VX and the Theroy that it "HAS TO BE" some special IC.

[choseone214]

VX and the Theroy that it "HAS TO BE" some special IC.

Lets talk today about a Winbond IC ;). Not some chip being remade by somoeone else, but more on the lines of the last IC they did produce in volume themselves.

For me personaly I just don't get the fact that the Winbond CH-5 IC has been so overlooked, laughed apon, or just plain dissmissed. Not once since A64 has been out have I read or seen talked about anywhere the fact that this IC truly Is good or could be great IMO It never was even a consireration to anyone.

AMD A64 Dual Channel setups from day one have shinned with a 2x512 config. Where "NO" and I mean no BH-5 can really touch.If you where to search for real benchers on these forums alone who have ran 2x512 CH-5 IC's in a 940/939 board you will see at least a 240mhz 1:1 fsb at 2-2-2-5-1t.

So that brings up the question?

What does CH-5 need that BH-5 doesnt?
easy and that is about 3.2v to hit RAS-TO-CAS of 2.

Oppainter was the first here to really show the way for this IC running his up and over 256mhz 1:1 @2-2-2-5-1t@3.xv on his 940pin fx system. Its just that with all the great overclocks on the corsair CH-5 based pc3200ll ram for the 940pin at the end of the day It was just that ram for a server board and probally specail and made to run like it did so no reason to think about tring the same config. in non ecc+reg format on 939.

Misteroadster was the first here to try CH-5 based ram in the 2x512meg config. on the 939 chipset. He ran over 250mhz 1:1@2-2-2-5-1t@3.xv, but again at that time we all looked to higher fsb speeds saying 2x256 BH-5 @ 270mhz was the only goal as we said 2x512 is no faster and 2x256 overclocks higher thus yeilds higher scores. Again passed up.

The point here is these are IC's that like BH-5 love voltage 3.2-3.8v all day long. They also are spec'd at 2-2-2-5-1t at 200mhz at 3.2v+ the exact same timings as BH-5 Ic's "Note CH-5 only needs the 3.xv for ras-to-cas of 2". They also burn in betetr than BH-5, "If BH-5 even does burn in at all". Finally what BH-5 can't always do on A64 Dual Channel Setups really well that CH-5 can is run a 2x512 config. at 240mhz+ 1:1 at 3.2v at 2-2-2-5-1t. Almsot everytime with good CH-5 sticks It should be a given.

Now Im not saying this is what Is being used, but there is stil some CH-5 around as Munshkin still uses it on every stick of PC3500 level 1 ram so its possible OCZ got some and Is jsut screening it over for optimal IC selection.

[MrQ3W]

I thought the VX was Infineon all along..

[EnJoY]

Your theory actually makes a lot of sense. Personally I don't care so much about solving the VX IC mystery, my opinion is that as long as it performs, it could be infineon and I'd still buy it. :)

However I do think it was very smart of you to think of CH5 and make the connection to VX. I've always known the facts you've presented, but I just never fit them all togethor and made a comparison. Nice sloothing. ;)

Now...let's all go find some old Corsair LL CH5 and get some 250 fsb 2-2-2 action! :P

[MightyOne]

I believe you are correct on this: according to what a TwinMOS employee said at another forum, he has found that new Winbond chips(yes, he said they still make em...), produced under cooperation with Infineon which they sell on cheap TwinMOS/M.Tec sticks show similar results as VX ...

This is the thread: http://www.forumdeluxx.de/forum/sho...?t=92587&page=1

I'm off to party now, Happy New Year to everyone!!! :toast:

(even if you have to wait a few more hours ;) )

[choseone214]

Yeah I don't care myself really as long as its good stuff and that the VX is. :) Just that so many over looked good A64 ram for 2x512 setups and Low Latency.

MightyOne,

One thread at One forum about a "TIP" from One rep?? LOL

[DevilsRejection]

what we need are these timings at only 2.8V

[mcnbns]

I think you just need a vmod, DevilsRejection. :)

Do all 2x512MB CH-5s clock like VX, or am I missing something?

