Whats the difference between the LCD panels?

[little_scrapper]

I am still trying to find a good deal on a decent 32" LCD.

What is the difference between:

LG uses "Super ISP Panels."
Samsung has "Ultra Clear Panels."
Toshiba uses "Cinespeed LCD Panels."
Sony uses "8-bit Panels."

I cant really find much of anything about these "panels/technologies" outside of the respective companies PR/Propaganda. :shrug:

Right now, as much as I want to go for a Sony Bravia, I'm looking at this Toshiba http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889253222 Because at $400 its $150 cheaper then the Sony and that pays for my portable dvd player I need to buy and any 32" 720p that I would even consider buying is at least $350 anyways so why not just get a 1080p. Thats my thinking anyways.

I also noticed that even on the Toshiba Cinespeed Panels there are varying degrees of viewing angle listed on different models. Anyone know why that would be?

[EniGmA1987]

From what Ive heard about LCD panel tech, S-IPS panels have always been some of the better ones

[STEvil]

IPS is the best

"Ultra Clear" and "Cinespeed" are marketing fud and have nothing to do with the panel type used.

Sony does not use only 8-bit panels.

Here is a quick cheat list to look for on your LCD:

Color depth/"number of colors": 6bit, 8bit, 10bit, 12bit. The higher the better and 6-bit sucks. 6-bit is also referred to as 16.2 (or 16.1, forget at the moment) million colors, 8-bit is referred to as 16.7 million colors. Do not buy a 6-bit panel.
Frequency: 60hz, 120hz, 240hz, etc: Its all a lie. LCD's at the moment only come in 60hz and 120hz and you need to look at the specs carefully to find TRUE 120hz panels. This will be listed in the vertical input frequency. If 120hz is not listed then it is a 60hz display.

If you dont intend to game on it from a PC then the frequency wont matter too much, it might just look a bit weird to you in some movies (frame interpolation does that..).

The hardest thing to find out about most panels is the response time. The response time is the amount of time it takes for an image to be buffered in the scaler then displayed on the screen. This number is not related to the response time of the pixels (grey to grey etc) and is usually between 30 and 100 milliseconds.

[Donnie27]

IPS is the best

"Ultra Clear" and "Cinespeed" are marketing fud and have nothing to do with the panel type used.

Sony does not use only 8-bit panels.

Here is a quick cheat list to look for on your LCD:

Color depth/"number of colors": 6bit, 8bit, 10bit, 12bit. The higher the better and 6-bit sucks. 6-bit is also referred to as 16.2 (or 16.1, forget at the moment) million colors, 8-bit is referred to as 16.7 million colors. Do not buy a 6-bit panel. Frequency: 60hz, 120hz, 240hz, etc: Its all a lie. LCD's at the moment only come in 60hz and 120hz and you need to look at the specs carefully to find TRUE 120hz panels. This will be listed in the vertical input frequency. If 120hz is not listed then it is a 60hz display.

If you dont intend to game on it from a PC then the frequency wont matter too much, it might just look a bit weird to you in some movies (frame interpolation does that..).

The hardest thing to find out about most panels is the response time. The response time is the amount of time it takes for an image to be buffered in the scaler then displayed on the screen. This number is not related to the response time of the pixels (grey to grey etc) and is usually between 30 and 100 milliseconds.

Cinespeed isn't marketing fud at all LOL!
Q> What is Cinespeed?
A> "CineSpeed™ LCD panels have the 8ms or faster response speed necessary for cleaner high-action home theater images. A wide viewing angle ensures that you’ll have the best seat in the house."

Since it does feature faster than 8ms and offers an excellent wider view, it is hardly fud. Something great, no, but not fud. If calling any of their features like this FUD, then you might want to add Samsung and the rest. The problem isn't Sony or Toshiba, but over zealous Fans proclaiming something these companies didn't.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6792632-1.html


The Sony KDL-46XBR's Motion Flow anti-judder feature is one of the best we've seen to date.
Great Opinions and Facts.

Let's also look at where we are compare to just 3 to five years ago to computers. In 2006 at about the time Conroe launched, here's what the normally cheaper Toshiba LCD TV's sold for.

REGZA LCD TV
26HL66 ($1,199.99, Available Now)
32HL66 ($1,599.99, Available Now)
37HL66 ($2,199.99, August 2006)

REGZA LCDVD
26HLV66 ($1,299.99, June 2006)
32HLV66 ($1,699.99, June 2006)
37HLV66 ($2,299.99, July 2006)

REGZA XHD
42HL196 ($2,999.99, July 2006)

Cinema Series REGZA
37LX96 ($2,599.99, July 2006)

Cinema Series REGZA XHD
42LX196 ($3,299.99, July 2006)
47LX196 ($4,499.99, August 2006)

* Release of Additional REGZA Models to Follow

16:9 HD LCD TV
20HL86 ($699.99, July 2006)

16:9 HD LCD RealSteel TV
20HLK86 ($799.99, July 2006)

16:9 HD LCDVD TV
23HLV86 ($899.99, June 2006)

Custom Series HD LCD True Monitors (No Tuners)
26HLC56 ($1,099.99, August 2006)
32HLC56 ($1,399.99, July 2006)
37HLC56 ($1,999.99, July 2006)

HD Plasma TV
42HP66 ($2,299.99, Available Now)
50HP66 ($3,299.99, Available Now)



Toshiba America Consumer Products, L.L.C. ("Toshiba") showcased its new flat panel line at its annual dealer line show, highlighting the new REGZA sub brand, including its REGZA XHD™ 1080p sets. A global brand for Toshiba LCD TV, the REGZA line features state-of-the-art technology and new cosmetic designs. Utilizing Toshibas own PixelPure Hi-Bit™ 12-bit Digital Video Processing and fast CineSpeed™ LCD Panel technologies, the REGZA line will deliver stunning lifelike images unlike anything Toshiba has offered before.

I bought my 46" TV for what the 26" sold for with less features and lower quality. Video Processing is 14bit on a 10bit panel, yeah I know. How good any picture is depends on the source more than the TV be it LCD or Plasma. Another computer term, Crap in = Crap out:up:

Oh and I thought Hz, as in 120Hz is measured Horizontally instead of Vertically?

[Jokester_wild]

Cinespeed isn't marketing fud at all LOL!
Q> What is Cinespeed?
A> "CineSpeed™ LCD panels have the 8ms or faster response speed necessary for cleaner high-action home theater images. A wide viewing angle ensures that you’ll have the best seat in the house."

Since it does feature faster than 8ms and offers an excellent wider view, it is hardly fud. Something great, no, but not fud. If calling any of their features like this FUD, then you might want to add Samsung and the rest. The problem isn't Sony or Toshiba, but over zealous Fans proclaiming something these companies didn't.
[/B]

yes that is marketing fud, they just could have said lower then 8ms response. Putting a name on a feature is marketing fud.

[STEvil]

I think i'd be hard pressed to name a panel that has more than 8ms pixel response time these days. Basically if its higher than 8 its just not market worthy.

[individual]

Why go LCD when you can go LED. you can pick up a samsung LED 46" for just over 2 grand now.... and I can assure you they are 10 times sharper than LCD. We all know LCD have cathodes behind them, and the crystals just bend to allow different ammounts of light through, but even when they are all shut off, you will never get a true black. LED has no backlight, each pixel is self luminated, so you get true black, not to mention much brighter and sharper colours.

Ultra clear is also not a marketing Fud. It's talking about transparency/reflection/refraction rates. Transparency is extremely high, with minimal luminance lost, reflection is extremely low, and because of the base density of the panel is produced in such a way that it is extremely light weight, the refraction rate is also very, very low.

