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AngryAlpaca
01-03-2004, 09:07 PM
I'm bored, and I know that most people are sick of answering the same answer to the same question repeatedly. First I will start with the basics, and then I will move on to equipment.

Water cooling: The Basics

Processors draw more and more power, but the melting point of silicone remains the same. Something has to be done. One solution is air cooling- strapping a big heat sink on your CPU, and putting a very loud fan on. However, due the physical limits involved, such as the heat transfer rate of the material, and the limited size, this isn’t always practical, not to mention loud. So, what can be done? You can use heat pipes to spread the heat out more, to get more efficiency out of your heat sink by utilizing all of the surface area, rather than a little bit at the bottom, or, water cooling. Water cooling is, as you may have guessed, the use of water to cool your processor. This offers several advantages, the first being that you can get the heat moving as fast as you want, much faster than with copper, or even diamond, by increasing the flow rate. It also allows you to use a large radiator, and that has a much higher surface area to dissipate heat from than a heat sink could possibly have. It also lets you use larger fans that move more air, with a lot less noise. Alas, nothing is perfect. Water cooling will usually cost more than air cooling, and take up a great deal more room. The cost can be offset by thinking, “Instead of buying a whole new heat sink when I upgrade, I can buy a 10 dollar top for my water block that allows compatibility.” The room thing can’t be fixed, but that isn’t a big issue for most.

Okay, so now we go into the actual act of water cooling. Basically, you have a water block on the CPU that absorbs heat, and passes it onto the water. Most water blocks are designed in such a way that a lot of heat is transferred to the water, with the use of mazes, that channel the water around, or, more recently, jet impingement, with micro fins. To move water through this water block we use a pump. Well, a pump is the best way, some people use natural water convection, but this isn’t very effective. A pump uses an electric motor to spin an impeller that forces the water through the tubing, and into the water block. Now that we’ve got the heat in the water, we must remove it. We do this with the use of a radiator, and we’ll go into the specifics later. With a radiator, however, the natural convection of the heat isn’t enough for most users, so we connect a fan. 120mm fans can be used, and these cut down on noise, while boosting airflow. A fan has a dead spot so a shroud should be used. Once again, we’ll go into this later. So, after the radiator, the water goes on back to the water block, and begins the cycle again. It doesn’t sound so hard, does it?

Water blocks:

This is a chunk of metal that goes on top of your CPU. Its only purpose is to transfer heat from the CPU, to the water, and is probably the most important part of the system. If you want to upgrade, this is the thing to change. They are designed to get optimal heat transfer, and move the heat from the CPU to the water in the most effective way possible. Older style blocks used mazing, or routing the water so it spends more time in the block, to accomplish this. However, recently the White Water water block came out, and this used jet impingement and micro fins. Jet impingement is the use of a decreased barb size to accelerate the water to fairly high speeds, so the water hits the base at a fairly high speed, and carries the heat away quite effectively. Micro fins are tiny fins in the base of the block made to increase both turbulence and surface area.

The very best water block is the Cascade, and this uses jet impingement with little holes, and corresponding cups in the base of the block. However, this block is not available at the moment, and may not be for quite a while. The White Water comes in next place, and is available for only $50. It has a poor surface finish, and lapping should be done. The Danger Den RBX places somewhere around here, and is, in my opinion at least, a rip off of the White Water, and it isn’t even as good. It’s hard to mount properly, and also has a poor finish, although it isn’t as bad as the White Water’s. The Silverprop Cyclone Evolution blocks are very high quality blocks, right next to the RBX in performance, and they look nice, but they are hard to come by. www.criticool.com is the place to get them in North America at the moment. Swiftech’s block comes in the next position, and is not very restrictive, like all the others listed here.

For Athlon 64: The RBX and the Swiftech MCW5002 are out, and I advise one of the two. They are pretty much the same, due to the larger die, but I’d still go for the RBX.

If your water block has 3 barbs, the water goes in the middle, and out the sides, and these come with a Y fitting, that you use to reconnect those barbs.

http://www.overclockers.com/articles373/wbsum.asp to check for water block ratings. This site is very accurate, and probably the most. Lower C/W is better, along with a lower pressure drop.

Chipset Water blocks

These are, as the name implies, water blocks for the Northbridge chipset. I do not feel these are necessary, due to the low heat output of the NB, and the insensitivity to temperature changes (Within reason.) Good air coolers, such as the Swiftech one, will actually outperform water cooling for the NB. NB coolers also hamper the cooling performance of the rest of your system, so your GPU and CPU will suffer. Anyway, there are a variety of chipset coolers, and they all cool pretty much the same. So, you should look for a block with low resistance. For this, I would suggest the PolarFLO GPU/NB block, I think. Or, you may want a cheap block. For this I would recommend the Dtek NB block, or the Swiftech MCW20. If you get the Swiftech, make sure to get tubing adaptors so you can use ½” ID tubing with it.

GPU block: This is a block for your video card. Unlike the chipset block, this one DOES matter. The GPU block I recommend above all is the Silverprop Fusion block. These are built much the same as Silverprop’s CPU block, but made for the video card. The HL has higher barbs than the SL to avoid hitting RAM sinks. That’s the only difference. Top quality, but they may exceed your price range. If so, look into the MCW50, again with the adaptors, or the Danger Den Maze 4 block.

Lapping: Lapping is a method of smoothing out your waterblock so that you get better contact with your CPU. To lap, you should get some good quality brand (3M is good) wet-or-dry 600 grit (and possibly higher) sandpaper, a bucket of water with a bit of soap in it, a mirror or piece of glass, the newer the better, and a small damp cloth of some sort. Mark the bottom of the waterblock with an "X" from a felt marker, or, like I do it, squiggle all over, especially in the middle. Find a decently smooth surface, such as a table, and place the damp cloth on it. This is to prevent the glass or mirror from sliding around. Next, place the glass on top of this. Now, wet the sandpaper in the slightly soapy water, as well as your waterblock's base. Place the sandpaper on the mirror, and the waterblock on top. Push the waterblock across the sandpaper, without putting any downwards force on it. Let the weight of the waterblock do the scraping work. After 2-3 minutes, wet the waterblock again, and rotate 90 degrees. Repeat over and over, until all the felt marks are completely gone. It should now be flat. If you are really freaky about the smoothness of this, then you should do this process again with higher grit sandpaper, however, be warned that anything over 600 grit has extremely diminishing returns. Anything over 600 grit probably won't do much at all.

Pumps:

These move your water through your tubing. I’m not sure about the specifics of the inner workings of these, but it involves a spinning magnet. Pumps have three ratings: Flow; measured at 0’ head resistance, due to this it has very little bearing on the performance of the pump, but the higher the better anyway. Head pressure; measured in feet H2O or metres H2O. This is the most important number, as we have got a lot of resistance in our systems. The higher the pressure, the better it is. We’ve also got heat; this is the amount of energy the pump draws, and it transfers most of the drawn heat to the water. Important! The power rating is only accurate at 100% flow, which is impossible to get in a water cooling system. This is dependant upon flow, so a low flow pump will have a lower heat rating than a high flow pump, but in a system, due to the resistance, and the lowered flow, the heat drawn is much lower than its rated number.

