View Full Version : one long week end
ok on the week end i finally got to make my first water chiller.
here are the parts below
first i pump R22 in for a while, turned off and turned on the chiller and let the Freon stabilise, it went high-220PSI and LOW 25PSI
it started to frost yayaayay:banana:
for the evaporator i used 20' of 1/4 OD copper tube and 5' of 0.026 captubing
Ok and this is what it finally looks like (below)
So far I only ran for about 20mins and it went from 17dec down to -1 deg in about 20mins.
megahurtz-oc
05-02-2004, 07:25 PM
how much did you spend to get that -1c?
megahurtz-oc
05-02-2004, 07:26 PM
or -1f ?
at the moment my personal computer is fauly, i just bough a new mother board and graphics card, cause of a leak before.
but the new motherboard doest like my SATA hardrives and i cant even install windows, so i cant tune this baby, most probly wont have a computer for about 5 weeks:mad:
i have left the chiller running this morning while im at work to see how cold she gets, cant wait.
over the next few weeks i think i might have to dig out my 130w tec and use that to fine tune the system untill i get my pc back in action.
Originally posted by megahurtz-oc
how much did you spend to get that -1c?
all up cost me $260
but i have enoght pipe, captude left to make 3 more systems, with other compressors that i have.
-1 C this is only after 20mins
when i get home from work it would have been running for about
9 hours,
it is only a baby compressor, uses 110w.
kommando
05-02-2004, 08:12 PM
Kayl where you got all this gear?
your local kirby refrigeration shop,
heres a link for all the aussies out there
http://www.kirbyjn.com.au/contacts/
click on where you are and they give you their address and phone number to call and speak to them, they even do online
they sell everything you need except refrigerant, they said that they can only sell if you have an account and a license
PHASE CHANGE ITCH, or should i say little voices in my head telling me all these ideas of what i could do to improve the system.
i just hope when i get home today that the chillier hasnt overheated and blown up.
water_cooler 20
05-03-2004, 03:24 AM
the reason your temps are high it it took 20 min to get to -1C is because your cap tube is to resctive i would know since on my 1st chiller i used that sized cap tube it would hit -14C in 5hours:D so i switched to 5ft of .036 and now ii would hit almost -50C in 20min or less
Gary Lloyd
05-03-2004, 01:52 PM
.031 cap tube is best for chillers.
water_cooler 20
05-03-2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
.031 cap tube is best for chillers.
opps thats what i ment:D
when i got home it was -12 deg, but i had a very large ice bloke as well, gonna need some more anti freeze.
Originally posted by kayl
at the moment my personal computer is fauly, i just bough a new mother board and graphics card, cause of a leak before.
but the new motherboard doest like my SATA hardrives and i cant even install windows, so i cant tune this baby, most probly wont have a computer for about 5 weeks:mad:
i have left the chiller running this morning while im at work to see how cold she gets, cant wait.
over the next few weeks i think i might have to dig out my 130w tec and use that to fine tune the system untill i get my pc back in action.
cause i have no computer to play on i have also started my brew,
for when i get thirsty on the computer:toast: :toast:
finally i decied to take my motherboard in today, they game me a new one, they didnt even check it, didnt even have to sign nothing. turns out the SATA part of the mother board was faulty kept crashing.
so im all back together now and ready to chill.
below is a picture of the esky all frozen over
ok i replaced the small fridge compressor for a 1\3 HP airconditioner compressor and i shortened the 0.026 captubing down to 4 foot, so once i have cheaked for leaks etc ill post temp's
is 220psi ok for high side pressure? 25psi ok for low side?
what is a good starting point to tune my system
Gary Lloyd
05-05-2004, 12:19 PM
Pressures depend upon temperatures. Normal low side pressure depends on what your coolant temp is, so we need to know both. Normal high side pressure depends on what your room air temp is, so we need to know both.
the other day i pressured tested the system but i have found a leak in my new system where the high side goes from copper pipe to the steal condenser that you find on the back of you every day life fridge, what type of brazing rod do i need to use, rods just don’t want to take and beads off?
echow87
05-08-2004, 05:40 AM
very impressed that its your first waterchiller and its doing so fine, i cant wait to start building one, how much did that cost ya?
the cost is a little hard to work out and cause its in australian dollors wont mean much to most, most will infact think that is cost lots.