And no, putting a name on a feature is not a marketing fud, because there are still alot of people that are not technology minded. eg if you say "8 ms response time" the amish will still be like "what the **** does that mean" where as if you say "super-smooth-and-clear-image-technology" they go "ahh that sounds good" and then for the technology savvy people, we can look under specs and deduce what the F they are talking about.

PS stevil, what do you have against asus? I've had in the range of hundreds of their products and have never had a problem or a faulty device....

[STEvil]

Because you can pick up a non LED 46" LCD for about $1000 which is half the cost of the LED displays (which will be coming down in price some in 6-8 months..).

Yes, the marketing names do cover a lot of specs. Even I dont know all of the specs. If they cant give me all of the specs up front or in an easily accessible location (website, manual, display area on box) then they are hiding something from me that they dont want known to be easily disseminated to the general buying populace.

Its in my sig, individual.

[EniGmA1987]

Why go LCD when you can go LED. you can pick up a samsung LED 46" for just over 2 grand now.... and I can assure you they are 10 times sharper than LCD. We all know LCD have cathodes behind them, and the crystals just bend to allow different ammounts of light through, but even when they are all shut off, you will never get a true black. LED has no backlight, each pixel is self luminated, so you get true black, not to mention much brighter and sharper colours.


Not true.
LED TVs still use an LCD panel, and no LED TV or monitor uses an individual LED per pixel. The power requirements on that alone would be more than a dedicated circuit could even handle. Some of the more expensive LED sets have a few hundred LEDs, the cheap ones (and small ones) can have as little as 8 LEDs. The highest number of any TV that I have heard of is 1,380 LEDs. But those are slightly more expensive LED, and the TV is a prototype only and was never produced do to heat, power, and cost. Many of the cheaper TVs also have the LEDs positioned around the edges of the screen instead of right behind the panel.

FYI, LED TVs also consume MORE power than standard LCD TVs with the cold-cathode fluorescent lights, the TVs that use less power are ones with very few LEDs in them. One of the reasons some of the TVs consume less power is because you(depending on the LEDs) you dont need the inverter circuit which cuts down on power draw. Also, LEDs produce more heat.

[individual]

Oh so it is just LED backlit? Well then....i stand corrected haha. Still, picture quality is a huge improvement.

[STEvil]

If you buy a good one yes. Buy an average or crappy one and its the same as any other LCD.

[EniGmA1987]

Ya to really get the quality improvement from an LED display, you need it to be capable of local dimming and be true 120Hz. The local dimming will significantly improve contrast ratios, help produce more true black levels, cut down on power, and help reduce backlight bleeding to areas that shouldn't have light. Local dimming is a HUGE improvement in technology. The true 120Hz refresh rate will give you a much smoother picture without the incredibly nasty weird "hyper motion" actifacts in the image, and it also helps a lot with gaming if you have a video card that can actually render a continual 120 frames per second or more at all times. The crazy hyper speed motion is REALLY noticeable on 240Hz TVs

[Donnie27]

I think i'd be hard pressed to name a panel that has more than 8ms pixel response time these days. Basically if its higher than 8 its just not market worthy.

Of course!!! But since when can they all use the same name? I can see it now, Samsung getting sued by Sony for using the Term "Motion Flow 240". Marketing yes, FUD or lies, no.

[YukonTrooper]

If you buy a good one yes. Buy an average or crappy one and its the same as any other LCD.
Or buy an overpriced Samsung piece-of-junk edge-lit LED that is 10 times worse than standard LCD's.

Or do the right thing a buy a plasma. :)

[Jokester_wild]

Or buy an overpriced Samsung piece-of-junk edge-lit LED that is 10 times worse than standard LCD's.

Or do the right thing a buy a plasma. :)

lol.. the right thing ? allot of people prefer the LCD characteristics to that of plasma.

[YukonTrooper]

lol.. the right thing ? allot of people prefer the LCD characteristics to that of plasma.
It wasn't a totally serious comment. :p:

I'll be more specific: In a properly light-controlled home-theater room, I'll take a high-end plasma over any LCD, even full-array LED models. Would I give up my TC-P58S1 for an LCD in my home-theater room? HEEEELLLLL NAH!

