E-mail leak has Google threatening to leave China

[Speederlander]

E-mail leak has Google threatening to leave China

SAN FRANCISCO – Google Inc. said Tuesday it might end its operations in China after it discovered that the e-mail accounts of human rights activists had been breached.

The company disclosed in a blog post that it had detected a "highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China." Further investigation revealed that "a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists," Google said in the post written by Chief Legal Officer David Drummond.

Google did not specifically accuse the Chinese government. But the company added that it is "no longer willing to continue censoring our results" on its Chinese search engine, as the government requires. Google says the decision could force it to shut down its Chinese site and its offices in the country.

It's unclear how much of a blow to its business Google would suffer by pulling out of China. The country has the world's largest population of Internet users but research firm Analysys International said last year that Baidu.com handled 62 percent of Web searches in China compared with 29 percent for Google.

Clothilde Le Coz, Washington director for Reporters Without Borders, called Google's willingness to stop censoring results a positive step, but added it doesn't necessarily mean more information will be available to the average Chinese person.

"The Chinese government is one of the most efficient in terms of censoring the Web," she said. The media watchdog group has long criticized Google and other Internet companies for caving to China's censorship regime.

A spokesman for the Chinese consulate in San Francisco had no immediate comment.

Google first agreed to censor search results in China in 2006 when it created a version of its search engine bearing China's Web suffix, ".cn." Previously, Chinese-language results had been available through the company's main Google.com site.

To obtain its Chinese license, Google agreed to omit Web content that the country's government found objectionable. At the time Google executives said they struggled with how to reconcile the censorship concessions with the company's motto of "don't be evil." By then Yahoo had come under fire for giving the Chinese government account information of a Chinese journalist who was later convicted for violating state secrecy laws.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100112/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_google_china

[Darakian]

So... yahoo is now the most popular search engine in china? :p

[Speederlander]

So... yahoo is now the most popular search engine in china? :p

Baidu is I believe.

[wuttz]

self-preservation of the chinese communist party and its ruling elite compels that they do this, and many other human rights abuses, not to foreigners but to their own less privileged citizens.

too big to fail, chinese style. i <3 the tankman!

[Serpentarius]

Baidu is I believe.

the proud Baidu got hacked recently by some "Iranian Cyber Army" :rofl::rofl::ROTF::ROTF:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/6974129/Baidu-hacked-by-Iranian-Cyber-Army.html

[Aerwidh]

^ Pretty fun, actually :D

[Serra]

A billionaire walks into a bar and sits down next to a gorgeous woman. He does not waste any time and asks her "If I gave you a million dollars, would you sleep with me tonight?". The woman, knowing this man is good for the money readily agrees. While she is starting to get up the man stops her asking "Well, would you sleep with me for twenty dollars?". The woman gets huffy and asks the man "What kind of woman do you think I am?!".
The man tells her "We have already established what kind of woman you are, we are just negotiating on the price".

Except that in this case billionaire is the chinese market, the woman is google, and China is the bar.

Make no mistake - Google isn't leaving China because they're offended by censorship or other such humanitarian issues, they're leaving because there's less of a margin due to the administrative hassles that come along with being a large Western information dispenser in communist China. It's a royal pain to import a single piece of networking equipment to China for use in a satellite office from a western country, I can't imagine the pressure they put on Google. This kind of thing just bugs me because you know that if they leave it will be spun in the media as a courageous blow against censorship despite profits.

[Aerwidh]

You could very well be right about that, many western companies have had serious headaches caused by trying to enter the Chinese market due to such things as extremely strict regulations on various things.

Btw, good allegory about the billionaire and the woman.

[Scubar]

Hopefully the rest of the world will get sick of the Chinese government soon and do something about forcing its crappy communist ways out and free the people of China. Its a disgrace a country in this day and age can be run this way.

