Vapochill Optimizations

[mike.elmes]

Hi All,

I have been researching mods that could be done to our aging vapo machinery, that we all spent many sheckles on, so here it is. I will be undergoing these mods on two of my systems if anyone cares to see first how I fare.


> Optimization tricks



Optimization tricks :

Yes there are some simple things do do, but as it's quite complicated for the average Joe, and it's not free to visit an A/C technician, we have chosen not to go public with this.

If you do an successful attempt, it's OK with us that you post it in here, as it will then look like a user to user tip...

OK - go tell you A/C Tech. that he should implement a suction accumulator just in front of the compressor suction pipe. Then take all of the Capillary tube and wind it about the suction accumulator (The suction accumulator look exactly like the drier).

Then charge it with 55 - 60Gr. of 134a, and you will freeze down to -25'C and still be able to remove 130W at minus degrees.

__________________

I will be the guinea pig and give it a try first.

mike

.

[TheDude]

Thanks for sharing. You might wanna edit it so it does not seem that they are saying to do this. Know what I mean..kinda relieve them of any blame, that's why they didn't post it in public.;)

[mike.elmes]

great idea:)

[Bulldog20]

Hehe, naughty boy mike ;)
giving secrets away :D

Yes is a good idea :D

Cheers

[|PuNiSh3R|]

"Then charge it with 55 - 60Gr. of 134a, and you will freeze down to -25'C and still be able to remove 130W at minus degrees."

Just to let you know.. that's complete bullöööö.. but Vapochill pulls the wool over everyone again! woohoo!

[will_perdikakis]

Just to let you know.. that's complete bullööööAgreed.

Hey Pun, if you like that. You will love this. (http://www.overclockershideout.com/movies/chiller/chiller1.WMV)

Now look at the price. :)

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Yea.. I watched that.. such bullöööö.. In the world of phase change.. it's very easy to pull bullöööö on the unsuspecting buyer because they have next to nothing in knowledge of it.

The vapochill guys went ahead and send out a bullöööö tip.. to get this guy offa their backs.. The AC tech you would take your system to would be off his rocker to agree with vapochill.. and they are hoping that you won't spend the extra money to do it.

Now they should of gave you VALUABLE INFORMATION such as adding a performence boosting agent to that POS R-134a! Like Qwik-boost. or however u spell it. OR they coulda gave you EVEN BETTER TIPS! like.. THROW THAT HUNK OF öööö 12V COMPRESSOR IN THE GARBAGE and put in a real 1/4-1/3HP compressor.. or better yet.. a 1/2HP compressor..

I think it's time to email the vapochill "techs" and school them.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Btw, I'm glad someone here (will_perdikakis) had the brains enough to not agree with (mike.elmes)'s (not his fault vapoöööö lied to him) "tip".

[will_perdikakis]

Chill out dude. Maybe he is happy with his purchase/upgrade.

It is ok to have an opinion, but don't knock the hustle baby.

Back to the OCHO video, I love the part where they say something like, "It is not that cold now because there is no thermal load. Once you put a thermal load, the 'machine' will work harder and the temps will drop." I also love the -50C fluid temps they are claiming with an R134a based chiller.

Eck at the 12v compressor. :O

[Bulldog20]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
"Then charge it with 55 - 60Gr. of 134a, and you will freeze down to -25'C and still be able to remove 130W at minus degrees."

Just to let you know.. that's complete bullöööö.. but Vapochill pulls the wool over everyone again! woohoo!

Lo, could you help me understand the Bullooo as it's put. The mod will help old vapo users upgrade there units for alittle more cooling. It's up to the user, Asetek don't care if you upgrade or not.
This info come about from a question asked about upgrading the old socket to a SE unit. Whats so bad about giving info about this to people. I don't see any bull there. You saying that the old socket cools the same and the mod will not increase anything?
How did you get to this conclusion?


Cheers

[|PuNiSh3R|]

I get to this conclusion because I ACTUALLY HAVE KNOWLEDGE IN PHASE CHANGE COOLING!!

FIRST OFF -25C is IMPOSSIBLE with R-134a with what they are telling you to do! The only way you'd see -25C with the vapochill system is if the system ran with a very small charge.. Which would have you running in a vacuum.. But that would leave you with öööö for heatload capacity. They are telling you to put an accumulator on the suction line and charge the system with extra freon.. What this will do is increase your heatload.. YES.. and it will also stop liquid slugging that will happen from adding this extra freon. But it will by no MEANS "freeze" your cpu to -25C under 130w heatload! That statement there is such a heap of öööö it isn't even funny!

When you add that extra freon.. you will increase your heatload capacity.. but your temps will also go up.

Also if you read closely.. You see how they say,
still be able to remove 130W at minus degrees.
I believe what they mean here is keep your CPU under 0C.. which is 32F.. SO you have an evaporator block that gives you -25C .. ok sure.. Put the block on your CPU.. turn your PC on.. wow.. where did that -25C go? Once again.. Vapochill plays on the lovely temp of the evaporator block and the wording of their e-mails.. etc.. to sell to people.. then when/if you b tch about the POS they just say, READ OUR WEBSITE!

GRRR! You people gotta read more better to see that bullöööö.

I wasn't flaming him.. Just amazed how everyone jumped on the WOW YOU ARE SO AWESOME! VAPOCHILL IS SO SMART! bandwagon..

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Love my new signature?

[Bulldog20]

Lo, I understand what your saying now. I think the wording is wrong. They mean the unit will now fall to -25, it will not cool the CPU at that temp. The 130watt is saying, that you can then remove 130watts of heat in minus temp showing on the CC. Should be around -5dc.
As you said above, if the coolant level is increased this wouldn't work, but as you said, if you reduce the coolant then yes. Well the new SE has about 55-65g of R-134A coolant. The older vapochill has 85g of coolant, if I'm not mistaken. So the level is reduced a small amount, giving you an Approx 30watts extra cooling in minus temp on the chillcontrol.

Cheers :D

[Bulldog20]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
Love my new signature?

Very Adult. :D

[|PuNiSh3R|]

As you said above, if the coolant level is increased this wouldn't work, but as you said, if you reduce the coolant then yes.

Um.. If you reduce the coolant.. than no.. Reduce coolant gives lower temps on the evap with less heatload capacity. Increase coolant gives you higher temps with a higher heatload capacity. I don't know anything about the new vapochill unit.. or the old one really.. But increasing and decreasing the refrigerant won't do much in their systems. They need to ditch that sack of öööö 12VDC compressor!

So what do u get with the original vapo now at 130w heatload? 0-2C?

The new SE version gives you..? -5C? either way.. garbage.. If I was going to buy a unit.. I'd go with the prometeia any day over the vapo.. But.. I have the knowledge to build myself a much better unit anyway :)

[mike.elmes]

Please note....the reason I started this thread was to help people with the original Vapochill to possibly get a boost in cooling

I have 2 original Vapochills which could benefit from an empty and recharge. If using less r134a is an improvement...so be it.

These Vapochills are still a good bit better than air cooling, so if I could referbish them, great. I posted here because there are friends here that could also benefit from this as well.

Hope no one was offended,

Peace to all,

mike

[|PuNiSh3R|]

mike.. I would really hate to have to flame you here.. Maybe you aren't reading.. This "tip" that vapochill gave you is a sack of §§§§.. and it won't work worth crap to you. First off.. an "AC tech" will charge you more then it's worth to do this.. You are looking for an accumulator.. They go for about 20 bux.. Vapochill is telling you to get a very cheap version of an accumulator.. anyway.. The 1C difference you MAY get won't be worth the price it will cost you to do this "mod". Simply emptying the system and recharging it won't do sh t for you either.. Freon doesn't just go bad.. Vapochill should of charged this system to it's max performence before they even sent it out..

No one here is offended.. I am just trying to help you people understand that what vapochill is telling you to do won't work like you are thinking! SAVE YOUR MONEY!

