For gaming: 120Hz TN or 60Hz IPS ?

[RSC]

Well, I'm looking to replace my HP w2207h with something bigger and Full HD. After much consideration, I've come down to two monitors: the Acer GD245HQ (120Hz TN - 345€) and the HP ZR24w (60Hz H-IPS - 430€). Considering the main use will be gaming, I'm leaning towards the Acer...

What do you think? Is there anything better out there at decent prices?

[zalbard]

Go for 120HZ TN if that's just gaming you're looking forward to, totally worth it. Much better response time.
Plus you can use 3D in the future.

[MrDiaz]

Once you go IPS you can't go back. That pretty much sums up how I feel about this

[RSC]

Go for 120HZ TN if that's just gaming you're looking forward to, totally worth it. Much better response time.
Plus you can use 3D in the future.

Yeah, that was pretty much my reasoning too. I'm just trying to find some feedback on the LG W2363D to decide between that one or the Acer I mentioned.




Once you go IPS you can't go back. That pretty much sums up how I feel about this

What IPS based screen do you recommend for gamming? Cause I haven't been able to found one at a decent price...

[prava]

Once you go IPS you can't go back. That pretty much sums up how I feel about this

I'm sorry mate, but this just doesn't work like that. I have an IPS an, althought I love every single bit of it its not good enough for gaming, specially for online gaming...and this is why I will probably change it for a 120hz TN. Why? Like I said...for online gaming you don't want a uber quality panel, but a damn fast one. All the other stuff is not important.

[Soulburner]

Well how big can you go? If you want the speed, but love the IQ of the IPS, there is only one solution...

42" Panasonic Plasma

[STEvil]

Whats in the Toshiba Regza line? I'm loving my 46, though it does band blacks slightly if you bump the gamma up.

[Caparroz]

I'm sorry mate, but this just doesn't work like that. I have an IPS an, althought I love every single bit of it its not good enough for gaming, specially for online gaming...and this is why I will probably change it for a 120hz TN. Why? Like I said...for online gaming you don't want a uber quality panel, but a damn fast one. All the other stuff is not important.

^^This.

It depends a lot on the kind of games you play. A "cheap" IPS panel won't be fast enough for fast-paced gaming (FPS, racing, etc.).

If you're more of a RTS, RPG gamer and so on you'll be better with an IPS screen, though.

Edit: belo avatar, RSC. Seu nick tem relação com "Racing Sim Central"?

[Soulburner]

I only mentioned 42" because they don't make them smaller :(

A 24-30" Plasma would be amazing for a PC gamer but they don't exist...most likely due to economic forces making them less competitive at those sizes.

[lowfat]

Go for the HP w/o a doubt. The input lag is nearly non existent.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1035575043#post1035575043

[Logitrust]

What do you guys think about led tv's? my self im in the marked for a $1000 gaming monitor. And regarding to the respons time, the Samsung UE32B6050 LED is down to 5ms i think. At least the LCD modells are so fast. One downside is that its just 100hz.

[lowfat]

What do you guys think about led tv's? my self im in the marked for a $1000 gaming monitor. And regarding to the respons time, the Samsung UE32B6050 LED is down to 5ms i think. At least the LCD modells are so fast. One downside is that its just 100hz.

Response time is a meaningless value. Input lag is what you need to know. However it is a value that manufacturers do not publish.

[MrDiaz]

I'm fricking tired of hearing about this lame response time and input lag, you are trying to measure such small numbers that you cannot notice them with your naked eye!


I'm sorry mate, but this just doesn't work like that. I have an IPS an, althought I love every single bit of it its not good enough for gaming, specially for online gaming...and this is why I will probably change it for a 120hz TN. Why? Like I said...for online gaming you don't want a uber quality panel, but a damn fast one. All the other stuff is not important.

Which IPS do you have? S-IPS? E-IPS? Model?

I currently have a Dell U2410 and there is nothing out there I've used that can bring me better satisfaction while playing any games. And I've used quite a few of TN panels with the "2ms gtg" response times and very low input lag. Simply, it all comes down to how GOOD the games look on an IPS screen, the colors, the brightness, the contrast is just incomparable to the TN screens, period.

[Serpentarius]

cant you guys get Plasma? regardless how high 120Hz or 200Hz, they're still yet to reach the Plasma level

the only disadvantage of Plasmas is the viewing in very bright area like office, and burn-in (unless if you're gaming tetris for straight 1 week)

[wragh]

I think the acer could be a good buy for you mate.

[koc]

If you want the best monitor for gaming you should get plazma TV
better black level , 0.1ms response time , very clear and sharp picture and more...
just check the panasonic G15 or G25 plazma TVs .

[RSC]

I think the acer could be a good buy for you mate.

