Picking a Subwoofer

[Nanometer]

I'm adding another subwoofer to my theater and I'm looking for something that has a strong low end. I'ved ruled out getting anything other then a 12" since I already have two 10's. I'm looking to stay in the 500 dollar range. Though I am picky, and looks are definitely important to me.

So far I've lined up the following, but I would love more suggestions!:

Velodyne DEQ-12R
Klipsch RW-12D
Polk Audio PSW 600

Like I said, I have 2 subs already, but they do not fill the low end of the spectrum well enough. That and they don't provide enough power anyways..

[YukonTrooper]

A little over $500, at least new and direct, but one of the best: http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm

You could also sell your current units and add to your budget and spring for a cylindrical sub.

[jason str]

Too bad you are not closer, i would offer my Tuba HT for some cash and trade.

If you have some woodworking experience i would recommend one of the Tuba designs, they offer much lower distortion than direct radiator models + the HT model will blow away 2 or more top of the line SVS models but remember it is a biggin.

I have heard many so called high end subs and most are overrated and way too expensive for what you get in the end.

In that price range i recommend the 12" kit from Parts Express, great for music and home theater if you don't mind throwing a few screws in. :yepp:
<Here> (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-742)

[Nanometer]

Yes, Ive seen some of those tuba kits and they are hugely impressive as long as their size. I would love something like that, but I've gpt tp be able to fit in my car haha. Do you really think though that the Dayton setup is any good? I could piece together a decent subwoofer myself as long as I had a box(not really looking to make my own at the current time). The reason I wasn't so crazy about the dayton case is that it's rather bland and plain looking. It isn't bad, but it certainly looks cheap in my opinion though.

Also that SVsound woofer does seem pretty nice, but for 600 bucks I would of expected a little more then 300 watts though. It does have a nice range across 400 to 20 hz, but it only does it at about 93 Db, some nicer units push 100 easy. It is also pretty big, that must be why the curve is so flat..

[jason str]

Don't rely on watts or claims made by the manufactures, most fudge their claims.

If you need pretty just buy the electronics then build and finish yourself, you get much more for your $$$. Its just a box, glue and some of your time.

The Dayton kits offer very impressive sound though i admit they do not look fancy.

[STEvil]

You could build a 1/4 wave T-line.. almost as good as a horn and saves a bit on size. They play real well on minimal power and love a driver that can move.

[Soulburner]

Go with a cylinder from SVS...you won't be disappointed!

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pc12_nsd.cfm

Outperforms almost everything twice its price.

[YukonTrooper]

Also that SVsound woofer does seem pretty nice, but for 600 bucks I would of expected a little more then 300 watts though. It does have a nice range across 400 to 20 hz, but it only does it at about 93 Db, some nicer units push 100 easy. It is also pretty big, that must be why the curve is so flat..
As Jason says, many manufacturers mess with claims. With SVS you're getting no bull, there's no middleman and you order direct from the factory. They're a great company to deal with and know their stuff. My vote for SVS stands. :up:

[Nanometer]

Those units are nice, but would it not be an issue if the room is really big? It's 9 feet high, and the family room is basically completely open into the dining room and kitchen. 30 by 30 feet, then towards the back the last 15 feet open completely into the dining room and then completely open into the living room. Very open haha. I like how the SVS put quality on top of their list. Good quality parts and they take pride in their products finish.

[STEvil]

SVS?

Good box, good sub, HORRIBLE bash amplifier.. just look at this tripe:


BASH® can produce high power levels without cost penalties typically associated with conventional amplifier designs. A linear amplifier rated at 100 Watts should be able to deliver 20 Watts continuously. If the same amplifier is to play musical transients that are 10dB louder than its rated power, the amplifier must be able to deliver 1000 watts dynamically. To deliver such dynamic power would require the internal power supply rails to be 300% higher, and the resulting power dissipated at 20 watts output to be 350% higher resulting in increases to heat sinks, power transformer, bulk capacitors, output devices and ultimately increases the cost.