[Hardass]

I would really hate to have to flame you here.

Lets not resort to this, you can make your point without it. If people don,t want to listen or take your advise it is thier choice.:)

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Yea.. I understand.. I'm cool.

[Hardass]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
Yea.. I understand.. I'm cool.

:thumbsup:

[mike.elmes]

So PuNiSh3R,

If my evap head now runs around -17c with no load...not on the cpu...Are they saying that after the mod I will be able to get down to -25c??


That is a step in the right direction. If I can realize a temp drop of 8c and it doesn't cost too much, it may be worth it.

Mabe I'll ask about Quick boost or some type of agent that can be added.

Your help here is appreciated.:)

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Ok, as Bulldog20.. who seems to be a mod on the vapochill forum.. *i've never heard of..*

"The older vapochill has 85g of coolant"

THe new version he says carries 55-65g of r-134a.. What is so "new" about this "SE" version? It would seem to me that you would benefit from losing some freon in your system.. taking it down to .. idk.. 35g? Then filling it to 60g with qwuick-boost.. Or better yet.. charge it with 45g R-290 (propane) and then 10g of r-134a.. That should give you a good performance gain.. Let you see something around -30C on the evap no load.. but I'm not sure.. I've never worked with a vapochill or anything so.. Much better solutions out their then just throwing more freon into an already overloaded? system...

[mike.elmes]

Thanx PuNiSh3R,

I am willing to experiment a little with this, as ultimately, I just want the Coldest. Should I still be asking them for the suction accumulator??

I spoke with the technician who will be doing it and he said he can do whatever I ask. Will the compressor be OK with a mixture of propane and r134a?? Can they just bleed off 50g of the r134a and top it off with quick boost or propane totaling around 55g.

What do you reccomend my friend.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

The best thing for them to do.. what a REAL tech would do is open the system.. put 2 access valves on.. one on low side and the other on high.. you don't need an accumulator but it wouldn't hurt.. if you don't mind spending some dollars.. the best thing to do would be to add a sub-cooler/accumulator combo.. I'd charge the system with mainly propane and some 134a.. or 75% 134a and then 25% quickboost.. but I'm not sure about the quickboost mixture.. never used it before.. Propane will run fine in the system.. with the 134a added in you will see a nice boost in performance over straight 134a. Maybe even a mixture of 134a, propane.. and quick-boost.. hmm.

[mike.elmes]

Thanx PuNiSh3R,

I will try it and post back here when it's done...we will somehow improve this.

many thanx,

mike

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Oh btw.. I'm guessing with that lovely tip from vapochill .. if you carry out the mod it voids your warranty.. so..

Anyway.. If you want to make it better.. chuck that sack of §§§§ 12v compressor.

[Bulldog20]

Lo Pun, just for I will say, if your unit is still in warranty, wait until your 1 years warranty is up. Most of you will already have pasted this point :D

Ok Pun ;)


Cheers

[TheDude]

I want to point out that this was a private email that was sent to Mike. It was never meant to be publicly posted. Mike wanted to share this with us and forgot to edit it first. This is not something that Vapochill is saying you should do. Mike was just trying to help members who still have the old style Vapo get a little more performance.

|PuNiSh3R] We are all well aware of how you feel about prefab units. Please keep in mind that not everyone has your experience in this type of xtreme cooling.

I am sure that Vapochill owners are happy to see someone here from the company to help them.:D

[|PuNiSh3R|]

I don't know how you became a mod of the vapo cooling forum TheDude..

Don't give me crap about "how I feel about prefab units" and I'm not here telling ANYONE to build their own system.. I am posting in this thread to tell people that this "tip" that vapochill gave Mike is a load of §§§§.. and I am trying to save people their MONEY AND TIME... Adding an accumulator to the vapochill isn't the magic cure to make it oogles better. I'm not here specificly bashing vapochill.. I am just telling people not to waste their time on the mod because it won't give them better performence. You can only put so much freon in a system.. accumulator or not.. the compressor is the problem in this system and it isn't able to move the freon fast enough as is.

Don't take this as a flame..

[JBELL]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
I don't know how you became a mod of the vapo cooling forum TheDude..

Don't give me crap about "how I feel about prefab units" and I'm not here telling ANYONE to build their own system.. I am posting in this thread to tell people that this "tip" that vapochill gave Mike is a load of §§§§.. and I am trying to save people their MONEY AND TIME... Adding an accumulator to the vapochill isn't the magic cure to make it oogles better. I'm not here specificly bashing vapochill.. I am just telling people not to waste their time on the mod because it won't give them better performence. You can only put so much freon in a system.. accumulator or not.. the compressor is the problem in this system and it isn't able to move the freon fast enough as is.

Don't take this as a flame..

just a thought but instead of swearing and saying someon is full of garbage... to nicely put it..

in all your glory punisher what do you recommend - if you are.. as good as you say.. then tell us the cheapest vbest way to fix a problem instead of bashing a solution that does work for people...

and btw TheDude is mod cuase of his attitude and knowledge.. I like his attitude he maintains a very high level of professionalism and helps people any way he can.. IE. offering advice instead of bashing others...

JBELL

ps. that is an open ticket to flame me if you ''feel the need'' cuase my solution isn't the best by your standards.... nobody can be perfect.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

HOnest to god.. I never flamed anyone here.. Several times I state how to make it better.. if you don't read my whole posts.. than go ahead.. put an accumulator on the system.. and have fun.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

OH and Since I don't offer anyone advice here.. and TheDude seems to know a TON about phase change cooling.. the only reason I started posting in this thread was to stop people from wasting their money with this mod. But that's nice good advice.. I know.. I never give advice.

[JBELL]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
OH and Since I don't offer anyone advice here.. and TheDude seems to know a TON about phase change cooling.. the only reason I started posting in this thread was to stop people from wasting their money with this mod. But that's nice good advice.. I know.. I never give advice.

hey man I do not want to get off on the wrong foot here.

#1 I never said you didn't know your stuff

#2 as admin on sabatical and tech support guy for XS, I do not have time to read every new post .. I DO read what is brought to my attention and threads that pretain to what I have and use...

#3 I am sure you help a lot here - and that is appreciated, but what I see in this thread is you calling someone full of :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: and that people should stay away from that solution... well where are the other options?? TheDude does know a lot .. but not everything , nobody does that is why we have these forums so we can learn.. and grow and benefit off each other, not act like little kids in saying DON'T DO THIS IT IS §§§§!!! the majority of the member do not have the luixury, money, time, experience, or even intelligence to do all custom builds of xtreme freon cooled rigs - I know I can't , I have a QPower case, a prefab H2O rig. I love it.. it is better than anything I have built or bought before..

Prefab gear is a good thing for the majority.. props to you to knwoing better - can you maybe write up a news article or create a DIY thread?

[|PuNiSh3R|]

#1 "in all your glory punisher what do you recommend - if you are.. as good as you say.. " - Don't humor me

#2 "as admin on sabatical and tech support guy for XS, I do not have time to read every new post .. I DO read what is brought to my attention and threads that pretain to what I have and use..." - Don't come around knocking me because someone told you to come and cry to me because they took something I said wrong and they want me to be spanked.

#3 I don't have time to write the other pieces to my original phase change article right now. If you look at the first page of this thread you will see how many times this Mike.Elmes guy has said THANK YOU to me for helping him.

I already stated solutions to make the vapochill better.. why are you still on my ass about "flaming" the vapochill and making fun of their tech people? Their tech people tell you to go and do things that won't do a pile of §§§§ for you.. Atleast I am here telling people what to do to MAKE their investment in the vapochill better.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

ANd stop bringing up DIY.. I only once said anything in this thread about building your own unit.. and that is when I said if I made a choice between a unit it would be prometeia over vapochill anyday.. but I'd sooner build my own since I have the knowledge.. I never went off on a tangent telling everyone to build their own system and crucifying those that buy prefab.. I am actually telling mike.elmes and others THAT WANT TO PAY ATTENTION how to make their vapo's better.

