US cars vs Rest of the world

[TheTrebleKing]

this is a debate i've had in mind for a while.

to me US cars are big, heavy, guzzle loads of gas/petrol, and most cant go as fast as their smaller, more fuel efficient, and lighter European and Japanese counterparts.

so what gives? surely would be better if the US adopted the same tech as other countries and made more efficient and lighter cars?

take a little old Vauxhall Nova for example, 1.4L with a turbo and some tuning can go well over 120MPH and still does 35MPG compared to a US V8 that weighs about 3 Tonnes struggles over 100MPH (Station wagon for example) and barely does 15MPG.

wouldn't it be better for the world if the US used less gas/petrol? less demand would be put on the world supply and be cheaper for the rest of us.

lets hear everyones thoughts on this, keep if friendly folks :toast:

[NWEng]

Until we Americans are forced to pay the same amount for our gas as the rest of the world, fuel efficiency will not be an issue for Detroit and the American people. Soccer mom's, retired folk, and those "important people with their H2's" will set the pace until then. Sad but true considering we talking about a finite resource; it's going to happen eventually and there will a lot of :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:ing and crying when it does.


:rocker:

[masterofpuppets]

Italian cars own! There are some nice american cars, but you can't beat a nice Ferrari or Lamborghini or one of the other funny named italian companies. Err, Jaguars are quite nice. Especially the old and now sadly not in production, XJ220.

[hollywood]

this is a debate i've had in mind for a while.

to me US cars are big, heavy, guzzle loads of gas/petrol, and most cant go as fast as their smaller, more fuel efficient, and lighter European and Japanese counterparts.

so what gives? surely would be better if the US adopted the same tech as other countries and made more efficient and lighter cars?

take a little old Vauxhall Nova for example, 1.4L with a turbo and some tuning can go well over 120MPH and still does 35MPG compared to a US V8 that weighs about 3 Tonnes struggles over 100MPH (Station wagon for example) and barely does 15MPG.

wouldn't it be better for the world if the US used less gas/petrol? less demand would be put on the world supply and be cheaper for the rest of us.

lets hear everyones thoughts on this, keep if friendly folks :toast:


I think your perception of "US" cars is a little dated. Maybe what you are saying was true in the 1970s, 1980s. However today most US built sedans are 4 cylinder or at most V6.

We have many cars that do well on gas mileage. Cars by Saturn, Pontiac, Ford, etc. We've got some of the worlds most strict emmission standards too...ever heard of California standards? Compared to California, Europe's emissions standards look outright bad for the planet. So your whole argument about the US needing better tech in it's cars is simply unjustified.

Plus supposed "imports" are more popular in the car market anyhow. Toyota, Mitsubishi, Nissan and Honda. These are all moslty built here in the USA, however they're still called "imports." Even though alot of US built cars are actually made in Mexico.

Of course Trucks and SUVs are another matter entirely. With the rise in gas prices though, everywhere you look you see an SUV up for sale.

If you really want to pick on a country with piss-poor emissions standards, and is driving more and more cars each day...Pick on China.

[enzoR]

look at the gas prices in europe its almost double.

[dqniel]

I think your perception of "US" cars is a little dated. Maybe what you are saying was true in the 1970s, 1980s. However today most US built sedans are 4 cylinder or at most V6.

We have many cars that do well on gas mileage. Cars by Saturn, Pontiac, Ford, etc. We've got some of the worlds most strict emmission standards too...ever heard of California standards? Compared to California, Europe's emissions standards look outright bad for the planet. So your whole argument about the US needing better tech in it's cars is simply unjustified.

Plus supposed "imports" are more popular in the car market anyhow. Toyota, Mitsubishi, Nissan and Honda. These are all moslty built here in the USA, however they're still called "imports." Even though alot of US built cars are actually made in Mexico.

Of course Trucks and SUVs are another matter entirely. With the rise in gas prices though, everywhere you look you see an SUV up for sale.

If you really want to pick on a country with piss-poor emissions standards, and is driving more and more cars each day...Pick on China.

couldn't have said it better myself. my friend has an 88 vw jetta with euro racing cams. the cams are in spec for emissions in europe, but not here. although, i still do agree that a lot of our car decisions are poor for the most part. why have a 6l v8 for example when you can make the car half the weight, and put a supercharged 1.6 in it or something? safer, quieter, better milage, etc... kind of confuses me. i'm guessing its mainly because half the soccer moms and senior citizens here feel safer in a huge car (which tests prove to be foolish)

[Big Deel]

You are way out of date I would say.I have NEVER road in a V-8 car that struggled to hit 100 mph.The only tyhing that stuggled was the driver's nerve.Take a test drive and bring yourself back to reality.Bring your Vauxhall Nova for a run......I would Be there and back before that thing made it down the 1/4 mile.
Oh I suppose you meant 0-30 et. Oh ok. pff

[TheTrebleKing]

ok seriously, a tuned nissan skyline can make 350+ BHP out of a 2.5L engine, and take it upwards of 190+ Mph and still use less than half the fuel of a yank-tank V8 5.0L

anywayz why have a car that can go so fast as a V8? the limit on the highway is 65MPH if i am correct, a 1.0L could manage 90MPH and still be too fast for any speed limit in the US.

i think its just the 'merican way, that everything they build must be BIGGER than anyone else, they must guzzle more fuel than anyone else because they can.

either that or a simple mind cant get good performance out of a sub 2 litre engine, so they stick a big engine in it to avoid applying any intellect to the problem.

in years time when the US fuel runs out, they will have to buy all fuel from abroad like most countries, then the V8's and all other fuel guzzling transport will go thirsty, cos fuel will cost too much to run them.

i'll probly get banned or something for appearing to be "anti 'merican", sorry if i seem like that, but i feel disgusted at the ignorance with things like this, Petroleum is a finite resource, it wont last forever you know.

[TheTrebleKing]

Bring your Vauxhall Nova for a run......I would Be there and back before that thing made it down the 1/4 mile.

vauxhall nova 1.6 twin-turbo, quarter the weight of any yank-tank, would blow away any V8 off the starting line, would be half-way there before the big ol' gas-guzzler hit 2nd gear.

in a magazine i saw the times of a nova 1.8 Gsi, 0-60 in 5.5sec and 150mph top speed.

all that from a little car :) the 1.6 twin turbo would be even better acceleration though

[Big Deel]

Have you ever ridden in an American car?
I ask only because it dose not sound like it.

There is no way you can compare a Nissan skyline/Vauxhall nova 1.6 twin-turbo to a V-8 American car. It’s like comparing a Duron to a Pentium 4 ee.
One uses less power and yields less performance. The other uses more resources but gives better performance. At the same time there are fewer who use and/or have one. Look at the price of a high-end V8 car. The US is not flooded with V8 cars compared to other cars.

Yes the speed limit is 65 in some states. In some it’s higher. There is a lot of open spaces in-between to do "a little more�. It’s kind of like giving your processor more than the maximum specified voltage, its wrong but if used with good intelligence it is ok.

quote
"I think its just the 'merican way, that everything they build must be BIGGER than anyone else, they must guzzle more fuel than anyone else because they can."end quote

It is the American way to build bigger and better because we can, butt not all things use more fuel.

I do not see you as "anti 'merican". I understand and respect you concerns.
The automakers are making more vehicles with smaller engines.
The are so few V-8 cars made now it makes me sad as I am an auto technician and enjoy driving/tuning them.

I see your point now, it’s about thee fuel used
I just don't think you have much ground to bark at American V-8 cars.
It seams to me the world be a lot bigger fish to fry. ,Big

[Karnivore]

I think some one needs to write a guide 100 ways to bash the USA.. Seems like some people just want to bash for any and all reasons :stick: :stick:

[TheTrebleKing]

well i bash them for fuel consumtion, foreign policy, and war.

other than that they have hot chicks :banana:

and nice big sandwiches in NY :slobber:

so its not all bad :p:

[MadMikeSS]

in years time when the US fuel runs out, they will have to buy all fuel from abroad like most countries, then the V8's and all other fuel guzzling transport will go thirsty, cos fuel will cost too much to run them.

Actually, North America gets most of their fuel from Middle Eastern countries.

[TheTrebleKing]

Actually, North America gets most of their fuel from Middle Eastern countries.


hmm middle eastern countries... Iraq... Oil... US at war in Iraq...

nah wont bother going there :p:

[eddy]

Actually, North America gets most of their fuel from Middle Eastern countries.
I thought they get more from Venezuala, Canada, and Mexico combined than from Middle Eastern countries combined.

[VSpecII]

If you're opinion on a car is based on where it came from, you, quite simply, have some growing up to do.

And as to the rumor of American cars using more fuel, the General Motors 5.7 liter, 405hp LS6 does 27 miles to the gallon. The 7.0 liter LS7 is due for better specs all around, but it's due Q3-4.

Edit: Posting in a quote. I don't wanna be a post-whore.


ok seriously, a tuned nissan skyline can make 350+ BHP out of a 2.5L engine, and take it upwards of 190+ Mph and still use less than half the fuel of a yank-tank V8 5.0L
For one, the RB26DETT is 2.6 liters, hence the 26 in the name. A pair of R33's hold the world 0-60 and 0-200 records (edit: for pro-modified), both with over 1200 hp. They don't have very good milage anymore. Measured GPM, instead of MPG.

THough, the GT-R's never had any good milage. Unlike the GTS-T's and base models, it was designed as a sports car. Especially the N1's. The 1999 R34 GT-R for example, getting (a combined) 22 MPG from the factory. THen consider it's output of 276hp. I guess turbos have never been good on milage though.


either that or a simple mind cant get good performance out of a sub 2 litre engine, so they stick a big engine in it to avoid applying any intellect to the problem.
There are very few cars getting any decent performance out of a 2.0 liter engine. Most in the former glory days of Formula 1's tubo '80s, and the WRC past. None doing it naturally asperated. Don't talk about the Honda F20C or Mazda 13B. Both are riddled by problems. The F20C incapible of braking 100 pound feet untill 6500 RPM. Much good it does to the launch there. A good launch is posible though - if you really want a new clutch.

Though it's not like American companys can't build an efficiant engine. Last I checked, Ford holds the record for F1 wins as an engine builder. 194 wins. It's one of only three makes to every win a 1-2-3 at Le Mans (Porsche of '72 and Audi of '04 are the others). It's a dominant force in rally. It makes over 2 billion a quarter. With those funds, it could do whatever it wanted in terms of engineering. The topic always brung up is the cost. a SC46 costs something like $250 in materials for Ford to build. A 3.0 liter Cosworth V10 on the other hand, is estimated at over 5 million a peice.

[VSpecII]

I thought they get more from Venezuala, Canada, and Mexico combined than from Middle Eastern countries combined.
Canada and Mexico are in North America. I'm just assuming he's talking about external sources.

[STEvil]

vauxhall nova 1.6 twin-turbo,
Sounds fun, they have any problems with the pistons burning up?


quarter the weight of any yank-tank,
1/2 maybe, really depends on what car you chose to put it up against.


would blow away any V8 off the starting line,
A function of gear ratios, torque, flywheel weight, traction, etc.. i'd be more inclined to say the V-8 will win due to increased traction if gear ratios are not of concern.


would be half-way there before the big ol' gas-guzzler hit 2nd gear.
The 1.6 twin turbo probably doesnt have much torque, so now you have to take weight to HP and weight to torgue ratios into consideration as well as flywheel weight again and transmission ratios..


in a magazine i saw the times of a nova 1.8 Gsi, 0-60 in 5.5sec and 150mph top speed.
In a magazine I saw a mac beat a PC for media encoding. :D


all that from a little car :) the 1.6 twin turbo would be even better acceleration though
Not bad really, but you are bashing on "yank-tanks" to be blunt.. its a really good idea to do some homework on just what influences acceleration and fuel efficiency before saying car A is better than car B though ;).


Just on a side note, 100mph is not hard at all.. my old Chevy pickup did 200kph with ease (somewhere over 110mph iirc) and had more to go.. thats just a normally aspirated 350cid V-8 with a 650cfm Holly carb and a mild RV cam. Cant say it was very fuel efficient (it wasnt) but the "yank-tanks" you find now are far more powerfull than that was and are far more fuel efficient also... let alone what you could do by swapping the rear axle or changing gear ratios. :stick:

[hollywood]

Actually, North America gets most of their fuel from Middle Eastern countries.


Wrong, I've worked with both the USGS and the Department of Energy, that is an out and out fallacy.

We get about 25% of our oil from Middle Eastern nations. The rest is Domestic / Canada (Oil Shale production) and South America.

People...PLEASE educate yourselves before speaking.

And Treble, just like you think everyone in America drives a 1973 Cadillac V8 with our 65mph speedlimits, I think every Englishman looks and speaks like Austin Powers, you all drink Tea and can't play basketball.... ;)


Matter of fact, there are only 6 American cars with a V8 these days.

Chevy Caprice, Ford / Mercury Grand Marquie, Mustang GT, Corvette C5/6, Pontiac Bonneville.

Most other cars use V-6s and inline 4s. Diesel is for Tractor-Trailers (Lorrie) and every other vehicle is a truck or SUV.

What I can say is that people need to get the hell over the whole "My SUV is bigger than yours" thing. As I hate the road-hogging soccer moms on the highway driving a 7000lb. vehicle like it's her old sedan.

[VSpecII]

Chevy Caprice, Ford / Mercury Grand Marquie, Mustang GT, Corvette C5/6, Pontiac Bonneville.
Mustang Cobra, Ford GT, Holde... err... Pontiac GTO, Chrysler 300C, Dodge Magnum, Lincoln LS, and the Ford Thunderbird.

I wond add the Lincoln Town Car, because it's just a derivitive of the Ford Crown Vic, or the Chevy SSR because I don't know if it's a car or truck.

[hollywood]

Mustang Cobra, Ford GT, Holde... err... Pontiac GTO, Chrysler 300C, Dodge Magnum, Lincoln LS, and the Ford Thunderbird.

I wond add the Lincoln Town Car, because it's just a derivitive of the Ford Crown Vic, or the Chevy SSR because I don't know if it's a car or truck.


THanks for wrapping that up...I knew I missed a few.

And yeah...I'm glad GM is FINALLY bringing in some of those HOT Holdens from Oz. Isn't the GTO the Commodore or Senator or something???

I want the new Holden Astra...I don't know why they don't sell them in the States, as they have WAAAAY better styling than the GM crap sold here.

[zabomb4163]

vauxhall nova 1.6 twin-turbo, quarter the weight of any yank-tank, would blow away any V8 off the starting line, would be half-way there before the big ol' gas-guzzler hit 2nd gear.

in a magazine i saw the times of a nova 1.8 Gsi, 0-60 in 5.5sec and 150mph top speed.



http://www.fast-autos.net/chevrolet/chevroletcorvettez06.html

0-60 mph: 4.0 sec
Top Speed: 171 mph
Miles Per Gallon: 28 mpg

what kind of gas mileage does the vauxhall nova get?

[[XC]thewildblue]

What do you drive then trebleking ? Vauxhall Novas are chav cars over here in the Uk even if they are tweaked (which is done usually by ripping another engine out of a different car). I personally wouldnt even p1ss on one if it was on fire.

[bxa121]

i think the issue thats emerging here is not something to do with comparable cars etc
i think its an issue to do with fuel efficiency and emmisions ratings.
i dont mean to bash but i personally think that with the Kyoto agreement of fuel emissions being broken gives the impression that the us doenst care about the environment...

http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/28619/story.htm

it is known that the us is one of the worst offenders of emissions in the planet too

quote
"Documents presented to international negotiators in Bonn, Germany, show Canada, Japan and the United States are responsible for 85 per cent of carbon dioxide emission growth since 1990. "
end quote http://www.carleton.ca/~tpatters/teaching/climatechange/culprits.html

so i guess its an issue with the preservation of the environment rather than why guzzle more gas if it makes no difference to performance?

p.s FYI here is a rough idea of how long we got to go B4 oil runs out.
see fig 24
http://www.schoolscience.co.uk/content/4/chemistry/fossils/p12.html

$0.02

[STEvil]

I havent heard much on the positive side for Kyoto.. it looks like a lot of political smoke from what a lot of people are saying up here, but i've not read any of it personally so I may be somewhat off base in saying that.

With that said, I really dont think emissions are so much of an environmental concern as they are a health hazard. Proof in the pudding would be we are all suffering from cancer, the trees are still doing fine when we dont cut them down.

[JBREAKS]

the atom owns all cars ever made 0-60 2.9secs :banana:

[bxa121]

so i heard!
300bhp and its 500kg = 600bhp per ton!
plus its road legal in uk! - i think theres a factory in surry.. dunno.
saw it on top gear! ;)

[I²K]

I'm really a fan of american muscle cars. I'd prefer a Mustang over an S-Class or SL. I prefer cylinder capacity (right word?) over turbo charger. I prefer sound that comes from the enigine than from the exhaust.

But there are nice europena cars too! http://www.lambocars.com/gallardo/gallardos.htm

Depends on how you like to drive...

[Big Deel]

I'm really a fan of american muscle cars. I'd prefer a Mustang over an S-Class or SL. I prefer cylinder capacity (right word?) over turbo charger. I prefer sound that comes from the enigine than from the exhaust.

But there are nice europena cars too! http://www.lambocars.com/gallardo/gallardos.htm

Depends on how you like to drive...

I think what you want to say is there is no replacement for displacement
bigger is always better

[JBREAKS]

bxa121 clarksons face was so funny init man bet thats a buzz

[lalPOOO]

Well, I don't have anything too intelligent to add to this thread, other then that fact that I wouldn't want to drive this:
http://www.ayrshore.com/events2002/billing/DSCN0958_thumb.jpg
I know its not all about looks, but when you compare the Nova Vauxhall to something like the 2005 mustang.... http://www.caribooford.ca/library/images/org/6750/2005%20Mustang.jpg

[hollywood]

Well, I don't have anything too intelligent to add to this thread, other then that fact that I wouldn't want to drive this:
http://www.ayrshore.com/events2002/billing/DSCN0958_thumb.jpg
I know its not all about looks, but when you compare the Nova Vauxhall to something like the 2005 mustang.... http://www.caribooford.ca/library/images/org/6750/2005%20Mustang.jpg




Yeah...the '05 Mustang made me actually like the Mustang for the first time since '73.

[I²K]

http://membres.lycos.fr/fordmustang/mustangv8/photos/1967%20GT%20500%20Shelby%20Mustang%202.jpg
Who cares about 2005???

[Rippthrough]

And its no coicidence that the '05 mustang has European engineers....

[Big Deel]

Vauxhall Nova pff......
We are not permited drive our "go-carts" on the road in America.

where did "THETROUBLEKING" go ?

[TheTrebleKing]

thats a bad example of a nova :P

now heres a good nova, sexy as hell.

http://www.novaload.net/images/car_images/2268big.jpg
http://www.novaload.net/images/car_images/2268big2.jpg
http://www.novaload.net/images/car_images/2268big3.jpg
http://www.novaload.net/images/car_images/2268big4.jpg
http://www.novaload.net/images/car_images/2268big5.jpg

looks loads better than that other thing u posted :D

[TheTrebleKing]

another great european car... the Peugeot 307.

http://www.ecosse-peugeot.co.uk/products/307/bodykits/nickel_4.jpg

and the Peugeot 206

http://www.ecosse-peugeot.co.uk/products/206/bodykits/impact_6.jpg

also a damn fine example of British car design, the TVR! http://www.mental-motors.com/images/event04/fuelpart/tvrs.jpg

[Big Deel]

I do not know one member of my family that would enjoy driving that spec of a car.It loks like a old Ford Fiesta with a body kit...ROTFLMAO.
I hate to think what the women would say if i pulled up in that.

O well different strokes for......................

[I²K]

Mhh, Opel sucks :D

http://www.wrxfanatics.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=295406

[jaawood]

What you have in the vauxhaul nova is a small compact city car, that can carry one or two people. It is not made for a family, or even haul very much stuff. The U.S. has its fair share of small cars too...chevy cavalier for example, that also get great gas mileage. This is a huge misconception of the U.S. We do have big cars, and we do use a lot of gas, but we also have nearly 300 million people, so what do you expect? The EU has what, about 400 million? Correct me if I am wrong, but that means the U.S. uses a lot of gas compared to all the little European countries, so the analogy you are using is a bit unfair.

Auto manufactures make big cars because they appeal to people who want to carry a lot, tow a big trailer, or simply drive a big car (soccor moms, hehe). Yes they do use more gas, but not nearly as much as the older v8s used to use. Take the new corvette for example. That car has the best power/gas mileage ratio of any muscle car that I know of, and it's still priced at about $50k. For me personally, I drive a '99 silverado. I use it to tow trailers, and haul building supplies, etc., things that a nova couldn't ever do. I like the luxury of having a big car, that can protect you in an accident, and besides, at being 6'4" I fit in it a lot better that smaller cars. I get somewhere around 22 mpg highway, and 18 mpg in the city, but it is worth it to me to drive my truck instead of a smaller car that I might get 7 or 8 more mpg out of.

I think it is a big generalistic thing to say that the U.S. doesn't care about the environmnet because we supposedly drive big cars. The U.S. does have some of the most strict emissions laws of any country in the world, and our government has passed laws to limit manufacturing pollution and emissions from other vehicles other than cars. About 80% of the pollution created is not even by vehicles of any kind. Instead it is created by manufacturing plants, oil refineries, etc. which the citizens have no control over.

The rest of the world isn't exact perfect, either. I believe it was mentioned earlier, but with the increased amount of cars being driven in both China and Russia, could contribute to world wide petrolium useage as well. While Russia is only about half the size of the U.S. in terms of population, it is one of the fastest growing industrial nations in the world.

It puzzles me why people pick on the U.S. so much....

[eddy]

and most of the oil pollution in the world is at the bottom of the ocean floor.
did you know that? it's the truth.

And hollywood, you're right about where the United States gets their oil.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/rankings/crudebycountry.htm

[VSpecII]

THanks for wrapping that up...I knew I missed a few.

And yeah...I'm glad GM is FINALLY bringing in some of those HOT Holdens from Oz. Isn't the GTO the Commodore or Senator or something???

I want the new Holden Astra...I don't know why they don't sell them in the States, as they have WAAAAY better styling than the GM crap sold here.
The Pontiac GTO is the Holden Monaro (Or the HSV (Holden Special Vehicles) GTO) in Australia, and the Vauxhall Monaro in Europe.

[VSpecII]

the atom owns all cars ever made 0-60 2.9secs :banana:
Ford Mustang Boss 10.0L - 0-60: 1.9 seconds. 3 were made of it, and 69 were made of the Camaro ZL1 (Phase III LS6...) it competed against.

[I²K]

The Pontiac GTO is the Holden Monaro (Or the HSV (Holden Special Vehicles) GTO) in Australia, and the Vauxhall Monaro in Europe.
UK. Rest of europe calls them Opel not Vauxhall i think.

http://www.supercars.net/cars/1994@$Ford@$Mustang%20Boss%2010.0L%20%20Conceptx.h tml

[ashapirox]

I have a BMW. I love BMW. It's also a hybrid. I actually shipped it from europe. It is bigger then the USA sedans and takes in 1/4 thier fuel and still 150 MpH.
Insurance is high as hell though...

[oqy77]

Nowadays, most American Car Companies cant be called 100% "american", Look at GM, how many companies that are owned by GM? Holden, Saab, Daewoo, Suzuki just to name a few. Chrysler? well cmiiw but is it owned 50-50 with Daimler (mercedes) ?

In fact yes .. I do agree there's no replacement for displacement. My dream engine is a BIG BLOCK V8. Nothing can sound as good as a big block v8 engine. I think its sounds like low pitch B-FLAT .... Good for your heart and mind, but it will tear your ears if you're not careful.

IMHO, v8 engines produces lots and lots of torque. Its the torque that moves your car, not the HP. Even for that, I have trouble convincing some people that if you want to buy cars, look for the torque power, not the HP, because it will scream your engine out to reach that amount of HP (for instance, a 200HP Honda S2000 revs up to 9000rpm to reach that power, bad for engine-life).
I think that's why V8 MUSCLE is coming back to our lives.

peace!
-oqy-

[VSpecII]

IMHO, v8 engines produces lots and lots of torque. Its the torque that moves your car, not the HP. Even for that, I have trouble convincing some people that if you want to buy cars, look for the torque power, not the HP, because it will scream your engine out to reach that amount of HP (for instance, a 200HP Honda S2000 revs up to 9000rpm to reach that power, bad for engine-life).
I think that's why V8 MUSCLE is coming back to our lives.
After 10-odd MPH, torque matters nothing. Horsepower, weight, and drag are practically the only factors that matter in vehicular acceleration. That because torque is only one factor, while horsepower takes it and motion into consideration. Thats not peak horsepower mind you. Though peak power and torque figures can give a good indicator of the curve. For example, the Honda F20C's power curve is concave, whilst the LS6's is convex. The LS6 making more low and mid range power has better low-end acceleration - after the power differences are factored in.

(torque*RPM)/5252 = horsepower, or 33000 pound-feet per hour.

[hollywood]

thats a bad example of a nova :P

now heres a good nova, sexy as hell.

http://www.novaload.net/images/car_images/2268big.jpg


looks loads better than that other thing u posted :D

You have GOT to be F-ing kidding me!!!!!


THAT HORRID THING!!! Why oh why does it have a wing on the top of the hatch??? If it was to have ANYTHING up there it would be a lip spoiler.

That front end looks like it belongs in some 16-year olds ricer wet dream!!!!

[STEvil]

(torque*RPM)/5252 = horsepower

Did you leave part of the formula out? Being that horsepower and torque curves in no way represent each other as that formula indicates i'm inclinded to believe you just made a simple mistake..

[hollywood]

and most of the oil pollution in the world is at the bottom of the ocean floor.
did you know that? it's the truth.

And hollywood, you're right about where the United States gets their oil.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/rankings/crudebycountry.htm


DID ALL THE "BASH THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE WE INVADE FOR OIL" PEOPLE SEE THAT!?!?!?!?!?!??!


Thank God someone took the time to find FACTS.

Eddy, my man!!! Hit me up one mo' again!!!!
;)


Also...Many of us here in the United States NEED large vehicles. Because unlike Europe, which has been largly developed for the last 1000 years. We here in the USA are STILL BUILDING A NATION! We are very young and are still growing.

We have Farmers, Contractors, Lumberjacks, Carpenters, etc....who are ALWAYS needing to haul things to build our country. Only the coasts are as densly populated as Europe, besides the coasts, we have ALOT of space to fill. Think about that for a while... ;)

[oqy77]

After 10-odd MPH, torque matters nothing. Horsepower, weight, and drag are practically the only factors that matter in vehicular acceleration. That because torque is only one factor, while horsepower takes it and motion into consideration. Thats not peak horsepower mind you. Though peak power and torque figures can give a good indicator of the curve. For example, the Honda F20C's power curve is concave, whilst the LS6's is convex. The LS6 making more low and mid range power has better low-end acceleration - after the power differences are factored in.



Well. I see it.. thanks for putting that in, but we still need torque if we are accelerating from the top gear in low speeds though, this is normally what we drive everyday, we didn't "scream" the engine to the max RPM every moment right?
Off course, when it comes to racing engines, the HP factor will be much more prominent. In case of Drag Racings, because the torque is so big, they must pust wheelie bars or else the car will just flip. They reach 60mph in less than a second. Well, I think that's because of torque, and the Max SPeed is around 380MPH, I think that's the HP factor comes right?

[dqniel]

I have a BMW. I love BMW. It's also a hybrid. I actually shipped it from europe. It is bigger then the USA sedans and takes in 1/4 thier fuel and still 150 MpH.
Insurance is high as hell though...

where'd that statistic come from? haha. "1/4 thier fuel"

I agree and disagree with everything being said. We do have too many cars that guzzle gas, but it's not our sports cars that need to be bashed. It isn't common to see a NEW sports car being driven around that has horrible gas milage. The cars that guzzle gas are SUVs and trucks intended for working purposes. However, there isn't much getting around using the trucks, only the SUVs. I think everything is fine the way it is in the US with autos (tons of little fast cars, tons of little economy cars, a few big sports cars, etc...a nice balance) other than the production of bigger and bigger SUVs. SUVs which are targeted at average consumers (unlike the f350, which is targeted at audiences as a work truck) are too popular and do consume too much gas. Other than that, we are in good shape. We have tons of cars that are still fast and efficient, most of them being newer designs. The US may not have cared about emissions and consumption in the past, but I don't see why people keep bringing up our V8s like they are still common. This isn't the 70's anymore...the US has changed A LOT, especially in the last 5-10 years.

[olfen]

why don't you just buy a diesel car, you get the torque, they don't take much fuel and they can go way past 150mph

[Rippthrough]

Did you leave part of the formula out? Being that horsepower and torque curves in no way represent each other as that formula indicates i'm inclinded to believe you just made a simple mistake..


Err no, thats right, horsepower is DIRECTLY dependent upon torque and engine speed.

And whoever says you should look at torque figures not HP figures is wrong too - torque AT THE WHEELS, not the flywheel is what moves your car, and is dependent upon gearing. Guess what? HP figures compensate for the gearing your car can run, torque does not.

[oqy77]

back to topic ....For me ... I like American Cars. They're big and because I'm big also. Even if I'm small, I just like BIG American cars ....


US may not have cared about emissions and consumption in the past, but I don't see why people keep bringing up our V8s like they are still common. This isn't the 70's anymore...the US has changed A LOT, especially in the last 5-10 years.

So why are there are new Mustangs, SUV's with big blocks, and GTO or the upcoming Charger? New technology has brought high-emissions V8's to a new lo-low standards...
that's why classic 60's era muscle is coming back, because now they have the technology to bring V8's to rule once again. In the 60's .. who had an all-aluminium engine block? DOHC, EFI just to name a few .....

[Poki]

Before I bash the American engineers too much i must admit in the last 5-10 years the technology has improved drastically on the automotive front however...

Things that contribute to American automotive (lack of) engineering are:
Many Americans absolute FEAR of driving smaller/lighter vehicles on roads with so many others that have little to no driving skills or aren't paying any attention to thier surroundings.(IE: talking on cell or watching DVD while driving to name two)
Poor drivers which have no expectation of decent handling car.
Poor drivers that haven't the aptitude/desire to operate a manual gearbox.
Big long straight highways all over the place which aren't the least bit interesting to drive. (Which is why so many cars were designed in the past here to drive straight and smooth only)
Fuel economy completly pivots on the price of fuel/EPA regulations. Americans aren't willing to pay extra for a more effecient engine that took x,xxx,xxx dollars to develope.

Alot of the current technolgy we have here now was brought/bought from europe/asia with purchases of different companies sharing knowledge not our R&D. :(

I'm glad to see we've made some progress with pushrod engine effeciency (LS series/Hemi) but why beat a dead horse? A 4-5.0 liter SOHC V8 with light valvetrain would be more effcient than that old tech. /end of rant/

I've had muscle cars/SUVs/bikes/sports cars so i would like to think i'm not very biased on one or the other, i just wish we would try to be a leader in technical development. As it is now we're dragging old tech decade to decade.

[hollywood]

why don't you just buy a diesel car, you get the torque, they don't take much fuel and they can go way past 150mph


Because in America we can't buy diesel cars, or if we can they are extremely rare and wouldn't sell well due to poor US consumer perceptions of Diesel motors.

In the USA consumer vehicles use gasoline...not diesel. Only big trucks are seen as fit for diesel in the average citizens mind.

Also...just because we reject Kyoto doesn't mean that some of our environmental laws are so strict that they go BEYOND Kyoto protocols. We simply don't need to be bound up in some international "Pollution credit" exchange system. The EPA will take care of regulating things quite nicely thank you very much.

[STEvil]

Err no, thats right, horsepower is DIRECTLY dependent upon torque and engine speed.

And whoever says you should look at torque figures not HP figures is wrong too - torque AT THE WHEELS, not the flywheel is what moves your car, and is dependent upon gearing. Guess what? HP figures compensate for the gearing your car can run, torque does not.

Ok, let me lay this out really clealy for you..

Your forumula states that horsepower and torque are functions of each other and do not vary from your formula.

Anyone who has half a brain knows that torque and horspower do not increase/decrease in the fashion your formula says it does. Your formula says that the HP/Torque curves will be exact replicas of each other in all cases, which is drop dead wrong.

All you need to do is look at graph put out by a dyno to see that torque can be more than horsepower, horsepower can be more than torque, both can be equal, and that both their curves can happen at different RPM ranges only crossing/intersecting at a few points.

Torque and horsepower are not related to each other besides the fact they both serve the purpose of the moving the vehicle forwards. :stick:

A really great example of this is the 1.0L turbo 10,000rpm all horsepower gasonline engine vs. the 8.0L deisel which probably has as much horsepower as that screamer has torque, but has over gobs of torque for pulling around a lot of weight.

On the left is what your formula suggest of all engines and setups.

On the right is what is more typical. Red is "horsepower" blue is "torque"

[I²K]

It's difficult to explain the difference between both.

HP is what give you the speed. Torque tells you how much weight you can acclerate to this speed.

[olfen]

I driving alot, always been driving gasoline but then I tried diesel, I can only say you can't find a better engine for everyday driving, i've been driving both the E320 cdi, E270cdi and E220cdi in work and they all work perfect, it's no big deal driving under 5litres/100kilometres, and you can drive above 200km/h without a single problem,

[VSpecII]

Did you leave part of the formula out? Being that horsepower and torque curves in no way represent each other as that formula indicates i'm inclinded to believe you just made a simple mistake..
They are directly related. 33,000 pound feet per minute (after double checking, the above was incorrect...) is one horsepower. That formula is for radial power.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question622.htm

See the bold print.

[STEvil]

To get from pound-feet of torque to horsepower, you need to go through a few conversions. The number 5,252 is the result of lumping several different conversion factors together into one number.

First, 1 horsepower is defined as 550 foot-pounds per second (read How Horsepower Works to find out how they got that number). The units of torque are pound-feet. So to get from torque to horsepower, you need the "per second" term. You get that by multiplying the torque by the engine speed.

But engine speed is normally referred to in revolutions per minute (RPM). Since we want a "per second," we need to convert RPMs to "something per second." The seconds are easy -- we just divide by 60 to get from minutes to seconds. Now what we need is a dimensionless unit for revolutions: a radian. A radian is actually a ratio of the length of an arc divided by the length of a radius, so the units of length cancel out and you're left with a dimensionless measure.

You can think of a revolution as a measurement of an angle. One revolution is 360 degrees of a circle. Since the circumference of a circle is (2 x pi x radius), there are 2-pi radians in a revolution. To convert revolutions per minute to radians per second, you multiply RPM by (2-pi/60), which equals 0.10472 radians per second. This gives us the "per second" we need to calculate horsepower.

Let's put this all together. We need to get to horsepower, which is 550 foot-pounds per second, using torque (pound-feet) and engine speed (RPM). If we divide the 550 foot-pounds by the 0.10472 radians per second (engine speed), we get 550/0.10472, which equals 5,252.

So, by the link you provided you show us that your formula is flawed. You indicated that it happens all the time, whereas this text shows is that it happens per second and is influenced by RPM's. Your post did not mention this and so implied the formula was a set value of "5252" when in actuality that number varies as RPM's increase and decrease.


Now, given that, you can make modifications to vehicles that will increase torque and not horsepower or horsepower and not torque... or increase/decrease them each independantly of the other.

Is it just me or does the entire link seem incorrect then?

[VSpecII]

So, by the link you provided you show us that your formula is flawed. You indicated that it happens all the time, whereas this text shows is that it happens per second and is influenced by RPM's. Your post did not mention this and so implied the formula was a set value of "5252" when in actuality that number varies as RPM's increase and decrease.


Now, given that, you can make modifications to vehicles that will increase torque and not horsepower or horsepower and not torque... or increase/decrease them each independantly of the other.

Is it just me or does the entire link seem incorrect then?
Way to missread things. After they stated that one horsepower was 550 pounds-feet per secod, and then converted RPM to radians-per second, they found the turnover to be 5252.

That is the constant and universal turnover. Piriod.

[VSpecII]

I just noticed....

I'm arguing about cars on XtremeSystems, and overclocking on Supercars.net....

I feel weird.

[STEvil]

unfortunately you are still incorrect and miss my point.


One revolution is 360 degrees of a circle. Since the circumference of a circle is (2 x pi x radius), there are 2-pi radians in a revolution. To convert revolutions per minute to radians per second, you multiply RPM by (2-pi/60), which equals 0.10472 radians per second. This gives us the "per second" we need to calculate horsepower.

They calculated for 4000rpm.

[VSpecII]

unfortunately you are still incorrect and miss my point.



They calculated for 4000rpm.
"To convert revolutions per minute to radians per second, you multiply RPM by (2-pi/60), which equals 0.10472 radians per second"
So, according to this, you multiply 4000 by (2-pi/60) to get 0.10472? Why, that sounds right. They did ONE RPM times that. Do it yourself if you wish.

If you do 4000*(2PI/60), you should come up with a number around 420. This is incorrect.

They used 4000RPM as an example. A car making 300 pound-feen at 4000RPM. The calculation resulting being (300*4000)/5252, which equals 228HP.

[STEvil]

ok, never mind... i'm wrong... doh ;)

EDIT

Should have linked to "how horsepower works" too.. ;)

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/horsepower.htm

[dqniel]

back to topic ....For me ... I like American Cars. They're big and because I'm big also. Even if I'm small, I just like BIG American cars ....



So why are there are new Mustangs, SUV's with big blocks, and GTO or the upcoming Charger? New technology has brought high-emissions V8's to a new lo-low standards...
that's why classic 60's era muscle is coming back, because now they have the technology to bring V8's to rule once again. In the 60's .. who had an all-aluminium engine block? DOHC, EFI just to name a few .....

First of all, I said I agreed that SUVs' increasing production is bad. Second of all, compare the EMISSIONS (emissions isn't just consumption) of our newest engines to those of the 70's that you like to pretend we all still drive. The new engines are much, much more efficient. Lastly, the cars you are talking about (the v8 mustang, gto, charger) aren't exactly cars you see the common man driving around in every day in the US. You see a lot of mustangs, but not the v8s. Pulling examples of a few new cars that eat a lot of gas in the US is not exactly looking at it from a wide perspective. That's like saying the europe is bad for the world because of ferrari, lamborghini, bentley, etc.

[amduser]

Because in America we can't buy diesel cars, or if we can they are extremely rare and wouldn't sell well due to poor US consumer perceptions of Diesel motors.

In the USA consumer vehicles use gasoline...not diesel. Only big trucks are seen as fit for diesel in the average citizens mind.

Also...just because we reject Kyoto doesn't mean that some of our environmental laws are so strict that they go BEYOND Kyoto protocols. We simply don't need to be bound up in some international "Pollution credit" exchange system. The EPA will take care of regulating things quite nicely thank you very much.

are u sure, no diesel, wtf. and you play worldpolice :rolleyes: . diesel is all you need (*2,5l tdi i have, and it has mor power i need and sound comes out of the enging*). diesel engine are way better then gasoline, efiecent as hell and going really fast and are getting with the new genertion of cars even more powerfull then gasoline engine (*no joke, there will be a w12 6L diesel with turbolader in the new s-klasse :slobber: *).

edit: some other intersting thinks:
vauxhall=opel and belong to gm... (*so the nove actually is american*)
new golf gti ist awsome, 2,0l, 200ps and drivingcontrol of it is a dream, but the price is quite high, 25k € at a minimum.

last time i was in usa, there where only big cars to lend, and the insit was smaller then in a golf 2, quite strange (*was 5 years ago in florida, and car looked new*).

most inhabitens in america as less mony then in europe, so no mony for good cars.

and once for all, so long america irgnores kyoto, european standers for emmision are better. it's simple, a jette ist incridble expensiv here in europe abd doesn't fit to the euro norm2 thow. only one and thats a real bad one :rolleyes: .

[MongoWookie]

http://www.junkscience.com/news2/eulead.htm
This is interesting because we've been using Unleaded Fuel here in America for over twenty years and have already implemented Catylist monitoring computers in all of our cars since 1995 which was the begining of the OBD II emissions standard. Not everybody here drives big cars here, thank you. Many people are going for the imports anyway.

[Der_KHAN]

are u sure, no diesel, wtf. and you play worldpolice :rolleyes: . diesel is all you need (*2,5l tdi i have, and it has mor power i need and sound comes out of the enging*). diesel engine are way better then gasoline, efiecent as hell and going really fast and are getting with the new genertion of cars even more powerfull then gasoline engine (*no joke, there will be a w12 6L diesel with turbolader in the new s-klasse :slobber: *).

edit: some other intersting thinks:
vauxhall=opel and belong to gm... (*so the nove actually is american*)
new golf gti ist awsome, 2,0l, 200ps and drivingcontrol of it is a dream, but the price is quite high, 25k € at a minimum.

last time i was in usa, there where only big cars to lend, and the insit was smaller then in a golf 2, quite strange (*was 5 years ago in florida, and car looked new*).

most inhabitens in america as less mony then in europe, so no mony for good cars.

and once for all, so long america irgnores kyoto, european standers for emmision are better. it's simple, a jette ist incridble expensiv here in europe abd doesn't fit to the euro norm2 thow. only one and thats a real bad one :rolleyes: .

so in short your diesel car is the best in the world and the us worldpolice is killing the planet!? i see ...

[sjohnson]

My (European) horsepower is bigger than your (US) horspower!

No! My (US) horspower is bigger than your (European) horspower!

Sounds like a big pile of horse-powerful-stink to me.

All of you with little horsepowers (*you* know who you are), go to bed! Now!

roflmaotime reading this thread. Wow! ;) :cool: ;)

[hollywood]

are u sure, no diesel, wtf. and you play worldpolice :rolleyes: . diesel is all you need (*2,5l tdi i have, and it has mor power i need and sound comes out of the enging*). diesel engine are way better then gasoline, efiecent as hell and going really fast and are getting with the new genertion of cars even more powerfull then gasoline engine (*no joke, there will be a w12 6L diesel with turbolader in the new s-klasse :slobber: *).

edit: some other intersting thinks:
vauxhall=opel and belong to gm... (*so the nove actually is american*)
new golf gti ist awsome, 2,0l, 200ps and drivingcontrol of it is a dream, but the price is quite high, 25k € at a minimum.

last time i was in usa, there where only big cars to lend, and the insit was smaller then in a golf 2, quite strange (*was 5 years ago in florida, and car looked new*).

most inhabitens in america as less mony then in europe, so no mony for good cars.

and once for all, so long america irgnores kyoto, european standers for emmision are better. it's simple, a jette ist incridble expensiv here in europe abd doesn't fit to the euro norm2 thow. only one and thats a real bad one :rolleyes: .


And I bet you wear a pointy helmet and eat braunwurst for breakfast everyday.

Stereotypes are idiotic. In the USA we drive MORE Japanese and European makes than domestic as a whole. We have the worlds MOST STRICT emmissions standards AND they are getting tougher in 2008.

Kyoto doesn't mean sh|te. It's nothing but feelgood Politically correct UN pap.

[amduser]

nope, i mean, gazolin car can'T be could it it's strange for me, why you guy can't drive it. i don't mean something else and by the way, america is playing wolrdpuplice, in nearly all wars there were involded since about 30years (*think about it, and why terrorist hate you now, it's the them think that we german alway compared to baverian which are actually living in a small part of germany and all german's are nazi's :rolleyes: *).

you wan't to here somethink for sterotype, ok, cause i'm halfpolish i get nearly everyday in school called a thief even thow of that guys there noone earn that much then my and i don't need to steal cause i earn pretty much with extrajobs and my parent's are not poor. so just life with it, that americans are bold fat guys driving pointless v8 (*thats whats your sterotype in the world...*) for unstanding persons.

in usa drive many european and japanese cars, sure but in extra us.versions. there is stuff of therem that we don't even see here in europe. ok, mayby my english is not the best, but at least i hope you understand more would i mean.

and most strickt emission standers for cars are in japan by the way and the most strickt emission standert for any kind of industry are in germany (*thats why it's so exepnsinv to produce s.th. here*). kyoto is know sh|t by the way, it'S acording not only to cars but to industry what you guys over there don't get like it looks. so long your emision grow ther is somethink wrong with your thinking...

[jaawood]

nope, i mean, gazolin car can'T be could it it's strange for me, why you guy can't drive it. i don't mean something else and by the way, america is playing wolrdpuplice, in nearly all wars there were involded since about 30years (*think about it, and why terrorist hate you now, it's the them think that we german alway compared to baverian which are actually living in a small part of germany and all german's are nazi's :rolleyes: *).

you wan't to here somethink for sterotype, ok, cause i'm halfpolish i get nearly everyday in school called a thief even thow of that guys there noone earn that much then my and i don't need to steal cause i earn pretty much with extrajobs and my parent's are not poor. so just life with it, that americans are bold fat guys driving pointless v8 (*thats whats your sterotype in the world...*) for unstanding persons.

in usa drive many european and japanese cars, sure but in extra us.versions. there is stuff of therem that we don't even see here in europe. ok, mayby my english is not the best, but at least i hope you understand more would i mean.

and most strickt emission standers for cars are in japan by the way and the most strickt emission standert for any kind of industry are in germany (*thats why it's so exepnsinv to produce s.th. here*). kyoto is know sh|t by the way, it'S acording not only to cars but to industry what you guys over there don't get like it looks. so long your emision grow ther is somethink wrong with your thinking...

Dude, chill out, you don't need to get pissed about the whole thing. It's just a discussion. The U.S. does not play world police. The U.S. protects its interests in the world, and comes to the aid of other countries when they ask (Vietnam). Do not blame the U.S. for protecting itself, expecially since your coutry tried to take over the whole world twice in the 20th century. Last time I checked, the U.S. never tried what Germany did in WWI and WWII.

No one is stereotypinig Europe, or anyone who lives there. The only stereotyping taking place is of the U.S., and it is completely wrong. More people own cars in the U.S. per capita compared to most countries, so it makes since that we have higher fuel consumption, and more emissions. However, it is a gross generalization to say that most of the cars here are gas guzzling SUVs. We have our share of small cars here as well, and yes, they are mostly gas. Gasoline is cheaper here, at least in alaska, but that may not be true in other parts of the U.S. Diesels also produce much worse emissions that gasoline engines, so it is no wonder that they are exempt from the strict emissions tests that gasoline engines have to pass. Diesel technology is advancing, and that is good, but it is hard to get people to switch to diesel from gas, expecially when the price is not very different, whereas in Europe it is.

[amduser]

Dude, chill out, you don't need to get pissed about the whole thing. It's just a discussion. The U.S. does not play world police. The U.S. protects its interests in the world, and comes to the aid of other countries when they ask (Vietnam). Do not blame the U.S. for protecting itself, expecially since your coutry tried to take over the whole world twice in the 20th century. Last time I checked, the U.S. never tried what Germany did in WWI and WWII.

No one is stereotypinig Europe, or anyone who lives there. The only stereotyping taking place is of the U.S., and it is completely wrong. More people own cars in the U.S. per capita compared to most countries, so it makes since that we have higher fuel consumption, and more emissions. However, it is a gross generalization to say that most of the cars here are gas guzzling SUVs. We have our share of small cars here as well, and yes, they are mostly gas. Gasoline is cheaper here, at least in alaska, but that may not be true in other parts of the U.S. Diesels also produce much worse emissions that gasoline engines, so it is no wonder that they are exempt from the strict emissions tests that gasoline engines have to pass. Diesel technology is advancing, and that is good, but it is hard to get people to switch to diesel from gas, expecially when the price is not very different, whereas in Europe it is.

yes, yes, it'S 50years ago, and i'm not really pissed of. iraq for exmple never ask for help, vietnam actually to not. it was in vietnam just a whole west against east think and east won. them think was in germany, when it was divided in two countrie, only here has won west. never heared about coldwar. i'm actually talking baout other countires, like panama (*even it's free know, it gets controlled by usa*). iraq and afganistan are to country wich had no need for your help, and you guy's just atacted them cause of facts that even we german (*our mad (*antispythink*) and bnd (*spystuff**) are not as good as cia etc. should*) got out that it total rubish you got out there. your media is even controlled by us goverment. it not free any more (*20years ago it was*). our media is actually manly not free, but at least it's controlled by sony and not by the goverment...

ww1 was caused by austrain by the way and german was jsut a ally....

ww2 hitler was austrian to, strange you know. ww2 was the only time german treid to control hold and i'm not pround of it. you know, :banana::banana::banana::banana: happens and usa is going the them way wright know. in germany 80% of popultation own a car and even 85% got a cable tv, that a thinks you in usa can only dream of :rolleyes: (*ok, we don't have that many channels then u and no hdtv*).

and aobut poland we don't have to talk. they didn't to noone any harm.

ok ok, to muchg ot...

hm, diesel emtion is better then gasolin emtion when you get a new engine...
just to let you know and diesel engines are more economic. ok, we have prices that you don't have, 97cent diesel and 125 cent super gasolin.

