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View Full Version : What pump for "ouf of case" loop (and a couple other questions)?



Red Maw
04-17-2010, 06:27 PM
I'm planning an 'out of case' WC loop for my i7 930, so far it looks like:

XSPC RX360x1
EK-Supreme HF
Gentle Typhoon AP-15 (push/pull) - if I can find them
Primochill Typhoon III (tentative; also depends on pump)
JIC stainless steel compression fittings - (if don't already have them they don't appear to cost anymore than BP stuff and are much more reliable afaik)
Food grade tubing (either 1/2" or 3/4") - free, not sure I can use it for this though
Pump ???
Res - can probably scrounge something up if I need one

Easy question first, I don't think there would be any problems using food grade tubing/hose but I want to be sure so what do you guy's think? Even if tubing is dirt cheap there's no point in buying something you already have.

Now the hard question, what pump to use. Since this is an out of case loop it would be much better to use a AC pump rather than a DC powered one (for obviouse reasons), and it needs to be fairly powerful since it's going to need to push through ~10ft loop with a ~3.5ft elevation gain (system on top of desk, pump/res under desk). Using the spreedsheet Andrea made two MCP655 pumps or one RD-30 are able to get just above 2gpm. Cost wise the RD-30 is cheaper due to the added cost of tops for the MCP655's, although two pumps would enable me to do 2 loops some day if I make smaller loops. Finding a powerful, quiet pump has me at a loss, I can't seem to find anything; any suggestions?

Does adding flow and thermal sensors cause any performance drop or is their presence negligible?

TIA,

redamw

overclocking101
04-17-2010, 07:13 PM
RD-30 for sure, you will need a auxilary PSU but I would rather have one uber good pump then to stress 2 other pumps. dont get me wrong D5's are great for interior loops, but I have ran them in a exterior box loop and it was loosing flow all over the place, not a huge affect on temps but one was there

Church
04-18-2010, 12:29 AM
I'd use RD30 only if it would be placed in some other room. Imho i'm not the only one that values in LC relative silence aswell.

Waterlogged
04-18-2010, 01:29 AM
If you want RD-30 performance without the extra requirements, look into dual DDC 3.25's.

AmiJIm
04-18-2010, 02:23 AM
First.Spend some more dollars on silicon tubes.Plain PVC ones break easily after long period use and looses it clear free view.Also silicon based turn in loops without breaking the ciircular tube shape .The drawback is that the silicon is more valnerable to organical polution of the in line water and thus you will need anti polution additives.Best bet would be an antifreezer coolant from automotive industry.

second.
I have used successfully fountain pumps found at any acme shop.

Church
04-18-2010, 02:51 AM
Yeah. I wonder though why most of guys with very long LC experience usually go back to distilled? Probably facts that water better transfers heat or that it's less chemically agressive, or that no additives - less possibility to leave residue/gunk on wb micropins/tubing walls, or that it's simply cheapest coolant, or that antifreeze is not always non conductive for loops with aluminum, or that experienced never use aluminium components in first place, or that most will never need main antifreeze's property of being usable in -20C temps .. but yeah, antifreeze the best! [/irony]

millertime359
04-18-2010, 06:16 AM
I'm not certain why you want to use the T3 out of the case. The design was set so that you could house the pump and res in the drive bays and not worry about taking up a ton of space.

I wouldn't get a T3 for a while anyways. The new revision is just hitting the streets and there still hasn't been any solid information on if they cracking issues have been solved.

+1 on Water though. You can always lengthen that power cable and run it to the main PSU, or just get a cheap 300W PSU and use that to power the pumps.

If you want to have the pump and res combo, you can look into the EK dual DDC top with a EK Multilink with one of their tube res.

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt293/millertime359/P1000547.jpg

brammers
04-18-2010, 02:48 PM
+1 on the dual DDCs.

Getting power out is easy - I used some "twin+earth" lighting flex to extend a Molex connector out to my radbox (the cores are rated for 240v so are nice and thick - less change of a voltage drop). I then used a breakout cable (molex male to 4 molex female) to power the pumps and fan controller once inside the radbox.

That way I have the 12v, 5v and 0v rails to play with.