I think I’ll make this fairly accurate generalization right now. ALL standard pumps perform the same. By standard, I mean the 300GPH pumps with at least 6feet head pressure, or ~150+ GPH pumps with ~11+ feet pressure. In a typical system, consisting of a Procore and a White Water, there will be NO measurable difference between these pumps. The differences get larger with more blocks, and more resistance, but they’re still very small. With that said, I consider the Mag 3 the best pump out there. It has the best flow, but that is balanced by its high heat, it has a three year warranty, it’s relatively quiet, and it’s only 40 dollars. Use an unrestricted inlet, preferably 5/8” ID or higher. It doesn’t come with barbs, but you can get them free from the sticky in this section. The Mag 3 has minor problems with leaks, but these are correctable with Teflon tape, an O-ring, or a lot of sealant. The Iwakis are the cream of the pump crop. The MD20RLZT provides the most pressure of any pump, with a fair amount of flow at all of the levels. It has slightly higher heat than any pump listed here, but its high flow can probably compensate for that. It is quiet, and, like all Iwakis, is high quality, and incredibly expensive. It is highly suggested if you don’t mind paying a lot, but be warned, it is large and probably won’t fit in your case. The MCP 600 is the best or second best performing pump out there, barring the Iwakis, despite its small maximum flow, due to its high head pressure, and incredibly low heat. It is 12VDC, so it plugs into your power supply, and sucks up to 0.75amps. Form your own opinions about that. It is a quiet pump. It costs upwards of 70 dollars. The Eheim 1250 is a very high quality pump, albeit with worse performance (Once again, it doesn’t matter) than the other options. It runs at about 60 dollars, and is quiet. I suggest this pump for longevity, or in a situation that any minor failure is catastrophic. I have never heard of ANY problem with this pump. The Danger Den DD-D4 pump is a high performance pump, with flow rivaling that of the Mag 3, but with about ½ the heat. This is probably the highest performing non-Iwaki pump out there, but is 12VDC, and sucks up to 1.5 amps. Once again, form your own opinion. This pump is noisy, and costs 75 dollars at the moment. I wouldn’t advise it. The Hydor L30 is becoming a worse and worse option, but is small, outperforms the Eheim 1250 (Once again, does not matter) and fairly quiet. A few problems have been reported with this pump. It sells for around 50 dollars. The Via Aqua 1300 is the cheapest pump out there. It is high heat, noisy, and low quality. The only reason I would advise this pump is if price were a serious issue.

Radiators:

Radiators are used to dissipate heat. A radiator usually consists of a large amount of very small, flat tubes, with fins attached to increase heat dissipation. There are used in cars, for the main radiator, and the heater core. This is the best kind of radiator, (I, and many others, refer to this kind of radiator as a heater core style radiator) but there are two others. The main alternative radiator type is the winding tube radiator. It involves a (You guessed it!) winding tube, with fins attached to increase heat dissipation. These are generally used in phase change coolers, where the objective is to get the liquid as cool as possible, rather than getting as much liquid as possible fairly cool, and aren’t very good for our purposes. They restrict flow a lot, and are usually more expensive than heater cores, and don’t dissipate the heat as effectively. The stacked plate radiator is built very similar to the heater core style radiator, but uses wide, flat tubes as the primary heat dissipation thing, sometimes with fins between them, rather than using the fins as the main way to dissipate the heat. It seems that these would as good as heater cores at cooling, but due to availability and price concerns, these aren’t used.

The heater core from an ’86 Chevette is what you should buy. It has very good performance, low pressure drop, and a damned good price (Around 20 dollars in an auto parts store.) It does, though, have one 5/8” barb, and one ¾” barb, so you have to change them out, or stretch your tubing over it. The ¾” one will be tough to stretch your tubing over. You can buy a shroud already made from Dtek for this radiator. If you don’t want to mod the radiator yourself, you can just buy a Dtek Procore for 12 dollars more. This is about 7X6”, so it won’t perfectly fit where a 120mm fan would fit. A better choice than either of those, though, would be a single pass heater core from a ’76 Chevy truck without air conditioning, but it is much larger (12”X6”) and slightly more expensive. Also, you cannot buy a shroud for it, already made. www.airspirit.net to choose your own heater core, so it is perfect for your situation. Now, there are also the made-for-PC options. The Black Ice Extreme is the most commonly used of these. It fits where a 120mm fan fits, and fits a 120mm fan without a shroud (Shrouds are still good.) Its performance is second to the Procore, but it costs a lot more, and restricts flow more. There is also the Black Ice Extreme II, which is twice as big, and that performs better than the Procore, but once again it costs more. They also come in an 80mm size, and a 160X80mm size. There are also the Thermochills. They come in a bunch of sizes: 80mm, 92mm, 120mm, 240X120mm, and 360X120mm. The 240X120 and 360X120 both outperform the standard heater core, but I doubt they outperform the 10X6 single pass. Do NOT buy radiators smaller than 120X120. That is just high temperatures, wasted money, and a lot of frustration waiting to happen. Do NOT buy a Black Ice Pro. It is a VERY poor performer. Do NOT buy a Swiftech 676 radiator. It may be massive, but it’s a terrible cooler. Do NOT buy a winding tube radiator. Once again, a bad cooler.

Shrouds: Shrouds are used to attach the fan to the radiator, and to distance the fan from the radiator as well. You want one that spaces the fan at least 1” away, and, naturally, it should fit. If you have a Procore, or a heater core of the same size, this could be useful: http://www.overclockers.com/tips1138/

Fans: Fans use a DC motor in the middle of the fan, with blades on the outside to move air. You want 120mm fans, or larger, because they don’t have to rotate very quickly to move as much air. Basically, get the fan that moves the most air for your noise tolerance. If it’s really low, get a “silent” fan. If it’s really high, get a fan that moves 190CFM. 70CFM should be considered a minimum air movement speed.

Filling and bleeding the system: There are two main ways to fill/bleed your system, the reservoir, and the teeline. A reservoir is a large holding tank for water, and it usually has a place in which to put the water. The easiest way to fill and bleed the system, but it consumes space, and costs money. A teeline is simply a tee somewhere in your system, with a long piece of straight tubing sticking out the top. This is cheap, and saves space. I advise a reservoir if you have the space.

Bay Reservoirs have been improving recently, but I still don't trust them. If they're the only reservoir that fits your system, go for it. If you don't want to submerge your pump, you can either use a PVC reservoir, or another good option is the Criticool Waterplant. It is high quality with multiple barb configurations. Submerging your pump drastically improves your flow, but there are no commercial options, so the best method is to put it in a small Tupperware container, and then fix it up so it can close.

Tubing: This is what the water flows through. Larger ID is better, but ½” is standard, so it is easiest. You want thick walled tubing (1/8”, ¾” OD for ½” tubing) to avoid kinking.

Tygon is the preferred type of tubing, but it offers very little advantage for its cut throat price, of around $2.60 per foot. Clearflex 60 is next, very similar to Tygon, a little less flexible and stretchy, but it shouldn’t be a problem. Next in line is tubing from the good ol’ Home Depot. Look at the tubing there, and make sure it isn’t squished, or pre-kinked. It is cheap, and easy to get.

Clamps: These are NOT optional. Put these on every barb, and prevent leaks long before they start. There are two kinds, these being, steel worm drive, and nylon hose clamps. Steel worm drive clamps are tightened with a screwdriver, are durable, and hold very well. The nylon hose clamps are put on with pliers, are plastic, and hold well enough. I advise buying steel worm drive clamps, available at Home Depot.

Cooling Fluid: For best heat transfer/heat capacity, nothing beats pure water. However, it is best to add 5% Water Wetter to prevent organic growth and corrosion. Water Wetter DOES stain your tubing, eventually, and may even cause problems. While these problems are rare, they can be avoided. Next to Water Wetter there are a variety of other things that perform fairly closely, the most popular being Zerex racing fluid and Swiftech HydrX. Antifreeze is not good for computer cooling, as it is viscous, has poor cooling capabilities, and does not lubricate as the others do.

Water chilling: Now we are getting out of the basics, and more into the advanced usage of a watercooling system. Chilling is to make your water cooler than its surroundings. This is usually done with a phase change unit, such as a fridge, air conditioner, or dehumidifyer. DO NOT USE A MINIFRIDGE! THIS IS ALWAYS THE FIRST QUESTION EVERYONE ASKS! It will not hold up to the load. An air conditioner over 5000 BTU will usually cut it, and keep your water nice and cool. A 40 pint dehumidifier should also work.To get this to chill your water, you should gut it, and put the cooling coils from the unit in your reservoir, or, build a new reservoir. This will probably require you to build an out-of-case place for your stuff. Now: That's the easy part. Now, you need to condensation proof your motherboard. You need hose insulators, and something to insulate your waterblock. While chilling, the water may come to a lower temperature than 0 degrees Celcius. For those of you who don't know, that is frozen water. So, we need to add something with a lower freezing point, such as our good friend alcohol, or antifreeze. However, antifreeze has TERRIBLE cooling capacities, so alcohol/water or just plain windshield wiper fluid is what you should probably go for.

TECs: http://forums.extremeoverclocking.c...&threadid=36894 This guide will give you all the information you need, about the actual TEC. It doesn't say how to cool the hotside, other than water, and it doesn't recommend parts. Swiftech has a very easy to use TEC waterblock, the MCW-462UHT. It has 1/2" ID barbs, so the fact that it is Swiftech is nullified. The DD Maze 4 is a good waterblock for TEC use, and the DD coldplate clamps to the top for good heat transfer between Coldplate, TEC, and waterblock, but it isn't as easy to use as the Swiftech. Use a 226W TEC to get nice temperatures, but for a quick, easy improvement, I would just use a 169W or so TEC. You won't break the bank buying a PSU, and you won't have to go second-hand. You will still get 10-12 degrees better, if you have decent cooling for the hotside. Some people don't think you should have a TEC directly on your processor, but, some people think water cooling is a bad idea. I'm not saying that they are right or wrong, I'm just saying they really aren't too extreme. You will need to protect from condensation, and, using closed cell foam, or neoprene, this is relatively simple. I don't want to complicate my life too much by explaining, so I will just provide this link: http://www.swiftnets.com/socketsealing.htm I trust Swiftech enough to let them condensation proof it.

TEC power supplies: It's simple, really. There are Meanwells. Meanwells are not great. Sure, they fit easily within your unmodded case, but they run hot, and they cost $120! 120! Good regular power supplies, that provide enough amps, are good TEC PSUs. You should use at the VERY least a PSU with 25 amps on the 12v line for a 226W, and at least an 18 amps one for a 169W unit. Shroomer advises a 34A for the 226, and at least 25 amps for a 169, to keep the PSU at an optimal load. This will extend the life of your power supply. On the minus side, you will have to mod your case, or put your extra PSU externally to fit it. ATX PSU's won't start normally unless the motherboard is connected, but that it avoidable. Take a paper clip, and stick one end in the green wire thing. Put the other end in a black one. It should now start. You might want to tape up the paperclip so you don't get shocked, at some point or another.

One more thing: DO NOT BUY A KIT! I WILL TRACK YOU DOWN AND BRAND "MORON" ON YOU IF YOU BUY A KIT!

If you can customize the thing, with good components, and it will be cheaper, go for it. The Flowmaster XT is the best example of this.

Real reasons not to buy a kit:
1. The best kit is worse than the best aircooling.
2. They are expensive for what you get. In fact, they're just plain expensive.
3. Very little upgradeability. If you decide you want to switch to a White Water or a PolarFLO, or a better radiator, you will have to use really small fittings, or change everything else.
4. This is an extension of 3. They come with crappy parts. No part of the system is better than the parts you could get custom.
5. Some of them are rather loud.
6. Some of them require installation anyway! (Come on, people,where's the advantage?)

What to buy:
For those of you too lazy to make your own decision, here's my advice that I would give you in a thread.
Cheap: Via Aqua 1300 (You might as well go for the Mag 3, for 15 bucks more), Whitewater, Heater core, Tupperware for shroud and reservoir, Home Depot tubing, 120mm fan, and hose clamps. This may be above your budget, which most people put at around 100 dollars for a cheap watercooling, but, spending the extra 20 or 30 bucks now will be worth it.
Good: Mag 3, Whitewater, Heater core or Procore (same thing, more expensive) shroud, Clearflex 60 or Home Depot tubing, 120mm fan, and hose clamps.
Excellent: Mag 3, Whitewater, Heater core or Procore, shroud, Tygon or Clearflex 60, 120mm fan, and hose clamps.
These are just general guidelines, some of you may like to cheap out on tubing, but go crazy on the pump, or do some such thing.

That's pretty much all there is to it. If I made any errors, or omissions, do not be afraid to let me know.
If you want to get a more advanced understanding of water cooling, check this site: http://thermal-management-testing.com/ and read BillA’s comments about testing, and water cooling in general. Very informative. Also decent is http://www.overclockers.com/topicli...WATER%20COOLING The more recent articles should be considered more accurate.

afireinside
01-03-2004, 09:10 PM
Looks good. Dont feel like reading it all tho :p:

Might want to add that anything you use in a chiller to get bellow 0C is probley dangerous if you breath it so you should seal your res?

And dont you need to load the 5V on an ATX pelt PSU or it will burn out?

AngryAlpaca
01-03-2004, 09:14 PM
Why would something used to get below 0C dangerous? Are you talking methanol? I'm not sure about the 5V, does anyone have any information on this?

BoomStick
01-04-2004, 01:09 AM
I read the thread and agreed with all of it except the antifreeze statement. Can you back that up with some hard facts as I have read of many people using it with good success. Only thing I have heard about water wetter is that it helps with bubbles....but I could be wrong.

Dont many of the good sites sell Zerex, which is antifreeze if I am not mistaken...but I read somewhere that Zerex is actually a type of water wetter. Can anyone using it verify this.

Bra!nFreeZe^
01-04-2004, 01:52 AM
This is really a great thread for all newbs that wants to get into watercooling but I have one little correction! your GFX memory can be watercooled!

I found these : http://www.bsmultimedia.dk/info.php?id=299

http://www.bsmultimedia.dk/info.php?id=298

but anyway keep up the good work ;)

AngryAlpaca
01-04-2004, 11:49 AM
I think the problem with antifreeze is that the users think that it's good enough. It doesn't offer the same corrosion protection, lubrication, and it doesn't reduce the surface tension like WW does. I think Zerex may be a good choice. Brainfreeze: Those blocks cool your GPU as well. Your GPU needs better cooling than aluminum.

BoomStick
01-04-2004, 02:49 PM
Gotcha, and surface tension is a big deal if you got tons of bubbles.

How about mixing the 2?

NitroRat
01-04-2004, 02:57 PM
I want to know where i can get a prommie for $200 and kits are great for a guy that is new to watercooling...

BoomStick
01-04-2004, 03:03 PM
If you get a prommie for $200, but me one to would ya.

Dont think I have ever seen a prommie that cheap that was a running model.

As far as kits go...ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

Kits are only good if you are to lazy to do research as they really restrict what you can with your rig. Not to mention that for a wee bit more money you can put together a much better setup.

AngryAlpaca
01-04-2004, 03:08 PM
A prommie for $200? Hook us all up! Kits are terrible in ALL situations, unless parts are unavailable, and you don't want aircooling whatsoever. Boom: If you have Water Wetter in your system, it does everything antifreeze does, but with much less. Antifreeze's main purpose is to prevent freezing or boiling, and, apparently, it does help with corrosion. However, it is more viscous than water, and that hurts.

IFMU
01-04-2004, 04:33 PM
Looks pretty nice there AngryAlpaca.

Stuck. ;)

Karnivore
01-04-2004, 05:05 PM
I applaud your efforts, but very biased and opinionated.

AngryAlpaca
01-04-2004, 05:55 PM
Can you elaborate, Karnivore? I've tried to rate everything on its technical merits, not on my opinions.

NitroRat
01-04-2004, 07:08 PM
Then, after you've realized that with the cost of a watercooling system, TEC, and a Meanwell, you could've just bought a Prommie
My tec and meanwell was under $200 you tell me where to get the $200 prommie, already had the water cooling kit as do most people that go on to tec cooling...
As for kits an absolute noob would be better off getting a kit, less mistakes to be made, and they usually come with Pictures, who reads the directions anyway...

NitroRat
01-04-2004, 07:09 PM
And from what I've heard of iwakis is that they run very hot don't know for fact, but have read that more than once...

AngryAlpaca
01-04-2004, 07:11 PM
Oh. I see. Your TEC, meanwell, blocks, pump, radiator and tubing probably cost a fair bit, but I wrote that long before I realized how much a prommy was. There's no blushing emoticon. Fixed.

Karnivore
01-04-2004, 07:16 PM
Don't get me wrong, thats a great effort, and as I said, I applaud your work, Just that when you make claims of superior, or terrible performance, bad choice for a particular application, ETC. It would be nice to supply a link, or provide some other form supporting evidence. Without such supporting evidence, its all just opinion. Granted some of your opinions are common knowledge to Experienced folks, but your target audience is not experienced.

