White House IP Boss: Digital Piracy Costs U.S. Jobs

[Craftyman.]

WASHINGTON -- The top White House copyright cop said on Tuesday that the administration is working aggressively to implement a wide-ranging strategy to crack down on digital piracy and the flow of counterfeit goods, saying that protecting U.S. intellectual property interests is a central pillar of the government's efforts to nurse the economy back to health.

"Protection of our innovation and protection of our creativity is an essential part of our plan for economic recovery," U.S. Intellectual Property Enforcement Coordinator Victoria Espinel said in a keynote address here at a policy conference hosted by the Future of Music Coalition.

Link goes here (http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/secu/article.php/3906846/White-House-IP-Boss-Digital-Piracy-Costs-US-Jobs.htm)

Gov't regulated Internet boo! First news post yay!

[RejZoR]

I agree that piracy is not good, but most of the time they are bulls**ting so much it's not even funny anymore. Because in most cases, completely outdated business models are the biggest reason for piracy. Mostly movie and music industry that is holding to their 50 years old model. Gaming industry has moved a bit with certain modern services like Steam. Not perfect but still much better.

[slaveondope]

I don't care for the way any of this is going.:shakes:


"Protection of intellectual property will increase exports, it will create jobs," Espinel said Sure:rolleyes:

[nn_step]

all political and no scientific data to support its claims.

a complete waste of reading time

[Sn0wm@n]

I don't care for the way any of this is going.:shakes:

Sure:rolleyes:


protecting america's :banana::banana::banana::banana: stach and making sure people in the us gets paid will surely improve our economy .... dont you need tissues after you watched :banana::banana::banana::banana: ... or lubricants etc.... i mean its an untapped market right there :)

[turtletrax]

As time marches on I notice that the government only really gets involved when it has found a way to profit from intervening, or they are heavily lobbied by their corporate frat palls.

Insert puke :sick:

[kuroikenshi]

somebody has to protect the big multi-billionaire companies, haven't you heard of the trickle-down effect?
Big houses of producers for both movies and music make millions, somebody has to protect their profits,

Theory has is that if all these companies shifter from an analog (physical) supply of a product to a digital one (ie steam) then cost of supply would immensely decrease, and therefore drive prices down.

In doing so companies would supply higher quantities, piracy mainly exists because the personal benefit from acquiring a good is so small compared to the expenditure in acquiring it that people resort to copy. Remember most of these people would not acquire the product (DVD movie, Music CD) otherwise.

Furthermore, what happens when you buy a Game DVD, a music CD, of a movie ... and the DISK/DVD/Blu-ray scratches or breaks?

you still did buy the intellectual property right to listen to it, so what happens then? do you get another DVD/CD given for free? NO.

If you purchase intellectual property, you should be able to access it even if you lose it due to accident (hence why steam is so convenient, once you purchase a game you can download it into any machine you utilize so long its only used under your own account)

The archaic system of copyright for music is based on the LP market (vinyl records)

The market has changed, the variables are different, however big companies do not want to give up one critical item... control.

If I know I can buy a movie online (recently released blockbuster) for $3-4, why would I bother to get it from an illegal source? this is where the big companies are failing to see. Also most people only watch a movie once, so there should be another thought for companies.

Its not like in the old days where individuals loved to stack up the amount of movies they had on VHS, the movie market is so vast nowadays that people usually watch a movie once (or twice) and then forget about it.

However for secluded markets where internet speeds are slow or non existent this could not be the case, however you get the double effect that you don't get internet piracy in such segments.

[RejZoR]

Mostly because 99% of movies are remakes. And 1% are actually new unique movies. Whatever i've looked up it was a remake. Either from the 80's to 90's or from 50's. Sometimes they even make a remake of the remake. C'mon!? Looks like they've ran out of ideas in the late 90's and now they are just reheating the already cooked stuff.
WHat's interesting however is that gaming industry doesn't do that even though i personally sometimes wish they would. Imagine, System Shock 2 game, rewritten to work on modern operating systems, with imrpoved DirectX 11 graphics and EAX 5.0 sound. I think i'd achieve multiple orgasms if i'd ever seen anything like this. And would be even willing to pay full price again for it (~40 EUR). Or Need for Speed 1/2/3/4/5 (basically the good old classics), again redesigned with NFS:Shift graphics engine and ready to work on latest OS. I can say for sure that i'm not the only one willing to pay again, because the games compared to remaked movies feel different. You know them but since it was redesigned for modern times it feels like a new game with a taste of known stuff.

But it seems trends are also moving towards this, i just wish more brilliant classics from the 90's (namely i want System Shock 2 remaked as i mentioned above, same for early NFS games). Serious Sam HD has identical content, just upgraded visually for modern times. Duke Nukem is also suppose to eb graphically refreshed (which i also like a lot).
But i'd wish we could get more of such stuff. The only things where i in fact intentionally (lol) want remakes.

[Origin_Unknown]

Might as well stick CCTV cameras on top of our heads to monitor everything we do.

[Sn0wm@n]

Mostly because 99% of movies are remakes. And 1% are actually new unique movies. Whatever i've looked up it was a remake. Either from the 80's to 90's or from 50's. Sometimes they even make a remake of the remake. C'mon!? Looks like they've ran out of ideas in the late 90's and now they are just reheating the already cooked stuff.
WHat's interesting however is that gaming industry doesn't do that even though i personally sometimes wish they would. Imagine, System Shock 2 game, rewritten to work on modern operating systems, with imrpoved DirectX 11 graphics and EAX 5.0 sound. I think i'd achieve multiple orgasms if i'd ever seen anything like this. And would be even willing to pay full price again for it (~40 EUR). Or Need for Speed 1/2/3/4/5 (basically the good old classics), again redesigned with NFS:Shift graphics engine and ready to work on latest OS. I can say for sure that i'm not the only one willing to pay again, because the games compared to remaked movies feel different. You know them but since it was redesigned for modern times it feels like a new game with a taste of known stuff.

But it seems trends are also moving towards this, i just wish more brilliant classics from the 90's (namely i want System Shock 2 remaked as i mentioned above, same for early NFS games). Serious Sam HD has identical content, just upgraded visually for modern times. Duke Nukem is also suppose to eb graphically refreshed (which i also like a lot).
But i'd wish we could get more of such stuff. The only things where i in fact intentionally (lol) want remakes.


so.... up in the air .. michael clayton .. thank you for smoking ... pirates of the caribbean ... national treasure and the list goes on .. are all remakes right???

and how do you call the same plot in all those major FPS games different ???? nahh .. i call it remake done with a twist ;)

[K404]

Maybe the U.S. Government should look at themselves and the U.S. military, given the piracy of the guidance system software.... and I GAH-RON-TEE that costs more than the latest chart CD :p:

Could someone kindly do the RIAA conversion of what the piracy of 1 pop single results in, fine-wise, then guess how much the piracy of that software should go for in court? :D:D

[Sn0wm@n]

Maybe the U.S. Government should look at themselves and the U.S. military, given the piracy of the guidance system software.... and I GAH-RON-TEE that costs more than the latest chart CD :p:

Could someone kindly do the RIAA conversion of what the piracy of 1 pop single results in, fine-wise, then guess how much the piracy of that software should go for in court? :D:D


tell that to the covert op cia spook who gave the go to that silly idea ... of course if you can find him in the system ;)

[RejZoR]

so.... up in the air .. michael clayton .. thank you for smoking ... pirates of the caribbean ... national treasure and the list goes on .. are all remakes right???

and how do you call the same plot in all those major FPS games different ???? nahh .. i call it remake done with a twist ;)

Well, those fall into the 1% space. It's a bit different for the games, even if they are basically the same thing, they are always very different.
Movies are always from 3rd person where games can be both. Even this alone brings a completelly different experience. So far i've seen just 2 movies with such approach. Cloverfield and partially Doom, though both have kinda cheesy situations where any normal person would just throw away the camera.
Doom first person movement felt too artificial, like on rails. Camera on a helmet of a soldier would make more sense since he would carry it with him anyway, be it in dangerous situation or not. Anyway, this is a bit offtopic now...

[Sn0wm@n]

Well, those fall into the 1% space. It's a bit different for the games, even if they are basically the same thing, they are always very different.
Movies are always from 3rd person where games can be both. Even this alone brings a completelly different experience. So far i've seen just 2 movies with such approach. Cloverfield and partially Doom, though both have kinda cheesy situations where any normal person would just throw away the camera.
Doom first person movement felt too artificial, like on rails. Camera on a helmet of a soldier would make more sense since he would carry it with him anyway, be it in dangerous situation or not. Anyway, this is a bit offtopic now...


those movies arent even 10% of what i could come up with that doesnt sound lame .... seriously ... movies arent as much lame as games these days .... but hey .. its easier to blame hollywood then the gaming industry for the fact that people expect to get paid for their work .... ;)

and btw cloverfield was a fail ... and doom also .... if you think gaming is exciting .. how about a change of playing style ... the last game that really got me excited was world in conflict .... the way you play the controls etc... brilliant .... the rest are re-runs of the same classic that brought in lots of money .... hollywood is kind of the same with the big overly budgeted special effect kind ... transformer, avatar etc.... but more then often you get instant classics like the ones i typed in earlier .... i cant say the same for gamming ...

[kuroikenshi]

but more then often you get instant classics like the ones i typed in earlier .... i cant say the same for gamming ...

.....cloverfield the game....???:rofl::rofl:

[Cooper]

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/mattqatsi/Fascism_Motivational.jpg

[osiris999]

Time to fire the lasers.

[ripken204]

so.... up in the air .. michael clayton .. thank you for smoking ... pirates of the caribbean ... national treasure and the list goes on .. are all remakes right???

and how do you call the same plot in all those major FPS games different ???? nahh .. i call it remake done with a twist ;)

you listed 4 movies... 2 of them having multiple sequels which were all pretty much the same thing, just in a different place.

[Arkangyl]

Hmm, I just read through the article, didn't really seem like it was "zomg music/movie priacy is teh devil!!!"

Most of the IP comments seemed more about knock-off goods (China i-whatever knockoffs anyone?) than about stealing movies on the interwebs. Based on all of the knock-off crap I've seen come out of Asia it does seem like a bit of an issue right now. Some US company (lets say Apple) creates a product (the iPhone), they have an Asian manufacturer build it, someone in that factory (or the factory itself) goes and sells a knock-off for 1/2 the price over in Asia and bastardizes the sales of the iPhone costing an American company money and, presumably, jobs.

An ideal solution would be to try and get more of the manufacturing back here in the US of A, however right now the whole money issue (econ 101) is keeping that from happening. I read about a bill (or maybe just an idea, forget the specifics) that the Democrats were talking about that would impose a tax on companies that outsourced production, thus providing a dis-incentive to send those jobs overseas; Republicans shot it down because it had the word tax in it...

Also how does talk of protecting private assets lead to an image about fascism? Do you actually understand what fascism is? It's about warmongering, single-mindedness, and communism (to a degree)...

(note: apologies if I mis-referenced anything, going off of memory here, also not aiming to start any sort of political flame war...)

[HuffPCair]

I love how they protect the music and movie industry, I mean look at how bad they have it in life with piracy going on. Poor poor people with there 1200 cars and 124393402390 houses.

WHY PIRACY WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

[SamHughe]

By piracy if they mean corporations that outsource jobs overseas so they can have a larger profit margin by abusing people in other countries with weak/poor governments while depriving their own people from jobs then yes piracy causes job loss.

In related news: Piracy is responsible from Lady GaGa's penis. "I grew a penis because some 16 year-old kid downloaded Gears of War" said Lady GaGa at an emotional press conference.

[Ao1]

I just wish that the music/ film industry would wake up to the real reason they are losing sales: They are peddling a load of dross. Films are produced on a production line and rely on special effects with no story line. Music is manufactured via “pop” groups with no talent.

Before the dawn of the internet lost sales were blamed on cassette tapes. Yeah I know; most of you will have no idea what a cassette tape is. It was a medium that allowed you to record radio or records. According to the music industry at the time it was the devil incarnate and spelt the destruction of the industry.

[biohead]

Pirates took our jobs!

THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!

TUCK UR JERBS!

TUCKUR DERR!

[Calmatory]

and how do you call the same plot in all those major FPS games different ???? nahh .. i call it remake done with a twist ;)

Plots don't belong to games! :mad:

[fiskov]

It's like no one heres seen both Inception or the Dark Knight, two films i would personally put in the top 25 of greatest films ever.
I'm all for stopping piracy, when movies are coming out for download before the film's even made it to the cinema.. That's just out of hand.

[vengance_01]

I agree piracy needs to be stopped.

[turbox997]

I doubt that piracy is really key to our "economic recovery". Resources and efforts are better spent elsewhere in these times. It's been argued that those who pirate wouldn't have ever bought or watched the movies anyways. I know of people who continue to buy DVD's and go to the movie theaters regardless, and I also know people who do not go to theaters or buy dvd's regardless.

[Dainas]

As time marches on I notice that the government only really gets involved when it has found a way to profit from intervening, or they are heavily lobbied by their corporate frat palls.

Insert puke :sick:

amen, thats pretty much the government of the united states. From top to bottom the laws and policies are all those of the lobbyist....aka CORRUPTION THAT SOMEHOW IS NOT ILLEGAL.

[sin0822]

the reason they did this is probably bc of the drone software thing. you know piracy runs an industry as well as the industry trying to fight piracy, and the industry making the pirated goods. I feel as though more jobs are in place when there is piracy. Anyways i alway pirate everything, haven't ever bought a piece of microsoft software since i bought my first computer. I feel like software, music, movies, should be mainly free, id pay a one time fee and look at everything and deal with ads if thats how they want to make money. But 20 bucks for a :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing cd? you joking me?

[ewitte]

Its a losing battle. For every 1 person trying to improve copy protection and reduce piracy there are 10000+ trying to get around it. I have an idea. Stop all the BS, wasting money trying to make it secure and release it at a decent price and that alone with cut off the majority of the piracy.

[kuroikenshi]

Lets talk a bit about what already exists before someone else posts about it.
yes Itunes, it does exists and you can buy songs and what not.
PROBLEMS:
a) since Itunes only supplies to ipods and exclusivity contracts with clients, they have a monopoly (price givers) (the market does not regulate prices, they do)
b) you cannot compare the music quality bought in itunes with that of an raw music file (or a flac compression) so consumers are also getting an inferior quality product (I am aware that itunes its got its own version of flac files... just nobody uses it)
c) The package as a whole is not very user friendly (I've owned a few different variations of ipod) I do not like them when comparing them to Irivers or simpler more user friendly players

[Sn0wm@n]

you listed 4 movies... 2 of them having multiple sequels which were all pretty much the same thing, just in a different place.



sorry i couldnt find time to lose on naming more movies ... but feel free to think that the gaming industry care for its customers in term of quality over hollywood....

[turtletrax]

Well, as I see it the government should take up against greed. See how far that takes them.

This is greed, against greed, against greed. Who wins? Sure isnt the consumer is it?

