ATI XGP breakout box lives!! Mobile Eyefinity!

[Tenknics]

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/Data/2010_1_7/AMD-showcases-5870-Eyefinity-XGP-box-on-a-Ferrari-netbook/AMD_XGP_5870_675.jpg


"AMD launched XGP way back at Computex Taipei 2008 but the company only got a single design win with Fujitsu Siemens, but the luck is now turning. On CES, AMD showed an Acer Ferrari One, a hybrid between a netbook and a notebook, connected to a small black box that featured a DVI, three DisplayPorts and a HDMI, as well as two USB ports and an external power connector with a 35W adapter connected to it. The inside was consisted out of 1GB of GDDR5 memory and a Juniper GPU. "


source (http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2010/1/7/amd-showcases-5870-eyefinity-xgp-box-on-a-ferrari-netbook.aspx)

I always wondered what happened to this great idea, and now its back and better then it ever was!

[god_43]

portable self enclosed gpu card? if so......sweet, i can take my power with me around the world!

[tajoh111]

I love the external graphics card part(is it one those, 35 watts is kind of low). The eyefinity portion makes no sense those. Wherever there is an eyefinity setup, there is typically a monster Desktop attached. Additionally, how well could a juniper card run an eyefinity setup.

[Tenknics]

Yup its great isnt it? Although the first XGP incarnation used desktop cards, which made sense because it gave you desktop GPU performance for a laptop..But now this new one uses a Mobility Radeon..I guess this makes sense if the target market is for netbooks or small laptops. It would be nice if they offered a CTO of these break out boxes with whatever GPU you wanted.



Additionally, how well could a juniper card run an eyefinity setup.

According to Theo, dunno if you peaked at the article, Tom Clancy's H.A.V.X. on three displays in Eyefinity configuration was "sweet." take that for what it is, but if it wasnt playable I dont think he would have said that.

Also its a shame AMD is using the 5770 juniper core and labeling it as 5870 for mobile..Reminds me of nV (and yes I know ATI's always done with this with their mobile parts)

[miahallen]

This was a stupid idea the first time...and it's still stupid. The market is SO small, this will never make business sense :rolleyes:

[Tenknics]

I'd buy one, as it fits my needs perfectly.. but I guess that makes me stupid..:(

[Aberration]

It would only make sense if I could play the video my laptop screen.

As it is my Asus G51 will have to do.

[LordEC911]

I love the external graphics card part(is it one those, 35 watts is kind of low). The eyefinity portion makes no sense those. Wherever there is an eyefinity setup, there is typically a monster Desktop attached. Additionally, how well could a juniper card run an eyefinity setup.
Not for everyone...
Some people take their work lappies everywhere, work and home.
I know of a few companies that are only issuing laptops to their employees.

[tajoh111]

Not for everyone...
Some people take their work lappies everywhere, work and home.
I know of a few companies that are only issuing laptops to their employees.

Eyefinity is great as a work related multiscreen application. Perhaps even more so for laptops. But for laptop gaming it fails unless they put a 5870 into the box and somehow speed up the communication between the laptop cpu and the external videocard. External videocards have failed for this very reason.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/01/05/amds_ati_radeon_eyefinity_performance_review/10

They used a core i7 at 3.6ghz which is faster than anything in a laptop and they still found the 5750 and 5770 unplayable. This thing is using only 35 watts. I expect even worse performance than the former mentioned two cards.

Work laptops typically are not the monster rigs used for gaming, additionally many work places don't allow the installation of games. I would also seriously hope, that anyone that is serious about gaming to get a eyefinity setup, would be serious enough to by another computer to game on other than their work computer.

If someone can afford a eyefinity setup at home, it better be attached to a desktop.

[Tenknics]

They used a core i7 at 3.6ghz which is faster than anything in a laptop and they still found the 5750 and 5770 unplayable. This thing is using only 35 watts. I expect even worse performance than the former mentioned two cards.
.

They said it was unplayable at the max eyefinity resolution, 5760x1200. Im sure it would fair better at other Eyefinity resolutions. Also keep in mind eyefinity is also in its infancy, like CF and SLi once were. With time and driver updates, it will only get better!:yepp:

Also, Im more interested in XGP for single screen gaming..eyefinity was just a bonus.

