View Full Version : voltmaster
ryanpgroovy
10-22-2004, 05:40 PM
I am curious if there is still a market for memory that loves high voltages ( similar to winbond BH and OCZ EB ).
Weve been working on the special formula for high voltage lovin product here and I have a few beta samples - check out the benches these are at 3.3 ( 466 CL 2 ) and 4.0 volts ( 540 3-2-2 ) respectively using the DDR booster.
These are on a beat up Asus P4C800. I just did them at the end of the day when the betas arrived ;-)
heading home now guys , let me know what you think.... :banana:
craig588
10-22-2004, 05:48 PM
So you are planning on selling off the BH5 chips that fail at stock voltage and say that they require 3.3V? As long as it gets more BH5 chips into the market I guess its not too terrible, just don't charge the same price as you would for normal ram that passes clock tests with nominal volts.
ryanpgroovy
10-22-2004, 05:49 PM
No , These are not BH-5 ( BH are no longer in production) , they are new OCZ chips that behave like BH-5, or like the Microns we use to use for EB. :toast:
xgman
10-22-2004, 05:51 PM
Sounds like fun Ryan. ;) But you would be hard pressed to get my 3700ELPlats out of my box. :D
xgman
10-22-2004, 05:53 PM
Only thing I would be concerned about on AMD64 boards is the overvoltage protection on many 939 boards and the memory controller on the cpu die. It's been difficult to run anything over 3v on most A64 boards so far. I guess Intels don't have as much of a problem with that.
WesM63
10-22-2004, 05:53 PM
ryan,
Am i missing something? Most EB will do 250mhz but not at those timings. Is more voltage required for lower timings? I've always ran mine at the spec'd timings.
xgman
10-22-2004, 06:00 PM
The EB's (micron) and EL's (tccd) etc. won't normall'y respond well to voltage over 3v.
saaya
10-22-2004, 06:28 PM
how do they perform with 2.85v? do they still run at acceptable speeds but with lower timings and just need the volts to run with lower latency? can they take 4v for a long time?
mrlobber
10-22-2004, 11:20 PM
Well since we had benches here, BH-5 2-2-2 270 fsb to equal TCCD 2.5-3-3-7 300fsb, if OCZ could came out with something like 300fsb 2.5-2-2 (if that's possible at all with presently available DDR memory), the product would have a bright future... (for serious benchers only, though, because the not-so-xteme guys probably still would opt for TCCD memory.
Well since we had benches here, BH-5 2-2-2 270 fsb to equal TCCD 2.5-3-3-7 300fsb, if OCZ could came out with something like 300fsb 2.5-2-2 (if that's possible at all with presently available DDR memory), the product would have a bright future... (for serious benchers only, though, because the not-so-xteme guys probably still would opt for TCCD memory.
Everyone want 300fsb 2-2-2 1:1....I don't think we will see that soon with ddr1 but I would love to be proven wrong.
These modules need juice...they are spec'd to run juiced up so you probably won't like the timings they run with sub3V.
megahurtz-oc
10-23-2004, 07:31 AM
hell i feed em 12 volts if needed bring em on.
saaya
10-23-2004, 08:14 AM
hmmmm 270mhz 3-2-2... hmmm are they as fast as bh5 at 270 2-2-2? or eb at 270 2.5-2-2?
it sounds like they can compete with tccd at 300mhz, but thats right now... in some weeks tccd might run DDR700... who knows? didnt samsung switch to 90nm recently?
i think this memory could compete with tccd, but its not that much faster than tccd at 300 i guess, so it wont be that successfull. especially since it needs a lot of volts wich kinda requires a ddr booster.
i dont think it would be very successfull... just get a license from winbond to manufacture bh chips and then send the blueprints to samsung and let them build bh chips in 90nm :slobber:
Mauri Antero
10-23-2004, 08:25 AM
hmmmm 270mhz 3-2-2... hmmm are they as fast as bh5 at 270 2-2-2? or eb at 270 2.5-2-2?
no no no ;)
bh-5 and Sandra shot
http://netti.nic.fi/~jhermune/KHX3000/Sandra.JPG
WeStSiDePLaYa
10-23-2004, 08:57 AM
seems like alot of voltage for a low fsb. would rather pay from bh-5 or tccd. really i dont want to have to push 4.0v thru a a64 mem controller just to get some decent speed. any way to see some good binned TCCD with some EB pcb?
ryanpgroovy
10-23-2004, 10:14 AM
I think these are probably more suited to people who want 2-2-2 in the 420-466 range , than to super high fsb, as they should run in that range with midly high voltages ( 3.1-3.2 ) .