[vengance_01]

Its a losing battle. For every 1 person trying to improve copy protection and reduce piracy there are 10000+ trying to get around it. I have an idea. Stop all the BS, wasting money trying to make it secure and release it at a decent price and that alone with cut off the majority of the piracy. I don't think so. People who pirate will continue to at what ever price simply because they don't want to pay anything. :down:

[vengance_01]

Lets talk a bit about what already exists before someone else posts about it.
yes Itunes, it does exists and you can buy songs and what not.
PROBLEMS:
a) since Itunes only supplies to ipods and exclusivity contracts with clients, they have a monopoly (price givers) (the market does not regulate prices, they do)
b) you cannot compare the music quality bought in itunes with that of an raw music file (or a flac compression) so consumers are also getting an inferior quality product (I am aware that itunes its got its own version of flac files... just nobody uses it)
c) The package as a whole is not very user friendly (I've owned a few different variations of ipod) I do not like them when comparing them to Irivers or simpler more user friendly players I hate to say it, Itunes is pretty much idiot proof.

[zanzabar]

I don't think so. People who pirate will continue to at what ever price simply because they don't want to pay anything. :down:

i buy things when i can but sometimes its just ridiculous, like with securom/retail i can ether go to a store just for a game and get a game and infect my computer and pay $60, or i can use steam and maybe get securom normally not but not go to a store and get like $10-30 off or i can dload it in a few min and play it with no invasive drm and no loss of quality, what wins. and if u look they never quote sale just retail sales, ~60% of games on the pc and ~80% of total gaming revenue (all consoles and computers and mobile) is from online purchases, must is something like 90% of revenue is from online.


Its a losing battle. For every 1 person trying to improve copy protection and reduce piracy there are 10000+ trying to get around it. I have an idea. Stop all the BS, wasting money trying to make it secure and release it at a decent price and that alone with cut off the majority of the piracy.

when its easier to pirate and u get a better product for free what wins, drm just makes piracy better.


I hate to say it, Itunes is pretty much idiot proof.

its so idiot proof that they are the only ones trapped into using it

[kuroikenshi]

I hate to say it, Itunes is pretty much idiot proof.

Itunes might be idiot proof, but I feel as if steve jobs is giving it to me up the dark hole every time I see Itunes software.

again I'd put it at the bottom of the list of my most fave music media interfaces... I'd put windows paint before it, and paint doesn't even do music.
:ROTF::ROTF::rofl:;)

[vengance_01]

i buy things when i can but sometimes its just ridiculous, like with securom/retail i can ether go to a store just for a game and get a game and infect my computer and pay $60, or i can use steam and maybe get securom normally not but not go to a store and get like $10-30 off or i can dload it in a few min and play it with no invasive drm and no loss of quality, what wins. and if u look they never quote sale just retail sales, ~60% of games on the pc and ~80% of total gaming revenue (all consoles and computers and mobile) is from online purchases, must is something like 90% of revenue is from online.



when its easier to pirate and u get a better product for free what wins, drm just makes piracy better.



its so idiot proof that they are the only ones trapped into using it While I agree the copyright stuff like securerom etc.. can be a bit over the top. Steam is the future. I can even see console's going to this method of distribution. DRM or not, piracy is wrong and it does not give you the right to pirate games. Put yourself in there shoes. How you would like it if something you worked very hard on for several years, and 10,000 people got it for free.

[zanzabar]

While I agree the copyright stuff like securerom etc.. can be a bit over the top. Steam is the future. I can even see console's going to this method of distribution. DRM or not, piracy is wrong and it does not give you the right to pirate games. Put yourself in there shoes. How you would like it if something you worked very hard on for several years, and 10,000 people got it for free.

im not saying that it is correct, just that when its easier to pirate than to buy something u will have piracy

[vengance_01]

im not saying that it is correct, just that when its easier to pirate than to buy something u will have piracy Most of the hard-core DRM is long dead. Now with steam, steam is the DRM system and it works.

[zanzabar]

Most of the hard-core DRM is long dead. Now with steam, steam is the DRM system and it works.

there is still the newer ubi one, that makes your game crash every hour or less if u have comcast as if u loose internet connection at all then u are done, and there is still the over pricing of games in some regions like the OZ on top of the already overpriced media. invasive drm has been shown not work and thats a good thing for the sales of new titles and for the consumer but the pricing and drm is still off for retail and all the "anti piracy" groups seam to care about is retail sales and that hugely inflates the piracy ratio reported.

[Manabu]

Even if we assume that piracy is taking money out of entretainment industry (that is not true), that money is being spent somewhere else, making jobs. This gives an net gain of welfare (due to the higher efficiency of p2p sharing as means to give people access to intelectual goods, as oposed to Intelectual monopoly regime).

[MattiasNYC]

As usual the Socialists / Communists are out marching in force in these threads.

If not, one has a heck of a task trying to understand why a pro-Capitalist would advocate stealing that which is not rightfully theirs.

If Capitalism works = pay for it and quit your whining!

If it doesn't work = vote for a system you endorse AND treat other products the same way (i.e take whatever you want without paying, not just entertainment).



Or could it be that people are mostly hypocritical greedy d-bags that take what they can get away with and complain when someone tries to enforce the rules?.... I don't see how the above options aren't mutually exclusive...

[kgk]

Most of the hard-core DRM is long dead. Now with steam, steam is the DRM system and it works.

Define "works"

If you mean "prevents piracy", then it doesn't. Steam-only titles are still cracked just as easily.

If you mean "prevents pirated copies from playing online" then it also doesn't always work. COD:MW2 had cracked copies playing online in regular matches for months after release. VAC is a joke, always has been always will be.


Steam works as a system for making game purchases easier and more convenient so as to prevent some piracy by way of "path of least resistance". But all in all it only really curbs piracy for titles that people want to play online. For singleplayer titles or titles with boring multiplayer or multiplayer that doesn't interest most people, they are no more effective than any other method.

I still have yet to see a reason why a boxed copy of a game in a brick and mortar store costs $59 yet the digital version costs the same. Companies find an easier, cheaper way to distribute their titles, raise prices for A-list titles to $59, and then nickle and dime everyone with DLC (which has simply become "stuff we can cut out of the game and then release in 2 weeks as new content")

[Motiv]

For singleplayer titles or titles with boring multiplayer or multiplayer that doesn't interest most people, they are no more effective than any other method.



Just to bring up this bit.

Steam certainly helps companies reduce day 1 piracy. Gone are the days of pirates releasing a game, prior to its official release.

As for multiplayer, if it's p2p, then it will get cracked. if it's server based, it will get cracked, but if the server files are locked away from view, then there's far far less chance of unofficial servers/clients being up and running.

The steam argument usually runs for pages and pages on any forum. Some like it, other say it fails badly. I like it personally, as it's a DRM that both consumer and company get advantages of using.

As for the entire issue of IP and piracy. Well, I know I wouldn't want people stealing my work, that doesn't mean I wouldn't download stuff myself.

The current way of working obviously doesn't work. It is wrong to DL films/music (everyone who does and argues they are being righteous is fooling themselves), but it happens. new ways to make people DL the legal version must be found.

[Calmatory]

VAC is a joke, always has been always will be.

Please elaborate.

Let's just say that if there are 5 working hacks right now with VAC, without VAC there would be 50 working hacks. Not to mention all the hackers who got banned and lost their games along with their Steam account :ROTF:.

Reduces the willingness to try a hack when you know that you will get your steam account banned if you get caught by VAC. And the way they update VAC is brilliant; They silently roll out a new version which can detect more stuff, then when people get caught, they aren't banned instantly. Instead, VAC just silently lets people cheat for a while giving an impression that the hack is VAC-proof until all the detected cheaters get banned.

[vengance_01]

Just to bring up this bit.

Steam certainly helps companies reduce day 1 piracy. Gone are the days of pirates releasing a game, prior to its official release.

As for multiplayer, if it's p2p, then it will get cracked. if it's server based, it will get cracked, but if the server files are locked away from view, then there's far far less chance of unofficial servers/clients being up and running.

The steam argument usually runs for pages and pages on any forum. Some like it, other say it fails badly. I like it personally, as it's a DRM that both consumer and company get advantages of using.

As for the entire issue of IP and piracy. Well, I know I wouldn't want people stealing my work, that doesn't mean I wouldn't download stuff myself.

The current way of working obviously doesn't work. It is wrong to DL films/music (everyone who does and argues they are being righteous is fooling themselves), but it happens. new ways to make people DL the legal version must be found. I agree the model needs to change rather then using invasive DMR. Steam is a good start and could be even better if they put the time and effort into it.

[zanzabar]

As usual the Socialists / Communists are out marching in force in these threads.

If not, one has a heck of a task trying to understand why a pro-Capitalist would advocate stealing that which is not rightfully theirs.

If Capitalism works = pay for it and quit your whining!

If it doesn't work = vote for a system you endorse AND treat other products the same way (i.e take whatever you want without paying, not just entertainment).



Or could it be that people are mostly hypocritical greedy d-bags that take what they can get away with and complain when someone tries to enforce the rules?.... I don't see how the above options aren't mutually exclusive...

with your idea, under capitalism u would only buy things that match what u want and your ideals. and how can u steel IP it dose not exist as a physical product. also to go on that i will be buying fallout NV, i did not buy 3 since they lied about the drm and used an invasive securom and GFWL, enough people also did so they moved to steam and a non invasive platform, if they cared about out right piracy and not consumer satisfaction then they would not have dose steam as its one of the easiest to crack drm methods.

[MattiasNYC]

No offense, but your post is extremely hard to read.


with your idea, under capitalism u would only buy things that match what u want and your ideals.

The fundamental concept of Capitalism is that you have a market on which you sell your goods and services. If you don't want that, then fine. But for that to function there needs to be protections of ones property, be it intellectual or tangible. If you don't have that protection then how can you capitalize on what you're trying to sell?

And to endorse a system where any individual gets to freely choose which goods/services should be protected is to endorse no system at all. If you get to choose what you pay for then so do I. So whatever job you end up getting I should be able to benefit from without you getting paid - not because it's right in and by itself, or because you think it's fair, or because laws say so, but because I say so.

That obviously wouldn't work.


and how can u steel IP it dose not exist as a physical product. also to go on that i will be buying fallout NV, i did not buy 3 since they lied about the drm and used an invasive securom and GFWL, enough people also did so they moved to steam and a non invasive platform, if they cared about out right piracy and not consumer satisfaction then they would not have dose steam as its one of the easiest to crack drm methods.

Sorry, I just don't understand the above.

[Calmatory]

Copy the content = steal.. NOT AGAIN PLEASE! :rolleyes:

Can I steal your car? Can I copy the content of your hard disk? In the first case, you're the one who loses, in the second case, I am the one who benefits while you don't suffer a loss.

Games/Movies/Music are a form of art. I can call myself an artist and paint stick figures, but I don't expect to be paid for it. Nor will every artist get paid, and rightly so. If you go out and buy a CD, DVD or a game, it's not the creator of the art/content who gets the money. It's the one who distributes it, e.g. publisher or record label. Sure, they signed the deal themselves. But saying that people won't get paid who would deserve to be paid.. They don't get paid anyway regardless of piracy.

The creator of art/content doesn't have to care about piracy. It isn't their job to cope with it. And actually, (art/content)piracy is only problem for the major labels. It's always the bigger players, those who gain the highest profit who we hear whining. Isn't it strange? No, they're in control and they can't control piracy. They're losing the control, they can't just put money on marketing and gain even bigger profit. Smaller players just love it, profit from it and take advantage of it.

Actually I am very excited about the whole situation. In not so distant future, my income will most probably rely on content/art which is heavily pirated, and I see no problem with it.

[kgk]

Steam certainly helps companies reduce day 1 piracy. Gone are the days of pirates releasing a game, prior to its official release.

Haha, what? There are still titles seeing pre-release leaks. And who cares about prior release day leaks anyway? They're usually pre-release versions full of bugs and not the finished product. I'd be surprised if Steam puts more than a tiny dent in retail version piracy, as even the Steam-only digital titles are pirated just as easily on release day or very shortly thereafter.


The steam argument usually runs for pages and pages on any forum. Some like it, other say it fails badly. I like it personally, as it's a DRM that both consumer and company get advantages of using.

DRM is not an advantage for the user, unless you feel like trumpeting the laughable "DRM helps companies keep game prices lower for the consumer" argument. Steam as a distribution model is advantageous. It makes purchasing and installing games easier than running around to brick and mortar stores. It's successful due highly to "path of least resistance" and having an online backup of all your purchased titles. Never once have I met a single person who stated that DRM was their reason for purchasing a title on Steam.


As for the entire issue of IP and piracy. Well, I know I wouldn't want people stealing my work, that doesn't mean I wouldn't download stuff myself.

The current way of working obviously doesn't work. It is wrong to DL films/music (everyone who does and argues they are being righteous is fooling themselves), but it happens. new ways to make people DL the legal version must be found.

You're kidding yourself if you think there's some kind of foolproof way to implement that. Content piracy will always exist. Always has, always will. For every more invasive/stringent DRM policy, the pirates find ways around it just as quickly as before. The pirated single player product winds up being even more attractive as the DRM gets more invasive. Throwing down more and more DRM will not curb piracy. It's like trying to plug up a sieve instead of just turning down the faucet. Make quality titles with good multiplayer experiences, charge a reasonable price, and don't delete finished content prior to release simply to hold it back for multiple $4.99 micro-transaction DLC's every 2 weeks. This nickle and diming model that's becoming more widely adopted is what's driving so many people towards piracy. The stuff that makes piracy the most attractive is when people see crap like the infamous "horse armor" for $2.99 or whatever it was that Bethesda tried to sell that as.

The business model has become - lock down a title so that little to no modding is possible, charge $1.99 for a new weapon skin, then $59 for the expansion.....ahem..... "sequel"

I'm not advocating the piracy, I'm just saying I can understand why it's becoming a more attractive option.

[kgk]

Please elaborate.

Let's just say that if there are 5 working hacks right now with VAC, without VAC there would be 50 working hacks. Not to mention all the hackers who got banned and lost their games along with their Steam account

You seem to think that the majority of those hackers were using legit accounts with legit, purchased titles. It's irrelevant if a bogus account with a bogus copy was banned. There were thousands upon thousands of COD:MW2 pirated copies playing online, through bogus Steam accounts, for months. So VAC finally managed to ban the pirated copies that were using dummy accounts after a month, big woop they were bogus accounts anyway. The whole point was that people were using dummy Steam accounts just to play the pirated COD:MW2 copies in regular online matches, using whatever exploits/hacks they felt like.

Everyone is well aware of VAC's "slow roll" approach to finding/banning people, but during those weeks or months they take to roll out the next VAC version, legitimate customers have to deal with people using bogus copies with hacks, ruining their experience. That customer then sits there and wonders "why did I shell out the money for a legitimate, DRM'd copy when people are downloading the pirated version and playing in legitimate games using hacks with reckless abandon?". Then the customers wait....and wait......and wait for VAC to implement a fix/ban/patch. Those users who played with pirated copies didn't lose anything when they were banned since they used dummy accounts.


Reduces the willingness to try a hack when you know that you will get your steam account banned if you get caught by VAC. And the way they update VAC is brilliant; They silently roll out a new version which can detect more stuff, then when people get caught, they aren't banned instantly. Instead, VAC just silently lets people cheat for a while giving an impression that the hack is VAC-proof until all the detected cheaters get banned.

