Which compressor

[naTTen]

I wanna build myself a nice cooling system. I have no experience with vapor cooling att all but i understand what is does and i know which parts i need(i think)

I have checked out http://www.danfoss.com/Compressors/ and i have decided to use the R404A TC4Lwich seems to be a good compressor.

But i dont know which coolant that i should use, i can´t use freon because its illegal to use where i live. So which one??

And then i need a condesator or whatever its called. but can i take just anyone or does it have to hav a certain tube diameter and lenght or inner volume???

And now tho the difficult part( at least what i have heard) the capillary tube. How long, which inner diameter??

Do i need a reciver ? and do i need a capillary tube if i use a reciver? and if I need a reciver how big??

And then the evaporator. well, that thing i already know how i should bulid it.

Is it anything i have forgot??
Its 3 lines from the R4004A compressor and i wonder what are the third line for, one is the discharge line, and the other is the line from the evaporator.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

But i dont know which coolant that i should use, i can´t use freon because its illegal to use where i live. So which one??


I'd use propane as the refrigerant.. widely available and cheap.. It's what I use..


And then i need a condesator or whatever its called. but can i take just anyone or does it have to hav a certain tube diameter and lenght or inner volume???

Condensor.. the thing which takes the heat off of the freshly compressoed refrigerant turning it from a gas to a liquid..

I'd use a condensor which has 1/4" ID copper tubing or 3/8" ID copper tubing. You want the condensor to atleast be twice as large as your evaporator and have as much surface area as possible. You could pick one up out of a window AC unit.. or dehumidifer.


And now tho the difficult part( at least what i have heard) the capillary tube. How long, which inner diameter??

The cap tube is something to be figured out after you pick your evaporator design and length, and your condensor.. If you can post more information on your compressor..

You want the smallest ID cap tube you can find.. I use a .028 cap tube.. but you can pick up .026.. and even smaller.. But it gets expensive.. .028 will be fine for you. You can get the cap tube by rolls of 10feet.. so just find the smallest you can.. and get it.. You can figure the size out later.. either way 10feet is plenty to screw around with.. You'll end up using around 4ft or less..


Do i need a reciver ? and do i need a capillary tube if i use a reciver? and if I need a reciver how big??

You don't use a receiver unless you are using a TEV (Thermal Expansion Valve).. and yes you still need cap tube then.. cap tube is always used.



Its 3 lines from the R4004A compressor and i wonder what are the third line for, one is the discharge line, and the other is the line from the evaporator.


1 is the high side line.. or discharge line.. the other is the low side line.. or suction line.. and the third one is a factory fill line.. which you can fill the system through. I wouldn't recommend using the factory fill line. Just close it.. and when you build your system put an access port on your high side and low side line.. You will fill the system through the low side access port. If you use propane you need to fill the system through the low side with liquid propane (by turning the tank upside down so only liquid comes out).

[naTTen]

Thanks so much.

But.. is´nt propane dangerous to work with?

Here is the PDF file for the R4004A compressor (http://www.danfoss.com/Compressors/pdf/datasheets/r404a_220v_50_60hz/t-series/TL4CL_R404A-R507_220V_50Hz_01-00_Cf52a102.pdf) , it looks quite nice, and it will probably give me some nice temps too

[dmitriyaz]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
You don't use a receiver unless you are using a TEV (Thermal Expansion Valve).. and yes you still need cap tube then.. cap tube is always used.

hmm...
are you sure? i thought TEV recplaces captube (like so: )
http://oberon.ark.com/~airekool/txv.gif

[aenigma]

No he meant you still need a cap tube even if you use a receiver.

[dmitriyaz]

i see...never mind :am:

[|PuNiSh3R|]

No, propane isn't dangerous to work with.. just work with it in a well ventillated room.. or even outside.. if your system springs a leak the PSI will be pushing the propane out.. so if a spark happens.. then the propane will ignite and be shooting out of the hole in your system like a flame.. Propane won't blow up unless it's pooled in one area.. just sitting there.. like say if you got a gas leak on your stove.. the gas would have to leak for sometime before enough of it gathered together to cause an explosion..

Either way the worst thing that will happen.. is if you do like me.. and forget propane is in your system and start to unsolder a line.. lol.. all that happens is you get a big flame shooting from the leak.. you just blow it out.. or use a fire extiguisher.. or whatever.. Propane isn't flammable in the system either.. it needs 20% oxygen to become flammable.. there shouldn't be any oxygen in your system... 100% propane.

Just be careful and use common sense with working with it.. over time you'll become used to working with it and not afraid of it.

[naTTen]

what temps should i get with propane with the R404A unit if i build avery thing right??

-45 C like it says it the manual or??

[|PuNiSh3R|]

-42F is the boiling (lowest point of propane at 0PSI)...

[naTTen]

ok that is -41 C then, but how low will i get then.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

You are talking about doing on-die cooling? Probably -15C.. depending on the quality of your compressor and how good your condensor can remove heat.

[k3rb3r0s]

i was planning on doing something similar, BUT: i am a complete n00b at this ... :D
the only thing i ever build was my own watercooling, but that doesn't involve such complicated machinery.
but i can get fridge/freezer parts for free. do u think it is possible (if well executed) even for me to build such a thing? (Without killing myself that is:P)
do u have interesting links? guides?