I ended up ordering it. It should arrive this week. When it does I will post some feedback.

[STEvil]

I'm fricking tired of hearing about this lame response time and input lag, you are trying to measure such small numbers that you cannot notice them with your naked eye!



Which IPS do you have? S-IPS? E-IPS? Model?

I currently have a Dell U2410 and there is nothing out there I've used that can bring me better satisfaction while playing any games. And I've used quite a few of TN panels with the "2ms gtg" response times and very low input lag. Simply, it all comes down to how GOOD the games look on an IPS screen, the colors, the brightness, the contrast is just incomparable to the TN screens, period.

Input lag is easily visible with the naked eye if you have a display that you can turn an option on/off that makes a marked effect on it.

For example is my Toshiba Regza 46". With game mode off, everything feels laggy. By turning game mode on while playing a game you can instantly SEE and feel the effect it is so pronounced.

Is game mode perfect on this TV? No, but with some tweaking to the display colors/gamma/contrast/brightness/etc its back to where it should be... hate how game mode makes everything look like crap on tv's :( Guess thats fine for console people though, haha ;)

[MrDiaz]

Well yeah, there are panels out there that are terrible, I was referring mostly to the top IPS panels, specifically the U2410. I don'r see myself dropping that for any TN panel, ever.

[prava]

I'm fricking tired of hearing about this lame response time and input lag, you are trying to measure such small numbers that you cannot notice them with your naked eye!



Which IPS do you have? S-IPS? E-IPS? Model?

I currently have a Dell U2410 and there is nothing out there I've used that can bring me better satisfaction while playing any games. And I've used quite a few of TN panels with the "2ms gtg" response times and very low input lag. Simply, it all comes down to how GOOD the games look on an IPS screen, the colors, the brightness, the contrast is just incomparable to the TN screens, period.

Dell 2005FPW, but that doesn't matter. At all. Like I said, if you are serious about gaming, contrast, colour, brightness and all that stuff just doesn't matter at all! You want the fastest possible screen and, if you are not going to a CRT, you just have one option: a 120hz one. Thats it: and this is not about your opinion nor my opinion, these are facts (when playing online we don't lower all the details just for fun...but in order to have a flat FPS all the time).
If you don't agree with me, is because you just haven't played with a CRT @ 100hz. Then you will realize that for serious gaming all TFT's are crap, laggy and all other stuff...except the 120hz (that are the ones that get closer to a CRT than any other TFT).

And, again, I know what means using an S-IPS in my everyday life, and I don't regret it at all: I :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing love it. But I also can tell you that when, for one reason or the other, I have to swith to my good old CRT and I play at 100hz for some time then I just can't look at my TFT anymore, until I get used to its blurry image again.

This is like talking about input lag and vsync: If you don't feel that the game is laggy when turning vsync on its not because there is not, its because you can't feel it.

[Soulburner]

What do you guys think about led tv's? my self im in the marked for a $1000 gaming monitor. And regarding to the respons time, the Samsung UE32B6050 LED is down to 5ms i think. At least the LCD modells are so fast. One downside is that its just 100hz.


cant you guys get Plasma? regardless how high 120Hz or 200Hz, they're still yet to reach the Plasma level

the only disadvantage of Plasmas is the viewing in very bright area like office, and burn-in (unless if you're gaming tetris for straight 1 week)


If you want the best monitor for gaming you should get plazma TV
better black level , 0.1ms response time , very clear and sharp picture and more...
just check the panasonic G15 or G25 plazma TVs .
QFT...much, much better use of $1000 than an LCD TV. Plus the viewing angles on the LEDs are terrible.

I've seen the newer Panasonic Plasmas in a bright office building. It's a bank that has glass windows for walls, and they look fine.

[Logitrust]

QFT...much, much better use of $1000 than an LCD TV. Plus the viewing angles on the LEDs are terrible.

I've seen the newer Panasonic Plasmas in a bright office building. It's a bank that has glass windows for walls, and they look fine.

So what you are saying is that plastma is the way to go? The picture/contrasts on the LED's are mutch better on the demo-wall in the stores, compared with the LCD, i think.

Somone correct me if I am wrong here, but the input lag merged with the output lag = response time?

I have about 1.5 to 2 m reading distance, to choose this to go for television (hdmi) (plastma, LCD, LED) instead of a computer monitor in terms of inches to what you get for a budget of about $ 1000 here in Norway. A thing with plastma, guess that burning the cells with a lot of static images in O.S.(win.) etc...

Noob Q from me, but what does QFT stand for? :P

[MrDiaz]

QFT is "quoted for truth"

[One_Hertz]

120hz if you want things to actually be smooth, no question about it. If you do not notice the lag of 60hz then you will be fine with the IPS...

