PS3 Cell Chip goes like Hell!!!

[Voltage_Boy]

Hi,
today I read some info about the Cell Chip, the new PS3 CPU. 8 (!!!) Cores and 2.5MB Cache sounds incredible to me. Should be enough for next few Years and enough to compete with Highend Computers!!!
What do you Guys think about that?

Greetings Voltage_Boy

[ocmyface]

sounds pretty awesome.

who makes it? PCPower is what i heard last (im sure thats wrong)

what cracks me up is that some guys at my work got in a huge fight about the PS3. one guy kept saying that the PS3 has a 1.8ghz p4 and the other claimed that it used an athlon 64 :rolleyes:

[Tube]

sounds good!
but it's all rumours before there is an official statement about it of course...

[Der_KHAN]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=21131

[jjcom]

sounds pretty awesome.

who makes it? PCPower is what i heard last (im sure thats wrong)

what cracks me up is that some guys at my work got in a huge fight about the PS3. one guy kept saying that the PS3 has a 1.8ghz p4 and the other claimed that it used an athlon 64 :rolleyes:

Yeah, I know what you mean. I couldn't get it through my friends head that a modded Xbox wouldn't be as good as a Xbox 2 lol. He was saying something about playing the Xbox2 games on a modded Xbox lol. I know its kinda off topic...

Man thats nice. Wonder how big these cell processors will be...Have to be fairly small...otherwise these PS3 will cost too much

jjcom

[Voltage_Boy]

Got some additional information:

Die-Size: 221 mm²
Core Clock: Up to 4.66 Ghz
Mem: Rambus Memory Modules with a Bandwidth of 100 GB/s !!!!!
Cores:8 Cores with 256KB Cache per Core
Manufacturers: Sony,IBM,Toshiba

The Power of this thing is unbelievable: 256 Gigaflops (or 256.000.000.000 Floating Point Instructions per Sec.)!!!
Sony is saying that its as 10 times as fast as a Desktop CPU (but which? 10x FX-55 :D )
You can find this CPU not only in the PS3. Also Workstations, Servers and other Systems can be equipped with it.

I'ver heard that NVidia is developing the GPU for the PS3 (NV?)

But I also heard that the Nintendo Revolution will be equipped with an Ati R5xx and Dual Core Power-PC CPU so lets see how Microsoft will compete in this Battle!!!

2005 seems to be the Year of the Multi-Core CPUS!!!


Greetings Voltage_Boy

[Damien]

I think it's funny how big of a jump that is. PS2 - 300mhz, PS3 - 4660mhz

:toast:

[Der_KHAN]

I think it's funny how big of a jump that is. PS2 - 300mhz, PS3 - 4660mhz
:toast:

a prototype got up to a max of 4.6GHz, so i wouldnt expect it to run that fast in a PS3.

now about the 8 cores:

the design is based on a simplified 64-bit power5 architecture.
the cell has a dual-core with 512kb L2-cache.
the interesting part is that there are 8 more power-based cores - so-called Synergistic Processing Units with 256kb cache each. based on "SIMD-Method with Local-Store" - dunno what that means but it seems these 8 extra cores are no fully independent cpus. german l'inq (http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/56139)

so these 10cores must be the reason why they sell it as being able to handle "10threads at the same time" or being "10times faster than a desktop cpu".

i wouldnt get so excited and throw my current rig out of the window when this chip hits the market.
people may call it the most important microprocessor of the decade (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/01/cell_analysis_part_one/) but as u see its based on current technology and it still remains to be seen how cost-efficent it can be produced.

[DudeMiester]

You should check ouy beyond 3d, there is a lot of information there.

Anyways, the SPUs are for the most part little mini-computers on their own. They Cell processor is a networking of these psudo-computers, plus the XDR memory controller and FlexIO FSB. Anyways, the SPUs are SIMD, that is they are vector processors. They operate on 128-bits at a time, that is 4x32-bit numbers, hence a vector. They have local storage, which is like cache on a regular CPU, the difference being they are accesses directly like RAM and not behind the scenes. They also have basically no control logic, there's no caching, no branch prediction, no out of order execution, no register renaming, etc... They simply do what you tell them do, nothing more and nothing less. So code will have to be well optimised for good performance, and branch prediction and caching will have to handled all in software. This will make them more difficult to program, but then again these are not so much general processors (unlike the PPC), as they are raw number crunchers. So I really don't see this being a major problem, a difficulty yes, but hardly frightening.

All these SPUs and whatnot are managed by a custom Power core (PPC), it isn't dual core, but it is dual threaded, like Intel's HT. This is pretty much your standard processor, but it does cut back on some control features too (no out of order processor), so code will have to be well optimised too, but generally speaking it's a lot easier and much more generalised then the SPUs. Which makes sense since it basically controls the entire CPU, so it needs the most control logic and the most generalised design.

Like I said these are networked. This is done with a ring layout, so each SPU can directly communicate to the ones next to it, which is good for pipelining a bunch of SPUs together. They can also commuicate with other SPUs and chip components, but there is a bit more latancy because of the added distance. It also runs at 1/2 the overall core clock.

Finally it's very flexible. You see while your main process runs on the PPC core, it sends out "apulets" which are bundles of code and data to the SPUs. Also, these apulets don't need to be processed on the chip itself. It's not a problem for them to be sent to other connected processor or even over the internet for processing! So overall when you think about it, you have your main and general procedural logic running on the PPC, which then generates a number of apulets that can be used for parallel processing or whatever, which are then sent to the SPUs for processing.

Although, it's very important that you avoid switching the SPU states (changing the apulet running before it's finished) as much as possible, because unlike switching processes/states on a generalised processor like the PPC, which is pretty cheap, switching processes/states on the SPU is VERY expensive, because you've got to copy all 128 128-bit registers and the 256kb of local memory over to the system RAM or PPC L2 cache or something. Obviously a large and time consuming operation. However, you do have to change states sometimes, because an apulet may take too long to finish and another program need some processing time. This is the nature of a multi-tasking OS, but I have some thiought on a kind of book-keeping system that could alleivate this problem.

The issuing of apulets to SPUs can be managed by a bookkeeping system in the OS, whereby you reserve processing time on the SPUs with the OS, coupled with an estimate of how long your processing will take. At the appropriate time, your processing is issued and if it takes too long then it's stopped, the next apulet in line is issued, and your processing is automatically re-reserved in the bookkeeping system. Perhaps the OS could send your process a warning, a request for a new time estimate, or something else to help re-reserve the apulet more efficently. More complex arrangements of SPUs, such as pipelines or SPUs that interact with the GPU and other external devices would also be indicated to the OS so it can handle them approprately. All together, with this information the OS should be able to effectively balance the processing time of apulets with the need to multi-task, and thus minimise the SPU context switching problem.

Overall, I think that if you plan ahead, programming for the PS3 won't be that bad. If fact, I would go so far as to call it enjoyable!

[Voltage_Boy]

interesting information...

allthough Microsoft hasnt announced the X-Box 2 Specs yet the Cell-Chip will be better I think. But I also think the Core-Clock isnt near 4.66 in the PS3. 256 GFLOPS doesnt sound too bad!
But Multiprocessing-Consoles werent successfull in the Past. The last thing I remember is the SEGA Saturn. Programming Games for it was VERY difficult and the Console went down (Its hardware architecture wasnt the only reason I think)

Greetings Voltage_Boy

[kryptobs2000]

Well I think all 3 consoles are going to be multi cored, and with intel hyperthreading having been around, and dual cores coming to pc's, I think it'll work out fine. It'll be easy to port from pc to console, and vice the versa, so it's a good move.

[kryptobs2000]

Last specs I heard xbox 2 was using 3x3.5ghz power pc processors and an r500. Dosn't sound bad to me, and wouldn't a powerpc @ 3.5ghz be faster than an FX @ 3.0ghz anyways?

[Voltage_Boy]

yeah. microsoft+nintendo will have r500 and sony a nvidia gpu but the big question is: When will we see the PS3!
Sony is saying that production of the cell chip will start 2nd half 2005 so I dont think we'll see that thing under the christmas tree but microsoft did say that x-box2's comin BEFORE the PS3 will be released, didnt they?
But cell chip in a workstation? Must be quite a machine...
I think we'll see breathtaking graphics on X-Box2,PS3 and Nintendo Revolution!!!

[boshi]

the real question is what will the price of these units be. I got my PS2 for $150 and my gamecube for $150, how much will a dual core whatever-the-hell with an r50000000 cost?

I think its all just hype, I'd bet the xbox 2 will probably have a powerpc 970 running at about 1.6GHz and an r420.

[[XC] moddolicous]

If someone could learn how to write an OS for this (if the PS3 has a hard drive) then someone might make alot of money. Its something to look into.

[kryptobs2000]

the real question is what will the price of these units be. I got my PS2 for $150 and my gamecube for $150, how much will a dual core whatever-the-hell with an r50000000 cost?

I think its all just hype, I'd bet the xbox 2 will probably have a powerpc 970 running at about 1.6GHz and an r420.

I don't see ur reasoning for that. When the xbox came out pc's wern't much better, didn't the geforce 4 just come out? And the xbox had a mix between a gf3 and a gf4, so the xbox is having a r500, which is slightly worse than an r520. I don't see the big deal with multi processors either, cost wise, it's a better move than a single core/ single processor, as it will help pc's migrate as well since they are releasing dual cores, we'll have more games that support them and take use of this.

[thegreek]

If someone could learn how to write an OS for this (if the PS3 has a hard drive) then someone might make alot of money. Its something to look into.

It already works with linux :banana:

[Den Leiw]

[in my dreams] The Ps3 will have a 200 GB SATA II HDD included for storing save games (like on the Xbox) and dl updates will be possible too[/dream]

[reject]

meh, i like pc better.
its customize and mod-able.
i think the stuff about cpu is bs. console will never be better than pc. consoles are for fun with mates like the gamecube epitomizes that

[Voltage_Boy]

@ Den Leiw
and for storing "backups" :D


I think the Graphics Performance will be better than on todays PCs (Halflife2, Doom3 or Far Cry) but it has to be enough for at least 5 years coz you cant simlpy upgrade consoles like a PC. Thats the reason why the next gen consoles are so extremly powerfull!


greetings Voltage_Boy

[kryptobs2000]

I can't really see consoles being more powerful than pc's ever. They have to use pc technology, or else it will be very hard to code for a new architecture and then it wouldn't be port friendly so the console would be alienated from the rest, That would just be a bad idea. So since consoles are taken from pc technology, when they are developed they are obviously more powerful, but at the time of release they are no longer using the latest stuff obviously, and then a year later pc games are much ahead of console games again.

[vapb400]

i wonder how hot these things will run, they sound awesome!

[tinker77]

hmmmm, Sounds interesting.

[megahyperion]

Got some additional information:

Die-Size: 221 mm²

Greetings Voltage_Boy


Wow long thread an no one quoted the size , 221 mm²

hmmmmmm 221 mm is freakin huge , thats nearly 8" x 8"

[megahyperion]

a prototype got up to a max of 4.6GHz, so i wouldnt expect it to run that fast in a PS3.

now about the 8 cores:

the design is based on a simplified 64-bit power5 architecture.
the cell has a dual-core with 512kb L2-cache.
the interesting part is that there are 8 more power-based cores - so-called Synergistic Processing Units with 256kb cache each. based on "SIMD-Method with Local-Store" - dunno what that means but it seems these 8 extra cores are no fully independent cpus. german l'inq (http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/56139)

so these 10cores must be the reason why they sell it as being able to handle "10threads at the same time" or being "10times faster than a desktop cpu".

i wouldnt get so excited and throw my current rig out of the window when this chip hits the market.
people may call it the most important microprocessor of the decade (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/01/cell_analysis_part_one/) but as u see its based on current technology and it still remains to be seen how cost-efficent it can be produced.



Ah if thats true then its like the "3 cores" of the PS2 and and if I remember correctly alot of people left the sony gamming market cause they said it was too hard to make games for.

[masterofpuppets]

Consoles suck. Period. PC's will always be superior. By the time sony release their fabled "omfgrandom466000000000" processor, PC technology will be superior once again.

[Lufusol]

Wow long thread an no one quoted the size , 221 mm²

hmmmmmm 221 mm is freakin huge , thats nearly 8" x 8"
Nearly 9"x9", actually, but I think they meant wafer size, not the individual die size. I sure as :banana::banana::banana::banana: hope that's not the die size! PS3s would need a meat locker for a heatsink. . :rolleyes: :D

-Luf

[Disposibleteen]

Consoles suck. Period. PC's will always be superior. By the time sony release their fabled "omfgrandom466000000000" processor, PC technology will be superior once again.
very very true, my friend is avidly into his Xbox and was trying to convince me that computer catn have better graphics than an Xbox. then i brought him over and he played half life 2 on my comp (X800 Pro) and that blew him away! I told him my comp isnt even as good as it gets. Subsequently he shut up about graphics after that :toast:

[Napoleonic]

heh....... let's face it, maybe after 1-2 generation (not years)since xbox next or PS3 out, then PC will be able to catch up their technologies..... why? because the manufacturer wants that!

they won't sell a product just to be outdated after one year, remember a console can't be upgraded......so they pushed it into the best they can build

but I dunno if this will be correct, 'cause PC technologies and softwares will gain something extraordinary new with the launch of Longhorn and 64 bit softwares, these will make a next gen PC will be had a serious advantage in programming -> better interfaces, better API -> better functionality and graphics appealing

[DarkManX_BG]

Wow long thread an no one quoted the size , 221 mm²

hmmmmmm 221 mm is freakin huge , thats nearly 8" x 8"
:lol:
Actually, 221mm² = 0,34255068025296 square inch
(10mm x 22,1mm = 0.3937008 inch x 0.8700787 inch)

Use this (http://www.onlineconversion.com/area.htm) if you don't believe me ;)

[antipop]

Consoles suck. Period. PC's will always be superior. By the time sony release their fabled "omfgrandom466000000000" processor, PC technology will be superior once again.
I've an xbox and i play more on it than on my comp
At least i don't have to worry that i won't be able to play a game or that it won"t run smoothly because i don't have the latest $400-card

[DudeMiester]

Sure you don't have to worry about that, but you loose the flexibility. On a console you are limited to the feature set the game provides, with PCs you can have advanced features in anticipation of more advanced hardware. Sure it's more difficult to work with, but with the art aspects of game creation exploding so much, the actual programming will because less and less of a cost, and thus spending the extra to get it to work on a variety of PCs will be less and less of an expense relative the the cost of the project.

