Justification going water...

[Bun-Bun]

Ok other than it is fun and cool with the novelty of it (believe me I have enjoyed my builds)

Is it really worth it? Or am I doing something incredibly wrong? See below...

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8569/dsc01441280.jpg

This setup. 2600K @ 4.5GHz @ 1.32v - Gigabyte Z68-UD5 - MX-3 TIM - SR-1 560 rad with 4 GT-14 fans - Swiftech XT Rev 2 - DCC+ w/ petra's pump

running WCG 24/7 I pulled these temps 49° 52° 50° 49° ambient at 20°C

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/637/dsc01791280.jpg

This setup. 2600K (phycially the same processor I moved from the above build to this one) @ 4.5GHz @ 1.32v - Asus Maximus IV Gene-Z - MX-4 TIM - Zalman CNPS10X with Sharkoon 2000 fan (on a fan controller running around 8-10V)

running WCG 24/7 I pulled these temps 61° 63° 59° 59° ambient at 19°C

10-13°C difference?! that's it? $400+ watercooling vs $30 heatsink and $15 fan that is in a tiny case in a less then optimal configuration... (even if you account for 3°C difference between MX-3 to MX-4 which I don't think there is its still 13-16°C)

Am I missing something here?

EDIT:

Running LinX AVX for 30 minutes nets the same results.

[Polizei]

How much louder is that single fan compared to the ones on the radiator?

[iboomalot]

I do water cooling to keep fan noise to a min.

I also like the fact my temps don't hit 85c

Best part about WCing you can use most products over and over.

[Bun-Bun]

How much louder is that single fan compared to the ones on the radiator?

Well considering I can't hear the radiator at all...

I can hear the fan on this heatsink but its not that much louder. I have it slowed down to where I can't hear it from my computer chair.


I do water cooling to keep fan noise to a min.

I also like the fact my temps don't hit 85c

Best part about WCing you can use most products over and over.

This heatsink and fan is cheaper than any waterblock I know of...

[CrazyNutz]

Having just a 2600k @ 4.5ghz on that much rad is overkill. The effectiveness of water cooling would have paid off better for you if you had a GPU, or two in that loop.

The way I look at WC is I can get a Max overclock on CPU, and GPU, have great temps, and be very quiet.
If I stuck with air I would have to sacrifice something.

[Hondacity]

ib will have lower tdp, cpu don't need water cooling

the gpus with their blower fans are too noisy..those need need heatsinks or water cooling.

my 2 cents...

[kinghong1970]

correct me if i'm wrong but i see some diverse reasons for wc'ing...

1) die hard purists and enthusiasts pushing the envelope...
2) bling artists who likes the color, the light show, the fancy names and spray paints
3) the hobbyists who likes to tinker and does not necessarily have to break any "speed records"

2 and 3 or a mix of 2&3 does seem to be more apparent these days... but to each his/her own...

do we need to drive a car that goes 0-60 in 3.4 seconds? no... but we all aspire to... and some does...

personally, i love the challenge of making something new and something different... and it's my solitude from raising 3 daughters... so i guess i'm 3.

so for people like me, no, we may never take full advantage of the headroom given to us by watercooling...
and probably the 4 or 8 fans on rads won't be more silent than some air cooled fans...
and no, i really cannot really justify spending such premium on some of these blocks... but again, it brings me peace and keeps my sanity or insanity...

[meanmoe]

You need a bigger overclock.

I personally enjoy the silence.

[Bun-Bun]

Yeah that's pretty much it. I love building my rigs and the challenge of fitting my water cooling in my little lian li mid tower.

Temps are better but not drastic. 100-200 mhz higher clock is all i see gaining going between my rigs. Suppose I could test that.

[3lfk1ng]

-You need to be past 5GHz for you to see the real difference.
-The silence is golden.
-My GPU temps dropped by about 20c.

[Bun-Bun]

Ok tomorrow I will up the OC and compare.

[lowfat]

A 2600k at only 4.5GHz doesn't throw a lot of heat. That massive radiator is rather overkill at the moment.. :p:

[Hondacity]

silence is golden indeed. but with 4 fans its just too loud imo. you can turn off the 3 fans and see no difference @ 4.5ghz :)

[Bun-Bun]

I understand it's over kill. But that should make the temps even better! Lol

I've had better air coolers that would close the gap even more. And with quiet fans as well.


I can see it for multiple blocks with multiple video cards. But I'm only into cpu only loops and cpu ocing.

[lowfat]

I understand it's over kill. But that should make the temps even better! Lol

I've had better air coolers that would close the gap even more. And with quiet fans as well.


I can see it for multiple blocks with multiple video cards. But I'm only into cpu only loops and cpu ocing.

You are hitting the absolute best temperatures you can with that chip w/o lowering ambient temperature. A 32nm quad SB just doesn't throw a lot of heat.

[nksharp]

Have you also tried running the WC with less tubing. It looks like a lot from that top pic that is basically unneeded since less tubing the better.

[Hondacity]

less tubing the better? where did you get this info?

[aerial]

The truth is watercooling makes sense mostly for bling these days.
You can get a high-end cpu cooler, that will be still A LOT cheaper than simple water cooling loop, and difference in performance will be even lower.
Graphic cards? No problem to get relatively quiet cooler as well, (accelero extreme?, great reviews on spcr). Temps here will be considerably better on water cooling, but still easily within specs, and quiet, so what is the point? (no it won't help in OC, maybe by tiny bit but not worth it for 99% users).
The only thing that comes to my mind, when LC would really pay off, would be multi gpu setup, where you can't fit decent aftermarket gpu coolers, or case has average ventilation, and it would be just too warm for multiple gpus (good over 100C, overheating cards).
But other than that - no, water cooling is not worth it, when it comes to costs.

Water cooling is just a hobby, people doing it for fun. There is great selection of good looking parts (all kinds of compression fittings), that give infinite customization options, opportinity to make great looking rigs. But for pure performance/price aspect ratio - it is not worth it at all. Even if you would want to go extreme, there are just better cooling solutions, not limited to water=ambient temperature.

[Wimo]

You can combine the WC with a TEC and controller. That way you can go sub ambient without condensation and still use the WC parts. Mindchill makes these. My I5 2500k idles at 10c...

[Vinas]

Ok, there are a lot of opinions in this thread, and that's fine. Take it from another WCGer, the main benefit for a lot of us "old time" water cooling folks is silence. Over and over again, the LOUDNESS factor is a huge reason a lot of us WC. You water cool when you want to build a more "mature" rig.

With sandybridge things changed a little. Before that, with nehalems, bloomfields, lynnfields, and older, if you wanted to reach ~4.2GHz+ you pretty much NEEDED water as those vcore and clocks resulted in hot hot chips. Not always, but usually this was the case. Really silence plays a huge role because once the novelty of that shiny new computer wears out, a lot of people get sick of the noise.

A gain of 10c with WC over a good air cooler gives you some room to push up the speed/volts. In reality a lot of WC folks run those sandys at 5GHz and beyond, and turn down the speeds to a more conservative 4.5Ghz when they want silence. As others have mentioned, that rad is a little overkill for one sandy. You should be able to use silent/low speed fans and see little to no difference. With a 240mm Rad you could use medium speed fans and have similar results anyway (minus the overkill rad). For me, I WC 2 video cards and a hot cpu on the system in my sig. The loudest part of my system is the PSU, granted it's a turbocool. Still though, it's much more quiet than when I had two 240mm rads with 4000rpm DELTA FANS on them. I'll never do that again besides bench rigs, but since I've got well over 1K in water cooling parts I'll take the silence, and use the temperature advantage push things to the limit. :up:

[Vinas]

I understand it's over kill. But that should make the temps even better! LolSadly, watercooling still can only get you so low using ambient air. I suspect that if you had a single 240mm rad that your temps would be similar.

[CrazyNutz]

I suspect that if you had a single 240mm rad that your temps would be similar.

This is correct.

[LvMike]

If you are a cpu only kind of guy, with a rad like that, you need to use a pelt block. My old x64 hammer, with a swiftec pelt block and very aggressive over clock hand no load temps of 3c and full load temps of 14c on a 2x120 rad using two delta screamers.

Water can only get you down to ambient, great air coolers get you close (as you have found) but pop a 266 watt pelt block on, and go to town, just remember to insulate your board.

[Bun-Bun]

less tubing the better? where did you get this info?

