View Full Version : Plasticizer leach?
Liquid: Distilled Water
Additive: Nuke-PHN (e.g., Benzalkonium)
Tubing: PrimoChill PrimoFlex PRO LRT
Rad: Aquacomputer Airplex Modularity 360 Copper
What the heck is going on here? :eek: I boiled the tubing in distilled water to soften it up prior to install. Could that cause an issue?
My other components don't appear to be covered in this film. The loop has been running on and off for at most a month.
http://images.thedigitalfoundry.com/XS/plasticizer_leech_01.png
Perhaps I should go back to Norprene even though it's stiff as a damn rod.
Thanks.
UPDATE: For those in denial that there's an issue I direct you here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1199158/plasticizer-problems-discussion-gallery
yep, primochill I think was trying to be the king of flexibility in last year and only succeeded in being the king of plasticizer leach. My ~2.5 year old primochill has nearly invisible to naked eye feint layer of plasticizer, can only see it if run finger down a long stretch of cut open tubing.
But all the new primochill seems to get a thick layer of plasticizer within several days to few weeks, whole thread on ocn with tons of pics. yours is typical.
On my next build when no more of old stuff is left, I will go back to plasticizer free tygon beverage tubing b44-3x and if I want color, I will use dye. At least dye is water soluble, and even if all dye fell out of solution it would be a tiny fraction of the amount of plasticizer crap lining walls of that tubing. Dont know what primochill is thinking.
Tygon makes plasticizer free inner bore tubing as well, but it is silver tygon. Cant believe that at least 1 company doesnt make UV colored tubing with plasticizer free inner bore.
lowfat
05-30-2012, 06:47 PM
I do not believe B-44-3 is plasticizer free. I can't comment on if it clouds or not though yet. Hopefully in a month or so I'll actually get my rig working, then I'll be able to say if it clouds or not.
As for Primoflex, almost all recent batches cloud considerably worse than their older tubing. I had two different batches of Primoflex in my last build. One set turned brown while the older set stayed clear considerably longer. I won't be buying it again any time soon.
Any thoughts on Tygon 2001 High Purity Plasticizer Free Tubing? Tempted to overnight some from McMaster-Carr.
Ordered the following this morning. It should be here tomorrow.
10 Ft. High-purity Tygon Tubing White Semi-trans, 1/2" Id, 3/4" Od, 1/8"wall, 10'l
10 Ft. Durable Norprene Rubber/plastic Tubing 1/2" Id, 3/4" Od, 1/8" Wall, Black, 10' Length
Goodbye PrimoChill.
schoolslave
05-31-2012, 09:43 AM
The high purity Tygon will also cloud, plus it is almost impossible to bend, at least the one I tried.
The high purity Tygon will also cloud, plus it is almost impossible to bend, at least the one I tried.
I purchased the Tygon 2001 which is 100% plasticizer free. By design the tubing is somewhat cloudy. I'm guessing you used Tygon B-44-xxx tubing and not Tygon 2001. The B-44-xxx is not 100% plasticizer free.
A pot of boiling water will bend tubing. Works every time. ;)
schoolslave
05-31-2012, 12:34 PM
I purchased the Tygon 2001 which is 100% plasticizer free. By design the tubing is somewhat cloudy. I'm guessing you used Tygon B-44-xxx tubing and not Tygon 2001. The B-44-xxx is not 100% plasticizer free.
A pot of boiling water will bend tubing. Works every time. ;)
You are right, the tubing is cloudy to begin with.
I used it for maybe a month or two, and it definitely became "cloudier" with time; however, there was no "film" like you usually get with plasticizer leech.
Good luck with bending :up:
You are right, the tubing is cloudy to begin with.
I used it for maybe a month or two, and it definitely became "cloudier" with time; however, there was no "film" like you usually get with plasticizer leech.
Good luck with bending :up:
I bummed to hear that you had further clouding with the Tygon 2001. I wonder what it was from. Did you use dyes? More details please.
paulbagz
05-31-2012, 12:58 PM
Are we talking all LRT here?