[zalbard]

Wonder how hot this thing gets. But yeah, it's definitely nice for those people who want to switch to laptop 100%.

[MrMojoZ]

Also its a shame AMD is using the 5770 juniper core and labeling it as 5870 for mobile..Reminds me of nV (and yes I know ATI's always done with this with their mobile parts)

You'd have a point if AMD was resusing 4xxx series cores ane relabeling them as 5xxx mobile parts. They aren't doing this.

[Aaronage]

I like this tech but i just don't see the market for it.

A lot of notebooks offer switchable graphics these days (e.g. Macbook Pro 9400m and 9600GT), that solution is just more elegant, no extra boxes or cables required. I imagine we'll see laptops with 4200IGP and 5800M switchable or similar, that would make this XGP business look silly :P

[Helloworld_98]

I like this tech but i just don't see the market for it.

A lot of notebooks offer switchable graphics these days (e.g. Macbook Pro 9400m and 9600GT), that solution is just more elegant, no extra boxes or cables required. I imagine we'll see laptops with 4200IGP and 5800M switchable or similar, that would make this XGP business look silly :P

the idea is,

take the lappy out and about for work, then get home plug everything in, and play games on your TV, same principle with the Alienware M11x.

[Manicdan]

external GPUs should be more common i think. whats so tough about a docking station port to have the same specs as a PCIex16 slot? i think whats really needed is a docking station with a real slot so you can just change out the GPU to whatever you want.

[highoctane]

This has been tried before and it didn't gain any traction. I love the idea of ext discrete for use with a laptop but odds are simply buying a single laptop with equivalent 5770 power from the get go would make better sense if that is what you need. It should be a matter of just adding an extra output to the laptop for three screen capabilities since there's usually two outputs already.

I think there is a market for this but I don't see this becoming a mainstream item really, more specialized niches and techies.

[DeathReborn]

You'd have a point if AMD was resusing 4xxx series cores ane relabeling them as 5xxx mobile parts. They aren't doing this.

Actually they are:

5145 - 80SP DX10.1 (RV710 I think) = HD43x0 & 45x0

5165 - 320SP DX10.1 (RV730 I think) = HD46x0

[Aaronage]

@Helloword_98
I get the idea, but this is all possible already with less hassle, the only benefit i see is a meager performance gain from using a high end XGP over a high end discrete part. With siwtchable graphics you get great battery life from an IGP and great performance when plugged in from the discrete.

Guess it comes down to the needs of the user, maybe there are some situations where this is ideal but i can't think of any to be honest.

[LordEC911]

Actually they are:

5145 - 80SP DX10.1 (RV710 I think) = HD43x0 & 45x0

5165 - 320SP DX10.1 (RV730 I think) = HD46x0
Due to pressure from OEMs since they cannot meet the high volume demand for the lowend mobile market thanks to TSMC's capacity woes, though it seems that they finally got it fixed at the end of '09.

[Manicdan]

I get the idea, but this is all possible already with less hassle, the only benefit i see is a meager performance gain from using a high end XGP over a high end discrete part. With siwtchable graphics you get great battery life from an IGP and great performance when plugged in from the discrete.

Guess it comes down to the needs of the user, maybe there are some situations where this is ideal but i can't think of any to be honest.

and size too, external graphics lets you have alot more options with unlimited cooling space. lots of laptops use 2 gpus, one for gaming and an IGP for battery life, but those are generally mid range mobile gpus, less common on official gaming machines. its a great step in the direction, but external graphics really opens up opportunity to do what you want.

[Aaronage]

@Manicdan
Good point, never thought of it that way :)

It will be interesting to see where XGP goes in the future, maybe find other applications for external PCI-E devices.

[Manicdan]

@Manicdan
Good point, never thought of it that way :)

would it be arrogant to put that quote in my sig? naaaa

[Serra]

Here's what I would like to see:
- A connection to an external box which causes the laptop to bypass its internal GPU when in use
- This external box has a PCI-E slot in it for a consumer video card and preferably a power connector or two
- Optionally this box can be designed to fit mobile GPU's, which I would also love to see sold as discrete parts
- Video cards can be put in the box and connected to additional power as required

This would help bring the cost of the box itself down to about $15 and make it upgradeable and more useful.