Greetz

[|PuNiSh3R|]

You won't kill yourself.. Unless you are a complete dunce..

I don't know of any guides online.. other then forum threads.. YOu'd have to sift through endless numbers of pages .. and most of it is people asking more technical questions.. no one ever goes over the basics of it from beginning to end.

[k3rb3r0s]

The killing part was just a joke ;)

Thx for the info!


Greetz

[BigBadger]

Originally posted by naTTen
Thanks so much.

But.. is´nt propane dangerous to work with?

Here is the PDF file for the R4004A compressor (http://www.danfoss.com/Compressors/pdf/datasheets/r404a_220v_50_60hz/t-series/TL4CL_R404A-R507_220V_50Hz_01-00_Cf52a102.pdf) , it looks quite nice, and it will probably give me some nice temps too

two things....

1st, it's a R404A compressor so why not use R404A refrigerant? ok propane is cheaper but r404A is better (-47C evap temp).

2nd, the compressor is really too small for serious cooling. It's only 1/5hp and is rated to move 65W @ -40C...most modern cpu's put out way more than 65W.

I'm building my syatem around a 1/2hp compressor (170W @ -40C) if that is any sort of guide.

[dmitriyaz]

Badger,
if i am not mistaken, propane works best in the r12 compressors, since the evaporation temperature at almost all pressures is very similar, as well as other properties...
can you confirm that?
aslo, i haven't seen compressors/condensing units designed for propane specifically, at least not in the US, do they even make those?

[naTTen]

Originally posted by BigBadger


two things....

1st, it's a R404A compressor so why not use R404A refrigerant? ok propane is cheaper but r404A is better (-47C evap temp).

2nd, the compressor is really too small for serious cooling. It's only 1/5hp and is rated to move 65W @ -40C...most modern cpu's put out way more than 65W.

I'm building my syatem around a 1/2hp compressor (170W @ -40C) if that is any sort of guide.

ok i will find some else compressor unit then. How do i tranform the motor watt to hp, and which capacity is it that is correct, the CECOMAF or the ASHRAE

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Um.. Watts to HP mean nothing.. You could have a compressor from 5 years ago that takes 500w and is 1/2HP.. and You could have a brand new compressor made this year that takes 300w and is 1/2HP.. some don't rely on watts to tell you much..

I believe ASHRAE.. but I have no clue really what they even stand for..

[dmitriyaz]

punisher is right,
how much energy they can take and how much they consume has no direct relationship.
it depends on the refrigirant and temperature at which you want it to keep your "cold side", even within the same compressor.
but, just for the record, 1hp = 750w :)

[BigBadger]

|PuNiSh3R|
Hate to contredict but Watts can be directly converted into hp. There are 745.6 W in one hp. Of course watts of electricity consumed can't be directly related to hp output because the compressor is not 100% efficient

As for CECOMAF and ASHRAE, CECOMAF is the European measurement and the ASHRAE is American.

[aenigma]

Originally posted by BigBadger
|PuNiSh3R|
Hate to contredict but Watts can be directly converted into hp. There are 745.6 W in one hp. Of course watts of electricity consumed can't be directly related to hp output because the compressor is not 100% efficient

As for CECOMAF and ASHRAE, CECOMAF is the European measurement and the ASHRAE is American.

They cant be converted into the actual HP of the compressor.I think that may have been what your saying,but I dont really know.

Just because your old compressor draws 745.6 watts does NOT make it a 1hp compressor.You can measure by BTU's of cooling,since that is output of the compressor.

I forgot who,but someone was swearing his dehumidifier was 1hp just because it drew around 700 watts.It is only a 65 pint per 24 hours dehumidifier,those are about 1/4hp.
So that means it is able to move 12000 btu's of heat?I dont think so.Unless it is a super dehumidifer :rolleyes:

The only way of measuring power is either if the manufacture rates its HP,or by BTU's of cooling/watts of cooling.Not by power consumption.

I actually have a 1hp compressor,but it probably draws well over 1000 watts.Unfortunately I dont have many ratings on the compressor,so I dont know what it draws.

[BigBadger]

Yes, my compressor has a refrigeration capacity of 355W (just under 1/2hp) but draws 523W (240V x 2.18A).......so I guess a 1hp compressor would pull about 1KW of electricity.

[aenigma]

Originally posted by BigBadger
Yes, my compressor has a refrigeration capacity of 355W (just under 1/2hp) but draws 523W (240V x 2.18A).......so I guess a 1hp compressor would pull about 1KW of electricity.

Yeah basically,it all depends on the compressor and how efficient they are.
Hmmmm only 355w of cooling....
I have a 1/2hp a/c,5000btu and that is like 1400 watts of cooling.
But that is also with an evap temp of around 0c vs. -40c.
So your compressor would probably move 5000btu's at 0c also :)

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Do you mean 750w of cooling power? or 750w of electric?

And I'm sorry.. But I don't believe that you can pick up a compressor and say it's 1/2HP or 1HP just because it says it draws 500w of electric.. that means nothing...

[aenigma]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
Do you mean 750w of cooling power? or 750w of electric?

