need help with WC for a dual opteron system!

[dsecrieru]

First of all hello to all, as this is my first post on this board.

Second, I'd like to mention that my experience with WC is null. I've read the guides on this forums and some threads and posts, but that pretty much sums it up. So I'm hoping some of the very experienced people on this board will be able to help me.

In the near future I plan to build a new rig, intended for rendering and gaming. I opted for dual opteron with sli. Configuration will include two middle-ranged opterons and two 6800 gt. Case will most probably be a lian li v2100b.

Yes, I'd like to WC this rig :). I'd like to OC a little (10-15%), probably both CPUs and GPUs, if possible, but that's it, nothing extreme. Also noise is a big issue. I want a rig as quiet as possible.

So, what would you guys suggest? I'm not even sure if one circuit is enough, I'll probably need two. Also, I need help choosing the parts starting with which blocks and ending with tubing & smallest components.

So please let me know what would you use for this rig. ;)

tnx,
Daniel.

[MaxxxRacer]

Welcome to XtremeSystems Daniel.

Sounds like a sweet system.

To go through all of hte components and still keep good flow you'll need a decently powerfull pump. Though im guessing you dont want a monstrosity like the iwakis.

For radiator i would go with the black ice pro3 from hwlabs. its very long and will accomdate 3 fans per side. its thinner so it allows you to use low pressure fans and still keep ur cooling performance up, which means less noise.

For the blocks, i would go with two Danger Den maze4's for the gpu's and a Swiftech MCW6002 for the cpu block.

If you want to run with 3/8 tubing instead of 1/2inch then switch the cpu block out for a MCW6000 and keep hte maze4's and the rad using 1/2inch tubing.

For the pump i would go with a AquaExtreme 50Z from www.cooltechnica.com. It is a very powerful and compact pump with low noise output.

And last but not least, I get a reservoir (your choice really) and have it placed next to the pump.

I have a little diagram that i used for my setup that iwll give you an idea. the blue is the reservoir, green is hte pump (the pump i suggetested is 1/4 that size), black thing is teh radiator (yorus will be thinner but longer) and the pink is the tubing.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27821

[dsecrieru]

Hi Max!

Thanks for your quick and detailed answer!

Some questions:

1. any reasons why I shouldn't use 1/2 tubing?

2. I assume from your sketch that the radiator is placed at the top of the case, inside, right? How do I attach it to the top? Do I need to mod the case?

3. I'd appreciate if you could remake the sketch taking the 2nd cpu and the 2nd gpu into account. I suspect how it should look like, but I won't mind your opinion :D.

4. isn't a good idea to place the pump also somewhere in the 5 1/2 drive bays area (below the reservoir) or at the bottom of the case (I'll only need one array of harddisk bays, so I'll remove one)?

5. on the link you gave me for the pump, I found 4 types of that pump, depending on the inlet/outlet type. I'm a complete noob, which one do I need? :)

I want to first order the pieces and experiment on my older linux box (a celeron machine). I'll probably need more help then so it's ok if I PM you for installation details then? Could be a couple of months from now, not sure exactly when...

[idleuser]

dsecrieru, you should always opt for 1/2 tubing if you can... but seeing how tight space is with the v2100b it might be an issue with 4 blocks. I would highly suggest going with the swiftech mcw 6000 and then getting 2 maze4 gpu blocks because of the low restriction and preformance of these 2 blocks.

[dsecrieru]

You suggest those blocks to be used with 3/8 tubing?

I'm also open to suggestions for other cases more suited for this monster water cooling rig :).

[MaxxxRacer]

oh i forgot your going to be cooling 4 components. In that case if you can i would suggest using daul pumps. its expensive but it will work well.

Considering all of the comonents it would be wise to go with 3/8 tubing. I normally never sugges this but the bends for the 1/2inch and the amount you will have will be high so it will make a mess.

But as i said i suggest you go with 1/2inch fittings on everything but the cpu blocks. this way you wont loose flow on the fittings. you just need to strectch the tubing over the fittings which isnt hard relaly.