[Manicdan]

^exactly what i was picturing, with a better description than i could give

[Andrew LB]

Due to pressure from OEMs since they cannot meet the high volume demand for the lowend mobile market thanks to TSMC's capacity woes, though it seems that they finally got it fixed at the end of '09.

Volume of current .40nm chips has nothing to do with it since it's a fact ATi has consistently done this in the past. Please stop making excuses for ATi doing the exact same thing nVidia does, especially since you have spent an uncountable amount of posts ridiculing nV for this practice.


As for the product in question, I'm not certain this will work properly considering the bandwidth issues by running the power of a 16x PCIe card through a laptops 1x PCIe expresscard port or whatever they plan on using to increase the bandwidth.

[DeathReborn]

Here's what I would like to see:
- A connection to an external box which causes the laptop to bypass its internal GPU when in use
- This external box has a PCI-E slot in it for a consumer video card and preferably a power connector or two
- Optionally this box can be designed to fit mobile GPU's, which I would also love to see sold as discrete parts
- Video cards can be put in the box and connected to additional power as required

This would help bring the cost of the box itself down to about $15 and make it upgradeable and more useful.

That would be awesome to see but the really galling thing is, the PCI-e External cables were ready in 2007 but we still see nothing of them, it's a downright disgrace.

[miahallen]

I'd buy one, as it fits my needs perfectly.. but I guess that makes me stupid..:(

Not at all what I'm saying :shakes:

It makes them stupid for wasting money developing something that there is such a small market for. If they do bring it to market, it will make a lot of people very happy, just not enough to turn a profit. :rolleyes:

Who knows, I could be wrong, THAT happens all the time :yepp: :p:

[Manicdan]

if theres only one offering for a small niche, it might be sold enough times to make a profit,

other times its simply marketing, loose a little money but show off some cool product (remember that tiny sony OLED screen that was like 4000$)

[Dragy2k]

great idea .....for those on a limited budget its gonna be great ...as long as the internals are upgradeable......i cant see a prob .

[LordEC911]

Here's what I would like to see:
- A connection to an external box which causes the laptop to bypass its internal GPU when in use
- This external box has a PCI-E slot in it for a consumer video card and preferably a power connector or two
- Optionally this box can be designed to fit mobile GPU's, which I would also love to see sold as discrete parts
- Video cards can be put in the box and connected to additional power as required

This would help bring the cost of the box itself down to about $15 and make it upgradeable and more useful.
Bolded isn't going to happen. Not a big enough margin there to think about selling discrete. Throwing AIB's, distro's and retailers into the mix with laptop GPUs would be a huge headache for such a small ROI.


Volume of current .40nm chips has nothing to do with it since it's a fact ATi has consistently done this in the past. Please stop making excuses for ATi doing the exact same thing nVidia does, especially since you have spent an uncountable amount of posts ridiculing nV for this practice.

As for the product in question, I'm not certain this will work properly considering the bandwidth issues by running the power of a 16x PCIe card through a laptops 1x PCIe expresscard port or whatever they plan on using to increase the bandwidth.
Yes, it has happened before in the lowend...
I don't ever recall it happening 2-3 times to the same chip in the midrange/highend market...

I see almost no ridicule in my posts on Nvidia renaming. If you can actually find one of me outright ridiculing Nvidia for their unethical practice of renaming the same chip 2-3times, changing generations and just generally fing up their naming convention along with feature set for their own personal gain, please post a quote of me.

I have found the few that I can recall off the top of my head...
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3475529&highlight=renaming#post3475529
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2936179&highlight=renaming#post2936179

Edit- Also, if you could please post some more info, I wouldn't mind refreshing my memory on AMD/ATi's renaming fiasco in the mobile arena since I only recall the situation somewhat vaguely.

Now, please focus on the topic at hand.

[Tenknics]

Edit- Also, if you could please post some more info, I wouldn't mind refreshing my memory on AMD/ATi's renaming fiasco in the mobile arena since I only recall the situation somewhat vaguely.

They do it a lot with mid to lower mainstream parts, but obviously its not near as bad or dramatic as what nV does, they still technically do it. I know they have to meet a power envelope for laptops but even if they use the same core (like for m4870 is a castrated desktop 4870 etc) and castrate it, I still feel like its misleading. Anyway, here are some examples:

Mobility Radeon HD 4830 = RV740
Radeon HD 4830 = RV770 LE

Mobility Radeon HD 4860 = RV740
Radeon HD 4860 = RV790 GT

Mobility Radeon HD 5870 = Juniper XT
Radeon HD 5870 = Cypress XT

Mobility Radeon HD 5850 = Juniper Pro
Radeon HD 5850 = Cypress Pro

Mobility Radeon HD 5770 = Redwood XT
Radeon HD 5770 = Juniper XT

Mobility Radeon HD 5750 = Redwood Pro
Radeon HD 5750 = Juniper LE

:up:

[AndrewZorn]

wow, i thought these never existed because it was a dumb idea, not because it just wasn't ready yet...

this must be for those who want a small inexpensive computer, yet also want to lug around a second device with a second power adapter that is not even mobile, a second device that also surely bridges the price gap between the cheaper and more expensive notebook...
and after all this, cant even play it on the integrated screen? yeah, i have monitors all over the place too, 4 of them, where i go with my laptop.

this is beyond impractical.

[LordEC911]

They do it a lot with mid to lower mainstream parts, but obviously its not near as bad or dramatic as what nV does, they still technically do it. I know they have to meet a power envelope for laptops but even if they use the same core (like for m4870 is a castrated desktop 4870 etc) and castrate it, I still feel like its misleading. Anyway, here are some examples:

Mobility Radeon HD 4830 = RV740
Radeon HD 4830 = RV770 LE

Mobility Radeon HD 4860 = RV740
Radeon HD 4860 = RV790 GT

Mobility Radeon HD 5870 = Juniper XT
Radeon HD 5870 = Cypress XT

Mobility Radeon HD 5850 = Juniper Pro
Radeon HD 5850 = Cypress Pro

Mobility Radeon HD 5770 = Redwood XT
Radeon HD 5770 = Juniper XT

Mobility Radeon HD 5750 = Redwood Pro
Radeon HD 5750 = Juniper LE

:up:
No... that is not what I was talking about.
I am talking about using the exact same chip and renaming it to a new generation 2-3 times... aka G92/G94/G96 and now with the G216/G218.

Again, I remember them doing it with a lowend chip but cannot recall the exact details, such as all the chips and brandings.

[Manicdan]

are you sure you cant use the integrated screen? that would suck

[Tenknics]

wow, i thought these never existed because it was a dumb idea, not because it just wasn't ready yet...

this must be for those who want a small inexpensive computer, yet also want to lug around a second device with a second power adapter that is not even mobile, a second device that also surely bridges the price gap between the cheaper and more expensive notebook...
and after all this, cant even play it on the integrated screen? yeah, i have monitors all over the place too, 4 of them, where i go with my laptop.

this is beyond impractical.

Have you thought about traveling businessmen who only have a laptop and want to game when they come home? Why are you assuming this would be lugged around? Its more akin to a docking station that you leave at home and plug in when you want more functionality at home.

I have a very capable laptop in terms of processing power but the graphics is little to be desired. Yes I could have bought a laptop with better graphics (which costs way more money)but Im a casual gamer. All the other features of the laptop were perfect for my occupational needs. When I come home from the field I'd like to game on my 24" with all the bells and whistles turned on which I currently can't do. This product is perfect from me, far from impractical. Thanks for speaking for everyone though..:clap:


I am talking about using the exact same chip and renaming it to a new generation 2-3 times... aka G92/G94/G96 and now with the G216/G218.

I said it wasn't as bad as nV..And to be quite honest I don't think anyone has done it quite like nV has over 2-3 generations. Ati has never done that.

