Prometeia Technical Experiences that you wish to share with others

[DaGooch]

Let's try to keep a thread going with user's inputs on some experiences that would be beneficial for first time users and installations from the people that have been using the units for the last several months.

[JCviggen]

- you cant use too much sealstring
- DO be careful with that hose. Abuse it and it will break.
- pay attention to the orientation of the hose going into the block. On some mainboards its possible to end up with the evaporator upside down which brings down performance a bit and causes some unevaporated R134a flowing back, freezing the hose and creating a possible condensation issue
- you CAN program it in a way that the fan always stays at max speed, knocking a few degrees off your temps, but then the heating element will disabled and condensation WILL occur. Its ok for temporary benching but for 24/7 use, stay close to factory settings

thats all I can think of right now...

[DaGooch]

The below has helped several users with non boot issues and found by MrIcee:

These things draw some juice when starting up and can sometimes trip a safety circuit inside the Prom...unplug the Prom from the wall and hold the Power button in for 10 seconds. Plug the Prom back in and try it.

Also, if it's warm in the room the Prom is in...if it reaches 40c when starting up, it will autmatically shutdown, which will necessitate do the procedure above also

[JCviggen]

Another thingy, in a HOT room when the prom has been running and then shut down at high temps ... it sometimes will not start the compressor right away. It will start but without the compressor running . This is nothing really to worry about , after a little while the compressor will kick in. This can happen past 0C on the display though... I've had it up to like ... 20-30C before it started. This can lead to rather high CPU temps but it wont damage anything. I've had my P4 sitting up to about 80C and it just doesnt care ;)
If you want to overclock you better stop caring about things which would make the average user's face turn blue and yellow

[MrIcee]

I would like to add something that Gooch and I had come up in a discussion on the phone tonight - that MAY contribute to problems - we are not certain until somebody tries it


-- When hooking your connections to the motherboard ie: the reset switch, hard drive light et al....polarity of these connections MIGHT be an issue. It is definitely with the light connections and it might be wise if you are having "odd" start up problems that you might try flipping the reset plug and plugging it back in. The same goes for the power switch plug-in at the motherboard.

Food for thought.

--It is also not uncommon for these things in a warm room to hit 40c and shut down on start up. I had this happen this afternoon while Gooch and I were on the phone...its a safety feature. Let it set 10-20 seconds and power up again..the temps will immediately drop.

-- As JC stated, you can program it to have the fans run continuously which will sustain lower temps. Mine is set this way all the time tho I do not run 24/7....this is how I attain the low evap and cpu temps.

--You can also program it to "release" the motherboard to bootup later, at colder temps. I have done this also and set it to -36c from -33c for more successful booting at xtreme overclocks.

--If you are doing mega overclocking with high Vcore it is advisable to pick up the Power conditioner and install it. It prevents power to the CPU on start up...thus reducing temps to nil, allowing a reduction in start up time of 1-2 minutes. It will also allow the power user to bootup at higher than usual overclocks.

Randi:D

[Kunaak]

I have had endless problems with this thing, and it hasn't worked in 3 days...

some things I would have liked, a more details instruction book.

on the connections that go between the reset and power buttons, I woud have liked to see something to indicate positive and negative sides.

on a cosmetic note, besides the fact that the case is impossible to work with, so I just leave the side panel off 24 hours a day...
the lower front panel needs something to lock it into place.
mine just falls off, it has a slight notch it goes into, but this hardly secures it.

I really wish I can get this thing to work soon, I don't think I have ever been as mad as I have in the last 3 days. I am now to the point where I dread coming home, cause I know this thing is here and I am gonna try and fix it again, and nothing gonna be different and in the end, I am just gonna be tired, mad, and right back where I was before...

on a side note, the guys from chip-con are very quick to try to give help, just nothings worked yet...

[Kunaak]

well, now the prometeia has just fried my CPU.

XP 2700 is dead.
it's was always hard to get a clean contact with the CPU from the microfreezer, and now I just paid the price for it...

I wish I never heard of this thing...

[C3]

I'm sorry...
I felt like this last summer when I tried to install a Vapochill...
It fried a MoBo,a Athlon T'Bird 1,2GHz and a XP 1700+,finally I sold the XXXXXX Vapochill and bought a Prommy...

