to -50C with a light load. Averages at about -40 to -45C

[gclg2000]

cool, bbq or purified 290?

[berkut]

brenzomatic that comes in blue cans

[Rauf]

good luck snowman :toast:
but don't expect too much, get it to work first ;)

[wdrzal]

look at the capicity of different refrigerants,some have more capicity than others.The boiling point is what most people refer to here but capicity(heat content) per pound matters too.

[Snowman89]

good luck snowman :toast:
but don't expect too much, get it to work first ;)
yeah thats 1st prirority :) going to look for a comp today

[Epsilon]

If you want -70 unloaded
go for rotary's ;)
but they are hard to find in Sweden

[Snowman89]

how about a 3/4hp r134 (will try with r404) CAJ4492Y from L´UNITE HERMETIQUE?

[Epsilon]

you probably can't pull the vacuum u need with that compressor.

stop aiming at unloaded temps, they do not say anything...

[smurfmods]

Is there a reason your after unloaded temps? The unloaded temps will not give you a good indication of what temp your system will run with a load. The pros around here tune a system with a OC CPU or a homemade load tester.

[Snowman89]

you probably can't pull the vacuum u need with that compressor.

stop aiming at unloaded temps, they do not say anything...
look now im ust looking for a comp that should do it, so now im ust looking for good load temps not unloaded, ust wonder if the comp would work and if it would work well?

[wdrzal]

isn't the contest for lowest temp,un-loaded. i agree they don't mean much but how would everyone come up with a equal load to be fair?

[Snowman89]

isn't the contest for lowest temp,un-loaded. i agree they don't mean much but how would everyone come up with a equal load to be fair?
yeah sure, but right now im ust looking for your opionons about the comp that i posted a few post abowe

[Pandrone]

Rotary's are kinda easy to find here too, i think they are easy to find everywhere in our little world, almost every ac/heatpump unit uses them.

Snowman, go take a look at your local refrigerationshop and ask them if they have some old heatpumps you could pick some parts from :).

I scored 4 rotary's from my local dealer when i had 3weeks of work there :), haven't tried them though..

// This forum has changed quite a bit since last i visited. Nice to see you all again.

[hatemi]

Welcome back Tomi:)

[Snowman89]

Rotary's are kinda easy to find here too, i think they are easy to find everywhere in our little world, almost every ac/heatpump unit uses them.

Snowman, go take a look at your local refrigerationshop and ask them if they have some old heatpumps you could pick some parts from :).

I scored 4 rotary's from my local dealer when i had 3weeks of work there :), haven't tried them though..

// This forum has changed quite a bit since last i visited. Nice to see you all again.
lol, it ust hit me, monday last week i exchanged a heat pump with a rotary :slap:

but what about the comp wrote about?
good/bad?

[Snowman89]

okey, someone said something about that i wouldnt be able to get vaccum with that comp, why?
then i got this question and i dont know the answer, if the comp is to big for the heatload will the floating coolant that goes into the evap not condensate and then go back to the comp as floating coolant?

that comp should be able to hit som nice load temps, or?

[Snowman89]

setting you'r 1st goal so high is a very bad move..you would have been better off saying you wanted to try a -40c unit 1st then move on to that pointless -70c 1 compressor unloaded goal..

you would have to be pulling a huge vac to reach -70c unloaded.
okey now im starting to get pissed, wtf is wrong with you people? stop complaining and ust answer my questions???

[smurfmods]

okey now im starting to get pissed, wtf is wrong with you people? stop complaining and ust answer my questions???


Hey don't get pissed. :upset: We are trying to help. Just hard to understand your motivation for going for such a high unloaded temp on your first try. :slap:

The compresser will not be too big. Even with the largest compressers it will be hard to pull a good enough vaccum to hit -70. It's possible, just hard to do. I'm still pretty new at this, if i'm wrong somebody let me know. :bs:

[kayl]

okey now im starting to get pissed, wtf is wrong with you people? stop complaining and ust answer my questions???


all you questions were answered on the first page of this thread. :stick:

now we are waiting for you to meet the thread title and your goals stated.





my goals will be
1.Get it to work
2.Hit -50 noload
3.tune it to -50 load
4.try to hit -70 noload on evap.




okey, someone said something about that i wouldnt be able to get vaccum with that comp, why?
then i got this question and i dont know the answer, if the comp is to big for the heatload will the floating coolant that goes into the evap not condensate and then go back to the comp as floating coolant?

that comp should be able to hit som nice load temps, or?

to reach -70c there will little to no gas in the phase change system and it wont handle any load at all with this amount of gas in the system.
so dont worry about flood back to the compressor worry about the compressor overheating due to running too low vacuum.

[smurfmods]

Thanks for clearing that up for me kayl. I guess I was a little bit right.

:idea: That makes more sense to me know why people go for bigger compressers. More gas=more capacity for load. Not really lower temps. If you are overclocking a super hot Prescott a large rotary would be benificial. If you are overclocking a athlon xp or low end amd 64 a larger rotary wouldn't get you any colder or help much with the load. A smaller hermetic would work ok. That's how the prommie mach systems got away with a smaller systems?

[Snowman89]

all you questions were answered on the first page of this thread. :stick:

now we are waiting for you to meet the thread title and your goals stated.







to reach -70c there will little to no gas in the phase change system and it wont handle any load at all with this amount of gas in the system.
so dont worry about flood back to the compressor worry about the compressor overheating due to running too low vacuum.
okey thanks!
so theres no bad thing about choosing that comp?
ust looking for a cheap evap now to buy before i but the comp :p:

edit: the baker evap, how good is it?
does the 9800pro edition fit a x800/850 serie?
any one knows if he still sells it on his website or if its ust not updated?

edit: maybe a really stupid question but.., how to connect the 2 lines to the block, on http://www.xtwerkz.com/baker_gpu_blocks.htm

[smurfmods]

The baker block works pretty good. There are some better designs out there that are easier to assemble. Find out some more info on xtremeresources. It's kind of a pain because the cap tube has to run through the center. Cap tube is easy to melt closed. It will block your gas and ruin your day. Happens to me a lot. Chilly1 design keeps it a bit simpler.

[Snowman89]

The baker block works pretty good. There are some better designs out there that are easier to assemble. Find out some more info on xtremeresources. It's kind of a pain because the cap tube has to run through the center. Cap tube is easy to melt closed. It will block your gas and ruin your day. Happens to me a lot. Chilly1 design keeps it a bit simpler.
yeah but the chilly1 design is to expensiv for me, so i will try searching for another alternative for the evap

[smurfmods]

A design that worked well for me (after some trial and error) is the copper cap design. It's become known now as the Lardarse Evap. It can be adapted to GPU or CPU use. He has a howto on vrzone in the guides and there is some folks around here that can help with it. It's pretty easy to make and it's very cheap. You can buy the little copper caps at your local hardware store. I did have some difficulty finding a good thick copper base locally. Best place to get that is onlinemetals.com

I made up a picture to help explain it.

[urbanfox]

The compresser will not be too big. Even with the largest compressers it will be hard to pull a good enough vaccum to hit -70. It's possible, just hard to do. I'm still pretty new at this, if i'm wrong somebody let me know. :bs:

It's more than possible to hit that with one compressor, it will just cost you months of pay.

[smurfmods]

It's more than possible to hit that with one compressor, it will just cost you months of pay.

So everyone says it's certainly possible, just not really worth it. Maybe for braggin rights. "My phase change does -70! HAHA. :p: Oh yeah, well what about loaded? Oh well uh umm.... -5 loaded because it has .005 ounces of gas." :cheer:

What's the highest you can reasonably get loaded? With a overclocked amd 64? I would guess ~ -50 would be pretty good with some 507 or 404a. -45 with R290.

Nobody said anything about my picture yet. :shrug: I wuz kinda proud of it.

[Sneil]

autocascade are like around -55c loaded i think... ?
nice pic :p:

[Snowman89]

So everyone says it's certainly possible, just not really worth it. Maybe for braggin rights. "My phase change does -70! HAHA. :p: Oh yeah, well what about loaded? Oh well uh umm.... -5 loaded because it has .005 ounces of gas." :cheer:

What's the highest you can reasonably get loaded? With a overclocked amd 64? I would guess ~ -50 would be pretty good with some 507 or 404a. -45 with R290.

Nobody said anything about my picture yet. :shrug: I wuz kinda proud of it.
heh yeah thats right, nice pic but cant find the guid how to build one on vrzone, i know someone who can make me a evap but then i need a good drawing and the copper, so please post as much information!

edit: yeah if im really optimistic i think -40 to -50 is within range if i get a good evap

[Sneil]

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=62825
try this simple evap. noob's mod looks prett good

[smurfmods]

That design may be better. It's a little hard to understand from a 2d picture. Nobody has posted a picture of what it's supposed to look like. How would you mount it.