[I²K]

This is a thread about cars :stick:

[Der_KHAN]

This is a thread about cars :stick::rotf: :ROTF:

btw amduser, i doubt that a diesel without soot-particle filter is cleaner than a gas engine.
and you should know that esp. german diesel cars rarely have those.

[amduser]

:rotf: :ROTF:

btw amduser, i doubt that a diesel without soot-particle filter is cleaner than a gas engine.
and you should know that esp. german diesel cars rarely have those.

and you should know that this stuff was first inturust by vw in the 70th and noone wanted it. :rolleyes: . i know that most done have, but the emision and the waste a fule in't that much then in gasolin cars. only prob of dieselcars are the small particals...

[Der_KHAN]

yeah well and they dont sound that great either.

but i think this filter from the 70s was more like a simple air filter that you would have to replace every now and then. not like that self-cleaning stuff today.

[Bennah]

thats a bad example of a nova :P

now heres a good nova, sexy as hell.

http://www.novaload.net/images/car_images/2268big.jpg
http://www.novaload.net/images/car_images/2268big2.jpg
http://www.novaload.net/images/car_images/2268big3.jpg
http://www.novaload.net/images/car_images/2268big4.jpg
http://www.novaload.net/images/car_images/2268big5.jpg

looks loads better than that other thing u posted :D

omg, the state of that car LOL :p:

[Bennah]

I like some american cars. Everyone from outside the US sterotypes American cars to be huge ass, gas guzzlin' rides. Some are like the huge SUV's and such but there are very quick US cars out there. Z06's and Camaro's, totally love them... Camaro my fav american car ;)

European wise, there are more supercars than swedish :banana::banana::banana::banana: stars... alright maybe not :D Anyways, European's offering is: DB9, Vanquish S, Enzo, 360 CS, 575M, Benz SLR, Prosche GT Carrera, Koieneggggggggggggggggggggg ( im sure you get the picture ;)) Murcielago, Diablo etc...

I particular like the european (mainly german) tuned 'everyday' cars such as M3's, M5's, Benz E55, S55, SL55 AMG, RS4, RS6, Clio V6. Anything Brabus tuned Benz I love to bits :D

Then there are the mad Japanese modders with thier supra's, skyline's, RX7's, RX8's, S2000's, 350Z rides. Most of the time they are insanly tunned pumping out huge BHP and torque figures. They spend alot of time and money into thier cars the Japanese modders, I respect them for that when they make beautiful sounding rides then blown away any competition on normal road.

American cars = very quick acceleration cars racing mainly 1/4 mile times.
European cars = image, quality, name and top speed.
Japaense cars = mostly tuned to high heaven. Great for bhp and torque figures and dyno runs.

Final note is that I love cars from all over the world. My pick is: Camaro, RS4, Benz SLR and Supra's :toast:

[I²K]

I like some american cars. Everyone from outside the US sterotypes American cars to be huge ass, gas guzzlin' rides. Some are like the huge SUV's and such but there are very quick US cars out there. Z06's and Camaro's, totally love them... Camaro my fav american car ;)

European wise, there are more supercars than swedish :banana::banana::banana::banana: stars... alright maybe not :D Anyways, European's offering is: DB9, Vanquish S, Enzo, 360 CS, 575M, Benz SLR, Prosche GT Carrera, Koieneggggggggggggggggggggg ( im sure you get the picture ;)) Murcielago, Diablo etc...

I particular like the european (mainly german) tuned 'everyday' cars such as M3's, M5's, Benz E55, S55, SL55 AMG, RS4, RS6, Clio V6. Anything Brabus tuned Benz I love to bits :D

Then there are the mad Japanese modders with thier supra's, skyline's, RX7's, RX8's, S2000's, 350Z rides. Most of the time they are insanly tunned pumping out huge BHP and torque figures. They spend alot of time and money into thier cars the Japanese modders, I respect them for that when they make beautiful sounding rides then blown away any competition on normal road.

American cars = very quick acceleration cars racing mainly 1/4 mile times.
European cars = image, quality, name and top speed.
Japaense cars = mostly tuned to high heaven. Great for bhp and torque figures and dyno runs.

Final note is that I love cars from all over the world. My pick is: Camaro, RS4, Benz SLR and Supra's :toast:


RS6+ :-)

[amduser]

yeah well and they dont sound that great either.

but i think this filter from the 70s was more like a simple air filter that you would have to replace every now and then. not like that self-cleaning stuff today.

no, i mean the exact think pogeut made big know with the ad (*nicht raucher, solltest schon wissen was ich meine...*). echnical seen it was nearly identiccly but in the 70s no one cared baout it...

like there a few other think today, citron for example was the first one using air suspension. actueally in the past 10 years there was no new stuff in cars. ok, know will come some, like nightvision ;) . even tohughs cars. even the combo engine used in a toyota primus isn't a real revoltuition, it's just the first time society exepts such a car :rolleyes: .

[charlie]

My favorite cars :D

1) Ultra-Dream (lotto winner choices)

Ferrari 430
Aston Martin Vanquish
Bentley Continental GT
Ford GT
Lamorghini Murcielago

2) Realistic (in my own future)

Mercedes CLS Sedan (70k)
BMW M5 (80k)
Chevrolet Corvette (45k)
Hummer H2 (55k)

3) Best Buys

Mercedes C230 Kompressor Sedan
Mini Cooper S
Ford Mustang GT
Subaru Impreza WRX

[I²K]

A friend of mine bought a CLS. This car looks like a CLK for homos

[Der_KHAN]

no, i mean the exact think pogeut made big know with the ad (*nicht raucher, solltest schon wissen was ich meine...*). echnical seen it was nearly identiccly but in the 70s no one cared baout it...

that makes me wonder why the current vw filter requires a special fuel additive to raise the combustion temp from time to time and burn the soot.
the peugeot does that by engine management and later vw filters are supposed to work like that too.

[Torin]

LOL... yeah it does look a little fruity...

[Bennah]

A friend of mine bought a CLS. This car looks like a CLK for homos

To me its a peice of art :D Beautiful :slobber:

[amduser]

that makes me wonder why the current vw filter requires a special fuel additive to raise the combustion temp from time to time and burn the soot.
the peugeot does that by engine management and later vw filters are supposed to work like that too.

cause they were not prepared for a situation like this mayby. it'S just like intel right know, the dothan is a perfect cpu and with a few modification it would be really grate but they thought they need preccot to be good on the market. it's just the same think what happens to vw...

[jaawood]

yes, yes, it'S 50years ago, and i'm not really pissed of. iraq for exmple never ask for help, vietnam actually to not. it was in vietnam just a whole west against east think and east won. them think was in germany, when it was divided in two countrie, only here has won west. never heared about coldwar. i'm actually talking baout other countires, like panama (*even it's free know, it gets controlled by usa*). iraq and afganistan are to country wich had no need for your help, and you guy's just atacted them cause of facts that even we german (*our mad (*antispythink*) and bnd (*spystuff**) are not as good as cia etc. should*) got out that it total rubish you got out there. your media is even controlled by us goverment. it not free any more (*20years ago it was*). our media is actually manly not free, but at least it's controlled by sony and not by the goverment...

ww1 was caused by austrain by the way and german was jsut a ally....

ww2 hitler was austrian to, strange you know. ww2 was the only time german treid to control hold and i'm not pround of it. you know, :banana::banana::banana::banana: happens and usa is going the them way wright know. in germany 80% of popultation own a car and even 85% got a cable tv, that a thinks you in usa can only dream of :rolleyes: (*ok, we don't have that many channels then u and no hdtv*).

and aobut poland we don't have to talk. they didn't to noone any harm.

ok ok, to muchg ot...

hm, diesel emtion is better then gasolin emtion when you get a new engine...
just to let you know and diesel engines are more economic. ok, we have prices that you don't have, 97cent diesel and 125 cent super gasolin.

I am not here to argue about world history...everybody knows what happened, and that is in the past. New diesel engines may be better than old ones, but I seriously doubt it. I would like to see a European diesel pass the emissions inspections in California. There are a lot more diesel cars in Europe than the U.S., so I can understand that you are partial to diesels, and I am partial to gasoline cars.

edit: spelling

[Karnivore]

Lets keep the political crap out of this thread please...

[hollywood]

yes, yes, it'S 50years ago, and i'm not really pissed of. iraq for exmple never ask for help, vietnam actually to not. it was in vietnam just a whole west against east think and east won. them think was in germany, when it was divided in two countrie, only here has won west. never heared about coldwar. i'm actually talking baout other countires, like panama (*even it's free know, it gets controlled by usa*). iraq and afganistan are to country wich had no need for your help, and you guy's just atacted them cause of facts that even we german (*our mad (*antispythink*) and bnd (*spystuff**) are not as good as cia etc. should*) got out that it total rubish you got out there. your media is even controlled by us goverment. it not free any more (*20years ago it was*). our media is actually manly not free, but at least it's controlled by sony and not by the goverment...

ww1 was caused by austrain by the way and german was jsut a ally....

ww2 hitler was austrian to, strange you know. ww2 was the only time german treid to control hold and i'm not pround of it. you know, :banana::banana::banana::banana: happens and usa is going the them way wright know. in germany 80% of popultation own a car and even 85% got a cable tv, that a thinks you in usa can only dream of :rolleyes: (*ok, we don't have that many channels then u and no hdtv*).

and aobut poland we don't have to talk. they didn't to noone any harm.

ok ok, to muchg ot...

hm, diesel emtion is better then gasolin emtion when you get a new engine...
just to let you know and diesel engines are more economic. ok, we have prices that you don't have, 97cent diesel and 125 cent super gasolin.



All I can say is that you need an education. Seriously.

[bxa121]

this is becomming another american bashing thread!
be cool dudes
just... take it easy ...
by the way..


LOL... yeah it does look a little fruity...

:ROTF: LMFAO!

[I²K]

http://autos.en.msn.ca/as/autoshow2004/photos/l_bbFord-Mustang-GT.jpg

[Der_KHAN]

... at long last a worthy successor !

[Rippthrough]

Pity about the live-axle on the back :(

[amduser]

All I can say is that you need an education. Seriously.

mayby i'm not good at english, but in the rest, just think about what i have written...

[Der_KHAN]

mayby i'm not good at english, but in the rest, just think about what i have written...

i think you dont realize that your post are insulting to ppl from the us.

[bias_hjorth]

My favorite cars :D

1) Ultra-Dream (lotto winner choices)

Ferrari 430
Aston Martin Vanquish
Bentley Continental GT
Ford GT
Lamorghini Murcielago

2) Realistic (in my own future)

Mercedes CLS Sedan (70k)
BMW M5 (80k)
Chevrolet Corvette (45k)
Hummer H2 (55k)

3) Best Buys

Mercedes C230 Kompressor Sedan
Mini Cooper S
Ford Mustang GT
Subaru Impreza WRX

No there´s a man with good taste :D Although I would probably replace the Vette, hummer and the Ford GT - They are just not exactly my kind of tasta - I want less limpin and pimpin:hehe:

[dewback]

I think it has to do with the fact that gas is hella expensive in europe.

[JasonDTM]

I dont know why us americans are :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:ing about gasoline prices so high.... well one way to rid of that problem is ban SUV's from the damn road.

Oh and the cars I'd like to own in the future are....

1973 Porsche 911 Carrera 2.8 RSR Clone
1996 993 GT-2 "Evo" Clone w/ ODBI

[ElfMagic]

Before I bash the American engineers too much i must admit in the last 5-10 years the technology has improved drastically on the automotive front however...

Things that contribute to American automotive (lack of) engineering are:
Many Americans absolute FEAR of driving smaller/lighter vehicles on roads with so many others that have little to no driving skills or aren't paying any attention to thier surroundings.(IE: talking on cell or watching DVD while driving to name two)
Poor drivers which have no expectation of decent handling car.
Poor drivers that haven't the aptitude/desire to operate a manual gearbox.
Big long straight highways all over the place which aren't the least bit interesting to drive. (Which is why so many cars were designed in the past here to drive straight and smooth only)
Fuel economy completly pivots on the price of fuel/EPA regulations. Americans aren't willing to pay extra for a more effecient engine that took x,xxx,xxx dollars to develope.

Alot of the current technolgy we have here now was brought/bought from europe/asia with purchases of different companies sharing knowledge not our R&D. :(

I'm glad to see we've made some progress with pushrod engine effeciency (LS series/Hemi) but why beat a dead horse? A 4-5.0 liter SOHC V8 with light valvetrain would be more effcient than that old tech. /end of rant/

I've had muscle cars/SUVs/bikes/sports cars so i would like to think i'm not very biased on one or the other, i just wish we would try to be a leader in technical development. As it is now we're dragging old tech decade to decade.



I dissagree that OHC engines are more efficent than pushrod engines becouse FORD makes all their V8s OHC and they still dont get as good fuel economy as other pushrod V8s that are even BIGGER engines! And i feel the reason that Americans are "afraid of Smaller cars" is not becouse they are too small but becouse they are, for the most part, cheaply made mostly of plastic. I do however agree that there are WAY TOO MANY STUPID DRIVERS OUT THERE! ;) :D

[sjohnson]

I dont know why us americans are :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:ing about gasoline prices so high.... well one way to rid of that problem is ban SUV's from the damn road.
...While I think SUV"s are useless, how does banning them help gasoline prices?

Why :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:? Low population density means a probable need to travel. Near zero subsidized public transportation exists in the U.S., what little exists is overly subsidized and located solely in the NE corridor and major metro areas. Try pricing cross-continent travel on AmTrak versus flying. So, cars are a near-necessity in the U.S., and the cost of the fuel to use them is visible to nearly everyone.

Fuel prices drive up commodity prices (transportation costs) and thereby drive up consumer/customer prices.

High fuel prices reflect high petroleum prices. Petroleum is used for huge amounts of widely diverse products. Products sold here and abroad and in high demand.

High fuel prices are artificially inflated by OPEC (can't really blame them for that, heh), so if you're spending more to get to work, play or whatever and making someone else rich, you :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: ;)

I'm sure I can think of more reasons, if you like. :)

[STEvil]

Sucks that SUV's are singled out above everything else really. Why not complain about nascar, indy, drag racing, pickup trucks, or touring cars? Oh, thats right.. the news papers and activists dont bring any of that up.. its all the soccer mom's fault.

[jaawood]

Sucks that SUV's are singled out above everything else really. Why not complain about nascar, indy, drag racing, pickup trucks, or touring cars? Oh, thats right.. the news papers and activists dont bring any of that up.. its all the soccer mom's fault.

Not even to mention motor homes, truckers (not really their fault though), and airlines, possibly (I am not sure) the largest user of fuel in the world.

[STEvil]

the big rigs can have better mileage than lots of the new vehicles (V-8 trucks/vans by ford for example) you buy at a dealership when you run them bob tail (no trailers).

[bias_hjorth]

What is the average mileage for the average american car? (In terms of Kilometers and liters)

[STEvil]

If someone knew how to calculate that, they'd probably be playing poker with a rocket scientist right about now.

[bias_hjorth]

haha point taken :thumbsup:


Although someone must know :p:

[Big Deel]

Sucks that SUV's are singled out above everything else really. Why not complain about nascar, indy, drag racing, pickup trucks, or touring cars? Oh, thats right.. the news papers and activists dont bring any of that up.. its all the soccer mom's fault.

BITE YOUR TOUNGE
Never blame it on racing,it's one of our last freedom's of exspression.

I am a member of "Chasin Racin".We are a group of poeple that go to as many races as we can every year (all types).One of the best races ever was when the president came to Daytona and did a fly over just before he landed.
It was so cool to look up and see AIR Force 1.

Back on topic there are many good things that come out of racing.I feel that the good that comes out of it justifies the gas used.........well for me it does.

As far as SUV's....I own a 2004 Trailblazer that does very well on gas with a 4.2l inline 6.I have a 2003 S10 crewcab that does very well too.
Now for the other end of the spectrum I have a '67 chevelle with a 670 hp
Fuel injected Big block that only gets about 6ml per gallon,but it's only driven about 300 miles per year.

Bottom line is I will be driving big/fast vehicles forever,but I am open minded enough to look at alternative fuels for the future as is many Americans.

Build it big Build it Fast :stick:

[JasonDTM]

Lets see I dont know all the MPG of the hogs... but the H2 gets 12mpg Highway....

[Rippthrough]

I dissagree that OHC engines are more efficent than pushrod engines becouse FORD makes all their V8s OHC and they still dont get as good fuel economy as other pushrod V8s that are even BIGGER engines! And i feel the reason that Americans are "afraid of Smaller cars" is not becouse they are too small but becouse they are, for the most part, cheaply made mostly of plastic. I do however agree that there are WAY TOO MANY STUPID DRIVERS OUT THERE! ;) :D


OHC engines are more effiecent, and a damn sight easier to strip, the crap consuption is probably down to some other design aspect.
And, are these bigger engines more powerful or less? More power = more fuel needed.

[Northwood]

you notice in the american movies every car crash the car usually blows up? i dunno if this is true in real life, but europe has some of the highest safety standards in car manufacture, all from the little cars they build out of carbon fibre, alloys and plastic interiors.

i think US cars use alot of petrol cos they are built so big and heavy, also the bigger and heavyer a car is, the more stuff to mangle you up in a bad crash.

and whats a "soccer mom" ? i get pictures of some geriatric old woman kicking a ball about :ROTF:

[I²K]

you notice in the american movies every car crash the car usually blows up?

There are also Lambos and Ferraris who blow up in US movies. Their tires squek everytime even when they drive away backwards on a wet street :-)

Ever saw Simpsons? Everythink blow up in Springfield even trees :D

[STEvil]

BITE YOUR TOUNGE
Never blame it on racing,it's one of our last freedom's of exspression.

I am a member of "Chasin Racin".We are a group of poeple that go to as many races as we can every year (all types).One of the best races ever was when the president came to Daytona and did a fly over just before he landed.
It was so cool to look up and see AIR Force 1.

Back on topic there are many good things that come out of racing.I feel that the good that comes out of it justifies the gas used.........well for me it does.

As far as SUV's....I own a 2004 Trailblazer that does very well on gas with a 4.2l inline 6.I have a 2003 S10 crewcab that does very well too.
Now for the other end of the spectrum I have a '67 chevelle with a 670 hp
Fuel injected Big block that only gets about 6ml per gallon,but it's only driven about 300 miles per year.

Bottom line is I will be driving big/fast vehicles forever,but I am open minded enough to look at alternative fuels for the future as is many Americans.

Build it big Build it Fast :stick:

I wasnt blaming racing at all, just pointing out that any who pick SUV's out of the group are merely going with the flow and have not actually thought over any of their argument.

Case in point - my dad was drag racing a 1980 Chevy step side shortbox with 10" slicks on the back and a 454 pushing over 500hp (11.8 fastest 1/4mi) with nothing overly special.. sold the truck and the engine is in a Monte Carlo now I believe (always forget the model of the car, may be wrong :stick: ).

[MongoWookie]

OHC engines are more effiecent, and a damn sight easier to strip, the crap consuption is probably down to some other design aspect.
And, are these bigger engines more powerful or less? More power = more fuel needed.
:stick:
OHC engines easier to srtip?? I work on cars Monday-Friday (and on the side), 8-5 at a GM dealership and I can tell you that its much easier to tear down a push rod engine than an OHC engine. I don't disagree that thier more efficient though but not easier to work on, especially the Cadillac Northstar Preium V8 also in the Olds Aurora. Also as big engines and fuel used the Northstar V8 gets close to 32 mpg.
:toast:

[Big Deel]

I wasnt blaming racing at all, just pointing out that any who pick SUV's out of the group are merely going with the flow and have not actually thought over any of their argument.

Case in point - my dad was drag racing a 1980 Chevy step side shortbox with 10" slicks on the back and a 454 pushing over 500hp (11.8 fastest 1/4mi) with nothing overly special.. sold the truck and the engine is in a Monte Carlo now I believe (always forget the model of the car, may be wrong :stick: ).

huhu...your dad is kool..huhu

[STEvil]

huhu...your dad is kool..huhu

:stick:

[sjohnson]

:stick:
OHC engines easier to srtip?? I work on cars Monday-Friday (and on the side), 8-5 at a GM dealership and I can tell you that its much easier to tear down a push rod engine than an OHC engine. I don't disagree that thier more efficient though but not easier to work on, especially the Cadillac Northstar Preium V8 also in the Olds Aurora. Also as big engines and fuel used the Northstar V8 gets close to 32 mpg.
:toast:FoMoCo has V8's with good mileage too. I'm driving a '91 Lincoln Town Car, 302 V8. 28-30 mpg (8.4-7.8 l/100km) highway driving (it's flat here in South Dakota) and 17-18 mpg (13.8-13.1 l/100km) town driving.

Another observation: As an EMT, I've been an on-scene witness to many car vs car, car vs truck accidents. It doesn't matter where the auto was made, larger cars tend to be more survivable in accidents than smaller ones. Many, many times an otherwise desireable small car has had DOA passengers and the larger vehicle has hysterical but nearly unharmed passengers, in my experience. I'll take a large car for safety any day. Volvo's are an exception: while the car is usually a total obscene wreck, after extrication the passengers usually have minor, or at least non life-threatening injuries. Larger vehicles (large BMW, Cadillac, Lexus, etc) require fewer extrications of passengers, though.

The crumple zones, passive and active restraints are nearly universal in cars in the U.S., but a larger car has more mass and absorbs more energy before the impact energy is transmitted to the passengers.

[total_assault]

I dont know why us americans are :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:ing about gasoline prices so high.... well one way to rid of that problem is ban SUV's from the damn road.

Oh and the cars I'd like to own in the future are....

1973 Porsche 911 Carrera 2.8 RSR Clone
1996 993 GT-2 "Evo" Clone w/ ODBI
SUV's cause numerous other probelms such as their bumpers are too high for normal sedans so when they collide it makes a real mess. I would also like to say something about americans when they are looking for a car and say they are in the mid-size sedan class they will look for the car brand that offers the biggest engine and will look at the japanese companies inline-4 as poor quality car!

[sjohnson]

I drove in rush hour traffic for nearly 20 years, New Jersey and New York. In commuting alone, I put over 30,000 miles per year on my vehicles. Oil & filter changes every 3,000 miles, max. Everything, tires, oil, gas, etc - the best I could find.

In that environment, *any* four cylinder engine I drove was nearly worn out somewhere between 80 and 100 thousand miles.

V6 or V8 were good for 150 to 200 thousand.

Under those conditions, at $20,000 (approx) for a decent mid-size car, Japanese or not, a 4 cylinder engine makes for a poor quality car. Unless you enjoy getting raped on the cost of a new car every 2-3 years.

There's a reason why New York cabs DON'T run 4 bangers. Think about it.

[MongoWookie]

I drove in rush hour traffic for nearly 20 years, New Jersey and New York. In commuting alone, I put over 30,000 miles per year on my vehicles. Oil & filter changes every 3,000 miles, max. Everything, tires, oil, gas, etc - the best I could find.

In that environment, *any* four cylinder engine I drove was nearly worn out somewhere between 80 and 100 thousand miles.

V6 or V8 were good for 150 to 200 thousand.

Under those conditions, at $20,000 (approx) for a decent mid-size car, Japanese or not, a 4 cylinder engine makes for a poor quality car. Unless you enjoy getting raped on the cost of a new car every 2-3 years.

There's a reason why New York cabs DON'T run 4 bangers. Think about it.

:confused: I drive a 1992 Chevrolet Cavalier 45 miles a day to work and back and it has 215,000 miles on it and its a four cylinder. It has a few problems but it still gets 35 mpg and never uses any oil. And its still the origional engine and transaxle. :eek:

[sjohnson]

I'm not saying that there isn't a chance that 4 bangers will last, just that you're increasing your chances with 6 or 8.

With a 4, you need higher rpm to generate the same horsepower as a 6 or 8 (generally speaking).

Over about 3,000 rpm (depending on stroke), pistons are travelling at peak speeds in excess of Mach 1. The dynamic properties of friction below 3,000, and in particular around 2,000 rpm are kinder to an engine. A normal 4 cylinder at 2,000 rpm will be "lugging" more than a 6 or 8.

My guess would be that, all things the same, your 215,000 is slightly anomalous with respect to average mileage on 4 cylinder engines. Good to hear you got that kind of life out of your Cavalier. I owned a '94 Cavalier wagon but my ex didn't like it, so it got traded in. Shame, I thought it was a great car.

[STEvil]

I'm not saying that there isn't a chance that 4 bangers will last, just that you're increasing your chances with 6 or 8.

With a 4, you need higher rpm to generate the same horsepower as a 6 or 8 (generally speaking).

Over about 3,000 rpm (depending on stroke), pistons are travelling at peak speeds in excess of Mach 1. The dynamic properties of friction below 3,000, and in particular around 2,000 rpm are kinder to an engine. A normal 4 cylinder at 2,000 rpm will be "lugging" more than a 6 or 8.

My guess would be that, all things the same, your 215,000 is slightly anomalous with respect to average mileage on 4 cylinder engines. Good to hear you got that kind of life out of your Cavalier. I owned a '94 Cavalier wagon but my ex didn't like it, so it got traded in. Shame, I thought it was a great car.

He doesnt say he's driving rush hour traffic though, just 45 miles which probably means around 2800-3500rpm highway (depending on gear ratios and speed) for a good portion of it.

Gotta agree though, most 4-bangers you find around here are either brand new, busted, or blowing smoke... same with v-6's. The inline 6's last substantially longer it seems.

[I²K]

I think it depends on how the engine is built. If there is a balance between cylinder capacity and hp i see no problem. Typical german engine are 1.8l 90hp and 2.0 115hp and they are nearly undestroyable. Good for 300k (km) and more if you take care. Even the charged 4 cylinders are nowadays very unproblematic. And diesel engines are stable as hell.

If we talk about old beamers or japanese cars with around 130-150hp out of 1.6l then you are right. Anyone knows whats the average milage a S2000 can take? Or the RX8?

[ElfMagic]

FoMoCo has V8's with good mileage too. I'm driving a '91 Lincoln Town Car, 302 V8. 28-30 mpg (8.4-7.8 l/100km) highway driving (it's flat here in South Dakota) and 17-18 mpg (13.8-13.1 l/100km) town driving.

Another observation: As an EMT, I've been an on-scene witness to many car vs car, car vs truck accidents. It doesn't matter where the auto was made, larger cars tend to be more survivable in accidents than smaller ones. Many, many times an otherwise desireable small car has had DOA passengers and the larger vehicle has hysterical but nearly unharmed passengers, in my experience. I'll take a large car for safety any day. Volvo's are an exception: while the car is usually a total obscene wreck, after extrication the passengers usually have minor, or at least non life-threatening injuries. Larger vehicles (large BMW, Cadillac, Lexus, etc) require fewer extrications of passengers, though.

The crumple zones, passive and active restraints are nearly universal in cars in the U.S., but a larger car has more mass and absorbs more energy before the impact energy is transmitted to the passengers.

HAD good mileage, i'd like to see any of their New OHC V8 engines get that kind of mileage today! Their running about 12mpg to 23mpg now. At best about 28 in a 3900 pound car (Mustang). And the BIG V8 that i was talking about is the 8.1 L Chevrolet V8 Big block. A pushrod engine that gets better overall economy and has more Horsepower and Torque then most OHC engines smaller than it is with more aluminum in them and less power. And talk about power in a small block, they put the ford engines to shame. :stick: :D And i'll take a BIG car over a small one also! ;)

[Holst]

But allot of british cabs do run 4 cylinders.

My parents old VW (1.1L Golf MK1) did over 200K miles over the course of 12 years.
Never broke down or had any problems.
Was serviced by my father, not by the garrage.

In the end it had a problem with engine valve (we think) but it wasnt worth the money to repair it so it was scrapped.

The preplacement MK3 Gold we bought has since done over 100k miles and is still running as strong as when it was new. When I was working 60 miles from home I put allot of miles on this car in a short period of time, but its never had a problem. And this was with me driving it pretty hard (rarely slower than 85mph on the motorway), but it was still serviced propperly.



I drove in rush hour traffic for nearly 20 years, New Jersey and New York. In commuting alone, I put over 30,000 miles per year on my vehicles. Oil & filter changes every 3,000 miles, max. Everything, tires, oil, gas, etc - the best I could find.

In that environment, *any* four cylinder engine I drove was nearly worn out somewhere between 80 and 100 thousand miles.

V6 or V8 were good for 150 to 200 thousand.

Under those conditions, at $20,000 (approx) for a decent mid-size car, Japanese or not, a 4 cylinder engine makes for a poor quality car. Unless you enjoy getting raped on the cost of a new car every 2-3 years.

There's a reason why New York cabs DON'T run 4 bangers. Think about it.

[Northwood]

Disclaimer people of north american origin may find this post offensive, and as such has been posted to be barely visible, if you wish to read this post then highlight the body of text to read it, if you are easily offended then i advise you don't highlight the text, this is in no-way an admittal that the following post is to be construed as defamatory/inflamatory, and should not be treated as such.

why have some big heavy plodding useless piece of junk V8 when you can have a nice 1.2litre european car that can do 40mpg town and 60mpg motorway, and a top speed of 100mph+? thats perfectly adequate for any person, and comes in different styles/constructs for many different applications.

eventually oil reserves will run out and america will be strewn with transportation problems, all because they're too lazy to look into fuel efficiency.
also this portrayal of "freedom" this and "freedom" that does my box in, yes they have a right to do whatever they want, but i think when it comes to polluting the planet a line needs to be drawn in the sand.

if a developing country like china can work towards eco friendliness and fuel efficiency, then surely a westernized country like america can do also.
my bottom line is STOP THE IGNORANCE america aint the only country on this planet, loads of others gotta live here too ya know.

ignorance now will cause many problems further down the line.

don't look on this as an anti-american post, its an anti-ignorance post, doing more now and making more sacrifices now serves to protect the future, drop the selfishness, and think of all the others in the world who are trying to make it a nicer place to live in.

ignore the environment at your own peril

[Rippthrough]

I'm not saying that there isn't a chance that 4 bangers will last, just that you're increasing your chances with 6 or 8.

With a 4, you need higher rpm to generate the same horsepower as a 6 or 8 (generally speaking).

Over about 3,000 rpm (depending on stroke), pistons are travelling at peak speeds in excess of Mach 1. The dynamic properties of friction below 3,000, and in particular around 2,000 rpm are kinder to an engine. A normal 4 cylinder at 2,000 rpm will be "lugging" more than a 6 or 8.

My guess would be that, all things the same, your 215,000 is slightly anomalous with respect to average mileage on 4 cylinder engines. Good to hear you got that kind of life out of your Cavalier. I owned a '94 Cavalier wagon but my ex didn't like it, so it got traded in. Shame, I thought it was a great car.


Is it just me, or is all that a bit :stick:

[I²K]

@Northwood
Becauseof the fun!

A Audi A8 4.2L takes 20l per 100km and a Ferrari can take up to 40l per 100km depends on model and way of driving.

[sjohnson]

Is it just me, or is all that a bit :stick:If that seems :stick: then you might want to brush up on your automotive engineering, math and physics.

Piston speed has a direct correlation to wear. Basic engine physics.

High quality parts, design and construction can mitigate the friction/wear issues but cannot eliminate them.

All else being equal, a 4 will wear faster than a 6 will wear faster than an 8.

As an example, from http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.bradbury/probemx/p_m18.htm (MPS is Mean Piston Speed)
- As a benchmark, MPS
- under 3,500 ft/min - Good reliability
- 3,500-4,000 ft/min - Stressing
- over 4,000 ft/min - Very short lived

[Rippthrough]

If that seems :stick: then you might want to brush up on your automotive engineering, math and physics.

Piston speed has a direct correlation to wear. Basic engine physics.

High quality parts, design and construction can mitigate the friction/wear issues but cannot eliminate them.

All else being equal, a 4 will wear faster than a 6 will wear faster than an 8.

As an example, from http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dorothy.bradbury/probemx/p_m18.htm (MPS is Mean Piston Speed)


Not true, piston speed depends upon stroke and rpm, nothing else.

[sjohnson]

Not true, piston speed depends upon stroke and rpm, nothing else.
Not true? Your own "stroke and rpm" argument tends to make you disagree with yourself ;)

All else being equal, an 8 cylinder engine is producing power twice as often per rpm as a 4. A 4 will generally need to spin faster (though not TWICE as fast) as an 8 (or 6) to produce the same horsepower.

Also, in order to provide the low-rpm torque that makes starts "smooth", automobile manufacturers tend to give a longer stroke to 4 cylinder engines and a shorter stroke to engines with more cylinders.

So, "stroke and rpm" would tend to support my claim, would it not?

[Rippthrough]

Still not true.
A 4-cyl of the same capacity as the 8-cyl, with similiar valve layouts, will naturally produce more torque at low rpm because of increased gas-flow from the cylinder head.

[sjohnson]

Ok, in real life they wouldn't have similar valve layouts or capacities, but I'll grant you that point, based on that criteria and my premise of "all else being equal."

In the real world, with 1.2l 4 versus the 2.4l 6 or 2.8l 8, won't that 1.2 will be geared differently and at a given road speed in top gear the 4 will be turning at a higher rpm than the 6 or 8?

[Rippthrough]

Hey, you said all else being equal :)

In most situations yes. But that's just down to capacity. However, go take a look at a Radical v-8.....12000rpm anyone?

EDIT: Honda's 2.2 iCTDi in their latest Accord, 251 lbft of torque at 2000rpm. I think that's a little fairer comparison eh? And if we went bigger....

[sjohnson]

Yup, or a F1 4 cylinder, at, what, 20k rpm ;).

A well-designed 4 (BMW, for instance) has gobs of torque and great cruising power, plus the engine is generally long-lived. My '89 Dasher Diesel was a great cruiser, long-lived, as well.

You pay for that quality. Problem is, given a normal family budget, it's easier to pay less for the car upfront (getting lower quality) and pay-as-you-go on fuel. sucks, but I'm not seeing much change in that respect.

[Rippthrough]

F1 4-cyl?
You must watch a different F1 to me :)
I have a 1.4l pug 306 I bought for running round in town, it's done 170k so far with no problems....
I spent £1000 on it when I got it.

[STEvil]

Northwood - If your post is about ignorance you missed some of your own. To think north america is not working towards fuel efficiency also is false and negates your whole post..

Bringing out the RPMs now are we? Lets get a wenkel into the discussion :D

[Der_KHAN]

is there any F1 team that runs sth smaller than a v10 at all?

[Rippthrough]

It's 'wankel'
I've got one of those too.

The f1 teams run v10's, but it'll soon be v8's due to the current cars being too fast.

[VSpecII]

F1 hasn't used inline fours since the 70's. And then they were all turbocharged.

Today they all use 3 liter V10s (the greatest allowed by the FIA), that produce 300 pounds feet throughout the entire range above 5000RPM (they idle at 4000). Revving up to 19000rpm, they create 750-950 depending on the car (lowest right now is the Cosworth V10 in the Jaguar, while the most powerfull is BMW in the Wiliams chassis).

As of next season, the FIA is limiting them to 2 liter V8s. This is NOT because the cars are "too fast". It is because it they want more emphasis on the driver, rather than the car. The same reason forced induction was banned, active suspention, an accual slick (note the four groves in current tire - it's not for the rain), limiting to 6cm skirts, etc, etc. It's a ratings thing.

[Rippthrough]

Its because the cars are too fast and safety is coming into play, as it was with every other thing you mentioned
And they are switching to 2.4 litre V8's, or 3l v10's with rev limiters if the smaller teams cant' afford to switch to v8's yet.
And the most powerful engine of last season is widely regarded to be the toyota.
Apart from that your right.

[I²K]

The f1 teams run v10's, but it'll soon be v8's due to the current cars being too fast.
due to Michael Schumcher is too fast...


Lets get a wenkel into the discussion



http://www2.uol.com.br/bestcars/carros/saloes/detroit01/mazda-rx8-8.jpg

[Rippthrough]

Not the same as my wankel :)
I wish I had one though :D

[sjohnson]

F1 Cosworth's, etc. 4 cylinder engines - sure, they were used in the 70's. And they ran at outrageous rpm's.

Moving on. Some U.S. cars are marked with designations regarding the fuel they can use. They've been around for several years:

While any gasoline-tuned engine can run a 10% ethanol/90% gasoline mix (that's all I buy for my cars), these cars have computers that can sense 90%, or even 100% ethanol and run on that fuel. We have ethanol filling stations, not a lot yet but they're increasing in number.

Propane conversions are also common. Bio-Diesel is another increasingly common fuel being used, primarily in agriculture.

60 mpg vehicles are available, but their service complexities haven't been thoroughly worked out. Hybrids are great for normal temperatures. They don't work so well in extreme cold since the batteries lose efficiency below 0c. $3,000 US to replace the batteries and the toxic materials used in the batteries is an obstacle against widespread use, one that manufacturers are addressing over time.

It's already been said, but I'll repeat: those who feel that their particular geographic region has pollution laws and levels superior to those of the U.S. should check their facts first. As an example, one of the biggest gripes of sports-car enthusisasts in the U.S. is that their favorite cars cannot be brought here because the engines don't meet U.S. emission standards :P

[MongoWookie]

F1 Cosworth's, etc. 4 cylinder engines - sure, they were used in the 70's. And they ran at outrageous rpm's.

Moving on. Some U.S. cars are marked with designations regarding the fuel they can use. They've been around for several years:

While any gasoline-tuned engine can run a 10% ethanol/90% gasoline mix (that's all I buy for my cars), these cars have computers that can sense 90%, or even 100% ethanol and run on that fuel. We have ethanol filling stations, not a lot yet but they're increasing in number.

Propane conversions are also common. Bio-Diesel is another increasingly common fuel being used, primarily in agriculture.

60 mpg vehicles are available, but their service complexities haven't been thoroughly worked out. Hybrids are great for normal temperatures. They don't work so well in extreme cold since the batteries lose efficiency below 0c. $3,000 US to replace the batteries and the toxic materials used in the batteries is an obstacle against widespread use, one that manufacturers are addressing over time.

It's already been said, but I'll repeat: those who feel that their particular geographic region has pollution laws and levels superior to those of the U.S. should check their facts first. As an example, one of the biggest gripes of sports-car enthusisasts in the U.S. is that their favorite cars cannot be brought here because the engines don't meet U.S. emission standards :P

At the GM dealership that I am Service Tech at all the Tahoes and Suburbans started coming as Flex-fuel. They have a fuel composition sensor inline that monitors the ethanol-gasoline ratio of the fuel being used. These vehicles can be operated with a blend of ethanol and gasoline up to 85% ethanol.

[Big Deel]

Disclaimer people of north american origin may find this post offensive, and as such has been posted to be barely visible, if you wish to read this post then highlight the body of text to read it, if you are easily offended then i advise you don't highlight the text, this is in no-way an admittal that the following post is to be construed as defamatory/inflamatory, and should not be treated as such.

why have some big heavy plodding useless piece of junk V8 when you can have a nice 1.2litre european car that can do 40mpg town and 60mpg motorway, and a top speed of 100mph+? thats perfectly adequate for any person, and comes in different styles/constructs for many different applications.

eventually oil reserves will run out and america will be strewn with transportation problems, all because they're too lazy to look into fuel efficiency.
also this portrayal of "freedom" this and "freedom" that does my box in, yes they have a right to do whatever they want, but i think when it comes to polluting the planet a line needs to be drawn in the sand.

if a developing country like china can work towards eco friendliness and fuel efficiency, then surely a westernized country like america can do also.
my bottom line is STOP THE IGNORANCE america aint the only country on this planet, loads of others gotta live here too ya know.

ignorance now will cause many problems further down the line.

don't look on this as an anti-american post, its an anti-ignorance post, doing more now and making more sacrifices now serves to protect the future, drop the selfishness, and think of all the others in the world who are trying to make it a nicer place to live in.

ignore the environment at your own peril

1st how much cargo can your 1.2l carry ?
2nd Americans are not lazy,problem is not the # of cylinders it's the # of cars.

"on 2nd thoughts, forget everything i've just said, when the world oil runs out, us europeans and a select few others will already have our electric/solar/fuel-cell/hydrogen powered vehicles, then america will come crawling to us to share our tech, and alot of people will be laughing."

3rd America will never crawl for anything,we will find alternatives.
I do not think you are very far ahead of us on electric/solar/fuel-cell/hydrogen powered vehicles.

[Northwood]

1st how much cargo can your 1.2l carry ?

funny you should mention that, a few days ago travelling down the motorway, i saw a little hatchback pulling 1 of those huge 8 berth caravans, must of weighed atleast a ton, so no power problems there.


2nd Americans are not lazy,problem is not the # of cylinders it's the # of cars.

is it just me or does that statement totally contradict itself?
prove that americans aren't lazy by having 1 car per household instead of 2 or 3, untill engine sizes increase in efficiency somewhat and the fuel you use to run 1 car can be put into 3 more efficient ones, or better yet try public transport :)


3rd America will never crawl for anything,we will find alternatives.

when the M1A1 "Abrams" (sp?) tank was first created, there was a weakness with the armor, in particular the front of the tank, and how was this problem solved? *wait for it* america came to us brits and asked for our "chobham" armor :banana:


I do not think you are very far ahead of us on electric/solar/fuel-cell/hydrogen powered vehicles.

were way ahead of most countries, mainly because our government taxes us to the hilt on everything including fuel.

*note to self, vote out that gimp Tony Blair*

[Karnivore]

Northwood, I'll have to say your posts are entertaining at least :rolleyes:

[Kazoo]

I would just call them weird. :D

[sjohnson]

Nice how folks living in densely populated areas always recommend public transportation.

In any case, public transportation needs heavy tax subsidies to break even. And is only fuel efficient when kept at or near capacity. Anyone care to check out how much pollution is generated by the carbon fuel used to generate the electricity we all take for granted?

Which brings me to a personal peeve - my State's governor is pushing for creation of coal-fired power plants here in South Dakota. We have plenty of wind and water with which we could generate and export electrical power, but no coal. Err....

[Rippthrough]

Public transport causes more pollution per person than cars do. It should be banned.

[[XC]thewildblue]

Found a nice site for thetrebleking and his "nice" novas....hehe

http://www.barryboys.co.uk/mx/

[Rippthrough]

Nova's make great crumple zones for other cars, and that's about it.

[jaawood]

you notice in the american movies every car crash the car usually blows up? i dunno if this is true in real life, but europe has some of the highest safety standards in car manufacture, all from the little cars they build out of carbon fibre, alloys and plastic interiors.

i think US cars use alot of petrol cos they are built so big and heavy, also the bigger and heavyer a car is, the more stuff to mangle you up in a bad crash.

and whats a "soccer mom" ? i get pictures of some geriatric old woman kicking a ball about


Disclaimer people of north american origin may find this post offensive, and as such has been posted to be barely visible, if you wish to read this post then highlight the body of text to read it, if you are easily offended then i advise you don't highlight the text, this is in no-way an admittal that the following post is to be construed as defamatory/inflamatory, and should not be treated as such.

why have some big heavy plodding useless piece of junk V8 when you can have a nice 1.2litre european car that can do 40mpg town and 60mpg motorway, and a top speed of 100mph+? thats perfectly adequate for any person, and comes in different styles/constructs for many different applications.

eventually oil reserves will run out and america will be strewn with transportation problems, all because they're too lazy to look into fuel efficiency.
also this portrayal of "freedom" this and "freedom" that does my box in, yes they have a right to do whatever they want, but i think when it comes to polluting the planet a line needs to be drawn in the sand.

if a developing country like china can work towards eco friendliness and fuel efficiency, then surely a westernized country like america can do also.
my bottom line is STOP THE IGNORANCE america aint the only country on this planet, loads of others gotta live here too ya know.

ignorance now will cause many problems further down the line.

don't look on this as an anti-american post, its an anti-ignorance post, doing more now and making more sacrifices now serves to protect the future, drop the selfishness, and think of all the others in the world who are trying to make it a nicer place to live in.

ignore the environment at your own peril

Well, I think you are misinformed. Just a little.
1. Cars don't blow up in real life. Those are MOVIES
2. Do you think American cars aren't made out of alloys, plastics, and carbon fibre? There is a reason GM can make a chevy silverado as light as a Benz sedan.
3. In a car crash, bigger cars protect the passenger and the driver, they don't mangle them. If you hit a moose in alaska (some people know what I am talking about) in a truck you will mostly likely walk away from the wreck. If hit a moose in a little car, then you have a chance of DYING. A close friend of mine was killed last winter in his BMW after the moose rolled over his car and crushed him.
4. A "soccor mom" is the term given to women with children who drive like to drive SUV's and haul their kids and stuff around.

With regard to the second quote, I don't think you understand how many people actuallly USE there big cars and trucks. Maybe in Europe you don't need a big car. That is fine. Your 1.2l two cylinder engine can only haul so much, and carry so many people. For other reasons, you need a bigger car (work truck, construction, etc.) which you might not have thought of. The U.S. and it's automobile manufacturers are not too lazy to look into fuel economy, hence the reason current V8s get 20+ mi/gal instead of 10 like they used to.

I think it is funny that people bash the U.S. concerning pollution, when there aren't actually any holes in the ozone layer of the atmosphere above the U.S. :lol:

edit: spelling

[XiN]

In my city (a big city but, like most of italian/european towns, an arrow city) there are a lot of SUV ... at this time SUV cars are spreading in Italy as in other European countries ...

... sometimes in the streets I see Hummer H2 too! (about 100 Hummer were sold in Italy the last year! 100!). The funny thing it's these big vehicles move in the (arrow) streets with city cars like Smart or Opel Corsa / Fiat Punto ... can you imagine a car accident between an Hummer and a Smart? :D

At this time I think Europe is being similiar to USA ...

PS: sorry for my English :(

[I²K]

Bio-Diesel is another increasingly common fuel being used, primarily in agriculture.

I drive bio-diesel. VW Lupo 3L. 3 to 5L / 100Km but inspections cost as much as for a porsche.

@Xin, look for a Dodge Ram oder Cadiliac Escalade and our SUVs look like playmobile :-)

[Northwood]

wibble... :banana:

[MongoWookie]

Just out of curiousity, about how much power do your little V8's in Europe produce anyway. :toast:

[Northwood]

TVR Sagaris is a 4.0L Straight-Six and produces 400bhp, 0-60 in 3.8sec and a top speed of just over 200mph.

gets around 35MPG combined city and motorway consumption.

also this car is Road-Legal

british technology at its finest :)

can any american car match that? must be 4.0L and must be a road legal production car :)

oh and i'll be generous with the pricing too, u got $90,000 to get a car that can beat that car on performance and fuel consumption :toast:

pics attached

[STEvil]

Change a few part on here, put it in any vehicle you want.. there ya go.

http://www.fullboost.com.au/content/media/video/fullBOOST_nizpro_1163hp.avi


Oh yeah, you find this engine in a lot of Ford minivans and SUV's.

[MongoWookie]

:slobber: Thats friggin sweet man, LoL. :stick:

[I²K]

http://www.dahlbackracing.se/projekt/golf_rs1.html

2.1l turbo charged... up to 900hp

[NoX]

I think that the gasoline sold in US is cheaper to produce because it is of lower quality then the European one. Here in Calif you can buy 87, 89, or 91 octane gas. In Europe, well at least in Italy, the minimum octane level by law is 96. This could suck if u have a BMW, VW or any car with an engine running with a significant compression ratio (european or japs sport cars) because to avoid serious knocking, you have always to buy the most expensive 91 octane gas and/or add an octane booster ($12xbottle) every time you fill up your tank.
Most American cars don't have this type of problem because usually have engines with lower compression ratios. The power is typically obtained by increasing the engine's size rather then raising its mechanical efficiency employing newer technologies. This trend is common to many US "muscle" cars.
Take the new Mustang. The look is great but to give her 300hps Ford had to design a monster 4.6L V8 block and to keep the price low they had to use all over the place cheap technical solutions. In my (european) opinion that sucks and kills the appeal of a sport car. However the Mustang is targeted to the US market where most people are not fascinated by sophisticated engines or looking for particular driving sensations, they like the crude performance numbers and to feel them on a 1/4 mile. Different tastes. :)

http://img145.exs.cx/img145/1044/f4307dn.jpg

[Rippthrough]

2.6L V8, 400bhp. Naturally aspirated. Road legal, UNMODIFIED.

[Big Deel]

"Take the new Mustang. The look is great but to give her 300hps Ford had to design a monster 4.6L V8 block...."

Since when was a 4.6L a "Monster"......it's about half of a monster.
Some of the posts in this thread have some valid points,but go a little extreme on the reasoning.We have people posting things about $90,000 super cars with 4.0L,But a $30,000 American car that has a 4.6L is a monster.I agree we have different tastes and a different views on things.

I am glad we all have different views on this forum.......wouldn't be as fun bragging up AMD and American muscle if we did not.

[Rippthrough]

You can't really compare the prices without refering to the economy of different countries though. The fact I can get 2 dollars per pound means that UK cars imported to america HAVE to be high priced to make any money for their parent companies, whereas over in the UK they may be quite reasonably priced, comparatively.

[MaxxxRacer]

Didnt take the time to read through the thread, but if you loooking for effecient engines, honda is the way to go. My barbor had a integra type R that put out nearly 400hp from a 2 litre engine. He has a BMW m3 now and he kinda misses the power of the integra (but his m3 is an amazing car)

But hondas greatest work was their 1.6 (it was either that or 2 litres) engine that put out 1200 horsepower. yes you heard correct. It was one of their forumla one racing engines. Sadly the engine got banned becuase it was too powerful and no one could keep up with them.

[Rippthrough]

Honda's are incredibly smooth, effiecent engines - and most of them will run forever.
However, that flat, smooth torque band tends to mean a loss of character in quite a few of their engines.
If Kawasaki made cars, I'd be first in line.

[ElfMagic]

3rd America will never crawl for anything,we will find alternatives.



when the M1A1 "Abrams" (sp?) tank was first created, there was a weakness with the armor, in particular the front of the tank, and how was this problem solved? *wait for it* america came to us brits and asked for our "chobham" armor

When the "M1" Abrams First came out it was a problem with under armored track area not weakness of the front armor. Should serve in the U.S. ARMY for a bit if you want to KNOCK our Enginering! :stick: Been there, done that, Thank you! Oh ya and if i remember right the brits get alot of their military technology from the U.S. Least thats what the "Brits" told us at the "Roving Sands" Joint military excercise. (Largest Air defense excercise in the WORLD)

[Rippthrough]

Both america and britain share a lot of military tech, and I suppose the americans will be wanting our new armour when it's finished it's developments. Same as we want the JSF, in replacment for the Harrier ( which the americans bought a lot of...).
Share and share alike.

[jaawood]

I think that the gasoline sold in US is cheaper to produce because it is of lower quality then the European one. Here in Calif you can buy 87, 89, or 91 octane gas. In Europe, well at least in Italy, the minimum octane level by law is 96. This could suck if u have a BMW, VW or any car with an engine running with a significant compression ratio (european or japs sport cars) because to avoid serious knocking, you have always to buy the most expensive 91 octane gas and/or add an octane booster ($12xbottle) every time you fill up your tank.
Most American cars don't have this type of problem because usually have engines with lower compression ratios. The power is typically obtained by increasing the engine's size rather then raising its mechanical efficiency employing newer technologies. This trend is common to many US "muscle" cars.
Take the new Mustang. The look is great but to give her 300hps Ford had to design a monster 4.6L V8 block and to keep the price low they had to use all over the place cheap technical solutions. In my (european) opinion that sucks and kills the appeal of a sport car. However the Mustang is targeted to the US market where most people are not fascinated by sophisticated engines or looking for particular driving sensations, they like the crude performance numbers and to feel them on a 1/4 mile. Different tastes. :)

http://img145.exs.cx/img145/1044/f4307dn.jpg

I agree with the first part of your reply, and the fact that they use cheap parts for the mustang. But I don't think it is right to say that the U.S. market is people looking to perform well in the 1/4 mile. That is what movies make it out to be, but in reality the U.S. has just as a diverse market as anywhere else, which is why ALL types of cars are sold here and all sell well. The number of people who drag race or modify cars to be street racers or whatever is very small compared to the whole population, and doesn't represent the majority of the population.

[fatty]

In australia where I was a youngen we had the best of all cars fast 6's with the torana and fuel injected 6 of the vl commador which coupled with a turbo and 5speed gearbox was nice and fast we also had the big v8's (well not as big as the american v8's lol) fuel injected v8 turbo's but we also had my all time favourate the wankle lool I was a rotry head yes I had a fastish mazda rx2 that I would race against v8's and win it wasn't a 9 second car but it was light and fun to drive had an rx7 too but that was heavy I must say though I still love the look of the newer rx7's and hope to get one on my return home :) :stick:

[reject]

im so proud of holden, they make fkn awesome cars.
the new gen 4 v8 is out 6l and i think like 255kw and almonst 600nm of torque
you will be able to get it in a 60000$ car :D
but the argument about fuel consumption is valid and that why i like the new Torana, a 3.6l v6 and does 0-100 (0-60mph) under 5 secs stock
better than any rice crap.
but to be fair japan has some awesome cars, toyota volta full electirc motor that does 4.8s (IIRC) 0-100
i just hate those gay body kits like that vauxhall nova had

[STEvil]

I wouldnt mind a vauxhall with a truck bed body.. unique ;)

[Big Deel]

"the new gen 4 v8 is out 6l and i think like 255kw and almonst 600nm of torque"

I need to get out of the U.S. more often because those spec.'s just don't mean anything to me ......lol
Now 600 ft. pounds of torque,now you getting some where!

[reject]

http://www.pitt.edu/~rsup/touqueconv.html
442 foot pounds
but i need to find the right specs
ok its 297kw and 530nm toque
so thats... 391 ft.lbs and 398hp on a stock engine and this will be on the new HSVs

[Rippthrough]

That's pretty naff for a 6 litre engine, even if it does need to last a while.

[L0$t Pr0PhEt]

Why do Americans like to laugh with european cars :(
You have to keep in mind that Americans earn 2-3 times (so I have been told) as much as people from Belgium and Belgium is one of the top countries of Europe in earnings. Also gas is more expensive so you can figure out why most of us drive a relatively small car. I for one don't like the looks of most American cars but thats just my opinion, please don't laugh with cars from Europe where somebody has worked his ass off just to make it like he wants it. Why need a powerfull car if the police is everywhere? Safety comes first.

[STEvil]

everyone works their butt off to make a living in any country you go to, lost prophet.

[charlie]

I saw a Bentley Conty GT at a 99cent store the other day, lol.....

[Crankster]

True Stevil, besides ppl in europe can afford decent cars.
I think the gas is the issue....

[L0$t Pr0PhEt]

everyone works their butt off to make a living in any country you go to, lost prophet.

I didn't say that Americans are more rich and don't have to work as hard (as some of you know we in Belgium have social ensurance (more taxes) which you guys don't (you can see this positive or negative)). I just thought it was a little arrogant how you guys laugh with european cars because they are smaller with other looks and don't have the same torque or whatever. I think this ain't a thread about size...

[Karnivore]

Plenty of cars are laughable, don't think any single country has a corner on that market... :stick:

[bias_hjorth]

Actually most europeans car magasins usually states US cars for beeing a lower quility in terms of plastic gapings etc. They interior design in a american cars always leeds me 10 years back to older european cars -
The only thing comming to close a real recommandation is the new vette.

On the personal side there´s actually very few american cars that I like - None of them are regular family vehicles though.

[NoX]

European quality and design is largely appreciated everywhere in US. I see TV commercials in which even American brands refer to these characteristics when praising their vehicles. As matter of fact here in So Cal, beside the Cadillacs,the hottest cars are Mercedes, BMWs, Jaguar, Ferrari, etc.

[Rippthrough]

Hey don't worry.
A lot of our european designers have been hired over to give you guys a hand in that department. Give em a few years.

[charlie]

Actually most europeans car magasins usually states US cars for beeing a lower quility in terms of plastic gapings etc. They interior design in a american cars always leeds me 10 years back to older european cars -
The only thing comming to close a real recommandation is the new vette.

On the personal side there´s actually very few american cars that I like - None of them are regular family vehicles though.

oh, yeah.....
The new Z06 Corvette is amazing. 500hp, Ferrari/Lambo speed/power for $65k......
But my FAVES are still European cars.....like I said before:
BMW M5
Bentley Conti GT
MB SLR

Even those da*n little MB "eggs" that I saw in Frankfurt last year....

C

[STEvil]

My faves are 4 wheel drives. ;)

Cant deny the Stingray though.. its the only car other than a lamborghini diablo that i'd ever want to sped a lot of money on ;)

[MongoWookie]

Hey don't worry.
A lot of our european designers have been hired over to give you guys a hand in that department. Give em a few years.
I do have to agree with you there, why do you think that GM owns Saab. I do like some of the European style its just those cars are half the size of ours and cost sometimes twice as much.

:toast:

[charlie]

Anyone know what those Mercedes Benz "eggs" wer ethat I saw there? Kinda like glorified golf carts....hehehehe I want one~~

A Class?

[bias_hjorth]

I personally dont know that one but here´s a charming alternitive :
http://www.italiaspeed.com/2004/cars/fiat/02/500_concept/101.jpg

Sweetest car i´ve even seen and the best thing is they are going to build it :thumbsup:

[sky]

Anyone know what those Mercedes Benz "eggs" wer ethat I saw there? Kinda like glorified golf carts....hehehehe I want one~~

A Class?

dunno, could also be the smart (http://www.smart.com) .. but then again it might have been one version of the a-class, but judging from the "golfcart" thing.. i take it its a smart :D or this ridiculous ghey bike bmw did, the c1 (http://www.bmw-c1.de)

[Northwood]

I do like some of the European style its just those cars are half the size of ours and cost sometimes twice as much. :toast:

thats cos of the quality that goes into european cars.
also the euro/£ are worth siht loads more than the dollar.

[bias_hjorth]

Well usually the design is not all. Safety is almost above all here in EU and all the safety mechanism europeans cars have these day cost a bucket load of cash to produce.

[X-tremist]

FPV (Ford Performance Vehicles) > Holden (HSV).
The boss290 is developed in Australia, and it sounds mighty fine, both from personal experience and personal opionion I say it sounds better than the LS1. It is a 5.4L Triton Block with Cobra R heads
It produces 550Nm of torque (the highest on any Australian built engine) and also has a power output of 290KW (sorry we do not use HP). The car that houses this power house is the FPV GT/GT-P.
Then there is the F6, a turbocharged 6 cyclinder which seems to be a more popular choice, more agile and slightly faster IIRC. These cars are not hi-performance cars, they are performance sedans. Pics and info (on the boss 290 below).
We do have our fair share of Jap and European imports as well, not as much American, besides Holden (General Motors), Jeep and Chrysler to name a few.


The Boss 290 combines the best of both worlds, with race-bred power and everyday comfort. The awe-inspiring Boss 290 is a powerplant unlike any ever built in this country and comes to life on Australia's only current V8 production line.

The Boss 290 was developed right here in Australia by Ford Performance Vehicles for our unique requirements and to meet the rising demands of a new breed of Aussie V8 drivers.

Its 5.4-litre capacity, 32 valves and double overhead camshafts per bank therefore work in concert to produce 290 kilowatts of power and a phenomenal 520 Newton metres of torque. So not only is there free-revving top-end power but a wall of torque at low speeds as well. In combination with the tuned stainless steel exhaust system, it produces the trademark rumble that lets you know you're driving a real, blue-blooded Aussie V8. It has a quality that clearly communicates who exactly owns the road.

[X-tremist]

All else being equal, a 4 will wear faster than a 6 will wear faster than an 8.
It comes down to clearences, materials used and lubrication (both the oil itself and the delivery method).

Asking whether a V8 suffers less mechanical wear than a 4 pot is like asking how big a piece of string is.

Taken from the mouth of a wise friend.
4 cylinder design varies just as much as it's 8 cylinder cousin. You can get high tech 4 cylinders now with multiple camshaft and main bearings, light weight alloys, forged components and some pretty advanced engine design as a whole. You cant go comparing any 4 cylinder engine against any v8, it just isnt possible. For starters, nobody has said for sure if we are just talking about the pushrod design, secondly there arent any physical stress tests to proove which will wear out faster. As i said before, there are too many variables, when you are dealing with engines where thousands of an inch make all the difference, it just isnt a level playing field to discuss, not matter how hard you try.

Wear is not just a factor of revolutions but rather the friction being placed upon two surfaces. Reguardless of engine design, friction between two surfaces is the most influential factor when you start talking about wear. Friction can be limited in quite a few ways, through lubrication, bearing material, heat, force, just to name a few. The argument that because an engine does more revolutions compared to another engine, then logic demmands it must wear faster, has really gone out the door. With the knowledge that is around for just about every engine on the road, with the right clearences, the right oil, the right compnents, and if you happen to avoid mechanical failure, you could build any engine to run into the millions of k's. There are many factors, and the physical engine design is about #2321231251583968 on the list of things that contribute.

[Rippthrough]

We've already wrapped this one up :)

[X-tremist]

We've already wrapped this one up :)
Oh sorry, didn't I look like a fool. :owned:

[Rippthrough]

Nah, because you just proved my side of the case again.
Wd that man.

[sjohnson]

Nothing "proved" at all. You can design a Sh*tty v24 that wears out in 100 klicks or a 2 cylinder that goes 2 million. Given enough time and money, I can take any of the poor engines mentioned here, balance/blueprint them, add low-tolerance parts and produce a fantastically long-lived engine that's low in emissions and high on economy. That's 50 year-old automotive build stuff, nothing new.

Check out how much energy and pollution go into producing high-rev, high output engines (of any type), and how much exotic lubricants cost (in terms of energy). Check out how much those engines cost. It's easy to go "wow" that $60,000 USD car or that $100,000 USD car beats any around. Those spending $60k won't have it any other way. How many of you own one of those? Are you speaking from personal experience or from a website review? How many of you take PC reviews with a grain of salt yet swallow a car site review without thinking?

No matter what the number of cylinders, keeping the revs somewhere around 2-3k rpm will produce a longer-lasting engine when driving any normally-engined car. Cars which we all drive, no matter where that car was made.

This thread was (IMO) started to bash U.S. cars yet the latter part of the thread is posters whining how European cars are being denigrated.

I've owned cars from around the world. My very first was a '58 Austin-Healey 100-6. TERRIBLE electrics, very tough around town. But a joy on the road, at speed and is still a head-turner. I now own a Lincoln Town car. It gets much better gas mileage than the Healey, will last much longer, is hugely more reliable than the Healey. Which one is better? Neither. They're both just cars. As were all the cars in between.

If it gives you wood to trash one marque over another, go for it. If we were discussing ATI versus nVidia you all KNOW where this thread would be...

[reject]

thats wrong, holden has way more bathurst wins and holden is an aussie brand, ford came from america and are still owned completely by american companies, but holden , while being part of GM, is completely australian owned.
i will always have a bias to holden, but since ford becomes more australian some of there cars are getting nicer, like the XR-6
v8s are on the way out now because fuel costs so much anyway
the new torana is my favourite car now
http://www.hsvforum.com.au/album_cat.php?cat_id=3
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/2004-australian-motor-show-holden.htm


FPV (Ford Performance Vehicles) > Holden (HSV).
The boss290 is developed in Australia, and it sounds mighty fine, both from personal experience and personal opionion I say it sounds better than the LS1. It is a 5.4L Triton Block with Cobra R heads
It produces 550Nm of torque (the highest on any Australian built engine) and also has a power output of 290KW (sorry we do not use HP). The car that houses this power house is the FPV GT/GT-P.
Then there is the F6, a turbocharged 6 cyclinder which seems to be a more popular choice, more agile and slightly faster IIRC. These cars are not hi-performance cars, they are performance sedans. Pics and info (on the boss 290 below).
We do have our fair share of Jap and European imports as well, not as much American, besides Holden (General Motors), Jeep and Chrysler to name a few.


The Boss 290 combines the best of both worlds, with race-bred power and everyday comfort. The awe-inspiring Boss 290 is a powerplant unlike any ever built in this country and comes to life on Australia's only current V8 production line.

The Boss 290 was developed right here in Australia by Ford Performance Vehicles for our unique requirements and to meet the rising demands of a new breed of Aussie V8 drivers.

Its 5.4-litre capacity, 32 valves and double overhead camshafts per bank therefore work in concert to produce 290 kilowatts of power and a phenomenal 520 Newton metres of torque. So not only is there free-revving top-end power but a wall of torque at low speeds as well. In combination with the tuned stainless steel exhaust system, it produces the trademark rumble that lets you know you're driving a real, blue-blooded Aussie V8. It has a quality that clearly communicates who exactly owns the road.

[X-tremist]

Snip[/url]
Umm, the Ford is more "Australian" than the current Holden. Lets take for example the LS1, and the Boss290. The boss290/boss260 is a engine that has been assembled in Australia, as well as the old Tickford enhanced engines. Whereas the LS1 is an engine which has been brought in from the US of A and detune (therefore IIRC underperforming) thus why the LS1 edit is so famous.
Second, the Alloytec V6, Fords i6 is built/assembled in Australia.
IMO Ford Australia started the whole performance family car revolution (in Australia) with the release of the FORD GT Phase II GTHO, one of the most feared road cars in Australia.

I agree that Holden has won more Bathurst's, however take a look at who finished the V8 Supercars series first, second and third, yes it was Ford.

I guess, we both like different brands, we are not goining to convince each other. You know you want to join the Ford crowd
:D

[Rippthrough]

Nothing "proved" at all. You can design a Sh*tty v24 that wears out in 100 klicks or a 2 cylinder that goes 2 million. Given enough time and money, I can take any of the poor engines mentioned here, balance/blueprint them, add low-tolerance parts and produce a fantastically long-lived engine that's low in emissions and high on economy. That's 50 year-old automotive build stuff, nothing new.

Check out how much energy and pollution go into producing high-rev, high output engines (of any type), and how much exotic lubricants cost (in terms of energy). Check out how much those engines cost. It's easy to go "wow" that $60,000 USD car or that $100,000 USD car beats any around. Those spending $60k won't have it any other way. How many of you own one of those? Are you speaking from personal experience or from a website review? How many of you take PC reviews with a grain of salt yet swallow a car site review without thinking?

No matter what the number of cylinders, keeping the revs somewhere around 2-3k rpm will produce a longer-lasting engine when driving any normally-engined car. Cars which we all drive, no matter where that car was made.

This thread was (IMO) started to bash U.S. cars yet the latter part of the thread is posters whining how European cars are being denigrated.

I've owned cars from around the world. My very first was a '58 Austin-Healey 100-6. TERRIBLE electrics, very tough around town. But a joy on the road, at speed and is still a head-turner. I now own a Lincoln Town car. It gets much better gas mileage than the Healey, will last much longer, is hugely more reliable than the Healey. Which one is better? Neither. They're both just cars. As were all the cars in between.

If it gives you wood to trash one marque over another, go for it. If we were discussing ATI versus nVidia you all KNOW where this thread would be...


So then my point has been proved then, which was that a v-8 is no more reliable than an inline 4.
:stick:

[Disposibleteen]

every v-8 is not going to be more reliable than an inline 4, or the other way around for that matter, it all depends on who built it, how they built it....

[Big Deel]

It also depends on load on vehicle.I know that a v-6 will wear out sooner then a v-8 when used for heavy towing or loads.This is mostly because you have to rev. the smaller motors higher to get the same power output.

[Big Deel]

Here is some new V-8 technology from G.M.
It improved the fuel economy from 30 to 35 mpg on the LS2
Just so the world knows the U.S. is not just sitting on their hands.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0405phr_gmdod/

[Rippthrough]

Been out a while.

[Rippthrough]

It also depends on load on vehicle.I know that a v-6 will wear out sooner then a v-8 when used for heavy towing or loads.This is mostly because you have to rev. the smaller motors higher to get the same power output.

Wrong again. We've already been through this on the previous pages.

[Big Deel]

Been out a while.

I never said it was new......Look at some of these post and it looks like it needs to be read by a few America bashers.
We never claim to be the best just not the worst.

As for the v-6 vs v-8 wear condition I"M NOT WRONG
This is what i do for a living.I do not disagree on anything I know nothing about,but I have a STRONG opnion about things I DO NO about.
Smaller engine do wear fast when worked at high loads.
Turbos do cause more wear than no turbo(brgs./rings)
If you think I'm wrong do some research.I get mine knowledge first hand.
We work on fleet vehicles and i have see vehicles with over 100,000 miles all the time so I can make a good assessment.

[Rippthrough]

Right, so a 3.0 V-6 versus a 3.0 V-8 then. Both pulling a trailer. The V-6 is going to be less reliable than the V-8 because it has LESS moving parts to break?

I love people who say "I do this for a living, so I'm right", without any proof to backup their claims when they are basically talking Bull****.

[Big Deel]

O yea a 3.0l V-8....thats real common...nice try to recover.

[Big Deel]

I hope all are watching the 24hrs of Daytona this weekend.It's a good place to see many different types of cars and designs.No one type of car or engine dominates there.

[Big Deel]

Not true, piston speed depends upon stroke and rpm, nothing else.

You are wrong here too.

Extra rod length reduces rod angularity and piston speed which decreases friction and noise and increases durability.

This is just basic engine knowledge.
You do have access to the web ? use it :stick:

[Rippthrough]

O yea a 3.0l V-8....thats real common...nice try to recover.


I suggest you read what we were arguing over before jumping in then.

[Big Deel]

ok
Well I was going to tell you to read the title of this thread,but since the author has been banned (SWEET) no real point in going on. :toast:

hey look we both have 62 posts...lol

[Rippthrough]

Snap :)


Extra rod length reduces rod angularity and piston speed which decreases friction and noise and increases durability.

I'm trying to keep it simple smartarse :banana:

[Disposibleteen]

Right, so a 3.0 V-6 versus a 3.0 V-8 then. Both pulling a trailer. The V-6 is going to be less reliable than the V-8 because it has LESS moving parts to break?

I love people who say "I do this for a living, so I'm right", without any proof to backup their claims when they are basically talking Bull****.
they may very well have the same amount of moving parts to break (actually the V-8 prolly has more) but the V-6 would have more strain on all of those moving parts and therefore they would give out sooner, i think this is what big deel is trying to say....

[STEvil]

Overall I would put a V-8 above a 4 or 6 cylinder engine.

Rod length also does not determine piston stroke, that is determined by the structure of the crank.

Again however, RPM's is what kills engines. You can run 300psi oil pressure on a 4-cyl vs. 100psi on a v-8 and the 4-cyl will still die sooner because the oil has less chance to lubricate the piston circumfrence and its rings which cause wear on the cylinder walls due to the higher RPM's the smaller engine must run to produce the same torque/HP as the larger engine.

Given the same displacement an 8-cyl is producing torque/HP twice as often as a 4-cyl due to twice the pistons firing per revolution of the crank.

Now to be fair here there are great 4/6-cyl engines out there and the technology is improving, but you cannot say one engine is better than another based simply on how many pistons is uses. There are so many factors that will determine the life span and durability of the engine over the number of pistons it uses.. yeah, i'd say its pretty obvious this was at least a "my country does something better than your country" thread anyways..

[bias_hjorth]

What you have to remember is the that 4 and 6 cyl engines are quite more advanced than its american 8 cyl counterpart. The newest mustang is a perfect example -
But a car that weighs in 1000kg with a 4 cyl has aprox equal durability / if not longer than the imported 8 cyl in the same car - Its not all just about the hardware - Electronics is a tremendous part of modern euro 4 cylinder - Unlike its american 8 cyl sister.

[STEvil]

If you belive american engines do not utilize electronics I guess.

[bias_hjorth]

No I dont believe that - But I know 4 cylinder and some 6 cylinder has far more advanced engine management than current 8 cyl -

Its not a coinsidence that most japaniese / european 4cyl goes around 13-16 km on 1L of petrol and still delivers around 100bhp on only 1.6l engine.
A 8 cylinder is a nice engine, which has a very large torque, but I bet you wont be seeing newer cars beeing released with v8´s in the future - Even american vehicles are using 6 cylinder now a day - I would be surpriced if they didnt use 4 cylinder in 10 years.

[Rippthrough]

Overall I would put a V-8 above a 4 or 6 cylinder engine.

Rod length also does not determine piston stroke, that is determined by the structure of the crank.

Again however, RPM's is what kills engines. You can run 300psi oil pressure on a 4-cyl vs. 100psi on a v-8 and the 4-cyl will still die sooner because the oil has less chance to lubricate the piston circumfrence and its rings which cause wear on the cylinder walls due to the higher RPM's the smaller engine must run to produce the same torque/HP as the larger engine.

Given the same displacement an 8-cyl is producing torque/HP twice as often as a 4-cyl due to twice the pistons firing per revolution of the crank.

Now to be fair here there are great 4/6-cyl engines out there and the technology is improving, but you cannot say one engine is better than another based simply on how many pistons is uses. There are so many factors that will determine the life span and durability of the engine over the number of pistons it uses.. yeah, i'd say its pretty obvious this was at least a "my country does something better than your country" thread anyways..


Yes, it's an argumentative thread at best. However please remember that although the 8-cyl is firing twice as often per rpm, it is only producing half the energy per bang (in a perfect world, it's not really due to gas flow, but lets ignore that). If you produced an 8-cyl and a 4-cyl both of the same capacity, with as much as possible the same, then the 4-cyl would have better low down torque than the 8-cyl, due to intake gas flow characteristics. If anything, the 8-cyl would need to be revved, not the other way round.

[Disposibleteen]

Yes, it's an argumentative thread at best. However please remember that although the 8-cyl is firing twice as often per rpm, it is only producing half the energy per bang (in a perfect world, it's not really due to gas flow, but lets ignore that). If you produced an 8-cyl and a 4-cyl both of the same capacity, with as much as possible the same, then the 4-cyl would have better low down torque than the 8-cyl, due to intake gas flow characteristics. If anything, the 8-cyl would need to be revved, not the other way round.
so what your saying here is that if a 4 cylinder and an 8 cylinder based car that the only difference in weight was in the engine, and they were towing the exact same trailer, and they kept their RPM exaclty the same, the 4 cylinder would pull ahead of the 8 cylinder??? I dont beleive this is at all possible.

Also why would they produce an 8 cylinder with the exact same capacity as any 4 cilynder, it kinda defeats the purpose doesnt it???

[Rippthrough]

Niether would pull ahead, as they are both operating at the same RPM :P
However if both are operating at a fairly low RPM (say less than 2.5k rpm) then yes, the 4 pot would probably have more torque.
More cylinders give more intake valve area and allows for more power at higher RPM's. It's similar to the 2 valve versus 4 valve head arguement.
I personnaly quite like revvy engines.
And as for 8-cyl engines supposedly having to have more capacity. I've seen 1L V-8's, I've also seen 42L inline 4 cylinders, and everything in between.
More capacity doesn't always mean adding more cylinders.

[STEvil]

yes, and some 8-cyl, 10-cyl, and 12-cyl engines have far more advanced engine management than 4's or 6's. Piston count means nothing.

Given the same displacement and same torque/HP per revolution of the engine the V-8 will probably pull ahead when accelerating due to more constant power (twice as many pistons firing per RPM vs. 4-cyl).

Gas flow characteristics will be engine specific so we must assume intake and outlet flow rates to be the same.

[MongoWookie]

:stick:
Thats where volumetric efficiency comes to play, how well the air - fuel mixture flows through the intake, into the combustion chamber, and out the exhaust.
:toast:

[Disposibleteen]

yes, and some 8-cyl, 10-cyl, and 12-cyl engines have far more advanced engine management than 4's or 6's. Piston count means nothing.

Given the same displacement and same torque/HP per revolution of the engine the V-8 will probably pull ahead when accelerating due to more constant power (twice as many pistons firing per RPM vs. 4-cyl).

Gas flow characteristics will be engine specific so we must assume intake and outlet flow rates to be the same.
why would any company build a v-8 with the characteristics of a 4 cylinder though, its pointless and more expensive....

[STEvil]

Mongo - agreed, however since this seems to be "4 cylinders is better than 8 cylinders" argument all characteristics must remain the same or the comparrison may as well be between how well and apple combusts vs. how well an orange will.

Disposibleteen - that was for the sake of the argument. Read what I said to mongo.

[MongoWookie]

Roger that!! :toast:

[Rippthrough]

Mongo - agreed, however since this seems to be "4 cylinders is better than 8 cylinders" argument all characteristics must remain the same or the comparrison may as well be between how well and apple combusts vs. how well an orange will.

Disposibleteen - that was for the sake of the argument. Read what I said to mongo.


I'm not saying 4 cylinders are better, I prefer as many cylinders as possible for a given capacity.
I'm just saying it's silly to dismiss an engine just because it hasn't got 8 cylinders.

[Rippthrough]

yes, and some 8-cyl, 10-cyl, and 12-cyl engines have far more advanced engine management than 4's or 6's. Piston count means nothing.

Given the same displacement and same torque/HP per revolution of the engine the V-8 will probably pull ahead when accelerating due to more constant power (twice as many pistons firing per RPM vs. 4-cyl).

Gas flow characteristics will be engine specific so we must assume intake and outlet flow rates to be the same.


Niether would pull ahead. But the 8-cyl would run smoother. Less vibration.

[Noktar]

Richest and biggest Car company is Toyota.

Best "brand" --> Fiat (Ferrari)

[Vandread]

Niether would pull ahead. But the 8-cyl would run smoother. Less vibration.
Boxer engine gives even les vibration.... (Subaru, Porsche..)

[Crankster]

True :toast:

[rookiekiller]

www.exvitermini.com LOL

[Rippthrough]

Boxer engine gives even les vibration.... (Subaru, Porsche..)


Wankel gives even less.

[Disposibleteen]

lol, jet engines give you a really smooth ride!

[black rose]

lol, jet engines give you a really smooth ride!

Strap that to a tricycle. FUN :toast:

[STEvil]

just go ride Jay Leno's turbine powered bike.

[Sup3rman]

American cars can match up to Hondas and Ferraris (performance wise).
http://www.supercars.net/Comp?sourceList=1028&CompList=1028-2490
http://www.supercars.net/Comp?sourceList=1262&CompList=1262-758

[Rippthrough]

Only in a straight line.

[STEvil]

:rolleyes:

Car performance is a function of build. All cars are built differently for different purposes to operate under different circumstances and therefore will perform differently. Your statement is not very well thought out, Rippthrough, and anyone who says the cars from one country perform better than ones from another have probably never visited the other country.

[Rippthrough]

Like I said, only in a straight line.

[naTTen]

Saw some program on Swedish TV that was called "World´s wildest police videos" or something like that. Anyway, many of the vehicles that the criminals used where like pickup´s, suv´s and big sedans(All US cars). I´m no expert but isn´t those cars like slow i general?
And isn´t there automatic gearboxes in like all US cars? = slow acceleration.
Criminals must be stupid.

However. my dads Audi a6 doesn´t feel so fast either. but what do i know i don´t even have a drivers licence. I have only driven it for practice driving.

[Big Deel]

Like I said, only in a straight line.

Yes,like your view on cars and the US.You never look past your own thoughts.You never look ouitside your own little world and never do any research before you respond.

So us some proof that the only compete in a straight line.
You been corrected before and will again........and.........and.......

[Rippthrough]

Where?
Last time Stevil blasted at me, he was wrong, and proven wrong.
Last time someone voiced that 4-cyl are crap, and that v-8's are better.
He was wrong, and admitted it, gracefully.

And as for only competing in a straight line, well the saleen can just pull over 1g in corners ( and it rides like it has no suspension while it's at it).
A Peugeot 407 can do that.

Fantastic.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong here, American cars are built to run without services for miles on end and spend most of their time in a straight line.
They meet their design targets perfectly.
Unfortunately, the Saleen can't run without servicing for miles, it doesn't handle cruising very well, and it just doesn't handle very well either, not for a supercar at any rate.

[STEvil]

as I said, american cars are built for what they are most likely to encounter.

The last time "we" (i'm canadian actually) built one good enough to beat anything out there it was banned from competition. Shelby GT500 ring a bell? Ever watched NASCAR, Indy, Formula 1, or Sprint car racing?

You could even look to the Corvette or Mustang if you want 1g cornering I believe. I havent looked up their specs for the multitude of years they were produced (Shelby GT500/Cobra is actually a mustang built by Shelby for Ford if you need some background) but numbers of approximatly 1g or exceeding that do ring a bell..

Seriously, though, you can alter the performance of many cars by suspension, steering, tires, spoilers, weight distribution, frame strength.. :rolleyes:

If this isnt speaking clealy enough, maybe if I just said "all cars are designed differently" it would be more clear? You cannot put one specific country or manufacturers vehicles above another.