[sharpbw]

Nice thread guys. I have one coming this week, and looking forward to trying it out.

[JCviggen]

Kunaak,


Can you tell me what on earth you mean with +/- sides for the power and reset switch? I dont see how that matters at all. You do not need to plug in power or reset switches in any particular way... its a switch, not a LED. Polarity doesnt matter.

Sorry about your XP2700+ :( I had a feeling it was coming, with the board turning everything off in order not to fry the CPU... obviously it had enough now :(
Getting good contact can be a bit of a §§§§§ ... but you could have improvised a bit, personally I always cut (or reduce) the plastic stands on the bracket, which drops the evaporator 1-3 mm and ensures good contact. Yes I agree that the CPU kits are not always 100% good out of the factory :( Some work great first time, others are a nightmare to get contact with. Improvisation might have saved your CPU there.

All I can say is that the Vapochill is even a way bigger AMD killer ... I have heard of very few ppl to kill their Athlons in a Prometeia .... if there's no visual damage to your chip just send it in for RMA ?

cheers

[TheDude]

Thanks for the tips guys...mine just got dropped off...reading up some more before I install.:D

[Kunaak]

the guys at Chip-con gave me a piece of simple advice that really just stuck.

if you have a problem, just email them, and be patient, don't try to fix it yourself.

in my case, it was simply hard to get it to make full contact with the CPU, it always leaned to the left of the cpu, leaving the rightside un touched and in the end this is the side that burned out. the side that has a big gaping brown hole I mean...

[Its-Freezing]

Originally posted by MrIcee
-- When hooking your connections to the motherboard ie: the reset switch, hard drive light et al....polarity of these connections MIGHT be an issue. It is definitely with the light connections and it might be wise if you are having "odd" start up problems that you might try flipping the reset plug and plugging it back in. The same goes for the power switch plug-in at the motherboard.

Food for thought.

Sorry guys, this is really a dead end, at least in relation to the Power On/Off and Reset connections, they are only potential free relay operated switches, nothing more !


Originally posted by MrIcee
--It is also not uncommon for these things in a warm room to hit 40c and shut down on start up. I had this happen this afternoon while Gooch and I were on the phone...its a safety feature. Let it set 10-20 seconds and power up again..the temps will immediately drop.

Watch out for premature turning the power back on again. Better to wait at least 1 to 2 minutes, otherwise the differential pressure accross the compressor might be still too high for it to start, in which case you will end up seing Error 3 and 4, and having a very hot compressor instead.


Originally posted by MrIcee
-- As JC stated, you can program it to have the fans run continuously which will sustain lower temps. Mine is set this way all the time tho I do not run 24/7....this is how I attain the low evap and cpu temps.

Watch out for condensation here. Unless you do a H/W mod on the Prometeia (which will affect the warranty, sorry I have to mention this) the heating elements inside the Microfreezer will also be turned off, in which case you might risk outside condensation !!!


Originally posted by MrIcee
--You can also program it to "release" the motherboard to bootup later, at colder temps. I have done this also and set it to -36c from -33c for more successful booting at xtreme overclocks.

You can even go lower than this, as long as you remember to increase the hysteresis, so that it does not reset the system prematurely. There is a setting in the Chip-control to do this, and it is explained in the user manual under advanced users.


Originally posted by MrIcee
--If you are doing mega overclocking with high Vcore it is advisable to pick up the Power conditioner and install it. It prevents power to the CPU on start up...thus reducing temps to nil, allowing a reduction in start up time of 1-2 minutes. It will also allow the power user to bootup at higher than usual overclocks.


Whenever trying to increase the V-core by more than 20% it is most certainly a very good idea to utilize the ATX power conditioner, as an extra precaution and to increase the life time of the CPU, at such Xtreme paramters.

Kind regards
Steen - Chip-con

[PiLsY]

Steen - what is the theoretical max that a prometia could cool to before booting?

Are there any reference tables that tell you what sort of temp at idle and load you can expect at a given air temp, cpu speed and voltage? These would be very handy in helping people who are not sure whether they have bad cpu contact or not. Im not suggesting you guarantee temps or anything - that just wouldnt be possible. Just that a rough guide may help people ascertain whether they have good contact or not.