[Conumdrum]

A billionaire walks into a bar and sits down next to a gorgeous woman. He does not waste any time and asks her "If I gave you a million dollars, would you sleep with me tonight?". The woman, knowing this man is good for the money readily agrees. While she is starting to get up the man stops her asking "Well, would you sleep with me for twenty dollars?". The woman gets huffy and asks the man "What kind of woman do you think I am?!".
The man tells her "We have already established what kind of woman you are, we are just negotiating on the price".

Except that in this case billionaire is the chinese market, the woman is google, and China is the bar.

Make no mistake - Google isn't leaving China because they're offended by censorship or other such humanitarian issues, they're leaving because there's less of a margin due to the administrative hassles that come along with being a large Western information dispenser in communist China. It's a royal pain to import a single piece of networking equipment to China for use in a satellite office from a western country, I can't imagine the pressure they put on Google. This kind of thing just bugs me because you know that if they leave it will be spun in the media as a courageous blow against censorship despite profits.

Amen. It's all about profit, and I feel it's just fine. Google can't make money and drive up the stock price? Too bad for Chinas internet.

But it's great for another company to make billions when they reach the right mix/time.

Invest in the little things Goggle is starting there, not under the Goggle name.

[saaya]

i hope google does pull out of china... baidu sucks for anything non chinese and people will use google and other engines whenever they do want anything in non chinese or want any infos about somewhere outside of china. go and let the chinese government worry about censorship and let THEM breach privacy rules and establish their happy little 1984... google and yahoo and no other company should get involved in any of this... if china wants to step on human rights thats bad enough, others working hand in hand with them and looking the other way is not staying out of it, its helping them...

china needs cash and relations to the rest of the world, and how do they get it? through baiku? who the h3ll uses baiku outside of china?
china needs google and yahoo 10x more than they need china... i dont get why they are whoring themselves out like that :shrug:

[Teemax]

Bravo Google on the bold move!

[Serpentarius]

The country has the world's largest population of Internet users but research firm Analysys International said last year that Baidu.com handled 62 percent of Web searches in China compared with 29 percent for Google.

let's face it ... china's market is too competitive for Google ... and Google only got the smaller piece of cake out of this

and now Google playing politics .... google should just leave like a man, whining like that is improper


besides, it's all business .... it is expected that NOT the world is the same like our country ... every country has it particular rules and regulation, even taxes are different

[haylui]

China is too big to be over-looked
but at the other end, regulations are too strict, making a lot of western corporations losing money.
So, the smarter move is: go India

[generics_user]

Hopefully the rest of the world will get sick of the Chinese government soon and do something about forcing its crappy communist ways out and free the people of China. Its a disgrace a country in this day and age can be run this way.

china has nothing to do with communism, it's a 100% Capitalist country with a totalitarian regime...

And if you ever went to china you would've noticed that over 90% of all people there don't really care about free internet access or freedom of speech; in fact they know more about the world than you think and they have more important problems than caring abozut their freedom of speech; in time China will slowly give people more personal freedom inside of their country (regarding government critics) just like the soviet union did but there is no way to force a change form the outside ;)

[ulticool]

china has nothing to do with communism, it's a 100% Capitalist country with a totalitarian regime...

And if you ever went to china you would've noticed that over 90% of all people there don't really care about free internet access or freedom of speech; in fact they know more about the world than you think and they have more important problems than caring abozut their freedom of speech; in time China will slowly give people more personal freedom inside of their country (regarding government critics) just like the soviet union did but there is no way to force a change form the outside ;)

:rofl:

CPC/CCP

/end thread

[ethernal]

in time China will slowly give people more personal freedom inside of their country (regarding government critics) just like the soviet union did but there is no way to force a change form the outside ;)


That's part of the problem with China. That has been the thought and intentions of most Western policy torwards China since the mid-1980's. If we help make them prosperous they will open up. It hasn't happened. The government continues to be as totalitarian as possible and using their greater resources to strengthen their internal police state. The round the clock propaganda has created an extreme nationalist fervor amongst the majority of the younger Chinese.

