clip - Time to bash some snake oil companies

[nauc]

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/1773/eevblog-29-time-to-bash-some-snake-oil-companies

http://www.eevblog.com/about/

[Donnie27]

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/1773/eevblog-29-time-to-bash-some-snake-oil-companies

http://www.eevblog.com/about/

I like this guy and he must be hated by Audiophiles everywhere. I have argued with the same idiots he's talking about. I've heard and love the word "Audiophool":rofl:

There was this one poster we laughed off here. He was a Monster Cable Fanboy. Even another trying to say Optical sounded better than Coax when they are the same digital signal. He tried to make himself seem superior and bragged about his $199 (each) cables on his $20K system my first you reply went like, "See, even smart folks can be suckered".

My $6 Dayton HDMI 1.3a cables work just like the $72 and $29 cables from Best Buy LOL!

Sound Cards, Prelude sounds better than the Vanilla X-FI but that doesn't mean the Vanilla X-Fi sucks:rofl::ROTF:

[[XC] Oj101]

That guy has such a funny way of talking :D

[Donnie27]

That guy has such a funny way of talking :D

Sorry I've been painting the House. This is a bad joke and the victims are hypnotized by what they're being told.

http://www.af4k.com/audio_bs.htm

"""AND NOW THE QUOTES:

Dave D'Epagnier wrote:
[[Hey Ian, what do you make of all these audio amplifier manufacturers specifying their equipment
output power to be in rms Watts? This doesn't make sense to me.

Me neither. Perhaps a certain hi-fi journalist could comment?
If there ever was a place for Charlatan's to set-up shop - its the audio-phile community.
$300 connector sets for speakers
$100+ per foot for 6ga speaker "wire"
Stones, that enhance sonic purity when placed on top of the cabinet $500,
4 gauge power (mains) cables for the ultimate sounding 9 watt triode amp -
(nobody told them the power transformer was wound with 26 gauge)
Electrolytic filter caps with new label material and ink for the printing on
the label, that doesn't "interfere" with strong magnetic field surrounding the cap.

P.T. Barnum is looking down from above, with great big smile on his face. Phil (not audio)
73 from Ian G3SEK Editor, 'The VHF/UHF DX Book ""

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2006/06/13/rover-tracks/

A little past halfway down the page! Again, don't get me wrong, I like finer things in the Audio world but understand that Audio Rocks are BS. I also know that in most cases 16 gauge wire will do and 12gu for long runs are all that is need. I bought 100ft for $20 from some folks on Amazon.com LOL!

[SolidGoldstein]

That guy clearly has no social life. He's almost as bad as the people he's bashing, and if he were selling a product, he WOULD be just as bad. Analogy: Some people don't need 24k gold wedding rings, they only need rings made of the "gold" from a Cadillac DeVille trunk emblem. They might never know the difference, and so a real nice 24k gold would be wasted on them. Sure this EEV guy is an engineer, but maybe his career does not require anything more than a "git-r-done" approach - if it flows electricity and turns on the solenoid, then it's good. Is he engineering deep-sea nuclear submarine electronics? To a guy like that who has no personal interest in tube audio amplifiers, a tube amp is just a heavy, hot, energy inefficient piece of archaic :banana::banana::banana::banana:. To any rock guitar player, tube amps are the only way to fly. Just a couple analogies... I could go on for days. Just for the record, yes I noted Mogami cabling in my sig just to show that I pay attention to details. I also bought a few Monster cables in the clearance bin and new because I can walk into almost any store and have the warranty honored. Sure, I'd rather support another company, but there aren't any other choices with that kind of support.

[NKrader]

you can accually get problems from really cheap hdmi cables and lots of bandwidth

[Jowy Atreides]

To any rock guitar player, tube amps are the only way to fly.


I am a professional session player. Have studied under Guthrie Govan and Marshall Harrison.

You would have been correct saying this 5 years ago.

I've owned:

ADA mp-1
4x mesa triaxis
3 various bogner amps
A replica shawn lane amp
soho 50
fender champ
ac30 original
jmp-1
peavey 5150
peavey van halen
Cornford hellcat

I know my stuff. I really can play like a b****rd. I literally wrote the book on guitar technique.

I sold all of these amps netting a cool 20 grand and bought a copy of amplitube 3 and a stealthpedal

Sounds BETTER. All the same signal influence but with 96k resolution and perfect re-amping abilities.

Oh yeah, cables are cables. I own a bunch of silver core £80 guitar cables.
Use the cheap £20 ones from soundcontrol

[SolidGoldstein]

I am a professional session player. Have studied under Guthrie Govan and Marshall Harrison.

You would have been correct saying this 5 years ago.

I've owned:

ADA mp-1
4x mesa triaxis
3 various bogner amps
A replica shawn lane amp
soho 50
fender champ
ac30 original
jmp-1
peavey 5150
peavey van halen
Cornford hellcat

I know my stuff. I really can play like a b****rd. I literally wrote the book on guitar technique.

I sold all of these amps netting a cool 20 grand and bought a copy of amplitube 3 and a stealthpedal

Sounds BETTER. All the same signal influence but with 96k resolution and perfect re-amping abilities.

