Wisdom: Knowing how little you know

[creidiki]

It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and say the opposite.

- Sam Levenson

*cough*

So ... >_>

I'm planning a new rig/project.

...

And I need current facts on WC components, because I've been out of the loop. This is where you lot come in :D

First, the facts:

The Case: Custom. I'm making it out of Avionic Aluminium. I have plenty of experience working with it, so it should be easy enough. I'm ripping the Mobo plate out of my old Stacker 810, RIP old friend, your sacrifice will be appreciated for up to 30 minutes.

The Pump: My RD-30. This means, incidentally, that I care little about how restrictive blocks are, because I have some 30+ feet of head to play with.

The Tubing: a mixture of 1/2 and 5/8, same as my old loop. If you need to ask why 5/8, you've never tried to run the usual 7/16 on the intake side of an RD-30.

Now for what I need help with, to wit:

The Rad: Quite simply, I'm not even considering non-Thermochill rads.
My only question here is, 140.3 or 120.4? Keeping in mind I've been running DS14SM-12 fans on my 120.3 for years, so I'm going to be using them with a custom shroud with either of them. Size is not an issue.

The CPU Block: Something tells me a Storm designed for naked single cores is not quite optimal for a Quad under a soldered metal plate. What do I get?

The GPU block: The Piece I have right now is an EK. Should I stick with Eddy's stuff, or is there something better? I'll be running an ATI card in the new rig.

Thank for your time, peepel :)

[NaeKuh]

The CPU Block: Something tells me a Storm designed for naked single cores is not quite optimal for a Quad under a soldered metal plate. What do I get?

The GPU block: The Piece I have right now is an EK. Should I stick with Eddy's stuff, or is there something better? I'll be running an ATI card in the new rig.

Thank for your time, peepel :)

The ApogeeXT is the top dog.
Followed by the HK 3.0, then comes the KL-350.
All those blocks tho have a 80 dollar tag. :P

The GPU block depends on the generation. If its an old EK, i wouldnt recomend you removing it, because chances are your PCB is warped.
GPU blocks all relatively act the same, so if you had good luck with your EK, leave it.

Your question regarding rad.. i would need to know the gpu and cpu..
If your running a smithfield + HD4870X2 then hellz no....

If your running a moderately clocked Quad or a i7, then i dont see any problems with whatever gpu you throw at it.

If your running high clocks on the i7, and high clocks on the gpu... you might get a little disappointed, when watching both load values...

BTW LTNS creidiki...

[Hondacity]

sounds like you got a billion experience points...

HK is highest quality block out there :)

swiftech xt is **** ugly :)

[ChielScape]

>The Rad: Quite simply, I'm not even considering non-Thermochill rads.
I cant say that is very "wise" actually. a GTX starts outperforming it over ~1200 RPM for 25mm thick fans, and less for the 38's. (and even less than that for push/pull and/or shrouds) unless you want the really quiet kind of fans, but that makes me wonder why you wouldnt use a quieter pump as well. i personally wouldnt consider the PA's as a matter of fact, but if you like them that much more power to ya :p
that said, get the 120.4. 120mm fans are just better. while for 140mm fans the PA's are the best of all 140mm rads, its more accurate to say they're the least bad ones. 140mm fans just cant do well on rads. unless you get deltas, but in that case... -> GTX.

>CPU block
Let me recommend the HK 3.0. The swiftech XT is supposed to outperform it a little, but the block baseplates arent exactly up to spec. ive heard several people got damaged plates, with lots of bent pins. and since they're small i fear they might break off and get into the pump.

>GPU
cant go wrong with EK. equally good are koolance, and heatkillers. you could get a dangerden, but they perform the worst of the bunch and are really ugly if you ask me. besides that theyre the most expensive last time i checked.

[Zeus]

I think i've read somewhere that the 120.4 had a tad more surface area and is better suited for use with 120mm fans but with a shroud that won't matter much.

