View Full Version : New Project
DrunKBunny
03-14-2004, 05:30 PM
First off I just want to say hi - I have been checking out these forums on and off for about a year since I got in to overclockage and cooling.
As it is the march break and I have some excess money and nothing better to do, I have decided to invest in a new project. I have dabbled in water but I am new to extreme cooling. Since the window a/c unit converted to water chiller seems to be a nice project to try out to get in to this sort of thing, I am going to attempt to use it to cool my Barton 2500+ and 9800 Pro.
I do have a heatercore lying around from before, but I will need to get a new pump and GPU/CPU block. Most likely I will grab a MaxiJet 1200 and a DD or Swifty block.
Just a few questions to get me on my way:
1) Is there a really noticable performance difference between a Maze4, RBX, or MCW5000?
2) From what I can see, the a/c unit will cool a resevoir full of liquid that houses a submerged res and pump, which connects to a normal watercooling loop, right?
3) I chose this type of cooling because it would get me in to phase change without me having to mess around with gases much (besides tuning the level of refrigerant), will I have to ever refill it or something like that?
4) I noticed that the Kenmore models are popular here, is there any model I should be looking for or what is recommended?
Thanks, I will be leaving updates as this comes along (if I actually go through with this =).
kommando
03-14-2004, 05:39 PM
Firstly, welcome :)
1) Rbx is gay, get the maze4
2) That is correct, smaller res's are better because you don't have to cool alot of water
3) You have to refil if you break a line so be carefull
4) MMM I dno
afireinside
03-14-2004, 06:15 PM
What he said but the 3 barb jet blocks suck for chilling, the maze4 is a crap block and I heard it doesent hold and I dont know about the swiffy unless your using 3/8" tubing because the plastic 1/2" barbs they give you WILL break.
I'd get a maze3, tc4, spiral or something else thats a good block with a copper top (plexi will crack) and 2 metal barbs.
kommando
03-14-2004, 06:17 PM
The swiffy block sucks!!
DrunKBunny
03-14-2004, 06:30 PM
Something I am a bit unclear about: Dosen't the other side of the air conditioner get quite hot after you run it awhile, hence the reason the rear end of it is usually outside?
"Is there a really noticable performance difference between a Maze4, RBX, or MCW5000"
not much when using one of these -40C to -50C chillers
"From what I can see, the a/c unit will cool a reservoir full of liquid that houses a submerged res and pump, which connects to a normal watercooling loop, right?"
right you R
"I chose this type of cooling because it would get me in to phase change without me having to mess around with gases much (besides tuning the level of refrigerant), will I have to ever refill it or something like that?"
if you use a reservoir and it is sealed then replenishment shouldn't be an issue, but I would recommend a shell tube type evaporator instead.
"I noticed that the Kenmore models are popular here, is there any model I should be looking for or what is recommended?"
I would recommend that you not use a rotary compressor unless you absolutely have to cheap it. AC units while being cheap alternative to convert into a chiller are really not made for such applications. It is also very easy to kink the supply line to the evaporator as I have seen many experienced moders do. A low temperature condensing unit that is made for R404/507 would be much more dependable.
Welcome to the madness!:toast:
Chillers ROCK!
Miles_Teg
03-16-2004, 01:54 PM
Hi,
Welcome to the XS forums! Lets run over your questions once more.
"1) Is there a really noticable performance difference between a Maze4, RBX, or MCW5000?"
- I would advice to get a simple and straigtforward designed block, as you have to keep in mind the insulation job. I still use a DD Maze2, cause it's nice and square, thus easy to insulate well.
"2) From what I can see, the a/c unit will cool a resevoir full of liquid that houses a submerged res and pump, which connects to a normal watercooling loop, right?"
- Don't understand what you mean exactly by the 'res' you mentioned. Anyway, the evaporator (looks like radiator) of the A/C is being submerged in an insulated reservoir containing coolant. This coolant is being transported over to the waterblock(s) by a pump, which can also be submerged, but not neccesarely.