I have heard it before and in theory it makes sense. And in practice in makes sense for various reasons. But is it going to affect flow rate enough to matter? Probably not.


Ok, there are a lot of opinions in this thread, and that's fine. Take it from another WCGer, the main benefit for a lot of us "old time" water cooling folks is silence. Over and over again, the LOUDNESS factor is a huge reason a lot of us WC. You water cool when you want to build a more "mature" rig.

With sandybridge things changed a little. Before that, with nehalems, bloomfields, lynnfields, and older, if you wanted to reach ~4.2GHz+ you pretty much NEEDED water as those vcore and clocks resulted in hot hot chips. Not always, but usually this was the case. Really silence plays a huge role because once the novelty of that shiny new computer wears out, a lot of people get sick of the noise.

A gain of 10c with WC over a good air cooler gives you some room to push up the speed/volts. In reality a lot of WC folks run those sandys at 5GHz and beyond, and turn down the speeds to a more conservative 4.5Ghz when they want silence. As others have mentioned, that rad is a little overkill for one sandy. You should be able to use silent/low speed fans and see little to no difference. With a 240mm Rad you could use medium speed fans and have similar results anyway (minus the overkill rad). For me, I WC 2 video cards and a hot cpu on the system in my sig. The loudest part of my system is the PSU, granted it's a turbocool. Still though, it's much more quiet than when I had two 240mm rads with 4000rpm DELTA FANS on them. I'll never do that again besides bench rigs, but since I've got well over 1K in water cooling parts I'll take the silence, and use the temperature advantage push things to the limit. :up:

I am quoting you as this kinda touches on every point.

I understand the silence aspect. But with these new air coolers even that is pushing it. I turned my sharkoon's down to 5v to see if temps would rise, they didn't by any measurable degree. So It's quite air vs my silent rad (but I imagine if I took my GT's and put it on the Zalman heatsink it would perform the same and be just as quiet).

SB and then IB putting out less heat. Yeah I can understand that. I skipped the first gen I7's. Neither of my chips are capable of LinX AVX stability at 5.0GHz. One will do 4.9GHz the other will only do 4.8GHz. I haven't tried yet to see what this one will do on this air cooler. Could try that and see.

And multiple video cards yeah that I could see as well. Especially 3 or 4 crammed in tight. LC would be the only way to keep those from screaming.


Sadly, watercooling still can only get you so low using ambient air. I suspect that if you had a single 240mm rad that your temps would be similar.

Ironically enough that was the other thing bugging me. My main rig is a GTX240 RAD with the 1800 rpm GT fans at 9-10v in push pull. I get almost exactly the same temps between that setup and the one pictured above. Water to air delta's are ~4° in both systems.

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/378088_10150400656984429_761049428_8095122_1106663 311_n.jpg


You can combine the WC with a TEC and controller. That way you can go sub ambient without condensation and still use the WC parts. Mindchill makes these. My I5 2500k idles at 10c...

where can I read up more on this? I thought you had to insulate with TEC's which is why I stayed away from them. If it would be possible to do TEC without going sub ambient (IE deal with condensation) I would love to try that out.



So basically what I am getting is the following you LC for:

1. The hobby (fun)
2. The challenge (fun)
3. Complex systems with lots of heat dump (3-4 card SLI/Crossfire or multiple CPU's)
4. Silence or that slight edge over air

The tone in some of these replies leads me to believe some are offended by what I posted. No offence was ever intended. I my self never started in this looking for ultimate performance. I did it more for the fun of doing it. I just have a lot of conceptions about LC from before that I have been rehashing out lately and needed some outside input to finish my thought processes. I kinda had this thought that the results I have been getting (air being close and my two rigs being the same performance) was just the physics of it and that you can only get so close to ambient and I am at the point of diminishing returns. So... thanks!

[LvMike]

If you are not going sub ambient, whats the point of a tec. I guess you could put a 80 or 100 watt tec on and get closer to ambient, but insulating to prevent condensation isnt that big of a job. A little neoprene, some dielectric grease for the socket, and some silicone conformal spray for the board and your done.

[Bun-Bun]

To squeeze that extra little bit... lol

Wimo mentioned you can go TEC without condensation and his temps are still really good. If that's true I would be interested in that.

The reason I have never gone TEC or Phase before is I didn't want the hassle of insulating my boards. Though that may be my next logical step for my bench rig...

[3lfk1ng]

Yeah, a low rated Tech won't create any condensation. Remember the Vigor gaming monsoon? (https://www.google.com/search?q=vigor+gaming+monsoon&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&authuser=0&ei=khBNT6TRMeW0iQL16M2jDw&biw=1680&bih=965&sei=lBBNT92JG8aRiAKCtrGwDw) I had it for two years and it worked very well (http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/964/vigor_gaming_monsoon_ii_hsf_heatpipe_and_peltier_c ooling/index5.html), I was quite impressed.

[Bun-Bun]

I do vaguely remember that thing... lol

I used to have the NB and video card in my bench rig's loop. But I was trying to figure stuff out and it was impossible to compare things with those blocks in there. I should put them back in...

And this looks perfect for me! lol

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?274776-Sandy-Bridge-Tec-Water-Block

[PiLsY]

TECs eat electric. Just not worth the extra cost for a 24/7 above ambient setup.

I use a 360 rad with 3 x 9v yates for my 2500k @ 5ghz (1.52v) + gtx470. Full load cpu is around 75-80c, gpu around 50c. As others have said you arent producing enough heat. A decent push/pull 120mm rad with undervolted fans can easily cope with the clock you have there. Alternatively you could add a gpu to the loop you have there and cpu temps would hardly budge.

Also the 3c lower ambient for the air rig would benefit the water rig to the tune of 4c or so lower at the cpu, so in reality youre more like 13 to 17c lower on water. Flipping it the other way air coolers do comparitively worse than liquid at higher ambients, so you could be looking at as much as 5c higher with the air rig at 22c ambient.

[Bun-Bun]

I'm not thinking TEC for my 24/7 rigs. TEC would be for my bench rig in the first pic for benching/testing/playing around. My main rig will stay the way it is and my crunchers will all be air.

And after reading let me rephrase. I don't want to stay above ambient, but above dew point. I want to go sub ambient but without the worry of condensation.

Where do you see 3°C ambient change? The air rig was 19°C and my liquid was at 20°C. My ambient's are always between 19-21°C. So you are right I should add 1-2°C to those numbers.

Air doing worse then liquid at higher ambient's... never considered this before but I would believe based on experiences in the past.

[PiLsY]

Yeah sorry read that 20c ambient as 22c for some reason? Also wrong phrasing in above ambient, I meant above dew point. First post after getting home from work :lol:.

At least my point about ambient change affecting liquid cooling less than air was worthwhile ;).

[Bun-Bun]

Haha no worries.

It makes sense as LC moves the heat away from that main area (well depending on the configuration of it) thus changing heat saturation which ambient's would have an affect on.

[Absolute_0]

my 2 cents

1) GPU's are unbearably loud these days, fan speeds over 40% sound like wind turbines. Water cooling the GPU cuts down a lot of noise (especially if there are two)

2) Most watercooling parts are long-term investments. My pump/radiator/fan/CPU block are all from 2005/2006. So in the last 6 years the only thing I added is my EK EC7970 block... I could have got my old Swiftech MCW60 to fit and put ram-sinks on the memory, but I wanted to pay $$ for the bling factor.
The point is, most of the components last a long time.

3) Building WCing is fun

4) Looks cool

In terms of temps vs. cost not very cost efficient, but that's not what XS is about.

[MonstaMunch]

Sorry to be a noob, but I'm in the process of building my first water cooled setup, and I'm a little confused by all the people talking about how much quieter it is.

All the research I've done has led me to buying low rpm fans for the front and back of all rads to do the whole "push pull" thing. The plan is two loops, one with two triple rads, and the other with a single quad. If each of those rads has a full bank of 120mm fans on both sides, that's a total of 20 fans. Yes, they are low rpm and supposedly "ultra silent", but surely the combined total noise of all these fans even on low rpm is still going to be pretty loud, and that's not even including a fan or two at the back for air extraction.

What am I missing here? Are the fans simply not needed during general use? Sorry again for the noob questions, but if I just wasted loads of money on buying 20 fans I don't need and getting them shipped to Cambodia, someone might as well tell me..... :(

[Wimo]

To squeeze that extra little bit... lol

Wimo mentioned you can go TEC without condensation and his temps are still really good. If that's true I would be interested in that.

The reason I have never gone TEC or Phase before is I didn't want the hassle of insulating my boards. Though that may be my next logical step for my bench rig...

Arqtik.com for the products. The controllers works with an ambientsensor and temp sensor. My load at 10 degrees is around 30% which is around 30W. It's a nice system.

[Vinas]

Monsta, the short answer is that a bunch of low speed fans will be more quiet than a couple high speed fans. Since you have 1200mm of rad space I assume you need A METRIC F-TON of cooling capacity. So you will need all of the fans you can get. My suspicion is that you have way over purchased in rads, which is common now a days. If you're just cooling a cpu and one or two gpu's then you will not need to push/pull 20 fans.

[Vinas]

So basically what I am getting is the following you LC for:

1. The hobby (fun)
2. The challenge (fun)
3. Complex systems with lots of heat dump (3-4 card SLI/Crossfire or multiple CPU's)
4. Silence or that slight edge over air

The tone in some of these replies leads me to believe some are offended by what I posted. No offence was ever intended. No worries bun-bun. There is a vast amount of historical data in this forum, and historically a lot of us watercooling folks can be snobbish. To understand why, just check out how many times the same subject comes up over and over again. It's not really a problem IMHO but I think that it can be easy for people to get frustrated. The thing is, is that you can recognize the snobs pretty quickly. Heck, I'm guilty of it too! I think thought, that people here spend a great amount of time, effort, and money in this hobby. So perhaps that's why people get defensive about WC so much.

To me WC is like comparing the $1,000 cpu to the $300 cpu. You don't really NEED that 1k cpu because the $300 one can be overclocked to do the job. Well so can the 1k cpu, and usually they limit out in OC speed pretty similarly. So people here love this hobby soooooo much that they'll go after the 1k cpu, even if the benefit doesn't seem to out weigh the additional costs.


And EDIT: The last thing I want to add is that a few people think that with sandy and ivy, watercooling is a dying thing. Kind of the inverse of TEC cooling (search my posts in the TEC forum if you ever get bored). I think these chips slowed things down right now, but once the 8 and 12 core cpu's start coming out, WC will be alive and well once again! So your investment isn't necessarily wasted, yet. :-)

[Bun-Bun]

I figured as much that's what it was. Just wanted to put it out there :)

In no way do I think water cooling isn't worth it. I do not regret my builds as it's been fun and i have a system that is unique to any one else. I just thought the performance difference was greater. But i also suppose air coolers have come a ways as well in the past 5 years lol


After a big episode last night with my main rig I did some testing. Upped the OC on the air cooled system to 4.7ghz. on air it required the same voltage that chip needed on water for 4.8ghz (1.45v). So voltage wise i gain 100mhz with water. Comparing temps with my main rig at the same clock and voltage there is 10-15° difference across the cores between the system's. That's comparing two different chips now but is right inline with what I saw with just the one chip. So temperature wise I gain 200mhz as i had that chip up to 4.9ghz stable when it was on water.

[MonstaMunch]

Monsta, the short answer is that a bunch of low speed fans will be more quiet than a couple high speed fans. Since you have 1200mm of rad space I assume you need A METRIC F-TON of cooling capacity. So you will need all of the fans you can get. My suspicion is that you have way over purchased in rads, which is common now a days. If you're just cooling a cpu and one or two gpu's then you will not need to push/pull 20 fans.

Thanks for the info. I'm planning on going all out, CPU, 3 GTX580's, RAM, and the mobo (a Rampage Extreme IV which almost certainly doesn't need watercooling). Part of my reasoning is that shipping is a massive cost (the same as the cost of the product if I only order a bit), but it doesn't seem to rise proportionately when I add extra stuff. If I get half the stuff now, then later on decide that I want more, I'll end up paying double again. The only components I was able to buy locally were the CPU and RAM, literally everything else had to be imported. The other part of my reasoning is that I'm a bit of an idiot when it comes to stuff like this. I either like to do everything possible, or nothing at all.

The end result will be used in a triple monitor setup, which was the only justification I could come up with for going triple SLI.

Thanks again for the info, I'm glad to hear the fans aren't a complete waste. I'm having a hard time imagining their combined volume being lower than a few standard high rpm fans, but I'll take your word for it :)

[Bun-Bun]

Arqtik.com for the products. The controllers works with an ambientsensor and temp sensor. My load at 10 degrees is around 30% which is around 30W. It's a nice system.

I saw that from the TEC section. Seriously considering it once my current projects wrap up...

[LvMike]

monsta. if you are using 20 fans each rated for 18 dB then your total dB would be 44 dB... if they are 18dB fans. 44dB is not quiet, but it would be quieter than 3 gtx580 ( 41 dB each x3 = 51 dB total ) dB is logarithmic so the 7 dB difference is actually quite large. As long as your 20 fans are under 25dB then your water cooled setup will be quieter than you 3 video cards.

[Gorki]

Arqtik.com for the products. The controllers works with an ambientsensor and temp sensor. My load at 10 degrees is around 30% which is around 30W. It's a nice system.
Dang and I just dropped some cash for nice rad like RX480 + Raystorm + DDC-1T Plus + AP15 + Rheosmart 6 for my first LC build... and I find this.... :rolleyes: :D

[Bun-Bun]

Well you still need the rest of the WC minus the WB to use that system.

[Gorki]

Yes but I could use cheaper components like rad since there is not much gain, fans and pump as well I believe. Oh well what's done is done! :)

[defect9]

monsta. if you are using 20 fans each rated for 18 dB then your total dB would be 44 dB... if they are 18dB fans. 44dB is not quiet, but it would be quieter than 3 gtx580 ( 41 dB each x3 = 51 dB total ) dB is logarithmic so the 7 dB difference is actually quite large. As long as your 20 fans are under 25dB then your water cooled setup will be quieter than you 3 video cards.

I thought it was 3db per doubling of fans, which would be a 13db increase for 20 fans, not 26db?

[BeepBeep2]

I thought it was 3db per doubling of fans, which would be a 13db increase for 20 fans, not 26db?
Correct.

...as far as water cooling being justified Bun-Bun, you have to realize how much money a lot of guys spend for bling instead of functionality or buy more efficient parts for less efficient price.

Sub $200 performance:
CPU Block: XSPC Rasa $30/$40 AMD/intel on PPC's.com
Radiator: Swiftech MCR-320 QP / MCR-420 QP - $50/60 @ Sidewinders
Pump: Jingway 1200 variant, Phobya, DD or EK = $55 various stores
Res: Swiftech Micro Res v2 = $20 various stores
Barbs and Tubing/Clamps = $20
3/4x Yate Loon Medium 1650RPM = $10-15

Total Price - $185 to $210 for a reliable/strong pump (I've had one going myself for 1 2/3 years now) high end, low restriction block and 3x or 4x120mm radiator which will net 15-20c over air cooling using the same fans in push-pull. You can even choose colored tubing in this case, or throw in $15 for good CCFLs in the case all under $225.

[matari]

I am not a fan of budget watercooling. You need approximately 300 - 500 USD for a decent setup. I wouldn't spend your entire budget; you will make an error somewhere and wish you have more cash flow to purchase something that works better.

H2O is not a miracle either. 5 -10 degrees over a top air system is what most will see. Remember to start simple (CPU first) and add more blocks as you learn the ropes.

There are limits to the gains you get by adding more radiator. Unless you are pushing the envelope, you won't notice the difference between a 120.3 and a 120.4 on a CPU.

[BeepBeep2]

I am not a fan of budget watercooling. You need approximately 300 - 500 USD for a decent setup. I wouldn't spend your entire budget; you will make an error somewhere and wish you have more cash flow to purchase something that works better.

H2O is not a miracle either. 5 -10 degrees over a top air system is what most will see. Remember to start simple (CPU first) and add more blocks as you learn the ropes.

There are limits to the gains you get by adding more radiator. Unless you are pushing the envelope, you won't notice the difference between a 120.3 and a 120.4 on a CPU.
Did you even read what parts I listed? $225 is all you need for decent flow, a very decent block, decent looks, and over sized radiator. That turns to $250 if you want GT's instead of Yates and $275 at most with a fan controller.

[MonstaMunch]

I thought it was 3db per doubling of fans, which would be a 13db increase for 20 fans, not 26db?

Thanks for this, and thanks LvMike too. The noise doesn't bother me too much, but I was just interested to see so many people talk about how quiet it is, as it's not what I was expecting. Thanks again.

[MonstaMunch]

- sorry, double post-

[The Jesus]

There's a justification? I thought it was just e-peen.

/sarcasm

[basserdan]

More rad than I need with fans that barely turn, everything nicely oc'd and small temp swings. Something cool about that!

Doing it all with hardly any noise is pretty sweet. Especially, the ridiculousness of air cooling gpu(s).

[matari]

As I said, I am not of fan of buying cheap ass gear. You get what you pay for. Tubing and barbs for 20 USD? There is no way you are going to keep that budget unless skimp on the amount of tubing and purchase cheap tubing. You should purchase as least 10 ft of tubing. Anything less is going to bite you in the ass.

[lowfat]

As I said, I am not of fan of buying cheap ass gear. You get what you pay for. Tubing and barbs for 20 USD? There is no way you are going to keep that budget unless skimp on the amount of tubing and purchase cheap tubing. You should purchase as least 10 ft of tubing. Anything less is going to bite you in the ass.

If you aren't going for aesthetics then no you generally don't get what you pay for. We are talking like 2-3C difference between a super cheap build and one you spend twice as much on. As for fittings, a lot of the time they are included from the store/manufacturer. So spend the $20 on some good Primoflex. Tubing is something I'll never cheap out on though.

[matari]

If you aren't going for aesthetics then no you generally don't get what you pay for. We are talking like 2-3C difference between a super cheap build and one you spend twice as much on. As for fittings, a lot of the time they are included from the store/manufacturer. So spend the $20 on some good Primoflex. Tubing is something I'll never cheap out on though.

Not all items come with fittings, so you will more than likely have to buy a few. I am not a fan of glued together reservoirs either. The only one that I like is the XSPC single bay reservoir v2. You also have to consider the issue that have occurred with barbs in general both cheap an expensive. For the most part, BP has been on top of any issues they have had with their fittings. While they are outrageously priced, I rather purchase from them, then from some else.

300 USD for a loop is reasonable and the minimum I would spend. 500 USD for both GPU and CPU.

For radiators, I stick with AC, HW, or TFC. They are overpriced, but I have not had issues with massive amount of flux and debris.

As far as fans goes, I stick with GT or San Ace H1011. The quality of sound on the GTs at ~9 volts is phenomenal.

I am not a fan of plastic mounting systems for CPU blocks. They will warp and bend with time. Plastic tops are ok, as long as the mount is not plastic.

[BeepBeep2]

If you aren't going for aesthetics then no you generally don't get what you pay for. We are talking like 2-3C difference between a super cheap build and one you spend twice as much on. As for fittings, a lot of the time they are included from the store/manufacturer. So spend the $20 on some good Primoflex. Tubing is something I'll never cheap out on though.
You hit the nail on the head.

I recently ordered 10ft of red Primoflex and it has kinked in 3 spots despite using the same lengths and bends that I had before with the clear. I guess I should switch to 3/8 ID 5/8 OD compressions as I'm currently running 7/16 ID 5/8 OD over barbs clampless.

I've got the OCZ HydroFlow 800 (at the time was cheapest of the Jingway 1200's) and it's been flawless and quiet since May 2010 running 18-24 hours a day. I've taken it apart to clean the impeller and impeller housing once.

I don't know what matari is talking about as far as cheap ass gear.

The XSPC Rasa is not cheap ass and does almost as good as an EK Supreme HF with more of the "HF".
Swiftech MCR QP are the best all around performing slim radiator with good looks and unbeatable performance to price ratio. Boo-hoo if you suffer 10% less performance compared to a radiator twice as thick and almost twice as expensive.
The Jingway 1200 pump, while a little over twice as big as a Laing DDC 3.2 18w gives similar performance (to a stock top) and good build quality. Not cheap ass.
Swiftech MCRES v2 might not look as nice as a tube res to some but gets the job done and offers great fexibility.
Yate Loons are known performers, once they get old you lube them back up again and they are good as new.

This is cheap:
XSPC Rasa (amazing block at $40 on sale @ PPC and same price stuff is cheap ass.) $30/40
MCR220/320-QP $40/50
EK DCP 2.2 $45
MCRES v2 $20
Included barbs $0-5
10ft ClearFlex 3/8 - 5/8 $13
2x Yate Medium or high $7

$155-175...will still net 10c over high end air and same fans.

Corsair H100's are $120... they have aluminum radiators, weak ass pumps and coolant that is probably concentrated with propylene glycol and another corrosion inhibitor. Which would you rather have for $25-45 more?

[Gorki]

Yes all this excitement is nice specially prices, considering you live in states and you're even able to make local pickup, and what what about others who are not able to buy from two (or more) stores since shipping for me costs 80$ >> if you sum that up you probably wont buy each item at cheapest.com.
Don't wont to sound rude, but there are many abroad buyers aswell.

And (good) fittings are expensive like hell, even metal clamps are not that cheap, better use some metal wire from my garage and pliers to tighten those hoses. lol.
Personally I think WC this is probably the most future prof investment overall.... ;)

[LvMike]

I thought it was 3db per doubling of fans, which would be a 13db increase for 20 fans, not 26db?

I was soing sound pressure level.

In would be 13 dB of sound power level.

Here is a good calculator.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/adding-decibel-d_63.html

[gabe]

In our world, we fight to shave off 0.5C.. so 10-13C is a world apart.

but from your prospective, I can see how it wouldn't make much of a difference.

as to overclocking, remember the rule of thumb which still holds true to this date: about 2% higher silicon frequency for every 10C drop in temp (or twice the shelf life at equal frequency).

[MonstaMunch]

Here is a good calculator.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/adding-decibel-d_63.html

Great link, math doesn't lie :P Thanks.

[antiacid]

instead of making dumb semi-complaining threads you could spend that time overclocking your processor to some noteworthy speeds...

[Bun-Bun]

Instead of trolling you could do something productive with your life.

And before you come back with you are not a troll I already know you are. Had you actually read the thread you would know that I do know my max OC for both of my chips and if you look in my sig my main rig is running 24/7 4.8ghz while crunching. 4.5 ghz was simply used as a point of comparison as it was stable at the same volts with both types of cooling.

I have a legit question that has been more or less answered and discussed fully. You on the other hand have contributed nothing to the thread other than an intent to incite emotional response.

[Adamantine]

You hit the nail on the head.

I recently ordered 10ft of red Primoflex and it has kinked in 3 spots despite using the same lengths and bends that I had before with the clear. I guess I should switch to 3/8 ID 5/8 OD compressions as I'm currently running 7/16 ID 5/8 OD over barbs clampless.

I've got the OCZ HydroFlow 800 (at the time was cheapest of the Jingway 1200's) and it's been flawless and quiet since May 2010 running 18-24 hours a day. I've taken it apart to clean the impeller and impeller housing once.

I don't know what matari is talking about as far as cheap ass gear.

The XSPC Rasa is not cheap ass and does almost as good as an EK Supreme HF with more of the "HF".
Swiftech MCR QP are the best all around performing slim radiator with good looks and unbeatable performance to price ratio. Boo-hoo if you suffer 10% less performance compared to a radiator twice as thick and almost twice as expensive.
The Jingway 1200 pump, while a little over twice as big as a Laing DDC 3.2 18w gives similar performance (to a stock top) and good build quality. Not cheap ass.
Swiftech MCRES v2 might not look as nice as a tube res to some but gets the job done and offers great fexibility.
Yate Loons are known performers, once they get old you lube them back up again and they are good as new.

This is cheap:
XSPC Rasa (amazing block at $40 on sale @ PPC and same price stuff is cheap ass.) $30/40
MCR220/320-QP $40/50
EK DCP 2.2 $45
MCRES v2 $20
Included barbs $0-5
10ft ClearFlex 3/8 - 5/8 $13
2x Yate Medium or high $7

$155-175...will still net 10c over high end air and same fans.

Corsair H100's are $120... they have aluminum radiators, weak ass pumps and coolant that is probably concentrated with propylene glycol and another corrosion inhibitor. Which would you rather have for $25-45 more?

I also want to point out that going more expensive than these baseline parts to get lower temps, you start hitting diminishing returns for the money extremely fast.