i had to start from scratch, get all the tools i need. $260
all the building materials i used just for this chillier didnt cost much at all $50 ($1 US=$.6 AUS)
when you get the copper its like a 15m roll (i only used 6 metres)
and i have enough cap tubing left for another system
i got the compressor for free,
ok on the week end i made two fittings to try and put some r290 into the system, i didnt have much luch though this one the thread didnt quite match, so it leaked.
the second try i decieded to modify a propane torch piece, that one fitted but it also was leaking a little.
this is me charging outside.
man this stuff is really could definetly need those glove.
when it was leaking i had drops of r290 falling to the ground it was cool. i managed to fill it a little, but i ran out of propane
i went to the camping store yesterday after work and picked up a 2kg bottle of R290, only cost $7 to fill too, this is going to fill a heap of systems. i got a camping gas oven hose chopped the end off and shoved a shraeder valve into it and put a couple of hose clamps on it.
pulled a vacuum and tried to fill it.
this time it worked like a dream no leaks. the only proble is that when i turn the compressor on it shakes then switches off, i wait for the relay to reset then try again, it does the same thing?
ok i have redone my system using my new condensor that i made and charged with R290. i managed to get to -22 deg in 1.5 hours, but i let a bit too much gas out trying to get the low side pressure under 50 psi, and now high side is only at 100 PSI
but i found out that i had burnt oil so i need to change the oil, for this type of compressor do i just drill a hole in the top of the compressor and drain the oil out?
Gary Lloyd
05-13-2004, 01:05 PM
It is not possible to get -22 (is that C or F?) with low side pressure anywhere near 50psi. Either the temp is wrong or the gauge is wrong. I don't believe the high side gauge either.
yesterday i did 4 compressor oil changes, when i was doing the oil change on the compressor in my last post, when i put it all back to gether it kept triping the mains, i measured the active and the netual there was a 5ohm short to the ground so i stuffed it. so instead i have useed a compressor out of a 6500 BTU airconditioner.
it went from 15 C to 0 C in 22 mins, then it went down to -30 C in 1hr 02mins, it then sat at that temperature for an hour. at about -25C i cut the power to one of the fans as the condensor was pretty cool, and i was wonding if i increased the pressure on the high side if it would cool better.
at -30C i cut the power to the second fan and the temperature went down.
i can now see why the pros want to know what the high side and the low side temperature is as well as pressures, i have noticed that it greatly effects the pressure. when i had 3 fans running, high side would be about 170PSI, i turn the 3 fans off, and the pressure would rise on the high side to almost 250PSI.
when i had 3 fans going the compressor started to freeze where it went into the compressor so i cut the power to one of the fans and just running on 2, now only the suction line freezes and pressure about 170PSI high side
at the moment the low side is -30C @ 12PSI, the room temperature is 20C and the high side pressure is about 160/170PSI and the condensor is warm to touch but not steaming hot, i say up to 30C (guessing)
is it best to have the condensor as cool as possible to room temp?
what is the ideal temp of the condesor?
Gary Lloyd
05-16-2004, 01:56 AM
Turn on all of the fans. If the bottom of the compressor gets cold when the evaporator is at its lowest temperature, you have too much refrigerant in the system. Stop trying to achieve some preconceived notion of what pressures should be.
When the water is at its lowest temperature, the suction line should be frosted, and the bottom of the compressor should be warm. If the bottom of the compressor is cold, there is too much refrigerant in the system. The pressures are whatever they are. Stop trying to make the pressures be what you want them to be.
ok i changed the cap tube to 6' of 0.026mm
i also ran it around and around and insulated and ran for 3 hours
ive been working on my new res
and this is my chillier, first run it went to -25deg in about 3 mins
its my 6500BTU compressor
i had 4' 0.031 cap tube, so i added about 2.5' more.
now it goes to -34deg in about 15mins but no highter
and this is the box that i plan to put it into
i tried it with this 1000BTU to 1400BTU compressor and it only got to about -26deg in 1 hour so i tried the compressor in the previous posts.
i found that when using the smaller compressors it was harder to charge the system. i never seemed to be able to get enough suction on the low side to get the R290 out of the bottle and into the system, no matter how long i left the bottle connected and the system running with the low side open could only get the pressure on the high side to 160psi.
with the new compressor i can actually over charge the system pritty easly, the compressor has enough suction power to easly charge the system. the current pressures are low 25PSI and high 220PSI, the compressor started to freeze so i let some gass out of the high side so that there is only a small amount of frost forming on the side of the compressor and that the bottom of the compressor is still hot
Bra!nFreeZe^
05-23-2004, 11:49 AM
Looks really nice ! :) I was wondering...what voltages do you use on your wall outlets ? 230 110 ?