You have an interesting way of classifying something as "brilliant". The VAC rollouts are not silent, they are well documented on any number of sites I am not going to link to here (some of which are just regular forums, not piracy sites). And a reasonably large portion of people hacking in older titles either A) don't care, and will gladly spend the $10 to repurchase the game since it takes VAC weeks or months to find them, or B) are using bogus Steam accounts with hacked copies of the game to begin with.


I'm not advocating hacking in Steam titles or piracy, I'm just saying that VAC is not even remotely as effective as Valve's PR department would like everyone to believe. Simply pointing that out doesn't mean I'm an advocate of piracy or "anti-capitalist" or whatever the other vocal screech owls here are on about. (Not implying you characterized me as such, just saying in general)

[Calmatory]

You seem to think that the majority of those hackers were using legit accounts with legit, purchased titles. It's irrelevant if a bogus account with a bogus copy was banned. There were thousands upon thousands of COD:MW2 pirated copies playing online, through bogus Steam accounts, for months. So VAC finally managed to ban the pirated copies that were using dummy accounts after a month, big woop. The whole point was that people were using dummy Steam accounts just to play the pirated COD:MW2 copies in regular online matches, using whatever exploits/hacks they felt like.

Everyone is well aware of VAC's "slow roll" approach to finding/banning people, but during those weeks or months they take to roll out the next VAC version, legitimate customers have to deal with people using bogus copies with hacks, ruining their experience. That customer then sits there and wonders "why did I shell out the money for a legitimate, DRM'd copy when people are downloading the pirated version and playing in legitimate games using hacks with reckless abandon?". Then the customers wait....and wait......and wait for VAC to implement a fix/ban/patch. Those users who played with pirated copies didn't lose anything when they were banned since they used dummy accounts.



You have an interesting way of classifying something as "brilliant". The VAC rollouts are not silent, they are well documented on any number of sites I am not going to link to here. And a reasonably large portion of people hacking in older titles either A) don't care, and will gladly spend the $10 to repurchase the game since it takes VAC weeks or months to find them, or B) are using bogus Steam accounts with hacked copies of the game to begin with.


I'm not advocating hacking in Steam titles, I'm just saying that VAC is not even remotely as effective as Valve's PR department would like everyone to believe.

Word taken. My experience with VAC is from CS:S, and I've seen an handful of obvious hackers.

If VAC isn't working as intended... There is no working solution against cheaters? PB was breached years ago and there are no other contenders?

[kgk]

Word taken. My experience with VAC is from CS:S, and I've seen an handful of obvious hackers.

If VAC isn't working as intended... There is no working solution against cheaters? PB was breached years ago and there are no other contenders?

To be honest with you, in CS:S they were diligent (for Valve...anyway) about it because it's still a flagship title and a competitive title.

For something like COD:MW2, which used p2p matchmaking, saw a dramatic loss of interest from competitive gamers, and massive piracy for the singleplayer, it just turned into a giant clusterf*ck.

I am, regrettably, one of the purchasers of COD:MW2. I knew about the removal of dedicated servers and the other changes, but thought I'd give IW and Valve the benefit of the doubt. Never again. The first few months in that game was such an epic clusterf*ck of hacking/exploiting/etc that I cannot ever trust myself with an IW title, or something that doesn't support dedicated servers + punkbuster.

The problem with removing Punkbuster and relying solely on VAC is that when the titles being played are pirated copies and the accounts being used are bogus accounts, the slow-roll approach doesn't work. Those hackers/exploiters didn't pay the $50/$60 for the title and didn't use their real account, so they have nothing to lose if and when VAC bans them a month later. Punkbuster served as a decent middle ground there, picking up the slack with more prompt integration of new hack detections.

[MattiasNYC]

Copy the content = steal.. NOT AGAIN PLEASE! :rolleyes:

Can I steal your car? Can I copy the content of your hard disk? In the first case, you're the one who loses, in the second case, I am the one who benefits while you don't suffer a loss.

Bul:banana::banana::banana::banana:t.

What, do you think we who contribute content for you to enjoy do so without spending any time or effort? Do you think that we get degrees and spend years honing our crafts without any cost whatsoever?


Games/Movies/Music are a form of art. I can call myself an artist and paint stick figures, but I don't expect to be paid for it.

Fine. That's YOUR perogative. Not mine.


Nor will every artist get paid, and rightly so. If you go out and buy a CD, DVD or a game, it's not the creator of the art/content who gets the money. It's the one who distributes it, e.g. publisher or record label. Sure, they signed the deal themselves. But saying that people won't get paid who would deserve to be paid.. They don't get paid anyway regardless of piracy.

Dude, with all due respect, and it ain't much right now, you don't know what the hell you're talking about!

1) It's none of your business how the money gets divided
2) The artists DO GET PAID FROM SALES

How daft does one have to be to not comprehend that very basic fact???

Let me ask you this: Where does the money come from that pays the key grip? Or the ADR editor? Or the hair stylist?.... Is there a magic pond in Hollywood where money appears for films to be made?...


The creator of art/content doesn't have to care about piracy. It isn't their job to cope with it.

Really? How come it isn't "their job"?

And how do you know which artist has what deal with whom? When you take something without paying for it, do you do research to see if the deal the artist struck with a label or studio was fair? How could you possibly know?

When we who provide content suffer from piracy and intellectual property rights infringement then it IS our job to cope with it. If we don't we can't survive on our labour. Basic damn Capitalism.

Do you think people should get paid for the work they do? Or are you in favour of Socialism or Communism?


And actually, (art/content)piracy is only problem for the major labels. It's always the bigger players, those who gain the highest profit who we hear whining. Isn't it strange?

Really, is that the case? Those are the only ones whining? Rubbish. But it just so happens that they're the ones capable of pushing for legislation to be enforced, something that just so happens to concern those who copy illegally. Curious situation...


Actually I am very excited about the whole situation. In not so distant future, my income will most probably rely on content/art which is heavily pirated, and I see no problem with it.

Well that says a lot about you then...

[MattiasNYC]

Here's the cast for a major film, people who clearly don't need the film to make money to get paid:

Directed by
Zack Snyder

Writing credits
(WGA)
David Hayter (screenplay) and
Alex Tse (screenplay)
Dave Gibbons (graphic novel illustrator)
Alan Moore (graphic novel) uncredited

Cast (in credits order)

Malin Akerman ... Laurie Jupiter / Silk Spectre II
Billy Crudup ... Jon Osterman / Dr. Manhattan
Matthew Goode ... Adrian Veidt / Ozymandias
Jackie Earle Haley ... Rorschach / Walter Kovacs
Jeffrey Dean Morgan ... Edward Blake / The Comedian
Patrick Wilson ... Dan Dreiberg / Nite Owl II
Carla Gugino ... Sally Jupiter / Silk Spectre
Matt Frewer ... Edgar Jacobi / Moloch
Stephen McHattie ... Hollis Mason / Old Nite Owl
Laura Mennell ... Janey Slater
Rob LaBelle ... Wally Weaver
Gary Houston ... John McLaughlin
James M. Connor ... Pat Buchanan (as James Michael Connor)
Mary Ann Burger ... Eleanor Clift
John Shaw ... Doug Roth
Robert Wisden ... Richard Nixon
Jerry Wasserman ... Detective Fine
Don Thompson ... Detective Gallagher
Frank Novak ... Henry Kissinger
Sean Allan ... NORAD General
Gary Chalk ... NORAD General (as Garry Chalk)
Ron Fassler ... Ted Koppel
Stephanie Belding ... Janet Black
Michael Kopsa ... Paul Klein
William S. Taylor ... Prison Psychiatrist (as William Taylor)
Chris Burns ... Dumb Thug
Malcolm Scott ... Fat Thug
Danny Wattley ... Huge Prisoner
Nhi Do ... Vietnamese Girl
Walter Addison ... Lee Iacocca
Keith Gordey ... Auto CEO (as Keith Martin Gordey)
David MacKay ... Child Murderer (as David Mackay)
Fulvio Cecere ... Agent Forbes
Ted Cole ... :banana::banana::banana::banana: Cavett
Mark Acheson ... Large Man At Happy Harry's
John B. Destry ... Happy Harry's Bartender (as John Destry)
Chris Gauthier ... Seymour (as Christopher Gauthier)
L. Harvey Gold ... New Frontiersman Editor
Jay Brazeau ... News Vendor
Jesse Reid ... Teenager at Newsstand
Manoj Sood ... Karnak Scientist
Dan Payne ... Dollar Bill
Niall Matter ... Byron Lewis / Mothman
Apollonia Vanova ... Ursula Zandt / Silhouette
Glenn Ennis ... Hooded Justice
Darryl Scheelar ... Nelson Gardner / Captain Metropolis
Clint Carleton ... Hollis Mason / Young Nite Owl
Mike Carpenter ... Young Moloch
Leah Gibson ... Silhouette's Girlfriend
Brett Stimely ... John F. Kennedy
Carrie Genzel ... Jackie Kennedy
Greg Travis ... Andy Warhol
Greg Armstrong-Morris ... Truman Capote
Andrew Colthart ... Naked Man At Warhol Party
Bruce Crawford ... Bank Robber
Sal Sortino ... 1940 Watchmen Photographer (as Salvatore Sortino)
Eli Snyder ... Young Rorschach
Lori Watt ... Rorschach's Mother
Tony Bardach ... John With Rorschach's Mother
John Kobylka ... Fidel Castro
Carmen Lavigne ... Anti War Protester
J.R. Killigrew ... David Bowie
Steven Stojkovic ... Mick Jagger
Martin Reiss ... Brezhnev
Frank Cassini ... Sally's Husband
John R. Taylor ... Priest
Tara Frederick ... Aggressive Hooker
Daryl Shuttleworth ... Jon's Father
Jaryd Heidrick ... Young Jon
Ron Chartier ... Carnival Photographer
Carly Bentall ... Wally's Girlfriend
Matt Drake ... Older Boy Bully
Haley Guiel ... Laurie - 13 Years (as Haley Adrianna Guiel)
Sonya Salomaa ... Adrian Veidt's Assistant
Tyler McClendon ... Veidt Enterprises Security Guard
Salli Saffioti ... Annie Leibovitz (voice)
Neil Schell ... Man In Riot Crowd
Michael Eklund ... Man In Riot Crowd
Deborah Finkel ... Woman In Riot Crowd
Louis Chirillo ... Face To Face TV Producer
Marsha Regis ... Face To Face TV Receptionist
Patrick Sabongui ... Knot Top Gang Leader
John Tench ... Knot Top Gang Member
Santo Lombardo ... Knot Top Gang Member
Jason Schombing ... NY SWAT
Darren Shahlavi ... NY SWAT
Marshall Virtue ... NY SWAT
Colin Lawrence ... Officer Kirkpatrick
Chris Weber ... Officer O'Brien
Alessandro Juliani ... Rockefeller Military Base Technician
Alison Araya ... Foreign Newscaster
Sahar Biniaz ... Foreign Newscaster (as Sahar)
Matthew Harrison ... Foreign Newscaster
Bernadeta Wrobel ... Foreign Newscaster
Youri Obryvtchenko ... Foreign Newscaster
Heidi Iro ... Foreign Newscaster
Kit Koon ... Foreign Newscaster
Parm Soor ... Foreign Newscaster
Cristina Menz ... Foreign Newscaster
Lynn Colliar ... Foreign Newscaster
Tony Ali ... Foreign Newscaster
Katie Bennison ... Foreign Newscaster
Ian Farthing ... Foreign Newscaster
Calvin Lee ... Foreign Newscaster
Alexander Mandra ... Foreign Newscaster (as Alexander Sasha Mandra)
Isabelle Champeau ... Foreign Newscaster
Ashley O'Connell ... Foreign Newscaster
Mark Gash ... On Location Reporter
Suzanne Clements-Smith ... On Location Reporter
Agam Darshi ... On Location Reporter
Tom McBeath ... News Analyst
Kevin McNulty ... News Anchor
Mark Docherty ... Newscaster
Clay St. Thomas ... Newscaster
Dale Wolfe ... Keene Act Anchor
Ken Tremblett ... Keene Act Anchor
Dawn Chubai ... Keene Act Anchor
Manuelita Kinsley ... Keene Riot Reporter
Tamara Stanners ... Vietnam 51st State Anchor
Sahara Davis ... Young Tenement Fire Child (as Sahara xOasis Ashanti Davis)
Greig Hospes ... Tenement Fire Child
Danny Hospes ... Tenement Fire Child
Ali Dunn ... Tenement Fire Child
Jeffrey Flieler ... Tenement Fire Policeman
Kurt Evans ... Tenement Fire News Reporter
Sylvesta Stuart ... Destruction Firefighter
Terence Kelly ... General West
Mi-Jung Lee ... A Bomb Test Anchorwoman
Ted Friend ... Larry Culpeper

rest of cast listed alphabetically:

Damon Caro ... U.S. Soldier (uncredited)
Douglas Chapman ... Roy Chess (uncredited)
Trevor Coppola ... NY Swat #4 (uncredited)
Dave Cote ... Man at Club (uncredited)
Saira De Goede ... Girl at Club (uncredited)
Ed Metzger ... Albert Einstein (uncredited) (unconfirmed)
Yoosik Oum ... Scientist (uncredited)
Kennith Overbey ... Village People Cop (uncredited)
Zack Snyder ... Commando in Vietnam (uncredited) (unconfirmed)
Michael Stevens ... Doomsday Clock Scientist #1 (uncredited)
Danny Woodburn ... Big Figure Prisoner (uncredited)

[MattiasNYC]

And here's everyone else in that same film - also people who apparently aren't in need of that film making money:

Original Music by
Tyler Bates

Cinematography by
Larry Fong (director of photography)

Film Editing by
William Hoy

Casting by
Kristy Carlson

Production Design by
Alex McDowell

Art Direction by
François Audouy (supervising art director) (as Francois Audouy)
Helen Jarvis
James Steuart

Set Decoration by
Jim Erickson

Costume Design by
Michael Wilkinson

Makeup Department
Martin Astles .... sculptor: Drac Studios
Thomas D. Bacho Jr. .... moldmaker: Drac Studios
Anji Bemben .... hair stylist department head
Greg Cannom .... special effects makeup
Rita Ciccozzi .... key makeup artist
Rosalina Da Silva .... makeup department head
Emanuela Daus .... makeup artist
Cara Doell .... assistant hair stylist
Chris Dooley .... moldmaker: Drac Studios (as Christopher Dooly)
Chris Gallaher .... makeup effects supervisor: Drac Studios (as Christopher M. Gallaher)
Vanessa Giles .... assistant makeup artist
Aaron Globerman .... silicon technician: Drac Studios (as Aaron M. Globerman)
Céline Godeau .... tattoo artist
Jamie Grove .... sculptor: Drac Studios
Diane Holme .... hair stylist
Will Huff .... makeup specialty effects artist (as William Huff-Keys)
Jason James .... effects technician: Drac Studios (as Jason M. James)
Tim Jarvis .... effects technician: Drac Studios (as Tim P. Jarvis)
Mark Killingsworth .... effects technician: Drac Studios
Jim Knell .... production photographer: Drac Studios
Rebecca Lee .... assistant makeup artist
Carrie LeGrand .... makeup production supervisor: Drac Studios
Harvey Lowry .... production supervisor: Drac Studios (as Harvey K. Lowry)
Christine Mansfield .... silicon technician: Drac Studios (as Christine A. Mansfield)
Sharon Markell .... assistant hair stylist
Brian Meck .... silicon technician: Drac Studios (as Brian F. Meck)
Mark Nieman .... silicone department supervisor: Drac Studios
Geoff Redknap .... special makeup effects artist
Rick Stratton .... tattoos
Miles Teves .... lead sculptor: Drac Studios (as Miles A. Teves)
Miles Teves .... special makeup effects artist
Todd Tucker .... artistic supervisor: Drac Studios
Steve Winsett .... effects technician: Drac Studios (as Robert S. Winsett)
Jacqueline Robertson Cull .... wig maker (uncredited)

