Questions about insultion.

[limpkorn]

Hello Xtreme Community,

I've been a member for a while but first time I venture in to a project of this type and although I've searched threads I don't have solid answers for my questions. I'm hoping some experienced members can help me get this figured out.

I recently got my hands on a small Water/Juice Chiller machine that has a stainless steel evaporator already on it. I want to run my water loop through this chiller and see how low I can get the temperatures.

This would be a 24/7 setup I Know I have to insulate the lines and water block, but the question is should I be using Vaseline along with art eraser and neoprene insulation on and around the socket of the motherboard as well as the backside? On the Vaseline I wonder if I should be putting it in to the 2011 socket itself and how would I go about this without damaging the pins or would adding it around the socket suffice? Also since this would be a 24/7 machine will the Vaseline be good for long term or is this usually a solution for DICE and LN2?

I live in So. California the humidity is usually around 40-60% would just using the art eraser and neoprene suffice or would any of you advice on a different method?

I'll keep searching the posts here on the forum, but there is hardly any activity on the chilled liquid cooling section so I hope you all don't mind me asking questions that have probably been asked before.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[limpkorn]

What do you guys think about liquid tape would it be a good alternative?

[bartx]

If you keep liquid above 8-10C (depend on humidity) you don't need any insulation.

[limpkorn]

Yeah, but I didn't want to risk it and I was hoping to get down to about 2C.

Dewpoint can get quite high here at times it is currently at 13C

[Stewie007]

Yeah, but I didn't want to risk it and I was hoping to get down to about 2C.

Dewpoint can get quite high here at times it is currently at 13C

8C is pretty cold. It is not advisable to run electrical equipment under chill with that temp. Dew Points change, and I wouldn't want to be caught off guard.

I'll try to get on later tonight and go more in depth.... but right now I'm at work... :p:

[josh1980]

2C is getting close to freezing water. I'd be concerned that you might have ice crystals that start developing in the water. Yes, it does happen before you hit 0C. But there are various factors that affect it.

I will warn you that ice crystals suspended in the water will tear up your pump's impeller.

[Stewie007]

He will have to run a somewhat dilute glycol solution. I would recommend Propylene Glycol just because of its low toxicity and better heat transfer capabilities than ethylene.

20% or higher glycol in water. 20% is still pretty close to water's Cp. Its a little better than ethylene. ~.96 vs ~.91 You can get it at Tractor Supply, but you'll need to use a corrosion inhibitor with it. If your loop uses all copper its probably not necessary; but it also retards the rate of the breakdown of the glycol. Not like it happens over night, but still....

As far as insulation goes, it depends on your temps and typical humidity inside. Given your temperatures, the water tubes will probably be fine with 3/8" wall insulation. Make sure you size it appropriately for the outside diameter of your tubing. For 0C and above applications with <50% RH, you don't need to use thick walls.

For socket insulation, I am less experienced. Although, eraser material is somewhat dense compared to insulation materials and will transmit heat moreso than the insulation. Though, its less messy than trying to use a foam insulation (polyurethane), I don't like the idea of using it for a 24/7 rig. I'm sure people have, I just don't like the idea.

Dielectric grease is what I would use for any gap coverage in your socket. Using any type of petroleum grease is not a good idea on silicone or plastics. Dielectric grease is designed to protect electrical connections from things like moisture; that is why you use it on your spark plug wire connections and coils in your car; not to mention battery connections. It prevents corrosion of the surfaces as well. Petroleum makes a snack out of it in the long term. There's no excuse not to use D.G. in my book.

I would personally favor the usage of foam insulation at the lowest level. Then I'd be using the Expanded Elastomeric insulation sheets to cover the rest. I'd use thicker wall for the pads just to be save and use a proper adhesive to join the layers. I would build a little "bowl of sorts and fill it well with the P.U. foam. There are different grades of the stuff. It has excellent insulation properties. You just have to make sure you fill all gaps.

That's just one way to do it though. I am sure others have different ideas.

However, I would consider Dielectric Grease MANDATORY. I would not use less than 3/8" wall insulation on the tubing. Finally, on the back side of the motherboard, an insulation pad with a low power pad heater just for safety. It isn't really necessary to use a heater if you have insulated well and don't get too cold, but its good insurance.

[limpkorn]

He will have to run a somewhat dilute glycol solution. I would recommend Propylene Glycol just because of its low toxicity and better heat transfer capabilities than ethylene.

20% or higher glycol in water. 20% is still pretty close to water's Cp. Its a little better than ethylene. ~.96 vs ~.91 You can get it at Tractor Supply, but you'll need to use a corrosion inhibitor with it. If your loop uses all copper its probably not necessary; but it also retards the rate of the breakdown of the glycol. Not like it happens over night, but still....

As far as insulation goes, it depends on your temps and typical humidity inside. Given your temperatures, the water tubes will probably be fine with 3/8" wall insulation. Make sure you size it appropriately for the outside diameter of your tubing. For 0C and above applications with <50% RH, you don't need to use thick walls.

