is this condensor ok

[kayl]

ok im going to be making a direct die (first try)
i got an old condensor and chopped it down with a grinder, axe and hammer and screw driver, these babies are thick

[kayl]

and here it is finished, i used 3x120mm AC fans, these babies can move 120 (forgot prefixes for air movement) they are really good fans. for testing i have made a normal ac plug, but when its finished it will be connected to the compressor controls, i have removed the thermostat and will have two fan speeds to choose from? do you think this condenser will be cable of moving 200w of heat plus the heat from the compressor?

[chilly1]

Probably work. kinda long hook it up if you can get airflow throgh it it should work depends on your heat load.. it may be too much and if it is slow the fans down.

[kayl]

anther angle

[kayl]

I only need to find some copper to make the block now. I will be using R290 to charge it. I have a friend making a box, using 8mm thick wood to put it in (all laminated maybe wood grain finish) be safe
Here it is so far, it brazed in sections so i can arrage, move things easier, once got everything will braze here all up and decied where everything goes in the box

[kayl]

Originally posted by chilly1
Probably work. kinda long hook it up if you can get airflow throgh it it should work depends on your heat load.. it may be too much and if it is slow the fans down.


by slowing the fans down how will this help, im interested?
is it because the liquid in the condensor will be warmer so move faster?

[Redwolf]

Yes it will.. basicly keeping your high pressure to a lvl were the cap tube will function correctly. ie pressure drop

Looks more like a reach-in evap to me.

[LardArse]

How well do those hoses work in the long run? Chilly1 said something about them stretching over time, but I see quite a few people using them. I can easily get the exact same ones at pretty cheap prices and they're softer than the stainless steel hoses that just arrived.

[kayl]

yeah the pipe was half the price of the stainless steal ones
it said 3000kpa on it, and the guy said he makes all the hoses that the refrigeration shop next door used in their gear.
I though I would give it a go

[RussC]

OK,
So what kinds hose it that, a standard hydraulic hose? Do you know what the hose material is?

Thanks,
RussC


yeah the pipe was half the price of the stainless steal ones
it said 3000kpa on it, and the guy said he makes all the hoses that the refrigeration shop next door used in their gear.
I though I would give it a go

[MeltedDuron]

wtf mate?!?! this thread is over a year old...

[RussC]

Ya,
I know, but Im stil interested in any info if you can use standard hydraulic hose with refrigeration gases?

I could start a new thread, but why, if one already exists.

RussC


wtf mate?!?! this thread is over a year old...

[MeltedDuron]

point taken... I belive it can be done, but the hoses are prone to leaking after time. I wouldn't trust one for more than 6 months personally.

[kayl]

So what kinds hose it that, a standard hydraulic hose? Do you know what the hose material is?

russC, yeah its standard hydraulic hose. Apparently it does stretch over time (without braid). But it seems that everyone is using it without the braid on single stages, even in commercial units. The max pressure it will see on a single stage is when its switched off. Im using it now without braid on single stages, but always with the braid on cascades as the static pressure is higher than the single stages.
Its made out of stainless steel.
RussC is good to see ppl reading the old threads.
About a year ago and a little earlier than that, there were a hole lot more of guys around with lots and lots of knowledge. There are only a few of those guys left now.
There are a lot of good threads out there hey.

[RussC]

thats good to know. I was at the Parker-Hannofin distributor today. They have hydraulic hose that has a middle steel braid. So rubber outside for better abrassion resistance, center braid then inner rubber. I believe if hydraulic hose is OK, then this would work also. I may try some of that.

I really like the Parker A-lok stuff. The Stainless is really good stuff that Ive used on the vacum system in the wafer etchers I work with. And these etchers pull like uTorr vacums. I like compression fittings over flares anyday. I starting with some bone stock brass and see how that works. If its OK, I have some Parker weld to compression fittings for the compressor interconnects. Then the hose.

I look at the older threads as much as I can and when other people bring them up.