J

Red Maw
04-18-2010, 02:53 PM
Thanks for the reply's :)


RD-30 for sure, you will need a auxilary PSU but I would rather have one uber good pump then to stress 2 other pumps. dont get me wrong D5's are great for interior loops, but I have ran them in a exterior box loop and it was loosing flow all over the place, not a huge affect on temps but one was there

Thanks mate, I was thinking the along the same lines but. . .


I'd use RD30 only if it would be placed in some other room. Imho i'm not the only one that values in LC relative silence aswell.

. . .I thought the pump was fairly quiet. Going to try and dig up some sound clips of these pumps to try and get a feel for their noise since I also value quietness of WC. So you say a RD-30 would be louder than 2xDDC 3.25?


If you want RD-30 performance without the extra requirements, look into dual DDC 3.25's.

Could I put a XSPC Laing DDC Top on one and the XSPC Acrylic Reservoir DDC Top on the other? Or maybe just use a separate res, simple and not that hard.


First.Spend some more dollars on silicon tubes.Plain PVC ones break easily after long period use and looses it clear free view.Also silicon based turn in loops without breaking the ciircular tube shape .The drawback is that the silicon is more valnerable to organical polution of the in line water and thus you will need anti polution additives.Best bet would be an antifreezer coolant from automotive industry.

second.
I have used successfully fountain pumps found at any acme shop.

Okay I'll buy the silicon tubing, not worried about the cost (of the tubing). I was planning on using water with either PT nuke (pretty sure it can be found at the local petsmart for 5$ lol) or silver kill coils.

How loud are the fountain pumps though? I was thinking of that but am afraid of the noise since fountain pumps usually aren't used where they can be heard.


Yeah. I wonder though why most of guys with very long LC experience usually go back to distilled? Probably facts that water better transfers heat or that it's less chemically agressive, or that no additives - less possibility to leave residue/gunk on wb micropins/tubing walls, or that it's simply cheapest coolant, or that antifreeze is not always non conductive for loops with aluminum, or that experienced never use aluminium components in first place, or that most will never need main antifreeze's property of being usable in -20C temps .. but yeah, antifreeze the best! [/irony]

To be honest I don't know anything about antifreeze for LC but I'm not ready to worry about it's bad properties as well as it's good ones right now; don't fix what isn't broken ;)


I'm not certain why you want to use the T3 out of the case. The design was set so that you could house the pump and res in the drive bays and not worry about taking up a ton of space.

I wouldn't get a T3 for a while anyways. The new revision is just hitting the streets and there still hasn't been any solid information on if they cracking issues have been solved.

+1 on Water though. You can always lengthen that power cable and run it to the main PSU, or just get a cheap 300W PSU and use that to power the pumps.

If you want to have the pump and res combo, you can look into the EK dual DDC top with a EK Multilink with one of their tube res.

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt293/millertime359/P1000547.jpg

I was looking at the T3 because of it's ability to split the flow between two loops fairly well, not something I'll probably need though. Thanks for reminding me about the cracking issue, wrote myself a note to go look into that but it seems to have gone missing lol. The reason this is an out of case loop is that I don't think all this will fit inside the case since I've filled all but two 3.25" bays lol. I'll take a second look, I might be able to put the rad where the intake fans are, assuming there will be good airflow behind the rad it should work, and pumps/res on top of the psu and behind it (psu is at bottom of case). I don't want to impact ability of the case to cool the rest of the components though because they will remain air cooled, water blocks are just too expensive.

btw will a single RX360 be able to handle an OC 930 in a hot environment (~32C ambient)? Regardless two DDC3.25's should be able to handle another RX360 if needed.

TIA

redmaw

Church
04-19-2010, 02:45 AM
yup, 3x120 rad should be able to handle cooling of i7 o/c to 4+GHz. Even with rather quiet fans.

alacheesu
04-19-2010, 07:45 AM
For the system you're describing, you don't need a more powerful pump than what is usually recommended. A regular DDC 3.2 or D5 is fine. I took some pressure drop numbers from Martin's old flow rate estimator (all at 2gpm):

EK Supreme: ~4.25PSI
MCR320: ~1.7PSI
10ft of 1/2" tubing: ~1.8PSI

What this means is that adding 10ft of 1/2" tubing to a loop has about the same effect on flow as adding an extra radiator. Nobody would tell you to use 2 pumps if your system had 2 radiators, so I don't see why you need 2 pumps with a few extra feet of tubing.