[Logitrust]

ok. il def. go for 120hz, for the future and not least the ability to 3D. tnx

[STEvil]

Make sure you get a display with true 120hz, not interpolated crap which is almost as bad as high input latency.

edit - for the record, all plasma TV's are 60hz.

[zanzabar]

Make sure you get a display with true 120hz, not interpolated crap which is almost as bad as high input latency.

edit - for the record, all plasma TV's are 60hz.

what about the new panasonic 120hz or ones in pal regions :D

[STEvil]

what about the new panasonic 120hz or ones in pal regions :D

Here is a short list of 120hz capable displays. Its short because nothing else that claims to be 120hz really is. Ignore the DLP monitors, they are not 120hz.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/3D_Vision_Requirements.html


PAL does not change anything.

[zanzabar]

i thought that pal used 50hz and not 60. and how do those mitsu dlp not do 120hz, they were the 1st 3d capable and ive heard of people using them for 3d vision. and are 3d ready pannels that are just starting to hit stores not 120hz i thought that was the point

[Soulburner]

Make sure you get a display with true 120hz, not interpolated crap which is almost as bad as high input latency.

edit - for the record, all plasma TV's are 60hz.
They may be but there is a lot more to smooth motion than the refresh rate. DLP and Plasma TVs are in a league above LCD technology in reproducing smooth motion, no matter the refresh rate.

Here is a short list of 120hz capable displays. Its short because nothing else that claims to be 120hz really is. Ignore the DLP monitors, they are not 120hz.
DLP is technically 2x60Hz, which is enough for 3D video. Again though, this says little about its ability as a display.

I'd worry less about hunting for numbers and specs, and actually buy a display based on its performance.

[MrDiaz]

Make sure you get a display with true 120hz, not interpolated crap which is almost as bad as high input latency.

edit - for the record, all plasma TV's are 60hz.

You mean 600Hz?

[zanzabar]

You mean 600Hz?

no thats the pixel flicker rate not the screen refresh frequency, they all only accept 60hz or lower except for the new 3d panels

[STEvil]

They may be but there is a lot more to smooth motion than the refresh rate. DLP and Plasma TVs are in a league above LCD technology in reproducing smooth motion, no matter the refresh rate.

DLP is technically 2x60Hz, which is enough for 3D video. Again though, this says little about its ability as a display.

I'd worry less about hunting for numbers and specs, and actually buy a display based on its performance.

Thats what I did and I quite enjoy my Toshiba 46" even though it is a "60hz" display ;)

120hz is awesome but i'll wait a couple years to see if the technology matures.. or the manufacturers and standards.

[scottbenson8]

Right now I would get the alienware 120 hrz. It seems to review as the best in its size in my opinion.

[STEvil]

Alienware uses the Acer panels

[Helloworld_98]

Right now I would get the alienware 120 hrz. It seems to review as the best in its size in my opinion.

but why pay the extra over the acer when other than the aesthetics they are exactly the same

[Chickenfeed]

I personally just picked up a Samsung 2233rz and so far I am quite happy with it from a gaming standpoint. The difference between 60-120hz is night a day. Although my LG has much better 2D picture quality (8bit M-PVA panel 178/178 viewing angles vs 6bit TN panel with 170/160 viewing angles ) the samsung just handles motion so much better, its not even the same league.

Really its down to your usage. As it stands if you want to go 120hz on a PC lcd, your going with a TN panel. Although IPS are awesome for color reproduction, they quite honestly blow chunks for gaming. Until there is a best of both worlds option in the future, this is the compromise that must me made.

That said, as far as 20-22" TN panels go, this one is pretty good all considered. Still that doesn't change the fact it is TN. I went with it because it was a decent price and I don't really need anything in the way of extras for my intended usage. I considered getting a larger display however my reasoning was, the performance at 1680x1050 will be higher so I'd better appreciate and take advantage of the 120Hz ability and after comparing the performance in a few games at both resolutions ( 1680x1050 , 1920x1200 ) I feel I've made the right choice. For me I don't see the point of halving a fast display like this if your framerates aren't really high anyways and I'm sure any old school CRT gamers would agree with me here.

Basically if you are a picture quality nazi, you'll probaley be dissapointed but if you are coming from another TN panel, you have nothing to lose ( as you have nothing to compare it to hehe ) Like I said, as far as TN panels go its pretty good.

As far as the Acer panels I haven't heard a whole lot about them to be honest.


