Radiator not coming clean

[Odai]

Hello,

I'm currently trying to clean out my new XSPC RX120 radiators, but no matter how many flushes I try (close to 25 now), I cannot get them clean.

I've simply been filling with hot water, leaving some air, shaking for about 10 seconds, and then emptying.

I've also tried running hot tap water through them for about 5 minutes. Doesn't seem to have done much at all.

When I drain them of water, I get small black particles (and occassionally blue ones too).

A certain radiator cleaning solution was recommended to me in another thread, but it is not availble here in the UK and I am wondering what alternatives there are.

I'd appreciate any help. :)

[Gamb311]

Keep it going ;/ I just did 3 rounds of boiling hot distilled water and now no more black stuff. Maybe you got unlucky and need to flush out more is all.

[defect9]

I don't know how it is in your area, but sometimes (about once every few years) the local water authority will do a flush of their pipes, and what we end up with is black and blue specs in our water for a day or two (not sure exactly what they are, but they are mostly dark blue and sorta smell like chlorine). perhaps you're experiencing that. try some distilled water, heat that up, and flush with that and see if it helps

[Johnny87au]

Mix straight vinegar for a minute or too and shake the hell out of the rad, Flush with straight water shake it about, then give it a good rinse with pure distilled water and do the hokie pokie :D

[DexNfX]

I'd keep going until all is clear to be on the safe side.

[Odai]

Hello,

Thanks for your replies. :)

I've been told using vinegar is no longer recommended. I've kept it going but there's simply no getting rid of what I'm assuming is the flux. :confused:

I don't think it's the tap water, as it's totally clear unless it's been put through the radiator. :p:

[voigts]

You can use car radiator flush.

[Odai]

I'm not sure however what is suitable for use with my radiator. As they are designed for car radiators, wouldn't the chemical makeup be different to what we can use with PC radiators?

That, and the fact that the radiator flush I think is designed to get rid of things like limescale and similar build up, as opposed to the manufacturing flux.

[Odai]

The crap in the fitler at the end of this video is exactly what I get when I flush the radiator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9TwhwVlllo

Unfortunately, I don't have the means to create a similar setup to what the video author is using.

What I don't understand is why flushing the radiator with hot tap water for about 5 minutes has made no impact at all on the flux. :(

[XiraN]

The crap in the fitler at the end of this video is exactly what I get when I flush the radiator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9TwhwVlllo

Unfortunately, I don't have the means to create a similar setup to what the video author is using.

What I don't understand is why flushing the radiator with hot tap water for about 5 minutes has made no impact at all on the flux. :(

That's an awesome flush setup, and really isn't too expensive (you can get a lower end filter, that one is made for a house system so it has bypasses and filter change lights, etc).

[Waterlogged]

Halford's has the rad flush (it'll work fine) (Link (http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_21 1647_langId_-1_categoryId_165750)).

I use a big blue Pentek filter for my stuff. Never had any of the crap in the video show up though. :shrug: Black stuff looks like paint chips.

[Computurd]

may sound dumb to you, but i had some gunk in a radiator so i hooked up this filter to it, and just ran the pump right from the outlet back to inlet of the rad. so just a big circle. with the filter in it of course, every hour or so, i just popped the hose off of the barb on the filter, and let some water out into a bucket so that the stuff caught in the filter would go out. that way i didnt have to reassemble the filter each time. after like ten reps it was great :)
there is a cheaper plastic version i think it was 12 bucks.
http://www.aquatuning.us/product_info.php/info/p1486_MIPS-watercooling-Filter-Sixdesign.html

http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u332/paullie1/filtro.png

[Johnny87au]

Never really needed a filter but more and more people are using them now a days, And the fact that they arent as restricive as everyone says they are is making me want one more and more..

[Computurd]

i only used it for the cleaning, now its setting in a box somewhere in here....said it was near zero restriction...but that would be impossible once you start getting gunk in there.

[Johnny87au]

Well i see alot of people using those big chunky aquatuning filters, Suprised there hasnt been any extensive testing done of them yet..

[Odai]

Thanks again for the advice. :)

Is this what I should be trying?

http://www.aquatuning.co.uk/product_info.php/info/p6554_MIPS-watercooling-filter-Sixdesign-POM.html

@Waterlogged, would any brand of automotive radiator flush do? I was considering this stuff, simply for convenience (cheaper, no delivery fee):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Carlube-RAF301-Radiator-Flush-300ml/dp/B00499DFEQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298478507&sr=8-1

[Wolf132]

I'd set up a loop with that radiator and run it for a day or 2 to work all the :banana::banana::banana::banana: out, then use it.

