Gabe Newell calls Win8 a 'catastrophe,' wants Linux to thrive

[Philip_J_Fry]

http://techreport.com/discussions.x/23315
http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/25/valves-gabe-newell-talks/


One, we’re trying to make sure that Linux thrives. Our perception is that one of the big problems holding Linux back is the absence of games. I think that a lot of people — in their thinking about platforms — don’t realize how critical games are as a consumer driver of purchases and usage. So we’re going to continue working with the Linux distribution guys, shipping Steam, shipping our games, and making it as easy as possible for anybody who’s engaged with us — putting their games on Steam and getting those running on Linux, as well. It’s a hedging strategy.

I think that Windows 8 is kind of a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space. I think that we're going to lose some of the top-tier PC [original equipment manufacturers]. They'll exit the market. I think margins are going to be destroyed for a bunch of people. If that's true, it's going to be a good idea to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality. But when you start thinking about a platform, you have to address it. You have to address mobile. You have to look at what's going to happen post-tablet. If you look at the mouse and keyboard, it was stable for about 25 years. I think touch will be stable for about 10 years. I think post-touch, and we'll be stable for a really long time — for another 25 years. I think touch will be this intermediate….

so stick with win 7? heh

[iddqd]

The bigger problem with linux is the graphics drivers are awful. so even if your code is portable and you just compile a linux executable, it'll still run way faster if you just run it inside a windows virtual machine. But then again, there aren't many people trying to play games so AMD and nVidia aren't that interested in improving their drivers in the first place. So it's a chicken-and-egg problem.

Also, I was under impression Win8 was supposed to be more linux-like than any of its predecessors.

[kuroikenshi]

^^it'll only take a powerhouse like Gabe to pioneer and create a market opportunity, AMD and NVIDIA will surely follow suit. Noone wants to lose out on market expansion opportunities.

[zanzabar]

but with a non open valve build (in the way android works) i could work out with better drivers. though that may not be a better idea since he dislikes windows 8 for lack of "openness" and not the :banana::banana::banana::banana:ty UI. he just dislikes the games for windows live store.

[Syn.]

I stopped listening to Gabe's emotional opinions on new/unreleased products after he appeared on Sony stage at last years E3. Funny how he stated loving the PS3 soon as Sony let him plug in Steam into it. Gabe is a good guy but i don't really rate his opinion when it to comes to anything else but games.

Oh and what is a really huge catastrophe is Valve's development cycle! WHERE THE HELL ARE THE NEW GAMES!!!! Come on! Where is the new Half Life game?

[[XC] Lead Head]

The bigger problem with linux is the graphics drivers are awful. so even if your code is portable and you just compile a linux executable, it'll still run way faster if you just run it inside a windows virtual machine. But then again, there aren't many people trying to play games so AMD and nVidia aren't that interested in improving their drivers in the first place. So it's a chicken-and-egg problem.

Also, I was under impression Win8 was supposed to be more linux-like than any of its predecessors.
Agreed. Install ATI proprietary drivers on linux, my card immediately gets warmer, video playback is not as smooth as it was with the generic drivers. Uninstall the proprietary drivers, the system no longer starts X or even boots to the command line. My mouse does not work correctly either.

It's silly nonsense stuff like the above that will prevent Linux distributions from going mainstream. It certainly doesn't help that many small, silly, commonly used system administrative tasks still can't be performed through the GUI.

IMO, Google had the right idea. Bury the CLI, and get the GUI portion right so you won't ever need the CLI. As long as desktop distributions still need fiddling in the CLI on a semi-often basis, Linux will not succeed.

[Generic user #2]

lol yep. linux people REALLY don't understand that consumers value discoverability more than efficiency

[Greg83]

the made windows 8 UI just for tablets and we all hate it.
gabe is gonna make linux games work with steam , making it easier for ppl.

next , you'll have steam arm based games for win8 and google and apple tablet os'
i wouldn't be amazed if google makes its own os available for desktop again if ppl actually accept that win8 ui

[kromosto]

xp to vista people says "vista is the worst os ever will stick to xp never upgrade to vista bla bla bla". when win7 released "this is the best os, hail to the king bla bla bla"
now think this as win 7 to win 8 and when the win 9 comes out :D . linux has a very very long road to go.

[W1zzard]

I think that Steam is kind of a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space. I think that we're going to lose some of the top-tier game developers. They'll exit the market.
fixed for you

Gabe is just promoting his Linux DRM so he can make more money

[zanzabar]

fixed for you

Gabe is just promoting his Linux DRM so he can make more money

http://i.imgur.com/WkB8O.jpg

is there some kind of publisher other than GOG who puts AAA games out with no drm. the way it is now you have unusable :banana::banana::banana::banana: and steam/desura


maybe he can get some usable video drivers on linux by having a no open platform that can then be ported though.

[Piledriver]

How can you say something is going to be a catastrophe and not explain why? But hey forget the agenda, nothing against pushing Linux forward.

[zanzabar]

How can you say something is going to be a catastrophe and not explain why? But hey forget the agenda, nothing against pushing Linux forward.

he had talked about the windows and mac app store, windows games for windows live integration and market, but said nothing of the UI problems. so basically MS will have bad steam rip off built in and he dose not want to have competition, and he is worried about MS bringing exclusives to its market as he dose not do any of that with steam ;).

[lizardmech]

How can you say something is going to be a catastrophe and not explain why? But hey forget the agenda, nothing against pushing Linux forward.

They're worried about them making windows a closed system. If metro is successful enough in the future you might see a locked down version on x86 that is similar to WindowsRT. If they release a cheaper metro only version they could try and monetize everything like the xbox 360, all games would only come from the windows store and they could start charging for GFWL. Microsoft isn't even very friendly to PC gaming of late to begin with, they would rather you buy xbox games.

[naokaji]

Number of people who had some sort of vision of Linux gaining foothold in the consumer market = close to infinite.

Bitter reality = Linux market share on Consumer Pcs / Laptops is still in the single digits.

Lets face it, Kids go to school where they use Windows, when they are grown up they go on to work where they use Windows as well, obviously they are going to use Windows at home as well cause they are already familiar with it.
Then there is the issue of software compability, be it games, ms office, or whatever else, average joe doesn't want to give that all up and look for alternatives or workarounds, cause average jioe doesn't know how to do that.
Hell, there are enough people out there who can't tell what version of Windows they have, good luck convincing them with some argument that they should give up the comfort of it just works in favor of Linux.

[blindbox]

Number of people who had some sort of vision of Linux gaining foothold in the consumer market = close to infinite.

Bitter reality = Linux market share on Consumer Pcs / Laptops is still in the single digits.

Lets face it, Kids go to school where they use Windows, when they are grown up they go on to work where they use Windows as well, obviously they are going to use Windows at home as well cause they are already familiar with it.
There is the issue of software compability, be it games, ms office, or whatever else, average joe doesn't want to give that all up and look for alternatives or workarounds, cause average jioe doesn't know how to do that.

Close to infinite but none of them has as much resource as Valve does, or the idea is usually killed by investors.

I for one welcome this as progress.

[DeathReborn]

I get enough hassle trying to help family members with Windows, Linux needs to make that mainstream step before it can become the PC OS of choice. Games developers always lean towards market penetration and Windows has it in spades. Raspberry Pi and similar devices once they they reach critical mass will only get more people into Linux but without the lowest common denominator (i.e. non-computer literate people) it will forever be the forgotten step-sibling of PC operating systems.

[Motiv]

I get enough hassle trying to help family members with Windows, Linux needs to make that mainstream step before it can become the PC OS of choice. Games developers always lean towards market penetration and Windows has it in spades. Raspberry Pi and similar devices once they they reach critical mass will only get more people into Linux but without the lowest common denominator (i.e. non-computer literate people) it will forever be the forgotten step-sibling of PC operating systems.

Very true. Linux for desktop needs to be as hassle free as possible. I think it is still a bit of the legacy of it's roots that causes it to be uber complex at times.

[SubZero.it]

Regardless of this if you have tried Windows 8 on a desktop pc it really sucks.

[Motiv]

Regardless of this if you have tried Windows 8 on a desktop pc it really sucks.

I found it to be ok actually. far better than I was expecting.

[SEA]

a 'catastrophe'...
:rofl:

Written from my computer having Win8 since February 2012

[herderien]

i think windows start to follow the same odd/even scheme then startrek movies :

95 bad / 98 good / millenium bad / XP good /vista bad / 7 good / 8 bad / 9 good

[Buckeye]

i think windows start to follow the same odd/even scheme then startrek movies :

95 bad / 98 good / millenium bad / XP good /vista bad / 7 good / 8 bad / 9 good

Very true.

And to make Windows 9 Microsoft really doesn't have a super lot to do. Strip Metro out, fix the start button, put Aero back in and a few other UI things and bingo, Windows 9.

I guess gadets are out now also... which is a shame because a few of them I really like, CPU Usage, Network meter and the AIDA64 gadget.

Desktop gadgets
Because we want to focus on the exciting possibilities of the newest version of Windows, the Windows website no longer hosts the gadget gallery.