I ain't got anything against you Jbell.. but read the whole thread before you go off on me about something I never did just because someone has brought a tid-bit of this thread to your attention.

BTW, Here is a tip.. the original vapochill is charged with 75-85g of R-134a.. They are telling you to install an accumulator.. which would be used in the case of either having a small heatload so all of your freon isn't being boiled off.. which can just be solved by lowering the freon charge.. or you have a varying thermal load.. So you charge the system to handle the highest continual heatload at the best temp possible.. but then when your thermal load goes down.. you start to get liquid slugging in the compressor because not all of your liquid freon is being evaporated before it gets back to the compressor. That is why you would use an accumulator..

Ok, so follow me on this.. The original vapo was charged with 75-85g of freon.. right? Let's say that this is the correct charge to give you the best results at the highest continual heatload. Now when your PC is idle.. you'd expect to have liquid slugging in the compressor.. right? So they should tell you to just install the accumulator and charge the system back to 75-85g of 134a..t hat would make the most sense to me.

Mike, before you go and do anything with your vapo.. do me a favor.. Turn your PC on.. let it sit idle for several minutes.. then I want you to feel around the compressor.. The line that goes to the evap block on the CPU.. goes back to the compressor.. Feel by this line.. feel all around the compressor thier.. go ahead and slip your finger under some of the insulation on that line then.. Does it feel really cold? Is their frost on the compressor anywhere?

All vapochill owners.. do this and let me know the results.. Vapochill original and SE owners that is.. I can further help you once I know the outcome.

[JBELL]

I ain't got anything against you Jbell.. but read the whole thread before you go off on me about something I never did just because someone has brought a tid-bit of this thread to your attention.


where did I go off on you?
whatever man.. I didn't come in here to start a problem - yes you know your stuff from what I read but you also have amasingly a shorter fuse than me and with that and out of respect for what I call home in this forums I will end the debate here.

JBELL

[Bulldog20]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
ANd stop bringing up DIY.. I only once said anything in this thread about building your own unit.. and that is when I said if I made a choice between a unit it would be prometeia over vapochill anyday.. but I'd sooner build my own since I have the knowledge.. I never went off on a tangent telling everyone to build their own system and crucifying those that buy prefab.. I am actually telling mike.elmes and others THAT WANT TO PAY ATTENTION how to make their vapo's better.

I ain't got anything against you Jbell.. but read the whole thread before you go off on me about something I never did just because someone has brought a tid-bit of this thread to your attention.

BTW, Here is a tip.. the original vapochill is charged with 75-85g of R-134a.. They are telling you to install an accumulator.. which would be used in the case of either having a small heatload so all of your freon isn't being boiled off.. which can just be solved by lowering the freon charge.. or you have a varying thermal load.. So you charge the system to handle the highest continual heatload at the best temp possible.. but then when your thermal load goes down.. you start to get liquid slugging in the compressor because not all of your liquid freon is being evaporated before it gets back to the compressor. That is why you would use an accumulator..

Ok, so follow me on this.. The original vapo was charged with 75-85g of freon.. right? Let's say that this is the correct charge to give you the best results at the highest continual heatload. Now when your PC is idle.. you'd expect to have liquid slugging in the compressor.. right? So they should tell you to just install the accumulator and charge the system back to 75-85g of 134a..t hat would make the most sense to me.

Mike, before you go and do anything with your vapo.. do me a favor.. Turn your PC on.. let it sit idle for several minutes.. then I want you to feel around the compressor.. The line that goes to the evap block on the CPU.. goes back to the compressor.. Feel by this line.. feel all around the compressor thier.. go ahead and slip your finger under some of the insulation on that line then.. Does it feel really cold? Is their frost on the compressor anywhere?

All vapochill owners.. do this and let me know the results.. Vapochill original and SE owners that is.. I can further help you once I know the outcome.

No none here on my PE and Classic :D
Yes this would happen, IF you were running stock or low Vcore.Which really wouldn't be much point in owning a phase cooler :D


Cheers

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Ok.. than you have no need for an accumulator.. Accumulator just stops liquid slugging.. I'd just have access ports put on the system using standard flare T fittings and shrader valves.. than charge with 55-65g of 134a.. or a mix of 134a and propane.. or 134a and quickboost.. etc.. You can always do further mods later..

[Bulldog20]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
Ok.. than you have no need for an accumulator.. Accumulator just stops liquid slugging.. I'd just have access ports put on the system using standard flare T fittings and shrader valves.. than charge with 55-65g of 134a.. or a mix of 134a and propane.. or 134a and quickboost.. etc.. You can always do further mods later..

Didn't you mean schrader valves
http://www.schrader-valves.co.uk/

:D

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Yea.. schrader..

[asetek Inc.]

-

[asetek Inc.]

It has been brought to our attention that there is a thread in here, where there should be a direct paste of a private message we sent to a user. we've learned from this, and will no longer tip users this way as it seems as its coming back to asetek in a negative way - and all we tried to was being informative and supportive.

However both the user know and we know that the information was taken out of a context that wasn't informed in here. In order to straighten things out here is the correct context:

1. It was asked if there were some steps one could do to make the current VapoChill systems perform better, as it only went to –17°C idle.

2. What we did was offer a solution, where one would get more from an old classic VapoChill - this is purely optimisation of charge, capillary tube, suction accumulator etc.

3. We told that this wasn't something for the average Joe but the user insisted to let an A/C technician do it.

4. The -25°C is idle temperature of the cooling system measured on the evaporator (where else should we measure the temperature - we can't say anything about peoples CPU, speed and or core voltage - we can only comment on the things we do at our site).

5. The system will be able to remove 130W of heat at -5°C at the evaporator (where else should we measure the temperature - we can't say anything about peoples CPU, speed and or core voltage - we can only comment on the things we do at our site).

6. This is a big improvement over the original design.

7. It's amusing to see people comment a lot and very negative about our cooling solutions, when they at the same time state they never saw one, tested one or even worked with cooling systems like a VapoChill. Without insulting anyone, we do think we know the best about our cooling systems. If people want a bigger compressor – well go and buy one...

We don’t get people keep wasting time on hammering the VapoChill compressor – why don’t they just spend their time on buying what they want? Imagine if we were hammering water cooling etc. We never tried to hide what is inside the VapoChill. Maybe this is the reason why we have been the most successful company in the sub zero cooling market.

Regarding suction accumulators we can only say that it works for us, and all our new systems have one and it surely has a significant purpose. If you don't feel like using one - well don't! We don't want to enter a technical discussion about this, and expecially not over a component costing 50 cents :)

It's remarkable to see how one user can predict whether adding a suction accumulator will work or not, when he actually never tried it on a VapoChill system. If someone is in doubt - go buy a VapoChill check out the performance, and if it's different from what we say, they will get a full refund. Read the latest review from Overclockers.com and you will see that our performance is like we say it is.

8. When you use "turbo additive" etc. you will most likely ruin your compressor. Several people within asetek have worked for Danfoss Compressors in Germany (the company who actually manufactures the compressors) and there is a reason why all warranties will void if you use things like this. Maybe it will go years, maybe not... No doubt it will work, but the compressor/oil is not designed for it.

We will not answer this thread again, as we just wanted to clear some issues. Thank you for listening and your interest in the VapoChill(R),


Best regards
___________________
asetek Inc.
Saltumvej 27
9700 Broenderslev, Denmark
Phone: +45 9645 0047 (GMT +01:00)
Fax: +45 9645 0048
Web: www.asetek.com - www.vapochill.com

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Dude.. asetek man.. your grammar is horrible.. Now.. I have to school you..


2. What we did was offer a solution, where one would get more from an old classic VapoChill - this is purely optimisation of charge, capillary tube, suction accumulator etc.

