over 40 waterblocks compared!

[saaya]

http://www.watercoolplanet.de/index.php?open=4&show=1&pagenum=1

they tested them on a heat source of 100W on a die surface of 128mm²

here are more infos and pics about the test system:
http://www.watercoolplanet.de/index.php?open=17&show=52

most important they only used a slow pump and a small rad:
eheim 1046 (300L/H)
black cube radiator with 120mm papst

the results are very interesting though, the maze 4 is on rank 41!!! :eek:

would be interesting to see them test all the blocks with a much bigger rad and a much stronger pump.

[Teus]

I know that review. it's worthless and NOT AT ALL reliable

they should have used at least a 600l/h pump

[saaya]

you think they lied about the numbers? it doesnt say anything about the performence of the blocks with a fast pump, but i trust the numbers they put up.

but its true, the pump is WAY to slow and 100W is not contemporary anymore either. my xp1700+@2.4ghz with 2.1v puts out 140W under load. 150W or 200W would be better.

they should run def more then just one test with diferent heat output and diferent pumps and rads.

100W 300L/h small rad
150W 600L/H medium rad
200W 100L/H big rad

[TheDude]

For some reason they are stuck on the old misconception that slow flow rate is better for cooling while the rest of the world has moved on to fast pumps. They just won't give it up.:shrug:

[saaya]

no, they dont think its better, they just say 300L/h is enough.... while it may be enough for keeping the cpu at a reasonable temp it doesnt show the cpu blocks full performence. how good a block can make use of more waterflow makes or breaks it.

[Jabo]

I think these test results are very good in showing performance of great number of different blocks with given testbed setup. Nothing more nothing less.
Ppl shouting around that it is worthelss are missing the point here...
One may not find it uselful for one's purposes since. Again, it ONLY shows performance of tested blocks wtih given h'ware, nothing more nothing less.
For peeps using 1048 type of little pumping fellas it's a godsend imho :)

P.s. there were rumours about changing test bed mid way testing which if proven truth would invelidate the whole exercise... it'd have to be split in two sections, beforre change and after to keep making any sense :(

[TheDude]

saaya,

I have actually seen some people post the old twisted logic that slower gives the heat more time to dissipate theory. That's what I was reffering to, but yeah I have seen them use the " faster not needed" excuse too. The 1st one is really bad and just shows a complete lack of any understanding.

[8-ball]

There is an interesting thread over at procooling which touches on this subject.

It is geared more towards flow rate in radiators, but much of what is discussed can be applied both ways.

Grab a cup of coffee. It's a big one!! (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6385)

enjoy

8-ball

[TheDude]

Thanks, I will read it.

[skate2snow]

I think the MAZE4 was ranked 41 coze the design needs a fast pump coze it have a long time in the block, so at the end the water is the same temp as the block

[AngryAlpaca]

It isn't consistent (I have heard of them changing the heating element :eek:) and it uses a setup style that is only found in Europe. In NA and the UK, we use massive pumps, and MUCH larger than 1/4" (ID or OD? I don't know) tubing.

[Cathar]

Originally posted by 8-ball
There is an interesting thread over at procooling which touches on this subject.

It is geared more towards flow rate in radiators, but much of what is discussed can be applied both ways.

Grab a cup of coffee. It's a big one!! (http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6385)

enjoy

8-ball

There's more info very specific to the WCP testbed and its results which is discussed here:

http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=8005

Basically the thread addresses various testbed anomalies, and then goes into some theory.

Even as a low-flow test-bed, the test procedure used leaves a lot to be desired, and there are some pretty anomalous results at WCP that do not agree with more strictly controlled testing by others.

[saaya]

so its probably BS?

added those two threads to favourites and will read them later.

cathar, i guess your annoyed about people asking you this, but when will you start working on a new block again? :D

[TheDude]

Yeah...added to my favorites too...thanks.
I have wondered about the question saaya asked too. I guess everyone has. How much more room for improvement is there though? At least from a design standpoint of just the block. Quite honestly, I can't imagine there is any room for design improvement on the block and you will have to look elsewhere or combine various small tweaks of other components for better performance?
Are there actually design changes that you have been wanting to make cathar? :confused:

[AngryAlpaca]

He's making the Cascade XXX, and it sounds like all five of those will kick a lot of ass. Search Pro/Forums for more details...

Edit: It may have sounded like there would be five types of it. I meant there would be five total.

[TheDude]

Are you serious? Why only 5?
Are they made from lunar rocks collected in 1969 moon landing?

[Cathar]

Originally posted by TheDude
Are you serious? Why only 5?
Are they made from lunar rocks collected in 1969 moon landing?

The middle plate and base-plate together accounted for about 85% of what one was paying for with a regular Cascade, with 90% of that being the cost of the machine time. i.e. the machine time costs for the middle/base plate represents about 75% of the total cost of a copper Cascade.

The middle and base-plates for the XXX will each have about 3x the machine time involved, for a total of around 3hrs of machine time, as well as super-high quality machine lapping, as well as the base-plate made out of 99.998% pure silver. All up, around the $350US mark or so for each as a rough prediction, and around $260US each for each of the two copper-based prototypes. That's also not including the cost of the CNC programming. i.e. basically 2 long days of workshop time to make 7 blocks.

I can't imagine more than 5 people wanting one (I keep two silvers).

[nikhsub1]

Originally posted by Cathar

I can't imagine more than 5 people wanting one (I keep two silvers).
<-------- That guy wants one for sure... but then, you already know that!