[Odai]

Actually, I just found something similar to what the author in the youtube video I uploaded has:

http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/Miniture_Filter_5_micron_G1_4-26160-p

Could that work? I was thinking of putting it in a loop with the two XSPC radiators, and my pump/res.

[Johnny87au]

how epic does this look for a filter, havent seen this in a loop before.. Might try one..
http://www.aquatuning.co.uk/product_info.php/info/p8646_Aquacomputer-Filter-with-stainless-steel-mesh--ball-valves-and-mounting-plate-G1-4.html

[Waterlogged]

@Waterlogged, would any brand of automotive radiator flush do? I was considering this stuff, simply for convenience (cheaper, no delivery fee):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Carlube-RAF301-Radiator-Flush-300ml/dp/B00499DFEQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298478507&sr=8-1

That should work fine. I just picked that link because I've heard a few ppl mention Halford's before and it was the best stuff they listed.


Actually, I just found something similar to what the author in the youtube video I uploaded has:

http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/Miniture_Filter_5_micron_G1_4-26160-p

Could that work? I was thinking of putting it in a loop with the two XSPC radiators, and my pump/res.

That's for air (in fact, all of their stuff is for air) so. . .no. I've done a bit of searching on Google UK and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of the Pentek type filter over there, and what is available is prohibitively expensive. Running a filter in a loop full time isn't that great an idea anyways as it robs head pressure and it if it should happen to get plugged while your not around...:eek: I only use mine for a day or so then put it back on the shelf. If you really want a filter, check water cooling shops, like ChilledPC which have the Koolance filter. If you want a Pentek type filter, you can get one from Mcmaster.com. They don't directly do international sales but you can correct that problem with www.myus.com. Here's is the Pentek filter I have here that I got from Mcmaster (Link (http://www.mcmaster.com/#4448k26/=b63iej)), get a bunch of replacement filters too while your at it. ;)

[Odai]

Hello,

Thanks a lot for the help waterlogged, much appreciated.

I didn't notice the "compressed air only" description on that web page, my bad. :D

I was only intending to run the filter for cleaning in a test loop, as the modder in the video has done.

Unfortunately, I don't think the Koolance filter would be fine enough to stop the crap coming from the radiator.

I did manage to get a response from XSPC on the issue, recommending the use of bicarbonate of soda. Is this a common method for radiators?

[XiraN]

Sodium Bicarb is typically used to soften water, and also in food (you know it as baking soda). It is also a decent cleaner, just don't use it on aluminum.

[Odai]

How should I use the bicarbonate of soda to clean the radiator?

Is there a specific amount I should use, or should I just saturate some water with it, filter off the excess and use that?

Should I leave it in there for a specific amount of time?

Finally, should I be concerned about it corroding the copper in the radiator, being a basic substance?

Thanks,

Odai.

[Odai]

Bah! I just tried flushing it with a solution containing bicarbonate of soda, then a further 10 flushes with hot water.

Still not coming clean, the water still has flakes in it and the inside of the chambers is just as filthy as before.

Has anyone else had this much trouble with an XSPC radiator?

[Computurd]

good god man. that is crazy! maybe you just have a bad rad? i know the whole filter idea may not sound like a good idea, and i agree for 24/7 use it isnt. but man i used that one in a closed loop on my rad and it took out ALL the gunk. i wouldnt use it for a 24/7 loop though.

[Waterlogged]

Either you have exceedingly high expectations or your doing something drastically wrong...it should have been clean a while ago.

Are you being very careful not to chip off any paint in the threaded bungs while your doing this?...that may be where your black flakes are coming from.

[Odai]

I honestly have no idea what's going on to be honest.

It seems unlikely I've had 4 radiators in a row that are all faulty. I'm sure it's either something I've done wrong as you said, or I'm incredibly unlucky.

I know the flakes are coming from the inside of the radiator due to their colour (and the fact that swabbing the inside with a cotton bud makes it filthy), although the inside of the ports are stripped also.

I uploaded two videos to show you the extent of the issue (apologies for the very poor quality):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJsvri9CPCQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzaQWVIGu30

:confused:

[jcrouse]

... or I'm incredibly unlucky.