You can build that SVS unit for dirt cheap.

Get a chunk of sono-tube and two MDF or plywood ends and a 4" Aero Port, sub, and amp from partsexpress.com and you're done.

Oh, here's some awesome cheap subs that will beat out the SVS unit probably: http://www.diycable.com/main/default.php?cPath=24&Cid=68c62d51ec4437f59ebd81ae111ee3ee

edit - port materials at diycable.com are dirt cheap too..

[Soulburner]

"Probably" doesn't sound too certain. Every single owner of an SVS sub says they are what they claim to be. They destroy all subs costing 2x as much.

I can't argue with them? Say what you will about the amp, but that's the first time I've heard it. It seems to be working very well.

[Kallenator]

We have one of the smallest SVS subs in our home cinema, 10", don't remember the exact name.
It works great, especially considering the price. The only thing it lacks to be perfect is more power.

[ripken204]

please do show evidence of what you are saying about the amp.
i have considered an SVS system and would like to know, i will still probably buy SVS anyways.

[jason str]

If companies offered frequency response charts, max XPL and THD levels and not just one or the other if any it would be easier to decipher one to another.

Those SVS models are good but not great offerings for the price especially if you include DIY.

[Nanometer]

Thanks for the suggestions :) What do you guys think of the CSX-15 and the big 15" from velodyne?

[Soulburner]

At AVS Forums it often comes down to SVS vs ED. And for the money SVS wins. Both are great though.

[STEvil]

"Probably" doesn't sound too certain. Every single owner of an SVS sub says they are what they claim to be. They destroy all subs costing 2x as much.


I can't argue with them? Say what you will about the amp, but that's the first time I've heard it. It seems to be working very well.

First and foremost the box (in this case a sonotube) is what makes them good.

Secondly the driver looks to have a decent amount of excursion which will help to create a flat response to lower frequencies.

Given the driver likely being a single-spider unit (or two softer ones) it wont take much power to get it moving, so unless someone clamps the amp to see the actual power being used, its probably not seeing more than 300w RMS.


please do show evidence of what you are saying about the amp.
i have considered an SVS system and would like to know, i will still probably buy SVS anyways.

From the SVS link:

3.15A @ 120v = 378w maximum input power.

Give it the benefit of the doubt and say its 75% power efficient (most are 70% at best), and that means you can get a maximum power output of 283.75w..

http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/pc12_nsd_amp_500.jpg

I think it would be interesting to clamp one. If they were as efficient as they say, then why are we not using BASH based mosfets in our PC's?

[Soulburner]

At the end of the day though it comes down to its performance and not the numbers right?

[BlackUp]

SVS or ED is the way to go


here is the ED in your range :drool:
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=681

[BlackUp]

This is alittle old but craigsub seems to be very well respected in his testing of subwoofers:
http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11

[STEvil]

At the end of the day though it comes down to its performance and not the numbers right?

"If they were as efficient as they say, then why are we not using BASH based mosfets in our PC's?"

The BASH amplifiers perform fine, they just make outrageous claims is all.

edit - eD subwoofers are awesome, just have to be careful with some models as they can tear the spider(s) at high excursion. 13 av2 was bad for that iirc...

[Nanometer]

Opinion on the Velodyne 15 inch sub? I've heard good things, but does it lag at all? Only reason I don't want a 15 is because I've heard anything bigger then a 12 will lag, specifically for music.

[STEvil]

People who say "big subs are laggy" are just showing you how little they know.

Larger drivers can have a lower resonant frequency and/or a higher peak roll-off rate, but the top frequency they can produce to a flat scale is (assuming a decent driver) as high as any other, and that point is well above what you want a subwoofer to produce anyways.

Most important part of the subwoofer system: the box you put it in.

[Nanometer]

This is the sub I was looking at, there's several 15s offered by Velodyne.http://www.velodyne.com/vproducts/series.aspx?seriesid=1203

[TV Addict#2]

I have a 2006 model svs ultra/2,two days later a cracked window pane and a thud to the chest proved to me how powerful this bass is
the cannon shots in master and commander was the source

[STEvil]

honestly I think velodyne is overpriced.. the svs unit would do better.

[BlackUp]

If you want more opinions you should post at an audio enthusiast forum like audioholics.com or avsforum.com
I'm quite sure they will steer you well. Also, has you budget increased to $1000? It looks like that is what the DEQ-15r runs.

Here is a review: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/velodyne-deq-15r

By the time you pay shipping on that bad boy you could just get 2 15"s http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=618&osCsid=802232df125f321621bab57cd40f0cdd
or one 18": http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=656
eD does free shipping.


See this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1246684

[jason str]

There's a fancy Polk Audio sub with features galore at Newegg, if that amp is 1200 continuous watts the amp itself is worth the price.

Specs say almost 12" x 12" x 12" in size and the amp takes up the whole back.
http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/dsw/#dswmicropro2000

Polk Audio 1200 watt sub
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290134

[STEvil]

http://altechsecurity.com/dsw2k.htm

1200w continuous? MY ASS.

6.3A @ 120v. Thats 756w at maximum, not even calculating efficiencies.



Its probably not a bad driver or amp, and the passive radiator looks ok (not sure why they fluid-coupled it).. but i'd say SVS is better.

[jason str]

Good catch, figured it was too good to be true.

[Bobsama]

(not sure why they fluid-coupled it)..
That's effectively Polk's way. Their SDA series (mid-80s to about '91) uses entirely (or almost entirely) fluid-coupled passive radiators. I have a pair of Polk SDA-1's out in the living room with a 12" fluid-coupled passive radiator driven by a pair of 6.5" woofers. Bass extension is surprising, to say the least. Taking a look at the DSW Micro Pro, if it can reach 27hz, it's probably pretty decent. It's very tough to find full-range loudspeakers or subwoofers that extend to or below 20hz (@ -3dB).

Is a Velodyne DEQ-15R out of budget for you? I think they're about $700-800 new (lists on Amazon for $750 or so).

[Nanometer]

That is a good catch. Sending 1200 to a single 8 inch speaker sounds like a joke anyways. And if that was 1200 watts, I could only imagine the distortion it would bring with it at those levels. A lot of the manufactures fud up the ratings. I usually like to base the power from the amplifier draw. Saw the power supply eat 1000 watts, I assume 75 percent efficiency and call it a 700 to 750 watt efficient amp. If their rating is at or far from that, I know they are mistaken and quite honest, misleading.

The velodyne isn't really out of the budget, it's just what I think I should be spending on a subwoofer. I'm definitely not shelling out a grand on a single sub, when the rest of my combined sound system cost less then 2 grand. Looks and build quality is important to me. If the subwoofer looks like it was designed in someone's garage, then I'm not paying 700 for it. If it looks like the subwoofer was rendered first and pride was taken into building the unit, then I believe it's worth it. It's like buying an ugly fast car, and we already have a manufacturer for that(Chrysler XLR).

[Bobsama]

1200W to an 8" speaker? Yeah a bit of a joke. However, it depends on the woofer's efficiency and sensitivity. That Polk DSW sub has an active driver and a passive radiator. As you probably already know, a passive radiator system is sometimes known as "2.5"-way speakers. It's a variation of bass reflex, using the passive radiator to block any backtones and reproduce the vibrations in the air. Net effect of this should be more bass extension, though cabinet properties are modified. The passive radiator will resonate; weighting it differently may change the resonance frequency to a point that won't hinder or cause any undue spikes in frequency response.

If you can find a used Velodyne sub with a digital servo, jump on it. You may need two to fill a large room or if you want bass balanced left to right.

Velodyne's finest current units are the Digital Drive series. I've heard an older Velodyne sub with the digital servo and they are fantastic for movies. The issue I've found is that bass quality is usually the most expensive and difficult bit of any sub-sat system. If your system is more towards music, Velodyne subs are less musical than some alternatives. You may be more interested in a pair of vintage loudspeakers if your system is more based towards music. Most vintage loudspeakers end up being better for the money than a brand new setup. However, you may need to repair them and may want to upgrade them. Something like a venerable pair of Polk SDA-1B's or SDA-1C's often come in good-excellent condition. Still, four replacement tweeters from Polk cost ~$200 and rebuilding the crossover can be expensive as well. The most popular SDA tweeters; the SL2000 tweeters, have a problem with a ~14kHz; they hit +7dB at about that point iirc. Replacing them is a night-and-day difference, as the replacement tweeters are much newer and more refined. Then if you want a better look, you could spend a LOT of time and money replacing the solid wood veneer and speaker cloth.

[STEvil]

What part of the passive radiator is fluid-coupled is what I want to know.. there's no coil in a passive radiator so the only thing they could have done is weighted the diaphram with some kind of fluid really.. which is pointless and just goes to show they're marketing to audiophools.. I hate that word btw.

[Bobsama]

What part of the passive radiator is fluid-coupled is what I want to know.. there's no coil in a passive radiator so the only thing they could have done is weighted the diaphram with some kind of fluid really.. which is pointless and just goes to show they're marketing to audiophools.. I hate that word btw.

It's weighting and balancing the passive radiator. Resonance by mass and material is well-known. I've got to make some small changes to my SDA-1's and I'll take a picture then. I don't know about the DSW's, though. You are partially right though; higher-end products mean higher prices, regardless of the material cost. Polk sells to the downmarket and midmarket "audiophiles". They always have.

[STEvil]

You dont need fluid to weight a passive diaphram..

[Donnie27]

If the correct phase on the Sub and Crossover used, your sounds will come from where the sound track places it. THX calls for 80Hz but that's just a baseline. Mine is set to 70Hz and folks think my mains are making low notes because bass seems to still originate from them. I had to switch off the Sub to convince them otherwise.


You dont need fluid to weight a passive diaphram..

Agreed!


It's a variation of bass reflex, using the passive radiator to block any backtones and reproduce the vibrations in the air. Net effect of this should be more bass extension, though cabinet properties are modified. The passive radiator will resonate; weighting it differently may change the resonance frequency to a point that won't hinder or cause any undue spikes in frequency response.


That's why I'd give up or trade SPL/Volume for accuracy with Sealed enclosures. Though I have both ported and vented Subs. My favorite
Mains Fisher 9v and Optimus Mach 1's are sealed for Stereo music playback.


""It's very tough to find full-range loudspeakers or subwoofers that extend to or below 20hz (@ -3dB)."

Full range yes probably impossible, Subs? Not really! The problem ain't reaching 20Hz or lower, it's at what Volume level or SPL you want with that low freq. One of the guys here posted Pipe Organs playing notes as low as 10Hz, it will give the biggest and best Subs a work-out. It showed a friend just how much Snake-oil he bought! A guy at Best Buy showing of Klipsch Subs quickly removed the disk I'd made. Both my JBL and my DIYer can play it a moderate levels, the BB guys couldn't play it above normal voice levels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iJIN9H-gmQ&feature=related

That said. Polk does make good stuff. They used to make even better products in the past. I got two Polk Woofers from a clearance place on EBay.
They sounded so good, I went back for more. The other 48 sold in 48 hrs.:(
These babies are 8" Woofers that hold a nice volume level at even 26Hz while the 1970's version of the Bose Tweeter Mid-range Plays from about 4500Hz to 25Khz crossed-over with an Optimus Two-Way crossover. Of all the speakers, these impressed folks the most!

Cabinet software is free at Madisound and they helped me with Speaker specs. The guy there also said, "I have similar ones from Polk"!

[AmiJIm]

I would buy a second klipsch .I have a set up with two subwoofers and feels great!