Best Pumps For Moving Cold Liquid

[OCme]

I have a new project under way and I need some help from all of my friends here at XS. What is the best pump to move really cold liquid in a xtreme chiller? :confused:

[afireinside]

I need to know to. I dont think my Eheim 1250 will withstand -40C or lower...

[Peen]

Danner mag stuff. Get like the 700GPH if it fits...and i think your budget will allow it anways :)

[afireinside]

I'm more concerned about the thing breaking...

[Peen]

like the case breaking? nah i doubt it

[kommando]

Don't most pumps break after -40 over a long period of time?

[OCme]

What about cyrogenic pumps, do they make a small one?

[OCme]

There has to be a pump that can make us more competitive with the direct die guys. It seems to be the only thing holding us back from some real serious cooling here.

[kingsack]

I have been using my Eheim 1250 in this bath http://www.ftssystems.com/multicoolbath.htm and it reaches -40 without difficulty unless I'm benching/folding and such.

My brother has the exact same setup and he hasn't had any problems either.

It has only been a month or so since we started so I can't comment on long term reliability but both of us have been running 24/7 without incident during that time.

Using concentrated windshield washer fluid + 10% antifreze and a dab of watter wetter.

Just my :2cents:

[afireinside]

Ok makes me feel ok about my 1250 at -40C but what about -50? I want to know what PC Ice is using for -50C...

[koensa]

i'm working on a chiller (r134 compressor is used for it) and i will be using a waterpump that i took out of an old dishwasching machine,i think i't'l be much bettter than those plastic pumps thay i have laying around (hydor seltz).


the pump is like 20*10*7.5 cm :D

[kommando]

Anything not plastic would rock :)

[skate2snow]

I dont know why MCP600 havent been named:rolleyes:. That Pump is very solid(light metal), different mechnisme(more powerfull), and will though to more then you think.

Oh and It creates almost no heat;)

[kommando]

Never knew that the MCP600 was metal, meh me buy :)

[afireinside]

I doubt a molex connecter is waterproof and the pump is submersable...

[kommando]

Well you can alwasy make it waterproof with some l33t insulation gear :)

[OCme]

Ok I'll share what I've learned today, anyone feel free to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong cause were all still learning here.

- When you use a metal pump for moving methanol, or any other flammable liquid, it is safer to use a non-sparking metal. i.e.. bronze
-12v pumps are safer for pumping flammable liquids. You can look to see if the pump meets USCG standards for "ignition protection on gas powered boats." 110V pumps while not being as safe will work as well.
- The problem with the pond pumps that I have seen being used like the Ehimes and Danner Mags are not so much the plastic housings, and not so much their bearings, but rather the elastomers( o-rings) that they use. Once this fails the pump will too, a lot of times causing the shaft to vibrate and crack the pump housing.
- Centrifugal pumps seem to be best suited for what we are trying to do here, but others may work. i.e.. magnetic, helical, rotary, vane, gear, or screw.
- To convert GPH to GPM just divide by 60 to get the GPM.
- Here are two that I'm looking at now: AMT model# 4860-97 $175.00 & Norhof LN2 series #900. It's good down to -200C hooks to your computer and comes a software to control it SWEET! (still waiting for a quote from them)

[kommando]

Argh exepensive pump, could make a direct die unit for that sorry.

[OCme]

Originally posted by skate2snow
I dont know why MCP600 havent been named:rolleyes:. That Pump is very solid(light metal), different mechnisme(more powerfull), and will though to more then you think.

Oh and It creates almost no heat;)

I have Swiftech MCP600 rev.2 pump and this may be a good for pump for -50C or better. It utilizes a ceramic bearing and the Ryton thrust washer which is press fit into the impeller. This is high flow industrial pump that may be tuff enough to move some very cold liquid.

[kommando]

But don't you want a pump with strong pumping performance becuase if your cooling gpu.cpu and nb the flow rates will drop?

[OCme]

Originally posted by kommando
Argh exepensive pump, could make a direct die unit for that sorry.

