Home Audio Install service?

[Titus]

anyone in the NYC area an expert in Home Audio installations...I bought my first dedicated 5.1 speaker setup plus receiver and I'm not sure about the entire install, setup, tweaking process to get them sounding their best...it's nothing extravagent or anything but I just want to make sure everything is done correctly...anyone willing to install and give me a quick refresher course on how to use everything...please be a real expert...willing to pay for your time

[Nanometer]

awww come on let's do some more DIY stuff. It's easy, read the manual on the receiver and it wont take long at all, I assure you it's worth while to know how your equipment works!

[STEvil]

speaker connections are probably color coded.

To "tune" those setups (I never bother doing this as they're too poor quality to bother doing) you hook up the external microphone, put it at the listening location, and hit the demo button or play some suggested content.. basically.

Really nothing hard to do.

[Titus]

I'm sure it is pretty simple but it would be nice to make sure that everything is optimized correctlty for my room etc and I'm getting the optimal sound...this is my first go at 'real' home audio so I want to get it right...I plan on learning while watching (and asking questions) so I don't have to rely on anyone again

same way I learned to build my own PC's...no Xtreme members want to earn some easy $$ while helping a guy out? :)

in case anyone's interested here are the speakers I bought...

Aperion Intimus 5T Tower (front x 2)
http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Intimus-5T-Tower-Speaker,107,28,248.aspx

Aperion 5C Center Channel
http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Intimus-5C-Center-Channel-Speaker,109,29,253.aspx

Aperion Intimus 4BP Bipole Surround (rear x 2)
http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Intimus-4BP-Bipole-Surround-Speaker,226,30,704.aspx

Denon AVR-791 receiver
http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/5308.asp

[MattiasNYC]

I'd do it but I'm leaving for Europe for a couple of weeks on Wednesday and I don't really think I have time before then. But it really shouldn't be that hard. Just set up the speakers properly and then check the Denon manual for how to test the speakers/room.

No subwoofer?

[Hell Hound]

Pay for plane ticket and I'll do it.First you need to measure the room,then set speakers accordingly.Your receiver might have adjustments for diff distance settings.There is really more to it than most think,but easy to learn.:up:

[Titus]

No subwoofer?

no subwoofer because I live in an apartment and don't want to take any chances on disturbing the neighbors


Your receiver might have adjustments for diff distance settings.There is really more to it than most think,but easy to learn.:up:

yup it takes a bit of tweaking and is not as simple as wiring everything and turning it on, depending on room dimensions, speaker placement etc

[Serra]

I'm not sure about Denon, but Onkyo actually includes a microphone with their nicer receivers and I would suspect that Denon does as well. The operation is pretty simple too, just walk the microphone to where you will be sitting the most often and start the calibration program. Typically those play a high, low, and maybe mid tone from each speaker then adjusts the output volume of each speaker accordingly.

As far as speaker placement goes, it's as much an art as a science. You can really go out of your way to measure for dead zones and such with expensive equipment, but the fact is that for an area the size of a house that's just overkill. Speaker placement should be logical and an attempt should be made to ensure that, for example, the left and right speakers are equidistant from the center, but otherwise there is no real measurement for exactly what angle they are to be at or anything.

The only other thing I can really think to have to 'tune' relates to the actual sounds that come out of the speakers, but TBH there isn't really a lot of 'tuning' that occurs. Every speaker design sounds a bit different - not wrong, just different - and it just comes down to what you like. Your receiver should have a number of pre-sets that come with it, I would just scroll through that for different media types until you decide what you personally prefer.


Edit: Looks like a microphone is included. Point #3 on the link you posted for your receiver:

Easy Setup With Automatic Room Acoustic Correction
Audyssey MultEQ dynamic room acoustic correction system features a microphone (included) to automatically measure the speaker configuration and provide acoustic tailoring for the best surround sound experience. Dynamic Volume helps eliminate jarring volume jumps during commercials, and Dynamic EQ provides a rich tonal balance at any volume level.