That would be mathamatically impossible, must be the other option.


:p:
John

[Martinm210]

I just have a hosebarb screwed into my faucet (I found one that replaced the little screen cap at my local plumbing supply) and run hot tap water through the rad and down the drain. Then swap it to reverse flush the other direction.

That has always done a good enough job for my needs...

[jcrouse]

I just have a hosebarb screwed into my faucet (I found one that replaced the little screen cap at my local plumbing supply) and run hot tap water through the rad and down the drain. Then swap it to reverse flush the other direction.

That has always done a good enough job for my needs...

You then flush with distilled water or don't bother?

Thanks,
John

[Odai]

That would be mathamatically impossible, must be the other option.

:D

The problem is I don't think any new measure will help. I've tried vinegar (on the first two rads only), sodium bicarbonate, cold water, hot water, running warm water from the tap through it for 5 min, flushing maybe 30-40 times, and the problem is still there. I've been pestering XSPC for a while on the issue and they've said it's definitely not normal.

[MadHacker]

I just have a hosebarb screwed into my faucet (I found one that replaced the little screen cap at my local plumbing supply) and run hot tap water through the rad and down the drain. Then swap it to reverse flush the other direction.

That has always done a good enough job for my needs...

:up:
I do the same.
you can even add water down ketchup to the mix...
you know the ketchup is all cleaned out when the water comes out clear.

[Martinm210]

You then flush with distilled water or don't bother?

Thanks,
John

I would suggest a quick flush with distilled, but I don't. I do a whole bunch of various tests with regular tap water and we have really soft water where I live...no problem with minerals around here.:up:

[Martinm210]

Here is a quicky blog...
http://martinsliquidlab.org/2011/02/26/flushing-your-block-rads-clean/

And the images:
http://martinsliquidlab.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/flush11.jpg?w=614&h=409

http://martinsliquidlab.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/flush2.jpg?w=427&h=640

[Johnny87au]

ah thanks for the pic martin, thats epic, Where'd you find the fitting for the tap ??

[Martinm210]

ah thanks for the pic martin, thats epic, Where'd you find the fitting for the tap ??

I found it at one of my local home improvement stores called Diamond Home Improvement. It was just in with all the various faucet fitting pieces. I imagine people with waterbeds need these sorts of fittings too.

I imagine home Depot or Lowes would carry them as well. I haven't looked around much since then...just assume they are available.

I've also got some outdoor water hose type barb fittings, but they don't help me much when it's been below 0 and their is 6" of snow on the ground..:D

[thegcpu]

MLL.org new?

[Waterlogged]

I honestly have no idea what's going on to be honest.

It seems unlikely I've had 4 radiators in a row that are all faulty. I'm sure it's either something I've done wrong as you said, or I'm incredibly unlucky.

I know the flakes are coming from the inside of the radiator due to their colour (and the fact that swabbing the inside with a cotton bud makes it filthy), although the inside of the ports are stripped also.

I uploaded two videos to show you the extent of the issue (apologies for the very poor quality):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJsvri9CPCQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzaQWVIGu30

:confused:

I hate saying this because it may start a panic but, that looks to be corrosion. The same thing happens when plumbers use too much acid based flux to solder together copper pipes and don't properly clean the flux off when they're done. I would try the rad flush stuff first (you may have to do several treatments if it looks "promising" on the first try), then if that fails...can't believe I'm saying this:shakes:...you may have to use distilled white vinegar in short spurts (15 min max soaks, then 2 min shakes, then baking soda and water (60/40 baking soda/water mix) to neutralize the acid reaction (shake for another 2 min) followed by thoroughly rinsing with tap water followed by distilled).

...or you can do the Pentek type filter for a day or so...either way offers about the same rate of success...:shrug:

[Martinm210]

MLL.org new?

Yeah, just my new testing blog. It's really easy and fast to use compared to the old site, so I'm happy.:) I was getting tired of imageshack being down and I was looking for a place to organize the work a little better. I don't have any desire to make this some huge site or anything. This is just my own little testing notebook/blog is all.:up:

[Odai]

I hate saying this because it may start a panic but, that looks to be corrosion. The same thing happens when plumbers use too much acid based flux to solder together copper pipes and don't properly clean the flux off when they're done. I would try the rad flush stuff first (you may have to do several treatments if it looks "promising" on the first try), then if that fails...can't believe I'm saying this:shakes:...you may have to use distilled white vinegar in short spurts (15 min max soaks, then 2 min shakes, then baking soda and water (60/40 baking soda/water mix) to neutralize the acid reaction (shake for another 2 min) followed by thoroughly rinsing with tap water followed by distilled).

