Just bought a Lab water chiller.. quick questioin

[badatgames18]

Dial goes all the way to -20C, water freezes above that.. so what coolant should i be using that wouldn't be too corrosive on a normal copper water block? and i sort of jumped in without looking
it works with 7/16 tubing but can i just use my regular primoflex? or will i need something else?

finally will i need to insolate like if i were using ln2? :shrug: sorry total newb
just checked something... is the Danfoss 1/10hp unit at the bottom sufficient for daily use on a oc 2600k?
http://i.imgur.com/A6rYa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HOSFm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2C0lz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/J25Sw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KCTMX.jpg

[Buckeye]

Moved per request :)

Thats a really nice unit !
Nice find ! :)

I have no idea what to use for fluid, hopefully some one will pop in here and give you some ideas.

[Stewie007]

Propylene Glycol is a pretty popular liquid used in heat transfer fluids. A 60/40 (P.G./Water) mix should give you good viscosity at down to -20C. It is also not immediately toxic like ethylene glycol.

You could also use a 50/50 mix. It will be slightly more efficient as it will absorb more heat energy due to its specific heat being slightly higher. Water has a specific heat of 1.... a 50/50 mix is .850, and a 60/40 mix is .805.

For reference, specific heat is the amount of energy measured in calories required to raise 1 gram of a substance by 1 degree Celsius. Thus, it takes 1 calorie to raise the temp of water, but .805 calories to raise the temp of the 60/40 mix by 1 degree. This lowers its heat absorption capacity. Just wanted to explain that so you could better choose. Propylene Glycol is sold at refrigeration supply stores. Its not too expensive.

You will have to insulate for these temperatures. Its going to be well below the dew point. For -20C, elastomeric closed cell 3/4" wall is recommended. ;)

Edit: URI sells this stuff called freez-kontr'l. Its 76% Propylene Glycol by volume. A little bit of math can help you figure out how much water to add should you decide to dilute it.

http://www.uri.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/PrcTransaction/en_US/-/USD/ViewCatalog-Browse?CatalogCategoryID=q3oKFgIK8OEAAAExZgsOmIV5&OnlineFlag=1

[badatgames18]

Propylene Glycol is a pretty popular liquid used in heat transfer fluids. A 60/40 (P.G./Water) mix should give you good viscosity at down to -20C. It is also not immediately toxic like ethylene glycol.

You could also use a 50/50 mix. It will be slightly more efficient as it will absorb more heat energy due to its specific heat being slightly higher. Water has a specific heat of 1.... a 50/50 mix is .850, and a 60/40 mix is .805.

For reference, specific heat is the amount of energy measured in calories required to raise 1 gram of a substance by 1 degree Celsius. Thus, it takes 1 calorie to raise the temp of water, but .805 calories to raise the temp of the 60/40 mix by 1 degree. This lowers its heat absorption capacity. Just wanted to explain that so you could better choose. Propylene Glycol is sold at refrigeration supply stores. Its not too expensive.

You will have to insulate for these temperatures. Its going to be well below the dew point. For -20C, elastomeric closed cell 3/4" wall is recommended. ;)

Edit: URI sells this stuff called freez-kontr'l. Its 76% Propylene Glycol by volume. A little bit of math can help you figure out how much water to add should you decide to dilute it.

http://www.uri.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/PrcTransaction/en_US/-/USD/ViewCatalog-Browse?CatalogCategoryID=q3oKFgIK8OEAAAExZgsOmIV5&OnlineFlag=1

thanks! just what i wanted to know :)
could you point me towards where i might get the insulation? anywhere that's not too pricey...

EDIT: it's ok to use it with a normal water block correct?

[Stewie007]

Well, if you go to United to get the propylene glycol, you can also get the insulation there. It shouldn't be much more than 2 bucks per foot (sold in 6 ft lengths). It may be a bit less, its been a while since I've bought any.

[badatgames18]

Well, if you go to United to get the propylene glycol, you can also get the insulation there. It shouldn't be much more than 2 bucks per foot (sold in 6 ft lengths). It may be a bit less, its been a while since I've bought any.

thanks for walking me through what stuff i needed :up:
i am really new at this and don't know much :(

[Stewie007]

Oh! I almost forgot. :)

Take a look at the neoprene tubing they are selling at frozencpu.com or sidewindercomputers.com

Its similar to the tubing you'll see in your cars cooling system. It'll withstand ultra low temperatures well. -20C shouldn't be any problem.

[badatgames18]

Oh! I almost forgot. :)

Take a look at the neoprene tubing they are selling at frozencpu.com or sidewindercomputers.com

Its similar to the tubing you'll see in your cars cooling system. It'll withstand ultra low temperatures well. -20C shouldn't be any problem.

awesome! i was going to end up using regular primoflex tubing (not sure if that would have caused problems :shrug: )
last question... is it ok to use a regular water block?

[Stewie007]

Do you already have a block?

[badatgames18]

i have a few.. currently using an xspc.. have an ek and danger den also...

however, i've spent a good amount already and if needed, i'd be willing to buy a new one

[Stewie007]

Anything with Delrin should be okay, as Delrin is good down to -40C. However, I am more comfortable recommending all copper, or all metal in the case of multi metal blocks. You also need to check with the manufacturer to find out what kind of rubber o-rings they use. If they use Buna-N (Nitrile Rubber) then you don't need to replace the o-rings. There are other types of o-rings that are good below zero, I just don't remember all of them.

[badatgames18]

Anything with Delrin should be okay, as Delrin is good down to -40C. However, I am more comfortable recommending all copper, or all metal in the case of multi metal blocks. You also need to check with the manufacturer to find out what kind of rubber o-rings they use. If they use Buna-N (Nitrile Rubber) then you don't need to replace the o-rings. There are other types of o-rings that are good below zero, I just don't remember all of them.

EDIT: if it's the same locations as ln2 then i got it.. if not then i don't
thanks... just bought everything i need.
once i get the insulation... where would you put it if it's just a cpu only loop?
119323

[Stewie007]

There are some insulation guides here on the site.

You are going to need some insulation sheets as well. You should also get some armaflex insulation tape at home depot. Its sold in rolls back in the heating and air section.

Run a search for insulation in this forum or the Vapor Phase forum and you should find what you're looking for. You will need dielectric grease or a similar non-conductive grease to insulate the socket before you install the CPU, and you will need insulate around the socket with your insulation sheets. You'll have to do a bit on the back of the motherboard too just to prevent backside condensation in the event that the "chill" travels through the PCB, which it will; but not that far.

There are several different methods that people use, so take a look around and see which one you like the best.

So to sum up.

1. Dielectric Grease will be smeared inside the socket to prevent moisture from getting into the socket.
2. Insulate around the socket being careful of electrical components and take it out as far as possible in the socket area.
3. Insulate water block well. Make sure to close all gaps. You can use a calking compound around seams that you can't get with electrical tape, or where pockets of air can form.
4. Insulate tubing

[systemviper]

wow that is one interesting water chiller, some real hardware, can't wait to see the final setup... keep the pictured coming

[ZenEffect]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f210/icon22976/ASUS-Maximus-IV-Extreme-Intel-P67-Motherboard.jpg

red and blue areas are neoprene, 1inch thick at top(double layer), 1/2 thick at bottom. I use very little eraser in the cpu socket area, only enough to make it air tight around and on top.. never inside the socket. the motherboard bolts down onto the bench and compresses the backing neoprene slightly making another nice air tight seal . the blue backing that is illustrated is 1 whole piece and does NOT have a hole in the middle.

make sure there are no gaps in your insulation. gaps = air = condensation = dead hardware.

ive use a combination of rubber eraser and neoprene to insulate for use around -20c to -75c 12+ hours, never once had a condensation problem... though the backing neoprene matches the size of a eatx motherboard... so in reality its a tad bigger than illustrated.

[badatgames18]

Thanks ZenEffect!! i don't know where the button for thanks is :(

i'm planning on replacing the compressor... is it going to be as simple as disconnecting the current compressor and swapping it out with a new one? :shrug:

[Stewie007]

Well first you must have the unit recovered. Since its illegal to do this without a license and proper equipment, you should take it to an appliance shop to have the remove the refrigerant then evacuate the system. They can add a holding charge of nitrogen to keep the system clean.

That is, of course, unless you have a license and proper equipment. Given that its an open forum I don't want to assume anything. :)

When you get ready to work on the unit, you can vent the nitrogen charge. You want to have your own nitrogen cylinder and appropriate regulator so that you may purge when sweating the pipes and then brazing the new connections. You must have two open connections. One of them to connect the nitrogen (via yellow jacket charging hose) and another for the nitrogen to flow freely out. You must ensure that no pressure is in the system while brazing; it is VERY dangerous.

What equipment do you have at home? And how experienced are you?

Before I go further, I figured I'd ask.

[badatgames18]

i didn't have the tools :(

one question though... i insulated with eraser and foam, but no shop towels...
i'm running it @ -20C and i'm getting heavy 'sweating' already
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/9819/1006233.jpg
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/4063/1006234b.jpg

Here is my eraser job... i put foam on top.. i didn't have any shop towels, i also couldn't fit foam behind between the backplate and mobo..
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5681/1006225rl.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2038/1006224.jpg
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/4418/1006226.jpg

is my insulation ok? i am afraid to turn it on :(

here are my current temps.. actually turned on so that's a good thing :)
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2628/tempfyo.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/269/tempfyo.png/)

[Stewie007]

Are you keeping the top free just for ease of removal? You should fully insulate all around the block. 3/4" wall is recommended for -20.

I am not a big fan of using that eraser material as an insulator. It keeps moisture out, but eventually it will get cold enough to produce condensation. Most folks cover it completely, but I'm still not a big fan of it. I would favor the use of spray foam insulation as it will expand into grooves and crevices to prevent moisture from entering the system as well as insulating the system. It would require some molding though. You could encase that then and voila, no condensation. Make sure you insulate all tubing as well.

[badatgames18]

Are you keeping the top free just for ease of removal? You should fully insulate all around the block. 3/4" wall is recommended for -20.

I am not a big fan of using that eraser material as an insulator. It keeps moisture out, but eventually it will get cold enough to produce condensation. Most folks cover it completely, but I'm still not a big fan of it. I would favor the use of spray foam insulation as it will expand into grooves and crevices to prevent moisture from entering the system as well as insulating the system. It would require some molding though. You could encase that then and voila, no condensation. Make sure you insulate all tubing as well.

i think that is what i am going to do next time to make sure nothing dies on me... so is it ok to just put 1" foam ontop of the conformal spray? And i did encase the entire block after i turned on the computer... i just didn't at first to see if i was getting any leaks with the 3/8 hose.

On a different topic... i'm using this chiller for everyday use.. how much electricity do you think it's taking up? Don't have a watt reader, and i don't want to find out with my next electric bill lol.

on the label it says 115v, 60hz, 1.2kw... you don't think it's taking up 1.2kw consistently?

[Stewie007]

Get a kil-a-watt (spelling?) and plug it into the wall, and then plug your unit into that socket. It will give you all sorts of usage statistics. It doesn't cost much, I think 15 - 20 bucks.

It is rated at 1.2KW for the rated capacity, so it will be variable at times. Only way to check is to get a reading. Its full system power too.

As far as conformal spray, what do you mean? The spray foam I was talking about? If so, you can stick with your eraser as it is already applied. I was merely concerned with any heat transfer in time causing condensation if any part of that eraser material isn't covered. So make sure its covered. The use of spray foam might be messy, and a mold of some sort would be mandatory for proper shaping.

[systemviper]

So you blew up the board?

[[XC] gomeler]

Holy carp insulate the backside of that board. Those little capacitors around the socket backside can and will get roasted :D This will also reduce the load on the block as you won't absorb as much heat.

[Stewie007]

Good catch, I totally missed that!

[badatgames18]

gomeler;4955053']Holy carp insulate the backside of that board. Those little capacitors around the socket backside can and will get roasted :D This will also reduce the load on the block as you won't absorb as much heat.

thanks i totally missed that part


So you blew up the board?
nothing blew up... part of the board just stopped working. (ram slots) :(

Since it was on it's side i guess some condensation trickled down and got into the ram slots... and the rest is history. Luckily nothing else went with it.

[eBoy0]

I went through the same problem a couple years back with insulation and whatnot. I went a bit extreme with the insulation per the guides and advice people gave me.
I sprayed the entire backside of the motherboard with Lacquer, then I used nail polish around the entire socket area. Then covered the entire block with foam insulation tape, http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/VIRGINIA-KMP-Foam-Insulation-Tape-4E309, basically making a little "house" type structure.
And as for tubing, I went with foam tubing insulation. I wish I still had pictures of my setup, I know they're somewhere. If i find them, I'll post them up. It looked like crap, but it did the trick I had the coolant at like -30c all day.
Edit: Found the pictures.
120361
120362
120363
120364
120365
120366
120367

[Nosfer@tu]

Now thats overkill dude :)

[eBoy0]

Now thats overkill dude :)

I don't know if it was the humidity in Chicago or what, but I tried it with less insulation and the mobo+hardware would sweat like crazy, so I did it right for the piece of mind.

[systemviper]

I don't know if it was the humidity in Chicago or what, but I tried it with less insulation and the mobo+hardware would sweat like crazy, so I did it right for the piece of mind.

sometimes you just got to make it XTREME, very sweet project!

[badatgames18]

i was using pool antifreeze rated for -20C
and look what happened.. froze solid and had to mash it.. was wondering why my cpu was getting hot.. no liquid was passing through
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5401/1006462i.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/14/1006462i.jpg/)

[eBoy0]

Just use some car antifreeze and you're good to go.

[badatgames18]

Just use some car antifreeze and you're good to go.

i mixed some pennzoil in the coolant.. hopefully that takes care of the freezing.. or did you mean replace the entire coolant with car antifreeze?

[Stewie007]

You may not have had enough glycol in your previous mixture. Pool Antifreeze is typically Propylene Glycol, as you can swallow some of it and it won't kill you. For Propylene glycol, a 60% mixture is preferred as it will give you extremely low temp capabilities and PG is a little better with heat transfer than ethylene glycol. Ethylene glycol has a Specific heat of around .7 at 60% and PG has .8 . Its not exactly a big deal, but worth noting.

I am thinking that you didn't add enough of the Pool antifreeze.

[malkiewicz]

Antifreeze works great / when I was in Japan they had many different colors.... I've ran them at -30C without any issues...