Oh yeah, cables are cables. I own a bunch of silver core £80 guitar cables.
Use the cheap £20 ones from soundcontrol

Well, no disrespect really but if you're doing sessions in Pro Tools, it's all going digital anyway so it might not sounds too different, but you're never going to record any legendary tones with your setup ala SRV, Edward Van Halen, James Hetfield. If anyone following your work found out what you used today they'd probably black list you! LOL And, for instance, Hendrix didn't care too much about his amps either. It's not the gear, it's the player. I've met plenty of pro guitar players who don't even know what tubes are in their amps and who don't bother with anything other than the standard BOSS / Celestion / Marshall / Fender stuff. A good tube amp or two is still the only way to rock live shows in 2010 and beyond.

[Donnie27]

Well, no disrespect really but if you're doing sessions in Pro Tools, it's all going digital anyway so it might not sounds too different, but you're never going to record any legendary tones with your setup ala SRV, Edward Van Halen, James Hetfield. If anyone following your work found out what you used today they'd probably black list you! LOL And, for instance, Hendrix didn't care too much about his amps either. It's not the gear, it's the player. I've met plenty of pro guitar players who don't even know what tubes are in their amps and who don't bother with anything other than the standard BOSS / Celestion / Marshall / Fender stuff. A good tube amp or two is still the only way to rock live shows in 2010 and beyond.

Note, you mentioned real things. Looks like you totally missed subject here. Go back and look just a little bit closer to what this guy and many others are saying. He's not talking about Tube vs. cheap solid state AMP. He's talking about $500 Audio Rocks and other SNAKE Oil rip-offs! I play bass and Love Tube AMPs and miss my old 70" Sunn Colosseum Slave, Kustom Head and Speakers!

http://www.vintagekustom.com/images/newlit/kolorkatalog//01.jpg

I had one like the Middle one on the link! I'm older and don't play in a Group so a Cheap-@$$ed Behringer Head and GK 4 x 10's will do me well.


That out the way, I dare anyone to buy this cable.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=180-680

The test it against this?

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Monster-Cable-1-meter-1000hd-Ultra-High-Speed-HDMI-Cable/11080859?wmlspartner=GPA&sourceid=44444444440360131355

I'd love to see a difference since so far I haven't! I've used PE for a very long time! Since I'm the one a crap load of friends call to help the or to connect their electronics and I'll say right now, 80 to 200+ dollar HDMI cables are a rip off!=P Here's monster cable folks at work!

http://hd.engadget.com/2009/03/23/monster-hdmi-difference-scam-still-kickin-in-frys-electronic/

Same scam from 2007!
http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/17/hdmi-cable-scam-used-to-fool-in-store-customers/

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/top-ten-signs-an-audio-cable-vendor-is-selling-you-snake-oil


TOP 10
Watch out if a Cable Vendor or Manufacturer:

1. Promotes that their product allegedly eliminates audio related Skin Effect and/or "Strand Jumping" problems.

2. Claims revolutionary breakthrough in cable technology by polarizing or biasing the dielectric using a battery.

3. Promotes that their products eliminate "Audiogenic", "Diode Rectification" or any type of non linear distortions. See Debunking the Myth of Cable Distortion and Dielectric Biasing

4. Physically places (+) and (-) wire leads in separate dielectrics not closely spaced in a common jacket. See: Calculating Cable Inductance of Twin Feeder Cables

5. Claims vast improvements in sound by inserting "Cable Elevators" to raise the cables off the floor and minimize electron misfiring or static energy fields.

6. Claims that cryogenic-ally freezing cables improves fidelity or measurably changes electrical properties after the cable is restored to room temperature.

7. Claims that their cables require a "Break In" period.

8. Claims that measurements cannot quantify why their designs are superior and often misapply engineering principles in their reasoning but abandon the associated governing laws and metrics that establish them.

9. Claims audible differences exist between stranded and non-stranded wires of same gauge rating, geometry and conductor spacing.

10. Claims audible differences between silver and copper cables of equal design geometry and gauge.

There's NOTHING legit in those 10 things! Hell yeah Marantz sounds better than Sony. But that's NOT what the complaint was about.

Not just the BS about cables!

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

This isn't a swipe at Audiophiles but Audiophools stupid enough for fall for crap like """New Size! - Extra Large Brilliant Pebbles - about 50% larger than the Large size, intended for room corners of larger rooms and larger speaker cabinets. Comes in clear ziplock bag. $159 each.

New Cable Kit of 4 Mikros - The Mikros should be attached to all interconnects and digital cable near the RCA jacks or placed on or next to the RCA jacks. Can also be taped to glass in the room - doors, pictures, windows. $99 set of 4 Mikros. ""

Get real!

[SolidGoldstein]

Donnie27 - after watching that whole video in the OP, and hearing him mention monster cables and other things that are questionable (different than non-existent), I have to tell you... you need to calm the F down man. The guy mentioned Monster and the price of a power accessory. Price. Yes he mentions some marketing words, but not all of them are proven either way. As far as what I mentioned, I don't think you understand the point I was making. Op Amp ICs and Tube amp circuits can both be used to make a musical amplifier, but can anyone really say why tubes sound better without talking about the sound? Just the electronics and why the materials sound better. I think it would be difficult to do and someone with ZERO knowledge and bias on the subject probably would pick the solid state. I donno, I just don't think the EEV guy is a valid authority on the subject of Audiophile equipment. This is the developed world where people buy things purely as status symbols.

[OldChap]

If anyone wants to try an exercise in "it all sounds the same" take a few meters of 34way ribbon cable split the ends into individual strands then connect all the even strands together and all the odd strands together at each end and connect each to banana plugs or whatever you currently use for speaker cables (test with meter for mistakes), then give them a whirl...you have just built a simple low inductance cable which for quite a few of you will produce a cleaner sounding and better timed mid-high end to your music...It will depend on the damping factor of your NON VALVE amp how much difference you get.

This should cost just a few dollars...or you can go out and import an adjustable 2m pair for $5000

I say there is a difference but it is not right to charge the earth as some of these "high end" sellers seem to. Does that make me a cheap skate?

EDIT: just for safety you might want to grab a 4.7ohm 5watt resistor and a 0.1 microfarad 100v capacitor wire them in series and connect them across the speaker terminals during the test (we don't want to overheat your amp now do we :)

[SolidGoldstein]

The force is strong with this bloke.






The sarcasmic force. ;)

[Donnie27]

Donnie27 - after watching that whole video in the OP, and hearing him mention monster cables and other things that are questionable (different than non-existent), I have to tell you... you need to calm the F down man. The guy mentioned Monster and the price of a power accessory. Price. Yes he mentions some marketing words, but not all of them are proven either way. As far as what I mentioned, I don't think you understand the point I was making. Op Amp ICs and Tube amp circuits can both be used to make a musical amplifier, but can anyone really say why tubes sound better without talking about the sound? Just the electronics and why the materials sound better. I think it would be difficult to do and someone with ZERO knowledge and bias on the subject probably would pick the solid state. I donno, I just don't think the EEV guy is a valid authority on the subject of Audiophile equipment. This is the developed world where people buy things purely as status symbols.

:rofl: Are you even replying in the right thread? I understood what you said perfectly, you're the one not getting it, hehehe!

Not only do you need to calm down, please re-read the title? Did you just glace over, then come to misplaced opinion about what you thought we were talking about? I gave the example of Marantz sounding better than Sony and other Legit points. We're NOT talking about better IC's, DAC's, Heavier Heat-sinks on better AMPs or etc.... I happen to love Tube amps and the Fat Warm sounds many of the better ones produce. There are also great solid-state based Amps, receivers and the Harmon Kardon 930 makes that point brilliantly, I own a 730 version of it! So stick with the Topic or start another LOL!:rofl:

The guy was talking about stuff like the Audio Rocks and had nothing to do with what you lamely trying to dispel here. The thread is about "Snake Oil" salespeople and products. Now if you think Audio Rocks really work, please enlighten us? Since you still seem to be not getting it, here's what the thread is about!:up:

""clip - Time to bash some snake oil companies"" Monster is one of many and I gave links to show just that, what you have done in the thread? "I have to tell you... you need to calm the F down man.":ROTF:

http://gizmodo.com/309460/outrageous-audio-equipment-gallery-for-audiophools-only


Outrageous Audio Equipment Gallery: For Audiophools Only

I love MAC Pre/AMPs and Martin Logan Speakers then toss in a SACD for the source but clearly that's not this thread was about!:p:

[Donnie27]

If anyone wants to try an exercise in "it all sounds the same" take a few meters of 34way ribbon cable split the ends into individual strands then connect all the even strands together and all the odd strands together at each end and connect each to banana plugs or whatever you currently use for speaker cables (test with meter for mistakes), then give them a whirl...you have just built a simple low inductance cable which for quite a few of you will produce a cleaner sounding and better timed mid-high end to your music...It will depend on the damping factor of your NON VALVE amp how much difference you get.

This should cost just a few dollars...or you can go out and import an adjustable 2m pair for $5000

I say there is a difference but it is not right to charge the earth as some of these "high end" sellers seem to. Does that make me a cheap skate?

EDIT: just for safety you might want to grab a 4.7ohm 5watt resistor and a 0.1 microfarad 100v capacitor wire them in series and connect them across the speaker terminals during the test (we don't want to overheat your amp now do we :)

Not what the thread is about though! Maybe the other guy threw you off as well. No one is talking about "it all sounds the same". All anyone has to do is compare Mobo sound to any half-a$$ed Discrete Sound card for better fidelity. Maybe the next link with help:confused:

http://www.sandlabs.com/audiophools.htm
http://grumpyoldarts.com/2009/04/18/audiophools/

"""It’s like putting Nitro in your fuel tank. We found the sound of the **** to be dynamic, very clear and the high-frequency information in the recording to be more accurate, such as the venue echoes etc.

– This, my friends, is a description of the audio effects of a mains cable. Yes, we’re talking about the short power cord that has an audio component at one end and your wall outlet at the other. A simple change in power cord can make the high-frequency information in the recording more accurate! Upgrade your music library today! Contact the author of this review (and the owner of the company) now! He’ll be happy to sell you 9 ft of this magical cable for just $1200."""

:up:

[OldChap]

Ok. Got it I think, Anyways my little experiment above is up there for anyone who likes to play and doesn't like to pay. :up:

Maybe it is time to investigate the scientific claims of these shysters (if they give any) and build some similar cheap alternatives

[SolidGoldstein]

man, Donnie27 you are a whackjob! Everyone who posts a comment on the 2 links (notice zero text in the OP?) is not required to be in the conspiracy theorist cult with you.

[Donnie27]

man, Donnie27 you are a whackjob! Everyone who posts a comment on the 2 links (notice zero text in the OP?) is not required to be in the conspiracy theorist cult with you.

Let's see, you come in here, tell me to calm down, then say I don't get it even before saying hello and then call me a "whackjob"? Wouldn't it have been easier to admit you didn't read the thread, missed the point and said something like my bad and moved on? Maybe the thread hit a sore spot, OK what sucker product did you waste money on?:D

No one's talking about any conspiracy theories or cults. It's about snake oil sales people and folks gullible enough to believe the BS they pedal? I've given more than two links but since you seem to not comprehend or read well enough, maybe you can't count either LOL! :rofl:


Ok. Got it I think, Anyways my little experiment above is up there for anyone who likes to play and doesn't like to pay.

Maybe it is time to investigate the scientific claims of these shysters (if they give any) and build some similar cheap alternatives

First, sorry for the double post! See, at least you got it!:up: There are expensive Audio Products that aren't Gimmicks and worth every penny in most folks opinion!:yepp: The items we're talking about just aren't though.

http://www.audiodestination.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=561

CD can either be read or not read they aren't like Analog Vinyl records or tape.

http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2008/11/most-expensive-speaker-cable-world-audioquest-audiophile/


$21,000. It could buy you a car, it could be a down payment on a house, you could take off on a couple of amazing vacations, have a really nice wedding, or it could pay for your sick mom’s liver surgery. Better yet, how about 3 meters of speaker cable?

The crazies wonderful people people at Audioquest are selling this new speaker cable called the Audioquest Everest . This audiophile speaker cable boasts “Counter Spiralling Geometry” and “Spread Spectrum Technology” conductors. It’s got 4 different sizes of positive conductors and eight (!) negative conductors.

They of course claim that it “provides considerably better transparency and dynamics” and that the “Pure Perfect-Surface eliminates harshness and greatly increases clarity”.

Now, I realize that I just posted about the $5000 ipod earphones , but hey at least those are a fashion statement. These audiophile cables aren’t diamond-encrusted! I always thought that the Pear cables were ridiculously expensive at $5000, but obviously they are tinny & distorted compared to these babies.:rolleyes:

There are hundreds of items that fit in the Audiophool category. Again, nothing to do with Legit Products.

[Sage88]

Yeah should check out the Siltech Emperor Crown or the BMI Oceanic Statement IEC. :rofl: Just ridiculous. I believe that there is a standing 'competition' out there for anyone who can scientifically prove that these types of cables are any better then using a wire coat hanger to hook up your speakers

[zanzabar]

he mentioned the monster power strip thats $500, im assuming thats their power conditioner. sure it dose cost allot and u can get a better pro grade one for studios for $50-150 depending the wattage but they do help if u have bad lines and get electrical noise.

also with monster u always know that they are shielded properly, so if u find them cheap like at the best buy bulk bin when they clean the trucks out and they charge $5 for any cable or say u need a component cable for a console they are competative with the 1st party cables, so if u dont want to import it they can be good for proprietary cables (im taking about the $30 ones not the $100+ ones.)

[Donnie27]

Yeah should check out the Siltech Emperor Crown or the BMI Oceanic Statement IEC. :rofl: Just ridiculous. I believe that there is a standing 'competition' out there for anyone who can scientifically prove that these types of cables are any better then using a wire coat hanger to hook up your speakers

Yepp, total foolery!

""Siltech also has two loudspeakers, the Pantheon XXV ($130,000/pair) and the new Pantheon XX (pictured), which debuted at CES for $40,000/pair. While I did not get the opportunity to hear it—so many cables and tweaks, so little time—the visually stunning Crystal Cable speaker on the other side of the wall—JA will be blogging later today on this speaker—sounded fantastic on an excerpt from the Reference Recording disc of Rutter's Requiem"""

Again, this is for Audiophools and know folks who built studios for less money than they're talking about here! I kill them with any of these ML that will run about $1,850 for a set, still not cheap but you'll start get diminishing returns trying get more or clearer sounds.

http://www.audiophileliquidator.net/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=martin&osCsid=5abe9026ab6ebbc1378b1efb8d155250&gclid=CKSRnd-j-qACFQpgswodG2B0Zw

http://www.audiophileliquidator.net/product_info.php?products_id=10379&osCsid=5abe9026ab6ebbc1378b1efb8d155250

I don't believe anything needs Power Conditioners for normal home use=P In fact, all the Gimmicky products themselves are what's causing the drain and strain that could (possible) create the Noise in the first place. If it is that much Noise in your lines, then you need repairs. However, good power strips are a must and any costing more than $39 are questionable IMHO! These should have Power, Telephone and Cable TV connections.


also with monster u always know that they are shielded properly, so if u find them cheap like at the best buy bulk bin when they clean the trucks out and they charge $5 for any cable or say u need a component cable for a console they are competative with the 1st party cables, so if u dont want to import it they can be good for proprietary cables (im taking about the $30 ones not the $100+ ones.)

