Anyone still using CRT's?

[Think]

Found a Sony GDM-FW900 24" 100lb monitor for $350 used. Just wondering if I should jump on this. I still have my old 21" Viewsonic but I have a buyer for $60.00.

If you don't know what it is, it's a wide screen 24" CRT by sony that the mafia use to sink there 'luggage' at the bottom of a lake:D

Any thoughts?

[zalbard]

It was a dream of mine 7 years ago. :p:
I probably wouldn't get it now, though, LCD monitors beat CRTs by brightness and weight + size these days, this will be VERY noticeable... Only good thing is decent colours (comparing to bad TNs) and slightly better response time.
Also LCDs are better for your eyes for sure, no flickering ftw.
I'd just get a decent new 24" TN monitor for the same price. Or spent some more and got ISP / MVA one.

[Think]

It was a dream of mine 7 years ago. :p:
I probably wouldn't get it now, though, LCD monitors beat CRTs by brightness and weight + size these days, this will be VERY noticeable... Only good thing is decent colours (comparing to bad TNs) and slightly better response time.
Also LCDs are better for your eyes for sure, no flickering ftw.
I'd just get a decent new 24" TN monitor for the same price. Or spent some more and got ISP / MVA one.

I think your right. I can't handle a TN screen after using my NEC 20WMGX for so long but trying to find a good quality IPS screen is very difficult to say the least. I tried the Dell U2410 and was disappointed.

Going to look into the HP LP2475W but read that people have had problems with these as well...color hues, etc.

[Damian^]

CRT's are better IMO....for quake live :D (or a 120hz monitor FTW)

[[XC] Oj101]

When I saw this thread two things came to mind.

Graphical work
Quake 3

[Think]

When I saw this thread two things came to mind.

Graphical work
Quake 3

Graphical work = Yes
Quake 3 = why not:up:

[[XC] Oj101]

I still use a big old CRT for those two things, an LCD just can't compete yet no matter how good the panel or how well calibrated.

[AndrewZorn]

im sorry, i usually side on "better is better", but i think CRT is pretty dead.

120hz LCDs exist (if it really even improves the quality/success of gaming)
good quality LCD is not sluggish
good quality LCD has good colors
CRT is being left in the dark feature and compatibility wise (as much as i hate HDCP, it does exist)

and the "graphical design" thing...
think of your audience
you can perfect colors all day on an awesome CRT
but when a majority of your audience does not have an awesome CRT, what is the point?

i wont even get into convenience, power savings, or eye strain
but im sure everyone out there defending CRTs will tell me "what eye strain?"

[Frag Maniac]

The FW900 is a great monitor, and I still use a CRT myself. I had a Viewsonic f220b, but it went out on me recently and I lucked out and found a PC part recycle shop that had a Dell P1230 they swapped for free.

$350 is a bit high for the FW900 though. A while back there was lots of them available via power sellers on eBay for $250 with 2 yrs still left on the warranty. As old as it is now, you'd basically have no warranty, so if anything you should be paying LESS than $250.

Note that the actual viewable size of an FW900 is more like 22.5".

http://cgi.ebay.com/24-SONY-GDM-FW900-FLAT-Wide-CRT-Trinitron-Monitor-NR_W0QQitemZ260533056554QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCompute r_Monitors?hash=item3ca8faf42a

[Think]

All valid points and I've opted not to proceed with the purchase.

Thanks all for you input; it's much appreciated. :)

[RPGWiZaRD]

I would use a CRT if they still manufactured trinitron/diamondtron CRTs today and would pay reasonably as well (~$350) but I don't want a 24" beast, but a 21" would do fine, such as Dell P1130 for example.

The only 120Hz LCDs that's out so far suck pretty much compared to good IPS options such as 2209WA. Struggling to get used to the excessive BLB on my VX2268wm and hopefully there will be some better quality 120Hz LCDs soon.

[zanzabar]

$350 is steep for a crt as they all should be past their half life if they are used and trinitors are only good for 6 years for what ive had


im sorry, i usually side on "better is better", but i think CRT is pretty dead.