Dont mind those benches much I was just trying to show that they were benchable and have no tweaks on spent about 15 minutes playing with them only.
right now the Best of our TCCD are going in to plat 3700 ;-)
also about EB , EB do respond well to voltage up to about 3.2
Shade00
10-23-2004, 10:19 AM
This RAM sounds pretty bizarre, but I wouldn't mind feeding 3.3+ to them.
eva2000
10-23-2004, 10:24 AM
I am curious if there is still a market for memory that loves high voltages ( similar to winbond BH and OCZ EB ).
Weve been working on the special formula for high voltage lovin product here and I have a few beta samples - check out the benches these are at 3.3 ( 466 CL 2 ) and 4.0 volts ( 540 3-2-2 ) respectively using the DDR booster.
These are on a beat up Asus P4C800. I just did them at the end of the day when the betas arrived ;-)
heading home now guys , let me know what you think.... :banana:
well it's a start... OCZ improvements and tweaks and see 285mhz 3-2-2-6 at 3.3v would be nice heheh ....
i'm having loads of fun these days with enough vcore/vdimm via DFI NF3 250Gb and OCZ DDR Boosters on my DFI, P4C800-E etc hehe
ryanpgroovy
10-23-2004, 10:31 AM
They certainly are bizarre. Just wondering what we should do with them
OPPAINTER
10-23-2004, 10:38 AM
I am curious if there is still a market for memory that loves high voltages ( similar to winbond BH and OCZ EB ).
I have been running my BH-5 at 3.75V alot lately, 6 hours of abuse yesterday.
So yes, if the Ram does good timings and high MHz there's a market for them.
Doesn't matter what the voltage:D
OPP
mrlobber
10-23-2004, 10:42 AM
hell i feed em 12 volts if needed bring em on.
A direct 12v mod from the PSU? :devil: :explode:
Shade00
10-23-2004, 10:59 AM
They certainly are bizarre. Just wondering what we should do with them
Put em in the mail to me. I can put them to good use.
Kunaak
10-23-2004, 12:47 PM
the way I see it is, if theres a way to make fast ram at low voltages, then thats better.
using high voltages was just a side effect of wanting high speed ram, with good cas latency. it wasn't something people seek out, cause they like it.
thy do it, cause to get things like DDR 550, cas 2-2-2 ram you just needed tons of voltage.
but when possible, I'd rather have fast ram, at lower voltages.
megahurtz-oc
10-23-2004, 01:09 PM
right now the Best of our TCCD are going in to plat 3700 ;-)
will the 3700 plats run timings like the gskill at 280ish?
Popcicle
10-23-2004, 02:07 PM
Hi Ryan...
Long time no speak my man.
Sell me a couple of these Beta's and I'll beat 'em up for you and see
what they will do.
Got a Booster to torch 'em with.
DFI 250 UT will only let me have the Booster and 1 stick at a time.
I didn't jump to A64 soon enough and missed the boat on the EB supply.
Your TCCD is moving to 3700 Plat.... sounds good. I'll be looking.
Need a new challenge.
Cheers.
eshbach
10-26-2004, 06:42 AM
do these chips ever stop liking voltage or just get too hot too continue? you go up to 4v, but let's say we have a board with a straight feed from the 5v rail... would they continue to scale well from 4.0v to 4.5v+?
slavik
10-26-2004, 06:49 AM
how about an OCZ motherboard with "good" design?
MaxxxRacer
10-26-2004, 07:26 AM
Those are some interesting chips, although 4v its a little too rich for my blood.
You guys said that your going to put the tccd chips in the 3700EB... Well what is going to happen to the 3200 Platinum Rev2? As of now that seems to be your guys best memory. Will hte 3700EB get preference for better chips?
chunkylover77
10-26-2004, 07:29 AM
I have been running my BH-5 at 3.75V alot lately, 6 hours of abuse yesterday.
So yes, if the Ram does good timings and high MHz there's a market for them.
