Sanso PDH054 pump 12 volt - 30 ft head

[Grinchy]

I have read about this pump here in Italy, but didn't find it reviewed or sold anywhere else. It is from the japanese manufacturer Sanso and it seems like it blasts away every other 12 Volt competitor... 30 feet of head are Iwaki RD-30 24 volt territory...there is also a 24 volt version which has 40 feet of head. The pump cost a fraction of iwaki though.

http://www.nexthardware.com/image/oo_33452_export_html_m499ac25f.png

Here is the link to italian review site (use google to translate) :

http://www.nexthardware.com/recensioni/watercooling/93/sanso-pdh-054_4.htm

Here you can see how it fares compared to other common pumps like Laing ones.
Results are in Liters per hour and ACS and K7 are cpu and gpu waterblocks from Ybris...http://www.ybris-cooling.it/images/pompe/sanso/grafo03.jpg

[pokipoki]

Great find! Here's (http://www.sanso-elec.co.jp/english/catalog/catalog09.htm) the catalog and specifications.

High head, low capacities models

PDH-054
PD-51
PDH-751

But there seems to be a problem: maximum temperature for solution is 40C?

[fgw]

have seen two customers having tested this pump in their environment.

both agreed this pump does indeed have lot of pump height!

if you have a high restricting loop this pump might have an advantages.

in average loops it returns almost the same results as well known pumps like Laing DDC-1 BUT but at double the price and generating much more noise!

dont think its a real alternative ...

here is one of the customer reviews: http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/8762064-post1.html although its in german

[pokipoki]

I found another alternative to Iwaki RD-30 here (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=257736&highlight=alternative) (German pump)

[Grinchy]

have seen two customers having tested this pump in their environment.

both agreed this pump does indeed have lot of pump height!

if you have a high restricting loop this pump might have an advantages.

in average loops it returns almost the same results as well known pumps like Laing DDC-1 BUT but at double the price and generating much more noise!

dont think its a real alternative ...

here is one of the customer reviews: http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/8762064-post1.html although its in german

mmmm let me disagree....here a laing d5 cost almost as much as this and the same is for the ddc 1t plus with a ek top. just check on aquatuning for laing prices here in europe.
They are quite high, expecially considering that if you want the possibility to use g 1/4 barbs/comp fittings you have to buy a top for the both of them.
So for almost the same price yof a laing you get smth comparable to a RD 30 which(let's not forget it) requires an expensive 24 volt dc-dc converter.
The noise,if you place it vertically is much lower.then don't forget that you can regulate it to work at 7 v if you don't need all the power or u can use a faucet to lower the flow and hence the noise.
Anyway you have to consider that it is nowhere as noisy as a rd 30. and with 10 meters of head you are going to have of course some noise more than with a pump that has 4 meters of total dyn head pressure

[Grinchy]

I found another alternative to Iwaki RD-30 here (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=257736&highlight=alternative) (German pump)

it could become a sticky thread pokipoki but i am afraid that those pumps are much more pricey compared to the ones commonly used for wc.

[Grinchy]

Great find! Here's (http://www.sanso-elec.co.jp/english/catalog/catalog09.htm) the catalog and specifications.

High head, low capacities models

PDH-054
PD-51
PDH-751

But there seems to be a problem: maximum temperature for solution is 40C?

I talked with the guy who sell them here in Italy,he is the one who mods the tops to have g1/4 fittings. Specs that you see are very underestimated....he told me that the pump works easily at temps way higher than that. He otld me that also other specs are underestmating of the power of the pump like max flow that is indeed much higher than the advertised one....Sanso just advertise lower specs than the real one....very rare these days indeed... i think the temperature is the advised operating temperature,but it is not realistic that it is a limit since in some places 40° is ambient temp . To give you an example he let me notice that the max flow that they advertise (360 l/h ) is available with a head of more than 3000mm h2o while usually wc pump manufacturer advertise max flow with a head pressure of 0 mm!!!
Ps: the guy i talked with is not a random guy but he is the guy who directs Ybris Cooling, an italian watercooling company.

[Grinchy]

@ fgw : The pump when running with no restrictive loads will be indeed noisy due to rotor cavitation to become silent as soon as it is put in a loop . One of the features that i have read about is the silent operation....
To avoid this phenomenon it is advised to run it in restrictive loops or to use a voltage regulation or a faucet.
Anyway to avoid cavitation when running with no blocks/rad in the loop, pump can be run vertically with the inlet facing upwards.
@ pokipoki : the 65 $ pump you are talking about is indeed a reconditioned 800$ pump running at 24 volt....8 gpm at 60 psi!!!!!
Could you put links, in your thread, to 12 volt pumps?