RussC


russC, yeah its standard hydraulic hose. Apparently it does stretch over time (without braid). But it seems that everyone is using it without the braid on single stages, even in commercial units. The max pressure it will see on a single stage is when its switched off. Im using it now without braid on single stages, but always with the braid on cascades as the static pressure is higher than the single stages.
Its made out of stainless steel.
RussC is good to see ppl reading the old threads.
About a year ago and a little earlier than that, there were a hole lot more of guys around with lots and lots of knowledge. There are only a few of those guys left now.
There are a lot of good threads out there hey.

[gkiing]

holy thread revival!

[Cr@sh_D1n3r]

I don't know where you live but here in Canada, compression fittings are illegal to use in refrigeration. Not that you can't use it because it's illegal but there must be a reason for that :P

[wdrzal]

parker hydraulic fittings are Flare fitting not compression, when parker refers to compression they are talking about the end of the fitting that is crimped onto the hose. its a "compression crimp"

compression fitting arn't used because they have the potential of blowing apart(slipping thru the compression ring) if not tight, they also leak .

[RussC]

Ummm, huuu....

Well, I wasn't talking to hydraulic fittings, just the hose. I agree that flare is used in a wide variety for applications, including hydraulics. Your right, compression is not used in hydraulic applications. Hydraulic pressures are much higher than refrigeration apps, by an order of magnitude. You wouldnt even use copper in a hydraulic system, systems pressures are too high for copper when your talking thousands of psi.

So, compression has a "blowing apart" problem? As I see it, there no more prone to connection issues than flares. The key here is quality of connector, pipe and application. In looking at the Parker catalog, the compression systems(specifically A-lok) have a higher pressure rating than pipe fittings. Parker states the key to there compression system is the tubes radial resistance to the fitting. The proper thichness is essential to this connection system. SS is the best, but copper is sufficient for refrigeration. And I believe offers enough thickness ie resistance to seal properly in a 300psi refrig system without even a remote chance of blowing appart, as you say. You would be spot on if I was trying to use a rubber hose with compression fittings, although there is data to indicate that this could be accomplished with proper hose and inserts for the compression fitting.

I guess I should look at this some more. But in the mean time, I'm going to give it a shot, the worst is it could blow up, and Ive done that before, and melted stuff....

RussC


parker hydraulic fittings are Flare fitting not compression, when parker refers to compression they are talking about the end of the fitting that is crimped onto the hose. its a "compression crimp"

compression fitting arn't used because they have the potential of blowing apart(slipping thru the compression ring) if not tight, they also leak .

[wdrzal]

Think how you put togeather a compression fitting, you put the nut on the tube then SLIDE the compressing ring on, then you tighten the nut. do this but only tighten the nut hand tight, what happens ??? you can pull the tube back out thru the ring and thru the nut. is slipped off. even when thighted this can happen.

now slide a flare nut on a tube, make the flare and hand tighten, you can't pull the tube back thu because of the flare.even when loose,

[RussC]

OK,
I see that, but thats a safety issue, not a connection integrity issue once the proper seal is made.

In the semi-conductor industry where I work, frequently, the gass control systems used for manufacturing/processing/etching of wafers use compression fittings with gasses that will kill you in the single digit ppm range if theres a leak. So, if its its good enough for that, I'll give it a shot. I can't speak to systems that have loose connections and make a determination if that acceptable or not. I guess that why you should pressure test a system before saddling it into operation:nono:

RussC


Think how you put togeather a compression fitting, you put the nut on the tube then SLIDE the compressing ring on, then you tighten the nut. do this but only tighten the nut hand tight, what happens ??? you can pull the tube back out thru the ring and thru the nut. is slipped off. even when thighted this can happen.

now slide a flare nut on a tube, make the flare and hand tighten, you can't pull the tube back thu because of the flare.even when loose,

[wdrzal]

OK,
I see that, but thats a safety issue, not a connection integrity issue once the proper seal is made.

RussC
if the tube blows apart I'd say thats a connection integrity issue.

just to be clear we are taliking flare vs compression ring type joint right?????

both are technically compression fittings.

even a flare fitting is a compression joint from a engineering perspectice. since compression is what makes the seal.

[gkiing]

I dont think compression fittings are illigal in canada. Their sold everywhere. And some of them even advertise diy fridge repairs.

But its still not a good idea.

[RussC]

Yes, were talking the same fittings. Flare is just that, a flared tube that mates to a flare male end. Compression is as you say, a ring that is compressed around the tube as it's crushed around by the fitting surface. correct, their both "compression" joints.

So, why would a tube blow apart, as long as the limits of the tube are not exceded by too much crushing or over-pressuring:confused:

RussC


if the tube blows apart I'd say thats a connection integrity issue.

just to be clear we are taliking flare vs compression ring type joint right?????

both are technically compression fittings.

even a flare fitting is a compression joint from a engineering perspectice. since compression is what makes the seal.

[wdrzal]

Where the rings seals on the tube the surface area is very small, only the outer edges compress,, making it a weak joint,. also because their is actually 2 mechanical seals there is more of a chance to leak. the ring has to seal to the tube .then the ring to the fitting. If you over tighten they will leak . they are mostly used for plumbing , they became popular for DIY's becase you need only to tighten the fitting and only a wrench is needed..... there fine for low pressure<<<250 psi the rating differs depending on material they are used on. They work a lot better on hard copper than on soft copper, they tend to crush it. the plastic rings seem to work quite well on small diameter plastic tube. Personally I hate them and try to avoid using them. if you install one and it leaks, there is notheing to do but cut it off and start over. Stick with flare if you need a joint that must be dissasembled. In building a system I try to avoid even flare fittings and braze as many joints as possible.

[RussC]

Yes,
I see what your saying, I know these issues. But, the Parker A-lok is dual ferrule compression fitting. Swagelok has a similar system. The actual compression ring has a larger seal area than a "standard" compression ring, then the second ferrule puts more uniform pressure on the first ring to reduce torsional forces and make a better seal, plus it also grips the tube also for a second sealing area. Gee, I guess I sound like there spokesperson. Anyway, its a better system than just a normal compression ferrule(ring) system. Parker also has the MPI, which is rated to 1500psi with stainless. But that stuff is way expensive, so not go. Paker rates the normal brass to 350psi, and the A-lok to the limit of the tubing used.

I guess theres no perfect answer, other than Im giving the stuff a try. At the least its another data point, and somehting else to do and explore.

RussC


Where the rings seals on the tube the surface area is very small, only the outer edges compress,, making it a weak joint,. also because their is actually 2 mechanical seals there is more of a chance to leak. the ring has to seal to the tube .then the ring to the fitting. If you over tighten they will leak . they are mostly used for plumbing , they became popular for DIY's becase you need only to tighten the fitting and only a wrench is needed..... there fine for low pressure<<<250 psi the rating differs depending on material they are used on. They work a lot better on hard copper than on soft copper, they tend to crush it. the plastic rings seem to work quite well on small diameter plastic tube. Personally I hate them and try to avoid using them. if you install one and it leaks, there is notheing to do but cut it off and start over. Stick with flare if you need a joint that must be dissasembled. In building a system I try to avoid even flare fittings and braze as many joints as possible.

[wdrzal]

now what a second, now your talking hydraulic fittings they in a different class then a compression ring for a copper tube, your talking apples and oranges .

did you check the permability of the hose? what about the corrosive effects of refrigerants on the hose? why do you guys always wonder off from the approved ,tried and tested procedures and materials ?

[RussC]

No,
Im not sure you read my post thoroughly, The MPI is for mid pressure hydraulic stuff, and as I stated in my post, with stainless steel line! The MPI is still a compression ring(ferrule) system. But for much higher pressure systems.

Parker(and probably Swagelok) have a # of fitting systems to use for many applications. The BSPP stuff looks good also for refrigeration(not used with rubber hydraulic hose).

While this stuff may not be the "tried and true" or "approved" stuff, why not try it? Thats whay this forum is for, trying stuff and going a different direction. I like the exploration path also. If I was doing this for living, then your statement is correct.

RussC


now what a second, now your talking hydraulic fittings they in a different class then a compression ring for a copper tube, your talking apples and oranges .

did you check the permability of the hose? what about the corrosive effects of refrigerants on the hose? why do you guys always wonder off from the approved ,tried and tested procedures and materials ?