Yea I know, I hear it over and over again, "why don't I just go direct-die," I hear what you are saying kommando. I feel like chillers are more flexible though and besides its a lot easier for someone like me to change and seat a water block as new chips and motherboards evolve then it is to change an evaporator and seat it. A well though out chiller could offer a superior cooling solution for years to come. If I worked in HVAC and had access to all the equipment that it would take to change an evaporator I would go the direct die, but I don't. I guess that's my reason.

[kommando]

True, Chillers are very flexibly just get a touch hard to control when temperatures reduce in huge ammount.

Sorry for my ignorance VV


Originally posted by kommando
But don't you want a pump with strong pumping performance becuase if your cooling gpu.cpu and nb the flow rates will drop?

[OCme]

Originally posted by kommando
True, Chillers are very flexibly just get a touch hard to control when temperatures reduce in huge ammount.

Sorry for my ignorance VV

The guy that will be building my chiller is going to incorporate digital controls to take care of variation in temperature problem. I will be able to control the temp within (+/-) 2 degrees. The issue that I keep reading over and over is pump failure when moving liquid colder than -40C. I think we might just have been using the wrong pumps all along. There are over 10,000 different kinds of pumps being made and I've only see a handful listed here. If we can work together to solve this problem we will give those direct die guys a run for their money. I don't ever want to hear you call your self ignorant again. You give great input on this forum. We are all learning from one another here, and nobody knows everything.

[kommando]

MMMM true, we never know a cheapo pump might just be the answer :)

[OCme]

Anyone know anything about Taco pumps??? This looks like a pump that could tuff enough to move -50C liquid. I found em on ebay pretty cheap too.

[water_cooler 20]

I wonder if the Shurflo Self-Priming Pumps at Rparts would work they are made for water fountions here is the link
http://www.rparts.com/Catalog/Major_Components/pumps/pumps.asp

they also come in differnt volts and GPM

[skate2snow]

kommando: You think the MCP600 is not good coze its only 160GHP? whats better, a 1000GHP pump that can only push up to one feet or a 160GHP pump that can push to 13feet? :rolleyes:

[OCme]

All right team, way to go, there are some really good recommendations here and with new possibilities to explore. This is a great thread, keep em coming. I might have some information on the Swiftech MCP600 rev.2 pump within the next few weeks. I just sent mine off to get tested. I'll let everyone know how well it does as soon as I find out.

[OCme]

Gary I for one would really like to get you opinion on what pump would be best suited for moving xtremely cold liquid especially in the -40C and colder range.:confused:

[Gary Lloyd]

Ellifino. :D

[afireinside]

Links?

[Gary Lloyd]

Ellifino = Hell if I know... LOL

[kommando]

Originally posted by skate2snow
kommando: You think the MCP600 is not good coze its only 160GHP? whats better, a 1000GHP pump that can only push up to one feet or a 160GHP pump that can push to 13feet? :rolleyes:

Well see i wasn't dissing it i was just saying why dosn't it have lots of pumping power but now that you say that it looks to be an awesome pump, plus it runs off 12v :)

[afireinside]

Yea 12V sucks and wouldent the meer 160gph get SLAUGHTERED when you try moving -40C or lower liquid with it?

[skate2snow]

It dosnt really suck if you have a good PSU or a second(like me). And its the perfect pump for cold water;)

[OCme]

Bill Adams sure thought alot of the Swifty, that was good enough for me. Check out this comparison on nine of the top pumps used for water cooling.

http://www.procooling.com/articles/html/pump_comparison__-_phaestus__1.php

[koensa]

this was the pump i was talking about

i think it'l be powerfull right?

[OCme]

Originally posted by koensa
this was the pump i was talking about

i think it'l be powerfull right?

Would depend largerly on what type of elastsomer or o-ring it uses, and what you are going to pump with it. To pump alchol/dextron 80/20% <1GPM. Hope this helps.

[Evil_Spork]

Originally posted by OCme
There has to be a pump that can make us more competitive with the direct die guys. It seems to be the only thing holding us back from some real serious cooling here.

methinks an outside driven all metal pump would do it.

the kind that use an outside power source, so an outside electric motor woudl spin the impeller... its an idea.