Doesn't matter what the voltage:D
OPP
Is this with the fx55 I hope to buy off you? :D
`schr0et
10-26-2004, 07:41 AM
I don't get it the EB does the same thing with volts don't they? And the new ZB DDR2 mem does 3-2-2-X also?
These memories need even more volts than EB to do 3-2-2 @ 270ish?
eva2000
10-26-2004, 09:42 AM
I don't get it the EB does the same thing with volts don't they? And the new ZB DDR2 mem does 3-2-2-X also?
These memories need even more volts than EB to do 3-2-2 @ 270ish?
nah not all PC3700EB did that once they find their individual stick max, no amount of voltage will get them higher regardless of loose timings or not... these volt loving new memory seem to do this better than 3700EB from what has been said above
WeStSiDePLaYa
10-26-2004, 10:52 AM
nah not all PC3700EB did that once they find their individual stick max, no amount of voltage will get them higher regardless of loose timings or not... these volt loving new memory seem to do this better than 3700EB from what has been said above
thats not what ive heard. ive heard all EB 3200 thru to 3700 scales fairly well with volts upto 3.2v. looser timmings also help until around 3-3-3-x.
saaya
10-26-2004, 02:02 PM
no, not all. iirc even bigtoe said that eb stops scaling at a certain voltage and higher volts just wont help. and some sticks stop at lower volts wile others keep scaling.
Nanobot
10-26-2004, 02:24 PM
Look to be another great OCZ product.
Problem is I have EL3200rev2 on the way,OCZ just has to slow down new product release,my wallet cant keep up...
BTW :ETA on these ?
no, not all. iirc even bigtoe said that eb stops scaling at a certain voltage and higher volts just wont help. and some sticks stop at lower volts wile others keep scaling.
Agreed my EB3500 did not even respond to voltage above 2.9v,3.0 yeilded no improvement.
Ryan,will these new chips be "certified" to run higher voltage and not void the warranty above 3.0v?
Rabbi_NZ
10-26-2004, 06:57 PM
It may be a good idea to let some of the gurus round these parts hav a beta test of the modules... if an independant review is done it will hold more water... no doubt this is already happening and I need to put my head back in the sand :)
Complete specs would be nice Ryan...
Max supported VDimm
FSB / Timings to expect
Chips used (if that can be disclosed)
I like it
saaya
10-26-2004, 07:07 PM
hmmm i dont think its hynix, i dont know any hynix memory that likes volts... but samsung! samsung memory loves volts! and it runs hot! maybe some older samsung memory? not tccd but another type... hmmm
Rabbi_NZ
10-26-2004, 07:08 PM
il bet saaya's kidney it's Micron :)
STEvil
10-26-2004, 08:26 PM
probably.
Only winbond and micron have ever liked volts that I have seen. Samsung back in the TCB3 days... but thats it.
WeStSiDePLaYa
10-26-2004, 08:38 PM
il bet saaya's kidney it's Micron :)
ok, ill take that and raise you saaya's left teste. :banana:
Gogeta
10-26-2004, 08:47 PM
hmmm i dont think its hynix, i dont know any hynix memory that likes volts... but samsung! samsung memory loves volts! and it runs hot! maybe some older samsung memory? not tccd but another type... hmmm
The Hynix chips on my OCZ PC4400 work well under 3.2-3.3v, but thats not exactly "extreme" BH5 voltage range. I have the exact IC model number in an email from Bigtoe, but Gmail is down.
Edit: They are Hynix BTD5 chips.
Its not Hynix...its not Micron...its not BH6 or BH5....you guys can guess all you want, we ain't tellin..LOL
We look for low latency, we found it with G die Micron but that ran out, we found a new source and this needs to be kept secret for a while.
Guys just respect we found something new and we are bringing it to the masses as cheap as we can.
Mongoose420
10-27-2004, 01:57 AM
thats alot of volts. im glad i got EB when i did just after production restart.
http://welloverclocked.com/273-32210.jpg
these sticks also did 260 3-3-2-10 1T at 2.8vdimm. Good stuff, any chance of the -5bg chips mature'n into what the -5bc was able to do on a consistant basis? or are the g die microns gone also? havnt been keeping track.
MaxxxRacer
10-27-2004, 07:52 AM
big toe.. but i want to make my OWN memory modules! lol...
if its not micron and not hynx its samsung... but the best samsung chips are the tccd unless there is something we dont know yet...