And I'm sorry.. But I don't believe that you can pick up a compressor and say it's 1/2HP or 1HP just because it says it draws 500w of electric.. that means nothing...

Exactly,that is just power draw,doesnt mean a thing.

[bowman1964]

ok the only way to measure to power of a compressor is in hp.
watts drawn mean nothing.if i take a 20 year old compressor with a unefficient internal design.that draws 200 watts to opperate underload.may only pump as much freon as a new one rated at a 150 watt draw. you can go by output wattage or btu but even that can get confusing.you you compare btu's or watt's of out put allways make sure you get what operating conditions the ratting is measured at.one compressure ratted at 150 watts output at -20c may only put out 75 watts at -40c..so allways compair apples to apples.
and all the compresser is doing is pumping liguid under load.so a 1/4 hp rated compressor for r12 may only rate at 1/5 hp for r22 because of the differance in the fluid they pump.r22 is a little harder to pump.one more thing a 150 watt output compressor say for r12 will rate about 200 watt output for r22,same compressor just differant freon used in test. because r12 is less effecient than r22.need to rate compressors by the manufactures chart..
here is some good places to look at that.for tecumseh
http://www.tpc-nacg.com/techdocs.htm

[aenigma]

Originally posted by bowman1964
ok the only way to measure to power of a compressor is in hp.
watts drawn mean nothing.if i take a 20 year old compressor with a unefficient internal design.that draws 200 watts to opperate underload.may only pump as much freon as a new one rated at a 150 watt draw. you can go by output wattage or btu but even that can get confusing.you you compare btu's or watt's of out put allways make sure you get what operating conditions the ratting is measured at.one compressure ratted at 150 watts output at -20c may only put out 75 watts at -40c..so allways compair apples to apples.
and all the compresser is doing is pumping liguid under load.so a 1/4 hp rated compressor for r12 may only rate at 1/5 hp for r22 because of the differance in the fluid they pump.r22 is a little harder to pump.one more thing a 150 watt output compressor say for r12 will rate about 200 watt output for r22,same compressor just differant freon used in test. because r12 is less effecient than r22.need to rate compressors by the manufactures chart..
here is some good places to look at that.for tecumseh
http://www.tpc-nacg.com/techdocs.htm

EXACTLY!

For instance a 5200btu a/c moves 5200btu's of heat at about 32f.At say -20f it may only move 1000-2000btu.Alot of varibles determine load handling.Just get a big freakin compressor and your problem is solved ;)

[Player0]

Lots of good information here as well. I'm a complete noobie to all of this stuff, but I'm starting to learn more. My next cooling system will definately be a compressor system.

I'm looking over at danafloss, and their little condensing unit prebuilt kits all use R290 which is propane, but many of these systems are using R404a compressors from the other pages in their catalog. Funny that.

Honestly, being a noobie, if I put together a system myself, I'd be scared as hell to use propane. Not that inhaling refridgerant is much better for you. I just don't want any sort of flame thrower ;)

What sort of compressor/chillant does say the Prometia use? With good results like that, I'd certainly like to duplicate it, and try to save half the cost.

But, I know very LITTLE about puting a system together. Half of this thread is greek to me, and no one does seem to have a do-it yourself guide that gets down to basics. Sometimes the basics are the hardest part to grasp :)

The part that still makes to seem this whole idea impossible is the evaporator. I certainly dont have milling equipment. Does anyone make evap blocks, or can you purchase ones from like Prometia/VapoChill?

What other equipment would be needed to put this stuff together? Any good links around you guys could share?

[dmitriyaz]

a quick question to the gurus here:
which is considered a good, trusted brand in compressors/condensing units?
i know Tecumseh and Danfoss are, anything else?
thanks.

[bowman1964]

well i just bought a new compressor this week.got a copeland brand/which is a good industrial brand compressor.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Player0.. it's not danafloss.. it's danfoss.. heh.. Just use a waterblock like a maze2 or a spiral with copper top as the evaporator.. or you could build a water chiller.. that's up to u..

[Player0]

Oh huh. I didnt know you could use any type of block...thought the design needed to be special.

[bowman1964]

just depends on how cold you want to go.i have used small water blocks and works great untill you put a heat load on it. and it do'nt do so well.I didnt make 2 custom blocks and spend countless hours on a cnc if i can just buy a std water block.i have the first maze one.the second maze 2. a spri@l block and about 3 others i cannt even remember who and when i got them from.i have been there and done that.might work for some but i havent had any luck yet.now i have seen 1 or 2 blocks floating around the web that might work fine.some of the maze designs with lots of small channels.you need lots and lots of small channels.freon is not like water where you need a 3/8 stream of fuild moving along.needs small channels and lots of lenght to give the freon time enough to boil off inside the block .any freon that leaves the block as a liquid is a waste of refriderant.so you have to keep it inside the block as long as you can.that means a long and twisted channel.so just any water block will not do.