Not if it is a $5 cable Monster is selling for $30!

Actually, Bluegenes are not only cheaper but just as much guarantied!
http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/blue-jeans-strikes-back

[STEvil]

What ever happened with that lawsuit between bluejean and monster btw?

[SolidGoldstein]

Let's see, you come in here, tell me to calm down, then say I don't get it even before saying hello and then call me a "whackjob"? Wouldn't it have been easier to admit you didn't read the thread, missed the point and said something like my bad and moved on? Maybe the thread hit a sore spot, OK what sucker product did you waste money on?:D

No one's talking about any conspiracy theories or cults. It's about snake oil sales people and folks gullible enough to believe the BS they pedal? I've given more than two links but since you seem to not comprehend or read well enough, maybe you can't count either LOL! :rofl:

Donnie27 - You're OFF THE DEEP END... YOU are the one who is missing the point -clearly- from your posts. I said 2 links in the context of the OP which had no message/idea/response/thesis. I see your other links, and don't care for them. You're a train wreck man. Who says hello in a thread like I'm going to see the Wizard of Oz or something....??? This is not your house/territory/property or any exclusive club of yours in any regard. It's a public forum where different people from all over the world express their thoughts, experiences, etc. Apparently you don't get the basic premises such as this.

There's no evidence that proves what you're saying, it's self-indulgent bull:banana::banana::banana::banana:.

[STEvil]

I think i'm siding with donnie on this one, though I think he for sure could express himself in a much more controlled.. tone.

[MattiasNYC]

If I may butt in since I'm also in the pro-audio field - I think the main issues are:

~ Some companies offer not only the overrated product that we use, but also support and/or warranty that is not overrated. Those things need to be kept apart.

~ I've had competing audio engineers sell this oil to producers who then went with that other guy (I'll expand on it if anyone wants to know - it was beyond ridiculous). As a professional it's a very difficult situation to be in. Trying to educate the customer without him feeling that one is smearing the competition. Especially if the competition has a good reputation.

~ Some people simply market stuff according to how they think the customer will react, not according to what they believe.

~ There's an absolute difference between if something is different or if it is the same.

~ When things are different the first thing that matters in audio is if the difference is audible.

~ When we then find out that the difference is audible, we're unfortunately stuck with the issue of subjectivity: Solid State amps, Tube Amps and going direct to AD into modeling software clearly are all different, and likely all sound different. So how substantial is the difference? What are our preferences? Is saying that one is "better" really all that valuable a judgment?

[MattiasNYC]

Well, no disrespect really but if you're doing sessions in Pro Tools, it's all going digital anyway so it might not sounds too different, but you're never going to record any legendary tones with your setup ala SRV, Edward Van Halen, James Hetfield.

No disrespect here either. I'll just point out that the difference would probably be quite significant. That's not to say that one would automatically identify which is which, but at least that there is a difference, consistently.

That it all ends up in a digital storage medium doesn't automatically "smooth out" the differences.


If anyone following your work found out what you used today they'd probably black list you! LOL And, for instance, Hendrix didn't care too much about his amps either. It's not the gear, it's the player.

Well, the above seems to be a contradiction actually. If it's not the gear but the player, then it doesn't matter which gear you use: actual hardware that's amplified and mic'd, or going straight into a DAW for software emulation.


A good tube amp or two is still the only way to rock live shows in 2010 and beyond.

Not sure I agree with this and I think it has to do with economics.

Look at how the music industry has changed. We've gone from super-expensive (for good reasons) recording studios to smaller production rooms and home studios. From audio systems that grew from the old vinyl to CD (which is pretty good quality actually) and "back down again" to mp3's and crappy ear buds. Rather than actually paying for music people download a tremendous amount. Music venues have closed, and the marketable music that gets the big bucks is garbage for the most part - garbage with little longevity but with a high short-term profit.

So in that context - in the context of trying to save money and make money short term at every corner - I think it's even inevitable that we'll see many more venues investing in devices that offer the touring guitar player the ability to simply plug in and pick a virtual amplifier. Might not happen in 2010, but I bet you that in a few years it won't be unreasonable at all. Or, even sooner, the touring players likely bring with them laptops etc themselves for increased control.

Think about it this way:

1) The guitarist is now given more control over the sound leaving the stage. Instead of having to rely on the venues mics, cables and preamps he can now output exactly to the mix buss what he wants to hear. The only parameter left to deal with is the playback system.

2) Less stuff to carry. The difference increases when you consider a band with a couple of guitar players and a bass player. All three carrying gear equal to a carry-on bag as opposed to heavy amps. Save space = save money on tour.

Just my 0.2....

[STEvil]

CD's have gone down dramatically in quality as well, as in their levels are all equalized or jacked up... almost dont even need a subsonic filter anymore :(

[MattiasNYC]

CD's have gone down dramatically in quality as well, as in their levels are all equalized or jacked up... almost dont even need a subsonic filter anymore :(

Well, what I meant was that the technology itself was from a certain standpoint the best mainstream consumer tech we got, and then it ironically got worse because of convenience and cost.