[IvanAndreevich]

That's some OLD CH-5.. 0346. But it's GOOD CH-5!

mcnbns
No way. I had CH-5 which HATES volts above 2.6V and SUCKS -> only 217 6-3-3-2

[Reflex1]

i heard only the 'newer' CH-5 liked volts

[Nube]

Yep.

If you're in the UK, Komplett's stock has actually gone UP of their "TwinMOS 3200 w/ Winbond" (says CH-5 on the detailed product page) since I ordered 5 days ago.

These are possibly the latest original Winbond chips I've ever seen. :cool:
so r the TwinMOS PC3200 DDR-DIMM 512MB w/Winbond 32M*8/16chip, 184-P (for DDR-PC400MHz)

new ch-5 or bh-5 ?

[choseone214]

Wow Twinmos with CH-5 chips :) Those must have set you back alot hu?

[mcnbns]

http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=10132&vpn=INFINEON3200-512&manufacture=RAM

Look at the More Photos link under the picture of the RAM. It shows one of the chips as being Infineon BT-5. That stuff is CH-5 made by Infineon, correct?

If anyone has any results overclocking 2x512MB Infineon BT-5 I'd like to see if it's anything like VX. Thanks!

[xtrempinoy]

http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=10132&vpn=INFINEON3200-512&manufacture=RAM

Look at the More Photos link under the picture of the RAM. It shows one of the chips as being Infineon BT-5. That stuff is CH-5 made by Infineon, correct?

If anyone has any results overclocking 2x512MB Infineon BT-5 I'd like to see if it's anything like VX. Thanks!

that would be interesting if it did overclck good, i would sell my TCCD stuff, and pick up those samsungs! their only 90ish bucks Canadian right now

[mcnbns]

I think he means Infineons, unreal. :)

[STEvil]

My "old" 2x512 CH-5 do 245mhz 1.5-2-2-0 on a 754 setup with 3.30v.. CH-5 has always been fine.

[cardnut99668]

Does the hyperx 3200AK perform well?

[mcnbns]

Why not get some of this TwinMOS stuff? I'm sure CH-5 can be had for cheaper than HyperX.

[MUCHO]

This actually makes perfect sense. Speed binned CH5 chips.

Consider - they need some serious burn in to get the most out of them - sounds a lot like CH5.

Too bad I just sold my booster!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[STEvil]

and too bad winbond chips have a problem in that they do not do over cas 2.5.... I know someone is going to come in here and say "but i've had my BH/CH @ cas 3" but I have yet to see a reliable example of BH/CH chips that were capable of above CAS 2.5...

[mackanz]

Well well well. CH-5 is gone, at least under that name, but infineon is still using the exact same dies in their C-die chips so if you want to test out your theory I'm sure you can find a few sticks to test.

OCZ actually use those chips in the pc3200 platinum non rev 2 and as you can see they run 2-3-2-5 timings with 2.6V....something the VX doesn't. Also, CH5 can't take 3.5 volts without getting hot.

[Tony]

Guys i thought this debate about VX was all over :confused:

the IC's that VX are made from go thru a few stages of speed binning, Ryan has already stated if you want a much cheaper version from OCZ we will do it but there is no guarantee they will do what the VX does...i can tell you it would be a crap shoot...we have to to test them;)

Now twinmos may release a similar product but i doubt they will pre test them and im unsure what they would do with all the fails they end up with...as there will be quite a few....and will they stand behind you guys pumping 3.2V or so..i doubt it.

Our price reflects the speed binning and testing etc, and also partly goes towards the customer service you guys seem to be now enjoying...we all have to earn a wage you know;)

Also we do already use the infineons and they do best with 2.7V and many will do ddr500 with 3-3-3 timings, some do 3-3-2 and the ubber cherry ones do 2.5-3-2 at 500 also, but we don't test that high.
As far as i know the 3200Platinum and the 3200Performance rev3 were Infineon based, and are actually one of my favourite modules going on Price Vs Performance Vs Timings.