Your love for Yates might come to a halt when you've heard the Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850RPM fans, they're worth checking out.

They give very good static pressure, good airflow, low noise and are very durable. Course they're not cheap. ;)

For cpu blocks, Watercool heatkiller 3.0 used to be king of the hill for quad core cpu's but recently Swiftech released a new one that might be interesting.

Good luck with your new build and welcome back. :)

[creidiki]

A belated hey y'all to all the people here I haven't spoken to in ages.

NaeKuh, I'm changing the GPU and everything, so *shrug* on that.

I'll be running an OC'd i7 and some top-end ATI piece, single card. I don't "do" Xfire/SLI.

ChielScape ... 1200rpm :lol: My D14SMs are hooked to an M-Cubed controller slaved to a digital sensor sunk into a t-piece right before the rad inlet. They usually run @ 450-500rpm.

Also my RD-30 is completely silent, its sitting on a stack of soundproofing and a pad of silicon from Petra's. Its amazing what a little vibration dampening will do for you ...

Anyway, since I'm making the case myself, I'm building it with thick-ass soundproofing in mind - you won't be able to hear anything that's *inside* ... and since I run my fans in pull ... you can't hear anything at all.

Yeah shroud won't matter much, I've been making my custom ones for a while. and I'll be running 140mms regardless because I've found that I get the same temps for less noise. This is, of course, perceptual, and probably down to the lower Hz of the sound coming from a 140. Should I still check out Scythes? They used to be just overpriced rebadged Sony pieces ...

Nice to know Eddy's stuff is well-regarded, he's a top guy :)
I like gabe's blocks too, but I'll probably go for the EK if they're similar, purely because its easier to get replacement tops since he's also in europe.

[NaeKuh]

nah single gpu.... 5800 class?

+

i7?

You'll be fine on either rad with medium fans.
You'll only be disappointed slightly when you have both loaded, or if you were looking for low idle temps.

[creidiki]

Yeah, looking like a 5800 class + i7.

Idle temps are not terribly relevant, or I wouldn't have the fans set to spin down as coolant temp lowers. We're not big on aircon in Italy though, so if there's a better rad for load (which is like 900rpm from my fans, right now), it would be good, so long as its not too noisy a rad, because air temps get to 35c pretty easy in august. I can't seem to find reviews pointing to a large difference between the top-end 4x rads, however. Got a link?

Since the only noise that can be heard is the airflow through the rad, rad noise is an important consideration for me.

[NaeKuh]

Yeah, looking like a 5800 class + i7.

Idle temps are not terribly relevant, or I wouldn't have the fans set to spin down as coolant temp lowers. We're not big on aircon in Italy though, so if there's a better rad for load (which is like 900rpm from my fans, right now), it would be good, so long as its not too noisy a rad, because air temps get to 35c pretty easy in august. I can't seem to find reviews pointing to a large difference between the top-end 4x rads, however. Got a link?

Since the only noise that can be heard is the airflow through the rad, rad noise is an important consideration for me.

my basic rule i use..

Each 120mm ~ 110W of heat source at a low noise output on the fan.

So total up your theoretical heat load, and match the # of 120 next to it.

150W ~ 120mm with 1600rpm fans.
180W ~ 120mm with 2k rpm fans.

As i said its a very big ballpark number, but it should be accurate for what i think your looking for.

creidiki can you afford the space to do push/pull? you can cheat static even more that way.

[creidiki]

Yeah, I can do push-pull easily enough.

It has to be worth it though - going from 8 to 12 fans means putting down cash for another MiniNG (not to mention 4x 140mm fans), as I'd overload the channels otherwise, as the BigNG and MiniNG only push 25W combined each when in Analogue mode.

Rads are surprisingly good sound mufflers, so I'll have to give serious consideration on whether to keep them in pull inside, and possibly having to let them spin up to the full 1400rpm at peak, or having 4 more outside. The latter may make more noise even at lower rpm, which would mean angled baffle, which means lower airflow, which means higher rpm, etc etc.

[NaeKuh]

yeah but 2 fans @ 900 RPMs will generate less noise then 1 @ 1400rpm. :P

on a rad you'd probably almost get the same amount of air though.

Your looking at the lower end of the sound spectrum and not the middle.

[creidiki]

yeah but 2 fans @ 900 RPMs will generate less noise then 1 @ 1400rpm. :P

on a rad you'd probably almost get the same amount of air though.

Your looking at the lower end of the sound spectrum and not the middle.
They do if they're both in the open air. If the single fan is in a soundproofed case, I'm not so sure. I cant' try it out on my rig right now because of lolblownPSU, but most of what I heard when I maxed them was airflow over the rad. Which is a surprisingly loud wind noise, I may add.

And yes, I am very firmly entrenched in the very low end of the noise spectrum :up:

Well, I have to get at least another 5 fans, or 8 if I'm going to go with the Scythes that were mentioned, so I can run a dead-loop test for noise with the Stacker as a test box. Try 3x in pull @ 1400, and 6x in push-pull @ 900-1000, and see which bothers me the least perceptually.

BTW, what are people using for additives these days? I'm still running an old school "add a couple of teaspoons of zerex" mix with Deionised.

Been debating a reservoir for extra lazyness, but its always a pain to find one that works well with an RD-30 without getting noisy vortexes. Sticking with my old sawn-off dvd spindle t-plug, unless someone knows of a nice res that won't gurgle like Charybdis when hooked up to an RD-30.

[ChielScape]

A belated hey y'all to all the people here I haven't spoken to in ages.

NaeKuh, I'm changing the GPU and everything, so *shrug* on that.

I'll be running an OC'd i7 and some top-end ATI piece, single card. I don't "do" Xfire/SLI.

ChielScape ... 1200rpm :lol: My D14SMs are hooked to an M-Cubed controller slaved to a digital sensor sunk into a t-piece right before the rad inlet. They usually run @ 450-500rpm.

Also my RD-30 is completely silent, its sitting on a stack of soundproofing and a pad of silicon from Petra's. Its amazing what a little vibration dampening will do for you ...

Anyway, since I'm making the case myself, I'm building it with thick-ass soundproofing in mind - you won't be able to hear anything that's *inside* ... and since I run my fans in pull ... you can't hear anything at all.

Yeah shroud won't matter much, I've been making my custom ones for a while. and I'll be running 140mms regardless because I've found that I get the same temps for less noise. This is, of course, perceptual, and probably down to the lower Hz of the sound coming from a 140. Should I still check out Scythes? They used to be just overpriced rebadged Sony pieces ...

Nice to know Eddy's stuff is well-regarded, he's a top guy :)
I like gabe's blocks too, but I'll probably go for the EK if they're similar, purely because its easier to get replacement tops since he's also in europe.
just 500 RPM? you may wanna get 2 120.4's then, since you seem to be going over the top anyway. or 140.3's if you pick those.

[creidiki]

The most heat I've had in that loop since I've built it was an Opteron 170 running @ 2.7GHz and an X1900XTX, so yeah, 500rpm kept it about 7c above ambient at 500rpm (idle), spinning to about 900 at load (unless !high summer!). PA120.3 with 3x D14SM-12s in pull.

Since then I've been poor so its been slower, cooler stuff :)

I'm drawing the line at multiple rads however.

Also, poosticks, its raining and I'm stuck in the hotel :(

[dingdong555]

Get the Swiftech XT block, best performing from tests.

[NaeKuh]

BTW, what are people using for additives these days? I'm still running an old school "add a couple of teaspoons of zerex" mix with Deionised.


Straight distilled + Silver is the general consensus now.

[creidiki]

"Silver" being? :)


Get the Swiftech XT block, best performing from tests.

Thermally yeah, but I'm kind of turned off by all the bottom plates with bent pins.