Pimpsho
05-24-2004, 08:18 AM
wow thats impressive!! when you gona hook her up and do some benching? cheers :toast:
Gary Lloyd
05-25-2004, 04:08 AM
i found that when using the smaller compressors it was harder to charge the system. i never seemed to be able to get enough suction on the low side to get the R290 out of the bottle and into the system, no matter how long i left the bottle connected and the system running with the low side open could only get the pressure on the high side to 160psi.
with the new compressor i can actually over charge the system pritty easly, the compressor has enough suction power to easly charge the system. the current pressures are low 25PSI and high 220PSI, the compressor started to freeze so i let some gass out of the high side so that there is only a small amount of frost forming on the side of the compressor and that the bottom of the compressor is still hot
The high side pressure has absolutely nothing to do with charging the system, nor does the compressor size. If you are trying to make the high side pressure be what you want it to be, you are doing it wrong. It is what it is, and what it is has more to do with room temp than anything else.
oc_nightmare
05-30-2004, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by kayl
i went to the camping store yesterday after work and picked up a 2kg bottle of R290, only cost $7 to fill too, this is going to fill a heap of systems. i got a camping gas oven hose chopped the end off and shoved a shradder valve into it and put a couple of hose clamps on it.
pulled a vacuum and tried to fill it.
this time it worked like a dream no leaks. the only proble is that when i turn the compressor on it shakes then switches off, i wait for the relay to reset then try again, it does the same thing?
could u show a pic of how did u shoved a shradder into the gas hose? im going to do the same for my direct die but ive no idea how to do it;)
thax for that info garry, i guess i am so stuck on the pressure thing because i though everything had alot to do with the pressure
so i will acept what eva high side pressure is, it is
and the size of the compressor in regards to charging has nothing to do with it either.
normally i would pull a vacuum
turn the system on and let the system run while filling
when i should be static charging first, then once the system gets cold i should then tweak the system with a load on it
Gary Lloyd
06-03-2004, 07:00 AM
Where there is a saturated mixture, the pressure corresponds to the temperature. Saturated means there is both liquid and vapor. When you look at a pressure/temperature (P/T) chart, you are looking at the pressures corresponding to temperatures at saturation. If you know the pressure, you know the temperature and vice versa.
Imagine you have a container of refrigerant. The liquid level in the container could be near the bottom or near the top, or anywhere in between. The pressure in the container will match the room temperature regardless of the liquid level, so long as there is both liquid and vapor in the container.
I think people are getting confused from reading the cascade threads, where the low stage system is static charged, containing VAPOR ONLY, and the pressure does not correspond to temperature.
Refrigeration is about temperatures, not pressures. And in fact it isn't even about temperatures, its about temperature differences. For the most part, the purpose of taking pressure readings is to determine the saturation temperatures. Once I know what the saturation temperatures are, I don't care what the pressures are. They are of secondary importance.
Depending upon the relative condenser and condenser fan sizes, the high side pressure will indicate that the refrigerant is condensing at a temperature that is a few degrees above ambient temperature.
Note that this involves two temperatures, i.e. ambient temperature (condenser air in temp) and saturated condensing temperature (SCT), and the difference between these temperatures (condenser TD) tells us something about the relative condenser and condenser fan sizing.
This is just one example of the many temperature differences throughout the system that tell us everything we need to know about that system.
thaks gary
this is my new res in larger size pipe so i can fit a water pump in there as i borke one of the comnnections off the pump and the only way i can use it now is if i submerge it. i will be running a L30 in this tube res. the pump will be sucking from the very bottom and exiting out the side at the bottom, and the return pipe will come in through the lid where the power cord, suction line and cap tube will exit
i have a few questions to ask about this chillier
what temperature do you think this water pump will be able to handle I’m a little worried that the pump might crack.
I will be filling the bottle full or insulation to reduce volume of res, is glass safe at -40 deg C?
in the past i was using 0.026 captube 7foot and i have recently bought 0.031 to try and by what number would i multiple to get a equivalant length
any think would be a great help?:devil:
Reflex1
06-06-2004, 08:32 AM
leet reserviour :toast:
dunno muc habout this ...but i doubt the pump will survive -40C long
and this is the pump mounted in the pipe
Titan151
06-06-2004, 08:20 PM
Wow looks really good. Clever idea putting the pump inside the res. It may have trouble with the temp but then again it would be nice to have one less exposed item to worry about. Not to mention it will keep your tubing lenghts to a minimum. Just don't try making a connection while theres water in it. I was fighting puting a hose on a submerged pump in -5 C water. Good way to change the color of your hands:D !
Well its almost ready now for some real testing. I have the pump hooked up to a maze4-1 with a 130w tec. With this I can vary the meanwell power supply to simulate a load from 130w up to about 170w and show some loaded temps.
First try I found that the cap tube was sealed shut, so I fixed that and charged the system and a quick run it to to -22deg C in a few minutes, but I noticed that there was a leak in the connection between the pump and the res so I had to shut down. I put some more sealant on the leak so it should be ready by tomorrow so ill post full load temps then.
Pimpsho
06-07-2004, 05:18 PM
awesome good to see your gettin somewhere with it!!! :toast:
i gave it a try today it got to -15 deg C in 10 mins and still charging, then after another 15 mins it went to -20 degc so its a little slower pull down that the last res but i guess this one has the pump in it
anyways im out of time so imm off to work:dammit:
oc_nightmare
06-08-2004, 03:51 PM
how much time is it till it goes to the minus temp?
looking good;)
to go from room temperature to -15deg C it takes about 30mins, then there is frost forming on the compressor so i turned the 130w load on, the frost goes away, i left it for 2 hours when i can back this is what temperature i got?
the pressor for the low side is 65 in Hg and the high side is 210PSI
im using about 6.5 foot of 0.036 cap tubing, what should i do to get better temperatures, shorten the cap tube, or add/remove R290.
Any suggestions would be great
:doh:
Gary Lloyd
06-10-2004, 06:39 PM
.036 is not suitable. You need .028 or .031 cap tube.
ar sorry gary, i made a mistake keypad typo error
im actually using 0.031
also i dont have insulation on the res yet just want to be a 100% sure its not leaking, by insulating will i gain many deg's C, the pipe res is sorta cold with condensation forming but not no ice forms even at -15deg C, so i guess being plastic it has a small amount of insulation properties
Gary Lloyd
06-10-2004, 07:20 PM
You do not have 65 in Hg. The Hg is the green numbers below zero. Nor do you have 65 psi. I can't quite read your gauges in the pic, but I am guessing about 35psi.
Is the bottom of the compressor cold?
its bolted to a board so i can feel the exact bottom, but at the bottom of the compress on the corner its hot,
i havnt quiet worked out how to read the gauges yet i think thats why when i give pressures they sound incorrect cause i cant read the damb things
heres a close up of my gauges from a past post im reading 65 on the outer most scale blue and 210 PSI off the red gauge on the outer most scale, which of theres scales should i read
then there is the blue scale R12 then R22 then i think R507 all in blue and read in deg C, what are these used for
same with the red gauges on the high side gauge what are they used for?
Gary Lloyd
06-10-2004, 07:35 PM
The outermost scales are psi.
I think you have way too much refrigerant in the system. Remove refrigerant until your low side pressure is about 10 psi.
Redwolf
06-10-2004, 07:37 PM
The outer "Black" Txt reads in PSIG.
So from your pic I see 12psig Low and 162psig High pressure.
The next text in reads in kPa...
Don't bother trying to use the guages P/T chart. Use a good pocket or other one
suva (http://www.dupont.com/suva)
Gary Lloyd
06-10-2004, 07:48 PM
And turn off the 130W load. With your res not insulated, it has plenty of load.
thanx guys, i thought this might be the case, ill give it anther go tonight after work letting some gas out and insulating the res and see what i get.
i want to get the system perfect using the 130w tec before i bring the chillier into the computer room, or i would have to put the computer in the shed.
for my total heat load i have 27w for pump and 130w for tec load.
then there is loss to insulation (~25w guessing) then i add 25% for heat from the compressor.
so i guess my total heat load is about 215w is a cap tube lenght of 6.5 foot about right when using R290 and 0.031 cap tube?