Tony

[enzoR]

what do you guys do with the fails you end up with?

[trans am]

Guys i thought this debate about VX was all over :confused:

the IC's that VX are made from go thru a few stages of speed binning, Ryan has already stated if you want a much cheaper version from OCZ we will do it but there is no guarantee they will do what the VX does...i can tell you it would be a crap shoot...we have to to test them;)

Now twinmos may release a similar product but i doubt they will pre test them and im unsure what they would do with all the fails they end up with...as there will be quite a few....and will they stand behind you guys pumping 3.2V or so..i doubt it.

Our price reflects the speed binning and testing etc, and also partly goes towards the customer service you guys seem to be now enjoying...we all have to earn a wage you know;)

Also we do already use the infineons and they do best with 2.7V and many will do ddr500 with 3-3-3 timings, some do 3-3-2 and the ubber cherry ones do 2.5-3-2 at 500 also, but we don't test that high.
As far as i know the 3200Platinum and the 3200Performance rev3 were Infineon based, and are actually one of my favourite modules going on Price Vs Performance Vs Timings.

Tony


Happy new year everyone! Tony and ocz guys, I am not trying to steal your thunder by any means. I heard some rumours and spoke with twinmos so I ordered a 256 stick of twinmos speed premium just to play with. OCZ doesn't offer 256 sticks of vx, so I was going to see if the 256 speed premium likes volts. twinmos said uses a blank utt winbond/infineon ics. I am just playing with the ram out of my own personal curiousity. don't take it personal. VX is still running at 264 2-2-2 so I can't see any other ram doing that. also like you said, ics are not the only factor. It's pcb and chip bios as well, you guys work hard machine testing and then speed binning. and the warranty is 2nd to none. :)

[situman]

who cares what they are? as long as they perform as advertised. Sooner or later someone or some other company will figure it out for us.

[trans am]

trans am.

Did you feel you needed to explain to OCZ why you bought a product over theirs? :p:


I have plenty ocz. Using vx right now. I buy many products. I just wanted ocz to know I am not trying to find cheap alternatives to VX. I'm simply doing a test with twinmos speed premium with high volts to see how it reacts. nothing more.

[Crankster]

I am trying to find cheap alternatives to VX, but so far my search has brought up zero.

Bigtoe, i looked around a bit and i came upon a swedish site selling OCZ and like every other store in sweden that does it's horribly expensive.
The difference between OCZ and other brands is a lot bigger over here.
Just letting you know.

[DevilsRejection]

why don't we setup a subforum of trusted people who buy things here in america, very rare in europe and ship it to them?

[mrlobber]

why don't we setup a subforum of trusted people who buy things here in america, very rare in europe and ship it to them?

Idea itself is not so bad. Just, as usual, the term "trusted people" is a very tricky one. Most of the more or less extreme guys in Europe already have their own channels how they're getting their good stuff for more or less good prices, but for the others who pop up only occasionally here, do not share any results and so on, the risk of them wanting to get something "for free" by using the goodwill of others might be considered too high.

There are always other risks involved as well, such as, for example, not writing the full value of the goodies you're shipping, so that European customs officers do not charge the stupid VAT (~17% or more usually, depends on country), which actually is one of the main factors which make the biggest price difference between the same things in Europe and the U.S. Also if everything goes out smoothly, there are no problems but as soon as a package would be lost (and it happens, and it's more probable in international shipping), without a tracking number (USPS Mail offers it overseas only by significantly higher shipping costs) you have a difficult situation, and not always you would be able to settle it peacefully as if there are money losses involved, many people simply lose their mind.

Of course, you might say: use express shipping, such as Fedex or DHL, pay full insurance (and simultaneously all the taxes as well) etc but (I have proven it myself) then it's not worth doing it, as in such cases the full costs would even excede the price of the item locally.