Why the F' didn't you do this to your system while you were charging.. oh what? 500.00 USD for it? You should of did these things before the system came out of the factory.

#7. I am not some uneducated hick Mr. Asetek god.. I build phase change systems all the time for people.. It's funny how everytime I build.. I build them what they want.. my average joe blow machine is 450.00 and offers -20C at 150w heatload.. Your measly system can only handle 130w heatload.

You know exactly why your systems perform the way they do.. Prometeia is kicking your asses like your a bunch of dirty mexicans at a science fair!

An AC Technician here would install the accumulator bulb that you talk of.. he would charge Mike.Elmes a hella more than it's worth.. The fact is.. if you didn't pack your systems with 12v compressors.. people wouldn't have to do "mods" to make them perform like a phase change system should. Quick-Boost is made to work R-134a systems.. so I see no reason why it wouldn't work in the vapochill.. I'm curious about the oil you are using in it.. But I know you won't respond to this.. Btw, Have fun threatening me all you want about my signature.. but I am not changing it any further.

You want to get into a technical debate with me? Bring it on!

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Oh.. if someone has a vapochill they don't want anymore.. send it to me.. I'll take out the 12vdc compressor and put in a 1/3HP R-134a compressor and show you just how good the vapochill works then!

They use 12vdc compressors in refrigerators for homes that run on solar-power and RV's.. THe fact is.. most of those refrigerators have 2 or even 3 compressors to run correctly.. and those compressors often times die quickly.. with in a few years.. Maybe vapochill would of taken note of this and went with a standard VAC compressor? Or maybe they just wanted their systems to be so universal.. so they left it at DC so it could plug into everyones power supply no matter what part of the world you are in..?

[Hallowed]

Hey punisher. You probably don't know me but I think you're the one helping a friend of mine "MicronKLR". :)
We're building the same chiller and now I have an opportunity to thank you for your help :toast:

About the VapoChill:
I don't know what all the commotion is about. An accumulator isn't necessary when you have a capable 1/4 POE compressor. I will be using a Tecumseh 1000BTU R404a unit. R134a pales to the efficiency of R12 or R404a. Heck, Propane would outdo R134a and for much less money.

The little Danfoss units in the Prommie and VapoChill are woefully overburdened. And their evaporator units (hollowed out copper "sponge" like design) aren't that efficient.

Anyways, the design I am going on was built by a guy called "Bowman" and his temps put the waterchiller / pre-made direct die units to shame. And best of all, takes $300 or less to make yourself :)

Thats all I have to add.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

I agree hallowed.

Your welcome for the help and at any time if you need anything just IM me on AIM.

Btw, now.. an accumulator just collects liquid freon that hasn't been boiled off in the evaporator because of a low heatload on the evaporator or an over-charge of freon in the system. The accumulator just stops liquid slugging.. nothing more.. it doesn't ADD performence to the system UNLESS you have a varying heatload such as in computer application. Even then it doesn't ADD performence.. just stops liquid slugging and lets you charge the system to handle the maximum possible heatload of the cpu. So when you go in idle.. you are putting out much less of a heatload and all of the freon will not get boiled off in the evaporator.. The accumulator just lets the still liquid freon boil off so it gets taken into the compressor as a gas not a liquid.

So the only thing that vapochill has done to make their system "better" is to put an accumulator on the system so they can have the proper freon charge for a full load system.. which is what I've been spouting about for a while.. why these companies charge so much money and they can't even include a 20 dollar part that would truly make their systems better. Now.. Vapochill is using a very cheap version of an accumulator.. they are just using a copper spun accumulator bulb like you will find in window air conditioning systems. They work.. and for the small amount of freon they are charging with.. they do the job.

A 150w heatload is 530BTU/H .. some where in that area (520BTU/H to 575BTU/H) .. Almost ANY decent compressor can handle that.. A standard house hold full size refrigerator/freezer combo compressor can displace some where between 1,500 and 2,300BTU. Hell.. If you want a system that's compact.. just get a fricken compressor that is made for a chest freezer.. those are pretty small and will move plenty enough BTU for your application. I mean.. 200w is only something like 675BTU/H! That is quite a lot of heat.. Your overclocked XP + your video card and NB would equal something like 210w! It doesn't take a 120931807249817HP compressor to sufficiently SUB-ZERO (0F) cool your components!

[ZubZero]

Haha |PuNiSh3R| you F.... You think you are so smart - with all your home brewed solutions.

I can tell you that I went to my local A/C store and asked them to do the modifications mike.elmes suggested and guess what - they worked!

My P42400@3150 is idling at -2'C core temperature and 15'C under full load. This is about 10'C lower than before the mod. And the A/C tech. loaded the evaporator with 130W, and it was able to remove it! Not as good as my new VapoChill PE that removes 160W of heat - but pretty close. So who is right you or asetek? Maybe next time, you should check up on things before misleading people!

Why don't you show us some of 'cheap' systems you are bragging about all time - I bet they look like garbage - I wouldn't have if I got it for free!

For the rest of you - I don't have a digital camera, but if you need some advice on upgrading your OLD VapoChill just let me know as I was there when the A/C tech. did all the modifications.

It's damn easy to flame serious companies - heck if you are so good as you say |PuNiSh3R| why don't you have world-wide resellers, reviews at respected sites etc? In my eyes you are a f....... looser!
EDITED BY HARDASS
Name calling is flaming, which is not allowed.

[Hallowed]

Zub, lets have a little more tact, k?

If you want to check on Punishers work, go to www.phase-change.com or the like. And yes, his and many other systems make Vapochills look like toys. Overpriced ones...

[aenigma]

Originally posted by ZubZero
Haha |PuNiSh3R| you _ _ _ _ F.... You think you are so smart - with all your home brewed solutions.

I can tell you that I went to my local A/C store and asked them to do the modifications mike.elmes suggested and guess what - they worked!

My P42400@3150 is idling at -2'C core temperature and 15'C under full load. This is about 10'C lower than before the mod. And the A/C tech. loaded the evaporator with 130W, and it was able to remove it! Not as good as my new VapoChill PE that removes 160W of heat - but pretty close. So who is right you or asetek? Maybe next time, you should check up on things before misleading people!

Why don't you show us some of 'cheap' systems you are bragging about all time - I bet they look like garbage - I wouldn't have if I got it for free!

For the rest of you - I don't have a digital camera, but if you need some advice on upgrading your OLD VapoChill just let me know as I was there when the A/C tech. did all the modifications.

It's damn easy to flame serious companies - heck if you are so good as you say |PuNiSh3R| why don't you have world-wide resellers, reviews at respected sites etc? In my eyes you are a f....... looser!

Ok I have sat back and listened to all this garbage and kept my mouth shut for too long.Punisher is an _ _ _, every knows this.:)

But he is right and wrong.Right about DIY systems working better than vapochill, but everybody knows this.He obvously knows more about refrigeration than you since he can build his own systems, so I wouldnt be calling him dumb unless you can back up that statement.
Now just think man, just because someone knows how to make something, doesnt mean he has to go into business selling it.

He was wrong about the capillary/accumulator.The reason that helps is because you are subcooling the liquid in the capillary.

Does flaming him make you better than him?No I don't think it does.

Hallowed:
He doesnt have any work logs or anything of the like at phase-change.com

EDITED BY HARDASS
You too, Name calling is flaming, not allowed.

[ZubZero]

Hmm a litte tact... is it different what people can write in here, or didn't you see |PuNiSh3R| language in here?

Of course if you want to have a system looking like §§§§ - these are the way to go. I don't see any higher speeds than people get with pre fab. units though?!?

Huh over priced toys - the new vapo costs 460USD local retail, what do you think these amateur systems would costs, if they were to be shipped half the way round the world, through distributors and resellers, and the parties that all need to make a profit?