For the radiator you will need to cut 3 fan holes in the cieling of it. so thats 3 120mm holes.

And the pumps/pump will go on the floor of hte second level. the res will go in the bottom 5inch bay and right behind this the pump will pick up the water. you only want about an inch or less of tubing between the res and the pump. as little as possible. infact i would suggest 1/2inch tubing between the res and pump, and the radiator and res, as both of these will not have to make sharp bends.

[dsecrieru]

Whoa, so much information for a newbie like me! :)

So, should I use two AquaExtreme 50Z?

I hope I'm not pushing it, but if you have time could you please make a new sketch? The 1st one was very helpful to visualize the whole setup. The motherboard will be a tyan k8we, if you need reference. Please don't forget to sketch both pumps and try to use different colors for different tubing. It would help a lot.

thanks,
Daniel.

[MaxxxRacer]

uh.. if i get a chance tonight i will do it...

[dsecrieru]

Awesome Max, can't wait for it! I love sketches! :D

One more thing to consider: I'm a little worried that the radiator on the top of the case could obstruct some PCI sound card that will go right at the bottom of the motherboard, ie top of the case. Is it thin enough or that could be a problem? One possible solution could be to install the radiator more in front, starting from inside the 5 1/2 drive bays.

Daniel.

[MaxxxRacer]

The rad is around 270mm long and the case is around 600mm deep so you have got alot of room to play with. but if you set it up with some 25mm fans and the the BIP it shouldnt be a problem.

[MaxxxRacer]

I just realized something. unless you have a PCIX sound card you wont be able to fit it because the only regular pci slot is between the video cards and you willl NEVEr be able to fit a soundcard between the two 6800's.


EDIT: here is that pic u wanted. what i did is have 2 outputs from the res with 1/2inch, two 50Z's (half inch fittings on them). each pumps pumps to one cpu and one gpu. they then collect in a 1/2inch y fitting after the two maze4's and then go into the rad. they come out of the rad and then go back into the res.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28138&stc=1

[dsecrieru]

It's starting to look good, thanks! :D

No worries, it will be a regular PCI sound card which, like I said, will go in the 1st PCI slot on the board, ie at the very top of the case.

Couple more questions:

1. are there any reservoirs with 2 outputs or do I need to mod a regular one?

2. I know that which reservoir I get is not important but is there a specific capacity I should be looking for, considering the heavy load I'll have? Is larger better or it doesn't matter?

3. Can't the pumps go to the bottom of the case? The place where you've sketched them will be quite busy with sata and power cables and whatnot. I'm also worried that in the future they might interfere with the memory banks, since there's two of them and one might have to be close to the motherboard. Another option could be to put the reservoir a little higher and try to squeeze the two pumps under it. What do you think?

Thanks a lot for the help, Max, I really appreaciate it! I'm looking forward to this project, seems to be promising a lot of fun! :D Still a couple of months to go, though...

Daniel.

[MaxxxRacer]

That spot is really the best place for the pumps. if you put them down below you will be adding alot of footage of useless tubing and you wil cause problems for yourself. i suppose you can move hte res up and have curved pieces of tubing going to the pumps. its not prefered but it will work.

capacity doesnt matter so much but i would go with a daul 5 inch bay.

[dsecrieru]

One more thing Maxxx. Do you think this setup could work with two G5 and two Maze4? Do I need more powerfull pumps? I know that the increase in performace might not be worth the heavy price tag, but damn, those G5 look so sweet! :D

thanks,
Daniel.

[MaxxxRacer]

well you could get decent flow with the 50z's.. not sure how good the flow would be but it would be acceptable..

[dsecrieru]

I was hoping you'll say otherwise. Damn, now I have to see where do I pull all that money from! :)

I don't see so many dual res with two outlets. What do you think of this one: Typhoon Dual 5.25" Bay Reservoir (http://www.frozencpu.com/ex-res-10.html)? Any better suggestions?

thanks,
Daniel.