I have worked in China. It's not the oldest Chinese who scare me - they tend to be generally reasonable. It's the young ones that I'm afraid of. That's not change in a positive direction.

[saaya]

And if you ever went to china you would've noticed that over 90% of all people there don't really care about free internet access or freedom of speech; in fact they know more about the world than you think and they have more important problems than caring abozut their freedom of speech; in time China will slowly give people more personal freedom inside of their country (regarding government critics) just like the soviet union did but there is no way to force a change form the outside ;)
isnt it funny that you will end up with almost the same result in the us or europe? ;)
everywhere in the world peopledont seem to care about freedom of speech and privacy etc... yeah sure they will rumble on about it for hours but what will they do to make sure things are done properly? nothing... people sign up to gmail and other services giving away all of their private information... they even ACTIVELY support those who take their freedoms an rights away...

still better than china etc where somebody is ripping those rights out of your hand tho :D
but overall, the difference between china and the west isnt nearly as great as people think...
people think its 1984 like, and while in some regards thats true, in those same regards its secretly happening in the west too... its just hidden well in the us (government and companies spying on its citizens/customers etc)

just think of the US no flight list... thats something i would rather have expected in china than in the us...
there is no legal support for the no flight list, nothing you can do about it, nobody to appeal to... and depending on what your job is, getting on there "by accident" might very well ruin your carreer... the land of the free? yeah right...
most people seem to have no idea of how free the western countries really are... its just an illusion and its getting worse day by day...

[Chrono Detector]

I'm Chinese myself and I think China's PRC communist leaders need to GTFO. I mean, I don't understand them, they are always censoring and trying to suppress people's freedom and rights. They are the ones who are destroying the country, and NOT trying to make it a better place.

[zanzabar]

so google gives account info and emails in china from human rights people but they also give all emails to who ever can buy them affter 90days on the personal accounts and they do the same with chat, voice and search history. i dont get it, people bash google for doing this in china but they sell the stuff its not like the yahoo, ask or MS were they only give that out under a court order or warrant and dont keep search info with unique ids or ip addresses for users.

[saaya]

I'm Chinese myself and I think China's PRC communist leaders need to GTFO. I mean, I don't understand them, they are always censoring and trying to suppress people's freedom and rights. They are the ones who are destroying the country, and NOT trying to make it a better place.
yeah i agree... but not all of them are bad actually... there are good guys in the communist party... the people who brought all the change of the past decade or two are good guys, and they are luckily slowly pushing the old school communist fascists out...

china has opened up a LOT in recent years... i really have a lot of hope that china is going to stop their weird and 1984 like policies... the trend definately points in that direction... they are even slowly moving to a somewhat democratic system with elections... so far all parties are communist, lol, but thats already a huge improvement over having no choice at all... and the state competition they introduced means workforce and capital is no longer fixed as well, and they HAVE to treat people half good at least, otherwise the workforce and the capital will move to another state or region that does... and from what ive been told by friends who live and work in china, conditions really have improved a lot... they are still way beyond what any westerner would accept though lol :D

but still... i thougt really bad about the PRC when i first visited china... but i gotta say, just think about how things could get done ideally, how things should be organized ideally, how things should progress ideally... and really, at getting things done and improving the country and life for its citizens, china is AT LEAST as good and efficient as western democracies...

there will be a breaking point in some years when china reaches the point at which demand for democracy will be so big it cant be supressed anymore... that will be a critical moment... either china will continue to evolve and become a democracy, or the ones in power will hold an iron grip to it and wont let it go, and china will fall back into fascism and a plain old dictatorship or oligarchy... which would trigger the long term fall of china as a world power imo...

most people dont know that taiwan for example had not had any elections until a decade ago... taiwan was a ruled by a very very strict dictatorship/oligarchy until the 90s! still, people here are relatively free compared to the west, theres almost no difference now between the west and taiwan in regards to freedom of speech and privacy...

i think the same thing will happen in china... china can actually learn a lot from taiwan in that regard... taiwans transition to democracy was very smooth and almost entirely peaceful...