Either you can't see or you will not se it.... I have 100% respect for people who want to do anything by themselves and see it as a hobby - but please spare us for the bull... Have you ever seen asetek, Kryotech, Chip-Com or any of their employees hammer the amateur systems? No of course you haven't but why is it then, that a stupid retard in here tries to be a smart ass and convince people. that he is the God himself....

I'm not trying to flame any one - I was just annoyed by |PuNiSh3R| trying to flame respected companies. Why I thought he should taste his own medicine :) Is the pre fab companies then dumb compared to |PuNiSh3R| od did they just choose another way?

It's easy to back up my statement - read all of his posts and flames against VapoChill, and now you can see he is wrong? Isn't that dumb - in my eyes it is. Who said I didn't know anything about this? I don't have the vaccum tools etc. why I use the loca A/C but yes I know.... I just didn't yell about me being smarter than established companies in here BEFORE testing what they suggested...

[aenigma]

Originally posted by ZubZero
Hmm a litte tact... is it different what people can write in here, or didn't you see |PuNiSh3R| language in here?

Of course if you want to have a system looking like §§§§ - these are the way to go. I don't see any higher speeds than people get with pre fab. units though?!?

Huh over priced toys - the new vapo costs 460USD local retail, what do you think these amateur systems would costs, if they were to be shipped half the way round the world, through distributors and resellers, and the parties that all need to make a profit?

Either you can't see or you will not se it.... I have 100% respect for people who want to do anything by themselves and see it as a hobby - but please spare us for the bull... Have you ever seen asetek, Kryotech, Chip-Com or any of their employees hammer the amateur systems? No of course you haven't but why is it then, that a stupid retard in here tries to be a smart ass and convince people. that he is the God himself....

I'm not trying to flame any one - I was just annoyed by |PuNiSh3R| trying to flame respected companies. Why I thought he should taste his own medicine :) Is the pre fab companies then dumb compared to |PuNiSh3R| od did they just choose another way?

It's easy to back up my statement - read all of his posts and flames against VapoChill, and now you can see he is wrong? Isn't that dumb - in my eyes it is. Who said I didn't know anything about this? I don't have the vaccum tools etc. why I use the loca A/C but yes I know.... I just didn't yell about me being smarter than established companies in here BEFORE testing what they suggested...

Uhhh, I already said you can make a DIY system look good.Pay attention :)

These so called "amateur" systems you speak of usually cost pennies to build.When you first get into it on the other hand, it gets steep.
But who said anything about selling them?If I built one for someone, I would charge them for copper pipe and misc things like that.But I would only sell it to someone I know, or just give it to them.

If vapochill wants to charge 460 dollars for their system, then they should get with the times and make their systems right.They are the amateurs.

I am always annoyed with what punisher says, but I usually try not to post :)
I understand why you are pissed at him, since he is an _ _ _.But vapochill is lacking in just about everything.

The reason asetek doesnt bash DIY is because they dont want to tarnish their reputation ;)
Plus what could they bash besides looks?And looks are pretty unimportant IMO.Because most DIY systems perform much better than vapochill, although I cant comment on punishers system :rolleyes:

[JCviggen]

Originally posted by ZubZero

My P42400@3150 is idling at -2'C core temperature and 15'C under full load. This is about 10'C lower than before the mod. And the A/C tech. loaded the evaporator with 130W, and it was able to remove it! Not as good as my new VapoChill PE that removes 160W of heat - but pretty close.

It would have been pretty sad if it was unable to remove 130W ... a highly overclocked/volted P4 can put out that much.
15C full load eh... pretty sad how something this expensive is thÃ:banana:t far above zero but hey thats just my opinion.

[aenigma]

Originally posted by JCviggen
It would have been pretty sad if it was unable to remove 130W ... a highly overclocked/volted P4 can put out that much.
15C full load eh... pretty sad how something this expensive is thÃ:banana:t far above zero but hey thats just my opinion.

Exactly, thats why I say they need to get with the times :)
But they have so many people paying out the nose for the current systems because they dont know any better.Easy way to make a killing, just throw together a cheap refrigeration system, make it look pretty(if you consider that pretty) and your made.

[JCviggen]

yea I guess so.... they're not on the cutting edge of technology thats for sure.

Another thing, this chill control of the new Vapo's... WTF is up with parallell ports and a bootable floppy??? are we in the dark ages again? We do have other operating systems and something called USB...
Since the best overclocking Intel boards in the world (abit IT7 MAX boards) dont have any parallell ports anymore you're pretty stuck. Really it always seems like such a minimal effort from those guys ...

[Hardass]

Just so everyone posting in this thread understands! If you come right out and call someone a name it is flaming. We here at xtreme have been giving alot of room for error when it comes to this, the folks in this thread are pushing it. No more name calling!

[DDTUNG]

Originally posted by Hardass
Just so everyone posting in this thread understands! If you come right out and call someone a name it is flaming. We here at xtreme have been giving alot of room for error when it comes to this, the folks in this thread are pushing it. No more name calling!

I suggest everyone take this advice.

DDTUNG:cool:

[ZubZero]

Yeah JC I know you from other foras -VapoChill enemy #1 - just to correct you it's the serial and not the parallel port. Doesn't change the situation though, except from using an USB converter. What about the other cooling solutions on the market, they don't even have a ChillControl - well they have a standard temperature controller like the one asetek used three years ago.... I think asetek has been very innovative with this, and Prometeia is lacking big time in the controlling of the system.

Did you read why they chose to make a bootable floppy - no I didn't think so. It's always easier to flame someone before checking the facts.

Agree or not, but they chose to make a (DOS) bootable floppy, as it's 100% independent of OS. Also lot's of folks don't like to have unknown software installed, which you don't have to, as the ChillControl has "its own OS". The major reason though is that when you adjust something in the ChillControl you need a RESET -RESET within your OS isn't the most clever thing to do :)

I think it's nice and smooth, and remember when finding the settings you like the most, you don't have to change it. I'm sure if the Prometeia had this, you would praise it big time. You don't seem to objective in your postings regarding VC around the net.

And yes 130W isn't too much, but be aware that this unit is more than two years old and optimized for the CPU's back then. My current VC can remove 160W of heat just like the Prom. BTW it's nice to have a cooling system not consuming the same amount of power as it's removing :) Provided you have a powerful CPU the Prom. will consume a lot of current and $$$

So asetek are the amateurs because they have chosen not to implement a bigger compressor? Heh that's strange, as you make it sound as adding a more powerful compressor is rocket science -I guess they could have added one if they wanted to - or don't you think so? I agree with you that I would like to see asetek implement a bigger sompressor, but I guess they have their reasons.... Only obstacle I see is condense - but then again hey my Prometeia system produces water big time - I saw reviewers and other users complain about this as well.

And as written before in this thread, if you don't like it don't buy it..

After my OLD VapoChill I went for the Prometeia hype like many others, but not long after, I ordered the VapoChill SE, which is the one I use. I know many don't care about looks but I do, and serial connector or not, the new ChillControl is really cool. My VapoChill is almost silent besides the Prometeia.

Sure my Prometeia system cools more, but I can't reach higher speeds with it. With P4 CPU's its about the same, and with my AMD XP2400+ the Prometeia goes a few MHz faster, but then it's not stable. Just as a food note - when stressing the Prom. for many hours. the compressor get more than 70'C and the same goes for the CPU-kit - doesn't seem to well laid out...

I'va had a Kryotech as well - (never had that Maxxxpert §§§§ though) this means I almost got all vapor pahse systems available, which makes be able to compare them and back my statements up with facts. I read JC hammering the new VC even before it was on the market... very biased and amateur like. In my eyes the VapoChill is the clear winner for me (it's also cheaper) but of course I respect that other people have a different opinion than me :)

[Hardass]

Prometeia system produces water big time!
Could you explain this alittle more. Was it the latest units coming out,? How much water and where, What did you do to fix this?