Its not Hynix...its not Micron...its not BH6 or BH5....you guys can guess all you want, we ain't tellin..LOL
We look for low latency, we found it with G die Micron but that ran out, we found a new source and this needs to be kept secret for a while.
Guys just respect we found something new and we are bringing it to the masses as cheap as we can.
I KNOW WHICH IS !!!!! :banana4:
ELIXIR/NANYA chip w000t LOL :stick:
eshbach
10-27-2004, 08:11 AM
infineon makes mems too... could be an infineon chip, no?
Holst
10-27-2004, 08:46 AM
I might be interested in some of these if they can beat my Bh5.
I dont have any real problem pumping 4v through the ram as long as they dont die after a few weeks.
celemine1Gig
10-27-2004, 09:51 AM
That is actually quite likely.
I know very limited supplies of Infineon BT-5 can do 2-2-2-5.
^ Could be bought in Japan.
I think it's Mosel Vitelic RAM, but that's only a guess.I know those can do 2-3-2-11 at 200 MHz with low voltage, so perhaps they can do more but nobody tested yet. :rolleyes:
WeStSiDePLaYa
10-27-2004, 10:53 AM
i bet its some Lei chips! :D
saaya
10-27-2004, 12:56 PM
so no matter who wins i lose my guts eh? :(
lol :D
ryan or tony, so whats the max volts it will be rated to run with officially? and will it need extra cooling?
Shade00
10-27-2004, 01:11 PM
Same question here, Saaya. I'd like to see how they'd run with 3.4v. I just upped my 3.3v line to 3.5v, so I've got some pretty decent voltage available.
Crankster
10-27-2004, 01:13 PM
Pats his An50R...
Eric(back at the office) ran 4V on some although that may be a little excessive.I will ask a few questions for you and hopefully get some answers.
thephenom
10-28-2004, 10:52 AM
Is it true that these are unmarked winbond chips of some sort? Perhaps the leftover inventory winbond had before closing down?
Mongoose420
10-28-2004, 10:56 AM
Is it true that these are unmarked winbond chips of some sort? Perhaps the leftover inventory winbond had before closing down?
he allready said repeatedly that they are not going to release what ic's these are. give the guy a break allready.
OCZEric
10-28-2004, 05:35 PM
More Voltmaster stuff....2-2-2-10 at 260FSB on the MSI K8N Neo 2.
Rabbi_NZ
10-28-2004, 05:41 PM
that's real nice, is that 260 2-2-2-10 at 3.2v?!
Looks a bit like Mushkin TCCD...
TCCD 2-2-2-5 @ 255mhz @ 3.3v (http://xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=578611#post578611)
Nanobot
10-28-2004, 05:42 PM
NICE! :slobber:
ETA when it's going to be available ?
Or are you guys just testing the waters ?
ryanpgroovy
10-29-2004, 09:32 AM
testing the waters for now ,
saaya
10-29-2004, 11:40 AM
Same question here, Saaya. I'd like to see how they'd run with 3.4v. I just upped my 3.3v line to 3.5v, so I've got some pretty decent voltage available.
doesnt the dfi use the 5v rail to create vdimm? 0_o
and be carefull with the 3.3v rail! bowman said he killed several a64s with a too high 3.3v rail of 3.6/3.7v!
and those results look really nice! really really nice! :toast:
what will the average sticks do with 3.2v? 250 2-2-2? 250 3-2-2?
or is this the result from an average stick of those ic's? :slobber:
WeStSiDePLaYa
10-29-2004, 11:43 AM
doesnt the dfi use the 5v rail to create vdimm? 0_o
the nf2 boards did. but the new dfi UT uses the 3.3v rail. there are modded bios that will let you use vdimm .1v less than your 3.3v rail is at.
OCZEric
10-29-2004, 12:39 PM
and those results look really nice! really really nice! :toast:
what will the average sticks do with 3.2v? 250 2-2-2? 250 3-2-2?
or is this the result from an average stick of those ic's? :slobber:
This was an average pair. Most shouuld be able to do this speed on the MSI board anyway. On the P4C800 the max speed is quite a bit lower..."only" 225.
Actually, I think I may have been capped at the max our MSI Neo2 could do, as I have just found out that I can't get anything to work over 260 now.
So it is possible that it could go even faster. It'll have to wait for a new Neo 2 though. I'll post when I get the new board in.
EDIT: Also, this was with a pair of modules (note the dual channel in the pic) :)
Nanobot
10-29-2004, 01:32 PM
Nice but only 5 loops of #5 test is hardly considered stable.
Care to post a screenie with 50+ loops of #5 done when you get the replacement mobo ?
Nice but only 5 loops of #5 test is hardly considered stable.
Care to post a screenie with 50+ loops of #5 done when you get the replacement mobo ?
We will do...the more you juice em up the higher they go.
MaxxxRacer
10-29-2004, 02:23 PM
why are the aidia results so low comparatively?? running in single channel.. and is that 2-2-2-2 timmings!!
ryanpgroovy
10-29-2004, 02:35 PM
Weird about the everest results , exspecialy considering AIDAlatency score is so good
saaya
10-29-2004, 02:38 PM
whats wrong with sciencemark? always thougt its the best alternative fro sandra...
They are not that low really, remember this is 1 modules single channel.Sandra buffered is FSB driven more than bandwidth, the unbuffered is bang on though as my EB at 280 gives 2600+.
The everest latency got me though, thats the lowest i have ever seen.
drunkenmaster
10-29-2004, 03:53 PM
didn't, errm, was it bigtoe when he basically announced the plat rev 2 and the plat 3700 say both were tccd? isn't that what ryan is pointing out, best stuff goes in the higher rated ram? If thats the case then shouldn't everyone be buying that and not the 3200 rev 2 so much?
(can't remember if ryan tccd talk was last page or other thread, went from one to the other and canne remember)
pythagoras
10-29-2004, 04:25 PM
Hi Bigtoe,
I recieved one of your ddr boosters in the competition ran on this site recently. Thankyou very much :D . I'm about 35 minutes from Manchester city centre, wouldnt mind meeting up if you have time to discuss optimising ram based on your booster coupled with sub zero temps. Have any experiments been done with ram at those temps?
Regards
John.
WeStSiDePLaYa
10-30-2004, 08:07 PM
so did OCZ drop these or what?
saaya
10-30-2004, 11:05 PM
so did OCZ drop these or what?
what makes you think so?
enzoR
10-31-2004, 04:39 AM
well tccd is doing really well atm... i dont think there is much point in this :confused:
Holst
10-31-2004, 05:02 AM
well tccd is doing really well atm... i dont think there is much point in this :confused:
Unless its quite a bit cheaper....
I dont wantto pay for TCCD, its not worth the money over my Bh5.
We haven't dropped it m8, TCCD does 245+ 2-2-2 when rammed with voltage, this stuff just keeps going...260+ with ease and im sure you guys will do even better ;)
Nanobot
10-31-2004, 04:50 PM
Does this mean it will be released ?
Sorry to ask again but I'm going BH-5 route if the *OCZ PC3200 Voltmaster LE Gold * (a seems like that would be a good name,no?) are not going to market.
trans am
11-17-2004, 03:45 PM
More Voltmaster stuff....2-2-2-10 at 260FSB on the MSI K8N Neo 2.
I see 1024mb in this memtest screenie. I've never had 2x512 BH5 do anything over 240 1T. So if you can run a gig of this stuff at that speed and can keep the prices competitive with TCCD, I would say these are going to fly off the shelves. I want 'em!
http://xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18406
Nanobot
11-17-2004, 06:21 PM
Ditto to what Trans am said .
I'll get the first PC4200EL Platinum that comes in to canada but if OCZ can tell us if/when the voltmaster will be released,I'll hold off for those instead.
Even a hint,anything so we know what's up with this RAM.I just let a few good BH-5 bargains slide by just because I'm hoping for the Volmaster to make it to retail...
ryanpgroovy
11-17-2004, 06:28 PM
even at 3.3 volts eh ?
trans am
11-17-2004, 06:40 PM
even at 3.3 volts eh ?
Even at 3.6v!
Shade00
11-17-2004, 06:47 PM
So, no comment on when (or if) these will be released, ryan? I'm looking for some new RAM, and I wouldn't mind giving my business to OCZ...
Rabbi_NZ
11-17-2004, 06:54 PM
I've seen 2x512 at 250+ on nForce2 and nForce3... that aside, I would definately buy this RAM over anything else right now.
I'm curious if it scales with looser timings though?
Bigtoe, Ryan, Eric,
Could you show us some benches with looser timings? like 2.5-3-3/3-2-3/2.5-4-4 or whatever this RAM reponds too please?
Thanks in advance!
ryanpgroovy
11-17-2004, 06:56 PM
I will check into the release date guys , and try to layout the info for everyone .. It does seem to be coming soon as we are wrapping up testing on the first production run.
Eric will test how it scales at slightly looser timings tomorow
Shade00
11-17-2004, 07:01 PM
Awesome. That's what I wanted to hear. Hope they're out by Christmas!
Another question that you might not be able to answer: how much do you think they'll cost?
ryanpgroovy
11-17-2004, 07:11 PM
They should be cheaper than our 3200 plat rev 2 product , thats all I know
conrad.maranan
11-17-2004, 07:16 PM
They should be cheaper than our 3200 plat rev 2 product , thats all I know
Are you serious? Man. I should've held off on the 3200s then. :( Well. There's always ebay. ;)
trans am
11-17-2004, 07:31 PM
Are you serious? Man. I should've held off on the 3200s then. :( Well. There's always ebay. ;)
Conrad, your sig rules! I actually laughed out loud after reading that!
conrad.maranan
11-17-2004, 07:43 PM
Thanks, bro. It truly does apply to what we do. I'd like to buy these Voltmasters and see what message of good fortune my monitor has to display. ;)
By the way, will you be buying a set? If you do, you're pushing $1200 in memory in about a month. :slobber:
trans am
11-17-2004, 07:50 PM
Thanks, bro. It truly does apply to what we do. I'd like to buy these Voltmasters and see what message of good fortune my monitor has to display. ;)
By the way, will you be buying a set? If you do, you're pushing $1200 in memory in about a month. :slobber:
Oh, I definitley plan on being one of the 1st outside of ocz to own these voltage beauties. I have 0 credit card debt. I paid everything off. I only use my debit card or buy things strictly with my Paypal debit card. I sell the crap on Ebay and the funds stay in Paypal, only to be spent again on computer ram lol.
conrad.maranan
11-17-2004, 07:58 PM
I'll see how a few people do with these modules before I take the plunge. My wife is going to kill me when she notices $300 "missing" from our account again. :cussing:
G H Z
11-17-2004, 08:06 PM
Well if $300 goes missing by her then I think you should be OKhttp://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif
Nanobot
11-17-2004, 08:18 PM
They should be cheaper than our 3200 plat rev 2 product , thats all I know
WOOT! Now THAT's good news :D
quicksilverXP
11-17-2004, 08:28 PM
Wow... I haven't been to this thread in a while. So the "Voltmaster" is actually a set of voltage loving memory modules that aren't TCCD. And will be cheaper than ho wmuch I paid for my 4200 ELs that do no better than my 3200 Rev. 2's? My god... can't wait.
conrad.maranan
11-19-2004, 11:01 AM
I will check into the release date guys , and try to layout the info for everyone .. It does seem to be coming soon as we are wrapping up testing on the first production run.
Eric will test how it scales at slightly looser timings tomorow
Any news?
That's very nice indeed :slobber:
xgman
11-19-2004, 01:16 PM
So who made these base chips?
Nanobot
11-19-2004, 01:22 PM
See this thread for new Voltmaster Extreme info:
High voltage lovin voltmaster,pics,specs,release date (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46152)
iddqd
12-21-2004, 07:35 PM
No , These are not BH-5 ( BH are no longer in production) , they are new OCZ chips that behave like BH-5, or like the Microns we use to use for EB. :toast:
There are still BH-5 ICs available on the market; OCZ could buy them up and start making pc 3500 platinum again; the trouble is that most of those aren't good "overclocking" weeks anymore; and I imagine it would be higly unprofitable to buy all of them up and find out that only ~20% are any good.
Its not Hynix...its not Micron...its not BH6 or BH5....you guys can guess all you want, we ain't tellin..LOL
We look for low latency, we found it with G die Micron but that ran out, we found a new source and this needs to be kept secret for a while.
Guys just respect we found something new and we are bringing it to the masses as cheap as we can.
BH-4? http://www.free-image-host.org/images/699618336emot-q.gif