Production Management
Christopher DeFaria .... executive in charge of production
Sara Flamm .... production supervisor
Herb Gains .... unit production manager (as Herbert W. Gains)
Jim Rowe .... unit production manager
Andrea Wertheim .... post-production supervisor

Second Unit Director or Assistant Director
Ashley Bell .... third assistant director
Misha Bukowski .... second assistant director
Eddy Santos .... second second assistant director
Rhonda Taylor .... third assistant director (as Thonda Taylor)
Martin Walters .... first assistant director

Art Department
Chris Beach .... assistant art director
Brent Bennett .... set buyer
Michael A. Billings .... set buyer
Ea Birkett .... prop man
Ea Birkett .... props assistant
Brent Boates .... illustrator
Peter Bodnarus .... set designer
Jillian Bunting .... set/prop builder
Lars Canty .... assistant art director
John Cassaday .... concept artist
Melanie Cassidy .... sculptor
Lubor Cencak .... scenic artist
Aric Cheng .... set designer
James H. Chow .... property master
Jessee J. Clarkson .... model maker
Brian Cunningham .... graphic illustrator
John Dale .... general foreman
James Dickson .... art department
Richard Ewan .... miniature painter
Warren Flanagan .... prop design/illustration
Kirsten Franson .... graphic artist
Allan Galajda .... set designer
Jack Gauvreau .... head sculptor
Chris Gilmour .... leadman
Trevor Goring .... illustrator
Aaron Haye .... set designer
Leah Hong .... graphic designer
Adam Hughes .... concept artist
Martina Javorova .... assistant art director
Patrick Kearns .... on-set dresser
Franziska Keller .... art department coordinator: prep
Jan Kobylka .... construction coordinator
Ray Lai .... graphic illustrator
Jason B. Landels .... assistant property master
Catherine Leighton .... assistant property master
Andrew Li .... set designer
Scott Lukowski .... concept illustrator
Rohan Lyal .... head greensman
Jaydene Maryk .... art department coordinator
Sam McGowan .... lead plasterer
Dale Menzies .... construction foreman
J.J. Mestinsek .... scenic artist
Jay Mitchell .... set designer
Darren Moore .... lead greensperson
Chad Neufeld .... carpenter
Paul Ozzimo .... conceptual illustrator
Neville Page .... creature designer: sculptor
Dan Petrescu .... paint foreman
Hamish Purdy .... assistant set decorator
Andrew Reid .... buyer
Steve Reintjes .... paint foreman
Michel Rheault .... construction buyer
Guy Roland .... set dresser
Rich Romig .... set designer
Francisco Rosa .... plasterer (2009)
Lauren Ruggeri .... art department assistant
Rodrigo Segovia .... set designer (as Rodirigo Segovia)
Dean Sherriff .... illustrator
Maya Shimoguchi .... set designer
James Steuart .... set designer
Bryan Sutton .... set designer
Michael Toby .... model maker
Mario Tomas-Niedworok .... paint coordinator
Grant Van Der Slagt .... set designer
Barbara Wilson .... assistant art director
Patrick Zahorodniuk .... graphic designer

Sound Department
Brad Brock .... foley mixer
Michael J. Broomberg .... foley artist (as Mike Broomberg)
Eddie Bydalek .... sound mix technician
Robert Carr .... sound mix technician
Matt Dawson .... adr mixer
Joe Dorn .... adr editor
Tim Gedemer .... sound effects editor
Gary A. Hecker .... foley artist (as Gary Hecker)
Scott Hecker .... supervising sound editor
Denise Horta .... adr supervisor (as Denise Janisz)
Denise Horta .... dialogue supervisor (as Denise Janisz)
Rick Hromadka .... sound effects editor
Chris Jenkins .... sound re-recording mixer
Nick Kray .... adr mixer
Ai-Ling Lee .... sound effects editor (as Ai Ling Lee)
Mike Marino .... foley mixer
Michael McGee .... sound mixer
Frank A. Montaño .... sound re-recording mixer (as Frank Montaño)
Eric A. Norris .... supervising sound designer
Thomas J. O'Connell .... adr mixer (as Thomas O'Connell)
Jason Oliver .... adr recordist
Charles O'Shea .... boom operator (as Charlie O'Shea)
Daniel Pagan .... sound effects editor (as Danny Pagan)
Jeremy Peirson .... sound designer
Derek Pippert .... foley editor
Troy Porter .... adr mixer
Roy Seeger .... assistant sound editor (as Roy 'Royschach' Seeger)
Bruce Tanis .... sound effects editor
Eric Thompson .... adr mixer
David Werntz .... sound effects editor
Byron Wilson .... dialogue editor
Ai-Ling Lee .... sound designer (uncredited)
David Werntz .... sound designer (uncredited)

Special Effects by
Paul Benjamin .... special effects technician
Dan Cervin .... special effects first assistant
Jerry Constantine .... special effects makeup
Dan Crawley .... special effects technician
Michael Del Rossa .... special effects makeup
Michael Del Rossa .... special effects technician
Brandon Ellison .... special effects technician
Brandon Engstrom .... special effects technician
Janet Evaschuck .... special effects technician (as Janet Pearce)
Bill Fesh .... special makeup effects technician: Quantum Creation FX, Inc.
Christopher Gilman .... special lighting effects: Dr. Manhattan: Global Effects Inc.
Vincent J. Guastini .... conceptual designer
Chris Hampton .... special effects supervisor
Nicholas Hiegel .... model maker
Kelly Kerby .... pyrotechnician
Jim Kundig .... mechanical technician
Arthur D. Lindfield .... special effects technician
Aimee Macabeo .... special makeup effects artist: hair
Alan McFarland .... special lighting effects: Dr. Manhattan: Global Effects Inc.
Randy Pike .... special lighting effects: Dr. Manhattan: Global Effects Inc.
Gregory Wade Reynolds .... effects animator
Dale Shippam .... special effects technician
Charles Sowles .... costume specialist
Andrew Verhoeven .... special effects: electronics
Adam Walls .... special effects technician
Christina Adia Wang .... associate interactive compositor: Sony Pictures Imageworks
Joel Whist .... special effects coordinator
Brad Zehr .... special effects technician
Suma Adams .... seaming and patching department: Quantum Creation FX, Inc. (uncredited)
Ozzy Alvarez .... special makeup effects technician: Quantum Creation FX, Inc. (uncredited)
Jason Barnett .... special makeup effects technician: Quantum Creation FX, Inc. (uncredited)
Sophia Coronado .... specialty costumes: Quantum Creation FX, Inc. (uncredited)
Robert Kato DeStefan .... body shop technician: Quantum Creation FX, Inc. (uncredited)
Damian Fisher .... special effects technician (uncredited)
Megan Flagg .... special effects technician: Quantum Creation FX (uncredited)
Joe Gomez .... mold shop supervisor: Quantum Creation FX, Inc. (uncredited)
Moto Hata .... key artist: Quantum Creations FX, Inc. (uncredited)
Carol Koch .... sculptor: Quantum Creation FX (uncredited)
Steve Koch .... specialty costumes sculptor: Quantum Creation FX, Inc. (uncredited)
Jacqueline Makkee .... seaming and patching department: Quantum Creation FX, Inc. (uncredited)
Walter Phelan .... special makeup effects technician: Quantum Creation FX, Inc. (uncredited)
Justin Raleigh .... prosthetic suits supervisor: Quantum Creation FX Inc. (uncredited)
Justin Raleigh .... specialty costumes: Quantum Creation FX, Inc. (uncredited)
Ray Shaffer .... special effects lab technician: Quantum Creation FX, Inc. (uncredited)
Brett Stern .... special effects costume painter: Quantum Creation FX, Inc. (uncredited)
Chris Wolters .... mechanical designer: Quantum Creation FX, Inc. (uncredited)