The extra elevation doesn't require any extra pumping power either. In a closed loop, there's no net effect from gravity. That is, the water goes up exactly the same distance it goes down, so no energy is lost due to gravity.

You can still run 2 pumps, of course. I just don't think it's a requirement.

Red Maw
04-19-2010, 01:49 PM
I was thinking along those lines at first but went with what the flow rate calculator said since I was never any good at fluid dynamics lol. Maybe I'll start with one pump and add another if needed, not that having two pumps would ever be a problem :D

So which pump is better, D5 or DDC 3.25? All I can on the net is conflicting advice :\

TIA,

redmaw

alacheesu
04-20-2010, 12:34 AM
I was thinking along those lines at first but went with what the flow rate calculator said since I was never any good at fluid dynamics lol.
Did the flow rate calculator show a big difference in flow rate when you added a few feet of tubing? It really shouldn't. Anyway, as long as you're above ~1gpm most will say you're fine.


Maybe I'll start with one pump and add another if needed, not that having two pumps would ever be a problem :D
That sounds like a good idea to me. I'm pretty sure it will work fine. 2 pumps is probably better (and louder), but the question is how much better. You can take a look at Vapor's testing here (http://skinneelabs.com/ek-supreme-hf.html?page=4) and see what a second pump really does for water block performance. In his particular setup, the difference was not even 1C with a second pump. It's up to you if you feel a difference of that magnitude is worth the price (and noise) of a second pump.


So which pump is better, D5 or DDC 3.25? All I can on the net is conflicting advice :\
The "problem" is both the DDC (with after market top) and D5 are very good pumps that give almost the same performance in most situations. There's no clear winner, which is why you'll mostly find conflicting advice. There are small differences (DDC is smaller, D5-Vario has speed adjustment etc), but you can't go wrong with either.

Church
04-20-2010, 12:45 AM
Main choice between DDC 3.25 & D5 should be made by how restrictive loop with this pump will be. Lots of waterblocks in it = better DDC with it's higher head pressure, few of them = better D5 with it's more flow. Though both will do even in not most favourable conditions for them in common LC setups.
Both have pros and cons. D5 more silent & with speed control, DDC=smaller (easier to mount), consumes less power (less power requirements from fan/pump controller) and dumps less heat.

alacheesu
04-20-2010, 05:04 AM
Main choice between DDC 3.25 & D5 should be made by how restrictive loop with this pump will be. Lots of waterblocks in it = better DDC with it's higher head pressure, few of them = better D5 with it's more flow.

DDC3.2 with a good top is actually virtually always better than a D5. While it's true that the D5 eventually overtakes the DDC in low restriction situations, this happens in a range you'll never see in 99% of water cooling setups (above 4gpm or so).

I base this on the P/Q curves for the D5 here (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=170217) and DDC3.2 tops here (http://martin.skinneelabs.com/DDC32PumpTopTesting.html). (Credit to martinm210 for both)

Vinas
04-20-2010, 06:36 AM
. . .I thought the pump was fairly quiet. Going to try and dig up some sound clips of these pumps to try and get a feel for their noise since I also value quietness of WC. So you say a RD-30 would be louder than 2xDDC 3.25?Since it pushes 30' of head pressure. The RD-30 should give you really nice performance in a restrictive loop. That is more than double the head than most pumps are able to achieve. :up:

Also, there are many AC 120 pumps available. They do tend to be a little more expensive, but less expensive than the RD-30. Here's a good list from a marine shop (http://www.marinedepot.com/pumps__index-ap.html) that I buy pumps from. You might want to take a look at the pan world/blueline pumps (http://www.marinedepot.com/pumps_pan_world_magnetic_px_ps-ap.html). For example, I use the 40PX which is an entry level unit. ;)

Edit: The 40PX runs relatively silent, however if mounted on a hard surface you may hear some "hum" or vibration. For this reason mounting the pump on some rubber grommets is recommended.