[Grinchy]

i found this pump in Italy sold for about 110 € . This is the definitive pump for Mo-ra radiators with number of blocks >=4 :)

[Grinchy]

This is a very reliable sound test of Sanso PDH 054 compared to DD cpx pro/ ek dcp 4.0 /ocz 800 (the last three are all the same pump).
http://www.pcsilenzioso.it/forum/showthread.php?t=12105

They didn't make a test with the sanso in vertical position though...many users reported that the pump becomes noticeably more silent in such position.
Anyway cpx pro is well known to be quite a silent pump and sanso is not tragically louder...

This is a noise comparison with both pumps being suspended (not laying on a surface)

Suspended Sanso noise
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii172/francisyo12/a92102b9.jpg

Suspended Ocz 800 noise
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii172/francisyo12/1eb9f99c.jpg


In the sanso graph there are spikes in the high frequencies that are more likely to be the annoying ones during use. High freq are the pitching and low freq the vibrating ones....so indeed the sanso is more vibrating and pitching ,but the difference is not dramatic, also considering the 20 feet of head difference....
If you want to know the details of the testing methodology give it a read,it is very interesting. This guy definitely knows what he 's doing...this is not really the average videocam sound test that you can find on youtube.

[Martinm210]

This does look like a promising pump..wish they ran some video comparisons for sound recording.

[Grinchy]

The graph that you can see above is much more reliable than a sound test made with a video because it captures in a measurable way the various frequencies response . A videocam always distorcts sounds and different videocams make different distortions since their microphones are different, other than very low quality.
Then there is the distortion given by speakers that you use to listen to th recording (some play louder high,some louder basses...)
Sounds was captured at 3 " distance and then the frequency response was corrected to represent the timbre of the sound that you would perceive at 1 meter of distance (3.3 ' ) using the mixer that you see in the pic .
This correction was performed by a phonic so we can have a sufficient warranty that it was performed reliably but again listening to a sound could be deceiving since you should listen to it at the right volume with the proper speakers.

edit : Unfortunately the wav files are gone so it is not possible anymore to hear ,but fortunately there are the graphs of the original recordings...
Given that there was not calibration with background noise DB level are not meaningful ,yet graphs are very valuable to see which frequencies are louder in the timbre of the sound and also for comparisons purposes with a well known pump.
These are the devices used to capture the sound of the pumps

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii172/francisyo12/399a2f1a.jpg

[Martinm210]

This graph that you can see is much more reliable than a sound test made with a video because it captures in a measurable way the noise for all the frequencies. A videocam always distorcts sounds and different videocams make different distortions since their microphones are different, other than very low quality.
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii172/francisyo12/399a2f1a.jpg

I'm aware of the microphone limitations, but how do you convert sound level (frequency snapshot in time) to sound quality?

Sound quality is user defined and includes more than a snapshot. A motor tick or vibration is a "Varibable" frequency or rythm which people find unpleasant. That is not quantifiable by one chart. Also I'm personally not sure if low or high frequencies are necessary better or worse. Low frequencies travel distances better so you might argue that Low Frequency = bad, or as you suggested the higher pitch may be irritating. Perhaps smooth sound is not defined by one or the other, perhaps its how "Smooth" or well graded the frequency curve is? I would suggest it's the "Rythm" or variability through time that probably has the greater impact.

IMHO, there is no replacement for an actual audio capture. Frequency and dB numbers are wonderful ways to look deeper than a blanket noise level, but they do not capture sound "Quality" nearly as well as a true recording. There are problems with recording too, but I think they are still a better method in conveying "Noise Quality" to the general public. Sure each microphone has limitations, but it's better than no audio recording at all. Sound and particularly noise is just far to complex to quantify with one box or chart.

Not to say I wouldn't love to have the Toy myself to play with, that's very nice....just would be even better with a complimentary audio clip..:up:

[Grinchy]

Sound is important but to discuss on common datas (we all have different ears/speakers) and to make objective observations it still is better a graph, because u can look in a measurable way to single frequencies level ,to the area of a certain set of frequencies,to spikes,and to lot of other things. You just have to be ble to readthe graph,but it is not so hard. FOr example if you think that low freq are the most annoying to you you can objectively see in the graph what is the level of this freq looking at the sub 500 hz points of the graph. If you are annoyed by higher ones you are going to compare pumps for points of axis x higher than 1 Khz.
To answer to one of your objections regarding pulsating or continuos thick/pitches/sounds, there is a place where you have to look in the graph: spikes on the temporal curve ( which unfortunately i didn't find :( ). A flat curve means a continuos noise level for the freq, spikes address you on a pulsating tone/sound/pitch/thick (some find more annoying the first ,some the second).
Anyway there is not the temporal curve for each single frequency but there is a very useful curve that can help us . It is the red one. If i didn't mistake myself on that curve on the x of that curve there is the frequency and on the y the value of maximum value that the given frequency has . If there is a big gap between the value of the red and the one of the blue it means that there are noticeabledifferences between the average and maximum noise level for that frequency,hence it is more likely that there are pulsating sounds,with a little gap it means that the noise level for that frequency does not vary much (a continuous sound).WIth a recording you really can't do this given that frequencies are translated due to distortions and often the position of the (low quality ) microphone varies durin the recording and its frequency response is continuosly varied by introducing random background noise (there is not a constant one). Also consider that a graph is always more precise than sensorial experience in the same way as a c/w curve will be always more meaningful than your hand on waterblock used like a sensor...
ANyway here is a vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhkwbCyneHQ&NR=1