[saratoga]

Originally posted by OCme
Bill Adams sure thought alot of the Swifty, that was good enough for me. Check out this comparison on nine of the top pumps used for water cooling.

http://www.procooling.com/articles/html/pump_comparison__-_phaestus__1.php

I think pH wrote that, not Bill. Also, since Bill works for Swiftec, I'd hope he approves or their pumps ;)

[OCme]

Originally posted by saratoga
I think pH wrote that, not Bill. Also, since Bill works for Swiftec, I'd hope he approves or their pumps ;)


Please read again, I said "this is a comparison of the top nine pumps used in water cooling." I did not say that he wrote it. I am aware of who the author is. I believe that this pump may be capable of moving liquid colder than -40C, but I do not know for sure. The gentleman that will be testing it for me will have it sometime today. I will let everyone know how it does as soon as I find out. Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make a cake. So if this does not work we will be testing others.;)

[OCme]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Ellifino. :D

Ho no... NOT the dreaded "Ellifino". I'm sill going to get a set of your books Gary cause I've heard they are top notch, but taxes are due and I have pumps to test, just no extra funds at the moment.:)

[runmc]

http://home.comcast.net/~rbmccall2000/wsb/media/78548/site1510.jpg

This is my old set-up with the 500gph pondmaster. I had my coolant (pure methanol) down to -50c with no pump problems.

AAAHHH these were the good old days;)

Garys probably copying his evaporator idea from mine.:eek: LMAO

[gouda96]

Do you guys think the eheim 1060 would do alright at -25c? That's the only pump I have right now, and I might move to a better chiller once I get done witht his one, so how would it do at -40c? Any idead?

thanks.

[kommando]

Anyone tried washing machine pumps for water chilling?

[OCme]

Originally posted by runmc


This is my old set-up with the 500gph pondmaster. I had my coolant (pure methanol) down to -50c with no pump problems.


The pondmaster sounds very promising. I really like the way you have it setup runmc. The PVC pipe with holes drilled in it on the bottom pulling the methanol through the evap, while the pipe on the top with notches cut into it sprays the liquid across the top is a great idea! Good work man!

:toast:

[afireinside]

That looks like my mag3...

[gouda96]

any opinions on my 1060?

[kommando]

What about this pump?
http://www.daviescraig.com.au/newproduct_ebp.asp

[OCme]

Ok, I'm hoping lay to rest all the questions I have been getting concerning Eheim pumps 1046,1048,1050, & 1060 in this one post as best I can. The elastomer or (o-ring) material used in each of these pumps is called perbunan and was developed by Bayer in the 1930's, the same company that makes aspirin. I spoke to Yannick (Nick) Miller at Ehime and he said that this elastomer was good from -40C to 120C. He said long term reliability below -40C would not be very good and would void the warranty of the pump. So if your chiller temperature is going to be -40C or less then any of these pumps should work fine and give good long term reliability. If you will be chilling colder than -40C then I would avoid using one of these pumps.

[gouda96]

Sweet, thanks alot ocme. I am just doing a basic 5200 btu ac unit conversion, so dropping below -40c isn't an immmediate worry :toast:

[Lotec25]

This is an idea. I am looking at Fuel pumps on cars. They will work in extreme cold it is just that fact that they run on a battery not on home electricity. Just an idea.

Lotec25

[kingsack]

Car fuel pumps have a very low flow rate. Can you say < 5 gph.

[Lotec25]

i dont know what kind of fuel pump you are thinking of. Maybe a stock Pump. I am talking about a high performance one like this. http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=112602&prmenbr=361 that is 120 gallons per hour and that is a small one. Here is a bigger one
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=2381&prmenbr=361


Lotec25

[JWB]

The thing is if they do turn out to work well. They are very expensive:mad:

[kingsack]

Originally posted by Lotec25
i dont know what kind of fuel pump you are thinking of. Maybe a stock Pump. I am talking about a high performance one like this. http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=112602&prmenbr=361 that is 120 gallons per hour and that is a small one. Here is a bigger one
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=2381&prmenbr=361


Lotec25

Yep, I was thinking stock. Now that we are talking high performance items how about high performance racing fuel pump for a snowmobile? That should kick ass at low temps.:bounces:

[Lotec25]

I know they are expensive. But if you want to get below -50C you are going to have to get crazy. I rember a story where some trucks crossed Russia in the middle of winter and they never had a problem with there fuel. I just thought this up one night while i was trying to go to bed. It just makes since just have to make it work now. I am looking for a cheap A/C unit but for some reason Souther California does not have them used. They got them at Home Depot for 100 dollars i just got to pick it up.

Lotec25

[Calab]

Originally posted by OCme
Ok, I'm hoping lay to rest all the questions I have been getting concerning Eheim pumps 1046,1048,1050, & 1060...

thanks for passing along that information. it's nice to hear an eheim rep say what the pumps will and will not do.

[kommando]

Im getting my mates pump from his washing machine :)

[OCme]

One key thing to remember is that none of these pumps will move ice, or slush very well and even small pieces of ice solids can damage a pump. Keep your liquid fluid consistency, and if the if the elastomer is rated for the temperature you are chilling to the pump should work fine. Also, do not use acetone in your cooling loop with any pump that uses rubber o-rings as it will surely damage it.

[KennethChong]

Originally posted by OCme
One key thing to remember is that none of these pumps will move ice, or slush very well and even small pieces of ice solids can damage a pump. Keep your liquid fluid consistency, and if the if the elastomer is rated for the temperature you are chilling to the pump should work fine. Also, do not use acetone in your cooling loop with any pump that uses rubber o-rings as it will surely damage it.

yes, that is very true. Personaly, i didnt have a problem with my eheim with -40-45 water, but if you look on e-bay, you can usualy find some all metal pumps, that are mighty impressive.

[Gary Lloyd]

A couple things to keep in mind:

The freeze point is not the same as the slush point.

A centrifugal pump has a pressure drop at the eye of the impellor, which momentarily drops the liquid temperature.

For these reasons, the freeze point of your mixture must be well below the average liquid temperature, or the pump will slush (plug) and/or freeze (break).

[Calab]

Originally posted by OCme
Ok, I'm hoping lay to rest all the questions I have been getting concerning Eheim pumps 1046,1048,1050, & 1060 in this one post as best I can. The elastomer or (o-ring) material used in each of these pumps is called perbunan and was developed by Bayer in the 1930's, the same company that makes aspirin. I spoke to Yannick (Nick) Miller at Ehime and he said that this elastomer was good from -40C to 120C. He said long term reliability below -40C would not be very good and would void the warranty of the pump. So if your chiller temperature is going to be -40C or less then any of these pumps should work fine and give good long term reliability. If you will be chilling colder than -40C then I would avoid using one of these pumps.

OCme, why don't we try to contact the popular manufactureres such as eheim, and see what they have to say about their product in these regards. i would be happy to contact a one or two myself to find out and post my findings.

[OCme]

Originally posted by Calab
OCme, why don't we try to contact the popular manufactureres such as eheim, and see what they have to say about their product in these regards. i would be happy to contact a one or two myself to find out and post my findings.


Any information you could provide on the ability of different pumps would be very much appreciated. The way I look at it, we are all part of a team here at XS. There is "REAL" strength in numbers.

:)

[Calab]

what manufactureres you want me to take?

[OCme]

Originally posted by Calab
what manufactureres you want me to take?

You could research one of the pumps that have been mentioned in this thread if you like such as Taco, Surflo, or Pondmaster, or pick one you think might work from the 10,000 or so that are being manufactured.

[sky]

i'va had a pump of mine freeze in my rez. had a slow windshield solvent / tap-water mixture turned all of it on and went about other things. when i returned, the pump was stuck and i immediately unpluged it. luckily it survived. so after they ice warmed and the mixture got back to its liquid state, the pump could resume work and did so easy.

btw jwb, who's that girl in your av? looks HOT :D (had to throw that in, sorry)

[JWB]

Delta Goodrem;) Yeah I actually like the idea of a car pump Lotec25. Plus if they work off a 12v car battery wouldn't we be able to mod it on to take a molex connection?

[Gary Lloyd]

These pump manufacturers (and the block manufacturers as well) better get with the program. Chillers are coming, and the temps are going to get colder. There will be cascade and autocascade chillers, too.

[JWB]

Absolutely agree it is the pump manufacturers that are holding most people back from even lower temps. Havent got a clue about cascade and autocascade chillers though:confused:

[sky]

nah i wouldn't expect cascade chillers. that would probably be over the top. it would be nice to have, but i think a lot of cooling power would go to waste that way.
for the fuel pumps. iirc berkut used an old ford fuelinjector (pump?) on of his phase change evaps. might want to look for that thread and / or ask him how he hooked it up.

[Calab]

i have had a few emails with danner mag. i asked for more specific information regarding the o-rings and and explained that the pump would be moving chilled water that could range -0c to -40c. the reply from "BillM" was impersonal...

"The pump will not be able to handle your application."


i asked him to elaborate and asked if he could point me in the direction of a Danner product that would handle the application. i get another impersonal email, but this time it was uninformed and oblivious to what i was asking.

"There aren’t any that will handle your application."


these aren't taken out of context, these are verbatim. no signature, no nothing. i was a potential customer and these are the responses i got, shameful. for this i nominate BillM for this weeks jag bag contest.

[OCme]

Originally posted by sky
for the fuel pumps. iirc berkut used an old ford fuelinjector (pump?) on of his phase change evaps. might want to look for that thread and / or ask him how he hooked it up.

Might be just what we are looking for? Any idea how cold he was chilling to?

[Blergo]

berkut used the fuel injector to controle the flow of refrigerant instead of useign a cap tube or a valve as far as i recall.

Calab the response you got was pretty rude if you ask me, next time it might be worth trying to phone them, thay might be more helpfull on the phone. i find this with a lot of companies unfortunatley.

owen

[OCme]

Originally posted by Calab
"The pump will not be able to handle your application."

"There aren’t any that will handle your application."

Try finding out what type of elastomer is being used in the pumps that you research this will be a better indicator of what the pump is capable of handling. I know members that are using these Danner Mag pumps with no problems down to -40C, which may mean that they are using a perbunan elastomer like the Ehimes. I'm beginning to get the feeling that many of the top water cooling pumps are using this elastomer, but I don't know for sure. If this is the case we need to be researching other pumps like the fuel pump sky mentioned, or the taco pump which is an all metal pump, or maybe the surflo.

[OCme]

Here is good link for elastomers and what they are capeable of:


http://www.gmt-international.com/Elastomer%20info.htm

check out silicone it's good down to -70C :D

[Calab]

Originally posted by OCme
Try finding out what type of elastomer is being used in the pumps that you research....I know members that are using these Danner Mag pumps with no problems down to -40C, which may mean that they are using a perbunan elastomer like the Ehimes. I'm beginning to get the feeling that many of the top water cooling pumps are using this elastomer, but I don't know for sure....If this is the case we need to be researching other pumps like the fuel pump sky mentioned, or the taco pump which is an all metal pump, or maybe the surflo.

i specifically asked what the material of the elastomer was. to not be so impersonal, unlike the a-hole on the receiving end, i thought i would mention the application, so they would know why i was trying to get more information.

after getting his second uninformed and useless reply, i felt compelled to rub in that Danner Supremes are being used in -30c and below environments 24/7 and next time he should have half a sense of what he is talking about.

before i decided to contact danner, i looked into the tacos as well. their site has all the pertinent information people look for when picking pumps, so i moved on to the next manufacturer i wanted to know more about.

the real problem i see with taco are they are behemoths compared to eheim and the likes. even the small pumps are a good 8 pounds and make no attempt to be compact. these are engineered for the application extremists would be using it in, but i don't think the tradeoff is worth it. but i place more of an emphasize on aesthetics over performance. no way would i have a 8 pound block of cast iron sitting in my loop. but that's just me.

[OCme]

Originally posted by Calab
the real problem i see with taco are they are behemoths compared to eheim and the likes. even the small pumps are a good 8 pounds and make no attempt to be compact. these are engineered for the application extremists would be using it in, but i don't think the tradeoff is worth it. but i place more of an emphasize on aesthetics over performance. no way would i have a 8 pound block of cast iron sitting in my loop. but that's just me.

You can keep your pretty boy pumps; if it doesn’t serve its intended purpose then what good is it? I for one would rather have a 20lb pump that would move -70C liquid than an aesthetically pleasing one that could only do -30C. Just think of the possibilities a -70C pump would open up in regard to a cascade or auto cascade chiller. I guess the question is do you want a show pony or a work horse?