Honestly, anyone who came over to set it up for you would basically connect to the color-coded speaker inputs then run the automatic test, collect some money, and leave. There really isn't a lot else to say.

[MattiasNYC]

no subwoofer because I live in an apartment and don't want to take any chances on disturbing the neighbors

That's understandable. How are you going to solve the bass management and LFE channel though? Bass management will route low end from the 5 speakers to the sub and add that to the discrete LFE channel. If you turn it off, the 5 speakers should get the full range signal, but what happens to the LFE?

Any mix that contains an LFE specific sound would not play back properly unless the LFE then is routed automatically to the other speakers (perhaps the Denon does that).


yup it takes a bit of tweaking and is not as simple as wiring everything and turning it on, depending on room dimensions, speaker placement etc

If my hunch is correct, the measuring using the microphone is similar to the concept used in pro-studios. Basically you just hook everything up, place the speakers where they should be and then sit yourself down in the listening position with the microphone and run the tuning program. It probably plays back white noise or sine waves (or sine wave sweeps) speaker by speaker, and then uses the measurements to do DSP before the audio is played out the speakers.

Honestly, probably not that difficult.

The one thing I'd recommend is to deaden the room as much as possible. Big soft couches and pillows, perhaps thick curtains, diffusing stuff wherever the first reflections occur along the walls (have a friend hold a mirror flush to the wall while you're sitting in the listening position. He then walks around the wall and whenever you see a speaker in the mirror you want to put material to either absorb and/or diffuse (change direction) of the sound)......

[Titus]

The only other thing I can really think to have to 'tune' relates to the actual sounds that come out of the speakers, but TBH there isn't really a lot of 'tuning' that occurs. Every speaker design sounds a bit different - not wrong, just different - and it just comes down to what you like. Your receiver should have a number of pre-sets that come with it, I would just scroll through that for different media types until you decide what you personally prefer.

I thought that each individual speaker/subwoofer needed to be tweaked in terms of the frequency etc to get the optimal sound?...same principal as when building a computer, yes you can just hook everything up and leave all the settings at 'default' and the computer would work fine but after tweaking the video card settings, Windows options, software etc everything works a lot better...presets are OK but to really get the most out of anything (speakers, HDTV, computer etc) it involves changing the defaults and fine tuning everything


That's understandable. How are you going to solve the bass management and LFE channel though? Bass management will route low end from the 5 speakers to the sub and add that to the discrete LFE channel. If you turn it off, the 5 speakers should get the full range signal, but what happens to the LFE?

Any mix that contains an LFE specific sound would not play back properly unless the LFE then is routed automatically to the other speakers (perhaps the Denon does that).

I'm not an expert on this but I assume the LFE would get re-routed to the speakers...no it won't sound the same as having a dedicated LFE but I'm sure it will be OK...same as if you get 2 front speakers and a center but leave out the rear speakers...the audio will get re-routed to the fronts/center to create a 'virtual' soundstage

I would actually prefer a lack of bass due to my apartment setting...bass + apartment don't usually mix well :) ...when I move into a house I can always go all out with a sub but for now I have to be more careful...I used to have a 400 watt Klipsch computer speakers and the bass on that would cause my next door neighbor to complain

anyone have any experience with Aperion speakers?...they seem to get great reviews plus they offer a free 30 day in-home trial where if I'm not satisfied I can return the speakers and they will even pay for the return shipping...also is the Denon receiver I bought at 90 watts per channel good enough or should I have gotten something more powerful?

[MattiasNYC]

I thought that each individual speaker/subwoofer needed to be tweaked in terms of the frequency etc to get the optimal sound?...same principal as when building a computer, yes you can just hook everything up and leave all the settings at 'default' and the computer would work fine but after tweaking the video card settings, Windows options, software etc everything works a lot better...presets are OK but to really get the most out of anything (speakers, HDTV, computer etc) it involves changing the defaults and fine tuning everything

I'm thinking you guys are talking about slightly different things.