[STEvil]

wow, i thought these never existed because it was a dumb idea, not because it just wasn't ready yet...

this must be for those who want a small inexpensive computer, yet also want to lug around a second device with a second power adapter that is not even mobile, a second device that also surely bridges the price gap between the cheaper and more expensive notebook...
and after all this, cant even play it on the integrated screen? yeah, i have monitors all over the place too, 4 of them, where i go with my laptop.

this is beyond impractical.

Step 1: Purchase hardware.
Step 2: Go mobile with just your smaller netbook/laptop when you want.
Step 3: Play at home or LAN with more GPU power without the need of a large laptop or a separate gaming system
Step 4: Profit.

Note: Sony laptops with switcheable GPU's would be a great platform for this since they provide full 16x PCI-E. Just need a cable to your GPU and an external PSU to offload ALL power requirements. ;)

I agree the laptop should have an HDMI/DVI input on it so you can use the built in screen for discrete graphics.

[BeepBeep2]

wow, i thought these never existed because it was a dumb idea, not because it just wasn't ready yet...

this must be for those who want a small inexpensive computer, yet also want to lug around a second device with a second power adapter that is not even mobile, a second device that also surely bridges the price gap between the cheaper and more expensive notebook...
and after all this, cant even play it on the integrated screen? yeah, i have monitors all over the place too, 4 of them, where i go with my laptop.

this is beyond impractical.

It's completely practical. If I had another LCD (I've only got a crappy 15" CRT) I'd hook one of these up to my netbook. It wouldn't get me much but I've got games that do 20 FPS on that little thing, a 5770 in a box wouldn't be bad to boost frames to playable levels. Plus, I'd be able to run 2D without even it stuttering...*curses @ stupid Intel GMA950*

[AndrewZorn]

first of all, dont you need a special laptop to use it? if so, there go all your "but i have this" arguments

the cost of this thing? you think it will be cheaper than the already-crazy-high mobile GPU equivalent?
i cant find any pricing info on this, but i can only imagine...

how is a normal laptop + power desktop OR power laptop not infinitely better?
you will have to try to find a laptop that supports this, which will probably be more on its own, then buy the box itself... so that with all this trouble, you can do what even the most basic of desktop builds can do.

it just strikes me as the ultimate "polishing of a turd" example...

now if the device is under $200, and it magically works with all (or even most) laptops, then i could see the application. but i doubt that is going to happen, this has been "right around the corner" for years now.

my guess is more like $400+ for the box, and $100 sneaked in to the cost of the laptop for the technology. for that price, you could just have two computers... especially considering that it should be really cheap to build a desktop that beats the laptop+box combo (think of all the mobile parts).

...or maybe all this is the wrong way to look at it still. my laptop is 7lbs and has a 4850 mobility. it isnt larger than a normal 17" laptop. i dont know what is new these days, but buying a laptop for your needs cannot be that bad either.

i summarize: the IDEA isnt that terrible, but there isnt a practical way to execute this without some massive cooperation.
if you could have a universal dock (like the dell ones, with the laptop just quickly snapping on top) that housed the GPU and normal dock featurse AND was cost effective and/or used a normal, replaceable desktop video card inside... that would be something to look into. but that is asking a lot, just to satisfy the "unplug and go" desire for the whole thing.

[STEvil]

first of all, dont you need a special laptop to use it? if so, there go all your "but i have this" arguments

Any laptop with a 1x external PCi-E port will work with it.

Hopefully future laptops have a bit more than just a 1x external port..

[oohms]

If this external solution could be used with the internal screen, i would buy one. Doesn't matter if the internals are upgradeable or not.

For taking to lan partys etc, this would be perfect. But if i have to lug around a 2nd monitor, keyboard it would be too cumbersome, and i might as well use a m-atx system.

[Behemot]

http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/17243/1/ but you still need external display. Am I the only one thinking this is really too crazy? For that money (NTB+graphics) you can build gaming machine and you'll probably still have money for some cheaper laptop for office use.

[Manicdan]

http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/17243/1/ but you still need external display. Am I the only one thinking this is really too crazy? For that money (NTB+graphics) you can build gaming machine and you'll probably still have money for some cheaper laptop for office use.

horrible sentance in the article:

Unfortunately this product will need an external monitor to connect to and we are not aware of the possibility of accelerating the notebook 3D graphics on the notebook display

they need to make up their mind, will you NEED an external monitor, or are they just not sure. (they could be saying, the technology to use the internal monitor with external graphics is something they are not sure is ever possible)

[Behemot]

The first product needed, it's pretty possible the second will need too. But you're right, we'll have to wait for final release :)

[Mad1723]

horrible sentance in the article:


they need to make up their mind, will you NEED an external monitor, or are they just not sure. (they could be saying, the technology to use the internal monitor with external graphics is something they are not sure is ever possible)

If you read correctly, it says that you have to use a display and that the box cannot be used to do the 3d graphics directly on the netbook's screen :up:

[purecain]

well this solution would suit me as i could have a second gaming rig at home...

i can have a friend play online using my laptop with the xgp breakout box on my hdtv instead of having to clutter my living room with yet another rig...

the ati xgp is coming...

the question is when....

[AndrewZorn]

how is a mini tower in the entertainment stand more clutter than a laptop with a breakout box

[Russian]

I had an opportunity to try this out as well, and i must say... it would work nicely for someone who has a laptop and docks their laptop as their work computer as well. This enables them to gain a significant amount of workspace in the office which can increase productivity in the office. At the company i used to work for, we had a lot of sales and marketing guys who used laptops as their main computers and then docked them in the office. I wouldn't necessarily consider this a solution for engineers, but its entirely possible as well.

[generics_user]

just to clarify some things:

XGP Runs off a PCIe x8 2.0 Interface
it is in now way bandwith limited as it doesn't make use of the external pciex1 connector ;)

XGP also works with the internal Monitor

image gets sent back to the NB via pcie (similar to CF)

Driver post on Fujitsu forums (http://forum.ts.fujitsu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=37661)

the Amilo SA3650 is the only XGP Notebook so far and it suffered from the old Turion CPU and mobile 3870

http://www.guru3d.com/article/amilo-sa3650-with-graphics-booster-review/1

it shows that this solution works and that the performance is good (considering the stone-age hardware used in the first XGP parts)

for me this thing is no real solution as i need a separate desktop + notebook; but for some it might be a great solution together with a 13" notebook (15" come with proper graphics already); mobile for work/unitversity and stationary graphics at home without the hassle of switching between 2 rigs (this is really annoying and i can't wait to get a new NB with support for 2 external monitors so i'm able to switch all my work to my mobile rig)

[generics_user]

If you read correctly, it says that you have to use a display and that the box cannot be used to do the 3d graphics directly on the netbook's screen :up:
you may want to take a look at my post; it's quite easy to send the image back via PCIE and use the internal TMDS for video output (Crossfire already does this with AFR renders)

[Mad1723]

you may want to take a look at my post; it's quite easy to send the image back via PCIE and use the internal TMDS for video output (Crossfire already does this with AFR renders)

Sorry, I hadn't read all the posts, I read only the quote and that's what I understood from it. But it seems that it is possible. Then there is no reason for it to fail other than price :D

[nn_step]

>.< Please god Please Be an open standard >.<

Otherwise just toss it into the trash and save the steps in between.

[generics_user]

>.< Please god Please Be an open standard >.<

Otherwise just toss it into the trash and save the steps in between.

QFT

the x8 connector opens so many possibilities for universal expansion kits; it would be a shame to keep it closed :(

[STEvil]

I don think it matters if its open or not, its just an electrical connection. The licensing fees might hurt...

[initialised]

I tested my wife's Acer Ferrari One on 3DMark06 getting a score of 1002 on defaults at native resolution (1366x768). i'd like to see what it gets with XGP as it might be good as a secondary gaming system, however, the 310 Dual Core is going to hurt CPU dependent games.

[Aleki]

If theyre affordable, I would definitely pick one up. I picked up a 13.3" laptop because it needed to stow away in my glove compartment. The CPU is a 2.4ghz c2d w/ 6mb cache, and DDR3 CL7 memory(yucky timing, but quick). All of the hardware is complemented by a damn intel 4500 IGP which is a serious bottleneck of the laptop.
Anyway, If they can make it look a little more discreet while running around the same price of a desktop GPU, i'd bite :)