...or you can do the Pentek type filter for a day or so...either way offers about the same rate of success...:shrug:

Thanks again for your response man.

If it is indeed corrosion, I am at a complete loss as to how it got there. I've been using only water to flush it, and the sodium bicarbonate did not have any effect (looked the same before and after, so I'm assuming it didn't react with the copper). Unless you're saying it was left in there as part of the manufacturing process?

I do have the option of simply returning the radiators to the retailer, and then I could just either get two of the same model or choose different radiators.

[bmaverick]

How is your tap water??? Is it city, county or well water? So, if you are flush that many times, the problem could be with the water flush being used if corrosion is playing a factor here.

Is your home water even filtered?

A few have recommended automotive RAD flush. This I do with new or used RADs and am satisfied. Fill the entire RAD with 50% flush and 50% distilled water, leave a little space for air some air, let is sit for the day. While visiting here and there during the day, it shake it and rotate it a few times and put it down to sit again. Flush with distilled water and you should be good to go.

The Prestone Super Flush is what I use. The small 22oz bottle is about $5.
http://www.prestone.com/sites/default/p/thumbnails/prestone_super_radiator_flush.png

[Odai]

I'm not sure exactly how acidic the tap water is here, but we do often have trouble with limescale. No, it isn't filtered either.

I contacted the retailer today to request the return of the radiators for a refund.

I'll see what happens with the replacements before I purchase any more cleaning solutions. :D

I appreciate everyone's help, and will update this thread again if I have more problems.

[Waterlogged]

Thanks again for your response man.

If it is indeed corrosion, I am at a complete loss as to how it got there. I've been using only water to flush it, and the sodium bicarbonate did not have any effect (looked the same before and after, so I'm assuming it didn't react with the copper). Unless you're saying it was left in there as part of the manufacturing process?

I do have the option of simply returning the radiators to the retailer, and then I could just either get two of the same model or choose different radiators.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this, i-net has been crappy from all the thawing and freezing going on here lately. I need to get my ISP out here to look at their line taps because at least 1 of them has water in it and it's seriously screwing with the service I'm paying handsomely for. :mad:


To answer your Q, yeah, it's left over from manu process. It's likely an acid based flux used to help the solder flow were it needs to to seal the rads up and it likely didn't get a good flush right away and the acid had time to do what it does. Here are a couple links that show what I was talking about earlier.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/plumbing/msg031237221019.html

http://copper-repiping-blog.com/corrosion.html

[Odai]

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this, i-net has been crappy from all the thawing and freezing going on here lately. I need to get my ISP out here to look at their line taps because at least 1 of them has water in it and it's seriously screwing with the service I'm paying handsomely for.



No problem dude, I appreciate you taking the time to get back to me again on this.

Unfortunately, I've been put off of the XSPC rads by the flux issues I had with 4 separate samples of them. So, chances are I probably won't be using them again. That, and the fact that the barb ports were painted on the inside, which was a major pain in the backside (paint would chip).

[Odai]

I have another XSPC radiator coming in this week, hopefull will have better luck with it. :D

Unfortunately, I couldn't justify the extra expense for my first choice alternative (the SR-1).

I did however manage to get hold of an EK radiator also, which will also be plumbed into the loop. Wasn't nearly as bad inside, a few hot water flushes and there was no longer any gunk coming out. There was some sticking to the side of the brass chambers, but I managed to get rid of that by hooking it up to a test loop, with one of these filters:

http://www.candccentral.co.uk/alphacool-water-filter-plexi.html

Plenty of crap hanging on to the filter when I drained the loop. Cleaned it, and repeated in the opposite direction. Can't see any more gunk in there now. I did upload a video of the chamber (yes, I am that pedantic :p:), so I can ask for advice on making sure it's now OK to use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DioC0cDoY9I

[goodhead]

Dude ur fine, fill/drain w distill 2-3 times and shake

My xpsc rad was fine and didnt have ur issues so prob jus a bad batch

[Gamb311]

Should see my first build using Thermochills 120.3 PA's. I now have ever flowing flux loops. Doesn't effect my temps or flow. But someday I will have to tear this down and open up every block and clean every radiator + pumps. Flux sucks.