the most bizarre thing is how people think china is such a strict 1984 like regime, and think its a nighjtmare to live in china... when actually its not nearly as bad as they think, AND, all while their own western countries are slowly and steadily doing the same as china!
australia has launched their own national firewall, germany and france and the us are prepping their own firewalls, in the us and france companies can cut people off the net if they want and basically silence them... and everywhere around the world people use skype and google voice and dont spend a single thougt on the loss of privacy they are pushing not only upon themselves but everybody else around them as well! if my mom uses google voice its not just her private data google and googles partners get access too, they wil get a lot of data about me, my father, my sister, her neighbours, my girlfriend, my sisters boyfriend, etc etc etc...

still people see google as somewhat of a white knight, and the western world as a disneyland utopia, while china is an evil dark empire... :D

[MTd2]

The usual:

Google cannot get profit and cries. US government picks up the line and use whatever it can to make look China seem bad, because China growing means less american imperialism, and thus less profits. So, I am pretty happy how things are going on in China. If they can surpass USA in science, I will be very happy that there won't be any more reason to like US.

[MTd2]

most people dont know that taiwan for example had not had any elections until a decade ago... taiwan was a ruled by a very very strict dictatorship/oligarchy until the 90s! still, people here are relatively free compared to the west, theres almost no difference now between the west and taiwan in regards to freedom of speech and privacy...

The same with South Korea until late 1980's and in Japan until it collapsed after the nukes.

But what is it really democracy as it happens ? Most of people may have a virtual freedom of speech or choices, but the media is dominated by economic interests anyway. So, instead of a person being commanded by a party, it is commanded by an alienated mass of zombies.

The days when people fight with ideology for better quality of life are long gone. People are just happy with what they have, even if that is a tranquilizer of illusion. Nevermind that that their human brothers are suffering, unless media tells them so.

[earth.razer]

That's part of the problem with China. That has been the thought and intentions of most Western policy torwards China since the mid-1980's. If we help make them prosperous they will open up. It hasn't happened. The government continues to be as totalitarian as possible and using their greater resources to strengthen their internal police state. The round the clock propaganda has created an extreme nationalist fervor amongst the majority of the younger Chinese.

I have worked in China. It's not the oldest Chinese who scare me - they tend to be generally reasonable. It's the young ones that I'm afraid of. That's not change in a positive direction.

You obviously didn't experience much during your stay in China. I've lived in China since 1990 up to 2001, and visited frequently since then. The change in almost every aspect of China has been astonishing. The government has certainly opened up a lot and the people more aware of the world around them. The current generation of Chinese is probably the proudest generation in the past two centuries, and they have good reason to be. They live in an era where the influence of China grows almost daily, they saw their lives lifted from poverty and they love their leaders for doing it. They understand their government has flaws but its accomplishments far outweighs the losses. This is why younger Chinese are often outraged by the negative accusations the west makes about China.

The Chinese support their government not because they don't understand democracy, they just don't see much in it. Most Chinese international students I know support the Chinese government and think the west should stop pointing fingers at China.

[FischOderAal]

If google pulls out of china it definitely won't be because they are offended by the chinese government. :ROTF:


Most Chinese international students I know support the Chinese government and think the west should stop pointing fingers at China.

Why? Your worst enemy is your best friend that doesn't tell you your weaknesses.

Constructive criticism should be normal between countries. Too bad many countries don't like to get criticism, especially the US and A. "Oh no, France is against our war, those $%!§! Let's call french fries freedom fries from now on! That'll teach them!" :rolleyes:

[earth.razer]

If google pulls out of china it definitely won't be because they are offended by the chinese government. :ROTF:



Why? Your worst enemy is your best friend that doesn't tell you your weaknesses.

Constructive criticism should be normal between countries. Too bad many countries don't like to get criticism, especially the US and A. "Oh no, France is against our war, those $%!§! Let's call french fries freedom fries from now on! That'll teach them!" :rolleyes:

I was stating an observation, not trying to justify it. I agree constructive criticism should be respected and valued, unfortunately that's rarely the case. I guess people just don't like being told their are wrong.