AngryAlpaca
01-04-2004, 09:57 PM
The unfortunate thing is, you're partially correct. There are dozens of reviews out there for pretty much everything there is, and I've taken it upon myself to sort through what's good and what's bad. There is, alas, no way to get it all 100% accurate unless I can get BillA to test everything... And even then, you have to consider the items price, performance, tube-staining, noise, how it would affect one's individual system, all of that stuff is hard to sort through, and I haven't got a single link that can answer any of these questions. However, based on feedback at forums.extremeoverclocking.com I believe this is fairly accurate. If there is anything incorrect, I invite you to discuss this with me.

Bra!nFreeZe^
01-05-2004, 11:05 AM
Angry I have actually also seen a shop in germany that sells memory blocks for your gfx but i cant remember the url so I found those innovatek blocks instead....and yes they do cool your memory

AngryAlpaca
01-05-2004, 05:08 PM
That's not what I meant. I meant that it did cool your GPU, but, it was made of aluminum, and was probably a poor performer. I added the block you were referring to, but I don't think it's a good idea, seeing as it's aluminum, expensive, and your RAM doesn't need better than passive cooling.

Bra!nFreeZe^
01-06-2004, 12:13 PM
they actually also manufacture these! http://www.innovatek.de/contentServ/3.0/www.innovatek.de/data/media/27/500747_kl.jpg <---- they are for memory only!

kommando
01-12-2004, 07:55 PM
Somr emore Aussie Blocks
Silverprop HL GPU Block: Being revied soon
Silverprop Nexus LX

AngryAlpaca
01-12-2004, 07:57 PM
Oh yeah, about those GPU blocks. How do they perform? What does the inside look like? I'm quite impressed by the Cyclone Evolution, and I was wondering how those did. What's this Nexus LX? Silverprop's site doesn't show much information.

kommando
01-22-2004, 08:25 AM
Aaah when ill get them ill give you some pics.

The hl is a good performer, review come up soon. The sl is being reviewed at www.planetmodz.net

AngryAlpaca
01-22-2004, 04:43 PM
Oops. I forgot to update this one. Updated.

kommando
01-22-2004, 06:37 PM
When i grab the Nexus SX, ill post a comment on it installation and stufff.

D3Railur
01-26-2004, 07:31 AM
What is the max gph you would recommend for a 1/2" setup???

sandman
01-26-2004, 09:27 AM
There is no max, I however would watch th ePSI and not go over like 25PSI.

But, you would be spending over $150 for a pump of that power.

Shroomer
01-28-2004, 04:56 PM
You might want to edit the TEC PSU section man

generally a PSU runs most efficient at 75% load so you would need 34A on the +12 for a 226W tec and that will keep the PSU at it's best performance levels...

kommando
01-31-2004, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by D3Railur
What is the max gph you would recommend for a 1/2" setup???

The more the better because it spends less time in the block so less heat is carried in the water. It dosn't really matter, but there has to be some flow.

KennyC
02-01-2004, 06:24 AM
How much of a drop in Temp could I expect to get from watercooling over Air?

With out using water chillers. Just straight water cooling.


TIA

AngryAlpaca
02-01-2004, 10:06 AM
With an Alpha cooler? Quite a bit, I should think. 10 degrees, at the least, I'd guess.

KennyC
02-01-2004, 11:14 AM
I would only see a "10 or so degree" difference if I went to water?

hmm..

Thanks for info.

gkiing
02-14-2004, 01:19 PM
maybe so, but when I went to watercooling from a vantec aeroflow i went from 2300mhz (1700+ DLT3C) to 2600mhz, and it was way more stable

AngryAlpaca
02-28-2004, 01:07 PM
Major update... I think this is much more objective, informative, and accurate.

Karnivore
02-28-2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by AngryAlpaca
Major update... I think this is much more objective, informative, and accurate.

Props on the rewrite, I din't read it word for word, (a bit long for my taste) but I think you've done a much better job of remaining objective, yet still getting the info acrossed.

Some of your statements are sure to raise a few eyebrows, and while I don't agree with everything you've said, Revision 2.0 is a worthy update.

:toast:

AngryAlpaca
02-28-2004, 01:39 PM
What don't you agree with? I'd be happy to explain my reasoning about them.

Karnivore
02-28-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by AngryAlpaca
What don't you agree with? I'd be happy to explain my reasoning about them.


Well without re-reading and taking notes, I would disagree on your choice of WaterWetter, The statement regarding Swiftechs 676, Sub 120mm rads, and the use water blocks for the NB.


But again, as a whole you've done well on the rewrite.

AngryAlpaca
02-28-2004, 02:34 PM
I'll lay out the facts about the Water Wetter. On the issue of the 676's, I trust rocketmanx's opinions on that, and he found better performance with a single heater core than a pair of those. http://www.overclockers.com/articles778/index05.asp for my opinions about sub-120mm radiators. A C/W of 0.070 is bad for a radiator. 105 (CPU at 90W, and pump at 15) watts X 0.070 = 5.6 degrees above ambient. I would consider that bad. What about waterblocks for the NB? They restrict your flow, and they don't gain you anything over good air. Nothing at all. The stability is the same, and the temperatures are about the same, or higher with water. I've layed out options if they are still convinced they want to watercool it.

mdzcpa
02-28-2004, 02:38 PM
No offense but it still needs work.

The 676 rad isn't actually that bad at all. Coupled with high CFM 120s it's more than enough to handle tec use.

Bad advice on the Meanwell. It's still the best fit for most folks. Running a 226w TEC at 13.5v is the optimal sweet spot which doesn't over power most water cooling systems. The meanwell runs 13v +/- 10% and fits the bill perfectly.

Not good to call people who get kits "morons". Not only is this in poor taste, but it wrong. For some users a kit may be the best choice. Not everyone has the same value system as you do, so your opinion is narrow minded. Those who do not have the time or inclination to peice together a good system can get good performance from a kit ala Swiftech or Dangerden.

All in all very biased advice. Some real good stuff in there too. You just have to wade through all of your opinions as to what is good/bad based on your personal value system.

mdzcpa
02-28-2004, 02:43 PM
One other point, although I advise folks not to bother cooling the NB, to say there is no gain is false. A year ago maybe nothing could be gained, but the NF2 and Canterwood/Springdale chipsets run damn hot and do benefit from water cooling. Is it worth it...maybe...maybe not.

Remember, a good author lays out the facts and then lets the readers decide what to do for themselves. The opinions based on the personal value system of the author should be left out.

AngryAlpaca
02-28-2004, 02:44 PM
"If you can customize the thing, with good components, and it will be cheaper, go for it. The Flowmaster XT is the best example of this." I'm not referring to that kind of kit. I layed out my reasoning on the Meanwell, and shroomers advice seems accurate, as you should always use a more powerful PSU than you need. Give me proof on the 676, that's better than the advice I've already gotten. In fact, Swiftech has gotten rid of support for it, which implies that something is wrong with it on some level.

Karnivore
02-28-2004, 03:25 PM
The 676 is not the best Rad, but it does do a decent job, I've done builds with both and a single 676 was not the "Terrible cooler" you noted, and performance was not far from the Procore. The unique size and shape of the 676 offers some options that the Procore does not, to call it a "Terrible cooler" is simply NOT true.

WaterWetter was not formulated for low temperature systems, performance gains due to relieved surface tension is questionable at best. It does offer anti-life and ant-corrosive qualities, as do other formulations, however to refer to WW as being the best choice/performer for additive is still very much in debate. As such portraying it as "Best" is misleading.

Cooling of the NB, is also dependent on the hardware, and the stress level of said hardware. Plenty of documented instances of cooling beyond air capability netting substancial gains. Not saying that in all cases a passive solution would be surpassed by anything more, just that to say H2O cooling of the NB hampers performance? Again not true and depends to heavily on circumstances.


I would also agree with mdzcpa, your threatening tones would be best omitted, as would the term "moron".
Meanwell are also top quality supplies, they may not be the least expensive, and as do ANY PSU they do produce heat, however PROPER air circulation takes care of the heat quite nicely, and the ease of installation makes it a clean option.