120hz LCDs exist (if it really even improves the quality/success of gaming)
good quality LCD is not sluggish
good quality LCD has good colors
CRT is being left in the dark feature and compatibility wise (as much as i hate HDCP, it does exist)

and the "graphical design" thing...
think of your audience
you can perfect colors all day on an awesome CRT
but when a majority of your audience does not have an awesome CRT, what is the point?

i wont even get into convenience, power savings, or eye strain
but im sure everyone out there defending CRTs will tell me "what eye strain?"

the is one 120hz lcd on the market and its a 22" pos (atleast until affter ces)
lcs are slow and have motion blur or aura artifacts its just how they work with the current models
u need to spend $500+ to get ok colors and u need an ips
HDCP is not needed for anything but blue rays and who watches blue rays without ripping them or buying the $100 software to do it, and if u buy the right software to view them it can force the hdcp requirement flag off


for graphic design, if u dont work on a crt u need to print everything or check it on a crt for ghosting/artifacts for the low color range on anything that is not a 100%+ gambit ips, and 2 if u are doing actual graphic design a crt is the only way to get a balanced color field to ensure that u wont have bad gradients when its printed (unless u buy a $1-2k lcd)

[Frag Maniac]

I would use a CRT if they still manufactured trinitron/diamondtron CRTs today and would pay reasonably as well (~$350) but I don't want a 24" beast, but a 21" would do fine, such as Dell P1130 for example.The Dell P1230 I have now is not really any bigger than my 21" Viewsonic was. They say it's 22" but it's only about 20" viewable like the f220b.

As for Trinitrons only lasting 6 yrs, says who? I gave a neighbor of mine my 20" Sony Trinitron TV a few yrs ago when it was 16 yrs old and it's still going strong. If anything the monitors are even sturdier. I can tell just by the sound of the degaussing when I switch it on that this Dell with Trinitron is built like a tank compared to my previous Viewsonic.

[lutjens]

The FW900 was the top dog back in the day. However, with the new features and low cost of today's comparably sized flat panels, I wouldn't bother. Not to mention the grotesque weight of that particular monitor...the back injury isn't worth it.;)

[zanzabar]

all of my trinitrons only go about 6 years then they get color imbalanceing and will drop to blue or red only until u cycle solid colors on them for 2-10mins

[AndrewZorn]

HDCP is not needed for anything but blue rays and who watches blue rays without ripping them or buying the $100 software to do it, and if u buy the right software to view them it can force the hdcp requirement flag off

for graphic design, if u dont work on a crt u need to print everything or check it on a crt for ghosting/artifacts for the low color range on anything that is not a 100%+ gambit ips, and 2 if u are doing actual graphic design a crt is the only way to get a balanced color field to ensure that u wont have bad gradients when its printed (unless u buy a $1-2k lcd)
i had to replace my monitor for one with HDCP because of my PS3. i know it isnt what you were expecting though. "who watches blurays"? how can you argue about small details of displays and not watch high quality video?

the second part again, i just cant really believe. im sure it is done some places, but i cannot imagine everyone in graphic design even thinks about using a CRT. most small independent business type graphic designers are the types to go on and on about how great their mac is, anyway.

why would you need to print something to check for artifacts? that makes no sense. zoom, use software tools. sitting back 3' from a static image is not the only way to check your work (assuming the problem is as bad as you make it out to be, or even exists)

EDIT and now i know what i was trying to remember a moment ago, this old argument came up elsewhere too. same points and pros and cons...

[-n7-]

God no.

I gladly got rid of my CRT many many years ago, back when $500 was a hot deal for a 17" LCD :)

[zanzabar]

i have a ps3 also but i have a vga box ($20 from xocide when they went out of biz) but computer wise blu ray works on it with the right software even if the hdcp flag is switched (not that ive found one that the ps3 didnt play in 1080 over composite). and like i said u need a high gambit lcd (so expensive ips) and it needs to have a balanced back lite or a crt. for biz use they would most likely have expensive balanced panels

[Behemot]

Pity there is no 24'' 4:3 CRT. I'd go for one immediatelly :)

Now I feel still very comfortable with my Eizo 21'' CRT.

[SoulsCollective]

I used to have a FW900. Replaced it, never looked back - my eyes feel much better, the colours are just as good on my 2408WFP, and I can carry it around. The one thing I miss is really, really deep blacks, but everything else outweighs that particular negative by far.

[SoulsCollective]

You know, it's funny you should say that because I have observed the exact opposite; ever since I started using this LP2475w I've experienced more eye strain (thus headaches), and also dry eyes (which I never got with my CRTs). That's during gaming. For text, it's another story - the LCD is obviously better there, but I'm only concerned with gaming and for that the LCD has been very disappointing.
I was experiencing something similar until I adjusted the brightness - I'm currently my 2408WFP at 0 brightness, 50 contrast. If I raise the brightness even to 10 I get more colour "pop", but I can guarantee that within an hour my eyes will be telling me about it.

[SoulsCollective]

Interesting. What's your view distance? Mine is elevated about 20cm off the desk (measuring from the desk to the bottom of the stand), and about a metre from my eyes. Of course, different monitors are not directly comparable.

[AndrewZorn]

if the monitor is no brighter and no closer than your old CRT then the whole thing is in your head. the reason people claim it is easier on the eyes is because it is not flickering. it is solid, constant light. i cant imagine 60+ flickers a second being naturally soothing to anyone's eyes.

[zanzabar]

what about motion blur or auras they arnt natural ether

[SoulsCollective]

LCDs don't flicker. They can't. "flicker" is what happens when you get a light flashing a certain number of times per second - an LCD has a backlight that is always on so long as the screen in turned on.

[zanzabar]

Call it what you will, there is flicker from LCD's at 60Hz.

its not the lcd its the ccfl back lite, and led wont have that


and people shouldent argue about it its like phosphor trails on plasmas or flicker on a crt some people see it some dont

[Serpentarius]

LCDs do flicker ... but normally due to the the DVI/VGA cable bent .. it's more like a bad cable placement
We usually had those issues in office where users tend to have messy table, messy cable ... most of the time the head of DVI/VGA is cause .. and it doesnt matter if the screws are tight

[Frag Maniac]

Let's clear a few things up here. LCDs do not in fact suffer from 60 cycle flicker as CRTs do. However, they can in fact flicker in two different ways, but it's NOT inherent in their design and fairly rare. LCDs are all factory set for voltage. If poorly calibrated for these micro fluctuations in voltage they go through, they can flicker. Secondly, if a CCFL is bad, cheap, or has a defective or poorly made dimmer, they can hum, whine or even flicker from that too, but again, fairly rare. You'll more commonly experience dimmer whine, hum or buzz than flicker if such is the case.

Finally, there is a phenomenon that is perhaps not so rare depending on the LCD you have and area you live in. Some LCDs are made with very large vent slots and with minimal reflectors on the backs of the CCFLs. If you live in an area with lots of small insects, this can cause a potential problem with them being attracted to the viewable backlight and getting inside the back of the display and causing potential damage. Again though, it's fairly rare for most.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=165600661

[AndrewZorn]

oh, well in that case, it has been downgraded from "rare and unnoticeable" to "completely in your head"

[Think]

The cold silence of reluctant agreement?

So Think, did you end up making a purchase yet? I definitely wouldn't bother with the LP2475w if you were disappointed with the U2410 - they use the same panel, and therefore are both afflicted with the same pink/blue hue issues etc.

I've been looking at the UltraSharp 2709W myself. It's a 27" VA panel, and I'm thinking this might be a good thing after seing just how poorly my IPS LP2475w displays blacks. The 2709W also has similar connectivity to the LP2475w/U2410. The only issues is input lag - people seem to be very much divided on this when it comes to the 2709W...

No, I decided not to buy the CRT after some insightful comments from here. I'm still using my NEC 20WMGX2 but would like the same quality in a bigger image. I have strong bias against 'anything Dell' and would rather buy a good panel from either Samsung, NEC, etc but there is nothing out there in the 27" size that seems to appeal to me.

[AndrewZorn]

The cold silence of reluctant agreement?

So Think, did you end up making a purchase yet? I definitely wouldn't bother with the LP2475w if you were disappointed with the U2410 - they use the same panel, and therefore are both afflicted with the same pink/blue hue issues etc.