I have one last closing note however and this is very important. As it stands using ATI 4/5 series cards, you cannot overclock your card via software while running at 120hz. This is a known issue and AMD claim to be looking into it ( but this was late last year and theres still been no word yet... ) Basically the cards memory clock causes the display to flicker wildy each and every time it switchs powerplay states ( just like the dual monitor issue with the 5xxx cards ) The only confirmed way to overclock them without issue is to flash the cards bios to have the memory running at full speed at all times. Now I personally did this but it is a pain in the butt and it isn't without risk so if you want to overclock keep this in mind.

With that out of the way, if you are using an ATI card at stock ( no afterburner, no overdrive ect ) you'll have no problems as it automatically locks the memory to the 3d value. Now I haven't checked this myself yet but I've read that you can't run at 120hz at none native resolutions using ATI hardware either but you can with Nvidais so if you plan to run games at lower resolutions ( ie older 4:3 games without widescreen support ) this might be a issue. I'll double check to be sure though.

[absoluteczech]

def 120hz for gaming, but you have to be willing to sacrafice viewing angle

[NKrader]

Well how big can you go? If you want the speed, but love the IQ of the IPS, there is only one solution...

42" Panasonic Plasma

thats a tv son. not a computer monitor lol.. :shrug: :shakes:

or perhaps im just a square.. this is XTREME SYSTEMS! lol :up:

[Serpentarius]

You mean 600Hz?

60Hz ... the term varies between LCD and Plasma ...

it's safe to say that due to motion lags (with naked eye) on lcd ... forces manufacturer to increase the refresh rate .... but on the contrary with Plasma, there's no problem ..... so the refresh rate cannot really used for comparison, it's like comparing apple and orange

LCD is yet to catchup with Plasma, maybe in next decade


Forget about the burn-in disadvantage, how many ppl actually experience burn-in in their traditional CRT anyway?

[Soulburner]

Actually Plasma sets have 600Hz processing - but that's not to be confused with refresh rate. It will still display the framerate of the source. For example, 24 if its 1080/24 material - which btw, LCD can't do properly.

[RaZz!]

hey there, regarding the acer you mention in your op.

i came across a few people who report annoying issues with the gd245hq:

- halo effect around fonts/sharp lines, as reported here:
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=160941

- too aggressive overdrive, as covered here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZO__kY-2WU

seems like the first issue is overdrive related as well (as the guy on the nvidia forums discovered). maybe acer will fix this in a later revision of the monitor - but then it's panel lottery again as we know it from the samsung 226bw (which had like 4 different panels where the panel quality ranged from very good to utterly crap).
as mentioned before, alienware uses acer panels as well. so it's likely these issues also exist on the alienware, assumed both, acer and alienware, use the same panel settings in their firmware. if someone has the said alienware tft at hand i'd really like to know if it suffers from these issues as well.

i'm looking forward to the upcoming lg 120hz display, as i'm very happy with my current lg l227wt (great responsiveness, great colors, good backlight uniformity, sharp and flawless image quality, no dead pixels).

*edit* whoah, just found out the alienware retails at 499€, 150€ more than the acer. i guess it's no option then - i'm not going to pay more than 350€ for a tn-panel.

[RSC]

hey there, regarding the acer you mention in your op.

i came across a few people who report annoying issues with the gd245hq:

- halo effect around fonts/sharp lines, as reported here:
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=160941

- too aggressive overdrive, as covered here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZO__kY-2WU

seems like the first issue is overdrive related as well (as the guy on the nvidia forums discovered). maybe acer will fix this in a later revision of the monitor - but then it's panel lottery again as we know it from the samsung 226bw (which had like 4 different panels where the panel quality ranged from very good to utterly crap).
as mentioned before, alienware uses acer panels as well. so it's likely these issues also exist on the alienware, assumed both, acer and alienware, use the same panel settings in their firmware. if someone has the said alienware tft at hand i'd really like to know if it suffers from these issues as well.

i'm looking forward to the upcoming lg 120hz display, as i'm very happy with my current lg l227wt (great responsiveness, great colors, good backlight uniformity, sharp and flawless image quality, no dead pixels).

*edit* whoah, just found out the alienware retails at 499€, 150€ more than the acer. i guess it's no option then - i'm not going to pay more than 350€ for a tn-panel.

Yes, I've read those threads too before buying the Acer but, as it was said that those issues could be solved by deactivating the OD, I went and bought it anyway.

Now the good news, I had none of those issues, neither in 2D mode nor in 3D mode. The screen works like a charm and it's such a huge difference from my old HP w2207h. It's really really smooth...

[antiacid]

thats a tv son. not a computer monitor lol.. :shrug: :shakes:

or perhaps im just a square.. this is XTREME SYSTEMS! lol :up:

You're right. Nobody in their right mind games on a TV. I mean, who wants to play in 1280x720 or 1920x1080? If you're going for 1920x1200, make sure you get a decent panel. If you're going for size, go for 2560x1600 ;)