[idleuser]

those reservoir are thick! :) I got one that i'm using but the caps are rather flimsy :(

[MaxxxRacer]

that one is of similar design and from the same company as my res. i can say that i really do like this res. very good quality imo.

well dsecrieru tbh its not worth using dual g5's in the opteron rig. you wont see the benefits from it like you would with a single cpu system with an iwaki pump.

[dsecrieru]

Yeah, I was already giving up on the idea, as they are two expensive to buy only based on looks :(. Any other better looking blocks that will do the job as good as mcw 6002? dd tdx maybe?

Isn't that res made of plexi? I though plexi was bad bad...

A question about installing the rad (btw, the BIP3 is 397mm deep, not 270 :)):
- do the fans stick out through the 3 120mm holes I'll make in the case, meaning that the rad will stick to the top of the case, so only 25mm thickness inside the case OR
- the holes are for ventilation only and the top of the fans will be at the same level as the case top, meaning I have rad + fans thickness == 50mm inside the case?

thanks,
Daniel.

[MaxxxRacer]

wierd. loooked on their site and it says 270.. thought it was a bit short. lol.

you can have it so that the fans are external or internal. its entirely up to you. it wil loook a bit more clean if they are inside but either way it will work.

just get teh 6002. no point in getting the TDX. it will perform worse with the pump you will be using. u need 2+gpm to get better performance from the TDX.

[dsecrieru]

We're talking about this one: Black Ice Pro III (http://www.hwlabs.com/products/blackicepro3.html) , right? Maybe you were looking at the BIP2, which is 277mm :).

I'll get the mcw 6002. It's not the best looking, but it's ok, I guess.

What about that res? Isn't it made of plexi? Isn't plexi bad?

About the rad installation, I'm really having a hard time deciding to make holes in a 300 euros case :). Is it possible to install it somehow outside the case and have the tubing go through a back slot? Are there any restrictions to the lenght of tubing going in/out of the rad?
Also, is the bottom of the rad supposed to be free, for ventilation, or can I place it on top of the case?

It would really help if someone has some pics with that rad installed. I could get some ideas about how to install it best.

thanks,
Daniel.

[idleuser]

dont worry about the reservoir and the plexi glass. these plexi glas are really thick! they wont crack at all... rumors about them being crack must be crazy! there are no way on earth that something that thick with cool water will crack -_-.

AS for the rad just make 3 blowholes trust me it's worth it and get a fangrill while you're at it.. dont cut it out to be the shape of the rad and then install the grill just make 3 circles as a blow hole like my configuration.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/spyd3rman/Watercooled%20Project/Picture165.jpg

[Holst]

This is exactly how I would run it as well maxx.

Putting the res on top of the case will be the neatest way, but you can mount it outside the case if you want. You could even build a rad box for it, this might be quieter..




I just realized something. unless you have a PCIX sound card you wont be able to fit it because the only regular pci slot is between the video cards and you willl NEVEr be able to fit a soundcard between the two 6800's.


EDIT: here is that pic u wanted. what i did is have 2 outputs from the res with 1/2inch, two 50Z's (half inch fittings on them). each pumps pumps to one cpu and one gpu. they then collect in a 1/2inch y fitting after the two maze4's and then go into the rad. they come out of the rad and then go back into the res.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=28138&stc=1

[dsecrieru]

So, there's no restriction to the lenght of the tubing going to/from the rad? If it's a bit long, to accomodate the rad outside the case, won't that impede the flow?

I know that mounting the rad on top of the case might be the best solution, but I have never got dirty and always runned everything out of the box, so to speak. So, I'm a little bit afraid to dig 3 big blow holes in a 300 euros case :).

I'm also concerned (hard to say for sure until I have the rad and the case) that mounting the rad inside along with the fans on top of it will create problems with the sound card. That remains to be seen.

Are those fan grils available for sale somewhere or do I have to carve them with my bare hands as well? :D

Daniel.

[idleuser]

you're from germany right? you can get those from aqua-computer http://www.aqua-computer.de/ or just locate a vendor that carries them. Btw, the grill does not fit any other rads unless you modify it... to do this all you need to do is drilled the 8 holes bigger on the grill to slide the standard case fan screws :) very easy thing to do.

[MaxxxRacer]

dsecieru, the longer the tubing the more restriction you get. also having more turns and bends increase the restirction.

Thanks Holst, I actually came up with the semi-parallel idea while i was doing the drawing. it just made alot of sense to me.

[dsecrieru]

Thanks, found them! I would have an aquacomputer fan grill :). But wow, EU market is an entire different story than US. I can find my way around US water cooling components, but I have no idea about the ones in EU, lol :). Some blocks look really good, dunno about their performance.

Thanks for the advice Maxxx, I suspected that.

So, what about the bottom of the radiator? Does it have to be free for ventilation, or can I just drop the radiator on top of the case and make some holes to screw it in? Is it at all possible?

Daniel.

[MaxxxRacer]

both top and bottom of rad have to be free flowing..

[Master_G]

Argh, that's the grill i want, im stuck in the UK waiting for the only place to sell them to get them in stock.
Was supposed to be a week 2 weeks ago :rolleyes:

G

[dsecrieru]

Thanks for all the help guys! I think I'll go ahead and test a smaller version of the suggested setup on my celeron linux box :). I need to practice a little before playing with water and a multi-thousand box for the first time ;).

I'll come back to you, as for sure I'll need more help when I'll actually do it.

Daniel.

[dsecrieru]

Dang, forgot one question: do you guys know how many watts do one of those 50Z pumps pull? Deciding on a PSU for this monster is a hard enough job even without water cooling... :rolleyes:

[MaxxxRacer]

8 watts throughly... nothing worth writing home about.

[dsecrieru]

Hehe, k.

Some more issues came up, though. I've now read about this so called 'low flow' setups. Suposedly, they use turbulence to give better performance instead of high flow. Also suposedly, they are better suited for multi-block setups like mine. On top of that, it seems to be a trend in Europe and parts for such setups are more easy to come by here in Germany (http://www.aqua-computer.de/ for example).

But I value your opinion and I'd like to hear what you think about these 'low flow' setups.

Another thing, could you describe briefly what's involved in maintaining a running water cooled system?

thanks,
Daniel.

[dsecrieru]

Maxxx, will a BIX2 perform similar to a BIP3? I could sure use the saved space...

Also, is Blueline HD20 a better pump than the 50z?

[Rabidmoose171]

the rad wont fit in the top of your case,the sound card blocks it on the back, and its to wide to fit inbetween the drive bays.

\
actualy it might fit in between the drive bays, i just looked, itll be damn close though.

[dsecrieru]

I'm already leaning toward a Mountain Mods U2-UFO Cube case...

[MaxxxRacer]

BIX2 should perform similarly to a BIP3 IF larger 38mm thick fans are used on the BIX2 and thinner less powerful fans were used on the BIP3. if the same high power or low power fans were used it would not be a fair comparison.

the UFO cases are GREAT in my opinion. ive always wanted one and it was partially the basis for my custom case build. i highly suggest getting one. they are the perfect cases for watercooling and are great for daully boards.

the low flow trend is total carp. they are just using overly restrictive blocks that are poorly designed with unerpowered pumps claiming they are better when they just have their head in the sand. its really a lot of garbage. On a regular basis i have to break ppl of this habbit of thinking. it really does annoy me.

Now with that said there ARE some good blocks coming out of germany. the Nexxos XP is one of them. but by far most of the blocks are poorly designed and are not really to be used with weak pumps. the Nexxos XP being a great block is also NOT to be used with small pump. the block will peform well with a moderatly powered pump but the flowrates will be so low that most gpu blocks will be starved for water (as most are of higher flow low resistance designs that only start performing well at higher flow rates) and the radiator will not be in its peak perforamnce curve either.

ive noticed that most european watercoolers (not sterotyping here, this has been my personal experience) think that slow moving water cools better in the rad because it spends the more time in the radiator. well guess what. WRONG! . it may spend more time in each pass but if u double the flow the water will go around twice as fast spending half the time each time around. so ur time in radiator is ALWAYS the same independent of flow as long as there is flow.. this is ur net time i should say. for instance in one hour a particular particle will spend the same amount of time in the rad wheter the flow is .5gpm or 5gpm.


ok so i will stop rambling for now.

id say just run any info you see in the eu areana by XS for some fact checking.

ok so now that you think im an self centered egotistical a-hole american ill answer the other questiosn you had :p: :D

blueline HD20 is equivalent to a Iwaki MD20 (though quality is much less imho) and is about twice as powerful as a 50Z. i can atest to this as ive tested both the iwaki wmd20 and 50Z in my test setup.

once you setup ur cooling system there is about zero maintinence. this is assuming u set up everything correctly and used the right amount of racing coolant or other anti corrosion anti algae solution. if u did set up everything correctly you will just have to add a wee bit of water every once and a while and every once in a great while add some more coolant and or anti algae solution.

[dsecrieru]

Haha, no, I don't think you are an "self centered egotistical a-hole american" :).

Thanks for finally answering all my questions, you were busy and my thread got buried.

[MaxxxRacer]

yah i didnt see the questions to be honest. the thread just got unburried and i just saw it.

[amduser]

www.watercool.de, get there a rad you like, a lainq (*or two if u wanna go all mad*), two cpu blocks (*best stuff you'll get in germany*) and two blocks vor the northbridges (*they will be hot otherwise*). then a would admire a cape (*corp*) cooplex resevoir and two 6800 (*gt/ultra*) coolers you can get at www.alphacool.de . tubeing woundn't be that big then us style (*anyway it's not that usefull if some guys think (*there some physical rules, but who cares, hard to explane anyway for me on english, just read this (http://iva.uni-ulm.de/PHYSIK/VORLESUNG/fluidemedien/node26.html#SECTION00321100000000000000) and think then about it*)*). actuaaly there two ways to go, 10mm legris stuff and 10mm pun tubes or tygoon 11.3mm stuff and the fitting stuff for it. i would take tygoon at your place cause it is way easyer to handle it. destiled water you can by at your local supermarket or diy superstore and don'T forget some stuff counter !Korrusion" (*don't know english word vor it*). it you want to get some information about watercooling in german check out www.kaltmacher.de or www.hardwareluxx.de. www.watercoolplanet and http://www.hartware.de/review_472.html and decide then yourself what you want to get.

[n00b 0f l337]

Heh, I don't think that one BIX2 will hold 2 vga's and 2 cpu's.
I'd suggest also getting a 2 smaller 3.5" bay res's and putting it down by the hd' stuffs. Then mount a BIX3 on the top of case, and a BIX2 *underneath* the case, put holes thru the bottom of case and have fans on the inside of it. Make sure your case feet are big enough to elevate, so I'd recommend wheels, and make sure you use feet. Then loop it. For this though I'd run 3/8" on the VGA's using the mcp350, and the BIX2 on the underside. Run a mcp655 for the cpu's and the BIX3.

[dsecrieru]

Apparently, this board is also in need for some chipset cooling, as I heard they get quite hot. Problem is, it's a tight fit. Another option is to replace the :banana::banana::banana::banana:ty passive heatsinks that Tyan has put on with some active ones.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[amduser]

aktive cooling is not realy helpfull, so go for water. anyway i would go for a german system, because this is easier to handle if somethink brakes or somethink else happens. it really ist not nice to wait about 2month or more vor rma.

[MaxxxRacer]

watercooling the chipsets is HIGHLY not adviseable. a swiftech chipset heatsinks will do wonders for you if you are really worried about the chipset. and considering u said ur NOT going to oc it ur dont even need to upgrade the chipset cooling. under stock use the NB will have relatively high heat tollerances for heat.

anyway.

i really suggest that you just go with what I showed you before. the diagram that i did up a long time ago.

[n00b 0f l337]

If you ever watercool a NB i suggest also carving ur own block. A simple peice of copper with a path from corner to corner thats 1/2" ID. That way theres very little restriction while cooling at the same time.