BTW Here's the link for the VRZONE guide http://www.vr-zone.com/index.cgi?i=1227&s=2

[n00b 0f l337]

My design is nice. :) For mounting, you insulate up your block and all, and then cut an acryllic or wood peice to size, and drill holes in it for mounting equipment.

[smurfmods]

My design is nice. :) For mounting, you insulate up your block and all, and then cut an acryllic or wood peice to size, and drill holes in it for mounting equipment.


I'm having some trouble trying to visualize what this will look like. How about a 3d drawing or something?? Where do the cap tube and suction go??
BTW posted this Question in the other thread too.

If this works better than the copper cap, I'm all for it. :toast:

[ellsworth]

A design that worked well for me (after some trial and error) is the copper cap design. It's become known now as the Lardarse Evap. It can be adapted to GPU or CPU use. He has a howto on vrzone in the guides and there is some folks around here that can help with it. It's pretty easy to make and it's very cheap. You can buy the little copper caps at your local hardware store. I did have some difficulty finding a good thick copper base locally. Best place to get that is onlinemetals.com

I made up a picture to help explain it.

i built that exact evap back in 2003 :D
it leaked like a faucet so i tossed it. ill probably make a new one soon and test it out...hopefully milled this time.

[Sneil]

I'm having some trouble trying to visualize what this will look like. How about a 3d drawing or something?? Where do the cap tube and suction go??
BTW posted this Question in the other thread too.

If this works better than the copper cap, I'm all for it. :toast:
here's a bad 3d image of noob's fugger evap mod, but you get the picture. i hope...

that cap in cap design looks really good too. probably cheaper then a copper block?

[smurfmods]

here's a bad 3d image of noob's fugger evap mod, but you get the picture. i hope...

that cap in cap design looks really good too. probably cheaper then a copper block?

*Thats better* EXCELLENT. Exactly what I needed. Now I get it. :dammit: that's a nice block. Super easy!

*Edited by Pythagoras: No need for expletives :censored:

Sorry about the cursing. Wasn't trying to be "cool" Just wuz excited to realize what it looked like. The :idea: turn on.

[wdrzal]

just drill holes and thread for extra surface area.

swearing isn't "Cool"

[Snowman89]

here's a bad 3d image of noob's fugger evap mod, but you get the picture. i hope...

that cap in cap design looks really good too. probably cheaper then a copper block?
cheaper than a copper block, isnt that a copper block?
then i cant really understand the picture so the evap will be like a book, i mean the shape of a book and then put the "back side" of it to the gpu/cpu?

[Sneil]

sorry talking about smurfmod's pic

[smurfmods]

We kinda have 2 threads going about the same thing now... Now that we figured out a good easy to build block, we may need to get back on track to help Snowman89.

Were are you at so far Snowman89? Have you purchased or built anything yet? What else to you have questions about?

[Snowman89]

We kinda have 2 threads going about the same thing now... Now that we figured out a good easy to build block, we may need to get back on track to help Snowman89.

Were are you at so far Snowman89? Have you purchased or built anything yet? What else to you have questions about?
ohh well i havent purchased anything yet need to find a evap first, then i cant really understand the picture so the evap will be like a book, i mean the shape of a book and then put the "back side" of it to the gpu/cpu?
then i was talking about the fugger evap, the evap you did is very look alike to the baker block so i dont like the 2 tubes going into each other

[kayl]

one reason why i wouldnt bother about trying to get lowest temps
is that the temp gauges are expensive
afer -50c ya need the expensive ones.
you only need one when doing cascades, as a single that does below -50c is really really rear unless its for a gpu cooler.

[Snowman89]

one reason why i wouldnt bother about trying to get lowest temps
is that the temp gauges are expensive
afer -50c ya need the expensive ones.
you only need one when doing cascades, as a single that does below -50c is really really rear unless its for a gpu cooler.
temp gauges?

[Sneil]

digital thermometers.

do you not understand this evap? its pretty simple, a copper block with drilled out holes. not sure what you meant by a book type evap. ?

[Snowman89]

digital thermometers.

do you not understand this evap? its pretty simple, a copper block with drilled out holes. not sure what you meant by a book type evap. ?
okey, well i cant understand what side of the evap that would cool the gpu/cpu, if the "tubings" comes out on the side if you would use it as a cpuevap

[Sneil]

doesn't matter, just bend the tubes upward for the cpu. would make a nice gpu evap also

[Snowman89]

doesn't matter, just bend the tubes upward for the cpu. would make a nice gpu evap also
yeah ust realizied that when i wrote the last post :)