Visual Effects by
Gary Abrahamian .... animation lead: CIS Hollywood
Matthew Adams .... 2D supervisor: MPC
Michael Adkisson .... senior compositor
Laide Agunbiade .... compositor
Laide Agunbiade .... senior lighting technical director
Frank Akrong .... digital compositor
Paul Alexiou .... visual effects film editorial: MPC
Ian Allard .... digital artist
Enrico Altmann .... model maker: New Deal Studios
Vinicio Alvarez .... senior production services technician
Tim Angulo .... director of photography: New Deal Studios
Suzie Askham .... matchmove artist
Greg Astles .... 2d supervisor: Intelligent Creatures, Inc.
Govardhan Bakthavachalam .... matchmove artist: Imageworks India
Jesse Balodis .... matte painting
Kelly Barschig .... recruiter: SPI
Jean-Paul Beaulieu .... lighting and compositing artist
Darren A. Bell .... visual effects executive producer: Intelligent Creatures Inc.
Chad Belteau .... lighting and compositing technical director
Jeff Benjamin .... lead production services technician
Jeffrey Benoit .... pre-visualization artist
Ori Ben-Shabat .... compositor: Image Engine
Eli Best .... visual effects production assistant
Dan Blank .... compositor
Sarah Blank .... digital compositor (as Sarah Birns)
Alex Blatt .... additional visual effects editor
Douglas Bloom .... visual effects
Michael Boggs .... scanning manager
Landon Bootsma .... compositor: MPC
Jayni Borgaro .... compositor: CIS Hollywood
Jelmer Boskma .... previs modeler
Alan Boucek .... compositing supervisor: yU+Co
Jean-Christophe Boue .... digital compositor: Intelligent Creatures
E.M. Bowen .... visual effects coordinator: New Deal Studios, Inc.
Dhiraj Brahma .... roto artist: SPII
Michael Brazelton .... digital compositor: MPC
Danielle Brooks .... CG artist
Randy Brown .... compositor: CIS Hollywood
Max Bruce .... CG supervisor
Jeff Bruneel .... senior digital compositor: Intelligent Creatures
Wendell Bruno .... assistant DMR editor (IMAX version)
Izet Buco .... digital compositor
Jose Burgos .... lead technical director: MPC Vancouver
Matt Burlingame .... model maker: New Deal Studios
Elika Burns .... roto/paint artist: CIS Hollywood
Elika Burns .... roto/paint supervisor: CIS Hollywood
Jeremy Burns .... visual effects
Naomi Butler .... roto/prep artist
Melissa Cabrera .... visual effects producer: Hirota Paint Industries
Steve Cady .... lead animator: Intelligent Creatures
Allison Cain .... sequence producer
David Cameron .... visual effects
Dan Camp .... technical animator: SPI
Joe Carhart .... visual effects production assistant
Joseph Carson .... visual effects editor
Anthony Ceccomancini .... production manager
Joshua Chapel .... technical director
Freddy Chavez Olmos .... compositor: Image Engine (as Freddy Chavez)
Freddy Chavez Olmos .... visual effects compositor (as Freddy Chavez)
Dominic Cheung .... 3D artist: Intelligent Creatures
Hyemee Choi .... lighter
Jangwoo Choi .... senior modeler
Scott Seungpil Chung .... effects technical director: CIS Hollywood
Katarzyna Cieryt .... lighting artist
Rhys Claringbull .... asset lead: MPC
Rhys Claringbull .... lighting artist: MPC
Craig Clarke .... digital compositor
Oli Clarke .... layout artist: MPC
Jessee J. Clarkson .... modelmaker
Miodrag Colombo .... digital compositor: The Moving Picture Company
Jerry Corda-Stanley .... senior TD -Rorscahch look development and lighting pipeline: Intelligent Creatures
Chris Coupland .... visual effects editor: MPC UK
Garrett Cox .... visual effects
Craig Crawford .... compositor: CIS Hollywood
Kevin Culhane .... character rigger: CIS Hollywood
Will Cunningham .... senior effects technical director
Seth Curlin .... model maker: New Deal Studios
Glenn Curry .... digital effects artist: MPC
Mark Curtis .... compositor
Christopher Davies .... render wrangler
Paul A. Davies .... character animator
Adam Davis .... crowd pipeline td
Dean Deakyne .... visual effects artist
Lisa Deaner .... senior Flame artist
Yoshi DeHerrera .... visual effects artist: 3D scanning & modeling
Stanley A. Dellimore .... head of layout: MPC
Owen Demers .... texture/matte painter
Claudio de Oliveira .... rotoscoping artist
Purva Deshpande .... digital artist (IMAX version)
John 'D.J.' Des Jardin .... visual effects supervisor
Matt Dessero .... lead lighting and compositing
Ben Dickson .... digital compositor: Rising Sun Pictures
John Dietz .... visual effects producer: Rising Sun Pictures
Jeff Dillinger .... lighting and compositing
Ben Dishart .... texture artist: CIS Hollywood
Thai Son Doan .... digital compositor
Waylon Dobson .... modeler: CIS Hollywood
Jonny Doig .... 3D department manager: MPC
Tom Dow .... layout artist: MPC
Nick Drew .... visual effects production manager: CIS London
Steven Dugaro .... pipeline technical director
Gord Dunick .... visual effects set supervisor
Minh Duong .... modeler
Ty Duperron .... modeler: previz
Noel Eaton .... senior production services technician
Elayaraja .... visual effects coordinator
Janeen Elliott .... compositor: Image Engine
Michael Elson .... executive producer: MPC
Fish Essenfeld .... senior technical director
Ian Fallon .... render wrangler: MPC
Michael Fessenden .... visual effects artist: Entity FX
Forest Fischer .... model crew chief: New Deal Studios
Lisa Fisher .... paint and rotoscope artist: CIS Hollywood
Jordan Flanagan .... digital compositor
Jerome Fournier .... visual effects
Richard Fox .... digital compositor
Nick Fredin .... pre-viz animator
James French .... previs animator
Nihal Friedel .... lighting technical director: MPC
Mathias Frodin .... compositor: CIS Hollywood
Jigesh Gajjar .... matchmove supervisor: The Moving Picture Company
William Gammon .... senior compositor: Rising Sun Pictures
Rasshi Ganeriwal .... visual effects production assistant: Intelligent Creatures, Inc
Julia Gaudette .... visual effects production manager: CIS Hollywood
Daniel Gaudreau .... digital compositor
P. Whitney Gearin .... digital effects production supervisor
Mikael Genachte-Lebail .... digital artist: MPC
Clement Gerard .... head of environment: MPC london
Deborah Giarratana .... visual effects executive
Greg Gibbons .... matte painting supervisor: Intelligent Creatures
Peter Giliberti .... animator
Ben Gillingham-Sutton .... digital paint and rotoscope artist
Rocco Gioffre .... matte artist: Svengali FX
Alex Gitler .... compositor: CIS Hollywood
Alex Gitler .... digital compositor
Alex Gitler .... visual effects: CIS Hollywood
Lisa Gonzalez .... modeller: MPC
Demian Gordon .... special projects: pipeline
Virginie Goulet .... digital compositor
John Grotelueschen .... senior production services technician
Omar Gudjonsson .... compositor
Glen Gustafson .... matte painter
Martin Halle .... effects technical director
Brian Hamblin .... editorial technical manager: SPI
Chris Hardman .... matchmove artist: The Moving Picture Company
Jim Cody Harrington .... senior effects technical director
Jim Cody Harrington .... senior visual effects technical director
Michael Hatton .... visual effects production executive: Intelligent Creatures Inc.
Parag Havaldar .... lead software engineer
Jason Heapy .... visual effects producer
Oliver Hearsey .... matchmove artist: The Moving Picture Company
Joe Henke .... digital effects supervisor: CIS Hollywood
Nicole Herr .... digital character animator: SPI
Jeff Higgins .... research & development technical director
Bryan Hirota .... visual effects supervisor: CIS Hollywood
Alex Hislop .... matchmove
Sam Hodge .... compositor: rising sun pictures
Andrew Hogden .... junior compositor
Jean Ho .... digital effects coordinator
Christopher Holland .... additional assistant editor: DMR (IMAX version)
Justin Holt .... digital matte painter: MPC
Justin Holt .... senior texture painter: MPC
Carl Hooper .... effects animation lead
Rob House .... senior technical director
Brian Howald .... digital effects artist
Wade Howie .... visual effects artist
Pearl Hsu .... 3D artist: Intelligent Creatures
John Hughes .... senior effects technical director: SPI
Chris Hung .... senior technical director
Alwyn Hunt .... senior texture artist: MPC
Matthew Hunt .... render wrangler
Neil Huxley .... main title designer/art director: yU+Co
Bridget Immelman .... model shop coordinator
Jonna Isotalus .... digital artist: Hirota Paint Industries
Justin Israel .... senior production service technician: SPI
Mike Jahnke .... animator: previz
Jeffrey Jasper .... digital artist: New Deal Studios
Alicia Johnson .... visual effects coordinator
Helen Johnson .... roto/prep artist
Linden Johnson .... visual effects (as Linden Wineland Johnson)
Dennis Jones .... visual effects supervisor
Keith Jones .... roto/prep artist
Marc Jones .... matchmove artist: MPC
Owen Jones .... lead matchmove artist
Jason Jue .... digital compositor: Hirota Paint Industries
Howard Julian .... layout artist: MPC
Mark Justison .... compositor: CIS Hollywood
Mark Justison .... roto/paint artist: CIS Hollywood
Terry Kalinich .... animator
Terry Kalinich .... rigger
Patricia Kavanaugh .... digital effects artist
Patrick Kavanaugh .... digital effects supervisor: CIS Hollywood
Tyler Kehl .... visual effects coordinator
Michael Kennedy .... senior compositor: MPC
Blaine Kennison .... lighting and compositing technical director: SPI
Peng Ke .... digital compositor: MPC
Tim Ketzer .... lighting technical director
Val Kharitonashvili .... effects technical director: SPI
Sithiriscient Khay .... digital matter painter
Kareem K.H. .... digital compositor
Elaine Kieran .... software research and development: MPC
Bernhard Kimbacher .... digital artist: Image Engine
Louis Kim .... compositor: Image Engine
Seunghyuk Kim .... senior effects technical director
Ken Satchel King .... senior character animator: SPI (as Ken "Satchel" King)
Gyuri Kiss .... effects lead
Ranjith Kizakkey .... matchmove lead
Jeffrey Klug .... systems engineer: Intelligent Creatures
Marta Knudsen .... matte painter: CIS Hollywood
Lev Kolobov .... rorschach effect designer: Intelligent Creatures
Stephen Kowalski .... senior systems architect
Daniel Kramer .... digital effects supervisor
Sylvia Kratzsch .... lighting technical director: MPC
John Kreidman .... digital production manager
E. Suresh Kumar .... digital effects artist
Joosten Kuypers .... senior lighting and compositing technical director: SPI
Giselle Kymberly .... digital compositor
Bill LaBarge .... effects animation lead
Luis Labrador .... senior character modeler
Daniel La Chapelle .... digital effects artist
Alex Lama .... compositor: Image Engine
Ken Lam .... senior technical director: color and lighting (SPI )
Ken Lam .... compositor: Moving Picture Company
Ken Lam .... digital compositor
Jean Lapointe .... compositing sequence supervisor: MPC
Pedro Lara .... digital compositor: MPC
Shandy Lashley .... visual effects coordinator
Stuart Lashley .... sequence lead
Mike Lasker .... lighting technical director
Jesus Lavin .... compositor: Image Engine
Michelle Ledesma .... visual effects coordinator
Sean Lewkiw .... technical head of 3D
Gregory D. Liegey .... compositor: CIS Hollywood
Kirk Lilwall .... third assistant editor: DMR (IMAX version)
Lyndon Li .... senior technical director
Bryan Litson .... lighting technical director
Randy Little .... digital compositor: title designer
Chris Logan .... cloth & hair lead
Justin Long .... vfx artist - camera dept: Rising Sun Pictures
Steven Lovell .... visual effects
Matthias Lowry .... digital compositor
Keith Luczywo .... associate production manager
Stephen Lunn .... lighting and compositing sequence lead
Matthew Lynch .... visual effects bidding producer: Intelligent Creatures
Bob Lyss .... compositor: CIS Hollywood
Damien Macé .... concept artist
Darren MacKay .... digital compositor
Dawn Brooks Macleod .... visual effects producer: Image Engine
Heather MacPhee .... paint and rotoscope artist: CIS Hollywood
Kevin Mah .... effects & lighting technical director: Intelligent Creatures Inc.
Mike Marcuzzi .... digital artist (IMAX version)
Javad Matoorian-Pour .... roto/prep
Alan McCabe .... 3D lighting artist: MPC
George McCarthy .... visual effects editor
Andrew McDonald .... head of modeling: MPC
Kenn McDonald .... animation supervisor
Shannon McGee .... senior technical director: SPI
Nakia McGlynn .... lighting technical director: The Moving Picture Company
Chuck McIlvain .... visual effects artist
Ian McIntosh .... visual effects coordinator
Sarah McLauchlan .... vfx editor: Rising Sun PIctures
James McPhail .... digital effects artist: Image Engine
Antonio Meazzini .... digital paint artist
John J. Meehan .... animator
Ximena Melendez .... visual effects coordinator
Diana Miao .... CG supervisor: CIS Hollywood
Diana Miao .... texture & lighting supervisor: CIS Hollywood
Pericles Michielin .... character animator: SPI
Matt Middleton .... sequence lead
Ellen E. Miki .... prep artist
Jacob Curtis Miller .... digital artist: Image Engine
Katie Miller .... coordinator assistant: CIS Hollywood
Katie Miller .... production assistant: CIS Hollywood
Ryan Mintenko .... lighter: MPC
Michele Moen .... matte painter: Svengali VFX
Lon Molnar .... visual effects supervisor: Intelligent Creatures
Sarah Moore .... lighting & compositing: SPI
Koji Morihiro .... animator
Jean-Francois Morissette .... senior matchmover
David Antonin Mucci .... sequence supervisor
Tricia Mulgrew .... visual effects production supervisor
Ryan Mullany .... digital artist
Tim Mulvihill .... visual effects editor
Adil Mustafabekov .... matte painter: SPI
Serena Naramore .... digital compositor
Jarrod Nesbit .... senior visual effects coordinator
Steve Newburn .... model maker: New Deal Studios
Mark Newport .... effects support
Jeff Newton .... CG supervisor
Adele Ng .... 3d artist: Intelligent Creatures
Leila Nicotera .... visual effects artist
Jordan Nieuwland .... digital matte artist
Chris Nokes .... visual effects line producer: Intelligent Creatures
James P. Noon .... tracking
Sam Norman .... digital compositor: Rising Sun Pictures
Nick Ocean .... visual effects production assistant
Joshua Ochoa .... motion capture supervisor
Roma O'Connor .... visual effects executive producer
Gregory Oehler .... senior compositor: CIS Hollywood
Stephen Olsen .... mocap artist
Jonathan Opgenhaffen .... lead cgi artist: CIS London
Ellery Ortiz .... matchmove artist
Scott Parker .... systems engineer: Intelligent Creatures
Isaac Partouche .... animation
Isaac Partouche .... motion capture director
Stephen Paschke .... effects technical director: MPC
Luca Pataracchia .... senior effects technical director
Simon Payne .... character rigger
Geoff Pedder .... look development lead: MPC Vancouver
Tom C. Peitzman .... visual effects producer (as Tom Peitzman)
Joseph Pepper .... senior technical director
Tom Perry .... lighting technical director: Intelligent Creatures
Derek Peterson .... storyboard coordinator
Rob Pieke .... research and development: MPC
Jason Pomerantz .... digital artist (IMAX version)
Eric Ponton .... digital compositor: Rising Sun Pictures
Josa Leah 'SDB' Porter .... production manager: Intelligent Creatures
Shaun Anthony Portillo .... visual effects artist
Pavan Kumar Potluri .... senior digital compositor
Donna Poynton .... roto/prep artist
Olivier Pron .... head of matte painting: MPC
Mark Pullyblank .... previz animator
Paul Pytlik .... digital artist (IMAX version)
The-Hung Quach .... texture painter
Neil Rafuse .... digital compositor
Søren Ragsdale .... look development: shader artist: SPI
Balaji Ramakrishna .... digital compositor
Sandesh Ramdev .... rotoscoping lead
C.R. Ramkumar .... digital compositor
Ollie Rankin .... motion capture director
Donny Rausch .... lighting and compositing
Nicholas David Reed .... matchmove artist
Nicholas David Reed .... visual effects
Tom Reed .... head of rigging: MPC
Arturo Revilla .... matchmover: Intelligent Creatures
Hannes Ricklefs .... research and development: mpc
Scott Riopelle .... lead digital compositor: Intelligent Creatures
Becky Roberts .... visual effects producer: CIS London
Ben Roberts .... digital compositor: Rising Sun Pictures
Liz Roberts .... visual effects production manager: MPC
Pau Rocher .... digital compositor: Intelligent Creatures
Cabral Rock .... visual effects coordinator: MPC
Joseph Rosensteel .... lighting & compositing technical director: SPI
Toby Rosen .... visual effects technician
Jeya Ruban .... digital compositor
Chris Ryan .... cg supervisor: CIS Hollywood
Kayte Sabicer .... model maker intern: New Deal Studios
Frank Sacco .... lead animator: Intelligent Creatures
Avi Salem .... compositor
Marc-Andre Samson .... senior matte painter
Elizabeth Schafer .... digital coordinator
Robert Schajer .... pre-visualization producer: Frantic Films
John Schlag .... shader artist
Scott Schneider .... digital set designer: New Deal Studios
Aaron Schultz .... animator: CIS Hollywood
Tom Schultz .... match mover: SPI
Victor Schutz .... lighting lead
Victor Schutz .... look development
Eric Scott .... visual effects producer
Remington Scott .... animator
David Seager .... digital effects supervisor: SPI
Vincent Serritella .... senior technical director
Randy Sharp .... senior modeler
Shervin Shoghian .... compositing supervisor: Image Engine
Adam Smith .... digital compositor
Marc Smith .... 3D laser scanning
Drew Solodzuk .... DMR editor (IMAX version)
Eddie Soria .... digital paint and roto
Kevin Souls .... color and lighting
Marc Steinberg .... senior modeler
Derek Stevenson .... matchmove artist: Image Engine
David Stopford .... digital effects artist
Joe Strasser .... look development technical director: SPI
Youngsam Suh .... effects technical director
Sumit Suri .... digital lighting artist: Intelligent Creatures
Jean-Francois Szlapka .... motion capture animation supervisor
Giuseppe Tagliavini .... digital compositor: MPC
Aaron Tankenson .... recruiter: SPI
George Taylor .... compositor
Saravanan Thanikachalam .... matchmove artist
David Thompson .... digital compositor
Richard Thwaites .... visual effects production manager: Rising Sun Pictures
Tim M. Townsend .... layout artist: MPC
Peter G. Travers .... visual effects supervisor
Max Tyrie .... senior character animator
Carolyn Uy .... senior technical director
George Vajna .... second assistant DMR editor (IMAX version)
Kristafer Vale .... character setup artist
James Valentine .... paint & rotoscoping artist: CIS Hollywood
Brad van Bodegom .... digital artist (IMAX version)
Theo Vandernoot .... CG supervisor
Theo Vandernoot .... senior artist
David Van Dyke .... visual effects producer: CIS Hollywood
Dana Vanhove .... digital production manager
Fani Vassiadi .... roto/prep artist: MPC
Alexander Vegh .... previsualization supervisor
Karla Ventocilla .... digital artist
Karla Ventocilla .... roto/paint artist: CIS Hollywood
Rickey Verma .... digital compositor
Anu Vijayan .... matchmove artist
Bruno Vilela .... senior compositor
Bruno Vilela .... senior lighter
Tom Voll .... CG artist
Paul Vorsman .... digital compositor
Marko Vukovic .... lighting/compositing: SPI
Pat Wakefield .... digital compositor
Adam Walker .... modeller: MPC
Matt Wallin .... compositing sequence supervisor
Nancey S. Wallis .... senior technical director: SPI
Shawn Walsh .... visual effects supervisor: Image Engine
Christina Adia Wang .... associate interactive compositor: Sony Pictures Imageworks
Jason Wardle .... senior cgi artist: CIS Hollywood
Ben Warner .... senior digital compositor: Rising Sun Pictures
Nathan Warner .... previs artist: Proof, Inc.
Barry Weiss .... senior staff
John Welborn .... software engineer
Aaron Weldon .... previz supervisor
Craig Wentworth .... lead lighter & compositor
Cameron Widen .... animator: Image Engine
Guy Wiedmann .... visual effects editor
Robert A. Willis .... compositor: Hirota Paint Industries
Chris Wilson .... render wrangler: MPC
Matt Wilson .... compositor: CIS Hollywood
Eric Withee .... visual effects coordinator: Svengali FX
Derek Wolfe .... visual effects artist
Samson Sing Wun Wong .... compositor: Image Engine
Stephen Wong .... matchmove artist: MPC
Max Wood .... CG supervisor
Sarah Wormsbecher .... associate visual effects producer: Intelligent Creatures
Rachel Wright .... compositor
Xye .... tracking
Gus Yamin .... digital artist: Image Engine
Elbert Yen .... texture paint supervisor: SPI
Jaehyun Yoo .... effects artist: CIS Hollywood
Jaehyun Yoo .... effects technical director: CIS Hollywood
Jaehyun Yoo .... fluid technical director: CIS Hollywood
Nina Yoon .... paint/roto artist
Bhoopathy Yuvarajan .... digital artist
Kai Zhang .... lighting technical director: Intelligent Creatures Inc.
Bjorn Zipprich .... senior effects technical director
Bojan Zoric .... digital matte artist
Christian Zurcher .... previs supervisor
Matt Ashton .... senior systems: CIS Hollywood (uncredited)
Durai Babu .... senior matchmove artist (uncredited)
Sebastien Betsch .... i/o technical specialist (uncredited)
Cynthia Rodriguez del Castillo .... digital artist (uncredited)
Robert Chapin .... previs artist (uncredited)
Jon Cowley .... visual effects artist (uncredited)
Christian Cunningham .... technical director (uncredited)
Anthony De Chellis .... animator (uncredited)
Boinet Eglantine .... matte painter (uncredited)
Niall Flinn .... effects technical director (uncredited)
Donald Fly .... general manager: CIS Group (uncredited)
Amy Garback .... effects liaison: CIS Hollywood (uncredited)
Alex Gatsis .... animator (uncredited)
Sebastian Greese .... digital artist: Image Engine (uncredited)
Jon Hanzelka .... Lidar operator (uncredited)
Brian Holmes .... systems engineer: CIS Hollywood (uncredited)
Sho Igarashi .... cloth artist (uncredited)
Eugene Jeong .... senior technical animator: SPI (uncredited)
Mike Jiang .... lighting and compositing technical director (uncredited)
Drew Jones .... visual effects executive producer: MPC (uncredited)
Ken Mitchel Jones .... technical director: Intelligent Creatures (uncredited)
Kwang Jib Kim .... visual effects producer: Digitrove.Inc (uncredited)
Seryong Kim .... cg supervisor: Digitrove, Inc (uncredited)
S. Gopi Krishna .... digital paint artist (uncredited)
Russell Lum .... visual effects coordinator (uncredited)
Manikandan .... compositor (uncredited)
Marco Marenghi .... animator (uncredited)
Krista Maryanski .... visual effects producer (uncredited)
Paul Maurice .... Lidar supervisor: Lidar Services (uncredited)
James McPhail .... effects technical director (uncredited)
Robert Minsk .... systems: CIS Hollywood (uncredited)
Chris Oben .... camera operator (uncredited)
Andrea Lackey Pace .... manager of production services (uncredited)
Rik Panero .... digital effects artist (uncredited)
Adam Paschke .... compositor (uncredited)
Duncan Robson .... motion editor: MPC (uncredited)
V. Samundeswari .... senior compositor (uncredited)
Sankarasubramanian .... paint artist: imageworks india (uncredited)
Panneer Selvam .... compositor: Imageworks India (uncredited))
Leonardo Silva .... visual effects artist (uncredited)
Jim Stacey .... camera operator (uncredited)
Mathew Thomas .... senior matchmove artist (uncredited)
Corey Turner .... performance capture data tracking (uncredited)
Sukumaran Lalithambika Vijin .... rotoscope artist (uncredited)
Jaikishan Vyas .... digital compositor (uncredited)
Tim Warnock .... concept artist and senior digital matte painter (uncredited)
Mark Wendell .... senior lighting td: Sony Imageworks (uncredited)