[Player0]

Maybe you should start marketing them :)

[bowman1964]

Player0 Maybe you should start marketing them
well to be honest takes me over 8 hours on a cnc . the last one i made.i dont think it is cost efective yet.but i am working on a improved design so i am making a new one for the new system i am making.after i get it up and running i will start testing a new smaller design evap block.similar to the Prometeia or the Maxxxpert in btu's it can handle.mine i run is a overkill block designed for ultra low temps and high heat loads.this smaller one i will be able to sell to i hope at a reasonable priced amount.and it should be able to run with the Prometeia with no problem if the guy have a good compressor and condensor.
if you want to keep up with my latest project look here
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4327
http://www.phase-change.com/phpBB2/index.php
:p :p

[Player0]

Well, let me know if you ever want to sell one for sure :) They look great :)

Now time for me to go on vacation... :)

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Ohh.. bowman.. You right right.. any freon that doesn't boil off in the evap and leaves as liquid is a waste.. Unless you know what to do :).

You see.. YOu could use that extra refrigerant to cool part of the high side line.. like.. sub-cooling.. :)

I am using an accumulator.. going to wrap like 5' of 1/4" tubing in it.. My design is like this

High side line comes out of the compressor goes into a copper coil of 11' of 1/4" tubing.. gets the initial heat taken off.. spiraling down.. it comes out and goes into my DD super-cube then.. gets cooled a bit more.. then goes up into my evaporator.. this design is pretty good.. it's not the greatest seeing as the super cube doesn't do very much in the way of cooling cuz it doesn't have much surface area.. So.. I am going to wrap like 5' of 1/4" tubing into this accumulator.. Going to put the tubing right after the first high side coil.. Liquid propane is going to be spilling into this.. chillin that fricken coil in their.. Now I am going have so much fricken propane in this system.. not over-charged though.. just enough.. Then it's going to go into the super-cube.. then into the evaporator.. I expect the liquid to leave the super-cube at below ambient temps.. if I have a problem with condensation in the super cube I will either turn the fan on the super-cube down.. or maybe I won't even need a fan on it at all.. I don't know what to expect.. Maybe I will put this sub-cooler/accumulator after the super-cube.. Don't know which is the best setup quite yet.. I'd say after the super-cube because then the sub-cooler doesn't have to deal with much of a heatload.. although The exit temps of the first coil are like 80F-90F on the line.. then after it leaves the super cube it is still like 80F.. so the super cube doesn't do much anyway..

[|PuNiSh3R|]

actually .. I just remembered.. I will basically be using the super-cube as a receiver then.. if this setup works like I want it to.. the exiting condensor line from the sub-cooler will be cold.. So the the super cube will basically be a receiver. but who knows.. Only time will tell the truth.

[BigBadger]

You need to do your sub-cooling after your condensor , not before, otherwise it's a total waste of time. There is only one place your system can get rid of heat, thats the condensor. The reason sub-cooling works is because it increases the temperature of the refrigerant in the condensor thereby making it more efficient at dumping that heat.

[aenigma]

Originally posted by BigBadger
You need to do your sub-cooling after your condensor , not before, otherwise it's a total waste of time. There is only one place your system can get rid of heat, thats the condensor. The reason sub-cooling works is because it increases the temperature of the refrigerant in the condensor thereby making it more efficient at dumping that heat.

He has 2 condensers.1 copper coil in a pvc pipe with a fan blowing through it, then it goes to the cube which is technically a receiver now.If he had no fan on the cube and the copper coil condenser is effeciant enough of dumping all the heat,then the subcooling will work.

Oh yeah, a subcooler decreases the temperature of the vapor,by doing that, it condenses into a liquid much easier.So you get more performance overall.Think of a cascade system....
If you have an efficient condenser already then you dont have to worry about subcooling....

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Heh badger.. your idea of sub-cooling is backwards.. aenigma already set you straight though :) IF I have cold liquid coming out of the sub-cooling going into the supercube .. I won't even use a fan on the supercube.. infact.. if the exit on the super cube is at ambient or lower I won't have af an.. I won't use a fan on the supercube unless the temp on the exit of the cube is like 10-15F above ambient.. and if I try a fan and it doesn't give any extra performence I won't use it.. this is all a guessing game.. no idea how this will work for me.. Tomorrow will tell.. I put most of my system back together tonite.. took forever to set the sub-cooler/accumulator up.. putting the nearly 6' coil in was such a b!tch.

[BigBadger]

Oh yeah, a subcooler decreases the temperature of the vapor,by doing that, it condenses into a liquid much easier.So you get more performance overall.Think of a cascade system....
It's easy to get mixed up with sub-cooling, my original post was a bit missleading, i'll try to explain myself a little more:
What you are actually doing with subcooling is exchanging heat between the warm liquid coming out of the condensor and the cold vapour coming out of the evaporator. This has the obviouse advantage of cooling the condensed liquid, but just as importantly you 'add heat back' to the vapour coming out of the evaporator. Therefore the vapour going through the compressor and into the condensor is the same temperature as always. This is good because the condensor will dump heat more effectivly the hotter it is (heat transfer is proportional to the temperature difference). The more heat you dump at the condensor the more efficient the system.
In a closed loop system tranferring heat from one part of the loop to another serves no purpose unless you can get rid of the heat somewhere. All the heat input from the cpu and waste heat from the compressor must be dumped from the system somewhere and that somewhere is the condenser.

[dmitriyaz]

Quick quetion:
i have an opportunity to get the following condensing unit very cheap, around $50 shipped.
i understand it is far from the ideal, but i'll give you specs,
please me what kind of temperatures i should expect with it.
Brand: HeatCraft
Model #: rh0025h2
Nominal HP: 1/4
question: what is nominal exactly?
BTUH @ 90*F ambient: 2520
Type: Medium/High temperature unit
question: does it mean i will never get low out of it, or does it mean it just wasn't designed to be used with for low temps, but if i play with the length of a captube etc, i will get it?
Refrigirant: R22
question: can it be successfully charged with propane?
thanks,

[aenigma]

Originally posted by dmitriyaz
Quick quetion:
i have an opportunity to get the following condensing unit very cheap, around $50 shipped.
i understand it is far from the ideal, but i'll give you specs,
please me what kind of temperatures i should expect with it.
Brand: HeatCraft
Model #: rh0025h2
Nominal HP: 1/4
question: what is nominal exactly?
BTUH @ 90*F ambient: 2520
Type: Medium/High temperature unit
question: does it mean i will never get low out of it, or does it mean it just wasn't designed to be used with for low temps, but if i play with the length of a captube etc, i will get it?
Refrigirant: R22
question: can it be successfully charged with propane?
thanks,

They say nominal because compressors dont operate at their maximum effieciency.So max is 1/4hp.

As for the low temps,I think that will work good.It is just meant for higher temps,probably an air conditioner.High psi/heat load capacity.

Yes it can be charged with R290.

[dmitriyaz]

thanks aenigma :)

i asked this once, and no one respondered,
so there we go again:
where can i find a chart comparing the proberties of all the refrigirants?
linkage preferred :)
thanks :rocker:

[bowman1964]

sorry i must not have sen your earyer question..try here and see it it helps
http://www.hvacwebtech.com/freons.htm#P/T%20Chart

[dmitriyaz]

Thanks Bowman,
thats EXACTLY what i've been looking for :toast:

[BigBadger]

Type: Medium/High temperature unit
question: does it mean i will never get low out of it, or does it mean it just wasn't designed to be used with for low temps, but if i play with the length of a captube etc, i will get it?

This means it is designed for higher suction pressures. It will not work well at low suction pressure /partial vacuum

[dmitriyaz]

Thanks BigBadger :)
i see what you are saying.
still, by "not work as well" do you mean it will not be as efficient, not be nearly as efficient, or i will damage the compressor?
thanks :toast:

[BigBadger]

It won't do any damage but it wont be very effective. I guess as long as the compressor is well oversized for your intended heat load it could still do the job.
I think the compressors designed for low suction pressure have a larger displacement (bigger bore/ longer stroke) than the high pressure units. The big displacement makes them better at 'sucking' a vacuum (but not as good at generating high pressures).

[dmitriyaz]

i see.
no, actually the compressor is kind of undersized,
1/4 hp.
off hand, what would you say will be the kind of temps i should get with it, using r22/r290 and a TXV, with CPU block only?
just trying to figure out if its worth fifty bucks :confused:

[BigBadger]

That's kinda hard to say, it all depends on the design of the rest of the system but i would guess around -35C evaporating temp under full load would be the best you could get.

[aenigma]

Yeah those damn low medium and high temp ratings haha.It sohuld suit your needs though....
Medium/high temp units having a shorter stroke sounds very likely.I am sure that is the differance.But for a cpu you dont have to get real picky,so it should work good for you.
Wait a/c and dehumidifer compressors would be rated as medium/high temp compressors,and they work good at low temps and pressure.


I like this refrigerant chart:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.tu-dresden.de/mw/iem/kkt/mitarbeiter/lib/Kraus/kaeltemittel.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dr170%2Bboiling%2Bpoint%26hl%3Den%26lr %3D%26ie%3DUTF-8

[dmitriyaz]

-35? not too shabby for the price of a switfech heatsink, i am thinking...
aenigma, nice chart! and, it has r290 :banana:
thanks, guys
:toast:

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Heh.. you see in my sub-cooler.. I ain't having cold vapor come into it.. Most of what goes into is still going to be liquid propane :)

It is a sub-cooler/accumulator combo.. I need it in place because I want to have my system charged a lot more.. so I would have a :banana::banana::banana::banana:load of liquid slugging if not for it.. and I don't start to see really good temps at the end of the evap till I get liquid slugging.. Best I saw was -2.2F at the very end of the evap on the suction line.. and I was liquid slugging then.. so now that I am cooling my condensor off even more.. my super-cube will basically act as a receiver for the liquid and I will have a :banana::banana::banana::banana:load of liquid propane pouring into my sub-cooler/accumulator.. Lets hope that the acid core solder I am going to use will work on this steel container so I can seal the lid on it and get this sub-cooler working

[dmitriyaz]

ok, yet another stupid question:
can i put r290 in a r134a compressor?
__ yes, and if you pick the right amount of captube or a txv, it will work swell
__ it will work, but not nearly as effiecient as, say, r290 in r22 compressor (please explain why)
__ it will not work. the compressor is simply not compatible with r290.
and to avoid further confusion, what are the general guidelines when putting r290 into a compressor designed for defferent refrigirant? will it or will it not work, how, and why?
thanks :)

[aenigma]

Originally posted by dmitriyaz
ok, yet another stupid question:
can i put r290 in a r134a compressor?
__ yes, and if you pick the right amount of captube or a txv, it will work swell
__ it will work, but not nearly as effiecient as, say, r290 in r22 compressor (please explain why)
__ it will not work. the compressor is simply not compatible with r290.
and to avoid further confusion, what are the general guidelines when putting r290 into a compressor designed for defferent refrigirant? will it or will it not work, how, and why?
thanks :)

I keep hearing that your not suppose to put it in R134 because its not designed to work with the high psi, but frankly I think its a load of crap.If you can go with an older R12/R22 compressor that would be much better I am sure.

But the no R290 in an R134a compressor is most likely bs.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Well.. I wouldn't use r290 in a 1/20HP r134a compressor.. (aenigma) if u know what I mean :) Well.. ok so I lied.. I am going to end up charging this little 1/20HP compressor that I have with 290.. goin to make it into a little ice box :)

Nothing kicks ass more then like a 5 year old r12 or r22 compressor.. Just that right age.. I think anyway..

Btw, I am actually making progress on my brazing job..

[aenigma]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
Well.. I wouldn't use r290 in a 1/20HP r134a compressor.. (aenigma) if u know what I mean :) Well.. ok so I lied.. I am going to end up charging this little 1/20HP compressor that I have with 290.. goin to make it into a little ice box :)

Nothing kicks ass more then like a 5 year old r12 or r22 compressor.. Just that right age.. I think anyway..

Btw, I am actually making progress on my brazing job..

Yeah I remember why you couldnt use it,if you know what i mean. ;)
You didnt overcharge it :p

[|PuNiSh3R|]

maybe cuz my limp ass could get an erection faster then that thing could make the evaporator drop 1F?

[naTTen]

Which refrigant should i use if i dont have a "green certificate" or whatever its called. Would r290 be the best refrigant or are there other alternatives that is better(lower temps). And i would not like to know which is the best teoretical, i want something that is good IRL

[BigBadger]

R290 is dirt cheap so will give you the most bang for your buck. only trouble is 'bang' could be the right word because R290(propane) is highly flamible and explosive under the right conditions. it's actually illegal to use propane indoors in the UK, not sure about elswhere.
R404a or R507 would give you slightly lower evap temps (-47c against -43c at 1 bara) and have the advantage of being non-flamible. However they are both pretty expensive in small quantities (£150 for 9KG of R404a anyone!!!!)

[aenigma]

Yeah, R290 is a nice refrigerant, takes a perfect ratio of air to propane to actually blowup.If you can get another refrigerant like R22 R404 R507 etc. , it will work alot better.
Propane gets cold, but it doesnt perform as good as real refrigerants meant for this kind of stuff....

[naTTen]

is it the boilingtemp you should look at when you are gonna decide which refrigant that is the best or is there other properties?

[aenigma]

Well R290 vs. R22, they both have very similar boiling points.But R22 performs much better, it is actually made for this kind of thing, r290 isnt.Check out dupont.com and you can read about some refrigerants...

[naTTen]

ok, it seems that freon based refrigants is the best, but its illegal to use that now, in sweden anyways. But there are som similar refrigants that can replace R22,
R417A
R404A
R407C
R410A
and offcourse R134A, but ive heard that it doesnt perform so good.R404A seems to be the best for serious low temps, but i dont know the prices för a copmressor uniat and R404A but i guess its quite expensive.

[aenigma]

Freon is just a name brand from duPont.
R410a and R507 seem to be better than R404a.At least lower boiling points.

[Kurupt]

Real men use Click me (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1778479688)

[naTTen]

Well Freon is a C-F-C and destroys ozon, and you cant buy it in sweden so any freon based refrigant is out of the question for me

[|PuNiSh3R|]

use propane then.. ur only choice it seems.

[TechTones]

Hi.

I'd like to ask you guys a question.

I pulled a Tecumseh compressor, evap, condenser out of a freezer in one piece. It does work but I have a little problem.

There is a little silver colored coil coming from the evap to the thermostat controller that has a little knob on it for controlling then temps. Now this controler also has wires comming from it. The coil is too short to be able to submerge the evap in the water all the way with it attached.

Now my question is, is there freon flowing thru this silver coil because I would like to cut the end off near the evap and not spring a leak. This would allow me to submerge the evap all the way, and then be able to still use the thermostat to control the water temps.

This coil is NOT the little copper capillary coil. It does look like it though but is silver colored and doesn't look to be copper.

So can I cut it off on one end??

BTW, this compressor unit is a 1/5HP 1530 BTU/HR R.22 compressor running on 110v. Is this good enough to cool down water? I'm not looking for subzero freezing anyway.

The model number is AE162AT-907

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Yes... that compressor is plenty good at 1,500BTU.

You can cut that line.. but that is the thermometer for the thermostat.. heh.. THe lines that go to the thermostat control device are power lines.. The power comes into the temp control first then to the compressor. SO.. cut the silver line.. but you will lose thermostat control.

One thing you could do is run the return water line to a T fitting.. have the thermostat silver temp probe line go into the T.. this way you can still control the water temp.. and you can have the water line go right past it and just remove the temp probe from the evap.. it's probably wrapped around some hooks or something like it was on my mini-fridge.. no biggie.

[TechTones]

Thank you.

Is this compressor poweful enought to use for phase change direct die cooling?

If yes, I don't really have the tools to make an evap. Is it true I can possibly use a copper topped Gemini spiral water block as an evap? Any other water block I can use?

I have a copper top DD Maze2 and a Dtek TC-4 Sidewinder.

Will I get slugging with such a small evap?

What can I end to stop it? Someone mentioned an accumulator to me but doesn't recommend it.

[bowman1964]

TechTones Is this compressor poweful enought to use for phase change direct die cooling? yes but it wont keep but proberly -5c or so loaded temps on a amd chip overclocked.and depends on how effecient you make the system.
.
If yes, I don't really have the tools to make an evap. Is it true I can possibly use a copper topped Gemini spiral water block as an evap? Any other water block I can use?
yes a copper topped Gemini would work best with the narrow groves.top must be soldered on...


Will I get slugging with such a small evap?
yes but just run about 6 ft of copper tubing from the return line around the compressor to boil off any remaining refridgerant

[TechTones]

So basically all I have to do is take the capillary line, sink it in one of the water block holes and solder it in and do the same with the suction line on the other end?

How far should I insert the little capillary line into the water block?


Do I use a reducer from the air shop to make the water block hole smaller?

Can I solder it myself with regular solder or do I need a air tech to do it for me?

The system will then need to be vacumed before it can be charged right? So I need to bring it to a shop for that then.

You've been very helpful. I'd like to make this happen.

Do they even make Gemini's with copper tops??

So I'd have to get a copper plate made for the top then?

Should I get the high volume Gemini or the rev2?

So many questions! I hope you bear with me :)

Do I need to change the length of the capillary tube or leave it the way the manufacturer has it?

Did you use copper suction return lines on your evap or hose?
I'm always concerned about bending the capillary and suction tube too much when putting it on the cpu.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

I use the gemini normal flow block myself.. and I braze the top on.. put the screws n and braze it.. leave the screws in.. it works GREAT to say the least.. I have a 1/4 or 1/3HP compressor.. not sure which it is..

The gemini block works great. Just put 1/4" flare fittings into the holes on the block.. stick the cap tube down so it's like.. 1mm from the bottom of the block.. i mean you want it RIGHT there.. then simply solder the hole of the flare fitting closed with the cap tube in.. i run the cap tube through the suction line.

Your compressor .. 1,500BTU should handle direct die fine.. and I don't get liquid slugging.. I mean a 150w heatload is only 550BTU/H.. so you are using a third of your compressors capacity.. you will still get very good temps.

[TechTones]

You mean stick the cap tube in the suction line and solder them both into one hole? I thought the freon had to run thru the channels to boil off then get sucked thru the return line at the end of the channel?

Does this mean I need to plug up one of the holes on the water block because it's not used?

I wish I had a diagram of what I need to do and how it should look guys. I'm new to this but good with my hands.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

No, picture the waterblock being used in water cooling.. you have the inlet water go into the center and then the outlet go out the other hole.. Same thing.. the cap tube goes into the center hole.. Grrr.. I'll give you pics of my system in a day or 2.. ok?

Anyway with the suction line you drill a hole in it.. stick the cap tube it and run it to the end of the suction line.. drill another hole.. pull the cap tube through it.. flare the end of the suction line.. have the cap tube go into the center of the block through the flare fitting.. then solder the flare fitting shut.. put the suction line on the outlet fitting.. It's very very easy .. I will give you pics like i said.. once u see it you'll be able to do it no problem.

[TechTones]

OK sounds great! :toast:

So you just welded a home made copper plate to the top of the Gemini? Welding is leak proof?

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Um.. actually i got the copper tops from gemini as well.. Peter (owner of gemini cool) makes a copper top version as well.. the copper top screws on to the lower channel piece.. So all I do is put the top on.. screw it in place with the 4 screws.. then I heat the block up with my propane torch.. mounting the block and torch so I can walk away and let it heat up.. come back 5-10 minutes later and keeping the propane torch on.. I use my stronger MAPP gas torch to give the block that extra 200f heat.. which I use to braze the block shut.. Brazing is hard soldering and it is vastly superior to a soft solder (soft solder melts at 800F and below and hard is anything above 800F).

With the proper heat the copper phospherous brazing rods melt and flow just like the normal soft solder.. the nice thing about brazing is you don't need to have all this attention to detail.. super clean surfaces and flux bull§§§§.. I just heat the block and braze.. dragging the rod across the small groove between the top n bottom pieces.. flows and creates a bond between the two pieces with a tensile strength of 40,000PSI.. It won't leak :)

Then I soft solder the flare fittings in place.

[bowman1964]

|PuNiSh3R| i want to say good going buddy.hope the system of yous is working good.i would have mine going but i have been slow latley.
keep up the good work my friend

[|PuNiSh3R|]

thanks.. you too

[TechTones]

I was looking at both Gemini block again. Wouldn't the high volume block with deeper channels be better then the one with smaller ones?

[|PuNiSh3R|]

You want deep and thin channels.. I haven't tried the high volume yet.. but in a vertical mounting setup I'd say the normal flow would work best.

[Clintonthelegen]

Hey |PuNiSh3R| where are you at in PA? Just wondered cause I am near Connelsville.

[NoEcho]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
Either way the worst thing that will happen.. is if you do like me.. and forget propane is in your system and start to unsolder a line.. lol.. all that happens is you get a big flame shooting from the leak.. you just blow it out.. or use a fire extiguisher.. or whatever.. ....[snip].

Just be careful and use common sense with working with it.. over time you'll become used to working with it and not afraid of it.

Dude, that's too dangerous.

It's like juggling nitro... you just have to do it VERY carefully. But why would you? For the benefits you accrue (cost and performance of propane over other phase change substances), consider the potential costs.

You've got a flammable gas, you've got hot electronics, you've got an electrically powered compressor keeping it moving while it greatly increases the substance's explosive capabilities! (Diesel, one step above road tar, explodes in a similiar setup, aka a piston) And you soldered it?

If nobody else in your life is giving you a reality check on this then let me be the first.

It isn't worth the risk.

[aenigma]

NoEcho, you don't know how internal combustion engine work do you?They pull air, which contains oxygen, into the chamber.Therefore it explodes becuase it has air to assist in burning.I would love to see you try and make a sealed airless system full of propane explode.By the way it explodes from glow plugs, which ignites the fuel.There are no red hot objects in phase change systems.

You need to do some reading I think.By the way propane isn't just used by hobbyists like me punisher warlord mr. baz etc. etc. but also used commercially.

[dmitriyaz]

Aenigma, diesel doesn't need ignition :)
it expoles from pressure only, given there is air in the mixture.

other than that,
Aenigma is right, except (as always) he should have been nicer about it :hehe:
the only real problem with propane is its relatively low heat capacity,
and THAT, not the flammability, is why it's not used commercially as much.
in other words, even though r22 is more expenisive, in the long run, it would pay for itself by saving electricity.
in theory, anyway :)

[NoEcho]

I edited my prior post to express my feelings in less offensive terms. An explosion is a long shot but it's such a bad thing that it strikes me as an 'incredibly bad idea' to use explosive substances for phase change, both for this guy doing it and for people reading it who might be inclined to try it.

It's just too risky. Not "cool" risky but like 'this could go so horribly wrong that it should probably be avoided if at all possible'.

It is definitely possible to avoid.

[aenigma]

Ok I don't know where I wasn't being nice.That is just how I talk, none of it is meant to sound mean.You just see mean where there isn't any. :p


Aenigma, diesel doesn't need ignition
Uhh, yes it does.They use glow plugs in replacement of spark plugs which heats up enough to cause the combustion.After that it runs from the heat of the engine.

<edit>

NoEcho:
Yeah alot of people feel the same way you do about propane.But it is not as dangerous as most people think, and in a quality sealed phase change system nothing will go horribly wrong.There is no air, so it can not catch fire within the system.Now if you have a HUGE leak, then light it with a lighter then yeah bad things can happen.

[dmitriyaz]

Aegigma:
my bad. yes, you are correct about the glow plugs.
doesn't make much difference though :)

NoEcho:
your post wasn't offensive at all, don't worry about it :)
using propane as a refridgerant is actually a common practice.
read this paper (http://www.gtz.de/proklima/doc/pub1996/yb96-5.pdf), particularly the safety instructions.
as you'll see, there is notihg extreme about it.
if you are still not convinced, ask Aenigma about how he once set his propane-filled phase change system on fire.
he blew on it (with his mouth:p) and put the fire out. yes, just blew on it.
on the contrary, just recently, he accidentally stuck a finger in the conderser fan. it turned his hand into a bloody mess, he had to have double row of stitches put in, and take plenty of Vicodin.
go figure :stick:

[aenigma]

Yeah watch those fans, they bite.But I am such a hard core american dude(dmitryaz is the hardcore russian dude) that I took the stitches out my self (insert tim the toolman grunt here) :D
Oh yeah, I didn't need the vicodin because I am so hardcore.I stopped taking it becuase it didn't hurt, I was lucky.

[NoEcho]

Apparently I was wrong to be alarmed.

I wrote a member of the National Association of Propane Gas and asked him about the safety of this use. He affirmed that he found its use for these purposes safe. I stand corrected.

[bowman1964]

Originally posted by NoEcho
Apparently I was wrong to be alarmed.

I wrote a member of the National Association of Propane Gas and asked him about the safety of this use. He affirmed that he found its use for these purposes safe. I stand corrected.
well lots of things can be very dangerous if improperly used.and yes if you are not carefull and follow directions propane will bite your butt.
but used with the proper care it is a great refridgerant.

just like if you stick you fingers in a delta fan blowing 5000 rpms on your cpu just to see if the fan is running fast.........gotcha you now need medical attention.:cool:
just be careful and have fun:D

[aenigma]

Yep, or if you stick your finger in a condenser fan. :D
Or if you take an open flame to R12/R22 and die from the fumes. :eek:

[Arky]

Originally posted by bowman1964
just like if you stick you fingers in a delta fan blowing 5000 rpms on your cpu just to see if the fan is running fast.........gotcha you now need medical attention.:cool:
just be careful and have fun:D

:D made me laff

[naTTen]

The creator of the thread is back!!

I have a small question. Which compressors can you fill upp with propane?

I guess that the oils have something to do with it but in general?