[Vapor]

Killcoil (http://www.petrastechshop.com/sikibyia.html), silver tubing (http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/tysiantu1id3.html) (PTS, Sidewinder, Jab-Tech, and maybe a few others have it), or make-your-own silver coil (http://www.jab-tech.com/Antimicrobial-Silver-Strip-pr-4530.html) :)

Good to see you back :toast:

[NaeKuh]

"Silver" being? :)

a lot of ways..

1. silver plated barbs... although i dont know how long they last, but they seem to work.

2. A killcoil:
http://www.petrastechshop.com/sikibyia.html

3. Colloidal silver additive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloidal_silver

4. Silver Ingot inside Res. (classic but effective route) :P
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/IMG_0006.jpg

[creidiki]

Killcoil (http://www.petrastechshop.com/sikibyia.html)
That looks good enough for me :)

Also, I love the warning. Petra's <3

Good to see you back :toast:
:toast:

edit: btw, what pump setting should I be looking at in your tests, for single RD-30 performance?

[millertime359]

Also, I love the warning. Petra's <3



:ROTF::ROTF:

I never noticed that warning before. That is great.

[v0dka]

Why do you insist on one 3 or 4 x 120mm when there is also a 9 x 120 mm for example? If sound is your main concern you need surface area. Price can't be the issue because the mo-ra is not expensive (not counting 9 good fans :D ).

You could incorporate the design of the mo-ra into the side of the case perhaps, because you are building it yourself. Now if you create some way to add decent airflow through the case and the rad as well, that would most definately make an interesting build.

[creidiki]

The MoRa 2 performs very well, an yes, its relatively cheap, and yes, I could incorporate it into my case. However:

Balanced airflow with an internally-mounted MoRa 2 means a case with 18x120mm fans.

As much as I like the MoRa's thermal performance, I want 18 fans in my room about as much as I want to have my scrotum nailgun'd to the wall. I'm hoping to have it done with 8x140mm altogether.

[Weevil]

swiftech xt is **** ugly :)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Zeus]

The MoRa 2 performs very well, an yes, its relatively cheap, and yes, I could incorporate it into my case. However:

Balanced airflow with an internally-mounted MoRa 2 means a case with 18x120mm fans.

As much as I like the MoRa's thermal performance, I want 18 fans in my room about as much as I want to have my scrotum nailgun'd to the wall. I'm hoping to have it done with 8x140mm altogether.

Maybe not.

Maybe you could just do like this guy and use 4x180mm fans (or 4x each side?): http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4083934&postcount=17

Here's the entire thread:http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=235564

How about having it nailgunned to your leg? :D

[creidiki]

All the 180s I've found look kinda rubbish however :D

I think I'll go for 8x GT 1850s, 4 in pull on a 120x4 rad, and 4 on the case.

... still can't decide on the rad. Guess I need to look @ more tests.

[NaeKuh]

All the 180s I've found look kinda rubbish however :D

I think I'll go for 8x GT 1850s, 4 in pull on a 120x4 rad, and 4 on the case.


What creidiki.. lemme turn down my hovercraft.. i cant hear you.. :rolleyes:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/IMG_0113.jpg

:rofl:

[creidiki]

Heh. I have a couple of high-end Delta fans at home. I use them as indoor "leaf blowers". When a couple of weeks of papery debris & tobacco (I smoke rollups) accumulates on the floor, I hook up one of the focused flow jobbies and blow them to the door.

... about all they're good for, tbfh :P

[v0dka]

The MoRa 2 performs very well, an yes, its relatively cheap, and yes, I could incorporate it into my case. However:

Balanced airflow with an internally-mounted MoRa 2 means a case with 18x120mm fans.

As much as I like the MoRa's thermal performance, I want 18 fans in my room about as much as I want to have my scrotum nailgun'd to the wall. I'm hoping to have it done with 8x140mm altogether.