Stunts
Lloyd Adams .... stunts
Fraser Aitcheson .... stunts
Mark Antoniuk .... stunts
Scott J. Ateah .... stunts (as Scott Ateah)
Aaron Au .... stunts
James Bamford .... stunts
Nickolas Baric .... stunts (as Nick Baric)
Loyd Bateman .... stunts (as Lloyd Bateman)
Shawn Beaton .... stunts
Celia Bond .... stunts
Rob 'Sluggo' Boyce .... stunts (as Rob Boyce)
Nick Brandon .... stunts
Dustin Brooks .... stunts
Chris Burns .... stunts
Yves Cameron .... stunts
Kirk Caouette .... stunts
Janene Carleton .... stunts
Damon Caro .... fight choreographer
Damon Caro .... stunt coordinator
Richard Cetrone .... co-fight choreographer
Richard Cetrone .... stunts
Douglas Chapman .... stunt coordinator: Canada (as Doug Chapman)
Mark Chin .... stunts
Dean Choe .... stunts
Tim Connolly .... stunt double: Jeffrey Dean Morgan
Garvin Cross .... stunts
Colin Decker .... stunts
Eclilson de Jesus .... stunts (as Eclilson DeJesus)
Mike Desabrais .... stunts
Duane Dickinson .... stunts
Monique Ganderton .... stunts
Lani Gelera .... stunts
Jason Griffith .... stunts (as Jase-Anthony Griffith)
Kory Grim .... stunts
Leif Havdale .... stunts
Rob Hayter .... stunts
Adrian Hein .... stunts
Brian Ho .... stunts
Dave Hospes .... stunts
Kim Howey .... stunts
Trevor Jones .... stunts
Brad Kelly .... stunts
Ken Kirzinger .... stunts
Jon Kralt .... stunts
Larry Lam .... stunts
Mitchell A. Lee Yuen .... stunts (as Mitchell Lee Yuen)
Don Lew .... stunts
Brad Loree .... stunts
Kit Mallet .... stunts
Darren McGuire .... stunts
James Michalopolous .... stunts (as James Michalopoulos)
Mike Mitchell .... stunts
Gerald Paetz .... stunts
Rick Pearce .... stunts
Holly Raczynski .... stunts
Edson T. Ribeiro .... stunts
Bridgett Riley .... stunts
Dan Rizzuto .... stunts (as Dan Rizzutto)
Jeffrey C. Robinson .... stunts
Matthew Rugetti .... co-fight choreographer (as Matt Rugetti)
Matthew Rugetti .... stunts (as Matt Rugetti)
Raymond Sammel .... stunts
Todd Scott .... stunts
Kimani Ray Smith .... stunts
David Soo .... stunts
Hugo Steele .... stunts
Heath Stevenson .... stunts
Shawn Stewart .... stunts
Rorelee Tio .... stunts
Angela Uyeda .... stunts
Paul Wu .... stunts
Ed Anders .... stunt performer (uncredited)
Krista Bell .... stunt performer (uncredited)
Guy Bews .... stunt performer (uncredited)
Jason Calder .... stunt performer (uncredited)
Clint Carleton .... stunt driver (uncredited)
Janene Carleton .... stunt double: Carla Gugino (uncredited)
Philip Chang .... stunt performer (uncredited)
Raymond Chan .... stunt performer (uncredited)
Alex Chiang .... stunts (uncredited)
Andrew Chin .... stunts (uncredited)
Laura Lee Connery .... stunts (uncredited)
Bruce Crawford .... stunt performer (uncredited)
Crystal Dalman .... stunt performer (uncredited)
Mike Dopud .... stunt performer (uncredited)
Kai Hirvonen .... stunt rigger (uncredited)
David Hooper .... stunt double (uncredited)
Charles Jarman .... stunt performer (uncredited)
Rick Moore .... stunts (uncredited)
Johnson Phan .... stunt actor (uncredited)
James Ralph .... stunts (uncredited)
Chad Sayn .... stunts (uncredited)
Darryl Scheelar .... stunt performer (uncredited)
Larissa Stadnichuk .... utility stunts (uncredited)
John Stoneham Jr. .... stunt performer (uncredited)
Monte Thompson .... stunt performer (uncredited)
Sabine Varnes .... stunt performer (uncredited)
Marshall Virtue .... stunts (uncredited)
Eli Zagoudakis .... stunt performer (uncredited)

Camera and Electrical Department
Jeffery Bjorgum .... video assistant
Dennis Brock .... gaffer
John Clothier .... Steadicam operator
John Clothier .... camera operator: "a" camera
William R. Dalgleish .... additional camera operator (as William Dalgliesh)
Cameron Drinkle .... video playback operator
Clay Enos .... still photographer
Eric Felland .... best boy electric: visual effects
Lee Gibeau .... grip
Ian Guns .... super technocrane operator
Simon Jori .... first assistant camera
Dave Joshi .... digital video assist operator
Mike Kirilenko .... key grip
Ian R.C. Levine .... second assistant camera (as Ian Levine)
Kevin Lheritier .... grip
Paul Matsalla .... lighting technician: rigger
David McKnight .... digital video assist operator: VFX unit
Saubrie Mohamed .... rigging electrics
Jessica Moskal .... first assistant camera
Marc Nolet .... grip
Peter Pacula .... rigging grip
Robert Petrin .... Lev head/Ultimate arm technician
Dean Reca .... grip
Peter Ronan .... lead electrician
James Salberg .... dolly grip: Bill Cam unit
Richard Sinclair .... second assistant camera (as Rich Sinclair)
Trig Singer .... camera operator: "b" camera
Chris Stigter .... best boy rigging electrics
Jason Tidsbury .... light balloon technician
Jerrod Tiffin .... rigging gaffer
Scott Wallace .... video playback operator
Gary J. Williams .... grip
Darin Wong .... dolly grip
Adriene Wyse .... second assistant camera

Animation Department
Stéphane Couture .... lead character animator
Paul A. Davies .... senior character animator
Jason Doss .... animator
Alice V. Kaiserian .... animator
Jason Labbe .... previsualization artist
Keith W. Smith .... lead animator
Grant Wilson .... animator
David Armitage .... animator (uncredited)
Marco Marenghi .... animator (uncredited)

Casting Department
Michelle Allen .... casting: Canada
Andrea Brown .... extras casting
Arlene Kiyabu .... casting associate
Caitlin McKenna-Wilkinson .... adr voice casting
Jennifer Weinstein .... casting assistant

Costume and Wardrobe Department
Ginger Anglin-Cervantes .... costume fabricator (as Ginger Anglin)
Michelle Baines .... wardrobe supervisor
Christine Bieselin Clark .... assistant costume designer (as Christine Bieselin)
Crystine Booth .... costumer
Andre Brouwer .... costumer
Dawn Brown .... costume concept artist
Anne Burke .... costumer
Tiffany Busche .... costumer
Federico Cervantes .... specialty costumer
Tangi Crawford .... wardrobe supervisor
Robert Cron .... costumer
Courtney Daniel .... assistant costume designer
Holly Davis .... costumer
Summer Dietz .... costumer
Denise Gingrich .... key costume ager/dyer
Kathy Houghton .... costumer
Tamaryn Lang .... costumer
Rosalie Lee .... costumer
Jessica Lythgoe-Green .... wardrobe supervisor (as Jessica Lythgoe Green)
Corinne Mameli .... costumer (as Corinne Mamelli)
Ryan Meinerding .... costume illustrator
Niamh Murphy .... costume textile artist
Chris Newlander .... costumer
Susan O'Hara .... wardrobe supervisor
Heather Rupert .... costume textile artist
Hollie Strobl .... textile artist / dyer
Gillian Waterman .... costume shopper
Melissa Woods .... costumer

Editorial Department
Travis J. Andersen .... post-production assistant
Des Carey .... digital intermediate producer
Salvatore Catanzaro .... on-line editor
Caroline Hardon .... assistant editor
Erik Kaufmann .... assistant editor
Sherman Kew .... editorial production assistant
Thom Kyle .... assistant editor
Anna Obropta .... post-production coordinator
Melissa Remenarich .... first assistant editor (as Melissa Remenarich-Aperlo)
Tyler Ruocco .... editorial production assistant
Lee Wimer .... color timer
Ian Turpen .... digital intermediate scanner: Company 3 (uncredited)

Music Department
Nick Baxter .... engineer: ProTools
Gustavo Borner .... music mixer
Ross DeRoche .... supervising music copyist
Darrell Hall .... music editor
Dieter Hartmann .... electronic music programming
Hollywood Film Chorale .... choir
John Lissauer .... music producer/arranger
Wolfgang Matthes .... electronic music programming (as Wolfgang Matthew)
Justin Moshkevich .... engineer: ProTools
Jason Tregoe Newman .... engineer: ProTools (as Jason Tregoe-Newman)
Lisa Papineau .... solo vocals
Andrew Shulman .... musician
Sally Stevens .... vocal contractor
Tim Williams .... composer: additional music
Tim Williams .... conductor
Tim Williams .... orchestration
Gina Zimmitti .... music contractor
Ryan Dodson .... assistant to composer (uncredited)

Transportation Department
Blue Angus .... transportation coordinator
Tim Fortin .... transportation captain
Mark Hoeppner .... unit driver
Paul Irvine .... transportation co-captain
Barrie Poirier .... unit driver
Rick Rasmussen .... picture car coordinator
Tana Tocher .... production driver

Other crew
Tyra Atkins .... staff assistant
Dan Ax .... production assistant
Tommy Bernard .... assistant: Mr. Gains
Ron Blecker .... military advisor
Petina Louise Bradley .... production secretary (as Petina Bradley)
Morgan Brady .... production assistant
Crystal Braunwarth .... assistant to producer
Amanda Bronswyk .... assistant production accountant
Stephanie Brown .... staff assistant
David Cameron .... digital assets manager
Simon Carrigan .... production secretary
Stephen Chan .... staff assistant
Chantal Cholette .... production assistant
Josh Climo .... post production intern
Jason Collier .... assistant location manager
Carl Cunningham .... public relations
Renee D. Czarapata .... production accountant (as Renee Czarapata)
Hans Dayal .... assistant location manager
Hanelize de Beer .... second assistant coordinator
Jitka Dermiskova .... staff assistant
Elyse Dinh .... adr loop group
Heather Douglas .... assistant: director: Vancouver
Kelsey Evans .... key office production assistant
Jona Eyjolfson .... staff assistant
Paul Fenkart .... documentary field producer
Sarah Freudeman .... assistant to writer
Todd Ireland .... trainee assistant location manager
Kimball Jansma .... office production assistant
Linden Johnson .... post accounting
Stephen Kadlec .... staff assistant
Sherman Kew .... staff assistant
Sam Kim .... staff assistant
Carmen Lee .... staff assistant
Michael J. LeGresley .... location scout
Kyle Leydier .... staff assistant
Grant Lutz .... staff assistant
Ann McLaren .... sculptor
Sean Meade .... staff assistant
Eva Morgan .... production office coordinator
Lee Anne Muldoon .... unit publicist
Peter Mulholland .... background wrangler
Nick Ocean .... staff assistant
Derek Peterson .... staff assistant
Sonny Ritscher .... production controller
Tyler Ruocco .... staff assistant
Celeste Schipono-Coller .... assistant to director
Michele Lee Shellenberg .... construction accountant
Steven Slater .... post-production assistant (IMAX version )
Trevor Smith .... assistant: Lawrence Gordon
Adrienne Sol .... assistant production coordinator
Ryan Steacy .... armorer
Jamie Reid Tait .... transport office coordinator
Randy Thomas .... staff assistant
Gladys Tong .... computer and video graphics supervisor
Matt Towstyka .... on-set caterer
John Tsolinas .... staff assistant
Kendrie Upton .... location manager
Chanda Venable .... production assistant
Aaron Walrod .... assistant production accountant
Kimberly Wasson .... production assistant
Kimi Webber .... script supervisor
Rhona Williscroft .... assistant production office coordinator (as Rhonalea Williscroft)
Shayne A. Wilson .... production secretary (as Shayne Wilson)
Janice Yip .... staff assistant
Garson Yu .... title designer and supervisor

[Calmatory]

Bul:banana::banana::banana::banana:t.

What, do you think we who contribute content for you to enjoy do so without spending any time or effort? Do you think that we get degrees and spend years honing our crafts without any cost whatsoever?

Why does it have to be such a nuisance? You're making it sound like you do it just to expect to be paid for it. No one forced you to do so, right? Your choice.


Dude, with all due respect, and it ain't much right now, you don't know what the hell you're talking about!

1) It's none of your business how the money gets divided
2) The artists DO GET PAID FROM SALES



Due to your aggressive attitude, likewise. As far as I am aware of the contracts signed by all of the local bands in my area, none of them get anything from sales. They just get bunch of money from the record labels, and get to record the album at some studio. It's a one-time cake both ways. The band creates the content, and the record label distributes it, and sometimes happens to do some marketing even. It's the live gigs where the money comes from. Sure, they aren't big players, but well-known among those who are into the stuff. Now that you claim you know how it really works, why don't you share your knowledge?



How daft does one have to be to not comprehend that very basic fact???

Let me ask you this: Where does the money come from that pays the key grip? Or the ADR editor? Or the hair stylist?.... Is there a magic pond in Hollywood where money appears for films to be made?...


The money comes from sales, sponsors and investors.



Really? How come it isn't "their job"?

And how do you know which artist has what deal with whom? When you take something without paying for it, do you do research to see if the deal the artist struck with a label or studio was fair? How could you possibly know?

When we who provide content suffer from piracy and intellectual property rights infringement then it IS our job to cope with it. If we don't we can't survive on our labour. Basic damn Capitalism.


Right. It depends on the contract. However, with the kind of contracts I've seen/been partly involved in it's been the way that for an artist/band/content producer the only thing has been to be able to continue with the contract. E.g. produce content which sells enough to be profitable for the record label/distributor. In this sense, it does matter for the artist/content producer. But beyond this, it doesn't. Usually, if a band has once got a contract with a label, it isn't nearly as hard to get a new contract with another label. Obviously, it still requires solid performance on sent demos to convince.

What kind of content do you provide? What makes you invaluable for the end-product?



Do you think people should get paid for the work they do? Or are you in favour of Socialism or Communism?
People should get paid for the work they do, the amount they can generate. In terms of art, the consumer defines the value. NOT the ones who create the art. Obviously, if it was up to consumer to decide, most wouldn't pay a thing thats for sure. However, claiming that "I create something, I deserve to get paid" isn't any better. I'm saying that the artist OR the publisher/distributor isn't the one who is defining it's value to the end user, as different people perceive art differently. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't pay for music I pay for, you wouldn't pay for games I pay for etc.

Art is quite a double-edged sword. On the other hand it is invaluable, and on the other hand it is disposable entertainment. How would you define it's value?



Really, is that the case? Those are the only ones whining? Rubbish. But it just so happens that they're the ones capable of pushing for legislation to be enforced, something that just so happens to concern those who copy illegally. Curious situation...
Do you agree that the small publishers/labels/distributors can benefit from piracy? Or are you having the stance that there's nothing good in it? I hope that you're aware that there are bands and video game companies which put their works on torrent sites just for promotion of their works. They WANT their works to be downloaded illegally, because they can benefit from it financially.




Well that says a lot about you then...
It says that I value other aspects of working much more than money. I agree that I probably represent the minority. As long as my work would keep me afloat, I would be happy with it. I think that if you aren't willing to spend your free time on doing the stuff you do for work, then you're working in the wrong field.

Multi-Quote seems to be broken on Opera 1.62, sorry for that. :p:

[MattiasNYC]

Why does it have to be such a nuisance? You're making it sound like you do it just to expect to be paid for it. No one forced you to do so, right? Your choice.

So when you steal a car from the car salesman you say the same thing? "Why is it a nuisance? No one forced you to sell cars, right? Your choice."

Right? You say the same thing, correct?

Listen, I and others aren't in it to get rich. But what's wrong about getting paid for the work one does?


Due to your aggressive attitude, likewise. As far as I am aware of the contracts signed by all of the local bands in my area, none of them get anything from sales. They just get bunch of money from the record labels, and get to record the album at some studio. It's a one-time cake both ways. The band creates the content, and the record label distributes it, and sometimes happens to do some marketing even. It's the live gigs where the money comes from. Sure, they aren't big players, but well-known among those who are into the stuff. Now that you claim you know how it really works, why don't you share your knowledge?

Yeah, I'll share. I'll start by posing a rhetorical question - heck, even two:

1) Where do you suppose the label gets the money that it gives the bands?
2) Do you really think any investor would keep investing in something that doesn't yield a return?

And now I'll spell it out to you:

Yes, the artist gets paid by the label. The label gets paid by the consumer. No consumer payments = no money to the label = no money to the artist. That should be pretty obvious. Feel free to use the term "investor" instead.

Now, the above surely stands on its own, but I feel the need to point out a logical flaw in your argument:

You are justifying the lack of revenue due to people not paying by people not paying! It's like saying that it doesn't matter that you're vandalizing the neighbors car because the car is so ugly because you vandalized it. See what I'm saying here?

There are a couple of reasons a lot of bands end up being a "one-time cake". The first is that they may have one hit and then that's it, if even that. The other that it's harder to get paid today because people take the music without paying for it. Like I said, it's a self-fulfilling prophesy.


The money comes from sales, sponsors and investors.

Sponsors and investors want a return on their investment from the generated sales. No r.o.i no further investment. It really is that simple in a Capitalist market place.

But the question was really much deeper than what was implied: The list of people that are involved in pieces of art such as movies is HUGE. And everyone of those people deserve to get paid for their work. Who are you to decide that you can take their work without paying for it?


What kind of content do you provide? What makes you invaluable for the end-product?

I'm (my labour) not invaluable for the end product. I provide audio for radio, TV and Film. My labour is valued on the labour market in Capitalist system, right? So whatever price I can charge is what I get. Just for the record; I don't think my work is unique. I think I am good at what I do, possibly above average, but the work I do isn't unique. And the things I work on aren't either. But it's completely besides any valid point.

[MattiasNYC]

People should get paid for the work they do, the amount they can generate. In terms of art, the consumer defines the value. NOT the ones who create the art. Obviously, if it was up to consumer to decide, most wouldn't pay a thing thats for sure. However, claiming that "I create something, I deserve to get paid" isn't any better. I'm saying that the artist OR the publisher/distributor isn't the one who is defining it's value to the end user, as different people perceive art differently. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't pay for music I pay for, you wouldn't pay for games I pay for etc.

And on a Capitalist market WE both have a choice, right? I do not have to pay for the stuff I don't want. What you are doing now is arguing a red herring. It's besides the point.

The point is that we should pay for what we value enough to use.

If you choose to not use a John Coltrane recording, then you shouldn't pay for it.
If you choose to do it, then you should. Because if you do then clearly it has some value, right?

Is that principle really so strange?


Art is quite a double-edged sword. On the other hand it is invaluable, and on the other hand it is disposable entertainment. How would you define it's value?

It's irrelevant how I define it. The whole point is that artists are forced by the state and society to participate in a Capitalist system. Since they are, they are subject to the requirement to make money to pay for food, housing, clothes, health care etc, just like anybody else. BUT, unlike all others, some people feel that laws and rules that apply to everyone else should not apply to this particular group. And there is NO reasoning behind that..... except:

It's easy to "steal" intellectual property (violate copyright) and get away with it.


Do you agree that the small publishers/labels/distributors can benefit from piracy? Or are you having the stance that there's nothing good in it? I hope that you're aware that there are bands and video game companies which put their works on torrent sites just for promotion of their works. They WANT their works to be downloaded illegally, because they can benefit from it financially.

I'm aware that some bands give away their music for free, yes. The key issue there is that it is their choice to do so. It is their right to choose a business model that they believe in and that works for them. But this is a world of a difference from piracy benefitting the industry as a whole.

Please note that nothing I've said so far says that p2p as a technology isn't fantastic, or that artists can't benefit from giving away free things, or that newer forms of distribution are needed, or that copyright protection schemes often completely sucks. Those are completely different issues.


It says that I value other aspects of working much more than money. I agree that I probably represent the minority. As long as my work would keep me afloat, I would be happy with it. I think that if you aren't willing to spend your free time on doing the stuff you do for work, then you're working in the wrong field.

It isn't about liking what one does, it's about a fair society. You want the rules to apply to you at least enough to "keep you afloat", right? You want people to pay whomever pays you so that you can do what you like, yes? Once again, the principle is exactly the same as if it had been any tangible product. The difference is only in practice, in that you can get away with breaking the law when it comes to intellectual property and copyright.

Sorry for the extremely long posts.....

[kgk]

So when you steal a car from the car salesman you say the same thing? "Why is it a nuisance? No one forced you to sell cars, right? Your choice."

Right? You say the same thing, correct?

Listen, I and others aren't in it to get rich. But what's wrong about getting paid for the work one does?

All bickering between you two aside, did you seriously just trot out the "you wouldn't download a car" argument? :rofl:

Copying digital data and stealing a car from a dealership are not the same thing.

[Agent11]

That right there is why more draconian action is going to be coming down the pike.

I remember installing games off of floppy onto my computer from my friends disks when I was in high school. . . Did I think of it as stealing? Hell no.

Now, when you have so much content of every type imaginable available free for the taking. . . You have to recognize that there is a problem.

You can rationalize it all you want, but there is a problem with some serious dollar signs attached to it and eventually the people with the power and the money are going to crack down.

Compared to a few years ago what is your estimation of the file sharing scene? I think the gears are already in motion.

[kgk]

You can rationalize it all you want, but there is a problem with some serious dollar signs attached to it and eventually the people with the power and the money are going to crack down.


Are going to?

They have been, for years. And all it has accomplished is to make the pirated copies more appealing than the retail copies because they don't install mountains of malware onto your computer and let you play without having to be connected to the internet 24/7.

The more draconian ones have been tried, and failed even worse than the current ones. Or do you not remember the various companies issuing patches to their titles that removed some of the "always on" demands after massive consumer backlash?

They want to see greater success and consumer loyalty? Charge a fair price, don't nickle and dime with pathetic "DLC" and make actual expansion packs or actual sequels, allow modding and map making, and don't install mountains of malware just so the customer can be allowed the graced privilege of playing your title despite already having forked over $60. Path of least resistance always works better and they already have a good distribution platform with Steam.

[MattiasNYC]

All bickering between you two aside, did you seriously just trot out the "you wouldn't download a car" argument? :rofl:

Did you even read my posts?


Copying digital data and stealing a car from a dealership are not the same thing.

That's right. But let's for a second try to dispel of the pre-teen quips shall we?:

1) When you steal a car from a car dealership the risk of you getting caught and punished is way higher. That's a big reason why people do it. Because they can get away with it. This is one of the two relevant differences.

2) You don't know what the costs are and how assets flow in a production of a piece of copyrighted intellectual property. You don't know if the movie you're downloading (illegally I'm talking about) has recouped its costs yet. You don't know if everyone got paid. You don't know how the money was distributed. Go back and look at the list I wrote out above.

3) Who are you to decide who should get paid for the work that they do that you use?


The only reason the car analogy is annoying is because it's clear and true. The objection that the car is a physical object whereas the information copied/pirated is not is irrelevant.

Like I said: You either support a Capitalist system with its market, or you don't. If you do, and if you think everyone should be subject to it, then you're a hypocrite if you then go ahead and violate the very rules you think everyone else should be bound by. Go back and re-read my posts and the argument should be clear. Simply deriding "the car analogy" without any supporting reasoning is juvenile. The problem we're discussing isn't.

[MattiasNYC]

That right there is why more draconian action is going to be coming down the pike.

I remember installing games off of floppy onto my computer from my friends disks when I was in high school. . . Did I think of it as stealing? Hell no.

Now, when you have so much content of every type imaginable available free for the taking. . . You have to recognize that there is a problem.

You can rationalize it all you want, but there is a problem with some serious dollar signs attached to it and eventually the people with the power and the money are going to crack down.

When I copied computer games as a kid I didn't see it as stealing either. Of course, at that point I was very young and simply didn't have the intellectual faculties to comprehend it. In addition, I wasn't working in the entertainment field and didn't rely on copyrights to put food on the table and a roof over my head.

The word "stealing" is likely correctly described as "the wrong word" and perhaps the phrase should simply be "infringing copyrights" - BUT - the fundamental problem remains the same and the term "stealing" is a better description of the severity of the problem despite being somewhat inaccurate.

[MattiasNYC]

Are going to?

They have been, for years. And all it has accomplished is to make the pirated copies more appealing than the retail copies because they don't install mountains of malware onto your computer and let you play without having to be connected to the internet 24/7.

The more draconian ones have been tried, and failed even worse than the current ones. Or do you not remember the various companies issuing patches to their titles that removed some of the "always on" demands after massive consumer backlash?

I agree that copyright protections etc are extremely annoying. I don't like them at all. But consider the reason for them and what you are essentially (seemingly) arguing however:

Copyright infringement is ok because the copyright protection schemes are so appaling.

But if nobody infringed said copyrights, would there still be a need for these draconian protections?

So what would have been the better approach here? To endorse and engage in the infringement of copyrights that led to the protections, or to not do that and to try to influence others not to?


They want to see greater success and consumer loyalty? Charge a fair price, don't nickle and dime with pathetic "DLC" and make actual expansion packs or actual sequels, allow modding and map making,

In a capitalist market place you (supposedly) have a choice, right? If the product offered to you isn't worth X dollars you have a choice not to buy it, correct? That's the basic principle of the market place. You and the seller try to come to an agreement on price. Supply and demand.

What you are arguing now is that for SOME products you want this principle to cease to exist. Instead of you simply not buying a product, you want to get the product without paying for it. Your reason is that it's worth less than what you would have paid, so you pay nothing but take it anyways.

The reason a car analogy is apt is because it makes it clear how the above principle is not only flawed but arguably quite immoral:

"Well you see judge; I took the car without paying because it wasn't worth 35,000. I think it was worth maybe half of that, so instead of paying the full price I just took it without paying, because he wouldn't lower the price."

Makes sense to you?

Judge: "You know that's against the law right?"
You: "Well, he makes enough money anyways, and I consider this to be a victim-less crime, so..."

Does it fly?....


Path of least resistance always works better and they already have a good distribution platform with Steam.

I agree that things could and should change. There are certainly other models that are more contemporary and better in most respects, but it clearly doesn't justify taking stuff without paying while supporting the capitalist market...

[kgk]

Copyright infringement is ok because the copyright protection schemes are so appaling.

Excuse me? Nowhere did I advocate piracy or theft. I even stated as much. If you want to draw a strawman you go right ahead and argue with yourself then.

I simply stated why piracy is such an attractive option to so many people. I made no mention of advocating it or that it was the proper response, I simply stated the reasons for why I believe it exists and is becoming more popular.


In a capitalist market place you (supposedly) have a choice, right? If the product offered to you isn't worth X dollars you have a choice not to buy it, correct?

And I exercise that choice constantly by not purchasing sh*tty titles. I don't pirate them either.


What you are arguing now is that for SOME products you want this principle to cease to exist. Instead of you simply not buying a product, you want to get the product without paying for it. Your reason is that it's worth less than what you would have paid, so you pay nothing but take it anyways.

Stop putting words in my mouth. All I did was point out why piracy is an attractive option to many. I did not justify it, I did not advocate it, and I resent the implication. Take your righteous attitude somewhere else. Pointing out why something is the way it is doesn't make me the offender. You enjoy shooting messengers, go right ahead.


The reason a car analogy is apt is because it makes it clear how the above principle is not only flawed but arguably quite immoral:

"Well you see judge; I took the car without paying because it wasn't worth 35,000. I think it was worth maybe half of that, so instead of paying the full price I just took it without paying, because he wouldn't lower the price."



The only reason the car analogy is annoying is because it's clear and true. The objection that the car is a physical object whereas the information copied/pirated is not is irrelevant.

It's a ridiculous analogy because one is a tangible object whereby money is required to reproduce the product if you want to sell it to the next potential buyer. That makes it entirely relevant. Copying a song doesn't magically make the original disappear and force the songwriter to write an entirely new song in place of it. A more apt analogy would be taking a high resolution photo of a painting in a museum, printing it yourself and framing it.



I agree that things could and should change. There are certainly other models that are more contemporary and better in most respects, but it clearly doesn't justify taking stuff without paying while supporting the capitalist market...

And yet again, I. Do. Not. Advocate. Piracy. Should I repeat it again?

[Sparky]

I can think of many other things that they can do other than throw more regulations around that would be much more helpful for the economy :shakes:

While I don't agree with piracy either, there are bigger fish to fry when it comes to economic recovery.

[MattiasNYC]

Excuse me? Nowhere did I advocate piracy or theft. I even stated as much. If you want to draw a strawman you go right ahead and argue with yourself then.

I wrote "(seemingly) arguing".

I wasn't particularly clear in that I am essentially arguing this on a general basis, not a personal one, even if it clearly came off that way. So my apologies if I offended you by the tone of my post. That wasn't my intention.


It's a ridiculous analogy because one is a tangible object whereby money is required to reproduce the product if you want to sell it to the next potential buyer. That makes it entirely relevant. Copying a song doesn't magically make the original disappear and force the songwriter to write an entirely new song in place of it. A more apt analogy would be taking a high resolution photo of a painting in a museum, printing it yourself and framing it.

Well I completely disagree with your conclusion.

Yes, obviously the "original remains" in the case of piracy whereas it is "removed" in the case of stealing a car. You can't sell a tangible item that was stolen from you (more or less true), as opposed to pirated media. This is obviously true.

However, what I stated was that the analogy was appropriate as far as it pertained to "the above principle", a principle being: 'because I think the item isn't worth what the seller wants for it I'll just take it without paying'. That argument/analogy is completely different from the one you're making above. It's a different comparison from a slightly different "perspective".

In other words, if you compare two situations, and there are several ways of doing so, any comparison doesn't falter just because one is inaccurate. See what I mean? In this case:

1) If we assume for a second that the collective act of not paying for content has an effect on the industry, then it is in principle right to say that the industry is "suffering" from piracy/copyright infringement. With that in mind the other comparison I made is relevant: If the argument from those "guilty" of this crime is that "No one forced you to sell DVDs" then that transfers over to stealing a car from a sales person.

The fundamental principle of the argument is:

"If you try to sell something that people take without paying for (in violation of legislation), and you're having a hard time making a living off of it (or are impacted negatively), then you should change your priorities rather than the people 'stealing' following the law".

2) The argument that, from the "takers" perspective, a product that isn't worth what the seller asks for it justifies taking it without paying at all.



Also - for the record that there are instances where I find copyright infringement morally acceptable. Suppose you have a product that isn't performing as advertised and there's no way you can get it to without paying more, then an "illegal" version that works is moral to use I think. However, people who make this argument should note that there is nothing preventing one to use a "crack" (for example) while simultaneously owning the legal version of the product.

Lastly, once again I'm sorry for offending you if I did, that wasn't my intention.

[Arkangyl]

Two points:

1) A few good friends of mine were in a band that Sony wanted to sign, the terms were: they take out a loan to PAY SONY $300,000, in chance for Sony promoting and distributing their work. They (the band) would get about $1 for every CD they sold and about $10,000 for every concert they performed at, with the contract stating that they'd get setup as a headline and get maybe 12-15 shows the first year at that rate. Clearly this varies based on how desired said artist is (these guys were good but hadn't really made a name for themselves at all), however every viable things I've heard and read states that artists get some amount of money from album sales ($1-3 per album seems the norm)

2) To the car thing.... Yes, no one is getting hurt by IP theft, whereas with the car a tangible good is being lost. However the BS part of the argument is stating 'the market will dictate the value' and then turning around and just taking it because 'I value it as $0.00'. If you don't value something, don't take it / use it. If you do value it, or use it in ANY capacity, then by definition is has some value to you.


The biggest issue with pricing (and I'm pretty sure this is a dead horse), media just costs waaaay too much these days. $5-8 for a CD, digital distribution, allow me to use it wherever: done.


An interesting experiment might be: offer up a CD for $5 with DRM (like iTunes, needs to stay 'on the reservation') and also offer it for $10 with no DRM, see what people actually value it at.

[Xoulz]

somebody has to protect the big multi-billionaire companies, haven't you heard of the trickle-down effect?
Big houses of producers for both movies and music make millions, somebody has to protect their profits,

Theory has is that if all these companies shifter from an analog (physical) supply of a product to a digital one (ie steam) then cost of supply would immensely decrease, and therefore drive prices down.

In doing so companies would supply higher quantities, piracy mainly exists because the personal benefit from acquiring a good is so small compared to the expenditure in acquiring it that people resort to copy. Remember most of these people would not acquire the product (DVD movie, Music CD) otherwise.

Furthermore, what happens when you buy a Game DVD, a music CD, of a movie ... and the DISK/DVD/Blu-ray scratches or breaks?

you still did buy the intellectual property right to listen to it, so what happens then? do you get another DVD/CD given for free? NO.

If you purchase intellectual property, you should be able to access it even if you lose it due to accident (hence why steam is so convenient, once you purchase a game you can download it into any machine you utilize so long its only used under your own account)

The archaic system of copyright for music is based on the LP market (vinyl records)

The market has changed, the variables are different, however big companies do not want to give up one critical item... control.

If I know I can buy a movie online (recently released blockbuster) for $3-4, why would I bother to get it from an illegal source? this is where the big companies are failing to see. Also most people only watch a movie once, so there should be another thought for companies.

Its not like in the old days where individuals loved to stack up the amount of movies they had on VHS, the movie market is so vast nowadays that people usually watch a movie once (or twice) and then forget about it.

However for secluded markets where internet speeds are slow or non existent this could not be the case, however you get the double effect that you don't get internet piracy in such segments.

You can buy a movie for $3 bucks, pay per view.

[cobra_kai]

You can buy a movie for $3 bucks, pay per view.

There are numerous options where a movie can be viewed for very little money legally. Redbox offers one day rentals for a dollar. Netflix is another excellent option. For 10 dollars a month I can have one physical copy of a movie out at a time plus stream an unlimited quantity of movies and shows. This is all in addition to any other online sources that let you stream content for free such as hulu and network sites themselves. I am sure that this trend towards low cost streaming will continue, and is the reason that a place like Blockbuster is now bankrupt. The industry (at least the movie/tv industry) is slowly coming around to a more reasonable distribution model. I am not sure I can say the same for the music industry, but sites like pandora are a start.

[Xoulz]

Did you even read my posts?



That's right. But let's for a second try to dispel of the pre-teen quips shall we?:

1) When you steal a car from a car dealership the risk of you getting caught and punished is way higher. That's a big reason why people do it. Because they can get away with it. This is one of the two relevant differences.

2) You don't know what the costs are and how assets flow in a production of a piece of copyrighted intellectual property. You don't know if the movie you're downloading (illegally I'm talking about) has recouped its costs yet. You don't know if everyone got paid. You don't know how the money was distributed. Go back and look at the list I wrote out above.

3) Who are you to decide who should get paid for the work that they do that you use?


The only reason the car analogy is annoying is because it's clear and true. The objection that the car is a physical object whereas the information copied/pirated is not is irrelevant.

Like I said: You either support a Capitalist system with its market, or you don't. If you do, and if you think everyone should be subject to it, then you're a hypocrite if you then go ahead and violate the very rules you think everyone else should be bound by. Go back and re-read my posts and the argument should be clear. Simply deriding "the car analogy" without any supporting reasoning is juvenile. The problem we're discussing isn't.



I listen to music daily, that I never buy, ... on the radio.

[MattiasNYC]

I listen to music daily, that I never buy, ... on the radio.

So?

[Craftyman.]

I'll play devil's advocate here: Say I like a certain band's song so much that I do a cover of it which sounds close to the original. I then give this song away for free. Is that stealing? I have created my own content and decided to give it away but it sounds just like the other band's song.

[zanzabar]

I'll play devil's advocate here: Say I like a certain band's song so much that I do a cover of it which sounds close to the original. I then give this song away for free. Is that stealing? I have created my own content and decided to give it away but it sounds just like the other band's song.

there is a time u have to wait to do a cover (its 5 or 10 years)

[MattiasNYC]

I'll play devil's advocate here: Say I like a certain band's song so much that I do a cover of it which sounds close to the original. I then give this song away for free. Is that stealing? I have created my own content and decided to give it away but it sounds just like the other band's song.

It depends on what you do other than sell it.

Typically, in the past, a recording you bought would contain different rights. There's the right to the composition, and then there's the right to the performance (recording). Those two aren't the same thing.

So, if you do a cover of a song and sell it, then you are (correct me if I'm wrong here) obliged to compensate the owner of the song for duplicating that work.

If your recording of the song, your "cover", sounds "just like the other band's song" then you are most likely infringing upon the rights of whomever owns the right to that other band's recording.

Like I said before, the term "stealing" is appropriate in spirit and perhaps not if interpreted literally.

Perhaps an analogy would be that you come up with an invention, a new technology. Let's call it a gamma-ray-engine. You get a patent on it. I buy a product, an engine that's based on this, called a "GRE1" made by BMW. Then I reverse engineer it, build my own and start selling it. I even call it "GRE1" and put a BMW logo on it.

Is that stealing?

Granted, I've created something unique in the sense that it is a tangible object. Nobody else created it but me. But it is based on the labour of others. It's based on your invention and the branding/design etc of BMW.

To make this "right", I'd likely have to pay you "royalties" for the use of the technology, and get permission by BMW to use their trademarks and designs. If BMW won't cooperate then I'd have to change the way it looks etc.

[god_43]

So?

lol remember when radio was considered piracy? "piracy" for me is more about voicing my own opinion, prices are too high, i dont like how the company is managing the product (SC2?), or i am just not able to buy the product (certain tv shows are not out on dvd, but ppl have made tv rips of them). whats pissing me off these days is that corporations are pissing all over consumers and getting away with it. the fleecing of America continues.

[FischOderAal]

As usual the Socialists / Communists are out marching in force in these threads.

You know, this sentence was I all needed to know what kind of guy you are.

[MattiasNYC]

You know, this sentence was I all needed to know what kind of guy you are.

Bet you know virtually nothing about me. But what the heck, I'll bite:

What kind of person do you think I am, and why do you think I wrote what you quoted?

[Xoulz]

So?

So?

Doesn't that nix you're whole rebuttal?

[MattiasNYC]

So?

Doesn't that nix you're whole rebuttal?

Not really. When a piece of music is performed on radio, people are still getting paid, even though you aren't paying for it directly. This is true for those owning the composition (publishing) and for some of those who performed (depending on the medium). And to recoup that money you'll endure advertising on the radio.

Ironically, a solution to the problem with copyright infringement is offering the consumer complete access to "all" music at any time regardless of platform, but then charge a blanket fee, or a fee that increases with bandwidth usage.

This could be tacked on to the service plans of ISP's for example.

Once this lump sum is collected it can be distributed to all artists according to # of downloads/streams. This is similar to what is happening with Spotify in Europe if I'm not mistaken.

[FischOderAal]

What kind of person do you think I am, and why do you think I wrote what you quoted?

You're probably voting for the republicans and you believe that 100 percent capitalism will solve everything and bring world peace...

Well, of course I don't really know you, but from that sentence on I knew that you would keep blabbering about "copyright infringement is stealing" and all that crap.

I do agree that copyright infringement is a very big problem but criminalizing most of your population and worst of all, your potential buyers, is the worst thing to do.

What the industry needs to do is convince people to buy their stuff. Only use the finger and say "you must not" doesn't work, it never has!

How can they do that? Well, first of all they have to stop making the pirated version the version of the higher quality. When you buy a DVD there are so many advertisings and warnings before the movie even starts...

Secondly, give extras for those who buy your stuff, maybe online or something like that.

I think the smart guys in the company can find hundreds of other ways to do that.

And this is coming from someone who bought about one CD per month for the past eight years. When I still went to school that was about one / third of the money I had to spent per month. And I'm not counting all the computer games I bought as well...

The thing I barely spend money on is movies. I don't see the value in paying 15 Euros for a DVD/Blu-Ray for a movie you're only going to see twice... But I really do like going to the cinema

[Agent11]

Are going to?

They have been, for years. And all it has accomplished is to make the pirated copies more appealing than the retail copies because they don't install mountains of malware onto your computer and let you play without having to be connected to the internet 24/7.

The more draconian ones have been tried, and failed even worse than the current ones. Or do you not remember the various companies issuing patches to their titles that removed some of the "always on" demands after massive consumer backlash?

They want to see greater success and consumer loyalty? Charge a fair price, don't nickle and dime with pathetic "DLC" and make actual expansion packs or actual sequels, allow modding and map making, and don't install mountains of malware just so the customer can be allowed the graced privilege of playing your title despite already having forked over $60. Path of least resistance always works better and they already have a good distribution platform with Steam.


:lol:

That isn't my definition of draconian, that is desperate misguided BS.

When you see the state prosecuting people, subpoenaing isp records and generally kicking ass THAT is draconian action.

[zanzabar]

:lol:

That isn't my definition of draconian, that is desperate misguided BS.

When you see the state prosecuting people, subpoenaing isp records and generally kicking ass THAT is draconian action.

what about starforce, ive had doom3 kill 5 dvd burners by writing to the firmware making the drive get stuck in PIO mode.

[Serra]

First I was going to move this thread.

Then I saw how many post needed deleting.

Then I realized that we've seen this same song and dance a hundred times already in other threads.

/thread


Edit: The Post of the Week goes to MattiasNYC for making the largest post devoid of any useful information (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4581305&postcount=57) I have ever seen. Seriously, in as long as I've been here I have never seen such an elaboration on what could have been summarized for better effect in 3 characters (eg. just writing down the number of people who were involved, not copy/pasting their full names, jobs, assistants and locations from IMDB).