The only real strategy remaining is as follows: as soon as you show some intelligence in your posts :D, are a quite regular contributor to one of the large forums of o/cing community, maybe even make remote friends there, manage to build up at least half a dozen of reliable trading references, you do not need such a special subforum anymore because you're known enough to settle such things via PM's or e-mail with one or the other of people who know you.

I'm getting my VX exactly this way: with help from a pcperspective moderator who knew me from other forums as well, payment with Western Union, shipping by USPS Air Mail (they're still on the way).

[TEDY]

trans_am : what twinmos you talking about ? link ?

[Cyrus The Virus]

I had on my 939 rig (see signature for spec's) CH-5 but now I have BH-5. The BH-5 can reach higher clocks then the CH-5 (on max 3Vdimm) With BH-5 PiFast was more then Ã:banana: second faster then CH-5.

[STEvil]

nothing can (take 3.5v without getting hot)

/edit

[Mathias-K]

.. not writing the full value of the goodies you're shipping, so that European customs officers do not charge the stupid VAT (~17% or more usually, depends on country).

Yeah.. 17% for the poor brits.. oh wait, here in Denmark it's 25% :stick: ;) As the country (in the whole world, i think) with the highest VAT (or MOMS, as we danes call it :p: ), we danes can sometimes save quite a lot.

An X800XT for ~650$ is actually quite cheap here :rolleyes:

[stealthbomber]

Actually it's something like 17.5% plus a percentage for the customs admin fee so you are looking at closer to 20%...

[situman]

damn tahts crazy all those taxes and stuff like that.

[Wolf]

Interesting find. Back in the day, overclocking was about finding the cheapest parts and pushing them way beyond the speeds of premium parts. Not only did you get max performance but you paid half the price. Nice to see some people still looking at the chips rather than the designer label.

I'm sure the OCZ VX is good memory for the handful of people in the world that actually have a chance in competitive benchmarking. Many of them on this board. I'm still amazed at the amount of people willing to push 3.5-3.7v through there memory, cpu, board, psu on a daily basis. That can't be a 24x7 stable overclock.

Samsung IC's are much better memory IMO for stable 24x7 overclocks. They don't rely on pure brute force or stress other components near as much. VX reminds me of a 5800FX except it actually performs when pushed to xtreme levels. Not a very elegant or efficient solution by any means.
Just MY opinion.

[MrQ3W]

Yeah.. 17% for the poor brits.. oh wait, here in Denmark it's 25% :stick: ;) As the country (in the whole world, i think) with the highest VAT (or MOMS, as we danes call it :p: ), we danes can sometimes save quite a lot.

An X800XT for ~650$ is actually quite cheap here :rolleyes:

Nah we Swedes have higher, almost double on digital monitors even(though that is an EU decision if I remember correctly). :P

You have better healthcare than us but we have more expensive education system and larger public zone etc crap we haul.

[enzoR]

what do you guys do with the fails you end up with?

bump plz from you OCZ guys. You sell em to corsair/kingston? :D :p:

[abstrakt]

Now twinmos may release a similar product but i doubt they will pre test them and im unsure what they would do with all the fails they end up with...as there will be quite a few....and will they stand behind you guys pumping 3.2V or so..i doubt it.

At a 100% price difference (UK prices), I don't care if you warrant 4.2v.

[Jessfm]

So we now think that VX is picked CH-5

[situman]

I dont see any real volume manufacturer would dedicate a part of their production only to one company that sells memory to a relatively small group of enthusiasts and at a cheap price too. It just doesnt make economic sense for a ram chip manufacturer to do that unless its a real small company with high flexibility. Also if OCZ can design and produce chips that runs with high volts and tight timings for a profit, why cant big manufacturers do that? It has to be existing hardware. Otherwise the cost of new manufacturing machines would be too much for just one small memory company to soak up.