You may also want to mention that most PSU's are sold rated at peak output, which is typically a substancial amount more then RMS rating. Another interesting point regarding High current DC supplies you fail to mention is the fact that very few are actually rated for 100% DUTY CYCLE @ rated current , Most of the high current Budget supplies that cost less than $100 fall into this category. Honestly I've not seen a quality PSU over 20 amp @ 100% duty cycle for under $200. Some of the better ones will run 24/7, however they are not rated for such. Some names which can be put in this categtory; Workman, Tripplite, Pyramid, RadioShack, etc. Plus the Slew of other PSU' sold and marketed under many names for typical shoppers in this class.

mdzcpa
02-28-2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by AngryAlpaca
I'm not referring to that kind of kit.

That was not made clear by your following comment I quoted from your guide:

One more thing: DO NOT BUY A KIT! I WILL TRACK YOU DOWN AND BRAND "MORON" ON YOU IF YOU BUY A KIT!

Hmmm.

I layed out my reasoning on the Meanwell, and shroomers advice seems accurate, as you should always use a more powerful PSU than you need.

Your guide clearly downplays the positive attribute of being able to put the MW in a bay space, and overplays the heat issue. Placing the MW in the top bay with a vent in the case works perfectly and allows the best of both worlds.

I respect shroomer as I know him from around the community. And I mean no offense. But, one person's opinion does not constitute conventional wisdom. An overkill on the PSU, may, or may not be beneficial depending on the application.

Give me proof on the 676, that's better than the advice I've already gotten. In fact, Swiftech has gotten rid of support for it, which implies that something is wrong with it on some level.

Holy cow...where do I start with this boatload of manure. Lets see:

First we'll look at Swiftech's product catalog noting that the current Heavy Duty 22501 series kit includes the 676 rad. (http://www.swiftnets.com/assets/images/products/h20-22501/h20-22501_R2-400x373.jpg) . Further details regarding the 676 in this application can be found HERE (http://www.swiftnets.com/products/H20-22501-0.asp) .

Next, if you do a search, you'll find many folks that have had great success with the rad. For better proof you can check out my Quiet Power TEC Upgarde article HERE (http://liquidninjas.com/reviews.php?op=showcontent&id=20&title=Swiftech%20Quiet%20Power%20Thermo%20Electric %20Cooling%20Upgrade) the results speak for themselves. For more current stuff, the 676 was plenty enough cooling to get my TEC'd P4 3ghz to 4ghz last April when that was still a very rare occurence. You can see that
HERE (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12425)


I guess I'm sorry I even commented. But, some good advice to remember if your gonna praise or flame a product is that you need concrete performance data. Again, word of mouth. or a few opinions here or there, do not constitute conventional wisdom.

Sorry if I offended you.

Karnivore
02-28-2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by AngryAlpaca
I layed out my reasoning on the Meanwell, and shroomers advice seems accurate, as you should always use a more powerful PSU than you need.

You seem to only quote from others Experience? How much of your recomendations is actual hands on experience? Using an overated Supply is only needed for one instance... The PSU you purchased was not rated for 100% duty cycle @ suggested max load. A quality PSU will not require over rating PERIOD.....




Originally posted by AngryAlpaca
Give me proof on the 676, that's better than the advice I've already gotten. In fact, Swiftech has gotten rid of support for it, which implies that something is wrong with it on some level.

LOL, here again you seem to only reference what you've read, granted your source of information may have valid input, but to call something Terrible without Supporting facts is poor practice at best.

I can tell you mdzcpa's opinion is highly valued by more then oner member here, there is a reason for that, perhaps you should investigate further.

Your argument of Discontinuation because of some short coming is SERIOUSLY flawed!

AngryAlpaca
02-28-2004, 04:50 PM
First, I'd like to point out that almost NONE of my stuff is based upon personal experience. That causes a bias, and I can't possibly rate everything there is. Second, this is the ONLY information I've been able to get from Swiftech's site about the 676 radiator: "Slim profile radiator assembly." They don't even claim anything about the performance. Arguing that if you put high CFM fans on it, it will be decent is like arguing that stock cooling is a good cooler, if you put a tornado on it... I believe that I have made the additive sound too important, it probably makes very little difference, and so I will change that part. I admit, I know very little about power supplies, but I still do not agree that Meanwells are as great as everyone makes them sound. Read the next sentence after my initial comment about kits. I will not stoop to the level of reading uncalibrated, highly inaccurate, possibly biased reviews from google. In fact, I couldn't find any reviews that reviewed only that radiator... Most of them used kits. Once again, I did not know that about power supplies. The first thing wrong with the 676 is its 3/8" fittings. The second thing, that stems from the first, is its high pressure drop. Third, you need two fans to move air over the entirety of the radiator, and fourth, it does not have a large amount of surface area. Fifth, it takes up a LOT of room, for not a lot of performance, and sixth, it's expensive! That's the only stuff I can factually prove, but I would imagine more.

You didn't offend me, indeed, I find it difficult to be offended on the Internet, but I like hard facts, and I don't mind discussing things.

Edit: I also said that the discontinuation IMPLIED something wrong with it, I didn't state that as a fact.

AngryAlpaca
02-28-2004, 06:22 PM
All right, screw it. What should my TEC power supply section say? (Incidentally, if you're watercooling, you're modding, as far as I'm concerned)

mdzcpa
02-28-2004, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by AngryAlpaca
Edit: I also said that the discontinuation IMPLIED something wrong with it, I didn't state that as a fact.

LOL...you didn't even check those links I gave you did you. You need to completely retract your discontinuation comment....it's obviously not discontinued. I even gave you the links. I can't do all your research for you:)

There is plenty more info on the Swiftech site about the 676 rad...lol. You must not have looked to hard at all. But, again, I'm not going to do your research for you.

And why is 3/8" inherently bad? I know plenty of folks running great 3/8" ID systems. Bigger is not always better. A well balanced system is more important than sheer size and flow rate.

Can you please provide proof of the high pressure drop of the 676? Can you point to some reliable testing? I'd like to see that. My experience, and that of quite a few others others is actually to the contrary of what you are saying. Some hard facts would be good.

Your third and fourth points entirely contradict one another. If it takes two 120mm fans to move air over the entirety of the rad, than obviously it has some good surface area.

It also takes up less room than any other twin 120mm rad on the market, and can be fit into a case easier too.

Btw, I never said it had to have high CFM to be "decent". Try rereading my post again. I said with the use of high CFM fans it could easily handle TEC duty. That's better than many rads out there.

As Karnivore already said, the 676 is not the best Rad, but it does do a decent job, I've done builds with both and a single 676 was not the "Terrible cooler" you noted

You can argue all you want that you beleive your "opinions" are good. But be aware that this is XS, and as such, there are many folks here who have had years of water cooling experience. I'd do a little more research before going off. You obviously didn't even know that Swiftech was still using that rad in their heavy duty kit. What else did you get wrong?

No offense, but some humble retractions and adjustments to your article would avoid the embarrassment you've continued to heap on yourself here.

I can appreciate your attempt at a good water cooling guide, but you need to be more open minded as to the hardware choices people have depending on the specific applications.

stardust
02-29-2004, 12:47 AM
I thought the guide was very well thought out. I think it was stickied for a reason. The guide was made to inform the general public about the comparison's of water cooling components. All those who criticize alpaca, do you feel justified for ruining someone's effort? Forums need informative and unlazy people like Alpaca to put forth the effort to educate newcomers.

I liked the guide and would like the guide to be put back up.

Props Alpaca

mdzcpa
02-29-2004, 01:48 AM
The last thing I intended on doing was "ruining" someones effort. That couldn't be further from the truth. The guide did contain some very good info.

But providing questionable guidance based on heresay alone, and calling users "morons" didn't seem like the kind of guide that would be XS caliber.