As I said, I think what the technology you get is doing is basically sending out a signal over a wide frequency range, either a sine wave sweep or white noise. Since the software knows what it's sending out it can then compare that to what is recorded. The difference in the frequency response comes from interactions with the room, you know soft/hard surfaces, angles etc. So then through DSP the system can adjust for those "deficiencies". If you have a dip at 450 Hz by 4dB, the system can boost the signal for that speaker at that frequency by the same amount.

At least that's how the systems in pro-studios work as far as I know.


I'm not an expert on this but I assume the LFE would get re-routed to the speakers...no it won't sound the same as having a dedicated LFE but I'm sure it will be OK...same as if you get 2 front speakers and a center but leave out the rear speakers...the audio will get re-routed to the fronts/center to create a 'virtual' soundstage

I would check the manual though to make sure that's the case. Only reason I'm saying that is because some films will route signals to the LFE only. Remember, the LFE is NOT the same thing as a "subwoofer channel". The LFE is for dedicated low-end sounds. It gets summed with anything that gets cut out of all the other speakers and sent to the sub.

So what you could do if you had a sub is set everything up correctly, and if there's too much low end just lower the level of the sub.

On the other hand I understand your concern. Bass in apartments is a problem. You know your situation the best of course.

[PaganII]

REW - Room EQ Wizard :) :http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
REW forum http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/
Home Theater Shack http://www.hometheatershack.com/

[Hell Hound]

Some receivers reroute the lfe my panasonic has a 6 channel mode.:yepp:

[Nanometer]

For home theater use the sub channel is independent of the others. So changing crossovers only adds additional signal, or in some cases, just deletes the low pass frequencies by use of a lpf. Should you choose not to have a sub then you maybe want to consider running them on full range.

[Hell Hound]

In six channel mode the low end sound is sent to all speaker's.:up:(full range)
I believe my receiver is capping the low end when in this mode.:shocked:(great feature)

[Serra]

I thought that each individual speaker/subwoofer needed to be tweaked in terms of the frequency etc to get the optimal sound?...same principal as when building a computer, yes you can just hook everything up and leave all the settings at 'default' and the computer would work fine but after tweaking the video card settings, Windows options, software etc everything works a lot better...presets are OK but to really get the most out of anything (speakers, HDTV, computer etc) it involves changing the defaults and fine tuning everything

Well you can't really tweak a speaker to change frequency, at least not without significant work and/or equipment... to the point where you'd just buy a better speaker. Frequency relates to how often a speakers cones move back and forth; ideally this is in tune with what your receiver is sending it. If it is noticeable that with equal cabling distances one speaker is off from the others you really just have a defective speaker. As you can imagine you can't really change the response time of a speaker in your receiver, that would be something electro/mechanical in your speaker. If the speaker was outputting a bit late, for example, you could theoretically send the signal a bit later... but all your speakers are the same make/model so that really shouldn't be a concern. Plus, really, if one was 0.05% off or something I can't imagine you could really hear the difference.

So with that said, obviously you're not tuning your actual speakers and thus the 'tune everything' argument is defeated.


Now obviously you could have your receiver play with frequencies that it sends to the speakers, and this is certainly something you can do and is what most people are talking about when they really want to discuss tuning. But here's the thing of it: there is no "right" answer. And what is "right" for you will probably even change depending on what you're watching - eg. I watch movies with different sound profiles than TV, and some people will play with it all the way down to the genre of entertainment. But you really can't simply sit down for ten minutes and tune it because it is so subjective. Typically the best thing to do is to listen to your speakers for awhile and find out how they sound with the various presets in your receiver. Over a long period of time you will finely tune them to what you personally prefer to hear them doing.


Mostly from what I have seen those auto programs listen and adjust the signal output of the receiver to ensure that you're not creating a dead zone at the microphone position. It's not changing the frequency output, it's changing the phase and timing of the electrical signal going to each speaker to compensate for position/reflection and cable length so that the waves produced by the speakers aren't cancelling one another at your reference point.

[Donnie27]

Mostly from what I have seen those auto programs listen and adjust the signal output of the receiver to ensure that you're not creating a dead zone at the microphone position. It's not changing the frequency output, it's changing the phase and timing of the electrical signal going to each speaker to compensate for position/reflection and cable length so that the waves produced by the speakers aren't cancelling one another at your reference point.

All 3 of the last 7.1 Receivers I've used shipped with Auto Setup system with MICs not only adjusted for dead spots but they adjusted; the Volume, Tone, Delay, Distance and most other tweaks each receiver supported.

These were last gen Harmon Kardon 247, Yamaha 465 and Pioneer 819. Each did a great just no matter where I set them up. The latest models not only work better but perform the task in 1/3rd the time. The only thing any of them asked is to place the MIC at the center of the seating position/s and at Ear level.

Subwoofer and LFE and Low Frequency Effects entail more than just the low as was mentioned earlier. The key part of the LFE is the E part or Effects. First, most movies follow a set Standard and that's normally but not exclusively THX. I said frequency is important because without an understanding of it you can't set up the system correctly IMHO! First the THX Speaker setup placement wise
THX Bass Redirection Crossover to insure proper LFE
Auto Setup and final minor touch up settings. Just for starters.

Done right, these can * mostly over come non-optimal Room Conditions and etc...
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-speakers/766-rear-speaker-placement.html

Post #4 is correct and post #7 is Full of s#it. The difference between 7.1 and 6.1 is that the 6.1 features One Rear Center Channel speaker and 7.1 features two additional surround speakers at 135 to 150 degrees the are NOT Mono. These are interpolated to approximated not only discrete sounds from each speaker location, but points in between (that's what Interpolation means) the two rear and two side speakers. These can create as many as 24 positions in between the speakers. It is easier for two speakers to blend than for one to do it. Evenly spaced not right next to eachother as #7:rofl:

Note; Advanced setup (with the Mic) on the latest systems can overcome such non-sense instructions from post #7 above!:rolleyes:

The only time the Surround speakers are moved to the rear is when using Creative sound card solutions and Direct/Analog Input settings on the receiver. The placement is 120 to 135 degrees behind the listener. These then use the Aureal 3D tech to interpolate 16 to 24 positions horizontally and a few vertically (elevation) cues.

It would take up too much space to explain everything.

Surround Left & Right Speakers (SL & SR): Place the SL & SR speakers between 90° to 110° to each side and 2 feet or higher above the listener. The SL & SR speakers recreate the enveloping sound and intense special effects that you experience in the cinema.

[Hell Hound]

Some receiver's will let you set hertz for each channel.:up:

[Serra]

All 3 of the last 7.1 Receivers I've used shipped with Auto Setup system with MICs not only adjusted for dead spots but they adjusted; the Volume, Tone, Delay, Distance and most other tweaks each receiver supported.

These were last gen Harmon Kardon 247, Yamaha 465 and Pioneer 819. Each did a great just no matter where I set them up. The latest models not only work better but perform the task in 1/3rd the time. The only thing any of them asked is to place the MIC at the center of the seating position/s and at Ear level.

I will agree with the volume, I did neglect to add that. I work it in as compensating for distance and reflection, but it should be specifically stated.

Tone though. I have heard that used in marketing talk about a receiver before, but (and this was back a bit), from what I recall that was largely snake oil. The tone of various speakers will always be different, and it's really about impossible to correct as it's nearly impossible to define in the first place. It's not pitch and it's not volume, it's additional "waste" noise that allows one to discern between sources which are otherwise identical (eg. playing the same note on two different instruments at the same volume you can still identify each source as being a different instrument). I mean, how do you adjust for that? How do you adjust your speaker such that your tuba sounds more like a tuba and your claranet more like a claranet, and your cello more like a cello? You really can't. Worse, the fact of the matter is that these programs are typically run through a pinpoint microphone, and let's face it that's really not a top-quality mic, further making it next to impossible.

I could see a receiver attempting to better define where the center of a note is and I could see people marketing that as tone, but I think that's actually a bit different than a tone really is per se. And even then, really, I think that just tries to distort what your speakers are designed to output via the input of a pinpoint microphone and don't really see that as being a positive thing to do for the most part. Mileage may, of course, vary because it is in the end all a highly subjective thing.

[Donnie27]

I will agree with the volume, I did neglect to add that. I work it in as compensating for distance and reflection, but it should be specifically stated.

Tone though. I have heard that used in marketing talk about a receiver before, but (and this was back a bit), from what I recall that was largely snake oil. The tone of various speakers will always be different, and it's really about impossible to correct as it's nearly impossible to define in the first place. It's not pitch and it's not volume, it's additional "waste" noise that allows one to discern between sources which are otherwise identical (eg. playing the same note on two different instruments at the same volume you can still identify each source as being a different instrument). I mean, how do you adjust for that? How do you adjust your speaker such that your tuba sounds more like a tuba and your claranet more like a claranet, and your cello more like a cello? You really can't. Worse, the fact of the matter is that these programs are typically run through a pinpoint microphone, and let's face it that's really not a top-quality mic, further making it next to impossible.

I could see a receiver attempting to better define where the center of a note is and I could see people marketing that as tone, but I think that's actually a bit different than a tone really is per se. And even then, really, I think that just tries to distort what your speakers are designed to output via the input of a pinpoint microphone and don't really see that as being a positive thing to do for the most part. Mileage may, of course, vary because it is in the end all a highly subjective thing.

QFT! I'll add that NOTHING (no matter how much it costs) is perfect.

What I will add this about the MIC's is that they are more sophisticated than they look! They are not "just or only" analog and run with the receiver's computer software. Until I used these features in about 30 different environments I wasn't a believer. IMHO, the Pioneer one (MCACC) worked the best even though the Pioneer wasn't the best Receiver of the group.

http://www.soundadviceblog.com/hdmi-receivers-the-two-best-buys-on-the-planet/


MCACC Advanced Room Correction provides superior performance.

I’ve never had good luck with automatic setup systems on lower priced gear, from versions of Audyssey to Sherwood Newcastle’s SNAP. SNAP isn’t even a lower priced option - the processor I used it with cost $1,500, and that did not even include an amplifier. No matter how the automatic systems configured and adjusted the system, I always found I preferred the sound of the system when I set it up on my own and turned off the equalization. In short, they were doing more harm than good.

Pioneer’s Advanced MCACC is a game changer in this regard. It’s simply fantastic and yielded an improvement that was dramatic and obvious. If I had the Onkyo I would set it up myself. If I had the Pioneer, I would definitely use the MCACC.

I couldn't agree with him more. I've only had one other Pioneer fail to setup once. That was in an office where they didn't need it anyway. I normally start it and leave the Run.

Last but not least, source material is the most overlooked part. I laugh at folks calling themselves Audiophiles while using Plain old CD's for the source:rofl:

[STEvil]

Actually all MIC's are analog in nature. They may have a digital to analog converter in the MIC or in the receiver itself, but the element which picks up the played source material is always a coil based pickup.

Unless someone threw out some new technology that i'm not aware of which I doubt.

[Donnie27]

Actually all MIC's are analog in nature. They may have a digital to analog converter in the MIC or in the receiver itself, but the element which picks up the played source material is always a coil based pickup.

Unless someone threw out some new technology that i'm not aware of which I doubt.

See correction?