[EniGmA1987]

In what way is LCD tech better or more preferable than plasma? (serious question) I really cant think of any right now... Even if you hvae lots of windows and dont want a glass screen because of glare issues, they make plasma TVs with an anti-glar coating over it to make the surface matte instead of glossy.

[STEvil]

If I was building a theater then it would be Plasma hands down. Gotta do some work though and a plasma is not an option in that case ;)

Plasmas are for games and movies. Thats it.

[Donnie27]

lol.. the right thing ? allot of people prefer the LCD characteristics to that of plasma.

QFT!:yepp:

Samsung is another of the Bose like companies LOL! They have great products but their value sucks IMHO!

[Donnie27]

Not true.
LED TVs still use an LCD panel, and no LED TV or monitor uses an individual LED per pixel. The power requirements on that alone would be more than a dedicated circuit could even handle. Some of the more expensive LED sets have a few hundred LEDs, the cheap ones (and small ones) can have as little as 8 LEDs. The highest number of any TV that I have heard of is 1,380 LEDs. But those are slightly more expensive LED, and the TV is a prototype only and was never produced do to heat, power, and cost. Many of the cheaper TVs also have the LEDs positioned around the edges of the screen instead of right behind the panel.

FYI, LED TVs also consume MORE power than standard LCD TVs with the cold-cathode fluorescent lights, the TVs that use less power are ones with very few LEDs in them. One of the reasons some of the TVs consume less power is because you(depending on the LEDs) you dont need the inverter circuit which cuts down on power draw. Also, LEDs produce more heat.

Thank you, I showed this to a friend shopping or a TV and he's put off buying until he does some more research!

[itznfb]

QFT!:yepp:

Samsung is another of the Bose like companies LOL! They have great products but their value sucks IMHO!

How does their value suck? They make some of the best products at the best prices.

Samsung LN55B650 for $1750... show me a better value.

[Donnie27]

How does their value suck? They make some of the best products at the best prices.

Samsung LN55B650 for $1750... show me a better value.

It sucks because almost anyone doing an A vs B would SEE the extra costs=P The TV shop I went to had all of them professionally adjusted, in normal Den or Media room settings. Now there's now way in hell did I think the 46" 650 was worth $450 more than the Sony 5100 model that was $1399 at the time of purchase. I must admit that though, the 55" model going for what the 46" sold for 7 months ago is an improvement.

Now maybe I spoke too soon:D

http://www.cheapstingybargains.com/192747/samsung-46-120hz-1080p-widescreen-lcd-hdtv/


BestBuy.com has the Samsung 46" 120Hz 1080p Widescreen LCD HDTV for $1000 after $700 instant discount w/ free shipping.

The Samsung 46" 120Hz 1080p Widescreen LCD HDTV features: Resolution of 1920x1080 (1080p), 120Hz refresh rate, 80,000:1 dynamic contrast ratio, 4ms response time, four HDMI inputs, and VGA, component, and other video inputs.

See, the $700 discount that makes this a GREAT DEAL is also the reason prior to this discount that made it a bad deal but it is the 640 instead of the 650.

[Kallenator]

I think i'd be hard pressed to name a panel that has more than 8ms pixel response time these days. Basically if its higher than 8 its just not market worthy.

How is this response time measured?

The way I think:
If it's the time a pixel uses to change from a color on one end of the scale to another on the other end, it's pretty darn fast?
You could display 125fps on that without a glitch. And from a movie point of view which only is 24fps this is never going to make any difference?


If I was building a theater then it would be Plasma hands down. Gotta do some work though and a plasma is not an option in that case ;)

Plasmas are for games and movies. Thats it.

Home theater = Projector, no question about it, none at all.

[STEvil]

How is this response time measured?

The way I think:
If it's the time a pixel uses to change from a color on one end of the scale to another on the other end, it's pretty darn fast?
You could display 125fps on that without a glitch. And from a movie point of view which only is 24fps this is never going to make any difference?