I would have rather seen the guide amended and improved over time based on user input rather than taken down. When presented with facts that would aid in enhancing the quality of the guide, the author chose instead to be defensive and argumentative. I am sorry he took offense at the comments. He clearly said no offense would be taken and that he like to discuss the hard facts. I guess that wasn't true after all:confused:

Karnivore
02-29-2004, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by stardust
I thought the guide was very well thought out. I think it was stickied for a reason. The guide was made to inform the general public about the comparison's of water cooling components. All those who criticize alpaca, do you feel justified for ruining someone's effort? Forums need informative and unlazy people like Alpaca to put forth the effort to educate newcomers.

I liked the guide and would like the guide to be put back up.

Props Alpaca


He CLEARLY asked for input, and even if he didn't I would still have commented the same way. The fact it was stickied does NOT make it correct, and beyond reproach! This guide had a specific intended audience (New User). Taking into account the intended audience, and the fact it WAS a sticky, is all the more reason it should be ACCURATE.

AngryAlpaca
03-01-2004, 07:48 PM
I didn't take offense your technical comments. I took offense to the fact that I was being told that I had not done my research, when I had. I've spent months working on this guide. I reposted it. I shouldn't have taken it down. I am sorry. I do NOT want to be called inaccurate by someone who said "handle tec use." regarding the performance of a radiator. That MEANS NOTHING! IT IS COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS! ANYONE CAN GET GOOD TEMPERATURES WITH TEC'S, EVEN WITH A POS RADIATOR! Handle means about the same thing, as "stuff" It is completely meaningless. Did you measure your water temperature? No. Did your water temperature have any effect on your actual temperatures that we could tell? No. I did know about the radiator being sold as part of the Swiftech kit, but I assumed they were simply selling old stock. I have to say, that morons comment is actually the most popular thing in the guide, so it has stayed since the very beginning. You know what, if you do buy a kit after reading everything I've said, for performance reasons, you are a moron. That's all there is to it. If you bought it for price or convenience, that's clearly a different story, as some kits do offer that.

AngryAlpaca
03-01-2004, 07:58 PM
And why is 3/8" inherently bad? I know plenty of folks running great 3/8" ID systems. Bigger is not always better. A well balanced system is more important than sheer size and flow rate.
Can you please provide proof of the high pressure drop of the 676? Can you point to some reliable testing? I'd like to see that. My experience, and that of quite a few others others is actually to the contrary of what you are saying. Some hard facts would be good.

Check the thermal-management-testing.com articles, they provide some hard facts for 3/8"
Your third and fourth points entirely contradict one another. If it takes two 120mm fans to move air over the entirety of the rad, than obviously it has some good surface area.

I am NOT going to even dignify that with a response. Do some research on radiators, and what, "surface area" means in their case.

Terrible is a relative term, and I've used it as such.

mdzcpa
03-01-2004, 10:11 PM
I was more than willing to just let this go had you just reposted your guide and lived in peace. *sigh*, but that's not gonna be the case now is it.

Originally posted by AngryAlpaca
I took offense to the fact that I was being told that I had not done my research, when I had. I've spent months working on this guide.

Posting hearsay as your own opnion is not research... LOL. At best its plagerism. If you spent "months" researching then where is your data? Where are the facts? The testing? How about even a few links to reputable sources? Is there anything in the guide that isn't just your opinion?


I shouldn't have taken it down. I am sorry.

No, you shouldn't have. Instead of getting pissed why don't you spend some time digging into the information provided to you and amend your guide accordngly. Why do you off handidly disregard anything to the contrary of "your opinion" without follow up?

I do NOT want to be called inaccurate by someone who said "handle tec use." regarding the performance of a radiator.

Then please be more accurate so I (we) don't have to tell you about it LOL.

That MEANS NOTHING! IT IS COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS! ANYONE CAN GET GOOD TEMPERATURES WITH TEC'S, EVEN WITH A POS RADIATOR!

Ummm...please...somebody stop you before this gets really embarrassing. Are you sure you want to say this? If you really beleive that radiator performance has no effect on temps, than that is simply frightening. Do some research for godsake before spouting off cause your pissed. In fact, I challenge you to find more than a few people who are running a 226w @15v and a 80w @ 12v in a single loop with a weak rad like a simple BIX and still have good temps when heavily overclocked. We'll assume idle temps under 0c, and loaded staying under ambient. That's what my "POS" 676 could do. I'm sure a single BIX would do better;)

The fact that a radiator can be designated for TEC use (ie it can "handle" it) says a lot about the radiator. Your personal inexperieince is showing badly I'm afraid.

Handle means about the same thing, as "stuff"

No it doesn't. It quite simply means that a given radiator has the capability of dealing with the extreme heat output of TEC blocks for typical use. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not sure what confuses you about that.

Did you measure your water temperature? No.

Wrong. Sure I did. I've been using TECs for a few years now and I always monitored the water temps of the various systems I've built. You see, I actually have hands on experience with TECs....unlike some others around here ..*cough* *cough* Water temps fluctuated depending on the radiator, flow rates, fans and fan speeds, block design, overclock, TEC PSU voltage and amperage, and more. A rad change alone could easily equate to serious changes of CPU temperature. Most of the time my water ranged from 31c to 38c depending on the system I used.

Did your water temperature have any effect on your actual temperatures

Of course. That's a silly question to ask. Anyone with even a basic knowledge about water cooling and TECs would know that:)

I did know about the radiator being sold as part of the Swiftech kit

Yeah.....right:rolleyes:


I have to say, that morons comment is actually the most popular thing in the guide

Gee, I wonder what that says about your guide:confused:


You know what, if you do buy a kit after reading everything I've said, for performance reasons, you are a moron. That's all there is to it.

Sure...okay. Calling people "morons" is always a nice way to convince them you know what you're talking about:rolleyes:

If you bought it for price or convenience, that's clearly a different story, as some kits do offer that.

Would have been nice if you put that caveat in your guide like I suggested wouldn't it?

I'm done on this thread. I know....you'll be happy about that.

But, before you decide to rip into another frenzy and spout off a bunch of "facts" in a fit of defensiveness, why don't you just step back and look at what I am trying to say here. There are a lot of others here at XS that haven't even bothered to touch this thread. Most likely becuase they wouldn't even know where to begin, nor want to hurt your feelings. So I guess that makes me the bad guy for trying to point out some things you should look into.

Good luck on your "guide":)

AngryAlpaca
03-02-2004, 03:21 PM
Posting hearsay as your own opnion is not research... LOL. At best its plagerism. If you spent "months" researching then where is your data? Where are the facts? The testing? How about even a few links to reputable sources? Is there anything in the guide that isn't just your opinion? I don't post it as my own opinion. I don't say its my opinion. I only say stuff if I trust the source. The water block rankings are from both pHaestus' testing, and overclockers.com waterblock test results. For the pumps, if you do the calculations, there is less than a 1 degree difference between an Eheim 1250 and an MD20RZLT, the lowest performance and highest performance pumps, respectively.
For radiators, I use Bill Adams' performance testing. I admit, I do not have facts for the '72 Chevy Truck without air conditioning, but I believe that there is enough information to go on. The pressure drop is exceedingly low, around 1/4 of that of a Procore, and it is large, and has lots of surface area, and a quality build.

The term handle means nothing. That's all there is to it. We don't know the specifics, so all it means, technically, is that it keeps the water cool enough to keep the hotside of the TEC cool enough to keep the processor within operating temperature. That's all it means. Nothing more.

I guess I was wrong about you measuring water temps, but you didn't post any, so, once again, the results were meaningless.

I meant to say easily noted difference to CPU temps. My mistake.

I assure you, I know what I'm talking about. Maybe you should venture out of XS and into the real world. Say some §§§§ like this in ocforums and they'll set you straight. Make sure you mention that you know exactly what you're talking about.

Karnivore
03-02-2004, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by AngryAlpaca
I assure you, I know what I'm talking about. Maybe you should venture out of XS and into the real world. Say some §§§§ like this in ocforums and they'll set you straight. Make sure you mention that you know exactly what you're talking about.



I would appreciate a clarification on this portion of your post. It seems rather insulting, and you seem to be insinuating that members here at XS don't know what they are talking about.

It seems this thread is deteriorating into insults, this is indeed unfortunate.