I also heard of a friend of mine who does a lot of work with compressors that by working the compressor harder at startup (setting a much lower boot temp) will keep it working more efficiently in windows. Is this correct?

And lastly - I think you could doi with some sort of dust filter infront of the radiator - mine is CAKED in dust :p. Just cleaning it now.....

PiLsY.

[donny_paycheck]

Originally posted by Its-Freezing
Watch out for condensation here. Unless you do a H/W mod on the Prometeia (which will affect the warranty, sorry I have to mention this) the heating elements inside the Microfreezer will also be turned off, in which case you might risk outside condensation !!!

I've heard of this mod being done with the old vapochills to increase their performance. Let's say I had a very low dew point so condensation would be a little worry. Would I get noticeably lower temperatures by disabling the heating elements?

Also (this is for anybody) where could I find some mechanical measurements of the Prometeia unit. I'm choosing a case and want to know if it will fit correctly or not.

Thanks in advance...

[Its-Freezing]

Originally posted by PiLsY
Steen - what is the theoretical max that a prometia could cool to before booting?

It really depends on whether we are talking the 220V or 115V version, as they differ in the min. obtainable temperature, and whether you are utilising an ATX power conditioner or not.

Since this is relevant only to maximum obtainable Boot-up screen shots, lets asume it's with an ATX Power conditioner. In that case you simply test your Prometeia first, by taking off power to the MB, and start the Prometeia, by a PON short in the ATX power connector from the Power supply (as described in the user manual Page 7). This will give you the minimum obtainable temperature at no load (which is identical to when you use the ATX conditioner), add a couple of degrees (for safety margin when starting on a warmer day).

For the sake of argument, let's say that the Prometeia reach -44 at start-up without a load, and it climbs to -26 at full load with a hefty Overvolted and OC'ed CPU, then set St1 to -24 and P1 to 18 (St1 and P1 controls the Reset signal to the ATX conditioner and the MB. For additional information on how to adjust these, refer to the Advanced User Guide in the manual starting on page 22, with details outlining the cyclic nature of this signal on page 25)

The point at which Reset release would then be -24 -18 = -42C, and the point at which Reset is again asserted would be -24. In the example above this should insure that the system will actually reach the boot temperature, and that it would never reach the point at which it resets.

Now if you know that you CPU get's unstable at an evaporator temperature of -28, then you should ofcourse select the reset to be asserted already at -29 or -30, so the system just resets, rather than getting unstable.

Hope this is of some help, and that it does not sound too complex, it really is quite straight forward, once you get the hang of it. :D



Originally posted by PiLsY
Are there any reference tables that tell you what sort of temp at idle and load you can expect at a given air temp, cpu speed and voltage? These would be very handy in helping people who are not sure whether they have bad cpu contact or not. Im not suggesting you guarantee temps or anything - that just wouldnt be possible. Just that a rough guide may help people ascertain whether they have good contact or not.

First of all the ambient temperature will not have any major influence on the evaporator temperature. Meaning that a difference in ambient of 10 degrees would only result in a difference on the Evaporator of a couple of degrees at most.

It is all about pressures really. the higher ambient temperature cause a higher pressure in the condensor, the percentual difference of pressure in the condensor, is however not equivalent to the percentual differential pressure over the high and low side of the system, thus the resulting difference in the pressure of the evaporator will not be as high as that in the condensor.

Consequentially the resulting temperature does not raise or fall as much as the ambient temperature did.

Confused ? Wait till you see the next chapter of the Phase Change Soap Opera here on this channel, so stay tuned .... :smileysex

(No, I guess this is getting a bit too technical already, anyway this is a simplified version, not including all parameters like the influence of the temperature on the Compressor and so on)



Originally posted by PiLsY
I also heard of a friend of mine who does a lot of work with compressors that by working the compressor harder at startup (setting a much lower boot temp) will keep it working more efficiently in windows. Is this correct?

I can't see how (but cannot rule out that I am missing/overseing a parameter, that could cause a prolonged effect of doing so)

On the idea of tilting the entire system for some time prior to starting it up, to force as much oil back into the compressor as possible, it will have the unfortunate side effect of not lubricating the inlet valves of the compressor sufficiently untill oil again begins to float all around in the system, so from a long term reliability point of view, it is not the most optimal approach :(


Originally posted by PiLsY
And lastly - I think you could do with some sort of dust filter infront of the radiator - mine is CAKED in dust :p. Just cleaning it now.....

Well I can asure you that if there was a filter infront, it would have stopped working long ago. A filter will clug up with much finer dust, that what the condensor catches, also it depends of your environment, having the PC in a bedroom for instance, would resemble the environment of a heavy industrial environment (depending of the activities in the bedroom of course :smileysex

In the comparison review at www.hardware-testdk.com (http://www.hardware-testdk.com/test_show.asp?id=1021) there are some curves for the 220V model detailing resulting evaporator temperature at a given specific load.

Whatever load a specific CPU produce at a given speed and V-core, is basically too complex to determine in general, as so many factors are involved affecting this, including Make, model, batch, stepping, V-core, Speed and individual toolerances of the Chips, even from the same Wafer !!!

Hope this covers it, more or less.
:rolleyes: :comp10: (exhausted, spelling errors are totally free of charge ;) )

:toast: Steen - Chip-con

[PiLsY]

Thanks for the reply steen - its much appreciated :). As you can tell my technical knowledge on phase change is not really what it should be, but im taking measures to change that :).

Yes its in the bedroom but how you knew what I get up to in there is beyond me :p.

On a side note I am having some difficulty with my prometia of late (last couple of days or so) which ive posted up in another thread. Im now thinking with what you said that its maybe due to the tilting I did when I first got it (although its been runnin now for nearly 6 months with no problem). Any insight you have on it would be very helpful. Im trying to save your support department a bit of hassle in the hopes it can be fixed by any suggestions people have on here. If not ill fire an email off to them in a few days once Ive given people a chance to have a think about it :).

PiLsY.

[Its-Freezing]

Originally posted by donny_paycheck
I've heard of this mod being done with the old vapochills to increase their performance. Let's say I had a very low dew point so condensation would be a little worry. Would I get noticeably lower temperatures by disabling the heating elements?

Also (this is for anybody) where could I find some mechanical measurements of the Prometeia unit. I'm choosing a case and want to know if it will fit correctly or not.

Thanks in advance...


Well I would not call it worth persual, unlike the Vapochill which has heating elements directly underneath the CPU socket glued on to the MB, another heating element on the CPU itself, and yet another in the close vicinity directly around it, to fight condensation build-ups, the onlye heating element associated with the Prometeia, is directly underneath the surface of the hermetic cell, there is a considerable amount of insulation between that heating element and the actual evaporator.

The reason for this major difference, is that the Prometeia does not need to fight condensation build-ups inside the hermetic cell (as long as it is hermetic) because then there is no supply of additional humid air to generate any condensation from.

Therefore you would hardly obtain more than 1 to 2 degrees improved evaporator temperature, not realy worth the extra risk of outside condensation builing up, and running down your MB, is it ?!

On the other question, I believe dimensions are available on the Chip-con WEBsite, under products, technical information. (I am too tired to look it up just now ;) )

Steen, Chip-con

[donny_paycheck]

Thanks for the help, Steen. I was able to find the dimensions and you answered my heating element question very well. :toast:


edit- For the technical specs, anybody looking for them can click here (http://www.chip-con.com/tech-info.asp).

[IronFire]

Incase your bolts go missing from the box and you dont get any when your topless Prometia arrives they are M6 ( 6mm), had to go buy a selection of bolts to find out :)

One question I have is how do you take the front off, mine is so incredibly stiff it wont budge at all. I dont want to use screw driver to prise it off so any suggestions ?

One thing that would be nice to have with future topless promtias is a drilling template matching the top of the prom or some measure ments as that was the trickets part of the whole system.

Other wise its a great system and when I get my damn CPU sorted I will have some great over clocks.

[Hardass]

Anyone else ever have a problem getting KD7 to run in the prometeia. I have tried 2 boards with no luck. The lights on mobo come on, fan spins, thats it. Tried with the power conditioner and without. Put the epox in and it fires right up. need some help on this one!

[DaGooch]

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5898

[Nohto]

Hardass, I have problems now and then. What I found in my situation is that after it reaches it's boot temp and releases the reset switch, sometimes I have to hit the reset switch (yes that's right the reset switch even when it's over 185 mhz). You have to push it in extremely fast. Like flicking the corner of it and immediately releasing it. Make sure your temps are below the start-up temps. Give 10 - 20 secs and repeat if necessary. I have to repeat this 1-4 times. Sometimes it will boot every time. Sometimes when I restart windows after loading a driver it will act up and I have to do the reset trick. If windows locks up or errors causing you to restart 9 times out of 10 you will have to kiill the power restart then when temps get to boot level do the reset switch trick. I'm not sure this will work for you or for anyone else, but it works 100% for me. Before I learned these little tricks I used to get so pissed I was very close to throwing the whole thing out the window the first couple of days.
Nate

[Hardass]

Originally posted by Nohto
Hardass, I have problems now and then. What I found in my situation is that after it reaches it's boot temp and releases the reset switch, sometimes I have to hit the reset switch (yes that's right the reset switch even when it's over 185 mhz). You have to push it in extremely fast. Like flicking the corner of it and immediately releasing it. Make sure your temps are below the start-up temps. Give 10 - 20 secs and repeat if necessary. I have to repeat this 1-4 times. Sometimes it will boot every time. Sometimes when I restart windows after loading a driver it will act up and I have to do the reset trick. If windows locks up or errors causing you to restart 9 times out of 10 you will have to kiill the power restart then when temps get to boot level do the reset switch trick. I'm not sure this will work for you or for anyone else, but it works 100% for me. Before I learned these little tricks I used to get so pissed I was very close to throwing the whole thing out the window the first couple of days.
Nate
I will try this when I get home as it is still installed. If it doesn,t work then I will remove and try DaGooch,s method. Thank you both for the advise.

[Nohto]

I had my KD7 on SLK800 before I hooked up the Prom. Go ahead and try my method, but I just thought I would let you know.
Edit
Wouldn't flashing your bios be the same as a fresh boot? (New motherboard) I have flashed my bios several times since the Prommy has been hooked up and haven't had any other problems other than what I stated earlier.

[Its-Freezing]

Originally posted by Hardass
Anyone else ever have a problem getting KD7 to run in the prometeia. I have tried 2 boards with no luck. The lights on mobo come on, fan spins, thats it. Tried with the power conditioner and without. Put the epox in and it fires right up. need some help on this one!

With the KD7 (and variants thereof) you need to do a first time boot at default settings, without the extended reset delay imposed by the Prometeia (both with and without ATX conditioner)

This can best be accomplised by using a seperate power supply to boot the Prometeia from. With only the reset wire from the front panel (for safe insurrance) hooked up to the MB (leaving the reset input "RstCU" for the ATX power conditioner disconnected in case you have that installed) turn on the PC itself afterwards.

This way the KD-7 will be able to identify the CPU and complete it's automatic mulitplyer settings first.

This is the same procedure you will need if a too Xtreme OC'ing have been selected, forcing a clearing of the C-MOS memory.

Cheers
Steen

[Hardass]

How do you start cooling unit without using start button, I just hook the 4 pin connector to a seperate power supply. Then how do i I jump start unit?

[Its-Freezing]

Originally posted by Hardass
How do you start cooling unit without using start button, I just hook the 4 pin connector to a seperate power supply. Then how do i I jump start unit?


Have you tried reading he manual ;)

Page 7 in the user manual describes it, including a nice little illustration :rolleyes:

:stick:
Cheers
Steen

[Hardass]

Originally posted by Its-Freezing
Have you tried reading he manual ;)

Page 7 in the user manual describes it, including a nice little illustration :rolleyes:

:stick:
Cheers
Steen
I was too busy beating the manual against the KD7.:D

[Nohto]

I have to admit that the manual isn't the best I have seen. Especially the parts describing the seal string. Clearer illustrations would definately help.

[donny_paycheck]

I've had my Prometeia running for two days now with an ATX PSU closing its relay. Check out the ball of frost built up on the cooling head:

http://www.speakeasy.org/~rylandpage/computershiznit/prom_ice.JPG

edit- the display says -46 if you can't read it

[mike.elmes]

Man does that §§§§§ get cold......reminds me of the cold shoulder the old lady's been given me lately while I'm with my new "prom girl":hehe: