2 loops...2 xtreme?

[Joe Camel]

hope y'all dont mind me linking to a thread ive started on another forum...(probly some of the same peops here;) )
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=277159

just thought id try to get input from as many places as i can. feel free to post comments here or over there, i'll be checking both.


PS. IF you read the whole thing: i still havent found the Cascade on my door step...PM me if you have one FS/FT.

[Andrew]

Actually you might want to think about using an idea that I have been tossing around.

Instead of the water mingling in the reservoir put a radiator in there and use it as a heat exchanger. See below for my idea.

The reason I was originally thinking about this was to try out bong cooling. But if you use water wetter or similar in an open system you can either get very bad smells or worse toxic fumes. Plus (I have been informed by someone that does this stuff for a living) a heater core used in water is at least 1000 times better than used in air. For exactly the same reason that water cooling a CPU is better than air cooling.

[Joe Camel]

very odd you say that, i kicked that exact idea (bong cool a HC) around b4 trying this.

i HAD a 220W TEC setup, but the "electric bill / OC" ratio made me stop after 2 months. i got spoiled with 12C temps...so i was trying to come up with something in between.

i figured i could use a 2nd pump & more rads "somehow" if this didnt work;)

[KnightElite]

It won't be as good as straight out bong cooling though, since there will be some loss with the heatercore. The advantage of that solution is that you still get cooling (depending on how the setup is configured) even when the bong runs out of water.

[kommando]

Got links to wtf is a bong!

[sandman]

Evaporative cooling.

I would be all for them, if they didn't look like crap, and they didn't make your room like a jungle.

[Joe Camel]

here are some pics of bongs, and some general info:
http://www.overclockers.com/articles389/

here is another idea on bonging:toast:
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=282327

oya, this too. but i dont think your CPU will enjoy this one as much...http://shop.grasscity.com/images/item_detail/st23_400.jpg

[Andrew]

To bypass the whole bong issue I figured I would try to do a two-loop diagram for your situation.

A couple of things to note:
1. With this type of situation the more radiators in the cooling loop the better. And can be added at your convenience.
2. Some way of getting the water through the heating loop radiator must be found. (In the diagram I just sketched in a shroud connected to the cooling loop pump input.)
3. The reservoir should be as large as possible for a good thermal mass.

Oh, and one other benefit of this system is that if the computer is not used 24/7, then you can leave the cooling loop running to bring down the temps of the reservoir ‘tank’ over night. (A good cold thermal mass!)

Just more of my two cents…

[KnightElite]

With that setup, Andrew, one loses the advantages of the cooling tower, which is to provide sub-ambient temperatures. So the cooling will definitely be inferior, no matter how many radiators are added.

[TheWeaseL]

Just a thought...Wouldn't submerging a heatcore/rad like that cause it to rust? Or am I way out in left field here?

[Joe Camel]

most HC's are copper/alum. so rusting wouldnt be the first thing to worry about. well, hose clamps might rust...

ANYWAY, i LOVE BONG (hits) as much as the next guy, but i was hoping for more input on my 2 loop (non-bong) rig...

we'll all pass the bong (idea) around in another thread :slobber:

edit: OK ill stop with the bong jokes...:banana4:

[Andrew]

The only reason that I gave the other (non-bong) layout was because the original thread was talking about a two loop system using radiators...

I really like the idea of two loops. It should actually give lower temps to the whole hot loop because the hot loop rad can remove many times more heat using water than air...

[b0bd0le]

do bongs really make that much a of a difference? Granted they do get below ambient temptertures, but can that sprinkling water out of the tower compete with a cpu outputting 100+ watts?

Do you need high flowrates for these?

[Joe Camel]

welp, pass the bong...

their the only way you can get below ambient (water) temps without TECs or phase change. ive never built one, but from what ive read, done right, they work quite well.

[Andrew]

b0bd0le, Just lick your finger and blow on it. It got cold right?

Now think about this on a larger scale. Bong cooling.

Then think about it on a massive scale (like most power plants!).
The reason that most power plants use cooling towers is because it's about the best way to remove heat without burning more energy than you generate.

If you can take the humidity that it puts out and, depending on the size of the reservoir, can put up with filling a reservoir every other day. It really can't be beat.

TEC, phase cooling, air cooling all take more more power to do the same job.

Sorry but I don't know the numbers. Other on this forum should be able to provide you with actual stats.

[Jabo]

JoeCamel, fantastiche job m8!
You are a real pro d00d! Lots of time spent, massive dedication and formidable results!
Respect man!

My two pennies here if you don’t mind.

If you think of doing this two loop system what you need is a radiator which has double loop inside, a proper heat exchanger. Two water stream of different temperature have different viscosity, density and what follows different flow characteristics which leads in a straight way into problems with mixing this two streams. You simply end up with water not mixing fully and loosing massively in terms of performance.
The general rule of thumb is to cut down on middle man as much as possible (bongs are the best example).
What we want to achieve is transfer all the thermal energy from CPU to air (or ground-see below).We do it using water as our high thermal capacity-to-volume ratio medium as our trnasportation vessel. The more stages one introduces the more performance loss is going to happen. That's why bongs are so good since they transfer thermal energy from water direclty into air! radiators form another barrier and are not so effective (unless you substantially increse air density running through them via employment of some big mutha fans).
The best performing engineering solutions were always the simplest ones ;) - Ookham's (sp?) Razor theorm kicks in nicely here.


Well, if you want to go below ambient at no cost and are able to do it the only way is to dig a trench in your back garden and lay a lattice of pipes in it.
Constant below temperature (at appropriate depth) thruought the year at no cost (well, you need some big a$$ pump).

[Joe Camel]

wow, thats about the most "good words" ive gotten out of this. thanks Jabo!

all i can say about the mixing of the 2 loops is: with total pump power of 800+GPH and 20'+ of head, the 1.5 usGal (total amount in both loops) gets "mixed" quite well. ;)

ooo BTW: there just might be a Cascade on my doorstep soon!!! :D :D :D

ill be doing a "Dtech WW vs little river Cascade real life head to head" soon!