"3) I chose this type of cooling because it would get me in to phase change without me having to mess around with gases much (besides tuning the level of refrigerant), will I have to ever refill it or something like that?"
- Most of the times you'll be fine with the original refrigerant level. Unless you're fitting a custom evaporator (or other part), or if you accidently brake a line, you're free of charging hassle.
"4) I noticed that the Kenmore models are popular here, is there any model I should be looking for or what is recommended?"
- No clue 'bout that one, just pick the cheapest A/C you can find. All A/C compressors are more the strong enough for waterchilling.
jamaljaco
03-16-2004, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by OCme
I would recommend that you not use a rotary compressor unless you absolutely have to cheap it. AC units while being cheap alternative to convert into a chiller are really not made for such applications. It is also very easy to kink the supply line to the evaporator as I have seen many experienced moders do. A low temperature condensing unit that is made for R404/507 would be much more dependable.
Chillers ROCK! HUh?... All he has to do to make a window ac tailored to this application is tune the charge. What your suggesting he do instead is acuire a condensing unit, braize in an evap,vacuum the system ,charge the system, tune the system, this would take several hundred dollars in tools and materials . Not to mention considerable skill. How would this be much more dependable? Remember 3)" I chose this type of cooling because it would get me in to phase change without me having to mess around with gases much "
" It is also very easy to kink the supply line to the evaporator as I have seen many experienced moders do." Really??
;)
HUh?... All he has to do to make a window ac tailored to this application is tune the charge. What your suggesting he do instead is acuire a condensing unit, braize in an evap,vacuum the system ,charge the system, tune the system, this would take several hundred dollars in tools and materials . Not to mention considerable skill. How would this be much more dependable? Remember "
I knew this would raise some eye brows, especially yours my friend. I don't believe I suggested that he do it. I would recommend having it done by someone that is certified. Are you suggesting that a condensing unit made for such applications wouldn't be more dependable than a rotary type compressor??? If the charge is not tuned relatively soon using a rotary type it's life will be very short lived, and even after tuning the charge again rotary compressors are not made for this type of application. If so, they would be using them in sub 0 chillers in the hospital where I work. What I do see them using are low temperature condensing units. Have you tuned your charge yet? I have been looking for it on the chiller / AC unit sticky.
" It is also very easy to kink the supply line to the evaporator as I have seen many experienced moders do." Really??
You are very good at getting the evaporator into the reservoir Jamaljaco which you have to admit isn't all that easy a job with some units. All you have to do is kink the supply line to the evaporator one time, and the you are left with two options neither one being very cheap. Is it cheaper to do it your way... yes, about 5 to 8 times cheaper, but would it be as dependable and chill better than a low temperature condensing unit made for such applications put together by a certified professional... no.
I am working with a certified professional building a chiller using a low temperature condensing unit that will chill to -50C. When it's finished I will post pictures, tell all who built it for me, and how much it cost me to have the work done. I'm hoping to have the unit in my hands by sometime in April.
Originally posted by OCme
HUh?... All he has to do to make a window ac tailored to this application is tune the charge. What your suggesting he do instead is acuire a condensing unit, braize in an evap,vacuum the system ,charge the system, tune the system, this would take several hundred dollars in tools and materials . Not to mention considerable skill. How would this be much more dependable? Remember "
I knew this would raise some eye brows, especially yours my friend. I don't believe I suggested that he do it. I would recommend having it done by someone that is certified. Are you suggesting that a condensing unit made for such applications wouldn't be more dependable than a rotary type compressor??? If the charge is not tuned relatively soon using a rotary type it's life will be very short lived, and even after tuning the charge again rotary compressors are not made for this type of application. If so, they would be using them in sub 0 chillers in the hospital where I work. What I do see them using are low temperature condensing units. Have you tuned your charge yet? I have been looking for it on the chiller / AC unit sticky.