And another way of putting it: If Led Zeppelin tried to make an album today they'd suffer commercially if it sounded the way their LP's did when they came out. Not because of the technology, but because music in general, regardless of medium, is compressed and loudness maximized to all hell.

But I'm guessing you meant "music quality in general" and perhaps not CDs specifically....

[SolidGoldstein]

No disrespect here either. I'll just point out that the difference would probably be quite significant. That's not to say that one would automatically identify which is which, but at least that there is a difference, consistently.

That it all ends up in a digital storage medium doesn't automatically "smooth out" the differences.



Well, the above seems to be a contradiction actually. If it's not the gear but the player, then it doesn't matter which gear you use: actual hardware that's amplified and mic'd, or going straight into a DAW for software emulation.



Not sure I agree with this and I think it has to do with economics.

Look at how the music industry has changed. We've gone from super-expensive (for good reasons) recording studios to smaller production rooms and home studios. From audio systems that grew from the old vinyl to CD (which is pretty good quality actually) and "back down again" to mp3's and crappy ear buds. Rather than actually paying for music people download a tremendous amount. Music venues have closed, and the marketable music that gets the big bucks is garbage for the most part - garbage with little longevity but with a high short-term profit.

So in that context - in the context of trying to save money and make money short term at every corner - I think it's even inevitable that we'll see many more venues investing in devices that offer the touring guitar player the ability to simply plug in and pick a virtual amplifier. Might not happen in 2010, but I bet you that in a few years it won't be unreasonable at all. Or, even sooner, the touring players likely bring with them laptops etc themselves for increased control.

Think about it this way:

1) The guitarist is now given more control over the sound leaving the stage. Instead of having to rely on the venues mics, cables and preamps he can now output exactly to the mix buss what he wants to hear. The only parameter left to deal with is the playback system.

2) Less stuff to carry. The difference increases when you consider a band with a couple of guitar players and a bass player. All three carrying gear equal to a carry-on bag as opposed to heavy amps. Save space = save money on tour.

Just my 0.2....

WTF? You don't understand my logic. I thought I was safe from the stupidity on this forum. Clearly you can't imagine someone on the internet understanding and seeing your argument, it must be humanly impossible. Well, maybe for YOU. I try to abridge most of my ideas so as not to go on for days, and therein lies the problem. For example, I was trying to come to an articulation fusing our ideas into a more clear argument. I was not saying that Pro Tools would smooth out the differences between a modeled guitar tone and the real thing. Also, case in point, King's X (a well-known cultish heavy rock band) made some great albums with the real deal amps, and then made an album with a Line 6 amp modeler. They were snubbed for it.

This thread is a joke. None of you "pros" are even in the same league as I'm talking about here. So, your economic based premises are not valid in context. It's your logic that is cheapening the quality of music these days.

[MattiasNYC]

WTF? You don't understand my logic. I thought I was safe from the stupidity on this forum.

Relax. Does making an argument possibly contrary to your opinion automatically warrant "stupidity on this forum"?


Clearly you can't imagine someone on the internet understanding and seeing your argument, it must be humanly impossible. Well, maybe for YOU. I try to abridge most of my ideas so as not to go on for days, and therein lies the problem. For example, I was trying to come to an articulation fusing our ideas into a more clear argument.

Ok, so tell me what I misunderstood then. Do you really have to resort to having an attitude? (that's what it reads like to me anyways)


I was not saying that Pro Tools would smooth out the differences between a modeled guitar tone and the real thing.

Ok... uhm.... when you write "doing sessions in Pro Tools, it's all going digital anyway so it might not sounds too different", it sure sounded like that's what you meant.


Also, case in point, King's X (a well-known cultish heavy rock band) made some great albums with the real deal amps, and then made an album with a Line 6 amp modeler. They were snubbed for it.

And? What can we learn from that? Were they "snubbed" because people thought it sounded "bad", or because it sounded "different", or because people simply were aware that there was a difference (which doesn't mean they could hear the difference)?


This thread is a joke. None of you "pros" are even in the same league as I'm talking about here.

You know, a condescending tone doesn't win you any arguments... not that it's a competition..... but still.... Now, seeing that you bring it up: What "league" are you talking about here? What level of "pro"? What exactly do you know of the "league" and "pro" level I or others represent? And what level do you represent? Do we really want to go down that road?


So, your economic based premises are not valid in context.

Not valid in what context and why? You're not being very clear.


It's your logic that is cheapening the quality of music these days.

Huh? "My" logic? I'm not advocating any of this. I'm merely pointing out what I think is the case and how I think the industry will continue to change. So it's really not my "logic" I'm talking about, it's just how I see the music industry changed.

[STEvil]

Well, what I meant was that the technology itself was from a certain standpoint the best mainstream consumer tech we got, and then it ironically got worse because of convenience and cost.

And another way of putting it: If Led Zeppelin tried to make an album today they'd suffer commercially if it sounded the way their LP's did when they came out. Not because of the technology, but because music in general, regardless of medium, is compressed and loudness maximized to all hell.

But I'm guessing you meant "music quality in general" and perhaps not CDs specifically....

Mostly means CD's.

There is still music out there of decent quality, regardless of if the mastering is a bit poor... and its getting rarer :(

[MattiasNYC]

Well, I guess what I meant to say was that CD's aren't a "problem" technologically speaking. If new music sounds "worse" then it is because of the recording, mixing and mastering process, not the format itself.

And as for the music itself, I totally agree with you.

[Levish]

with respect to cryo treating things & room temperature meantioned earlier, the process of cryo treating does have a metalurgic effect (It improves the durability of brake rotors and there are possibly other effects), but I doubt that this would have any measurable effect on home theaters.

[STEvil]

with respect to cryo treating things & room temperature meantioned earlier, the process of cryo treating does have a metalurgic effect (It improves the durability of brake rotors and there are possibly other effects), but I doubt that this would have any measurable effect on home theaters.

Are these $50,000 brake rotors?


I remember back when we were dipping CPU's in LN2 to try and see if it would help them (Athlon-XP's and stuff). It didnt... so we just went back to putting a pot of LN2 on top of them while they were actually running :D

[Donnie27]

Donnie27 - You're OFF THE DEEP END... YOU are the one who is missing the point -clearly- from your posts. I said 2 links in the context of the OP which had no message/idea/response/thesis. I see your other links, and don't care for them. You're a train wreck man. Who says hello in a thread like I'm going to see the Wizard of Oz or something....??? This is not your house/territory/property or any exclusive club of yours in any regard. It's a public forum where different people from all over the world express their thoughts, experiences, etc. Apparently you don't get the basic premises such as this.

There's no evidence that proves what you're saying, it's self-indulgent bull:banana::banana::banana::banana:.

1. So prove to the posters here that Audio Rocks work?
2. Their claims about their cables are valid?
3. That any of the Top 10 reasons are false?
4. Parts Express HDMI cables aren't as good as Monsters.
5. That the Monster Con-Job from that link is Fake.

Can you do any of these things? The very simple premise of the thread is Snake Oil. You did miss the point of the thread and something simple as "Oh, OK" would have been enough. Instead, you break forum decorum and bash me and others LOL! Naw, I'll NOT return the favor. Bash all you like:) Go ahead, dig a deeper hole and loose even more respect.


I think i'm siding with donnie on this one, though I think he for sure could express himself in a much more controlled.. tone. :clap:

Of course you're right! I know I shouldn't retaliate but hey.

Example;


WTF? You don't understand my logic. I thought I was safe from the stupidity on this forum. Clearly you can't imagine someone on the internet understanding and seeing your argument, it must be humanly impossible...............This thread is a joke. None of you "pros" are even in the same league as I'm talking about here. So, your economic based premises are not valid in context. It's your logic that is cheapening the quality of music these days.


There are a lot of mean come backs to such off topic BS!:rolleyes: This other poster did NOTHING to warrant this kind reply from this guy! I didn't post back immediately because I know my original reply was Ban Material!:rofl:

[Donnie27]

relax. Does making an argument possibly contrary to your opinion automatically warrant "stupidity on this forum"?

Ok, so tell me what i misunderstood then. Do you really have to resort to having an attitude? (that's what it reads like to me anyways)

ok... Uhm.... When you write "doing sessions in pro tools, it's all going digital anyway so it might not sounds too different", it sure sounded like that's what you meant.

And? What can we learn from that? Were they "snubbed" because people thought it sounded "bad", or because it sounded "different", or because people simply were aware that there was a difference (which doesn't mean they could hear the difference)?

You know, a condescending tone doesn't win you any arguments... Not that it's a competition..... But still.... Now, seeing that you bring it up: What "league" are you talking about here? What level of "pro"? What exactly do you know of the "league" and "pro" level i or others represent? And what level do you represent? Do we really want to go down that road?

Not valid in what context and why? You're not being very clear.

Huh? "my" logic? I'm not advocating any of this. I'm merely pointing out what i think is the case and how i think the industry will continue to change. So it's really not my "logic" i'm talking about, it's just how i see the music industry changed.

qft!

[Donnie27]

More Audio-Phoolery! :rofl:

http://www.ilikejam.org/blog/audio/audiophile.html

AUDIOPRISM CD STOP LIGHT PEN
Marigo Labs Signature 3-D Mat
BEDINI - QUADRI-BEAM ULTRA CLARIFIER
Nanotech Systems NESPA #1
Furutech RD-2 Demagnitizer
CD Sound Improver
The GSIC-10 Intelligent Chip
Ultra Tweeter from Golden Sound
The Altmann Tube-o-lator lacquer

And many many more!

[metalop1g]

What a good reading :D Still, I need to find a good guide of what are the affordable pieces of equipment I could get, that have a well established reputation, to fill my room this summer..

LOL @ 50 000$ speakers, and 20k interconnects

[STEvil]

Technically I could see some of the elevation/dampening stuff actually doing something depending on the system.. if a resonance frequency made a coil somewhere move it could possibly introduce artifacts somewhere along the chain of components..

at least thats my theory.. I wouldnt rely on their tech to do anything about it because none of what I read in any of the links went into any detail of whats actually happening.. haha.