[Hardass]

ZubZero, I am sorry I forgot the most important post here. Welcome to Xtreme Forums!:)

[ZubZero]

Thanks - it's great that someone wishes you welcome hehe. I'm not totally new to these forums - just never registrated, as I usually don't write in forums. I just thought this thread was too crazy to ignore. Read a lot of this on the [H] as well, and it's amazing why people are trying to start a war between VapocHill /Prometeia it's just like Intel/AMD. I think a way to move asetek would be, if a respected site like this made a collection of users, who stated that they wanted asetek to have a bigger compressor etc. hammering anyone doesn't help. why haven't Xtreme done an interview with their CTO or CEO to get a picture of why they are doing as they are? I think that could be an idea?

I don't know if it's the latest version - got it a couple of months ago - so I guess so. Well there is condense on the out side of the CPU-kit near to the motherboard (similar to what overclockers.com experienced) and also when you remove the CPU there is water in the Socket. My P4 went green on the pins after a few weeks. I hate the grease in socket as VapoChill uses, but it works!

Hmm what I did to try to fix it... Well I remounted it several times, making sure there were no gaps etc. but same result. Their construction is very similar to the Kryotech units, and they never really solved the condense issue as well.

I don't care too much any longer, as I'm using the Vapo.

[aenigma]

Originally posted by ZubZero
So asetek are the amateurs because they have chosen not to implement a bigger compressor? Heh that's strange, as you make it sound as adding a more powerful compressor is rocket science -I guess they could have added one if they wanted to - or don't you think so? I agree with you that I would like to see asetek implement a bigger sompressor, but I guess they have their reasons.... Only obstacle I see is condense - but then again hey my Prometeia system produces water big time - I saw reviewers and other users complain about this as well.

Yes they are amateurs because they cant seem to use a real compressor.I did not act like replacing the compressor is rocket science.An average refrigerator compressor would work perfectly.
Sure they dont have to replace it, they have enough close minded people buying from them.Why change a selling design, unless of course you want to actually serve your customer.But we are talking about Asetek here, not someone that cares.

I have my opinion, so I figure I might as well express it.Even if some pro vapochill people don't like it.It is the truth, and the truth sometimes hurts. ;)

I don't see condensation as an obstacle at all.If they cant insulate, then they ARE amateurs.

Also I don't remember saying anything about adding a new compressor, punisher was saying that.It needs more than just a new compressor....

But if you want to go with a pre-made solution that requires no effort, then go for it.I am not here to stop you, it seems to work for you.

Oh by the way, how much colder does your prometeia actually get?I am not talking about your evaporator temp, but actual cpu temp.

[ZubZero]

I'm not pro one or the other. Just like you I just have my own opinion and first hand experiences. I do think it's a mistake to call them amateurs because they don't use the compressor you prefer - but all right - if that's your opinion fine with me - it doesn't hurt :) I've bought all systems available, and without starting a war, I find the VapoChill superior in a lot of aspects.

I don't know if condense is a problem to asetek, but as all others are struggling with condense at these temps it might be the same to asetek (I was assuming). So then you mean Prometeia is amateurs as well as they DO have condense problems? Just look in these forums, and you will see.

How do you know asetek doesn't care - do you have any facts to back that up? See this is why I usually do not post in foras, as it's so easy to throw out statements like this without anything to back it up...

Idle my current VapoChill do -30 / -5 and full load -20 / +12

Idle the Prom was doing -40 / -11 (after hours of load it was merely -32 / 0 because of the huge heat build up in the compressor) and full load -30 / -1

So not too big differences if you ask me, and as I wrote, I couldn't see any remarkable speed diffrences either. I have seen some users complain about dead Northwoods in systems where the core temperatures were below +5'C (same temperature as Intel set as their lower limit) have you heard of something similar?

[TheDude]

Welcome SubZero:D

You stated " I think a way to move asetek would be, if a respected site like this made a collection of users, who stated that they wanted asetek to have a bigger compressor etc. hammering anyone doesn't help."
I agree completely, but this has been done many times by myself and many others and you can see this on the Vapochill Forum. It seems to me that they only decided to improve their system when they finally got some mainstream competition from Prometeia. That makes good business sense, and I can't say I blame them for it, but I think it has a lot of people upset that it wasn't done when they asked for it.
I loved my old Vapochill, but just ordered a Prommy to see how it does. I really think there is room enough in the world and in this forum to have owners of both systems post here and still maintain respect for each other.
As far as DIY systems, there are some out there that outperform both I'm sure, but as a buyer, how do you determine which ones are good and a good value? If you had this much knowhow, you would probably be building your own.
And to Punisher..you know your stuff, I don't deny that, you just seem to have a gift for wording things so to rub people the wrong way. On purpose or not , I do not know.
And finally as stated several times above...Express your opinions here and share your knowledge....but no name calling or flaming, that is one of the forums basic and most important rules and will not be overlooked.

[ZubZero]

Thanks dude ;)

Yeah I've read the VapoChill forum as well (pretty good) and I agree that there have been some postings. I also read that asetek worked on the PE for a long time - even before Chip-Con ever existed. As they developed new case, new ChillControl, new cooling unit etc. it might be the truth - as you know how long time development takes (just look at the Hammer :) ).

I would have liked the VapoChill PE to hit the market before as well, but I have to say that I agree with asetek's statements in the [H] forum - to me it doesn't make sense to have a huge compressor etc. if you don't gain more than I experienced.

I actually think its amazing how asetek can sell their units that cheap. The 12V compressors are extremely expensive. My A/C Tech. told me that they are usually used in boats, and they cost 3 times as much as a 115/230V compressor.

I just don't get why people always are thinking bad of companies like this. Remember asetek was the first company ever to bring vapor phase to the masses, why should they sacrifice their good will - I assume they want to keep up their business, but hemmering them through a forum don't help. You know and I know that if ahem... "people" like Punisher writes in their forum "give us a bigger compressor or die" it will not help :)

However I'm not sure that moving a company through its forum is the right way. Forum people are usually tech. people, who don't do any business decisions. I actually heard somewhere, that asetek had prototype units running as low as -60'C(!) I think I heard it from a Danfoss sales rep. on the CeBIT show a couple of years ago.

Until a serious webmaster or similar actually gets an interview with a mangement member from asetek, I will give them the benefit of the doubt....

[JCviggen]

Originally posted by ZubZero
I read JC hammering the new VC even before it was on the market... very biased and amateur like. In my eyes the VapoChill is the clear winner for me (it's also cheaper) but of course I respect that other people have a different opinion than me :)


Now you see, I dont think I ever "hammered" it. Nor am I biased.

But you simply cannot directly compare the Vapochill with the Prometeia. As I have found out in the last few days, you really cant compare the 2 units.

Let me tell you, if you want the coldest and fastest, the prometeia is a very very, VERY clear winner. For extreme overclockers, this is all that matters. I will be the first to say the Prometeia has a LOT of drawbacks and needs a LOT of work to get to the same level of built quality and professionalism as the Vapochill. But performance wise there's a HUGE gap between them.

As I am typing now, my rig is in a Vapochill PE until tomorrow. I am at the moment collecting as much data, temperatures and overclocking results as I can so I can write something about it later.

You can consider this a personal attack, ZubZero, but if you cant get a higher overclock with a prometeia than with a Vapochill then maybe overclocking isnt the thing for you. I am hitting nearly +20°C core temp under load with a serious overclock in this PE. That are very very respectable temps which put a watercooling to shame, but they do not challenge the Prometeia in any real way. At idle the evaporator temp can reach -30, but stressed it falls back to around -14C. But again, screenshots, pics and results will follow some time later. I'm not going to go into it right now.


I am not VC's #1 enemy by a long long way dude. I would say ppl who so ... emotionally... defend it are a bigger negative influence than others.

I will say it and mean it : the Vapochill is a great cooling device. Its effective, its professional, its put together very very solidly. As long as you take it for what is is, its a great piece of technology. The more average overclockers who want to do some LAN's and have a cool case and good overclocks need look no further. But the moment anyone tries to say it can compete with the Prometeia performance wise I feel I need to point out that you shouldnt compare them. The vapochill simply cannot keep up and its not supposed to be doing that imho. There are many sacrifices connected to the (current) Prometeia units, only extreme overclockers should apply. For everyone else the vapochill would be way better. Does this explanation seem fair to you?

I have no dount Asetek could make a much more powerful Vapochill, at this point they dont seem to see a market in it, or they're just too stubborn for it. I have never questioned Asetek's technical know-how or capabilities. But the fact is they do not produce anything which cools like the prometeia does and they dont think they need to either. So whats the fuss about?
I am pretty damn sure that I have never for one moment said the Prometeia is a better overall solution, because it is not. Its extreme, and it offers cooling performance previously only seen in some mad home built stuff. But since not everybody is a fridge tech, its a very good thing that they came to the market with it. I see no reason for Vapochill owners (or Asetek) to feel themselves attached in any way. I used to have a Vapochill and i'm trying one now, doesnt that give a slight clue that I dont care what BRAND something is as long as its the fastest/coldest?

About the chillcontrol : I would have liked it if they had left some more rudimentary way to change the settings on it without having to work with that proggy. but OK. At least it looks nifty :)

peace

Oh and welcome to the forums :)

[ZubZero]

Thanks :)

Well I don't want to enter such a discussion. From what I read in various places, I find you biased - but that's just my opinion. You write a lot of bad things about the VapoChill, but all the draw backs about the Prometia you mentioned above, isn't really mentioned anywhere else?

I don't consider it personal attack, and neither should you do, but I personally tested a lot of CPU's and every time i got them to run faster in the Prometeia they were not stable at all, why they werent really faster in the end...

Maybe it's my current CPU's holding me back who knows - the only right way to find out, would be to test maybe 100 CPU's and collect the results. I never said that the Prometeia was bad or anything, but I couldn't notice any difference, and with all the draw backs you mention I just don't see the point in using it. I'm aware that you will be able to find CPU's that will go further with the Prom. - and maybe that's the CPU's you have - peace with that....

Well if overclocking is for me or not is up to me to decide right? I don't doubt your results - so please don't doubt mine! I'm pretty confident that you couldn't do any better with the hardware I have. I haven't seen your results, and I guess you haven't seen mine as none of them are published, so how can you even pretend that you are better than me in overclocking?

Of course I agree with you, that cooling performance of the Prom is better. It's the law of nature, that it cools more with a huge compressor compared to a small. I just don't see the benefit from it. Maybe you do - good for you :) AND as you write I have all the different systems as well, so I don't give a f... either as long as I'm happy with it. I think the Kryotech unit however is just as powerful as the Prom.

[JCviggen]

I'm not saying i'm better than you in overclocking m8 ... ;)

But my results are there and I dont see anything from you so... :)

I am sure we would both get the same clocks on the same stuff. I think thats pretty logical. Then there's the whole software tweaking crap.
I am sure though I could score much higher in everything with a Prometeia compared to a Vapo lol. at least 100 MHz extra on the CPU.


You write a lot of bad things about the VapoChill, but all the draw backs about the Prometia you mentioned above, isn't really mentioned anywhere else?

Would you be a sport and give me some links or quotes on that?
I know I'm not always that tactful in how i say things, but I dont think I ever said anything at all untrue about the Vapochill.

Things I dont like about the prometeia : looks , weight (that thing is impossible to handle) , power consumption is quite high with that bigger compressor, also the mounting system on the CPU can often give poor contact and needs some improvisation. I have broken 2 units in the same way although I was careful with the second one : if you use it intensively mounting CPU's the whole time the hose of the Prom is a bit weak. had 2 broken hoses, the first one my fault by bending it in the wrong place, the second died from fatigue. ThÃ:banana:t, and the fact that I could get some condensation on the hose on a warm humid day.
I think thats not a short list. All of these things I have mentioned at some points just as well as I have critisized the vapochill on some points.

Just out of curiosity , here's a question for you , say you would want to be in the top 3 of 3Dmark/PCmark , or any other OC ranking for that matter. You could choose your weapon between the Vapochill and Prometeia. Which would you choose? ONLY for the task of the competition , nothing more. You dont have to like either unit ;)

[ZubZero]

I am sure though I could score much higher in everything with a Prometeia compared to a Vapo lol. at least 100 MHz extra on the CPU.

>Of course I believe that's your experience - but not mine :)

Would you be a sport and give me some links or quotes on that?
I know I'm not always that tactful in how i say things, but I dont think I ever said anything at all untrue about the Vapochill.

>Sure go to the [H] and read the posts there - it pretty much speaks for itself, and I'm not the only one saying this :) Wasn't also you that commented on asetek in here regarding some funding issue? Do you have any insight in this issue? Eventhough you maybe heard something from Chip-Con? You haven't heard aseteks take on this? At least asetek was professional enough not to post "official" statements in an Internet forum regarding an issue like this. I think it's great companies do write in foras, but not about their wars against competitors....

Things I dont like about the prometeia : looks , weight (that thing is impossible to handle) , power consumption is quite high with that bigger compressor, also the mounting system on the CPU can often give poor contact and needs some improvisation. I have broken 2 units in the same way although I was careful with the second one : if you use it intensively mounting CPU's the whole time the hose of the Prom is a bit weak. had 2 broken hoses, the first one my fault by bending it in the wrong place, the second died from fatigue. ThÃ:banana:t, and the fact that I could get some condensation on the hose on a warm humid day.
I think thats not a short list.

>I agree - In my opinion a unit like this shouldn't have been on the market. Imagine all the trouble users far away from Denmark will have with this...

All of these things I have mentioned at some points just as well as I have critisized the vapochill on some points.

>I never saw you mentioned things like this about the Prom before. I have no problems (of course) with you commenting on the Vapo - I just don't think that some of your (previous) comments was objective and fair like the way you are writing now...

Just out of curiosity , here's a question for you , say you would want to be in the top 3 of 3Dmark/PCmark , or any other OC ranking for that matter. You could choose your weapon between the Vapochill and Prometeia. Which would you choose? ONLY for the task of the competition , nothing more. You dont have to like either unit ;)

>Eheh good question well with my experience it doesn't matter. With yours I guess you would have a 100MHz advantage with the Prom. But of course if I had the same experience like you - I would stick to the Prom. But if I was the type of dude going for records, I would just build a 10$ LN2 system ;) Now these temperatures rocks and makes a difference!

I've a question for you as well - did you try to measure your temps on the Prometeia after 48h of 100% load with closed case etc. If not you should try it. Everything is heated up in a manner where temperatures were very close to the Vapo....

But OK let's end this story as friends - You are an extreme guy going for the coolest, I'm going for the best product and the highest (stable speeds). You found what you searched for (when it works) and so did I ;)

Hmm I was just wondering - what if one removed the compressor from the Vapo and replaced it with a larger. There should be room enough to do it - then you would have the dream system...

[JCviggen]

sounds good :)


I have tried about... hmm... between 15 and 20 CPU's in this prometeia and they all responded equally well.


I agree - In my opinion a unit like this shouldn't have been on the market.

I disagree there, since I cant build a custom phase changer myself, chip-con does it. And its still pretty user friendly. In fact its a lot faster to set up than a Vapochill.

oh and about running 24/7 under full load .... I've done foldin@home for 2 weeks straight on my rig .... after 15 min temps stabilize and dont go up or down anymore. This is with the room temp staying equal. I have noticed if I close my door the system slowly heats up my room lol

so at the end of the day

Prom = extreme
Vapochill = the sensible choice for ppl who arent bothered about 50 MHz more or less and with maximum practicality

since this is XtremeSystems, the choice is obvious :D

I'm gonna try and have this thread closed here, I think nothing truly meaningful can be added to this thread...

BTW some time later when I gather all results I am going to make a new thread at [H] to compare the 2 temp wise. Asetek dont want me reviewing anything so i'll make sure to do it anyway, just not with their unit. Everybody knows what I choose since my goals are clear, but I intend nothing more than to add some actual numbers to the whole thing. I'll make sure to mention both cases' flaws dont worry. i'll even try to be tactful :)

[ZubZero]

Heh you can't really blame asetek if they read what you wrote in various places :) - I think I would have reacted the same way. Maybe you should show them this thread?

But again if you say in advance what you winning system will be, it doesn't make sense to review it?

[JCviggen]

Originally posted by ZubZero


But again if you say in advance what you winning system will be, it doesn't make sense to review it?


Ho ho there ;)

I stated earlier that its not really possible to claim a winner... they're too different. The prometeia gets a lot colder thats all I ever said and thats what the compressor specs are shouting in all languages too. I knew before even touching the unit that for my own purpases I would need the prom and not the vapo.
But these little things like finding small unpracticalities and flaws cant be done by looking at specs.
I have very few demands. Power is all I need. practicality, reliability and looks dont matter to me at all. I never hide that fact and i'm even kind enough to mention that by other standards the VC can be better

[ZubZero]

BTW did you read this? (http://www.overclockers.com/articles643/index05.asp)

[JCviggen]

Originally posted by ZubZero
BTW did you read this? (http://www.overclockers.com/articles643/index05.asp)

I did now.... nothing interesting?

All they did was show numbers on a chip with low heat output which seems to correspond with the temperatures I am getting.

I dont really see why they bother to measure the temperature of the P4 heatspreader, since it is only in the middle that the core is. Obviously the sides are going to be cold then... stating the obvious there ;)

which part did you find particulary interesting?

[|PuNiSh3R|]

I don't have time to read all this and get caught up.. but I read zubzero's post.. and then aenigma.. and aenigma brought to my attention about the cap tube.. I went back then and re-read the "tip" and noticed the wrapping of the cap tube around the accumulator.. which.. I was stupid.. and just in a dumb mood.. so I totally over-looked it and went on a rage.. lol.. THe whole wrapping of the cap tube around the accumulator stops flash gas and also changes any vapor form freon that the condenser hasn't changed to liquid into liquid before it hits the evaporator. d'oh!

So that is why you are getting a performence boost.. it's no big secret though.. and you don't NEED that accumulator to do it.. A better condenser would do it.. or just running the cap tube through the suction line.. but if you have to take the system to a tech.. the accumulator idea is the easiest.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Ok, I just skimmed over some of these posts.. I will side with prometeia on this 100%.. I'd rather see my next door neighbor and my worst enemy buy a prometeia over a vapochill.. I mean.. I wouldn't WISH a vapochill on my worst enemy.. Everyone knows how much I hate pre-fab garbage.. but prometeia is really the champ in the pre-fab kingdom.

Zubzero.. if you think my work is such garbage.. wait a couple of days.. and see the current system I am building.. tell me it's garbage then.. I'll have pics as soon as possible..

Btw, aenigma, I just bought that torch, JTH7 or whatever.. the one u got.. wow.. it's really awesome.. Brazing blocks is much easier now.. I use my regular hand torch and propane to heat the block up then I get the new torch out and put mapp on it.. heh.. I just gotta sell this F'in oxy/mapp torch now..

Oh.. And I am an ass.. just to clear the record.

[Bulldog20]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
I don't have time to read all this and get caught up.. but I read zubzero's post.. and then aenigma.. and aenigma brought to my attention about the cap tube.. I went back then and re-read the "tip" and noticed the wrapping of the cap tube around the accumulator.. which.. I was stupid.. and just in a dumb mood.. so I totally over-looked it and went on a rage.. lol.. THe whole wrapping of the cap tube around the accumulator stops flash gas and also changes any vapor form freon that the condenser hasn't changed to liquid into liquid before it hits the evaporator. d'oh!

So that is why you are getting a performence boost.. it's no big secret though.. and you don't NEED that accumulator to do it.. A better condenser would do it.. or just running the cap tube through the suction line.. but if you have to take the system to a tech.. the accumulator idea is the easiest.

The accumulator will not increase performance, but will allow increased performance. The performance increase comes from the having a different Vacuum pressure in the suction line. The length of the capillary hose and the coolant charge are the performance increasing factors :D

Cheers :D

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Just to let you know.. there shouldn't be any "vacuum" pressure in the suction line.. The system is under-charged if there is.. We are talking about a weak 12vdc compressor here..

Capillary hose? that's capillary tube.. and no.. the length of the capillary tube and freon charge are not the performence increasing factors.. No one is touching the length of the cap tube in this system.. they are simply wrapping it around the accumulator.. using the extra cold left no the suction line to cool the freon (gas or liquid) in the cap tube.. to change any gas that is in the cap tube to liquid.. and to cool the liquid in the cap tube to below ambient.. as well as stop flash gas.. which is refrigerant boiling off in the cap tube before it hits the evaporator where it should be boiling off.

You don't need an accumulator though.. You can just wrap the cap tube around the suction line.. i thought that vapochill already did this.. I mean.. Another problem I am seeing here is that the cap tube HAS to go up to the CPU block.. which is what.. like 2 feet above the top of the vapochill case itself.. THe cap tube has to go up to that block.. so I don't see how there is extra cap tube to be wrapping around an accumulator.. there should only be 2 n a half feet to 3feet max of cap tube in this system anyway! Should be just enough to take the cap tube from the condenser discharge line to the evap block.. If vapochill gave a rats ass they would of ran the cap tube through the suction line!

Btw, does vapochill use a flexible rubber to the evap block.. or a copper line?

[TheDude]

|PuNiSh3R|

Really looking forward to pics of your new system!:D

You still doing installments on your Phase Change how to article?

Did you move it? I can't find it:(

[|PuNiSh3R|]

I don't have anything on the phase change article right now.. to busy to finish it up.. I'll have pics of the system this weekend.. Right now I don't have a place to host my article.

[Bulldog20]

You know how long a Cap hose ;) is on the old Classic Vapochill?

Go look it up, you'll be surprised :D

Cheers

[aenigma]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
Ok, I just skimmed over some of these posts.. I will side with prometeia on this 100%.. I'd rather see my next door neighbor and my worst enemy buy a prometeia over a vapochill.. I mean.. I wouldn't WISH a vapochill on my worst enemy.. Everyone knows how much I hate pre-fab garbage.. but prometeia is really the champ in the pre-fab kingdom.

Zubzero.. if you think my work is such garbage.. wait a couple of days.. and see the current system I am building.. tell me it's garbage then.. I'll have pics as soon as possible..

Btw, aenigma, I just bought that torch, JTH7 or whatever.. the one u got.. wow.. it's really awesome.. Brazing blocks is much easier now.. I use my regular hand torch and propane to heat the block up then I get the new torch out and put mapp on it.. heh.. I just gotta sell this F'in oxy/mapp torch now..

Oh.. And I am an ass.. just to clear the record.

Yes it is a nice torch isn't it :)

Yes they should have already ran the cap tube either through the suction line, or around it.It will help to boil off any remaining refrigerant, so there probably wouldnt be a need for an accumulator.I still say they are far behind, and they are NOT doing the best they can do.Not even close.
Prometeia is the better one here, but still lacking.

I don't think I would believe anythng your tech said, I have heard some of the thngs the techs you talk to say.I also know an hvac tech, and he has no idea about refrigeration.It is sad.

I don't think vapochill was the first phase change system, I always thought it was the kyrotech.

You know, it is pointless to try and argue with me and tell me the vapochill works good, and that they cant do a better job.Until you start getting temps of about -20 then my opinion is that they suck.I don't know why people pay over 400 dollars for something that gets them -2c.You can make a cheap water chiller that will work better...

[TheDude]

Thread has been closed for review, but left up for view as it contains some good information...Please feel free to open another related thread if needed.