Red Maw
04-20-2010, 01:31 PM
Did the flow rate calculator show a big difference in flow rate when you added a few feet of tubing? It really shouldn't. Anyway, as long as you're above ~1gpm most will say you're fine.

1 pump was 1.56gpm and 2 pumps were 2.11gpm; not a huge difference but definitely there.



Also, there are many AC 120 pumps available. They do tend to be a little more expensive, but less expensive than the RD-30. Here's a good list from a marine shop (http://www.marinedepot.com/pumps__index-ap.html) that I buy pumps from. You might want to take a look at the pan world/blueline pumps (http://www.marinedepot.com/pumps_pan_world_magnetic_px_ps-ap.html). For example, I use the 40PX which is an entry level unit. ;)

Edit: The 40PX runs relatively silent, however if mounted on a hard surface you may hear some "hum" or vibration. For this reason mounting the pump on some rubber grommets is recommended.

For now I'm planning on putting the pump(s) on soft surface in a small opening under my desk (the back, not front) so vibration won't be a problem for now. That 40PX sounds like a really good deal, significantly more powerful than the DDC/D5 and practically the same cost (much cheaper if you count tops and the psu I'd need for the DC pumps).
Only hesitation is possible noise level and the effect of hooking such a monstrous pump to small WC loop with only two elements (WB & Rad). The compression fittings I'm planning on using are rated to 3000psi iirc but I'm not sure about the rad and wb lol.

I've also heard some disconcerting things about the heat dump of those powerful AC pumps so the DDC's might still be a better option even if they're more than twice the cost.

So now I'm thinking either:

DDC 3.25:
- appears to be more versatile than the D5
- needs top and psu
- more expensive

40PX:
- monster pump, too much power for small loop :confused:
- cheaper
- possibly too much noise


TIA,

redmaw

alacheesu
04-21-2010, 06:09 AM
1 pump was 1.56gpm and 2 pumps were 2.11gpm; not a huge difference but definitely there.
With those numbers I'd definitely go with 1 pump. Going from 1.56gpm to 2.11gpm won't give you better temps or better overclocks. Going from 0.56gpm to 1.11gpm would, but above 1.5gpm you see very little improvement. Martinm210 wrote a great little piece on flow rate that you can find here (http://martin.skinneelabs.com/MartinsFlowRateEstimator.html). (scroll down to "How much flow rate is enough?"). It's worth a read, imo.

Red Maw
04-21-2010, 01:40 PM
Good read, thanks for the link.

At this point I've pretty much decided to get one DDC (or two if needed, will be decided after setting the loop up) for simplicity. From what I could tell a single rad can't offset the extra heat dumped by the bigger pumps so it would be less effective at cooling despite the increased flow. Plus if the DDC doesn't work out I can't imagine having an extra pump would ever be a problem ;)

Big thanks to everyone who helped me :up:

Squall_DA
04-22-2010, 04:58 PM
One DDC should be plenty i went with two because i wasn't sure what my flow rates would be and i definitely could have got by with one. I thought about going with an AC pump but then you have to worry about turning it on and off with the computer where with a dc pump its is powered with the computer so it is much easier

Red Maw
06-11-2010, 07:19 PM
I finally got around to setting up the loop for a test to see what the flow rate would be like and unfortunately it was dismal. A single DDC3.25 is only getting a~ .75gpm, about half of what my minimum goal was :(

Should I ditch the DDC and go for a bigger pump or try adding another ddc somewhere in my loop?

TIA,

redmaw

Church
06-12-2010, 04:03 AM
Try another DDC. Dual DDCs will probably work similar to RD30, while beeing quieter. D5 with that restrictive loop will probably show even less flow.
But! Imho if even 3.25 shows such little flow with it's high head pressure, i'd rather try optimising loop somehow. Or fixing some mistakes. Scrolling back you only have one EK Supreme HF and one tripple rad in loop? Imho flow should be arround 2gpm with DDC. Check tubing for kinks, or if waterblock inlet & outlet is not mixed up, or if flowmeter is properly calibrated, or if you are providing full 12V to pump or have turned voltage down with some rheostat or molex wire voltage mod or other alike mistakes ..