[OCme]

Perhaps Taco isn't the best pump either, we are exploring new possibilities here, and there are many, many, many more that can be researched.

[Lotec25]

i dont see a problem with the taco pumps either. Yea there heavy but who cares. It's going to be set off to the side anyway. The only problem i see is the plastic on the Circulator it needs to me made out of a hard metal that will not chip if for some reason a piece of ice gets pushed threw it. Or maybe a screen over one side of the inlets to keep the ice out. I am sure there is a pump out there that will work below -50 maybe even -100 the problem is finding something that can either keep out ice or something that will push it threw. maybe increasing diamater for the hose from 1/2 inch to bigger will take care of this problem but you still have the block to contend with. A piece of ice is not going to flow threw one of the blocks.

Lotec25

[Gary Lloyd]

Aside from the surface of the evaporator itself, the most likely spot for ice formation is at the eye of the pump impellor. In other words, if ice is going to form, it will form inside the pump.

[Lotec25]

ok that makes since. So now we know one place to work on. We dont want to heat it that would just be a waste. So how do we stop it, or how do we break the ice up will the impeller break the ice without causing it alot of harm? I think we need to look at gear drivin pumps for this. If ice was to form on the inside of the pump the magnet will be the first thing to go. Ill keep working on it. I know i am finding problems and no answers yet. I am looking at it as if we need to solve the problems that could occur and then fix them that will point us in the right direction.

Lotec25

[Calab]

Originally posted by OCme
You can keep your pretty boy pumps; if it doesn’t serve its intended purpose then what good is it?

i'm doing this for fun. i'm not trying to achieve that absolute lowest possible temperature. so the pumps i am interested in do serve it's purpose.

[Gary Lloyd]

We dont want to heat it that would just be a waste.

That may in fact be the best solution. It wouldn't take much heat, just enough to warm the inlet to a safe temp.

There should be no ice formation. If there is ice, the mixture is not strong enough. And yes, ice can destroy the impellor.

[OCme]

Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
That may in fact be the best solution. It wouldn't take much heat, just enough to warm the inlet to a safe temp.

How about running a pump in a seperate bath slightly warmer than what the chiller is chilling to to keep it from freezing?

[OCme]

Food For Thought:

I was thinking, it would not be hard to mod a pump with a silicone elastomer that could do -70C. It would probably void the warranty, but if you ended up with a pump that could move colder liquid then it would defiantly be worth it. Elastomers are very inexpensive and come in many sizes. Just a thought.

[Gary Lloyd]

Both good ideas, and definitely worth considering. Voiding warranties is what OCing is all about. :D

[kingsack]

If you are runbing sub -40C then you will probably be using pure alcohol, most likely methanol or isopropanol. If that is the case then the best thing to do is use a water trap in your resevoir. This is done by inserting a smaller container in the expansion area of your resevoir and then piping air in and out. Your very cold liquid will keep this small container cold enough that any water vapor will condense out in the trap. This should keep your system slush ball free for many moons. I would include a screen of some kind in the pump inlet. A witches hat (a cone shaped screen) inserted backwards would do nicely. This will work the best if you are running your pump submerged in your resevoir.
If need be I can draw a picture easily and email it to interested individuals.

[OCme]

So far the best pump I can find for moving liquid in the -40C / -50C range seems to be a seal-less mag drive pump. This would eliminate the possibility of the elastomer failing and ruining the pump. The best elastomers are silicone or flurosilicone which I found out is good down to -73C. The best mag drive pump bearing choices are silicone carbide or ceramic.

Here is a link to just such a pump which might be the Holy-Grail to many... :worship:

http://www.pondliner.com/PondmasterPumps.htm

[OCme]

I spoke to a mechanical engineer today that knew a lot about thermal dynamics and pumps. He said that there are pumps that will move -70C fluids. He recommended that the pump be made of stainless steel, brass, or aluminum ( Aluminum @ sub zero temps is 2X stronger than steel), and the pump would need to be seal-less. So if you are building a cascade or autocascade chiller and you need an xtreme pump these are the kinds of pumps to be looking at.