I've been looking at the UltraSharp 2709W myself. It's a 27" VA panel, and I'm thinking this might be a good thing after seing just how poorly my IPS LP2475w displays blacks. The 2709W also has similar connectivity to the LP2475w/U2410. The only issues is input lag - people seem to be very much divided on this when it comes to the 2709W...
ha... um, no. more like "the cold silence of just leaving the ignorant to themselves"

same panel != same problems

and the U2711 comes out very soon. 27" IPS, hopefully they fix the input lag thing.

[SoulsCollective]

Since you seem so set on it, yes. I can clearly see a CRT flickering at 60Hz, to look at one for more than a minute or so gives me a grinding headache. I need at least 85Hz on a CRT to not get eye-strain. Setting an LCD to 50Hz forced in CCC or Windows gives me nothing, I can't see flicker, even turning 90 to the screen, or looking at another LCD set to 60Hz beside it.

I don't know what you're seeing, but it's not refresh flicker - LCDs are simply not capable of exhibiting the same flicker behaviour as a CRT unless they are physically damaged in some way such as to cause the backlight or associated electronics to malfunction, or are defective from factory.

[[XC] Oj101]

^ What he said. The light from a CRT is created via the photon gun scanning across the screen, at a low refresh rate the pixels dim between each refresh causing the flicker. On an LCD, the light is created by a backlight, which is not affected by refresh rate as it is on constantly. Lowering the refresh rate just increases the time it takes for a pixel to change colour, nothing more.

[zanzabar]

actually on the flickering, i just got a panasonic viera 32" s1 1080p and it has a motion setting so it backs the pixels to black so it can change colors faster (it drops it from 8ms to 4ms or something), with that on and a high back lite setting (the default for game mode) it had some flickering with still images

[AndrewZorn]

like said above, it isnt really part of how the technology works.

try taking a video of it, even if it is with a cell phone camera. crt flicker always shows up obviously, lcd does not.

[zanzabar]

places with ntsc have 60hrz and places with pal have 50hrz. 50hrz is normally cleaner though and i would think that a tv store would have alot of power conditioners.

every1 is diffrent though it could just be that your broken :p: like the people with good enough eyes to see phosphor trails on plasma

[[XC] Oj101]

I know it's not supposedly part of how the technology works. That's why I was so dismayed apon walking into a shop to find every LCD TV in there flickering. It can't just be my LP2475w, because I've seen it elsewhere. Could it be something to do with our 50Hz power over here? What do you guy's have - 60Hz mains?

I know EXACTLY what you mean, and I sourced the problem. The overhead flourescent lights reflecting off of the TVs!

[AndrewZorn]

but isnt that the same misplaced blame?
fluorescent lights supposedly flicker, but the backlights inside your LCD monitor are pretty much the same thing, right? thats why a laptop has a DC to AC inverter in it, to power the CCFLs?

and the "eyes good enough to see phosphor trails on plasma"... i think a lot of that is in-their-heads too. if you could find a way to trick someone into looking at a CRT, i bet theyd tell you about being able to see the ghosting on the LCD.

[zanzabar]

phasphor trails are when u have something bright move across the screen it will leave a green trail, most people cant see them but some do

[[XC] Oj101]

I think that the lights in your monitor are perhaps of a much higher quality as I almost always see flourescent bulbs flicker but I've yet to see an LCD monitor flicker :shrug:

[AndrewZorn]

i dont mean flicker like it is broken, i just thought that a fluorescent bulb had 60hz flicker as part of its operation

[AndrewZorn]

wow that is a shame

[AndrewZorn]

no problem, hope you can work something out with manufacturer

[Jordan]

Swapped my Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 17" for a Samsung 19" PVA panel a few years back and even though I loved my Mitsu I never looked back!

I am/was a web designer so my work isn't too colour critical as it's not for print. The pros of a TFT far outweighed the pros of the CRT for me so I made the switch. The TFT is defintely easier on the eyes when doing office work and browsing the web, which in reality I spend 70% of my time doing. I used to run my CRT at 85Hz btw.