Waterlogged
06-12-2010, 04:13 AM
Well, I did recommend dual DDC 3.25's in post #4. . .but churchy is right, you got some kind problem for that loop to only have that much flow. Did you sleeve the pump, get the wires mixed up? That's probably the easiest problem to diagnose/fix without any pics. To be of any further help we need some clear pics of the entire loop.

imersa
06-12-2010, 06:25 AM
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt293/millertime359/P1000547.jpg

That looks stunning, I may have to order something similar.

Red Maw
06-12-2010, 02:15 PM
Well, I did recommend dual DDC 3.25's in post #4. . .but churchy is right, you got some kind problem for that loop to only have that much flow. Did you sleeve the pump, get the wires mixed up? That's probably the easiest problem to diagnose/fix without any pics. To be of any further help we need some clear pics of the entire loop.


Try another DDC. Dual DDCs will probably work similar to RD30, while beeing quieter. D5 with that restrictive loop will probably show even less flow.
But! Imho if even 3.25 shows such little flow with it's high head pressure, i'd rather try optimising loop somehow. Or fixing some mistakes. Scrolling back you only have one EK Supreme HF and one tripple rad in loop? Imho flow should be arround 2gpm with DDC. Check tubing for kinks, or if waterblock inlet & outlet is not mixed up, or if flowmeter is properly calibrated, or if you are providing full 12V to pump or have turned voltage down with some rheostat or molex wire voltage mod or other alike mistakes ..

Waterlogged, yes you did but I wanted to see how one DDC would perform before investing in a second.

The pump is connected via the 4pin molex directly to the power supply so I highly doubt there's a power problem and there were no kinks in the tubing. Because I was afraid a single DDC wasn't going to be enough I set the loop up outside of the case to run the flow rate test, which might have been part of the problem since I left the extra tubing coiled up to save space. It didn't occur to me at the time but leaving it coiled up probably had a negative impact on flow rate.

I've already put the wb away but it was setup pretty much like this with the wb where the gap is. I should probably do it again with how it will be setup in the end but if it doesn't work my system will be down until it does.
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3742/img0694o.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/img0694o.jpg/)

eXa
06-12-2010, 02:20 PM
how about MD-20/30RZ?

Church
06-12-2010, 02:27 PM
If components are as in post #1 - XSPC tripple rad & EK Supreme HF, .75gpm is definitely 2-3 times less then single DDC 3.25 is capable of. Post pics of your setup, maybe someone will notice what's wrong. BTW, you haven't tried to use 'blank' plate in HF? And are you monitoring rpm-s of your pump?
eXa: why would he need in unrestrictive loop monster pump which is very noisy, power hungry, dumping lot of heat by itself and requiering extra psu for it to provide 24V?

Red Maw
06-12-2010, 04:03 PM
how about MD-20/30RZ?

I've considered those types of pumps but right now I don't want to deal with the large heat dump from them.


If components are as in post #1 - XSPC tripple rad & EK Supreme HF, .75gpm is definitely 2-3 times less then single DDC 3.25 is capable of. Post pics of your setup, maybe someone will notice what's wrong. BTW, you haven't tried to use 'blank' plate in HF? And are you monitoring rpm-s of your pump?


The final setup will be pretty much like the picture in my previous post except the wb will be in my case (obviously) which is directly above everything else in the picture. The wb has the plate that it came with already installed (the one with two slits, #1 I think).

Waterlogged
06-12-2010, 04:13 PM
Waterlogged, yes you did but I wanted to see how one DDC would perform before investing in a second.

The pump is connected via the 4pin molex directly to the power supply so I highly doubt there's a power problem and there were no kinks in the tubing. Because I was afraid a single DDC wasn't going to be enough I set the loop up outside of the case to run the flow rate test, which might have been part of the problem since I left the extra tubing coiled up to save space. It didn't occur to me at the time but leaving it coiled up probably had a negative impact on flow rate.

I've already put the wb away but it was setup pretty much like this with the wb where the gap is. I should probably do it again with how it will be setup in the end but if it doesn't work my system will be down until it does.
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3742/img0694o.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/img0694o.jpg/)

OK, so no sleeving. . .so that rules out mixed up pins.

The tube length may have played a part in the low flow rate but, I'm doubtful. How are you measuring flow rate?

Just as a note to show something is wrong, I'm currently building a short loop (maybe 3' of tubing total) with a D-Tek Fuzion V2, Enzo NB, Koolance top w/integrated res on a DDC3.1 and a MCR120 and with the Koolance FM17 flow meter in the loop it was reading ~1.2/1.3GPM. You have a much more powerful pump than I do, it should be flying like a bat outta hell.

Church
06-12-2010, 04:37 PM
I couldn't spot anything wrong in that pic in quick glance. Straight barbs, thick tubing. I know that DDC should be giving more flow. And it does, even in many very restrictive builds of others. I beleave you are measuring flow by how quickly it transfers preset volume of water from that big pot by timing it? Then i'm striking out wrong measurement. You said you power pump directly from PSU molex? I'm striking out wrong/lesser voltage aswell. XSPC rads IIRC didn't need mandatory flush like Thermochills from post-production gunk. But nevertheless i'd flush rad & dissassemble HF waterblock and pump. Maybe somewhere somehow something has gunked up and generating abnormal flow resistance. You can dissassemble and clean or you can take testable components out of loop and redo flow tests for finding culprit aswell, eg. - try without HF, or without rad. None of them should drop flow to mentioned 0.75gpm. With both of them imho flow should be at least 1.5gpm, maybe even 2.
And last possibility - if pump even alone cannot show normal flow and you double checked for nothing gunked up it, you can RMA it. I repeat once more - DDC should work much better then what it does for you.

Red Maw
06-12-2010, 06:17 PM
I beleave you are measuring flow by how quickly it transfers preset volume of water from that big pot by timing it?

That is correct, I just timed how long it took to fill a 2.5 gallon container.


OK, so no sleeving. . .so that rules out mixed up pins.

The tube length may have played a part in the low flow rate but, I'm doubtful. How are you measuring flow rate?

Just as a note to show something is wrong, I'm currently building a short loop (maybe 3' of tubing total) with a D-Tek Fuzion V2, Enzo NB, Koolance top w/integrated res on a DDC3.1 and a MCR120 and with the Koolance FM17 flow meter in the loop it was reading ~1.2/1.3GPM. You have a much more powerful pump than I do, it should be flying like a bat outta hell.

There's 11ft of tubing in the current loop, but it really shouldn't make that much of a difference.

I'll do some more tests tonight and see what flow I"m getting from just tubing, tubing + HF and tubing + rad.

Waterlogged
06-12-2010, 06:32 PM
I think I have an idea for the low flow rate. It's actually 2 things that are causing it.

1. 11ft of tubing is a lot for a loop. Most ppl get 10ft and only use between 5-7 ft.

2. What you have there is more or less, an open loop. That res of yours is (I'm fairly certain of it) causing the biggest drop in pressure in your loop. In a closed loop, the pump will actually push itself a little creating a little extra pressure in the loop.

Red Maw
06-12-2010, 10:17 PM
I thought that those two would be problems too before running some tests like churchy suggested. It turns out that amount of tubing doesn't have much of any impact on the flow rate, and my open loop probably has an equal amount of pressure feeding the pump as most closed loops thanks to the amount of water stored in the res. The real culprit of my problems turns out to be the wb. I'm not sure if it's defective or if the instruction manual mixed up the in/out ports but take a look at the numbers I got from the tests. The actual amount of water pumped is approximate but it's not that approximate if you know what I mean (and if anything I filled the container less when doing to last two tests).


Elements in loop - - - - - - - - - - - - -Time to fill 2.5 gallon container
tubing - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 40s
tubing + XSPC360 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 50s
tubing + EK HF - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 225s
tubing + EK HF + XSPC360 - - - - - - - - - 225s

I find it kind of interesting on how the flow rate appears to be completely dependent on the most restrictive element.

wesley
06-12-2010, 10:38 PM
I find it kind of interesting on how the flow rate appears to be completely dependent on the most restrictive element.

hi!
good test. it's the classic idea of a bottleneck. your loop is only as fast as your slowest component. same idea for a pc setup. have you checked your block yet?
wes

Red Maw
06-13-2010, 12:47 AM
I don't have the slightest clue as to what I should be looking for with wb. Probably going to have to rma it if anything.