Gary Lloyd
06-10-2004, 07:51 PM
Right now you have a big heat load from your res not being insulated.
Gary Lloyd
06-10-2004, 07:52 PM
Yes, 6.5 feet of .031 sounds about right.
today i got a barging out of the paper, a new (well really old) airconditioner, its huge 26" L x 21' Deep x 16" high its a 8,600 BTU cooling capacity
once i get a new gas connection and pipe for my barbeque bottle i will be attempting to reclaim all the R22 out of this aircondioner to use for latter projects as i cant purchase refrigerant cause i need a license.
the main reason why i got it is to use the compressor as a vacuum pump, the current compressor is a tad small for the job a 1,400 BTU compressor.
i tried the first of my coopers home brew tonight, it tasted quiet good, so glad it turned out right all i need now is a real beer glass to drink it out
update on chillier i insulated a little and ran the system and the chillier inst cooling to well it got to -30 degs C then i turned the tec load on and it sky dived down in temperautre:toast: :toast:
Gary Lloyd
06-11-2004, 09:24 AM
Sky dived UP in temperature?
sorry rose in temps my bad, i think i let too much gass out, i thought i will start from scratch, with a better vacuum and a new drier, i only did a sigle vacuum and not a very good one last time too Impatient, that way i can taake the res out and insulate it properly i vacuumed all the r22 out of airconditioner and i am going to rewire the compressor with no switches
ok i did a quick job on the res today
and this is my new vacuum pump, it uses 920W from the 8,600BTU airconditioner, what size compressor do you think it is, it an old R22, poor power:mad:
Here is a pic of the suction line at full load. I can't measure the temp of the suction but I though this might be a good indication. The current pressure on the gauges is 13.5PSI low and 175 HIGH. The res temperature is -22.6 deg C and holding for and 2 hours.
I think I have reach a limit, I did a little pinching on the cap tube but it didn’t do much
Should I add a foot and recharge to get lower temps?
The room temperature it about 16 deg C
ok its winter here so i bought a heater belt for my home brew, (25W belt)
and im gonna add etra half amount of sugar to get 7% ACHL beer
i know with glass bottles the extra sugar can make 3 or more pop during process,
this thing bubbles gas out the topone bubble every 6 seconds
so i think the plastic bottles will handle a little more pressure:toast:
All I need now is a 20w light globe and insulate this cupboard and I should be able to keep the beer during carbonation process 2 between 21-29 deg C so the yeast works best.
Gary Lloyd
06-14-2004, 08:34 AM
In the pic, there is a small spot of frost on the side of the compressor where the suction line enters. Remove refrigerant slowly, a little at a time, until that frost melts. Then wait a while. If the frost re-appears, do it again.
thanxs garry i will give it a try, its so hard to get it to that point
edit:
it now goes beteween -19 degs C to -22.9 deg C depening apond charge
heres the condensation forming on the maze4-1
before i insulated the hole block went completly white
with the fans and compressor running it uses 700W's
Gary Lloyd
06-14-2004, 08:58 AM
What are the temps of the air entering and leaving the condenser?
about 14 degs C the condensor is cold, im using 120CM^3 fans AC X 2
Gary Lloyd
06-14-2004, 09:03 AM
What is 14C, the air entering the condenser or the air leaving the condenser? What are both temps?
this is the final room temp, res temp,and pressure also, i cant measure the air temp entering and leaving my gauges arnt really set for that.
its been in the -19-23 degs C range now for a total of 5 hours now. i think if i was to put it on the computer the way it is i might gain a few degs.
also gary i could say that my condensor is at room temperature at full load, so the air going through it would be around room temoperure, the airconditioner cut down 3/8 condensor has a very large surface area
i think the pressure is about 8PSI LOW and 143PSI or so hig side.