Home theater = Projector, no question about it, none at all.

Depends on the manufacturer. Some list Grey to Grey, some are black to black and others are just random numbers that look good to the guys in marketing.

if you do find a panel over 8ms these days its probably from a forced labor camp...

[Donnie27]

http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/contrast-ratio.html

Talk about smoke and mirrors LOL! The electronics work (xxbit processor), to pull neat little tricks to try and increase the Contrast Ratios. Dynamic Ratio has no industry standard and all they need to do is make the measurement repeatable=P They can;

Max out of the Brightest settings, change the room's light or even location for the best results. Then do what's needed to get the blackest blacks as well. The end result has almost NOTHING to do with what viewing a Movie or Game will look like.

Yes, they use other neat little tricks to play with refresh rates and resolutions as well. Static Contrast is the real measurement because it's measured while the screen actually on with simultaneous white and black boxes LOL! Again, more marketing BS! Or as you guys called it, "FUD" by all of them. Of these Samsung is the worst since most of these Crappy tricks originated in their labs:rolleyes: At least Motion Flow and Cinespeed aren't lies like "Dynamic Contrasts" that they all lie about.

A unpleasant factoid! Fast action decreases even Static Contrast as well.

Go look at a TV and if looks good, buy it=P

[redro]

I am still trying to find a good deal on a decent 32" LCD.

What is the difference between:

LG uses "Super ISP Panels."
Samsung has "Ultra Clear Panels."
Toshiba uses "Cinespeed LCD Panels."
Sony uses "8-bit Panels."

I cant really find much of anything about these "panels/technologies" outside of the respective companies PR/Propaganda. :shrug:

Right now, as much as I want to go for a Sony Bravia, I'm looking at this Toshiba http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889253222 Because at $400 its $150 cheaper then the Sony and that pays for my portable dvd player I need to buy and any 32" 720p that I would even consider buying is at least $350 anyways so why not just get a 1080p. Thats my thinking anyways.

I also noticed that even on the Toshiba Cinespeed Panels there are varying degrees of viewing angle listed on different models. Anyone know why that would be?

Well, the Vizio VOJ320F 32" 1080p LCD TV is more than decent. As you can see, it has an impressive LCD TV ratings (http://www.smartratings.com/electronics/plasma_and_lcds) of 90 and has a market price of only around $475. At that size, it's unbeatable.

[little_scrapper]

Well, the Vizio VOJ320F 32" 1080p LCD TV is more than decent. As you can see, it has an impressive LCD TV ratings (http://www.smartratings.com/electronics/plasma_and_lcds) of 90 and has a market price of only around $475. At that size, it's unbeatable.

is it better than this 1080p for $400?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889253222
Or this Samsung 720p for $400?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889102249

[YukonTrooper]

What will you be using the TV for?

[little_scrapper]

What will you be using the TV for?

Bedroom TV. early morning and late night :banana::banana::banana::banana:o watching with the wife, or without the wife for that matter, hehe ;)

[YukonTrooper]

If you need wide viewing angles, I'd suggest an IPS screen. Panasonic's new X1, S1, and G1 32" models carry the new IPS Alpha screen. However, if you don't need wide viewing angles, I'd look at a PVA panel, such as the Sony KDL-32L5000, as PVA panels will give you deeper blacks than IPS technology, which is arguable more important than bang-on-color for TV viewing. Samsung makes some nice units on the high-end, but their low end stuff leaves a lot to be desired when compared to the competition. Also, if you'll be gaming at all, the Panasonic IPS panels have the lowest input lag of all at around 10-15ms, while most of the PVA panels have input lag in the 30-40ms range with their game modes enabled.

[little_scrapper]

I dont think I will need angles. I will be pretty much straight on with the TV being a couple feet higher then my eyes at 10 feet away. I thinking approx 25 degrees above horizontal from my eyes at 10 feet. Basically watching while lying in bed.