Waterlogged
06-13-2010, 01:33 AM
I thought that those two would be problems too before running some tests like churchy suggested. It turns out that amount of tubing doesn't have much of any impact on the flow rate, and my open loop probably has an equal amount of pressure feeding the pump as most closed loops thanks to the amount of water stored in the res. The real culprit of my problems turns out to be the wb. I'm not sure if it's defective or if the instruction manual mixed up the in/out ports but take a look at the numbers I got from the tests. The actual amount of water pumped is approximate but it's not that approximate if you know what I mean (and if anything I filled the container less when doing to last two tests).


Elements in loop - - - - - - - - - - - - -Time to fill 2.5 gallon container
tubing - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 40s
tubing + XSPC360 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 50s
tubing + EK HF - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 225s
tubing + EK HF + XSPC360 - - - - - - - - - 225s

I find it kind of interesting on how the flow rate appears to be completely dependent on the most restrictive element.

Take a measuring cup and graduate that container for 2Gal and re-time, something about those numbers doesn't look right.


. . .and yeah, welcome to flow 101. :yepp: This is why pressure rules over flow rate when choosing a pump.

eXa
06-13-2010, 04:07 AM
eXa: why would he need in unrestrictive loop monster pump which is very noisy, power hungry, dumping lot of heat by itself and requiering extra psu for it to provide 24V?

There are smaller versions too, wich has less heatdump. And they are AC pumps,
so you dont need any external psu at all, that was my point.

Church
06-13-2010, 05:12 AM
eXa: and they are more silent then DDC or D5 pumps aswell? :P
Red Maw: if DDC wouldn't capping in low restriction loop i beleave you might get even more flow with rad/tubing only, as those are not too restrictive compared to usually most restrictive liquid cooling component - cpu waterblock (well, maybe lot of individual ram blocks might be more restrictive with small cross section and lot of 90deg sharp bends). But still, DDC with HF should give better numbers. Much better numbers. Disassemble CPU waterblock, check for gunk gunked up microchannels, clean it, recheck twice if you are installing plate correctly, check if you have attached inlet/outlet right, check if you are not using very long thread fittings that might humper flow when screwed in too deep and so on ..

Red Maw
06-13-2010, 11:50 AM
Yeah those numbers have been bothering me too, but I doubt a third test will get any different results. The wb is new from EK, never used before but I can open it up and check anyway (afraid I might not get it back together properly lol). I'm going to pick up some more scrap tubing tomorrow and see what kind of flow rate I can get through the wb with minimal tubing. I'll also redo the other tests either tonight or tomorrow night with a more accurate container.

Church
06-13-2010, 02:30 PM
It's sometimes possible (if you haven't flushed from possible crap/gunk components individually before assembling) to get some stuff from one component to other (eg. from thermochill rad some unflushed postproduction dirt/soldering byproducts/etc to transfer to just bought all-new cpu waterblock that has very small micropins (or microchannels in HF case) that can be easily gunked up by that stuff resulting in unnaturally rised restriction. That's why i advised to check/clean WB aswell. Don't be scared to loose warranty because of EK sticker. As Eddy_EK has stated several times - it's only sign that WB is leak-pretested at factory, not that by removing sticker to disassemble block you can loose warranty.

Red Maw
06-13-2010, 07:19 PM
Strangely enough my wb didn't come with a sticker so I guess I've got nothing to lose lol

Church
06-13-2010, 08:06 PM
I just recall that being asked by others wanting to unscrew HF wb for eg. plate replacement, that's why i mentioned it in advance :)

Red Maw
06-14-2010, 07:46 PM
Okay I re-ran the tests with the graduated container and only 2ft. of tubing and nothing changed. I'll check the wb later tonight and I've got another DDC coming on thursday so I'll try that one first before rma'ing the wb.