Gary Lloyd
06-14-2004, 09:41 AM
I've lost track. What compressor are you using now?
the chillier that had the 130w load and pump was using a compressor out of a 6,500BTU airconditioner, old R22 one
and this is another chillier i made today with a smaller res. not insulated that well yet, burnt it by accident with torch
the pressures are 5PSI LOW and 155PSI high.
its about a 1000-14000 BTU compressor out of a large fridge freezer and uses 384W
i think i know that my thermonitor is acurite because the bottle pre mix coolant that i used says good to -37C and when i put it in my first chillier i added a little straight mix to give -38.4C
so far in the last three systems this is the lowest temp i have been able to achive with no load.
i think i have finally found a source of copper in australia, its a place in melbourne i got a return email on prices
i think i might made a direct die using my small 3/8 copper condensor and my small 1400BTU nitrogen charged compressor
it only uses 355W and it can hit -38C on a chillier so i think it will be in the -30's under load
i got my lowest temp today, i was running the compressor with about a 3PSI vacuum. after 1.5 hours the almost the hole res has frozen over.
oc_nightmare
06-21-2004, 08:11 AM
try to make a tap for the res and ull see better temps;)
thanx oc_nightmare.
i think im going to give up on the chilliers.
my pump is playing silly buggers, and finding one that will handle those large temps overtime with out cracking will be hard and costly.
and i still cant find denaturised alcohol in Australia, so the coolant doesn’t thicken up, and get hard to pump, and freeze on evap.
at the moment the pump has stopped pumping, so i pulled the res apart, pulled pump apart and put it back together, the it works. put it back in the res and its not working again. so i pulled it apart put it back together and checked that its still working then put it back in the res and it stops working again.
i can hear it pumping but no liquid comes out.
but the good thing is that i have placed an order for 8 pieces of 600g copper blocks, 50mmx50mmx25mm and i will be making a maze design copper block and trying my luck direct die.
something that normal ppl would find useful:toast:
all i need now is a stuby holder to fit over this
Gary Lloyd
06-23-2004, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by kayl
thanx oc_nightmare.
i think im going to give up on the chilliers.
my pump is playing silly buggers, and finding one that will handle those large temps overtime with out cracking will be hard and costly.
and i still cant find denaturised alcohol in Australia, so the coolant doesn’t thicken up, and get hard to pump, and freeze on evap.
at the moment the pump has stopped pumping, so i pulled the res apart, pulled pump apart and put it back together, the it works. put it back in the res and its not working again. so i pulled it apart put it back together and checked that its still working then put it back in the res and it stops working again.
i can hear it pumping but no liquid comes out.
but the good thing is that i have placed an order for 8 pieces of 600g copper blocks, 50mmx50mmx25mm and i will be making a maze design copper block and trying my luck direct die.
Sounds like you are trying to pump glycol based anti-freeze. It gets very thick at low temps and is near impossible to pump. You need an alcohol based anti-freeze, such as de-natured alcohol. It can usually be found in the paint department. Or you can use automotive gas line anti-freeze, which is methanol.
what about metholated spirits, or thinners.
thats the only thing i can find at the paint shop garry
Gary Lloyd
06-24-2004, 01:02 AM
Read the labels. What does it contain?
oc_nightmare
06-24-2004, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by kayl
i think im going to give up on the chilliers.
yea, if u have enough tools and knowledge in the phase-change physis i think u really should give a try to get in a direct die system:D ;)
good luck m8:toast:
sorry garry is doesnt says what it contains,
its just mineral turpentines.
i have been dying from day one to make a direct die just that i couldnt find copper blocks anywhere.
i am ordering the copper from the other side of australia, and its taken a few months of looking around to finnally get anywhere.
i just finished my latest batch of coopers beer and for my birthday my wife got me a set of scooner glasses:toast:
Originally posted by oc_nightmare
could u show a pic of how did u shoved a shradder into the gas hose? im going to do the same for my direct die but ive no idea how to do it;)
SORRY SO LATE
never actually got around to taking a pic for ya
here it is
i ran out of r290 today
so i grabbed the bottle of the barbeque
this is a 8.8kg bottle
just a few charges here
maybe a few hundred systems i could fill
Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Read the labels. What does it contain?
its 96% ethanol is this ok for pump seals and things.
or do i need menonal
Gary Lloyd
07-12-2004, 01:09 AM
Ethanol seems to work just fine.
Tonic
07-12-2004, 04:31 AM
By the way, what's that 4% in kayl's alcohol? Water or some dirts?
Epsilon
07-12-2004, 05:50 AM
some methanol probably + some water
not sure sorr, is ok on the orings in the water block
or is glyco better on the orings?