[TheDude]

Wow....speechless here!
Lots of people will want one, just not many will actually spend the money for one. It's going to be an historical work of art!
Will you still make them on a per order basis after the original 5 if there is an interest?
Is $350 US the total cost for a silver one?
thanks ;)

[kommando]

Oh my God cathar i'd be alot of green a nice kickass block!!

[TheDude]

I saw a pic of the silver one he already made. It's the most beautiful block I have ever seen in my life! Breath taking!

[saaya]

where can i see it?

cathar, have you done sme research regarding cermarics already? there are some ceramics that have great termal properties.

[Jabo]

Estimated Time of Arrival Cathar?
When can we expect to see it published?

[TheDude]

saaya,

The pic is in this forum somewhere, I'll look for it and post a link unless someone else knows without searching? I'm talking about the one of the silver base block.

[Jabo]

Originally posted by saaya
where can i see it?

cathar, have you done sme research regarding cermarics already? there are some ceramics that have great termal properties.

Check out this baby (http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/nn0123v.pdf)

I couldn't stop slobbering for days :D

[nikhsub1]

I dont have the nickel barbs but....

http://www.netbetty.com/H20/silvercascade/block.jpg

http://www.netbetty.com/H20/silvercascade/baseside.jpg

And installed:

http://www.netbetty.com/H20/cube/outside/mobo.jpg

[Teus]

Originally posted by Jabo
Check out this baby (http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/nn0123v.pdf)

I couldn't stop slobbering for days :D
oooh yeah! :smileysex

[xgman]

I sure wish Cathar would go back into full production mode.

[Nebulous]

Dam! 90% of those blocks are unknown in the US anyways. I also think they based their ratings on a weakass pump. Least they could've used was a 1250 and a larger rad . They're full-o-crap :rolleyes:

Yo nikhsub, I luv that machine! :toast:

[Cathar]

Originally posted by saaya
where can i see it?


2-barb Cascade SS

http://www.employees.org/~slf/ss/fss2.jpg

3-barb Cascade SS

http://www.employees.org/~slf/ss/3ss1.jpg

The XXX will externally look much the same as the 3-barb SS.
Internally it packs 149 jet/cup pairs into about the same area as a US 5c piece (i.e. a nickel). Grab a nickel, take a look at it, and imagine fitting 149 jets in there, each individually machined and carved out of a single piece of polycarbonate.

[Nebulous]

:eek: *drools* :hehe:

[TheDude]

Those are the pics...thanks for reposting them...beautiful!
:toast:

[Cathar]

Originally posted by TheDude
Those are the pics...thanks for reposting them...

Actually this is my favorite picture, mainly because it took about 3 hours of work to achieve the finish on the two bases.

http://www.employees.org/~slf/images/mirrors.jpg

[saaya]

thx cathar :toast: the 3 barb one looks nice! so did you plan to use cermaics or carbon-foam? there is a diamond foam a guy from austria made 2 blocks with. the diamond foam is extremely expensive (1000$+ for a 40x40x5mm plate iirc :eek: )

he got them for free though. the stuff transfairs heat around 50% better than copper! im sure theres some cheaper ceramic wich has almost the same heat transfair capabilities though.

[Teus]

cathar, how do you get that finish on the blocks?

[Jabo]

Hmmm perfect mirror finish embodied :)

I wonder what would be the price of one block if produced en masse?

[TheDude]

Wow Cathar....I haven't seen that one before! Sweet!
My block is still working hard and cooling great!
I'd love to have one of those new silver and nickel ones!
:D

[Cathar]

Originally posted by saaya
so did you plan to use cermaics or carbon-foam? there is a diamond foam a guy from austria made 2 blocks with. the diamond foam is extremely expensive (1000$+ for a 40x40x5mm plate iirc :eek: )

he got them for free though. the stuff transfairs heat around 50% better than copper! im sure theres some cheaper ceramic wich has almost the same heat transfair capabilities though.

No, no plan to use ceramics, etc.

Here's why:

Predicted thermal resistance of Cascade design due to material used:

Copper, C110 (380W/m-K): 0.028
Silver, Pure (420W/m-K): 0.025
Diamond/Carbon Ceramic (600W/m-K): 0.018

At ~40% better thermal conductivity than silver, then we're talking about a total C/W difference of around 0.007 for a design like the Cascade, or about a 0.7C difference on a fairly hot bare-die CPU under load. The cost of the material doesn't really justify the gain. Seriously, I'd just buy a Prometia instead. At least for silver, it looks good. Anything more than ~$100US on materials is basically pointless given the alternatives for superior cooling.

The XXX is just an experiment - just to see really how far waterblocks can go, especially for overclocking. I've already shown that the Cascade SS can be used to match a Vapo PE for overclocking. I'm still of the firm belief that adequate CPU hot-spot management is the trick to enabling water-cooling, which seems like it wouldn't have a hope in heck of competing with phase-change, actually holding its own very well and especially under very high heat loads.

[saaya]

well you dont need an entire base of that cermamic, a plate of 4 times the size of the core would be enough and from what ive seen so far it doesnt seem to be hard to implement the ceramic into a copper base plate.

do you have images of the hot spots of a cpu? would be interesting to see. i wonder if most of the heat is produced in the middle of the core or on some edges. i think intel released a set of images showing the hot spots of nw compared to prescott.

[Jabo]

Ooopsie, forgot to praise it properly ;)

Seriuosly, Cathar, your love for the thing shows here in it's full glory (no sarcasm here, really admire outstanding workmanshipd and sleek design)

[EnJoY]

Cathar, I don't think I've ever been more impressed by anything I've ever seen before. Truly amazing...and I want one....now. :D

Btw, you have a pm. Thanks.