For socket insulation, I am less experienced. Although, eraser material is somewhat dense compared to insulation materials and will transmit heat moreso than the insulation. Though, its less messy than trying to use a foam insulation (polyurethane), I don't like the idea of using it for a 24/7 rig. I'm sure people have, I just don't like the idea.

Dielectric grease is what I would use for any gap coverage in your socket. Using any type of petroleum grease is not a good idea on silicone or plastics. Dielectric grease is designed to protect electrical connections from things like moisture; that is why you use it on your spark plug wire connections and coils in your car; not to mention battery connections. It prevents corrosion of the surfaces as well. Petroleum makes a snack out of it in the long term. There's no excuse not to use D.G. in my book.

I would personally favor the usage of foam insulation at the lowest level. Then I'd be using the Expanded Elastomeric insulation sheets to cover the rest. I'd use thicker wall for the pads just to be save and use a proper adhesive to join the layers. I would build a little "bowl of sorts and fill it well with the P.U. foam. There are different grades of the stuff. It has excellent insulation properties. You just have to make sure you fill all gaps.

That's just one way to do it though. I am sure others have different ideas.

However, I would consider Dielectric Grease MANDATORY. I would not use less than 3/8" wall insulation on the tubing. Finally, on the back side of the motherboard, an insulation pad with a low power pad heater just for safety. It isn't really necessary to use a heater if you have insulated well and don't get too cold, but its good insurance.

Stewie, awesome stuff thank you bro! This is exactly the information I was looking for.

As far as adding glycol to the water I was ahead of you. I actually went down to home depot and picked up a bottle of propylene glycol at was a :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: to find by the way since nobody knew what the heck that was let alone where it was in the store.

Yeah I was thinking about 20% glycol myself, glad to hear I was on the right track.

Honestly I have no idea how low the temps will get. I'll try to provide more information as I work on it more that way more experienced members can shed some light.

What I'm working on is a old juicer type unit with a stainless steel water evaporator. Here is a picture the only one I have at the moment, but the evap is on the right there is very well constructed even though is an older machine. I ran everything before I started taking it apart and recovering the refrigerant before cutting the copper lines and everything was running well.

http://img10.imagefra.me/i57i/lordofwar/xd1m_3e6_uc5hn.jpg (http://i.imagefra.me/b15jp3de)

I know it looks dirty I'll be taking everything apart and cleaning it thoroughly before I start brazing anything back together.

The unit looked similar to this one before I started taking it apart.

http://img15.imagefra.me/i57i/lordofwar/r207_464_uc5hn.jpg (http://i.imagefra.me/19ejp3df)

Since I will be mixing copper with the stainless steel what corrosion inhibitor do you recommend I use?

The unit has a Danfoss 1/4 HP compressor based on my findings and calculations this compressor should be enough for 186 Watts right I'm not sure if I'm thinking about this in the right way since I'll be chilling the water in to a small reservoir and then running the chilled water loop in to the waterblock.

Now on the subject of insulating the actual motherboard. I picked up some liquid tape I was going to cover the motherboard socket area front and back with it and then use 10mm neoprene around the socket. Do you suggest I go with dielectric grease and neoprene instead on both front and back? have you ever used the liquid tape stuff? I would much rather go with what works best and since I have zero experience on the subject I'm really interested to hear what you have to say.

Thanks so much again for all the great info.

[Stewie007]

I would first get it up and running and see how far down you can get it to pull before installing the chilled loop to the computer.

That way you can have a base line.

[limpkorn]

Yep, that's the plan. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again Stewie.

[limpkorn]

OK I got the water chiller up and running. I have started to insulate the board as well I will take pictures and post later. I decided to go with liquid tape and some armaflex type material to layer on the waterblock and the cpu socket area. The glycol solution is only getting down to about 27F to 28F so I think my decision on insulation is good enough.

I also have a lot of insulating to do on the water chiller itself which I will be working on soon and will update the thread later.

Here is a video of the chiller up and running not on the board yet, but going through the waterblock.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DV3pgDveYQ

[bds71]

go here (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?224911-Xtreme-Phase-Change-Insulation-Guide) for good information on insulation (it's a sticky in the vapor phase change section of the cooling sub-forums). lots of good information (that also pertains to chillers) if you want to go sub-ambient or sub-zero!!

[limpkorn]

I placed an order for some Rubber Eraser. I think I'm definitely going to go with that. I went ahead and insulated the waterblock and tubing already.

Check it out!

http://img10.imagefra.me/i599/lordofwar/cyht_613_uc5hn.jpg (http://i.imagefra.me/561jrc28)

[limpkorn]

So I'm going with kneaded rubber eraser, should I be adding some in the middle of the socket where the caps are as well or should I be using strictly dielectric grease for that area?