[Aerwidh]

I guess people just don't like being told their are wrong.

Sad, but true :(

[ethernal]

You obviously didn't experience much during your stay in China. I've lived in China since 1990 up to 2001, and visited frequently since then. The change in almost every aspect of China has been astonishing. The government has certainly opened up a lot and the people more aware of the world around them. The current generation of Chinese is probably the proudest generation in the past two centuries, and they have good reason to be. They live in an era where the influence of China grows almost daily, they saw their lives lifted from poverty and they love their leaders for doing it. They understand their government has flaws but its accomplishments far outweighs the losses. This is why younger Chinese are often outraged by the negative accusations the west makes about China.

I will admit that my first visit to China was in 2004. I do not have the depth of your time in China. I recognize that things are probably more open in China now then they were 20 years ago - but (in my opinion) only by virtue of technology. The thing that is concerning is how viciously the Chinese government is still trying to not only maintain their grip but strengthen it.

Maybe I'm wrong. But I just know that back in late 2008 I decided to quit traveling to and conducting business in China because of what I saw and experienced. Makes me feel a bit like I wasted my time learning Mandarin but those are the breaks.

I may have a different standard of rights than most people - I am appalled by my own country's (US) erosion of rights in terms of our paramilitary actions against drug related activity, limiting of the right to assembly and free speech, and domestic spying done in the name of reducing the already minuscule risk of a terror attack.


The Chinese support their government not because they don't understand democracy, they just don't see much in it. Most Chinese international students I know support the Chinese government and think the west should stop pointing fingers at China.

That's what happens when you are brought up in a country where you are told that the government is a great and unflappable entity through propaganda and censorship. I do not mean to invoke Godwin's law but I can assure you the same things would have been said by an Aryan youth in Nazi Germany studying abroad in England. It's hard to develop free thought and rational analysis when you are being fed an incorrect dataset as a child. Nationalism can be compared to religion: once you're taught as a youth it can be hard to shake off regardless of substantial evidence against your beliefs.

I know that East Asia has a very collectivist cultural tendency relative to the West. I have no problem with that. But there is a difference between having a government based upon collectivist ideals and having a totalitarian, authoritarian regime leading the world's largest country down the wrong path.

Anyways - I know politics aren't allowed on this forum so I didn't mean to run off on a tangent - but the point remains that China still has a lot of work to do. As they continue to grow in prosperity they can only use the "well, we're a developing nation" excuse for so long. It begins to fall apart when they can spend hundreds of millions to create a surveillance system in their cities to monitor every foot of street. They have the resources to open up in a controlled manner - they just have no intentions of doing so.

[serialk11r]

What saaya said I found pretty interesting coming from someone in Taiwan. At school there are some Taiwan kids who are really hostile towards mainlanders. A few years ago in PE class this kid and I were talking all right and then I think I said the word "Chinese" or something in some random context, then he was like "Wait are you Chinese? Mainlander? F*** YOU YOU LITTLE COMMUNIST B**** ". I'm sure he's just an extreme example though, as most of them that I have met are pretty nice, and either don't care much, or try to see the positive side.

As an ABC with mainlander parents, and a pretty strong connection to China, I do feel pretty ashamed that so many things go wrong in China, but I also think that as a whole, there are probably less things wrong with China than there are with America. My grandfather told me that during the Cultural Revolution, he was beaten by Red Guards, and he lost all his family property that they had spent generations saving up. However he still has a pretty positive attitude towards the government, and he has faith that things will be changing for the better. He lived in America for a long period of time as well, and honestly it seems to me that he is more disgusted with American society.

I don't think you can say that people are being brainwashed from a young age. I'm pretty sure all my relatives and what not feel like there is a lot of room for improvement. However change takes time, and there are those who resist change for their own selfish reasons, but in general everyone supports a more open society.

Anyways back on topic I'm sad to see this happening with Google. I think I can understand the idea of censoring things to some extent, it does reduce some trouble in cases, but if they are trying to hide something that is a real problem, then they have no excuse to be doing so.

[Speederlander]

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=243222

[saaya]

The same with South Korea until late 1980's and in Japan until it collapsed after the nukes.

But what is it really democracy as it happens ? Most of people may have a virtual freedom of speech or choices, but the media is dominated by economic interests anyway. So, instead of a person being commanded by a party, it is commanded by an alienated mass of zombies.

The days when people fight with ideology for better quality of life are long gone. People are just happy with what they have, even if that is a tranquilizer of illusion. Nevermind that that their human brothers are suffering, unless media tells them so.well i think people today are just not bothered enough by restrictions to really care... there are enough things to distract people from the loss of some personal freedoms they dont notice immediatly... people will only get outraged when they feel their own privacy and freedom of speech affected directly... its like the frog in a pot... put a frog in a pot of hot water and it jumps out, put it in a pot with cold water and slowly heat up the water and itll happily sit in the pot until it dies boiling alive...


You obviously didn't experience much during your stay in China. I've lived in China since 1990 up to 2001, and visited frequently since then. The change in almost every aspect of China has been astonishing. The government has certainly opened up a lot and the people more aware of the world around them. The current generation of Chinese is probably the proudest generation in the past two centuries, and they have good reason to be. They live in an era where the influence of China grows almost daily, they saw their lives lifted from poverty and they love their leaders for doing it. They understand their government has flaws but its accomplishments far outweighs the losses. This is why younger Chinese are often outraged by the negative accusations the west makes about China.

The Chinese support their government not because they don't understand democracy, they just don't see much in it. Most Chinese international students I know support the Chinese government and think the west should stop pointing fingers at China.id say 90% of the population, the younger one especially, in china and in taiwan, dont care about politics at all... they care a lot less about politics than people in the west...
they only care about it when they feel affected directly in a bad way, and since they grew up without too much personal freedom, they dont really notice the lack of freedom all that much.



Constructive criticism should be normal between countries. Too bad many countries don't like to get criticism, especially the US and A. "Oh no, France is against our war, those $%!§! Let's call french fries freedom fries from now on! That'll teach them!" :rolleyes:well if it is constructive criticism i dont think chinese students would get offended... its probably an american student with an image of china as a nationwide concentration camp, asking the chinese student how he managed to escape and how many of his family members died or stuff like that :D


What saaya said I found pretty interesting coming from someone in Taiwan. At school there are some Taiwan kids who are really hostile towards mainlanders. A few years ago in PE class this kid and I were talking all right and then I think I said the word "Chinese" or something in some random context, then he was like "Wait are you Chinese? Mainlander? F*** YOU YOU LITTLE COMMUNIST B**** ". I'm sure he's just an extreme example though, as most of them that I have met are pretty nice, and either don't care much, or try to see the positive side.

As an ABC with mainlander parents, and a pretty strong connection to China, I do feel pretty ashamed that so many things go wrong in China, but I also think that as a whole, there are probably less things wrong with China than there are with America. My grandfather told me that during the Cultural Revolution, he was beaten by Red Guards, and he lost all his family property that they had spent generations saving up. However he still has a pretty positive attitude towards the government, and he has faith that things will be changing for the better. He lived in America for a long period of time as well, and honestly it seems to me that he is more disgusted with American society.

I don't think you can say that people are being brainwashed from a young age. I'm pretty sure all my relatives and what not feel like there is a lot of room for improvement. However change takes time, and there are those who resist change for their own selfish reasons, but in general everyone supports a more open society.

Anyways back on topic I'm sad to see this happening with Google. I think I can understand the idea of censoring things to some extent, it does reduce some trouble in cases, but if they are trying to hide something that is a real problem, then they have no excuse to be doing so.
thats very uncommon... most taiwanese dont like mainlanders, and its pretty hilarious from a western point of view :lol:

TAIWANESE AND CHINESE:
taiwanese dont like chinese for the very same reason many westerners look down upon taiwanese :D

taiwanese tend to be more ignorant, egoistic, antisocial, bad-mannered, simple minded and naive than westerners. mainlanders are even worse, and the taiwanese look down upon THEM for those reason :lol:

to give you some hard examples, taiwanese tend to speak really loud and create a lot of noise, walking around, moving things etc, even if they are in a quiet environment or its late at night. its not really that they know they annoy people by making a lot of noise, its more that they just dont think about it... they arent used to watch out and think for people around them. for example, waking somebody up when hes sleeping to ask him a random unimportant question is no big deal in taiwan... most people here wake each other up for even stupid pointless questions, and its no big deal, most taiwanese dont even get upset or offended by it... at the same time you see taiwanese sleeping a lot, especially students. they will go to mcodnnalds or some other restaurant and just lean forward on the table and sleep for a few hours... in some restaurants you can even see the kitchen staff lying down on the restaurant benches and taking a lunch nap for an hour or two... while their customers sit and eat next to them... :D

another thing is morale... taiwanese arent really lazy, they are more... comfortable id say... some are veeery comfortable :D
they will work, they just work VERY slow and get distracted VERY easily by useless stuff :D when something needs to be fixed you will usually see half a dozen people show up, and one will work on the problem while the rest watches him, gives him advice, or stands somewhere at the side talking about something else :D but they DO get the job done...
in china things are worse, most mainlanders will work at a snails pace IF AT ALL, if they are not supervised or THINK they are not supervised... theres a chinese proverb that says "only the blind and stupid have to work hard" and it basically means that only stupid and blind workers will not see the supervisor coming and checking their progress, while lazy workers will simply speed up and pretend to work hard whenever they see the boss approaching. this explains working morable in taiwan and china pretty well, but the japanese influence in taiwan has improved things a lot... in china you really NEED lots of supervisors... there are many taiwanese who work in china as supervisors, their job is nothing else but watching over a group of mainlanders and make sure they actually work :D
but again, its not really something you can blame people for, they grew up in a communist regime where hard work is NOT rewarded... so why bother right? :)

another example is driving or walking around on the streets. taiwanese tend to only think for themselves, and not think where somebody else will walk or drive, or why somebody is moving in one direction etc. its very common that taiwanese will just stand still all the sudden or stop their car in the center of the street, because they just remembered something or they want to suddenly go somewhere else. they block the way for dozens of people or cars, but not really on purpose, they just dont think about anybody else... they only think about themselves. to some degree this is bad manners and lack of manners and "being civilized", but to some degree its also a result of growing up and living in a massive society with thousands of people around you all the time. if you think for everybody else and try to get out of everybodies way, youd be running in circles or wouldnt ever reach your destination. ok, thats an exaggeration, but you get the point :D

chinese are even worse than this, they tend to spit on the floor, even inside buildings and buses and trains, they spit at walls and trees and ON (not in!) trashcans etc, they not only block each other sometimes, but even run into each other frequently, and its not offensive, its normal...
and chinese mainlanders talk even louder than taiwanese... its almost like they are screaming... and whenever it gets quiet, suddenly everybody will start to talk about random stuff, really loud... like they feel uncofmrotable if there is no noise around them :lol:

those are just generalizations though, i have met a lot of taiwanese and mainlanders that arent like this AT ALL... but they usually agree that most people act like this, and are a bit annoyed by it as well :D

[SocketMan]

If you want to "play hard to get",you do it before getting down on you knees
and banding over for Ch. government.:lastweek::google: :p:

[Aerwidh]

in some restaurants you can even see the kitchen staff lying down on the restaurant benches and taking a lunch nap for an hour or two... while their customers sit and eat next to them... :D

What? That must look really strange to Westerners and the like.



this explains working morable in taiwan and china pretty well, but the japanese influence in taiwan has improved things a lot...
Yeah, Japan, where instead some people occasionally sleep over at their jobs because it's not entirely polite to leave before the boss does :D

[saaya]

What? That must look really strange to Westerners and the like.

Yeah, Japan, where instead some people occasionally sleep over at their jobs because it's not entirely polite to leave before the boss does :D
yes, it looks very weird... and its very annoying... especially when they snore :lol:

about japan... afaik many japanese sleep at work or at a hotel or hostel close to work cause public transport shuts down at some point. japan is really weird when it comes to opening hours... tokyo international airport closes at 1am... imagine that... an entire frickin international airport completely shuts down 0_o i just didnt believe it and kept asking cause i thougt it MUST be a translation problem... how can an international airport just... shut down... well its true, and its a really bizarre sight :D

and for some reason the public transport train system in tokyo stops at 1am or so as well, so the last trains are usually PACKED and youll see people running like they are hounted by demons to catch the last train :lol:
cause if you miss it, youll need to take a taxi or stay in a hotel, and taxi costs you like 50-100$ easily, and hotel isnt much cheaper even if its a very basic one... :D

its funny, i grew up in a 1 million small city in germany and while we didnt have 24/7 public transport around 10 years ago, even back then the last trains and buses would usually go at around 3am and the first one would start again at 6... so it was a really short break.

another funny thing in japan is prostitution :D
prostitution is illegal in japan, but hey, everybody knows how incredibly perverted at least some japanese are :D
so there must be prositution, and sure enough, there is...
it took me a while to figure out why all those pimped up hot chics were standing around on some streets while it was freezing outside.
and curiously those streets had several flower shops in them that sold flowers at outrageous prices... you apparently buy flowers and erach bundle of flowers stands for a different service, or maybe girl, i didnt get it... the girls then return the flowers to the shop to get their money i think... i didnt bother to ask, its really weird, i didnt need to know the details to get a raised eyebrow and a good laugh out of this :D

[Aerwidh]

Yeah, there are many things in Japan that are funny :D
They make some good products there, though :)

[aintz]

sorry nobody in china cares.

human rights lol, i hear its easy to manage a country with more than a billion people. lets see, the democratic India's growth is nowhere close to china. damn, those "communists" must be doing something right.




That's what happens when you are brought up in a country where you are told that the government is a great and unflappable entity through propaganda and censorship.

so i must be brain washed right? even though ive received most of my education (grade 5-university) in canada. such hypocrites talking about human rights, so apparently chinese people cant be patriotic and voice their opinions because they are all brain washed by propaganda LOL.

side note
on your alleged trip to china, how did the governments "steel grip" affect you?

[earth.razer]

That's what happens when you are brought up in a country where you are told that the government is a great and unflappable entity through propaganda and censorship. I do not mean to invoke Godwin's law but I can assure you the same things would have been said by an Aryan youth in Nazi Germany studying abroad in England. It's hard to develop free thought and rational analysis when you are being fed an incorrect dataset as a child. Nationalism can be compared to religion: once you're taught as a youth it can be hard to shake off regardless of substantial evidence against your beliefs. .

I have to disagree with you here. A generation ago young Chinese in the late 80s-90s were much more pro-west and anti-government then their current counterpart. The pro-democracy Tiananmen Square student protesters also grew up in tight propaganda and censorship that were imo much more effective in limiting the amount of information that reached students. These protested had very little means of getting western views, they had no internet. Yet tight propaganda didn't stop them from critical thinking. The current young Chinese are in a much better situation to develop their own worldview if they so choose, yet they came up with a different conclusion about their government. I believe this is a result of them seeing a much different China than their predecessors, who were lucky to have food on the table.

[Speederlander]

human rights lol, i hear its easy to manage a country with more than a billion people. lets see, the democratic India's growth is nowhere close to china. damn, those "communists" must be doing something right.
So their population size justifies their behavior toward their people? :shrug:
And China is no longer remotely communist. They are authoritarian but not communist.