[MadHacker]

Should see my first build using Thermochills 120.3 PA's. I now have ever flowing flux loops. Doesn't effect my temps or flow. But someday I will have to tear this down and open up every block and clean every radiator + pumps. Flux sucks.

your not worried about the flux damaging your pumps?

[CedricFP]

After years of using my PA120.2's, when I tear down the loop (every 6 months or so) I still find little black specs and paint chips. Mostly comes from barb threading.

When I first got these PA's, man, the white gunk inside was insane.

[Gamb311]

your not worried about the flux damaging your pumps?


Not really. It's like a foggy flux. Doesn't seem to be thick. Just murky. Maybe it could damage pumps down the road, I don't know. But I'll eventually get it cleaned out for good. Not even sure how to clean pump.
Rads I'll use some vinegar/hot water, blocks I'll open up and just clean well with water/cloth. Tubing I just toss in garbage (have plenty of it). Fittings though I have to scrub real good. PITA with compression fittings. I go through tons of Q-tips.

[Conumdrum]

Vinegar doesn't have the properties to break up flux. It doesn't help. It accelerates the breakdown of the brass and copper if you want that.

HOT water and some good soap, many fills, shakes, drains, rinse repeat. The physical action of the rad 1/4 full, turned every way but Texas and shaken like a madman is how I did it. Yea, it took a LOT of times. When I drained it into a glass bowl the last time and let sit for 20 min, the water was clear and nothing at the bottom, the battle was finally done.

Maybe scrubbing bubbles, or a bit of CLR will help. I dunno, but vinegar won't help.

Ohh, what tubing? Tygon clouds, no matter what.............

[voigts]

I've had the best success cleaning radiators using DOW Scrubbing Bubbles. I put in some hot water just to get the insides wet, drain it out, squirt in the Scrubbing Bubbles until full, swish around a bit, let it sit for 10min or so, and then hot soapy rinse and a final rinse with distilled. This has knocked out any issues I've had, including with the older Thermochill rads that had lots of flux.

[Odai]

OK, got mah XSPC radiator today. :D

Wasn't as bad as the other two to begin with. Only needed about 5 hot water flushes to get rid of most of teh crap. Flushed twice with deionised, the hooked it up to a test loop with a filter. 3 hours in one direction, then another 5 in the other. Here are the results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm_1mRsfIkM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUwJFdkCjOg

Does it look good to use in a loop? There is a little bit of gunk clinging valiantly to the side walls, but I just can't be bothered to continue with this anymore unless it's necessary. :D

[Waterlogged]

OK, got mah XSPC radiator today. :D

Wasn't as bad as the other two to begin with. Only needed about 5 hot water flushes to get rid of most of teh crap. Flushed twice with deionised, the hooked it up to a test loop with a filter. 3 hours in one direction, then another 5 in the other. Here are the results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm_1mRsfIkM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUwJFdkCjOg

Does it look good to use in a loop? There is a little bit of gunk clinging valiantly to the side walls, but I just can't be bothered to continue with this anymore unless it's necessary. :D

I'd call it good. :up:

[thegcpu]

Vinegar doesn't have the properties to break up flux. It doesn't help. It accelerates the breakdown of the brass and copper if you want that.

HOT water and some good soap, many fills, shakes, drains, rinse repeat. The physical action of the rad 1/4 full, turned every way but Texas and shaken like a madman is how I did it. Yea, it took a LOT of times. When I drained it into a glass bowl the last time and let sit for 20 min, the water was clear and nothing at the bottom, the battle was finally done.

Maybe scrubbing bubbles, or a bit of CLR will help. I dunno, but vinegar won't help.

Ohh, what tubing? Tygon clouds, no matter what.............

I disagree. I used vinegar and had great success.

Here is a before and after picture of a new PA that I added some vinegar and it cleared it up in 60 seconds. Ran it for 20 minutes then flushed out with fresh distilled water.

[goodhead]

try vinegar w salt next time the

just took a chem test on acid base dissociation :)

[PatRaceTin]

My BlackIce GTX 360 come with small black particle

I use boil distill water shack it around 30 times to clean

[Gamb311]

I responded to this way back, and now regret to inform I'm on the same boat. I can no longer send back to retailer and have yet to email XSPC. All 4 XSPC360's are non stop particles :(