[lutjens]

Oh and what is a really huge catastrophe is Valve's development cycle! WHERE THE HELL ARE THE NEW GAMES!!!! Come on! Where is the new Half Life game?

I agree. I think the reason why the HL2 Episode 3 debacle has been going on so long is that Gabe likes being one of the very few people who knows the progress with the game and when it'll be out, and he enjoys feeling special by being part of this exclusive group. He likes keeping us in the dark and enjoys watching folks analyze every twitch for even the hope of a clue toward an answer. The same kind of enjoyment a sadist gets by putting a mouse in an inescapable maze and watching him get so frustrated he eventually goes insane. I used to think relatively highly about him, but the years of absolute silence surrounding Episode 3 has really altered that mistaken impression. At this pont, IMHO, Gabe Newell ranks about the same level as pond scum.

Bottom line:There is NO excuse for how poorly fans of HL2 have been treated in regards to Episode 3...

[Kallenator]

You want some cheese with that whine?

It will be out when its done. As long as Valve work their "magic" into it and release something good when it's done then let them have it, it will be worth the "wait".

[Flanman]

since when were developers required to keep fans up to date on the progress of a game?

[G.Foyle]

Bottom line:There is NO excuse for how poorly fans of HL2 have been treated in regards to Episode 3...
Would you rather have Valve go the Blizzard way and do to H-L the same that Diablo 3 did to Diablo? Maybe they just couldn't make it good enough, so they put it on hold.

EDIT: interesting how Valve, Gabe Newell and H-L3 turn out to be a better conversation topic than Windows 8 :D

[lutjens]

You want some cheese with that whine?

It will be out when its done. As long as Valve work their "magic" into it and release something good when it's done then let them have it, it will be worth the "wait".

Five years of dead silence is inexcusable in my opinion. Some update, screenshots or some other news wouldn't be too difficult to offer. Are they even working on it? Who knows? At least be honest with folks and let them know if it's still being worked on, has been canned, etc...



since when were developers required to keep fans up to date on the progress of a game?

Usually you throw'em a bone once in a while rather than just perpetually keep them in the dark. You even throw a bone to a dog once in a while...fans of the franchise have received nada in five years. That tells me they consider fans of the franchise below the level of esteem in which they hold their dog.


Would you rather have Valve go the Blizzard way and do to H-L the same that Diablo 3 did to Diablo? Maybe they just couldn't make it good enough, so they put it on hold.

EDIT: interesting how Valve, Gabe Newell and H-L3 turn out to be a better conversation topic than Windows 8 :D

I can't see why they simply couldn't continue what they started. It's like an author writing a gripping three part novel and then abandoning it prior to completing the last volume. It's a pretty ignorant act, IMHO. If they feel they want to deliver a better experience for the final chapter and have delayed it for that reason then tell us!! I can't see the reason for the total silence over such a long period of time.

[Flanman]

if you're saying they treat their fans lower than a dog, than you should rethink your priorities and stop taking it so personally. it's a video game, yes, it's an amazing series but in the end, it's still just a video game and it's not the only thing valve has to bring revenue in.

author's get writer's block, would you prefer them to just make the game anyways and have it come out horrid?

[Greg83]

haha all the fans know about valve time already https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time

[Kain665]

Lutjens, you seems to be suffering from a bad case of only child syndrome :lol: you act like you're entitled to unlocked CPUs from Intel, or updates about HL3 from Valve...

[[XC] Lead Head]

I'm personally tired of companies leaking everything before their game/movie/tv-series/album comes out. Usually by the time you get the game, you already know the entire plot and all the levels. I'm not saying 5+ years between releases is acceptable" but god-forbid if they actually want to tell a story without it being spoiled before hand.

[lutjens]

Lutjens, you seems to be suffering from a bad case of only child syndrome :lol: you act like you're entitled to unlocked CPUs from Intel, or updates about HL3 from Valve...

There's no need for character insults here. The problem with the world today is that peope are far too accepting of circumstances that are undesirable. They refuse to speak up or speak out. If you're content to simply sit back, take what you're given as a consumer and not voice your displeasure with what you've been given, then you get what you get. This type of attitude is why governments and corporations run roughshod over the general public...because so few of them speak up. I know what I want, and I'm not afraid to pass my opinion along. If society found its voice, stood up for what was right and tolerated crap much less, this world would be a much better place.

And no, I'm not an only child, nor was I raised with a silver spoon in my mouth. I simply have little tolerance for stupidity or irreverant behavior and speak out against it freely and openly.

[tbone8ty]

they only catastrophe here is gabe's diet plan lol

[JH_man]

I think Win7 will be the defacto Windows plattform for many years, and I think Win8 will be more or less a fiasco in the game and business sector. It is a OS made for touch devices.

jarle

[zanzabar]

I think Win7 will be the defacto Windows plattform for many years, and I think Win8 will be more or less a fiasco in the game and business sector. It is a OS made for touch devices.

jarle

i am sure it will change rather quickly, they are even trying metro only for servers, since the choice of metro or command line only makes perfect sense.

[Aleki]

i think windows start to follow the same odd/even scheme then startrek movies :

95 bad / 98 good / millenium bad / XP good /vista bad / 7 good / 8 bad / 9 good
Seems like everyone skips over win 2k :P
I always thought it was more like: 98, meh / 98se, good / 2000, YES..

[DeathReborn]

Lutjens, you seems to be suffering from a bad case of only child syndrome :lol: you act like you're entitled to unlocked CPUs from Intel, or updates about HL3 from Valve...

Valve told us going Episodic meant quicker releases & as such we deserve an apology for the disaster that Episode 3 is, not just for gamers but for their own PR. I know Gabe said they've outgrown Episodic in favour of creating platforms that can be regularly updated (L4D2 is a prime example) but they still need to own up to misleading us.

[CrazyNutz]

I for one am very ecstatic about this. Also it has been in the works for years, there were hints to Linux support in the Mac client: http://downloadsquad.switched.com/2010/04/22/steam-new-mac-client-hints-at-linux-support/

Sure M$ has the market cornered on desktop OS's, however this Is just what linux needs to get some of that share.

[HelixPC]

Windows 8 is not bad at all, sure it's a little different. Linux is full of bugs with poor driver support. Till a big company puts some money into Linux and releases a stable client, I don't see anything happening for Linux again.

[DeltZ]

So valve makes their games linux compatible giving linux users a grand total of what? 5 games? A platform maybe nice but still requires developers to develop the games for linux as well. So maybe it's a start but as a similar point to totalbiscuits. Are typically open source efficiency centric linux users really going to want a 100% proprietary online irredeemable platform?

[MattiasNYC]

I think Win7 will be the defacto Windows plattform for many years, and I think Win8 will be more or less a fiasco in the game and business sector. It is a OS made for touch devices.

jarle

I think business people are absolutely not technical people. They use computers because they are tools, nothing else. The average Joe wants a simple way to access information. Metro is simple. It's more simple than Win7.

In addition businesses who were not liking the concept of paying for expensive Apple devices that needed "separate" support and more time for integration can now get their employees stuff that:

- is an easy and cheap upgrade from a previous platform (Win7)
- has a unified user experience over devices
- reduces tech support time (most likely)
- enables less spending (as MS tablets will likely be cheaper)

I think adaptation won't be quick, but I think it'll be solid.

[MattiasNYC]

Number of people who had some sort of vision of Linux gaining foothold in the consumer market = close to infinite.

Bitter reality = Linux market share on Consumer Pcs / Laptops is still in the single digits.

Lets face it, Kids go to school where they use Windows, when they are grown up they go on to work where they use Windows as well, obviously they are going to use Windows at home as well cause they are already familiar with it.
Then there is the issue of software compability, be it games, ms office, or whatever else, average joe doesn't want to give that all up and look for alternatives or workarounds, cause average jioe doesn't know how to do that.
Hell, there are enough people out there who can't tell what version of Windows they have, good luck convincing them with some argument that they should give up the comfort of it just works in favor of Linux.

+1...

[CrazyNutz]

Windows 8 is not bad at all, sure it's a little different. Linux is full of bugs with poor driver support. Till a big company puts some money into Linux and releases a stable client, I don't see anything happening for Linux again.

Linux has a huge share in the Server, and Super Computer space. In this market It's not buggy, nor does have poor driver support. It has replaced damn near every Unix OS, all the company's that once had their own unix dropped it and picked up linux. They support it, write drivers, fix bugs, and everyone benefits. This happened in part because Big company's supported it.

Now I see it heading for the same success for the desktop market. 1). Ubuntu works pretty damn good, 2). You have the massive company Google building consumer grade products with it. 3). Valve brings steam, and games to it. << This will make hardware manufactures support it even better.

I'm not a MS hater or anything but what I do hate is being trapped in their game with little option of going elsewhere.

[Lanek]

Seems like everyone skips over win 2k :P
I always thought it was more like: 98, meh / 98se, good / 2000, YES..

Seriously i just remember of windows 3.1 in 90's ... All the CAO software we was using for architecture and engineering was only used under DOS for access directly hardware and save performance, even our "internet" ( let say phone communication ) was working only under DOS ( for send drawing and " text mail " ).

@crazydriver: Linux is used in computing and server, space cause you can do what you want with this OS and specially use it as base for make your software environnement based on the specific task you need ( who are all different following the system and hardware ). They dont really use Linux, they use their own Linux they have code and develop for their hardware and tasks...

Windows server is too exremely used on standard database, entreprise server and even communication one ... let alone it is obviously a lot used on workstation spaces ....

Yes valve we bring games to it.. this is allready the case anyway as they do with MacOS ... but seriously if all the big developpers continue to dont adapt their games in OpenGL, it will not goes anywhere . outside some independant games allready developped without DirectX .. ( without saying, most of macuser who play games have a bootcamp with windows ).. One day i will be curious to make a little study of how many % of mac have windows installed on dualboot or virtualised ...

Linux can grow on professional space... for personal use, i fear it will be really hard..

[CrazyNutz]

@crazydriver: Linux is used in computing and server, space cause you can do what you want with this OS and specially use it as base for make your software environnement based on the specific task you need ( who are all different following the system and hardware ). They dont really use Linux, they use their own Linux they have code and develop for their hardware and tasks...

Yes I know exactly what it is used for, and what it has potential for. As a matter of fact I have been developing embedded products using linux since the late 90's.

I do not think in any way that this move by Valve will make Linux the king of PC gaming. However what I do know is this is a step in the right direction to help Linux become mainstream for desktop. Granted It may still have years to go but without support from company's like this it would probably never make it.

[Piledriver]

he had talked about the windows and mac app store, windows games for windows live integration and market, but said nothing of the UI problems. so basically MS will have bad steam rip off built in and he dose not want to have competition, and he is worried about MS bringing exclusives to its market as he dose not do any of that with steam ;).

They're worried about them making windows a closed system. If metro is successful enough in the future you might see a locked down version on x86 that is similar to WindowsRT. If they release a cheaper metro only version they could try and monetize everything like the xbox 360, all games would only come from the windows store and they could start charging for GFWL. Microsoft isn't even very friendly to PC gaming of late to begin with, they would rather you buy xbox games.
Makes sense now. :)

[Lanek]

Yes I know exactly what it is used for, and what it has potential for. As a matter of fact I have been developing embedded products using linux since the late 90's.

I do not think in any way that this move by Valve will make Linux the king of PC gaming. However what I do know is this is a step in the right direction to help Linux become mainstream for desktop. Granted It may still have years to go but without support from company's like this it would probably never make it.

Gaming side, what Linux need, is to have the game developpers who start make production for it, at least adapt the production they do for OpenGL, not DirectX 9.0, 10-11 based. then maybe start produce the games with it and then adapt them for directx ... but when i write this, i have the feeling to write a post i could have write 15 years ago ...

Linux have not the same problem who have directly put Apple down 3 times ... they dont have to sold their hardware for survive, It is just an OS .. This is a big advantage over Apple, who need sold hardware for exist ... And they dont need so much money need Apple.... If Apple start to loose sell, this is a domino.. Apple have most money outside the real world, in auction ( ( 1$ in capital for Apple mean 10.74$ in financial world ( 9.74$ this week after have annonce their Q2 results who have bring the market depressive )

Maybe Linux need a direction, a common objective, outside just be the "Open Plateform " .. The industry have not prepare the peoples to be free , they dont know what is the freedom, and when they got it, they just dont know how to use it, they dont know what to do when nobody tell them what they can do ... nobody so far have prepare the peoples to be free, everyone tell them if they do this, they could be free, but do they know what is freedom ? Result ? They sell their soul to some company as Facebook, Google, MS, Apple ... The idea of the Open and free who can bring Linux in this "technology " world.. is at 1 billions of miles of what the peoples who should use it, think is the freedom .. For them, the freedom is a service someone have offer them , something who bring them the capability to use this freedom, who make them think they are free, even if they are not ... someone tell them, if you use that, its mean you are free.. and they think they are .... ( i know it is sad ) ... Freedom is a marketing concept now ... Im too much cynic maybe...

[Spectrobozo]

windows app store (or whatever it's called) + Windows RT and the way it's closed is quite scary indeed...
if this is the way forward for MS and their plan for "x86" on the future... that's quite bad, so yes... hopefully Linux can gain some popularity and support on the next few years, so MS will need to take that into account,

[Syn.]

windows app store (or whatever it's called) + Windows RT and the way it's closed is quite scary indeed...
if this is the way forward for MS and their plan for "x86" on the future... that's quite bad, so yes... hopefully Linux can gain some popularity and support on the next few years, so MS will need to take that into account,

Wooooooooooo mmmmmmm very scary..... Almost as scary as Apple App Store and Google Play. Oh wait its not scary it is just an industry standard that was set by the two biggest market holders to date. Windows RT does not support x86, it is ARM only build of Windows.

I really do wish that Linux does gain market share. That way MS can innovate when they actually dare to without people and media bitc'in and moaning. Which is the most ironic thing. MS sits and wallows in its own market share and everyone moans that they aren't innovating. MS actually finds new innovative ways to change things and everyone moans that we want our old functions back. This negativity is so stupid it probably cant even breathe without being told to.

The thing is if you take a step back and look at all this FUD surrounding every new Windows release you will realise that it is just people who are afraid of change. I am sure all the cavemen where laughing at the first humans that built a house. Change happens, it will be positive as long as we adopt to it.

[Spectrobozo]

Wooooooooooo mmmmmmm very scary..... Almost as scary as Apple App Store and Google Play. Oh wait its not scary it is just an industry standard that was set by the two biggest market holders to date. Windows RT does not support x86, it is ARM only build of Windows.


exactly, as I said, it's scary to think about the PC, x86 adopting the same model on the future.
windows RT is closed and with their own software store (which will also be available on the PC version), if they enjoy great success with this model they could well start adopting it on their x86 version,

[mmorpgfocus]

I have a love hate relationship with Linux.

I have spent days with Linux machines trying to get HDMI 5.1 AC3 passthrough working. On Linux the open-source drivers are often better than the proprietary ones.

For instance AMD/ATI - if you want a Linux machine with any multimedia functionality you MUST buy NVIDIA or settle for integrated Intel graphics like HD4000. ATI proprietary brand Linux drivers are fundamentally broken. You CANNOT play back 1080P without terrible screen tearing with proprietary drivers.

NVIDIA gives Linux a little more love.

Linux is my dream - if it becomes viable to make Linux my #1 OS for high-end surround gaming I will abandon Microsoft in a heartbeat. At this point it is just not there and if Gave Newell has the power to make an open platform like Linux a SERIOUS competitor for gaming performance by getting - say - Intel and NVIDIA fully on board - I would hug the man.

Again though at this point you may think ATI drivers are bad on windows - you have no idea the horror of ATI's Linux drivers - again the OPEN SOURCE ATI driver works better for HD playback!! Mainly it does this by letting the CPU do a lot of lifting and just outputting the visual data - ATI is broken on Linux, and AMD/ATI don't seem to care to fix it.

I will not be buying Windows 8 - Microsoft will not turn my PC into an appliance with a closed system, and I already own 3 tablets - two running Android and one running iOS that I am quite happy with.

I like Windows 7 - and I will be sticking with it for years like many people did with Windows XP.

All it will take is a company like Valve and perhaps Red Hat, Inc. teaming up and all of the sudden the Windows monopoly is BROKEN - I don't think Microsoft quite realizes the opening they are giving to a company like RED HAT to take say - 15% of the ENTIRE CONSUMER PC SPACE.

[naokaji]

windows app store (or whatever it's called) + Windows RT and the way it's closed is quite scary indeed...


As long as they don't prevent installation of software from other sources it is not problem, but rather just another digital distribution platform.

[Spectrobozo]

As long as they don't prevent installation of software from other sources it is not problem, but rather just another digital distribution platform.

I agree, but isn't that exactly what's happening with the ARM version right now?
when they first announced "windows 8" on ARM that was not what I was expecting...

[Syn.]

exactly, as I said, it's scary to think about the PC, x86 adopting the same model on the future.
windows RT is closed and with their own software store (which will also be available on the PC version), if they enjoy great success with this model they could well start adopting it on their x86 version,

Did you read my reply correctly? I was not agreeing with you. x86 Windows will always stay open. Windows RT has not even been released yet and it has hardly been tested by anyone outside of MS. What the limits are for installing software on it has not yet been revealed. x86 versions of Windows 8 are going to support all the current systems of buying/installing programs. Being open to all forms of software is one of the main reasons why Windows became so dominant. MS is not going to dare and destroy its flagship product. Gabe is only moaning because like the majority of older Windows users he does not like change. He wants MS to leave him and Steam alone and not change anything he has learnt to rely on. If you remember he took PS3 to town because it was apparently a pain in the ass to program for. Few years went by and hey presto he is on Sony stage at the E3 announcing the "best" version of Portal 2 on the PS3. All you have to do is look at the way Gabe and Valve work and one thing you will notice is that while they don't mind experimenting with most things, Technology/Programming is not one of those things. For example they are yet to release anything that supports DX10/DX11 or OpenGL 4.x. Always just another refined version of DX9 Source Engine.

Windows RT is a version of Windows that is competing with iOS and Android. None of those products are full Desktop OS'es. They are all based on ARM chips not x86 and they all come with closed market stores. Stop pancaking and stop spreading FUD.

[NEOAethyr]

Oui...
I don't like steam, windows nor linux/posix...

Windows keeps so much hidden and it seems made for dummies or something.
Linux, some of the bugs never get fixed regardless of distro..., and it's a real mess.
Not a single distro is really good to go out of the box, but then again neither is windows.
But at least with windows it won't take me a day to figure out how to get something to work.
That's my fault, that's why i never got into it.

I wasn't gonna spend a huge amount of time fixing up an os and ensuring I could duplicate that process...
Especially when the outcome of it would be not so satisfying...
Gaming was the major point for me, it never really had it.

Just getting a console emu working in it would be a real pain in the butt.
I've worked with linux a little bit, compiling my own xfree parts and a few other odds and ends but that's about it.

In order to appease to the public you need a distro that isn't bugged out, and is pre-setup for anything you might need.
It doesn't need to be a giant iso, just something that runs and is ready-able to install this and run them without hassle.

Anyways, to me, it isnt' an os unless it has working gui AND cli elements...
Cli is not just some outdated input method..., it's still useful, and easy to dev for... well windows cli USED to be easy to dev for until win vista/7..., now in that respect it's plain better off to prog in win32 these days (not as fun... and easy) :( ...

[Spectrobozo]

Did you read my reply correctly? I was not agreeing with you. x86 Windows will always stay open. Windows RT has not even been released yet and it has hardly been tested by anyone outside of MS. What the limits are for installing software on it has not yet been revealed. x86 versions of Windows 8 are going to support all the current systems of buying/installing programs. Being open to all forms of software is one of the main reasons why Windows became so dominant. MS is not going to dare and destroy its flagship product. Gabe is only moaning because like the majority of older Windows users he does not like change. He wants MS to leave him and Steam alone and not change anything he has learnt to rely on. If you remember he took PS3 to town because it was apparently a pain in the ass to program for. Few years went by and hey presto he is on Sony stage at the E3 announcing the "best" version of Portal 2 on the PS3. All you have to do is look at the way Gabe and Valve work and one thing you will notice is that while they don't mind experimenting with most things, Technology/Programming is not one of those things. For example they are yet to release anything that supports DX10/DX11 or OpenGL 4.x. Always just another refined version of DX9 Source Engine.

Windows RT is a version of Windows that is competing with iOS and Android. None of those products are full Desktop OS'es. They are all based on ARM chips not x86 and they all come with closed market stores. Stop pancaking and stop spreading FUD.

did you read my posts? I think it's pretty clear that "windows rt" is "windows on arm", I don't know why you keep repeating, I was agreeing with you about that, but somehow you assumed I don't know about that...
as far as I know windows rt will be totally focused on their own app store like iOS,

anyway, MS showed a tablet using the x86 version, Intel has had plans for x86 on smartphones and tablets for while... I can see things changing on the future as I can see ARM low cost "desktops", and as I said, the thought of a possible more locked versions of Windows x86 (adopting the win rt model) is what I called "scary", and when you look at them unifying the UI and their app store on both versions...

[zanzabar]

RT is not only arm, it is also for super portable x86 (x86 without bios/efi and is missing controllers like the x86 intergraded devices that run windows CE now), so the phone and some tablets should be on RT with premium devices on the open platform. MS has also always supported running user generated code on CE platforms including windows phone 7 so i do not see them locking out homebrue or unsigned code from windows 8 rt but the masses will not have access to it since it will be hidden but the enthusiasts will have it. aMS is also quick with signing and not much money for a dev licenses (it is basically the cost of visual studio and you get a free copy of visual studios) and they do not charge for the 1st 10 submissions and no charge for small patches on paid apps once you buy in. they may have it more like the 360 were you are paying $50k a patch and giving them almost half the whole sale to get it in but i doubt they will go for that on a more open and competative platform.

RT apps also run on the pro OS, so it will be great when you can get small games to run on your computer and phone from the same purchases and have cloud saves so you can play whenever and wherever you are.

[[XC] Lead Head]

All you have to do is look at the way Gabe and Valve work and one thing you will notice is that while they don't mind experimenting with most things, Technology/Programming is not one of those things. For example they are yet to release anything that supports DX10/DX11 or OpenGL 4.x. Always just another refined version of DX9 Source Engine.

The Source engine has supported DX10 since at least 2010. If you have DX10+ hardware you can set "mat_dxlevel 98" in most Source games it will emulate DX9 using DX10 paths. L4D2 and perhaps maybe Portal 2 support "dx_level 100" which is native DX10 rendering.

[Tao~]

Gabe calls Win 8 a catastrophe but doesnt give any reasons. This coming out so soon after the post about Valve Linux client - seems like a promo to me.

More importantly, I never thought Win 8 added much to Win 7 - just another UI that can be turned off right ? Since the only purpose for Windows in my life is gaming - even Aero is a vexation. If they had made DX11 available on WinXP I doubt I'd needed Win7 either.

[Vinas]

I stopped listening to Gabe's emotional opinions on new/unreleased products after he appeared on Sony stage at last years E3. Funny how he stated loving the PS3 soon as Sony let him plug in Steam into it. Gabe is a good guy but i don't really rate his opinion when it to comes to anything else but games.

Oh and what is a really huge catastrophe is Valve's development cycle! WHERE THE HELL ARE THE NEW GAMES!!!! Come on! Where is the new Half Life game?good points, and all very true! :up:

[zanzabar]

Gabe calls Win 8 a catastrophe but doesnt give any reasons. This coming out so soon after the post about Valve Linux client - seems like a promo to me.

More importantly, I never thought Win 8 added much to Win 7 - just another UI that can be turned off right ? Since the only purpose for Windows in my life is gaming - even Aero is a vexation. If they had made DX11 available on WinXP I doubt I'd needed Win7 either.

you cannot turn metro off in the current windows 8 builds and they have removed most of the legacy UI including the start bar. you basically have a phone UI with alt tab to change open programs.

[BeepBeep2]

you cannot turn metro off in the current windows 8 builds and they have removed most of the legacy UI including the start bar. you basically have a phone UI with alt tab to change open programs.
+1.

Microsoft for some reason feels that the same OS should be run on everything from phones to Xbox to PC.

[herderien]

Seems like everyone skips over win 2k :P
I always thought it was more like: 98, meh / 98se, good / 2000, YES..

win2k was the professional version aka windows NT5 when millenium was the mainstream version ;)

[Nikolasz]

I will use any useful and good os.

[NEOAethyr]

+1.

Microsoft for some reason feels that the same OS should be run on everything from phones to Xbox to PC.

I think the reason for that is the same as my reasoning...
It can be done, if done decently.

This be microsoft's variation of it.
Right now it's very poor.
But give it 2-3 years, then it'll look just as good as the 360 ui... :\
And that's about all you could expect I think.

You know... in the end, gotta replace it anyways...
Just like a console, there software is crap/err.. not very special eh?, or maybe to special...

I would switch though.
Some of the ui is a little better/updated.
I don't care about the failed metro...
But the os is just so slow, hopefully final is on par with win7 performance wise.
I don't wanna hear about some new blah blah hocus pocus bs that increase the speed some un-relative app just in win8...
Like pcmark or whatever it was.

Metro I think is just not ready.
Why should we pay $300+ for a copy of windows that's not complete in any sort of sense of the word...
I can't be expected to use metro from the get go, no thank you.
I know enough how to use win8 as I would win7, but the way it's presented stock is pretty lame I think everyone agrees...

[MattiasNYC]

they have removed most of the legacy UI including the start bar.

What part of the Windows legacy user interface have they removed other than the start menu?

[zanzabar]

What part of the Windows legacy user interface have they removed other than the start menu?

aero, the start button, random things from explorer (and forcing the ribbon on you,) some builds are missing the close, minimize, and maximize. they literally made it as close to a phone as you can get and pushed all of the UI changes that people disable, but forgot that you cannot multi touch on a monitor and there are not really any existing touch screen consumer things that run windows. they also make you hit the windows key alot (you can bind it to a mouse key as well but it is supper annoying.)

when it was originally shown, they had metro running like active desktop for windows 7 and looked fine but they went off the deep end with how the last build was. i think that the worst thing is that server 2012 or whatever windows 8 server is going to be has command line or metro and they are going to make the new exchange/sql server only work on the new OS.

on the positive side, they did alot of work on the IO scheduler to keep a task on one cpu and to ignore the fake cores on amd and the HT threads on intel for non ideal work loads and 2p efficiency, but for the desktop i see no reason to use it and for servers i do not think that anyone will be happy but will be forced to begrudgingly use it.

[CrazyNutz]

There's a reg hack to enable the start menu, so there is some hope i suppose. Then again who wants to shell out $$ for a new OS that you have to hack to make it usable?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CAuvlmPbJE

[zanzabar]

There's a reg hack to enable the start menu, so there is some hope i suppose. Then again who wants to shell out $$ for a new OS that you have to hack to make it usable?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CAuvlmPbJE

that video is old, all of those were removed and the assets for the classic UI were completely removed.

[EvilOne]

It took 30 sec and a few clicks to make Win7 look like XP, im guessing its not possable to make Win8 look like Win7 (or XP). Not tried it yet.

[CrazyNutz]

:shocked:
that video is old, all of those were removed and the assets for the classic UI were completely removed.
Then it is doomed :shakes:

Oh well then it's win7 (which i'm perfectly fine with) until win9

[rintamarotta]

Start8, ViStart and Classic Shell still work and is able to add start menu even tough ViStart and Classic Shell completly coded their own start menu but Start8 still uses microsoft start menu so it will make Startmenu sized MetroUI, even that is better than current.

Ill get you screenshot later about that startmenu if i7 3770k machine doesnt get frozen in Win8.

[phantomferrari]

you cannot turn metro off in the current windows 8 builds and they have removed most of the legacy UI including the start bar. you basically have a phone UI with alt tab to change open programs.

That is the reason a lot of us dont like it, but are those the reasons Gabe calls it a catastrophe? I'm not sure about that

[rintamarotta]

Here is screenshot from my Windows 8 Release Preview and installed Classic Shell.
It works really well and i havent found any bugs so far from it, plan on changing start button icon to something else that suits rest of the windows theme better.

(Images are really large so i will only link them here, theyre uploaded to imageshack)
Windows 8 RP ClassicShell 1 (http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/6266/windows8rpclassicshell.jpg)
Windows 8 RP ClassicShell 2 (http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/5518/windows8rpclassicshell2d.jpg)
Windows 8 RP ClassicShell 3 (http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/6153/windows8rpclassicshell3.jpg)

Since Windows 8 RP received windows updates, i havent seen even single hang on i7 3770k, Asus Maximus IV Extreme-Z, 16Gb Ram and GTX570 test machine.

[paulbagz]

Eh I don't mind Win8/Metro at all now after using it for a solid month, its even hard in some respects to go back to Win7.

Adapt to change or get left behind. This style or way of doing things (re: Metro, App programming etc) isn't going anywhere.

Just look at the Office 2013 RP and Server 8 Beta's (the other major chunk of Microsoft's revenue).

Yeah its annoying on desktops at first (tis great on Tablets/touch devices), but I think developers and end users should embrace the change.

-PB

[DeathReborn]

Richard Stallman of GNU & FSF isn't entirely happy with Steam on Linux on the basis of "freedom" and "non-free software". His blog post if linked below:

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/nonfree-games.en.html

[EniGmA1987]

Why does something HAVE to be free if it is on Linux? It doesnt. To call games that arent free unethical is very shortsighted. If every developer in the world started to work for free, we would not longer have A+ titles around because all our developers would only be able to work in their spare time after their new boring job they are forced to get. Why should those developers be punished so that someone can enforce their idea of getting everything for free? The world doesnt work that way.

[Manicdan]

To call games that arent free unethical is very shortsighted.

agreed 100%. i cant imagine a world where everything is a donation.

lets imagine i dont pay for my cell, car, cable, utilis, rent, school, ect. then i also shoudnt be paid anything either since i dont have to pay for anything, and so i would have to do "volunteer" work instead of having a job
if everything is worked out perfectly where we didnt earn anything or spend anything, all we did was create a 100% socialist economy (right?).

[[XC] Lead Head]

You are mixing up Monetary "Free" with Open-Source "Free". You can have "Free" software that still costs money.

[Kallenator]

lets imagine i dont pay for my cell, car, cable, utilis, rent, school, ect. then i also shoudnt be paid anything either since i dont have to pay for anything, and so i would have to do "volunteer" work instead of having a job
if everything is worked out perfectly where we didnt earn anything or spend anything, all we did was create a 100% socialist economy (right?).

What you are implying reminds me of Star Trek economy, just minus the replicators :D
http://stexpanded.wikia.com/wiki/United_Federation_of_Planets#Economy

Apart from that I do not think you fully understand what makes an economy socialistic, economies used today in different forms are quite complex. If you are interested in reading up on it, then I suggest a trip to wiki ;)
We should not continue discussing this here, we might open a can of worms and attract the vacation hammer ^^


I think Richard Stallman is a bit too eccentric for his own good. "Why Software Should Be Free by Richard Stallman" is just one example.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html

[tiro_uspsss]

Lead Head;5122658']Agreed. Install ATI proprietary drivers on linux, my card immediately gets warmer, video playback is not as smooth as it was with the generic drivers. Uninstall the proprietary drivers, the system no longer starts X or even boots to the command line. My mouse does not work correctly either.

It's silly nonsense stuff like the above that will prevent Linux distributions from going mainstream. It certainly doesn't help that many small, silly, commonly used system administrative tasks still can't be performed through the GUI.

IMO, Google had the right idea. Bury the CLI, and get the GUI portion right so you won't ever need the CLI. As long as desktop distributions still need fiddling in the CLI on a semi-often basis, Linux will not succeed.

++++++++++++11111111111 seriously. I willing to give Linux a go. So I did. Late last year I think it was... pathetic. So much command prompt crap to still do :down: I thought apples one button mouse sucked, but linux's fetish for the keyboard is scary - I have a mouse & its easier & quicker to use, GUI please!

[alpha0ne]

++++++++++++11111111111 seriously. I willing to give Linux a go. So I did. Late last year I think it was... pathetic. So much command prompt crap to still do :down: I thought apples one button mouse sucked, but linux's fetish for the keyboard is scary - I have a mouse & its easier & quicker to use, GUI please!

But that's the way its designed, so only coders have even half a clue how to use Linux :rolleyes:

[Kallenator]

I decided a couple of years ago when the netbooks came out that I would start playing with slim Linux distros, because of the limited processing power. And I started with Arch Linux which many of you in here might know is not the easiest place to start, however they have such an extensive wiki, and if your specific laptop is in that wiki then its pretty straight forward. The cool thing is that the super slow Atom N270 boots fast on Arch Linux, very fast.
Thing is that most of what you have to do is setting up basic features that should have been there from the start, which is why I have started to use CrunchBangLinux instead, which is much simpler and is basically a slim Ubuntu. However, drivers is an issue, the only one in my eyes. The rest is pretty plug and play.

The hardcore Linux users have a Keyboard fetish, kinda agree with that, but given that I for one used DOS to get into my games when I was a child has made me like console, there is beauty to it. I also think that about the Linux boot screen.

To save a bit of money I also use Linux on my workstation, where I am running Windows in Vmware over Ubuntu (It's excellent for redundancy btw). No issues so far.

[NapalmV5]

the 'catastrophe,' is the billions of poor making gabe newell/valve/microsoft multi billionaires :yepp:

[N19h7m4r3]

But that's the way its designed, so only coders have even half a clue how to use Linux :rolleyes:

So it's designed to never gain popularity and stay in the background for ever?

That's stupid. Some distros really do try and make it user friednly. Sadly it's not close enough to Windows or OSX just yet in that regard.
Like Tiro and Lead Head I think the less amount of CLI the better. As it'll allow more people to try and use it, that along with slowing getting games on it will make it gain popularity.

In my College I only knew of one person that liked linux, and yet in the end he ended up the most die-hard Apple fan out there.
Even in the college Software Development and Games Development courses Linux is but an afterthought, with just the basics taught.

Windows is extremely prevalant and this needs to change. I had Linux on my original Asus Eee Pad, and it was usable, but there's so much room for improvement.

Personaly I can't stand Win8, and I wish Vavle all the best in bringing more games to Linux, even if it's just Ubuntu at the start.

I do hope more developers focus on OpenGL in the future compared to DX as well.

[Motiv]

Whenever I try and use linux, I feel someone behind me has a sign saying "Welcome to 1990"

[Manicdan]

Whenever I try and use linux, I feel someone behind me has a sign saying "Welcome to 1990"

when i tried linux, i feel like the sign says "your not smart enough to use this OS"

really i just dont care to invest so much time in learning something that will make no difference in my everyday life.

[DeathReborn]

Even John Carmack @ QuakeCon 2012 isn't seeing Linux as a successful gaming platform. Has Gabe bitten off more than he can chew?

I personally would like more games on Linux natively & better drivers but right now that is nothing but a pipe dream and will stay that way while Linux fails to make the break from geek to chic. I don't want the CLI buried and never used but I want it to be optional from inserting the Disc to end of use. A GUI is not the devil and it's about time they caught up with modern societies limits on complexity.

[Particle]

No kidding. Back in 2006 when I last seriously played with Linux, doing something like installing a video driver was usually a 1-6 hour affair with the console. Of course it was never supposed to take that long, it's just that nothing ever worked the way it was supposed to, guides were always out of date, and problems had to be resolved by chasing down arcane error messages and tracing out dependencies that were inevitably no longer generally available and not managed by the package manager.

[Vardant]

Even John Carmack @ QuakeCon 2012 isn't seeing Linux as a successful gaming platform. Has Gabe bitten off more than he can chew?What do you really need from an OS anyway these days? Browser, game support, working video and other drivers and some audio/video player. That's it.

They can easily build all that on top of a distro and call it a Steam OS. If it ran games faster, like they showed us, then I could see this happen.

[DeathReborn]

What do you really need from an OS anyway these days? Browser, game support, working video and other drivers and some audio/video player. That's it.

They can easily build all that on top of a distro and call it a Steam OS. If it ran games faster, like they showed us, then I could see this happen.

LLinux I hoped would become a truly modular OS where you get basic functionality as standard and bolt on extra modules for Multimedia, Gaming, Tweaking etc. A Steam OS would be a start although they still need to get better driver support and hopefully those "optimisations" in the Linux version of L4D2 are made to the Windows version too.

[EniGmA1987]

What do you really need from an OS anyway these days? Browser, game support, working video and other drivers and some audio/video player. That's it.

They can easily build all that on top of a distro and call it a Steam OS. If it ran games faster, like they showed us, then I could see this happen.


And probably get a lot better driver support for their OS as well because of Steam's following and the easy of burden for AMD/Nvidia by knowing what major distro they would support with driver builds.

[gosh]

OpenGL will excel as mobile phones is gaining speed.

[Syn.]

The truth is finally revealed:


Steam Expands Beyond Games
Press Releases - Valve 18:50
Launch Set of "Software" Titles Coming Sept 5

Aug 8, 2012 -- Valve, creators of best-selling game franchises (such as Counter-Strike, Half-Life, Left 4 Dead, Portal, and Team Fortress) and leading technologies (such as Steam and Source), today announced the first set of Software titles are heading to Steam, marking a major expansion to the platform most commonly known as a leading destination for PC and Mac games.

The Software titles coming to Steam range from creativity to productivity. Many of the launch titles will take advantage of popular Steamworks features, such as easy installation, automatic updating, and the ability to save your work to your personal Steam Cloud space so your files may travel with you.

More Software titles will be added in an ongoing fashion following the September 5th launch, and developers will be welcome to submit Software titles via Steam Greenlight.

"The 40 million gamers frequenting Steam are interested in more than playing games," said Mark Richardson at Valve. "They have told us they would like to have more of their software on Steam, so this expansion is in response to those customer requests."

http://store.steampowered.com/news/8584/

[naokaji]

if steam starts selling software other than games there might actually be a chance a valve linux distro could have some success as it would allow them to make linux compatible software far more visible than it is these days.

[Manicdan]

so steam will eventually run linux?

next thing on their list is to turn that into a console maybe...

/conspiracy

[zanzabar]

so steam will eventually run linux?

next thing on their list is to turn that into a console maybe...

/conspiracy

as long as they still support all platforms it cannot be to bad of a move to get a gaming linux distro or a console from a company that likes games.

[herderien]

Lead Head;5124450']You are mixing up Monetary "Free" with Open-Source "Free". You can have "Free" software that still costs money.

very true

[Syn.]

if steam starts selling software other than games there might actually be a chance a valve linux distro could have some success as it would allow them to make linux compatible software far more visible than it is these days.

No need for a Valve distro. They will just make Steam work with Ubuntu.

[Chrono Detector]

I just tried out Windows 8 and it is a POS. The Metro design does not work for a desktop computer. Dunno WTF was Microsoft thinking when they designed it, and they thought the Start button usage was declining, don't know what kind of crack they were smoking when they said that.

[El Mano]

I just tried out Windows 8 and it is a POS. The Metro design does not work for a desktop computer. Dunno WTF was Microsoft thinking when they designed it, and they thought the Start button usage was declining, don't know what kind of crack they were smoking when they said that.

I don't even use desktop icons, only Start button and typing.

[MrToad]

I don't even use desktop icons, only Start button and typing.

^ That...

I suppose MS thinks this is what UIs are going to be about for the next few years and they want to push the technology.

As with everything new is a all a learning curve, but I didn't notice an improvements in the way I interact with the OS.

I'll give it another shot when it goes retail, for now I'm not really in a rush to upgrade.

[MattiasNYC]

I just tried out Windows 8 and it is a POS. The Metro design does not work for a desktop computer. Dunno WTF was Microsoft thinking when they designed it, and they thought the Start button usage was declining, don't know what kind of crack they were smoking when they said that.

How many people are using "the start button" in Mac OSX?

[Greg83]

now one thing i was noticing. wouldn't steam's own game area work great with the metro ui. like a plugin.
aidi64. oh well still metro would be great embedded in the desktop optionally or default when tablet detected.

[Syn.]

I don't even use desktop icons, only Start button and typing.

Why?

[[XC] Lead Head]

Why?
Faster to hit windows key then type what program I want, then to sort through a maze of desktop icons.

[zanzabar]

How many people are using "the start button" in Mac OSX?

how many people compain since they nuke the battery in their laptops by never closing anything, and how many people on macs only use the web browser and itunes. you have to know your target and MS seams to have not asked biz or core users.

[HelixPC]

If there was an option to disable that BS metro, and put in place a start button, windows 8 could have been great.

[El Mano]

Why?


Lead Head;5127297']Faster to hit windows key then type what program I want, then to sort through a maze of desktop icons.

This. It's way faster. All the few desktop icons I have are hidden, I can only see my clean wallpaper.
MS did a good job with the Start button interface in Windows 7, I like it a lot and if Windows 8 doesn't use it I can't see myself adopting it soon.

[MattiasNYC]

how many people compain since they nuke the battery in their laptops by never closing anything, and how many people on macs only use the web browser and itunes. you have to know your target and MS seams to have not asked biz or core users.

The point is that Apple's OSX and iOS have been praised by a great deal of people for the user friendly interface. No start button necessary. That's the point I'm making.

The criticism of Win 8 just seems extremely out of proportion to the changes actually made. I've asked a gazillion times how many more clicks are necessary to open an application or a program in Win 8 versus Win 7, and people either don't answer or give a run-around reply. The difference is insignificant.

[zanzabar]

The point is that Apple's OSX and iOS have been praised by a great deal of people for the user friendly interface. No start button necessary. That's the point I'm making.

The criticism of Win 8 just seems extremely out of proportion to the changes actually made. I've asked a gazillion times how many more clicks are necessary to open an application or a program in Win 8 versus Win 7, and people either don't answer or give a run-around reply. The difference is insignificant.

OSX has a terrible desktop UI, and IOs dose not support multitasking (it supports switching but not multitasking other than things like itunes,) and it has every program on the desktop. i do not think that metro is the problem ether as making it mandatory would not be so bad. the problem is that metro and windows do not get along. if you are going to name your OS windows it needs to be based on using windows. they removed the task bar, how can you call it windows with no task bar, even OSX has a task bar.

[Piledriver]

OSX has a terrible desktop UI, and IOs dose not support multitasking (it supports switching but not multitasking other than things like itunes,) and it has every program on the desktop. i do not think that metro is the problem ether as making it mandatory would not be so bad. the problem is that metro and windows do not get along. if you are going to name your OS windows it needs to be based on using windows. they removed the task bar, how can you call it windows with no task bar, even OSX has a task bar.
:shakes::shakes:


Windows 8 haters,

"I don't like how it looks, where is the transparency? But i'm supposed to be a "power user" "tech savvy", i got to rationalize my girlish dislike for an OS, so i'm going to convince myself that i don't like it for other reasons, and bother everyone else with my whining while doing it so"

[Manicdan]

for my work machine i keep my most popular dozen or so apps on the task bar. i never go to my desktop nor do i even search for apps.

with metro i think people will be happy after they customize it. almost everything you need would be within 3 or so clicks and no typing needed. if you do have to search, the win7 search under start was xtremely incredible and better live on.

[zanzabar]

i did not think that i was hating outside of the hate threads, and i have been an early adopter of xp and vista so i normally go with MS. and when we get a quick win8 sp1 with the task bar and classic UI returning with metro as active desktop my complaints will be justified.

[Callsign_Vega]

Windows 7 will be around for a looong time. Win 8 is just a silly toy for tablets.

[Syn.]

Lead Head;5127297']Faster to hit windows key then type what program I want, then to sort through a maze of desktop icons.

Why not just organise your desktop? It takes me 1 to 2 mouse clicks to open 99% of programs i ever want to use. Seems like the hatred for Start Screen (Metro does not exist any more) comes from folks that used Start Menu exclusively. Can you not see Start Screen as a secondary Desktop where you can open your programs in 2 mouse clicks and still keep your Desktop wallpaper clean?

Edit:
Just checked Win8 for you. You can still use the Start Screen the same way you used the start menu. Just press Win key and type. To me it looks like MS took your way of using Windows and expanded it on it. Gave you more features and better search results in Start Screen over Start Menu. I don't know if you tired it, but it seems like Win8 is built with guys like you in mind.

[solofly]

I'll be getting two Copies of Windows 8 for my two main rigs as I always do...:) (I gotta make sure I don't fall behind)

[Flanman]

I'll be getting two Copies of Windows 8 for my two main rigs as I always do...:)

i just put w7 on my computer a few months ago so it'll probably be about 5 years till i get 8...lol

[Miwo]

Seems Gabe Newell has become the Michael Moore of the video game industry. It doesn't help he looks like him too

[solofly]

:)...

[MattiasNYC]

OSX has a terrible desktop UI, and IOs dose not support multitasking (it supports switching but not multitasking other than things like itunes,) and it has every program on the desktop.

That's completely besides the point I'm making. My point isn't what you or I think (we both use windows apparently), my point is that many people prefer OSX over Windows, and they prefer it A LOT. So if they can make do without a start button on OSX I'm sure they can on Win 8. People get used to it.


the problem is that metro and windows do not get along.

How do they interfere with each other? As far as I can tell Metro is sort of like an extended start button that you can run "apps" on. The desktop is still there for running other programs.


if you are going to name your OS windows it needs to be based on using windows. they removed the task bar, how can you call it windows with no task bar, even OSX has a task bar.

LoL... I think it's probably up to Microsoft to decide if it can be called "Windows" or not. Personally, as long as it has a desktop and a way to access files in folder-structures etc I'm fine with calling it "Windows". They could call it "washer-dryer" for all I care. As long as it performs as advertized I'm fine with it.

[MattiasNYC]

Why not just organise your desktop? It takes me 1 to 2 mouse clicks to open 99% of programs i ever want to use. Seems like the hatred for Start Screen (Metro does not exist any more) comes from folks that used Start Menu exclusively. Can you not see Start Screen as a secondary Desktop where you can open your programs in 2 mouse clicks and still keep your Desktop wallpaper clean?

Edit:
Just checked Win8 for you. You can still use the Start Screen the same way you used the start menu. Just press Win key and type. To me it looks like MS took your way of using Windows and expanded it on it. Gave you more features and better search results in Start Screen over Start Menu. I don't know if you tired it, but it seems like Win8 is built with guys like you in mind.

Yeah yeah yeah.... "but still".....

[zanzabar]

Seems Gabe Newell has become the Michael Moore of the video game industry. It doesn't help he looks like him too

i would love to hohn and me, with gabe track down john riccitiello and demand an answer to the mass firings and low quality products coming out of the studios that they buy out.

[Piledriver]

I don't even use desktop icons, only Start button and typing.

Lead Head;5127297']Faster to hit windows key then type what program I want, then to sort through a maze of desktop icons.


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xsspne_windows-8-search_tech


:rolleyes:

[Syn.]

Yeah yeah yeah.... "but still".....

At least you didnt just say "Because..."


How do they interfere with each other? As far as I can tell Metro is sort of like an extended start button that you can run "apps" on. The desktop is still there for running other programs.

There is no Metro. Metro was a "code name" for new UI design. The actual thing that people are getting annoyed with is called Start Screen. But hey just because you dont know what its called or how to use it does not mean you cant hate it.

http://www.neowin.net/news/is-metro-now-called-modern-ui

[zanzabar]

it was metro as a UI name, but the german store metro ag threatened a suit over trademark infringement. it is now called windows 8 UI in the feature set or modern UI depending on what you look at, but the MS blogs and RTM before patches still refer to it as metro.

[[XC] Lead Head]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xsspne_windows-8-search_tech


:rolleyes:
..and how is that any better than the start menu? Instead of just popping up a little box, it now obscures my entire screen.

[Dr.Paneas]

This time Linux needs your support guys. Only when hardcore overclockers will start benching games in Linux and OpenGL then hardware vendors will see another feasible market. Currently Valve is cooperating with Intel. NVidia and AMD on developing better and better drivers. All the Linux and community needs is you! As a 10years now linux and windows user I am currently searching for benchers like you to bench in Linux. If you are interested to participate to this journey let me know by sending me a PM. New age is about to rise soon enough, and we need to get ready and be prepared to rock out. Now what if you can run at 6Ghz easily without crashing the kernel or measuring Cpu synthetic benchmarks without the need of Gui? Ubuntu is the key here, simple and works for everyone using a mouse.

[Syn.]

Lead Head;5127515']..and how is that any better than the start menu? Instead of just popping up a little box, it now obscures my entire screen.

Damn, you really are nit picking here. Dont worry i am sure that developers at MS are really sorry that they ever dared to cover up your wallpaper.

[N19h7m4r3]

Lead Head;5127515']..and how is that any better than the start menu? Instead of just popping up a little box, it now obscures my entire screen.

I feel the same way.

If I'm multi tasking and I have a show or something on and want to open something I don't want to go to a completely new screen and take away from what I'm busy watching or doing. It's a pointless waste of time and screen real estate.

[SKYMTL]

This time Linux needs your support guys.

No thanks. Open source is all nice when you talk about it but in practice, there's far too many hands stirring the pot for it to receive the directionality and focus other operating systems have.

[[XC] Lead Head]

Damn, you really are nit picking here. Dont worry i am sure that developers at MS are really sorry that they ever dared to cover up your wallpaper.
Excuse me, It's not nitpicking. How is covering up every single thing I'm working on or looking at not worse than the classic start menu? More than one person here agrees with me too. I don't like a ton of icons on my desktop is my screen resolution is only 1366x768. Screen space is important with such a low resolution, working with a bunch of files, pictures, etc..which I sometimes do would be impossible with a desktop full of icons.

Also my primary keyboard does not have a windows key.

[Piledriver]

Lead Head;5127515']..and how is that any better than the start menu? Instead of just popping up a little box, it now obscures my entire screen.
1 - "I don't even use desktop shortcuts", "Faster to hit the windows key and type the program i want"
2 - Video showing how that behavior is improved in win8
3 - "How is that better?" "it obscures my screen!"

Thanks both massively proving the point of post #113 of this thread.


I feel the same way.

If I'm multi tasking and I have a show or something on and want to open something I don't want to go to a completely new screen and take away from what I'm busy watching or doing. It's a pointless waste of time and screen real estate.
I don't know if i show congratulate for defying the laws of physics, for being able to to other stuff WHILE doing a windows search, impressive how you don't miss a single frame of a movie or how you can still keep writing on word, WHILE doing a windows search, or present my condolences for not understanding that is the computer that multi tasks, not you. And indeed, faster search is a waste of time and screen.


You like to make a mess of the desktop and taskbar? U still can with win8.
You don' like shortcuts? Like to search? Win8 search is a lot faster and better.
Like to use the start menu and the pin apps? With Win8 you can pin all the apps you want, with win7 you are limited by your height resolution.
Freshly installed app? With Win8 you scroll left and click on the app, with win7 you select all programs, select the folder of the app, click on the app.

Win8 start screen is better in any possible approach. period. And i let's you run apps, like the remote desktop app, that allows me to swamp between desktops in such a simple and fast way that win7 can't touch.


Wanna keep playing crysis 1 in windows 7, go for it , just stop annoying the rest of the world while it moves on, 'kay? We get it, you guys are incredible cool, and not mainstream. :shakes:


Now i will walk away, it's like arguing with crazy homeless people.

[MattiasNYC]

Lead Head;5127711']Excuse me, It's not nitpicking. How is covering up every single thing I'm working on or looking at not worse than the classic start menu?

It's not much worse because if you're trying to open a program then that's what you're "working on" for those 4-5 seconds, not other stuff. And I'm guessing most people who currently use the Win 7 start menu actually end up looking at it.


Lead Head;5127711']I don't like a ton of icons on my desktop is my screen resolution is only 1366x768. Screen space is important with such a low resolution, working with a bunch of files, pictures, etc..which I sometimes do would be impossible with a desktop full of icons.

Fair enough. Has nothing to do with obscuring your screen other than that there's apparently less stuff to be covered by the start screen.


Lead Head;5127711']Also my primary keyboard does not have a windows key.

Hardly the fault of MS though, is it?

[Greg83]

is it really that big of a deal since we've already found ways of bypassing the metro stuff. in no time flat we'll have high speed windows 7 looking windows 8's. i'd atleast hope so lol

[[XC] Lead Head]

1 - "I don't even use desktop shortcuts", "Faster to hit the windows key and type the program i want"
2 - Video showing how that behavior is improved in win8
3 - "How is that better?" "it obscures my screen!"

Thanks both massively proving the point of post #113 of this thread.
Windows 7: Type in the program you want, it gives you the program you want.


I don't know if i show congratulate for defying the laws of physics, for being able to to other stuff WHILE doing a windows search, impressive how you don't miss a single frame of a movie or how you can still keep writing on word, WHILE doing a windows search, or present my condolences for not understanding that is the computer that multi tasks, not you. And indeed, faster search is a waste of time and screen.
It's quite easy to watch a video and still be searching for something. Not my problem if you have terrible peripheral vision or lack the mental faculties of keeping track of more than one thing at the same time.


You don' like shortcuts? Like to search? Win8 search is a lot faster and better.
My search results appear instantly.


Like to use the start menu and the pin apps? With Win8 you can pin all the apps you want, with win7 you are limited by your height resolution.
Freshly installed app? With Win8 you scroll left and click on the app, with win7 you select all programs, select the folder of the app, click on the app.
I type the name of the program, and it shows up instantly.


Wanna keep playing crysis 1 in windows 7, go for it , just stop annoying the rest of the world while it moves on, 'kay? We get it, you guys are incredible cool, and not mainstream. :shakes:
Yes, because using Windows 7 is not "mainstream". I don't like the Windows 8 UI, it doesn't work well for me. You take it personally like I'm desecrating your mothers grave. Get a grip man.

I'm not some kind of person that's afraid of change either. I ditched Windows XP as far back as the Vista Beta, used Vista, Windows 7 Beta, then finally Windows 7. I've had no problems with any previous UI change.

[EniGmA1987]

1 - "I don't even use desktop shortcuts", "Faster to hit the windows key and type the program i want"
2 - Video showing how that behavior is improved in win8
3 - "How is that better?" "it obscures my screen!"

Thanks both massively proving the point of post #113 of this thread.


I don't know if i show congratulate for defying the laws of physics, for being able to to other stuff WHILE doing a windows search, impressive how you don't miss a single frame of a movie or how you can still keep writing on word, WHILE doing a windows search, or present my condolences for not understanding that is the computer that multi tasks, not you. And indeed, faster search is a waste of time and screen.


You like to make a mess of the desktop and taskbar? U still can with win8.
You don' like shortcuts? Like to search? Win8 search is a lot faster and better.
Like to use the start menu and the pin apps? With Win8 you can pin all the apps you want, with win7 you are limited by your height resolution.
Freshly installed app? With Win8 you scroll left and click on the app, with win7 you select all programs, select the folder of the app, click on the app.

Win8 start screen is better in any possible approach. period. And i let's you run apps, like the remote desktop app, that allows me to swamp between desktops in such a simple and fast way that win7 can't touch.


Wanna keep playing crysis 1 in windows 7, go for it , just stop annoying the rest of the world while it moves on, 'kay? We get it, you guys are incredible cool, and not mainstream. :shakes:


Now i will walk away, it's like arguing with crazy homeless people.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and most do not like Windows 8 user interface. personally, my opinion right now is that none of your arguments make a single bit of sense to me.

[Biznatch]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and most do not like Windows 8 user interface. personally, my opinion right now is that none of your arguments make a single bit of sense to me.

Most didn't like the changes they made from XP to vista/7 at first either, and look where we are today. This is nothing but a bunch of people whining about MS changing something. It's not that it's metro, it's that it's new/a change. It doesn't matter what they did to the GUI, everyone would still be crying about it and claiming they were going to stay on 7 forever.

[Syn.]

Most didn't like the changes they made from XP to vista/7 at first either, and look where we are today. This is nothing but a bunch of people whining about MS changing something. It's not that it's metro, it's that it's new/a change. It doesn't matter what they did to the GUI, everyone would still be crying about it and claiming they were going to stay on 7 forever.

Exactyl! And as much as people like to moan about every little change made i still cant stop my self from trying to convince such people to open their minds. I have to say that this time it is a less of a problem. With Win7 and Win8 being such close siblings at least those of us that do switch to Win8 wont be heavily limited by Win7 users like the XP users did.

[naokaji]

Windows 8 threads would be so much different if people actually used it for a month or so before complaining about it. Sorry, just had to say it.

[SKYMTL]

Windows 8 threads would be so much different if people actually used it for a month or so before complaining about it. Sorry, just had to say it.

I gave it a try for 3 weeks. I just couldn't get into it with a mouse / keyboard. However, I think it will be brilliant in tablet form.

[Carbon_Unit]

I tried using it for a week, in fact forced myself to use it as my main OS. Win8 ended up annoying more far more than it helped me, I gave up on it. For touch devices it could be the greatest thing around I honestly don't know, but that does not help desktop/mouse user at all.

[Manicdan]

shouldnt a mouse and touch be quite similar anyway?

ill reserve judgment for when its out, since things only need a slight change anyway to feel a whole ton different.

[eXa]

Im most likely stick to W7 until W9 or something...

[zanzabar]

shouldnt a mouse and touch be quite similar anyway?

ill reserve judgment for when its out, since things only need a slight change anyway to feel a whole ton different.

the mouse is like single touch, it is made for multi touch, there is also windows and back keys at the bottom of the tablet but not on the pc UI, you could bind them on the mouse but there needs to be something done about that like an optional start button. like red said we skymtl said you have to use it for a month or so 1st, but the lack of the task bar and start button seam like a good reason not to change over as a desktop/non touche screen user. if they would just bring the classic start bar back then 99% of the problems people have with it would be gone, and i expect them to do that.

[Solus Corvus]

Frankly, I don't care much for windows and don't care at all about OSX. Making steam and some games available for linux is a good thing that could lead to great things, IMO. Games are one of the last reasons I run windows. With the games available for linux (mainly ID engine games) I always preferred to play them under linux. I usually had the same or better FPS and always better ping under linux. Linux definitely has the superior networking stack and the video drivers usually performed well.

Bye bye windows partition.

[CrazyNutz]

Linux FTW!

I'm an old school linux (slackware) user. However have you guys even tried ubuntu linux? It's super easy to work with, and for the most part it just works with everything right out of the box. Also I've used nvidia's linux drivers without any issues many times.

Guy's bringing decent gaming/games to linux is really going to set it off.

[STEvil]

Damn, you really are nit picking here. Dont worry i am sure that developers at MS are really sorry that they ever dared to cover up your wallpaper.

I'm curious as to at what point you think its a good idea to cover a users work area with something that is not of use to them?

[Manicdan]

the mouse is like single touch, it is made for multi touch, there is also windows and back keys at the bottom of the tablet but not on the pc UI, you could bind them on the mouse but there needs to be something done about that like an optional start button. like red said we skymtl said you have to use it for a month or so 1st, but the lack of the task bar and start button seam like a good reason not to change over as a desktop/non touche screen user. if they would just bring the classic start bar back then 99% of the problems people have with it would be gone, and i expect them to do that.

good point about multi touch. i guess using the internet browser on my phone that felt similar to using a mouse, made me forget that using google maps is way different on the phone than the pc. expecting all apps or programs to work seamlessly between multi touch and kb/mouse is probably not going to be something worth holding our breath on.

[MattiasNYC]

I'm curious as to at what point you think its a good idea to cover a users work area with something that is not of use to them?

Cover it for how long?

This long:


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xsspne_windows-8-search_tech

?

[MattiasNYC]

good point about multi touch. i guess using the internet browser on my phone that felt similar to using a mouse, made me forget that using google maps is way different on the phone than the pc. expecting all apps or programs to work seamlessly between multi touch and kb/mouse is probably not going to be something worth holding our breath on.

Fair enough.

However, I thought the whole point with "Metro UI" was that it allowed us to do primarily two things;

1: Use "apps" that were "live" on "tiles" which would give us instantaneous information when looking at that screen - should we want it
2: Use touch devices to navigate those "apps" - should we want it

For me, as a "power user" in the audio field, Metro itself isn't useful for audio production. This means that I wouldn't use it for that purpose. And that in turn means that I'd use regular programs and the regular desktop which is still there. In other words I don't see how I would be affected by the part of Windows 8 that is multi-touch as a power user because Metro is not a part of Win 8 where these types of programs will "live" anyway...

IF I choose to use Metro it will indeed be for the two reasons above. And additionally it gives me an incentive to streamline my non-Apple experience by investing in a MS tablet / phone as the user experience will carry over from one device to the next. As prices on advanced tech goes down so it will on touch screens and I see no reason not to add a touch screen connected to my main DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) at which point I'll be able to make use of exactly the same UI as on the other devices. No need for learning different interfaces. Just one.

Again, I see A LOT of griping over issues that seem so minute that the griping is directly inversely proportional to the effect of the changes...

[DeathReborn]

the mouse is like single touch, it is made for multi touch, there is also windows and back keys at the bottom of the tablet but not on the pc UI, you could bind them on the mouse but there needs to be something done about that like an optional start button. like red said we skymtl said you have to use it for a month or so 1st, but the lack of the task bar and start button seam like a good reason not to change over as a desktop/non touche screen user. if they would just bring the classic start bar back then 99% of the problems people have with it would be gone, and i expect them to do that.

Just as well that Microsoft is selling Multi-touch Mice. I really wish Microsoft would allow the user to choose how to use their machines instead of prescribing the garbage previously called metro. Been using it for a few weeks and it's not intuitive, especially for elderly not experienced users. My parents both use Windows 7 fine but reached the end of their tether with Windows 8 inside 2 weeks and told me to put 7 back on.

[MattiasNYC]

Just as well that Microsoft is selling Multi-touch Mice. I really wish Microsoft would allow the user to choose how to use their machines instead of prescribing the garbage previously called metro. Been using it for a few weeks and it's not intuitive, especially for elderly not experienced users. My parents both use Windows 7 fine but reached the end of their tether with Windows 8 inside 2 weeks and told me to put 7 back on.

You have to wonder though if that's because of a change or if it's because the UI is actually less intuitive.

My guess is that if you took random elderly people and had them pick between touch interfaces and ones like Win 7 - and if they'd never worked on computers much before - they'll find something like Metro more intuitive. Not to mention that an elderly person who'd perhaps get a new smart phone wouldn't have to learn two separate UI's to operate devices.