[Martinm210]

Thanks!

Good stuff...looks like I completely missed the audio recordings from that site..

Update...the wav files are gone...:(

[Martinm210]

It does seem like per Buddy's videos that the pump does exhibit more perceivable noise though:

Sanso Pump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhkwbCyneHQ&NR=1

D5 Setting 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArywGIq2uzk

DDC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z541Ri87TMw

D5 Setting 4 would get my vote listening to the videos assuming they are from the same camera.

I guess if you look at the Sanso chart you can see the difference between the red/blue lines would probably represent the variability. I personally didn't like the higher pitched buzz of the Sanso. On the right side of the curve, there are some distinct bumps with a difference between red/blue.

[Grinchy]

yes Laing are more silent,but i think it is normal,we are talking about a bump in head performance that is more than double...and you are right reading the curve...there are indeed spikes on high frequencies,the good thing is that there is not a high variance so it means no annoying pulsating sounds, on the other side if you llok at low frequencies you can see thatoverall the sanso performs better besides a peak in the 80 hz freq the overall area of low freq noise levels is lower so it means that there should be less vibrating issues( those graphs are for suspended position of the pump, so an ideal positioning)... i would like to find audio datas for the pump runnin vertical position since that seems the position this pump is made to work in...anyone who finds anything post the link.
Concerning the peaks of high freq they seem to be within 2-3 db so nothing major if considering possible pulsating pitches.

Regarding the ddc 1t noise i find it quite annoying.it is too high for my tastes...seems like that unbearable whine that some capacitors do.

edit: anyway the comparison between d5/ddc and sanso is not really an apple to apple comparison...

[Tetrafluorometh]

Where can i get one? Perfect for my external setup

[Waterlogged]

I do like the numbers this pump has and it's size doesn't look to bad either, the noise it makes in that video though is unbearable. . .it sounds a little like the old AquaXtreme 50Z/MCP600 to me. :nono:

[Grinchy]

mmm the pump is quite silent for its power.... noise isn't too far from laing ones... i am not sure i understood what you meant,what sound are you talking about?
the pump is not sold in the us as far as i know. Here in Italy there are few places who sell it. ybris cooling shop , dimastech one....

[Waterlogged]

mmm the pump is quite silent for its power.... noise isn't too far from laing ones... i am not sure i understood what you meant,what sound are you talking about?
the pump is not sold in the us as far as i know. Here in Italy there are few places who sell it. ybris cooling shop , dimastech one....

Even though I worked in a machine shop for 12yrs, I still have rather good hearing and I am sensitive to some of the higher frequencies and this pump is hitting them.

[Grinchy]

yes it is true, the pump has a higher tone compared to mcp 655, but if you listen to ddc vid you may notiice that laing sound is much higher so i think that if one can bare ddc sound he will not have problems for this...

[Waterlogged]

yes it is true, the pump has a higher tone compared to mcp 655, but if you listen to ddc vid you may notiice that laing sound is much higher so i think that if one can bare ddc sound he will not have problems for this...

DDC's are all I use and non of them sound like they do in Bundy's videos. In fact, Bundy's DDC's vids are just loud, I'm not hearing any of the freq's that bother me in them but I do hear them in the Sanso vid.

[Alexandr0s]

Though video's are probably the only way to show how the pumps sound, I still don't like them, mainly because video recordings usually distort audio. Even if they don't, your speakers do. The best and probably only way to know for sure how it sounds is to hear it in person.

[Grinchy]

Though video's are probably the only way to show how the pumps sound, I still don't like them, mainly because video recordings usually distort audio. Even if they don't, your speakers do. The best and probably only way to know for sure how it sounds is to hear it in person.

I still like graphs recorded with professional devices...once i "see" the sound and all of its components i can also hear it better :)
Youtube vids are for evaluation only but to me they are more deceiving than informative...
You notice more things of a sound after having studied its frequency response graph and depending upon the resolution of the graph you can get to have a very precise idea of how it will be the sound if you know how to read it properly...

[bundymania]

I´ve got the 24V Sanso Pump :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tnQ4UuGlMQ