[crackhead2k]

listened to speaker ranging from a couple hundred to 100000, havent seen anything more expensive in person... anything after 30ish k is just output and lightly different sound....imho

[Donnie27]

listened to speaker ranging from a couple hundred to 100000, havent seen anything more expensive in person... anything after 30ish k is just output and lightly different sound....imho

http://cgi.ebay.com/Carver-AV-505-Multi-Channel-Amplifier-/280499223280?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item414f0e7af0

http://cgi.ebay.com/DENON-POA-3012C1-MULTI-CHANNEL-POWER-AMPLIFIER-/260592344250?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cac839cba

Then there are crap load of excellent AMP that you can connect strait from the sound card or via a Pre AMP if for louder performances. Marantz, Denon, Carver, Sonance, NAD and many more.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Cayin-A-100T-Integrated-Tube-Amplifier-AUDIOPHILE-/260592300373?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3cac82f155

Even real Aidiophile equipment is judged by performance, not merely costs. No, I don't think the 6 Grand a bud spent was wasted for his rig with a similar Tube AMP. I'm becomeing a big fan of Stereo Tube Amps and no, they don't need to cost more than $2,500.

The funny thing is that there were very minimal Room Accustics planned, No listening chair, none of his cables cost more than $10.99 and we've NEVER bought into these Gimmicks. I go back into at least the Quadrophonic 70's eara.

[crackhead2k]

I completely agree with you.
I think the best bang for teh buck is 2500, I sometimes buy used for cheap =P
All I know is good tubes don't burn out.

I do think if you do get a preamp it needs a good amp first. But then I'm running floorstanding spkers, needs more power.

[MattiasNYC]

Technically I could see some of the elevation/dampening stuff actually doing something depending on the system.. if a resonance frequency made a coil somewhere move it could possibly introduce artifacts somewhere along the chain of components..

at least thats my theory.. I wouldnt rely on their tech to do anything about it because none of what I read in any of the links went into any detail of whats actually happening.. haha.

I could be mistaken but I think the dampening has to do with trying to make sure that things that aren't supposed to resonate and thereby emit sound (acoustically) won't do it. So speaker stands for example are to be made so that they won't resonate and thereby actually emit sounds themselves. And some of these dampening materials put between speakers and stands supposedly achieve this somewhat.

[Donnie27]

I completely agree with you.
I think the best bang for teh buck is 2500, I sometimes buy used for cheap =P
All I know is good tubes don't burn out.

I do think if you do get a preamp it needs a good amp first. But then I'm running floorstanding spkers, needs more power.

Yepp!


""I could be mistaken but I think the dampening has to do with trying to make sure that things that aren't supposed to resonate and thereby emit sound (acoustically) won't do it. So speaker stands for example are to be made so that they won't resonate and thereby actually emit sounds themselves. And some of these dampening materials put between speakers and stands supposedly achieve this somewhat.

Yes, some stands are like using a "Tin-Can Telephone". Oh hardwoods I know guys using Dynamat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_can_telephone

I had some one come over as my sound system breaks many of the Audiophile rules. They normally leave shocked that it sounds so good, not award winning or anything, just very good. They're floor standers on the floor and the floor is carpeted.

[STEvil]

I could be mistaken but I think the dampening has to do with trying to make sure that things that aren't supposed to resonate and thereby emit sound (acoustically) won't do it. So speaker stands for example are to be made so that they won't resonate and thereby actually emit sounds themselves. And some of these dampening materials put between speakers and stands supposedly achieve this somewhat.

Yes, that is their intention. Their intention is not mine.

[Donnie27]

http://most-expensive.net/speakers

World’s Most Expensive Speakers!

[Donnie27]

More fun reading!

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=5252

[Donnie27]

If you need a laugh, from that same link but deserves its own link!

http://www.nathanmarciniak.com/elemental/

[Donnie27]

Juan said it better with this short comment that 3 pages could!


I came across this outfit after making the mistake of reading last month’s Hi-Fi News, where they excitedly reported the release of PWB’s (PWB is Peter W. Belt, sounds almost like a made up name spin on "Peter Built") Special One Drop Liquid (you rub it on all transparent materials in the room to stop non-forward facing light from getting through. Obviously). Even for a magazine which specializes in promoting the emperor’s new clothes, this was stupid beyond belief. Please keep reporting on Audiophile nonsense, it’s a massive industry, ripping off gullible rich people and slowing real audio progress.

Absolutely Quoted for Factual Content! Real R&D not only slows, folks who did want and didn't get improvements tend to not trust the REAL Hi-Fi industry and real good products get overlooked! On or with some of this stuff some kind of Mail or Wire Fraud needs to be introduced.

Some of this same $hit is going on the PC markets Intel and AMD (when they could) 1,000 up to $1,500 processors that might be 10% faster than models costing 400% lessl Asus started it with single socket $350 motherboards. Once idiots (IMHO) paid for them, the race to see who could trick "Enthusiasts with more money than brains" was on! I still feel like even my Prelude sound card sold for about $50 too much. I'd not believe the Parts and Labor was more than $30:rolleyes: