View Full Version : So where's the 20nm IMFT sync nand at??
When Tosh started shipping their new 19nm toggle, I figured Intel/Micron would be right on their heels...actually thought they'd be launched first. Here's a write up from Intel's newsroom (http://newsroom.intel.com/community/intel_newsroom/blog/2011/12/06/intel-micron-extend-nand-flash-technology-leadership-with-introduction-of-worlds-first-128gb-nand-device-and-mass-production-of-64gb-20nm-nand) dated Dec. 6th 2011.
"The companies also announced mass production of their 64Gb 20nm NAND, which further extends the companies' leadership in NAND process technology."
I've read several write ups saying they've been in full mass production for a while (approx. 10 months according to what Intel stated)...so...Where is it??
I'm hoping that the newer and cheaper 20nm may be enuff to bring the price down on future launches of 240GB SF-2282 based drives running 32 nand chips like the newest Corsair Force GT (http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/4928/corsair_force_gt_2012_240gb_ssd_review/index.html) and GS (http://www.rwlabs.com/article.php?cat=articles&id=658) (with 32 toggle chips). I know not to expect the new 128Gb (16GB) onfi3 dies until late 4th quarter or maybe Q1 2013. But when it is ready it'll be the 480/512 drive sizes that'll rule the scene thanx to both the shrink and the speed increase afforded by onfi3.0 spec nand. Too bad they can't stuff 32 x 128Gb nand chips w/ a 2282 into a standard 2.5" enclosure...tho a 1TB 3.5" doesn't sound so bad. :D
When Tosh started shipping their new 19nm toggle, I figured Intel/Micron would be right on their heels...actually thought they'd be launched first. Here's a write up from Intel's newsroom (http://newsroom.intel.com/community/intel_newsroom/blog/2011/12/06/intel-micron-extend-nand-flash-technology-leadership-with-introduction-of-worlds-first-128gb-nand-device-and-mass-production-of-64gb-20nm-nand) dated Dec. 6th 2011.
"The companies also announced mass production of their 64Gb 20nm NAND, which further extends the companies' leadership in NAND process technology."
I've read several write ups saying they've been in full mass production for a while (approx. 10 months according to what Intel stated)...so...Where is it??
Patience.. :)
Too bad they can't stuff 32 x 128Gb nand chips w/ a 2282 into a standard 2.5" enclosure...tho a 1TB 3.5" doesn't sound so bad. :D
Huh? Are you talking 32 physical packages or 32 die in the drive? (Multiple chip packages)
BGA flash is two die per package minimum (typically).
Why couldn't they stuff 32 physical packages in a 2.5" enclosure?
Thought I read that the physical chip size was larger than the current 64Gb chips and 32 of them wouldn't fit on the PCB. I'll try and find where I saw that...
Sirakuz
09-07-2012, 03:59 PM
...so...Where is it??
OCZ Agility 3 20nm http://www.ocztechnology.com/ocz-agility-3-20nm-sata-iii-2-5-ssd.html
OCZ Solid 3 20nm http://www.ocztechnology.com/ocz-solid-3-20nm-sata-iii-2-5-ssd.html
:D
Ahhh...so the asynchronous 20nm is in the channel now. Being the slower type nand is probably why it didn't make the tech news. Synchronous can't be far behind, that's for sure. Since the Agility 4s use async, the even cheaper Solid might be using lower binned 20nm, making for more affordable chips.
Big bummer that canthearu has mentioned is that the new 20nm process won't lower prices...at least not initially. Big reason for that is that an under-supply of nand is predicted. This is why Ocz lowered their Q2 sales forecast (http://www.tweaktown.com/news/25691/micron_sandisk_shares_jump_on_warning_of_nand_chip _shortage/index.html). That and the fact that Toshiba is cutting their nand production by a third to help drive nand prices up in the very near future.
This sets the stage for SanDisk to rack up some sales on it's drives that use tosh toggle nand because they are 'partners' in the nand business with none other than Toshiba itself...so I doubt SanDisk will have to pay full price nor worry about availability issues. The 24nm toggle seems to be doing well plus they have the 19nm toggle now shipping...and I'm still seeing some higher endurance 32nm toggle drives getting price cuts! Maybe tosh is still making some 32nm on the side?
jimba86
09-07-2012, 08:12 PM
I read some where the other day that flash memory is overstocked so prices will go down so that they can get rid of it all.
cheap SSD? yes please..:D
At the moment, it is overstocked...I'm guessing it'll be 2013 before we start noticing slightly higher prices. With Tosh cutting back a 3rd of their nand production, I think we can also expect to pay a higher premium for drives equipped with toggle nand.
I decided weeks ago that I'm not gonna buy another SSD until we see what the upcoming and very capable Indilinx Barefoot 3 controller is all about...but one thing that sux is that it won't be cheap, at least not at first or until/if they license it out to other vendors. I think there is a good chance we'll see it launched in time for the Xmas shopping season...fingers crossed.
As a direct result of the looming price hike, ssd makers who make their own nand are gonna rack up. That would be Crucial (owned by Micron) and SanDisk because of their nand partnership with Toshiba. Both company's stock went up (http://www.tweaktown.com/news/25691/micron_sandisk_shares_jump_on_warning_of_nand_chip _shortage/index.html) when the upcoming shortage made the news. I'm sure Intel will benefit just as well...it'll make their premium price tag look normal...lol
Highendtoys
09-10-2012, 12:40 PM
Toshy will bring their production back up very soon I'm sure. I just got word today that they just dropped prices by 20-25%. A news post is in queue at TweakTown now.
Kain665
09-10-2012, 12:50 PM
At the moment, it is overstocked...I'm guessing it'll be 2013 before we start noticing slightly higher prices. With Tosh cutting back a 3rd of their nand production, I think we can also expect to pay a higher premium for drives equipped with toggle nand.
I decided weeks ago that I'm not gonna buy another SSD until we see what the upcoming and very capable Indilinx Barefoot 3 controller is all about...but one thing that sux is that it won't be cheap, at least not at first or until/if they license it out to other vendors. I think there is a good chance we'll see it launched in time for the Xmas shopping season...fingers crossed.
As a direct result of the looming price hike, ssd makers who make their own nand are gonna rack up. That would be Crucial (owned by Micron) and SanDisk because of their nand partnership with Toshiba. Both company's stock went up (http://www.tweaktown.com/news/25691/micron_sandisk_shares_jump_on_warning_of_nand_chip _shortage/index.html) when the upcoming shortage made the news. I'm sure Intel will benefit just as well...it'll make their premium price tag look normal...lol
Sit tight!
Toshy will bring their production back up very soon I'm sure. I just got word today that they just dropped prices by 20-25%. A news post is in queue at TweakTown now.
Lol...yeah, I just read it and was coming here to post it up.
Let the price war begin...er keep on goin'!! As if prices haven't dropped like a rock already. Sooo glad I've held off buying another drive...gonna make it even harder to hold out for the Barefoot 3 to launch.
Looks like Micron and SanDisk are gonna loose that nice little stock jump as a result of this announcement. Looks like Tosh giveth and taketh away...lol
Here's the TT link:
http://www.tweaktown.com/news/25738/rumor_tt_toshiba_cuts_nand_prices_20_to_25_today/index.html
Sit tight!
Damn NDAs strike again eh?
This price cut timing is all but screaming that 20nm sync is VERY close to hitting the channel.
Highendtoys
09-10-2012, 04:47 PM
Yep, it went up when I was at the boys football practice.
Anyhow, you guys have all kinds of stuff going on in this thread. Let me tackle some of them real quick.
19nm Toshiba Toggle kicks 20nm IMFT's ass, at least that is what I observed at Computex when I had identical drives with identical firmware in my hands. You have to real these quick posts in order to make sense.
http://www.tweaktown.com/news/24506/world_exclusive_sandforce_ssd_benchmarks_with_tosh iba_19nm_toggle_mode_flash/index.html
then this one: http://www.tweaktown.com/news/24507/world_exclusive_sandforce_ssd_benchmarks_with_imft _20nm_onfi2_flash/index.html
As for Barefoot 3....just because a CEO starts talking about a product in a briefing that doesn't mean you can count on it. I had a one-on-one meeting with Indilinx way before OCZ bought them in Taipei. It was around 5 months after Crucial brought out the C300. In that meeting they were talking about Jet Stream and said it should have Barefoot branding when it come out. The performance quoted back then was 450 read / 400 write (off the top of my head but that is the kind of thing I remember). Flash has improved since then and so has SATA III (remember, back then we had Marvell SATA III and not native SATA III).
What's also changed is Indilinx. The lead designed has moved on and started Novachips (worlds only preview article (http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/4827/biwin_nuvodrive_nx_novachips_bugatti_preview_world _exclusive/index.html)). So how much different could Barefoot 3 be from the Bugatti since this guy would of influenced both designs? I'm not saying that Barefoot 3 is going to come out and be on the weak side, OCZ can do some amazing things, they have a lot of talent. When Octane came out though and was branded an Indilinx design, I got a lot of emails hours it came out that said, OCZ doesn't have the money to spin their own chip, this is a Marvell chip. I can't say if that is true or not but Octane, just like Vertex 4 did in fact end up being based on Marvell silicon.
Last thing. There is no reason to wait for Barefoot 3. I'm speaking as a SSD seller now. The Chris Ramseyer Signature SSD will be announced either late this week or early next week. SandForce SF-2281 controller, 5.0.3 firmware with TRIM WORKING!!! and SLC flash:) Blue TweakTown aluminum case, 50 signed and hand numbered drives, the fastest consumer SSDs on the market and with flash that has 100K P/E cycles. 128GB capacity, around 250 Dollars shipped from here in the US.
I remember the JetStream no show and read about their top guy leaving but never never made the Jet Stream/Bugatti/BF3 connection which ofc makes total sense that Ocz are likely finishing what he started. The pressure is on cuz Ocz knows they have to produce something significantly better than what's out now...namely SF and Marvell and I'm sure LSI/SF are hard at work on their next gen silicon (SF-3200 series maybe?) as well. That's another reason I like flash so much, besides the speed, there's never a dull moment it seems. There's almost always something newer and better around the corner...be it controllers, nand or firmware even.
The Chris Ramseyer Signature SSD will be announced either late this week or early next week.
Safe to assume it'll perform about the same as the SuperSSpeed S301 Hyper Gold (http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/4790/supersspeed_s301_hyper_slc_120gb_solid_state_drive _review/index.html)?
Any plans to offer the 60GB version? As mentioned in that thread, a pair of those 60s in raid0 would be fast as hell AND affordable...I think the 60s would easily out sell the 120gb drives for these reasons alone. Can't wait to see the numbers for either size in R0. Now I'm hoping that the upcoming 20nm class IMFT w/ 128Gb dies will also be include SLC helping to lower the cost a bit as well as facilitate a 240/512GB SLC offering.
Kain665
09-10-2012, 08:09 PM
You guys just wait and see. The SSD playing field will be very different by this time next year.
Highendtoys
09-11-2012, 07:11 PM
Well I just had a Barefoot 3 in my hands...shows what I know LOL
Yes, they are the same drive as the SuperSSpeed S301. We aren't hiding that fact at all BUT... The S301 is fast now that TRIM is working, a lot faster than when I reviewed it! I've had the benchmark numbers with 5.0.3 for a couple of weeks but have been working on getting the special drive ready and working on some other projects.
Highendtoys
09-11-2012, 07:25 PM
I wish I had my numbers with me but with working TRIM the S301 does low 90K range in Vantage with my AHCI setup. I would say 94K to 95K with the new drivers and AHCI set to RAID, just with the drive JBOD. IT's just a monster of a drive. I'll look through what I have here and see if I have the benchmark spread. I know I posted some screenshots on my Facebook page.
Sounds like a winner to me no matter what. :D Fingers still crossed for a 60GB version...would sell like hotcakes.
Yeah, they've named the first BF3 drive 'Vector' using Micron MLC according to anadtech. I assume here will be a toggle model in the works as well...hopefully.
Highendtoys
09-11-2012, 10:06 PM
http://www.tweaktown.com/news/25774/ocz_vector_spotted_barefoot_3_lives/index.html
They are looking into the flash now and seeing what my work better. This is still an early prototype, it even has the diagnostic ports on the PCB. We did talk about Toshiba flash but it sounds like even with the new 30% reduction in Toggle price the price is still higher than Micron.
I don't follow all of the ups and downs of flash as closely as I should. That market is quite complicated just like DRAM. You or I would not make it in that market because we would want to sell everything and make a profit. Those guys are content with selling at a loss for a period of time and then making it all back up in just a couple of months out of the year. It is a cut throat world ICs are in.
Kain665
09-12-2012, 09:01 AM
I'd count on Micron 25nm Sync for at least the primary release. But it'll be quick - even with Async NAND. Perhaps, you won't even see an increase with Toggle over ONFI ;)