My green tube hasn't leached at all in the 6+ months of 24/7 use, were there different batches per se?
-PB
Are we talking all LRT here?
My green tube hasn't leached at all in the 6+ months of 24/7 use, were there different batches per se?
-PB
Some people think it has to do with batches. I've ordered LRT on two different occasions and noticed leaching both times. One sure fire why tell if you have leaching is to cut the tubing open and closely inspect it. It's easier to see on black tubing.
It is the older Primochill that seems to not have the bad leaching, it is more recently purchased people seem to complain about and post pics with bad leach.
I was thinking bev44-3 tubing was plasticizer free, but yeah site doesnt say it is, so probably has some plasticizer...though I have never seen it leach...though does yellow slightly over time.
Anyone ever try,
Tygon Plasticizer Free Ultra Chemical Resistant Tubing 2375....Offers an unequaled combination of chemical resistance, clarity and flexibility. It at least looks clear, unlike tygon 2001, it comes in 3/8 5/8 and 1/2 3/4. Also this tubing has some of lowest water absorption rates. But no tubing is going to bend like tubing with plasticizer, but wonder how 2375 does? Its also expensive.
paulbagz
05-31-2012, 06:08 PM
Some people think it has to do with batches. I've ordered LRT on two different occasions and noticed leaching both times. One sure fire why tell if you have leaching is to cut the tubing open and closely inspect it. It's easier to see on black tubing.
Yeah, will find out if I ever tear down the loop shuld IB-E/SB-Ev2 show its face.
-PB
It is the older Primochill that seems to not have the bad leaching, it is more recently purchased people seem to complain about and post pics with bad leach.
I was thinking bev44-3 tubing was plasticizer free, but yeah site doesnt say it is, so probably has some plasticizer...though I have never seen it leach...though does yellow slightly over time.
Anyone ever try, It at least looks clear, unlike tygon 2001, it comes in 3/8 5/8 and 1/2 3/4. Also this tubing has some of lowest water absorption rates. But no tubing is going to bend like tubing with plasticizer, but wonder how 2375 does? Its also expensive.
Water absorption is 0.04% for both Tygon 2001 and 2375. Tygon 2375 is the successor to Tygon 2075.
http://emurdock.com/tygontubing/tygon-2001.pdf
http://emurdock.com/tygontubing/tygon%202375%20v%202075%20comparison.pdf
I've learned more about tubing in the past 48 hours then I would have liked to. :lol2:
schoolslave
06-01-2012, 08:01 AM
I bummed to hear that you had further clouding with the Tygon 2001. I wonder what it was from. Did you use dyes? More details please.
It may have been radiator flux, dirt, etc. I don't think I cleaned the blocks/radiators before using them with that loop.
I wish I had taken pictures, but like I said, there was no film on the inside of the tubing, it may have just been natural discoloration.
My order of Norprene A-60-G (which I've used before) and Tygon 2001 (which is new for me) arrived today. I did some further reading and the water absorption rate is actually lower on the Tygon 2001. So I'm going to use that first. Both tubing is 100% plasticizer free.
http://images.thedigitalfoundry.com/XS/tygon_2001_01.png
http://images.thedigitalfoundry.com/XS/tygon_2001_02.png
Water absorption is 0.04% for both Tygon 2001 and 2375. Tygon 2375 is the successor to Tygon 2075.
http://emurdock.com/tygontubing/tygon-2001.pdf
http://emurdock.com/tygontubing/tygon%202375%20v%202075%20comparison.pdf
I've learned more about tubing in the past 48 hours then I would have liked to. :lol2:
The tygon 2001 tubing isnt clear though to begin with, ie looks ugly to me in pics anyway, I was trying to find something along same lines/same specs that is clear tubing, then also the bending issues, boiling for each turn would be a pita.
EDIT: actually that white tubing doesnt look bad, which is that?
Also between Norprene and tygon 2001, both have low enough water absorption that neither should have clouding from water absorption. Norprene also has very low water vapor transmission, so less refilling of loops, but some have had issues with it collapsing, but depends on wall thickness and pump power as well.
EDIT: actually that white tubing doesnt look bad, which is that?
Tygon 2001. It's not white but semi-transparent. Some would call it "cloudy."
Also between Norprene and tygon 2001, both have low enough water absorption that neither should have clouding from water absorption. Norprene also has very low water vapor transmission, so less refilling of loops, but some have had issues with it collapsing, but depends on wall thickness and pump power as well.
I'll take the 0.04 over 0.3 myself. ;)
muskel
06-12-2012, 10:58 AM
I ordered 50ft of Tygon Norprene tubing, formula A-60-G. Lets see how it fares.
I ordered 50ft of Tygon Norprene tubing, formula A-60-G. Lets see how it fares.
That's what's to the right of the white tubing above. ;) I like Norprene (used it in my first WC build) but be warned it kinks easily. I'd say that and the Tygon 2001 are the most prone to kinking and have the largest bend radius. I ended up using the Tygon 2001 (throwing out the PrimoChill PrimoFlex PRO LRT and shelving the Norprene) because it is 100% plasticizer free and has the lowest absorption rate even when compared to Norprene. Good luck.
voigts
06-13-2012, 06:25 PM
I'm using the 3/8"ID 5/8"OD tubing over 7/16" fittings and it is by far the best tubing I have ever used, and I've used most of them. It has an incredible bend radius, can be formed into curves easily, has very little evaporation issues, and doesn't have any plasticizer. I don't care about it being black as I prefer black tubing anyway. I've tried the plasticizer-free Tygon and found it to be useless. It was too soft and kinked like crazy.
Sparky
06-13-2012, 08:58 PM
The duralene stuff I used in my old quad insanity loop ran for 1.5 years and had barely a hint of plasticizer leach and the tubes were still 90% clear.
I'm using the 3/8"ID 5/8"OD tubing over 7/16" fittings and it is by far the best tubing I have ever used, and I've used most of them. It has an incredible bend radius, can be formed into curves easily, has very little evaporation issues, and doesn't have any plasticizer. I don't care about it being black as I prefer black tubing anyway. I've tried the plasticizer-free Tygon and found it to be useless. It was too soft and kinked like crazy.
I own 10 feet of Tygon 2001 which is 100% plasticizer free. I'm not sure what "plasticizer-free Tygon" you were using but the Tygon 2001 is far from soft. Their Norprene tubing, which I also own 10+ feet of, is much softer. Unfortunately, both the Tygon 2001 and Norprene have poor bend radii.
voigts
06-14-2012, 06:35 PM
both the Tygon 2001 and Norprene have poor bend radii.
If you have the thicker walled Norprene like I'm using, the bend radius is phenomenal, and is better than anything else I've used to include Primochill, Tygon, etc. The 1/16" walled Norprene is too thin to be sure, but the 1/8" walled is outstanding.
If you have the thicker walled Norprene like I'm using, the bend radius is phenomenal, and is better than anything else I've used to include Primochill, Tygon, etc. The 1/16" walled Norprene is too thin to be sure, but the 1/8" walled is outstanding.
I assume you're referring to this: http://emurdock.com/norprene-afl00038.aspx. My first WC build used that tubing and I recently bought an additional 10 feet of the same tubing. Phenomenal bend radius? I would instead say it has a phenomenal tendency to kink. Even though I'll never use PrimoChill PrimoFlex PRO LRT again it smokes Norprene in terms of flexibility and resistance to kinking. Granted, if you don't have any serious bends in your loop it's all a moot point.
In the end... between 1/2 ID 3/4 OD PrimoChill PrimoFlex PRO LRT, Norprene and Tygon 2001 I went with Tygon 2001. I own and have used all three types of tubing. My second choice would be Norprene.
Sparky
06-14-2012, 09:22 PM
What don't you like about the primochill LRT? That's what I've been using in my main rig.
What don't you like about the primochill LRT? That's what I've been using in my main rig.
Did you miss the picture in the first post of this thread? :) I'd also check out: http://www.overclock.net/t/1199158/plasticizer-problems-discussion-gallery
ryan92084
06-15-2012, 09:03 AM
Ya the pictures in that make my almost 4 year old masterclear that I just replaced look pretty good. Wish I would have seen that thread before i redid my loop
Sparky
06-15-2012, 03:39 PM
OK, see the time stamp of my post? 1:36 AM? Yeah, I wasn't really awake. That's my excuse :p:
Boulard83
06-15-2012, 05:12 PM
I alwais had Primochill LRT black and red tubing. The only thing i noticed was a little white deposit on the plexy reservoir and this is after 1.5yrs of running. Tubing was still clear(black) inside.
I alwais had Primochill LRT black and red tubing. The only thing i noticed was a little white deposit on the plexy reservoir and this is after 1.5yrs of running. Tubing was still clear(black) inside.
Sounds like you got lucky. It's fairly well known at this point that there ARE leaching issues with PrimoChill. All I had in my loop was distilled water and it happened in less than a couple of weeks. Same issue with a second batch l ordered.
Conumdrum
06-15-2012, 08:43 PM
I haven't bought LRT in umm, almost 2 years. Still clear. Still using it. Something changed.
I haven't bought LRT in umm, almost 2 years. Still clear. Still using it. Something changed.
It could and probably does have something to due with how they manufacturer it. Either way I'm staying away from it. It's 100% plasticizer free for me from now on. :up:
Marcusk
06-16-2012, 06:50 AM
I alwais had Primochill LRT black and red tubing. The only thing i noticed was a little white deposit on the plexy reservoir and this is after 1.5yrs of running. Tubing was still clear(black) inside.
I haven't bought LRT in umm, almost 2 years. Still clear. Still using it. Something changed.
It's only the more recent batches of their tubing having these plasticizer issues, they seem to have changed their formula.
Sparky
06-16-2012, 06:25 PM
This makes me worried about my loop now since the tubing is only a few months old :(
Kayin
06-16-2012, 08:34 PM
My wife's Primochill tubing has turned blackish-brown (was green) and brittle. No more Primochill tubing in this house. Then again. I'm going hardlines (if I can ever find blasted metric tubing) but I think I'm getting her something like Tygon. Not sure yet.
Sparky
06-17-2012, 02:29 PM
Well crud. I went to colored tubing to avoid issues with dyes. Now I'm going to have trouble with the tubing.
...............
My wife's Primochill tubing has turned blackish-brown (was green) and brittle. No more Primochill tubing in this house. Then again. I'm going hardlines (if I can ever find blasted metric tubing) but I think I'm getting her something like Tygon. Not sure yet.
Not all Tygon is plasticizer free. Read through this entire thread to see my posts.
squick3n
06-17-2012, 06:57 PM
Well crud. I went to colored tubing to avoid issues with dyes. Now I'm going to have trouble with the tubing.
...............
Same. I have a post in that OCN thread with my 2 week old black Primochill looking like the picture in the OP. I did weeks of reading before buying anything, and it was almost unanimous to not use dyes, and if you wanted color, to use colored tubing. I have some masterkleer in the loop as well that is still clear. Something is very wrong with Primochill if it goes to sh** after two weeks
Sparky
06-17-2012, 07:05 PM
Well I'll be taking some stuff of my loop apart to upgrade a bit when I get my new 7850 or 7950 (not decided yet). If I get the 7850 then hopefully Swiftech will have their sink out for it soon. Tempted to get a 7950 but I'm not sure if it is worth the extra $100 or not. But either way, when I do take stuff apart I'll see how bad it looks I guess.
No PrimoChill, no dyes and no silver. All I use now is 100% plasticizer free tubing, distilled water and Nuke-PHN Biocide (not CU).
squick3n
06-18-2012, 07:58 AM
I do kind of wonder what role the copper sulfate plays. I'm using silver now but I also am not using any nickel
I do kind of wonder what role the copper sulfate plays. I'm using silver now but I also am not using any nickel
Most people know to stay away from copper. Silver has been the new "thing" in town for the last few years. I ran a strip of pure silver (99.xx%) in one of my machines without noticeable issue or so I thought. It wasn't until I broke down that system and months later went to use some BP fittings that I noticed corrosion on the fittings. I did some digging and that's when I found that nickel and silver can cause issues. Ek experienced this first hand. That's why I don't mess with any of that crap now - no dyes, no plasticizer, no silver and no copper. ;)
squick3n
06-18-2012, 11:27 AM
No PrimoChill, no dyes and no silver. All I use now is 100% plasticizer free tubing, distilled water and Nuke-PHN Biocide (not CU).
That's the thing though. There are so many people who swear and swear and swear that the Mayhems stuff causes no problems. With WC having been around so long it seems strange there isn't a more clear list of best practices
Sparky
06-18-2012, 03:40 PM
Most people know to stay away from copper. Silver has been the new "thing" in town for the last few years. I ran a strip of pure silver (99.xx%) in one of my machines without noticeable issue or so I thought. It wasn't until I broke down that system and months later went to use some BP fittings that I noticed corrosion on the fittings. I did some digging and that's when I found that nickel and silver can cause issues. Ek experienced this first hand. That's why I don't mess with any of that crap now - no dyes, no plasticizer, no silver and no copper. ;)
Sorry to break it to you but you have copper all throughout your loop :p:
In my experience silver works great and has no real negative side effects. Do my nickel plated fittings have nickel wear? Yes, but it was wearing off already even before introducing silver to the loop. And it was wearing off all my fittings (I have a mix of Dtek, EK, Bitspower). I ran silver in my other loop for 1.5 years and the nickel plated fittings there didn't look any worse than any other fittings of mine. Actually they were better since they were newer so they hadn't had as much time to wear yet.
I personally believe nickel plating is much more hassle than it is worth. If I could get brass fittings without the nickel I'd gladly do that.
Kayin
06-18-2012, 06:36 PM
I still find it odd that EK is the only one having that problem, and especially out in the wider world nickel plating is considered near indestructible. If I had to make a guess, the nickel we're getting is no more than a flash coat, and proper plating practices are not being followed. Take it to any machine shop and get it nickel plated, and I'll bet you you would have to get a die grinder to get it off. Maybe we should push for hard chrome.
muskel
06-19-2012, 01:38 PM
Whats up with nickel plating anyway ? Its cool because its shiny?
On another note - can you bend norprene using hot water to make exact bends ?
tiborrr
06-19-2012, 01:43 PM
@Muskel: I couldn't. I run norprene in my daily setup but that bugger required some hefty curves to avoid kinking :)
Whats up with nickel plating anyway ? Its cool because its shiny?
On another note - can you bend norprene using hot water to make exact bends ?
There's no non-metal WC tubing, including Norprene, that I haven't been able to bend with boiling water. Heat it for a few seconds, straighten it out by hand and then keep it submerged in ice water for a few seconds. Repeat a couple times and I've been able to bend the tubing however I like. Just remember to get it in place before it completely cools.
voigts
06-20-2012, 02:04 PM
On another note - can you bend norprene using hot water to make exact bends ?
This is one of the things that has endeared me to this tubing. Using a long spring to hold the inside shape, I can bend the Norprene to an extreme shape, alternate it between boiling water and ice water a few times holding it in each for a couple of minutes, and it will hold very tight bend radii without kinking or putting stress on the barbs.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCaseV/Water/formingTubing1.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCaseV/Water/formingTubing2.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/voigts/CustomWoodCaseV/Water/formingTubing3.jpg
squick3n
06-20-2012, 02:29 PM
I love the look of that tubing. I wish they made it in 7/16-5/8
muskel
06-24-2012, 07:48 AM
This is one of the things that has endeared me to this tubing. Using a long spring to hold the inside shape, I can bend the Norprene to an extreme shape, alternate it between boiling water and ice water a few times holding it in each for a couple of minutes, and it will hold very tight bend radii without kinking or putting stress on the barbs.
Now this is what i like to see!. My Norprene has arrived, going to pick it up on Monday. Then i will also get this spring from somewhere. I still have some components to buy and then rebuild my loop.