AngryAlpaca
03-02-2004, 04:56 PM
I'm not saying that, but I am saying that there's a good possibilty that you don't question his posts, since he is "well respected." My first post at ocforums opened my eyes, as the world of watercooling regulars unfolded around me.

skate2snow
03-02-2004, 05:28 PM
This guide should be to explainwhats the watercooling and how to install it, not do some comments.

And XS is mainly "popular" for the great guides. So can ALL the guides all have the same "impact" of explaining and not choosing?

And some guys here have PERSONNALY TESTED some hardware and you dont and youre still "disagree" w/ them:rolleyes:

OCme
03-09-2004, 02:59 PM
Can we give peace a chance? I'm trying to learn about the various disciplines of computer cooling here. Isn't team work what it's all about guys.

ocmyface
03-10-2004, 06:31 PM
OCme for president...

seriously guys, take your pissy attitudes to PM, this thread is supposed to be helping people

he obviously put quite alot of work, and if you think it sucks, make your own guide and post it, people can pick which one they likeand use that one

Karnivore
03-10-2004, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by ocmyface
OCme for president...

seriously guys, take your pissy attitudes to PM, this thread is supposed to be helping people

he obviously put quite alot of work, and if you think it sucks, make your own guide and post it, people can pick which one they likeand use that one

thread was pretty quiet untill you two arrived from??? xxforums perhaps? I don't care if GOD himself wrote the guide, if facts are NOT represented correctly what use is it? Plenty of opinion elsewhere.. You might also Re-read the part where AngryAlpaca ASKED FOR opinions... Sorry but your out of bounds on this one...

And THANKFULLY this forum is not run by a bunch of NAZI's, Opinions are welcome, flames ARE NOT..

skate2snow
03-13-2004, 02:16 PM
OCmyface: i think karnivore and mzcpa was helping angryalpaca, and not saying this sucks, but angryalpaca looks pretty closed to some help, and thats why it just turned like this.

shrae
03-18-2004, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by AngryAlpaca
I assure you, I know what I'm talking about. Maybe you should venture out of XS and into the real world. Say some §§§§ like this in ocforums and they'll set you straight. Make sure you mention that you know exactly what you're talking about.

Interesting. You say you know what you're talking about, but you already said you have no personal experience and that all the information contained within the guide comes from the opinions of others. Sorry, but that just won't gel with any discerning person.

Furthermore, XS is a top-notch community with a wealth of experienced users who bring substantial knowledge to this forum making it worthy of its name, and you would do well to avoid insulting its several thousand members. OCforums is a nice place with good mods and admins; I had an account with 2k+ posts there. But if you think the user level of OCforums comes even remotely close to XS, you're quite mistaken.

The bottom line is that guides should not contain outright judgements based on personal value beliefs. Substantiated opinions are fine; however, outright declarations of infeasibility or exclusions of certain products, especially without supporting evidence, are not. That's why we call them guides and not reviews.

It's nice to see effort being put forth in the name of helping others. But hopefully you can understand why many users would be rather put off by your guide from the very beginning.

Demon_Hunter
04-01-2004, 10:49 AM
Hey guys
I'm researching about water cooler to make one for my next computer.
My next computer is going to be an A64(probably 939 if I found it in time)
So I want to know a Pro-Radiator that can perfome good in overclock, not xtreme.(nothing too big, that doesn't fit in a Middle-Tower).
The processor block I found that the WhiteWater is a very good one but you need to do something to put in the A64 Socket.
The pump I dont know to much. I need some suggests.
The reservatory I'm going to by a 4/5 bay one, I think that is enough.
The tubing part I think 3/8 is the best.
The other stuff about WC I dont know too much too, so if someone could help-me It would be good.

Thanks

kommando
04-01-2004, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Demon_Hunter
Hey guys
I'm researching about water cooler to make one for my next computer.
My next computer is going to be an A64(probably 939 if I found it in time)
1)So I want to know a Pro-Radiator that can perfome good in overclock, not xtreme.(nothing too big, that doesn't fit in a Middle-Tower).
2)The processor block I found that the WhiteWater is a very good one but you need to do something to put in the A64 Socket.
3)The pump I dont know to much. I need some suggests.
4)The reservatory I'm going to by a 4/5 bay one, I think that is enough.
5)The tubing part I think 3/8 is the best.
The other stuff about WC I dont know too much too, so if someone could help-me It would be good.

Thanks

1) Try and find yourself a heatercore that'd fit your case. They're much cheaper and can devliver superior performance.
2)IIRC you use the mounting bracket and turn it backwards?
3) Eheim 1250 for silence and performance, Swiftech have a nice pump the MCP600 which runs off the 12v line.
4)That seems good
5) 3/8" and 1/2" are the most common around the watercooling area.

Hope this was helpfull.

Demon_Hunter
04-02-2004, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by kommando
1) Try and find yourself a heatercore that'd fit your case. They're much cheaper and can devliver superior performance.
2)IIRC you use the mounting bracket and turn it backwards?
3) Eheim 1250 for silence and performance, Swiftech have a nice pump the MCP600 which runs off the 12v line.
4)That seems good
5) 3/8" and 1/2" are the most common around the watercooling area.

Hope this was helpfull.

Hummm I dont have a case yet, but I know that is going to be a middle tower because I really dont like full tower, but I was thinking in something like the Black Ice Xtreme

fr33ze
04-04-2004, 07:56 AM
good write up, certainly learned a little bit.

i think to call everyone who buys a kit a moron though is a bit much. i bought a second hand wetandchilly chips kit off ebay for a lot less than i could build a costum kit and i did my research before i bought it, admitadly its not the best performer in the world but its not bad and it's sure as hell gonna be an improvment on my slk800 in terms of temps and Db. to say people who buy kits that fit in your drive bays are morons would be a little more accurate but i still think you should remove the word moron.

as for addatives would the Purple Ice Radiator Super Coolanton this page here (http://store.over-clock.com/Adaptors___Connectors.html) be ok or would i need to add anything else as well to stop stuff growing in it

OCme
04-08-2004, 09:03 AM
I have a JR-120 core that worked pretty good in the top of my lian-li case with a shroud and a single Panaflo H1A 120mm fan, but when I wanted more out of my water cooling system I went to my local auto parts Store and went through their catalog of about 300 cores to find a perfect dual core match for my case. I custom made a shroud for it and put two Panaflo H1A 120mm fans on it. The dual core only cost me 19.00 BUX and gave me much better temps 5 degrees above ambient vs. the 7 that
I was getting from my very expensive JR-120. Now that I have went to chilled liquid both my cores are collecting dust.

Demon_Hunter
04-09-2004, 12:43 AM
Hey guys
I wanting to know that a pump like the Eheim 1260 (http://www.dangerden.com/mall/Pumps/Pump_eheim.asp) when we use in the WC how to put in the power supply ??? it came with an adaptor or i need to buy one ??

thanks

Demon_Hunter
04-16-2004, 09:48 AM
No one knows ?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!!?

see ya

X-Ecutioner
04-16-2004, 12:10 PM
Demon_Hunter, eheim pumps are available in 2 versions

1. 230v
2. 110v

u won`t need an adapter ... u don`t need a (pc) psu to power it if u mean that

danger den sells the 110v vers, of course ... US

X

Demon_Hunter
04-19-2004, 01:16 PM
I'm in the US right now
my question is how to power it, like, if I want my pump to run from the psu, what kind of adapter I need to put in the psu ???

thanks

All Kill3r
04-28-2004, 03:23 PM
anyone ? im ordering an eheim pump and starting my water coolling setup for my next case also and would like to know.

eheim 1250 will be the pump, thats the only thing im sure on. does this run from psu? if so where do i get the adapter and what adapter is it.

can i get a link to the best rad to use ? will be cooling cpu/gpu. Will mount it on top of the case probably so size isnt too much of an issue.

is a res a critical item in the loop or will almost any res do as long as there is no leaks ?

1/2 tygon tubbing is best ? ill use that if it is.

:toast:

Thanks for any help in advance.

boshi
06-10-2004, 01:23 PM
I would have to say that you are way to hard on the Black Ice pro. There may be better radiators out there for the money, but it does do its job just fine.