[perkam]

Perhaps for the ps3 they can give tweaking options for "advanced" lol users. (advanced as in when installing a 1kb program you have to click advanced/custom just to change the damn directory :rolleyes: )

So you could turn AA and AF on or off as you wished or something would be a good step.

Perkam

[antipop]

Perhaps for the ps3 they can give tweaking options for "advanced" lol users. (advanced as in when installing a 1kb program you have to click advanced/custom just to change the damn directory :rolleyes: )

So you could turn AA and AF on or off as you wished or something would be a good step.

Perkam I don't see the point on a console, of course you can choose between AA AF or else on a comp, but i most of the time a game for a console is optimized to have the best pic on the console so tweaking is pretty limited

With the xbox you can do some minor "tweaks" like choose the best display for your television ... (it's really minor stuff don't misunderstand me)

I think i'll still play on both console and comp i rather play doom on a comp but project gotham racing on a xbox and halo2 is still nicer on the bo i think

[Merlin]

i think cell will be for a much broader class of devices than just consoles.. but consoles are the way to get those chips cheap =) also, it will most probably be manufactured on 65nm; think of it: 221mm² ain't economically feasible for a console, not even talking about nvidia's next-gen gpu which won't be small, either.
as for clockrates, 4 - 4.6 ghz probably isn't that far off (even if the first batch of ps3's come with 90nm cells (highly doubtful), as the engineering sample doesn't represent final silicon AND already uses only about 80W for 4.something ghz), if you are more technically minded or just curious you might want to read this http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT021005084318&p=3 . it explains (amongst other things) why cell is able to reach higher clockspeeds more easily than a64's/p4's/etc (basically, current has to travel through fewer transistors per cycle than in mainstream cpu's today)
finally, i think cell/ps3 isn't comparable to the other ppc-based consoles since its progamming model differs significantly from those of conventional cpu's. 'articles' / news describing it as a 9 core design (and other oversimplifications) are completely missing the point, pure marketing/headline stuff.
though that's all nice and good, software will ultimately decide on how good those games will look and feel, and thus, (market) success.

[reject]

Sure you don't have to worry about that, but you loose the flexibility. On a console you are limited to the feature set the game provides, with PCs you can have advanced features in anticipation of more advanced hardware. Sure it's more difficult to work with, but with the art aspects of game creation exploding so much, the actual programming will because less and less of a cost, and thus spending the extra to get it to work on a variety of PCs will be less and less of an expense relative the the cost of the project.
:lol: console are for noobs, i think your saying :D

[LenniZ]

Why are they not making these cpus for desktop use ? :stick:
Imagine the performance ! :D :banana: :banana: :banana:

[DudeMiester]

They are, lol. Ok well workstations, but that's pretty close.

[kryptobs2000]

it's a different architecture, so you'd have to rewrite everything to run with them right?

[Der_KHAN]

it's a different architecture, so you'd have to rewrite everything to run with them right?yup.

[kryptobs2000]

that seems like it's gonna be really hard then to have multiplatform games for consoles, at least when the ps3 is concerned. I think thats going to be a huge limitation to the ps3's 'success'

[wfarid]

that seems like it's gonna be really hard then to have multiplatform games for consoles, at least when the ps3 is concerned. I think thats going to be a huge limitation to the ps3's 'success'

i don't think that's gonna be a limitation to ps3's sucess... Ps3 will be hella succesfull, so will xbox2. And the cool thing is, is that both companies while battling it out over xbox and ps2 have learned a lot from each other, and that will only benefit the consumer... So xbox 2 will have some really kick ass rpgs and ps3 will have some really kick ass sports games and fps's... I just hope you can mod both consoles and do with em as you please (as you could with the xbox)...

[kryptobs2000]

yeah, I hope so too, about modding them. It was nice how you could just run the xbox off the harddrive and not need to put in the dvd's. But, the limitation is that they can't just 'port' games like they normally do, they have to go back and completely rewrite the whole thing, I think thats a huge limitation, and xbox 2, gamecube 2 thingy, and pc, you can all have direct ports, as they all use the same architecture. One thing I do like though, is how all the next gen consoles have multiple processors, this is gonna help out alot in support for dual cores for pc's, and make it alot easier to port. :)