" It is also very easy to kink the supply line to the evaporator as I have seen many experienced moders do." Really??
You are very good at getting the evaporator into the reservoir Jamaljaco which you have to admit isn't all that easy a job with some units. All you have to do is kink the supply line to the evaporator one time, and the you are left with two options neither one being very cheap. Is it cheaper to do it your way... yes, about 5 to 8 times cheaper, but would it be as dependable and chill better than a low temperature condensing unit made for such applications put together by a certified professional... no.
the thread starter said he has some money, not $700 .
Getting an AC unit can be cheap, to free! Reservoir is $10 and methanol is also cheap. The the thread starter said he wants to get into this sort of thing, not spend tons of money and have a skilled person do it all and tell them nothing about it. I'm building one of these to learn and do stuff myself , same with jamal. for the price your talking about why build a chiller? you could get someone to build you a dual evap system or better.
have you tuned your charge either? thats our next step as a matter of fact :P
also, cuz you were so anxious to look through all of the chiller a/c thread to see if jamal has tuned his, I looked through your all your posts and it seems you have a pretty tame chiller yourself lol, so how can you tell them what to buy with zero experience?
Originally posted by OCme
I am working with a certified professional building a chiller using a low temperature condensing unit that will chill to -50C. When it's finished I will post pictures, tell all who built it for me, and how much it cost me to have the work done. I'm hoping to have the unit in my hands by sometime in April.
Why not just get a AC unit for free and tune it yourself for those temps?If your doing that you might as well get dual evap and everything!
Originally posted by Peen
Why not just get a AC unit for free and tune it yourself for those temps?
I haven't seen a AC unit chiller that can do -50C
Originally posted by Peen
for the price your talking about why build a chiller?
Chiller are more flexable in my opinion.
Chillers Rock!
Originally posted by OCme
I haven't seen a AC unit chiller that can do -50C
lol you dont think they can? lmao
Originally posted by Peen
lol you dont think they can? lmao
I'm sure your chiller will turn out well, after all, you have one of the best people on this forum helping you with it. I was only stating my opinion on yet another way of doing it.
jamaljaco
03-17-2004, 03:32 PM
Ok guys lets chill ! ocme I respect your decision to go your own rout. My response to your response to drunkbunny, came mostly from my concern about how a newcomer might become discouraged or overloaded by chosing to go with your recommendation.You made no mention of seeking a certifide professional to drunkbunny at that time, making your recommendation seem way out of place. Rather than making a recommendation like that to to someone who is a student mostly likely way younger than you or I and lacking the tools and experience and funds. I just think it might have been better to just talk of your own experiences, what has worked or not for you and the rout you chose to go as a result of your experience.
secondly. I will admit I was offended at your opinion of the rotary compressors being used for chilling. I do not share that opinion.
.
If the charge is not tuned relatively soon using a rotary type it's life will be very short lived, and even after tuning the charge again rotary compressors are not made for this type of application.
Any compressor trying to compress a liquid will be damaged, this is not limited to rotary type compressors.You sound as if you believe this is an inherent flaw in rotary compressors.
Are you suggesting that a condensing unit made for such applications wouldn't be more dependable than a rotary type compressor??? Nope , not what I ment. What I was saying was: How could a condensing unit turned into a chiller by a newbe be more dependable? Its way more work and skill, more room for error = less dependable than a window ac chiller. Also whats the compressor being rotary have to do with it ?
but would it be as dependable and chill better than a low temperature condensing unit made for such applications put together by a certified professional... no.
This is the type of belief that raised my eyebrows in your original post. you have no way of knowing this! It is simply your opinion.
I would like to ad, I am a do it yourselfer, I take great pleasure in forcing things to do what they were not ment to do or designed to do. Kinda like overclocking , I am not poor. I could afford to buy that top of the line computer and run it @ stock. I could also afford to buy a top of the line record low temp cascade to cool it .I just simply would not find any satifaction in it.
Gracious Jamaljaco, mi amigo :toast:
jamaljaco
03-17-2004, 05:20 PM
most welcome:toast:
has anyone built a cascade chiller? Dont think i've ever heard of one :confused: :cool:
afireinside
03-17-2004, 06:22 PM
Good luck finding a liquid for -80C or lower and finding a pump that wont crack into a billion pieces... :p:
water_cooler 20
03-17-2004, 06:32 PM
100% methonal mix freezes at -98C accroding to dabit's charts but i wouldn't know were to get a pump
but that would be lots of fun having a cascade water chiller:slobber:
I've been thinking of doing it but i need to find a pump that would withstand the cold and some $$$$:D
DrunKBunny
03-18-2004, 12:19 AM
Thanks for the many responses, I am looking to score an A/C and the rest of the watercooling parts quite soon, but it can be a pain to get things up here in Canada.
I am still quite curious to a response to my earlier question in post 5 - isn't the condenser end of it supposed to be hot, which is why they are usually sticking out the window? Would it not raise the ambient temps in the room?
Originally posted by DrunKBunny
isn't the condenser end of it supposed to be hot, which is why they are usually sticking out the window?
yes, the compressor 'compresses' the refrigerant vapour heating it up and pumps it under high pressure to the condenser.
Originally posted by DrunKBunny
Would it not raise the ambient temps in the room?
Yes, the heat it gives off will contribute to ambient temp in the room.
Originally posted by water_cooler 20
100% methonal mix freezes at -98C accroding to dabit's charts but i wouldn't know were to get a pump
but that would be lots of fun having a cascade water chiller:slobber:
I've been thinking of doing it but i need to find a pump that would withstand the cold and some $$$$:D
Make one of them direct die, and stick its condensor in the other chillers res. No pumps needed :P
water_cooler 20
03-18-2004, 04:08 AM
It would probably be easier to just make a heatexcahnger than to dip it in the water
and direct die evaps cost alot if u want to make a dual evap system and making a dual evap looks to be a real pain so i figure a cascade waterchiller would be easier to make and maybe cheaper:D
Gary Lloyd
03-18-2004, 05:21 AM
I would recommend that you not use a rotary compressor unless you absolutely have to cheap it. AC units while being cheap alternative to convert into a chiller are really not made for such applications.
I agree. All else being equal, a compressor that is designed for low temp will perform better at low temp than a compressor that is designed for A/C. The advantage in using an A/C compressor is that it is cheaper.
Thanks Gary! It's nice to know I have good people watching my back. ;) I was sorta worried I might have been giving people bad advice there for a minute.
that doesnt mean your right OCme. Those compressors arent usually free like you can get an AC unit for free ;) hell , if i was spending that much id just go direct die, would be hella lot better :eek:
I guess you get what you pay for... ;)
let us know how it goes. I like to consider cost of everything too :P
I like chillers for several reasons over direct die setups and her they are:
Direct die systems are more popular than chillers, because we haven't seen what a real chiller can do, yet. You lose a few degrees in the extra layer of heat exchange, but you gain a lot of advantages.
Multiple blocks, no problem. Upgrade blocks, hoses, pumps, no problem. Add more blocks, no problem. De-humidify and cool the case, no problem. Disconnect it, move it, and reconnect it, no problem.
And then there are cascade and autocascade chillers, not to mention full submersion.
CHILLERS ROCK DUDE!
Damn, I'm starting to sound like Gary... Ok I got a shrine too, but it's not as large as Jamaljaco's. I'm not worthy :p:
REDKEN
04-05-2005, 01:47 PM
Hi guys!
I found this thread by chance. It made me curious. I'm planning on getting two DD units, but I would like to know about these "cascade water chillers". I have searched but have not found anything. Could any of you link me to one?
I would like to know the temps they are getting and their pull-down time.
Thanks.
unixxx
04-05-2005, 05:47 PM
There are a whole bunch of guides here: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54659 , one of which is the following guide about building a dual cascade system: http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=618&s=1