Perc
06-14-2004, 04:15 PM
anything i should know about the JR-120 as im about to order one? im only going to cool my 9800pro and chipset the cpu is cooled by my mach1...

thx perc,

mrflushysheaven
07-13-2004, 06:58 PM
ok i was just reading these water cooling threads and something just popped into my head. if you were using a T-line instead of a res, how would you get your setup started when you first set it up. like how would you fill it up with water. i would imagine it would be much easier with a res, but a T-line seems a little more complicated. however i bet the answer is really simple that i just can't come up with. thanks.

OCme
07-14-2004, 07:22 AM
I think that a "T" is easier and not more complicated to use. Here is a pic of my last rig where I used a in-line T to fill or drain my water cooling system and bleed the system of air. I used a funnel to add fluid & just bent the T down to remove fluid. It worked better than a reservoir in my opinion and saved valuable room in my case az well...:D

boshi
07-14-2004, 06:18 PM
a t-line should be at the highest point in the system. Then you just fill it, and you're fine.

mrflushysheaven
07-15-2004, 08:23 AM
ohh haha i knew it was simple!

OCme
07-16-2004, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by boshi
a t-line should be at the highest point in the system. Then you just fill it, and you're fine.

umm, it doesn't really have to be at the highest point, though it might make bleeding the air from the system a little easier... I ran mine just before to inlet to my pump, at the lowest point of my system... the air will find its way to the upright portion of the T

macg
08-19-2004, 07:27 PM
yep, doesnt matter as long as you position it before the inlet of the pump

RADCOM
10-23-2004, 12:44 PM
Man I can see why they call this forum extreme; no half measures around here :D I bought a "kit" around three years ago; the innovatek rev3 it was awesome for it's time! :banana4:

OCme
10-23-2004, 01:12 PM
here is a picture of my inline-T

wiggyuk
02-20-2005, 08:50 AM
When you mentioned the 2 chevy heater cores can you please tell me where they are on this site?
http://webbase.transpro.com/hotcat/

OCme
02-21-2005, 02:47 AM
In my opinion the best way to get the right heater core for your rig is measure the area on your case that you want to install it, then go to your local auto parts store and go through their catalog to find a perfect match. It really doesn't matter if it is Chevy, Ford, Toyota, etc...



When you mentioned the 2 chevy heater cores can you please tell me where they are on this site?
http://webbase.transpro.com/hotcat/

shadowing
02-21-2005, 04:06 PM
Which pumps are usually better? the AC, or DC and which requires an external plug?

vapb400
02-22-2005, 05:37 PM
they are usually about the same. DC seems to have better head for the most part.

AC is plugged into the wall, DC to a PSU

tinker77
02-22-2005, 05:59 PM
cd ac? blah?

aca
06-15-2005, 02:18 PM
Tubing: This is what the water flows through. Larger ID is better, but ½” is standard, so it is easiest. You want thick walled tubing (1/8”, ¾” OD for ½” tubing) to avoid kinking.
You mean 1/4" ;)
BTW, great guide!

MaxxxRacer
06-15-2005, 02:23 PM
no its 1/8....

aca
06-15-2005, 02:35 PM
oh yeah... because it's 2x[1/8] in whole diameter. :) ... sorry.
got confused because on one site it says wall thickness is 1/4" so i thought it was just one "side" od the D.

skycrane
06-15-2005, 07:31 PM
Ummmm....

the only reason for peace, is to replenish the soilders for war :)

now that that is out of the way, I know im new to this forum. I read jeff's guide to the dula 1.6 and was impressed with it.

yes, my first rig was an aquarius 3 kit. i had no idea how to hook up everying and what went where, just that i was not getting good temps with my spark5 :(

having said that, it still was not good enough for me so i went on a shopping spree at dangerden :) for my new stuff. eheim 1250, rbx, tdx, maze4, black ice extreme pro, 2 120 mm fans, plastic clamps, and about 20 ft of tygon 1/2" tubing, and a single bay resivor. i had to replace the res because it had a few cracks in it after about 2 months and got my system wet. luckly for me there was no damage to anthing, so i got the new 2bay res and it sits OUTSIDE of my case.

it is keeping nice and cool 2 3gig prescotts, oc to 3.6 and the NB as well
temps are nice and cool at 18c this winter blowing cool air :) in the room. but now with summer upon us:( they are both running 30c.

Joe

PS. I have been thinking about chilling my water with a 226w pelt sanwiched between 2 cpu blocks. any ideas on if you guys think this will work? id like to get my temps back down to >20c if possible :)

MaxxxRacer
06-15-2005, 08:35 PM
skycrane, if you want to discuss your setup further make a new thread.

but to answer your question. no a 226watt pelt wont do much to cool your water down. it will be way too much of a hassle to do anything useful. if u want to pelt cool put a pelt on ur cpu's.

Gimmpy224
10-03-2005, 05:45 AM
read through it and it taught me a lot and answered quite a few of my questions, but one i was unable to find was where do i find these free barbs for the mag3 you are talking about?

MaxxxRacer
10-03-2005, 07:30 AM
talk about dead thread resurection...

moonlightcheese
10-03-2005, 05:54 PM
like a piece of ancient history lol. i love it.

Gimmpy224
10-03-2005, 06:02 PM
lol someone on the devhardware forums has it as a sticky so they dont have to answer basic questions :)

so anyone know what hes talking about when he refers to the sticky that tells you where to get the free barbs??

MaxxxRacer
10-03-2005, 06:22 PM
nope..

TBH, this guide is WAY outdated..

jump over to my guide. much more organized and thurough.... but im a bit biased.. judge for yourself.

freak22
10-03-2005, 06:25 PM
"bring out your dead" ding ding "bring out your dead" Im not dead. Im feeling much better now.

MaxxxRacer
10-03-2005, 08:08 PM
Monty Python and the holy grail..

NEEE!! NEEE!! NEEE!!

Gimmpy224
10-04-2005, 05:43 AM
Yea I read both threads, I was just wondering on the mag3 cause it seemed to be the best pump to me for its price, and theres noth much different in it and the mcp655 and hydro L30, aside from being ac, but i can get a relay for that :).

BRING US A SHRUBBARY!!!!!

MaxxxRacer
10-04-2005, 08:15 AM
well there is infact a rather large difference, but thats another story..

suffice to say there are plenty of good reasons why the mag3 doesnt make it into my pumps guide.

We brought you the shrubbary, now can we pass??

Gimmpy224
10-04-2005, 12:47 PM
well, would it be to much if i asked whats so bad about the mag3?

It was going to be my pump of choice but now i think im backon the market lol :)

but one thing i got off this forum was what radiator to use :)
now i too am waiting anxiously for the realease of the PA120.x, but i also read that someone ( i think it was your link ) highly recomends weapons custom heater cores.
so if it was on this forum ( i dont remember 0.o ) are his better than the PA120.x will be? cause from what I read thermochill claims to have used something a lot like heater cores ( i think ).

Yea ill post more when im home and can check up on all this instead of talking like I know something lol. :D :D

BRING US ANOTHER SHRUBBARY!

MaxxxRacer
10-04-2005, 10:00 PM
mag3 has a high failure rate and leaks if not sealed properly. some people get lucky with them, but with all of hte horror storries of these pumps I cannot reccomend them.
beyond that they have relatively high heat dump properties.

are you into max performance with no regards to noise, or quiet cooling?

Gimmpy224
10-05-2005, 11:58 AM
well, i guess more performance cause right now im using a gigabyte heatsink that weighs about 10 pounds and you can hear it running from the other side of my house lol.
but my look on the noise is, its like a car, i love my computer to sound like a beast :) means better performance ( for the most part ).

MonkSP
10-12-2005, 04:28 AM
I heard good radiators are external. Are there any internal good radiators? I hate having things outr of my case. I have a place for a 120mm fan.

Gimmpy224
10-12-2005, 05:28 AM
Im pretty sure if it can fit in your case its fine, you just have to sacrifice the space, and i guess it depends on where you want to put it.
I think right now the favorite is the PA120.x series.