Very funny but wrong. :)

If you create over- or underpressure in your case there might be more than enough airflow already (for a normal system). It's worth looking at imo. Not only because you can fit that rad as the only person in the world, but also because you can create a case without 1000's of holes losing air everywhere. Sealed case, just with an open rad area, and one or two 200mm in/outtake fans at low speed.

Not sure about the performance of that, but noise won't be a problem.

[eth0s]

Creidiki: Are you still deciding between the 140.3 and a 120.4? You seem to be going back and forth, so I can't tell if you made up your mind yet. If you are still undecided, I would say get the 140.3. Since noise is your main concern, the 140.3 is a better choice for you, because you will get more CFM from a 140mm fan at 500 rpm's than from a 120mm fan at same speed. Also 140.3 has more windward surface area than a 120.4:

Windward surface area of 140.3 rad = 588 cm^2

Windward surface area of 120.4 rad = 576 cm^2

IMHO it would be a total waste to put a 3x120mm shroud on a 140.3 rad. Just use 140mm fans.

You mentioned the Gentle Typhoon 1850's, which are great fans, btw, I have 8 of them. They are about as loud as the Scythe S-Flex "F" fans, but blow a bit more air. But they are NOT silent at stock speed. If you are going to undervolt them anyway, why not just get some slow 140mm fans? Using your logic of balanced case pressure, I think you could get by with 6 x 140mm fans (@<1000 rpm), which would be pretty darned quiet, and push a decent amount of air over your rad. These Yates look pretty good: http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=316&products_id=22818&zenid=4c6d5edb516730a91e0678e8dd6e4ec0

140mm is the way forward my brothers, and I think you can all see it coming (at least I can).

[NaeKuh]

why is everyone blabbing about the xt being the top dog:P its was tested against a heatkiller LT.

*sigh*

Your thinking LC bud...

The lowest model is the LC with the different plate.

The LT and CU have the same plate.

The top to the CU is copper, and if u say that actually does something, get ready for a face palm from me and a bunch of other guys.

I dont like HK. (And a lot of others on this forum as well)
They came on our forum very hard.

[creidiki]

Creidiki: Are you still deciding between the 140.3 and a 120.4? You seem to be going back and forth, so I can't tell if you made up your mind yet. If you are still undecided, I would say get the 140.3. Since noise is your main concern, the 140.3 is a better choice for you, because you will get more CFM from a 140mm fan at 500 rpm's than from a 120mm fan at same speed. Also 140.3 has more windward surface area than a 120.4:

Windward surface area of 140.3 rad = 588 cm^2

Windward surface area of 120.4 rad = 576 cm^2

IMHO it would be a total waste to put a 3x120mm shroud on a 140.3 rad. Just use 140mm fans.

You mentioned the Gentle Typhoon 1850's, which are great fans, btw, I have 8 of them. They are about as loud as the Scythe S-Flex "F" fans, but blow a bit more air. But they are NOT silent at stock speed. If you are going to undervolt them anyway, why not just get some slow 140mm fans? Using your logic of balanced case pressure, I think you could get by with 6 x 140mm fans (@<1000 rpm), which would be pretty darned quiet, and push a decent amount of air over your rad. These Yates look pretty good: http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=316&products_id=22818&zenid=4c6d5edb516730a91e0678e8dd6e4ec0

140mm is the way forward my brothers, and I think you can all see it coming (at least I can).

I'm already running 3x Yate Loon D14SM-12s on a PA120.3 (custom shroud). If I'm going to upgrade, I'm going quad, tbfh.

What I'm tittering between is:


Sticking with Thermochill for my next rad, or going to some other maker?
More D14SM-12s, or Scythe GT 1850s?


To elaborate a bit:

I live in an old house (medieval) that has no aircon, so temps go betwen 15c at winter (until I fire up the wood stove at night) and 35-40c w. 90% humidity in high summer @ noon.

So the rad/fan combination has to be able to run real quiet @ idle and in winter loads, and not blow up in the summer.

The current setup does it, but won't cope with what I'm planning to slap under it.

Looking at tests, Thermochills still seem to be pretty good, and a good compromise considering my wide utilization load. But I'm open to suggestions. :shrug:

Fan-wise, my D14s are pretty nice, and undervolt very nicely (they'll start spinning with a bare 3.5v, and keep ticking over @ 3.0v), but they're not quiet at max speed either, like the GTs. So again, I'm open to suggestions, though I doubt I'll find anyone who's tested them one against the other :)

[Vapor]

The top to the CU is copper, and if u say that actually does something, get ready for a face palm from me and a bunch of other guys.I always assumed metal tops did nothing for performance (though the purported "radiator effect" is a myth), but it definitely did for the GTZ -> GTZ SE. I'll have HK3.0 Copper testing done next week, using my LT's base for apples to apple comparison (bases within a model line DO vary...XTs are a visible example of this, but there is [and always will be] variation that can not be chalked up to visible differences). Anyway, that's neither here nor there when it comes to creidiki's thread :p:
...........


Anyway, creidiki, here's my take :)

Radiators
PA140.3 vs. PA120.4....with everything being even, I'd take the 140.3. Unfortunately everything isn't even--there are some incredibly good 120mm fans whereas the 140mm fan market is still immature. Gentle Typhoons (http://www.petrastechshop.com/12scgetyd1ca.html) are loved by everybody. I don't think a single person has ever had a complaint about them (aside from aesthetics). In martinm210's tests, their airflow through a radiator at a given noise level was untouchable by S-Flex, Yates, etc. They also sip power (~1W at ~1800RPM), so hooking up a bunch of them to a single port on fan controller, even a weak fan controller, is a-okay.

If you can afford it (monetarily and in terms of thickness), push+pull is also extremely effective at low RPM. Pressure scales with the square of RPM, so when you go down to 400-600RPM, the PQ curve of a fan gets very short. Putting two fans in series doubles the height and gives it a much healthier PQ curve :yepp:

In my tinkering, I found that in terms of airflow through a radiator vs. noise, push-pull is extremely efficient up until ~2500RPM on 120mm fans (generic statement, yeah). Noise efficacy of push+pull was outstandingly awesome at very low RPM! (for the record, I'd take push+pull Yates over just push-or-pull Gentle Typhoons for <800RPM)

Which comes full circle back to 140.3 vs 120.4. If it boils down to push+pull 140mm Yates (http://www.petrastechshop.com/140x25mmfans.html) vs. push-or-pull 120mm Gentle Typhoons, my gut is that the 140.3 will be the way to go.

Also, if you know you'll be at <1000RPM all the time, no need to get the 1850RPM GTs, get the slower 1450RPM GTs (they should be a little happier at <1000RPM).

Pump
You have an RD-30, you know what you're doing :p:

Tubing
I think you'll be really impressed by Primochill LRT Pro 1/2" in every aspect of it, but especially its elasticity and ability to be stretched over a large barb. In my testbed loop, I use it and it goes over a large barb with a .663" OD without much difficulty. I can almost get the 7/16"-5/8" tubing over the same barb (yes, the OD of the barb is bigger than the OD of the tubing!) using the pliers method....that's how flexible this tubing is. I'm also pretty sure it's strong enough to not collapse at the inlet of an RD-30 @ 24v. Not positive though. All told, I think you should be able to avoid using 5/8" ID tubing on the RD-30's barbs.

CPU Block
I think you'll be impressed by the XT, it's the most impressive block I've tested so far, that's for sure :) Considering your pump though (esp using variable voltage supply), you might have more fun with a block that's more responsive to changes in flow...putting the HK3.0 + Silicone mod right up your alley.

GPU Block
I guess just look at pictures and prices and decide what you like best, in terms of raw performance differences (in terms of GPU performance), they're intangible.

[creidiki]

Hmmm, infodump eh? I likes it :D

Ok:

Radiator: Unfortunately, I know my fans will have to go above 1000rpm @ load for ~3 months of the year, because of above mentioned lolsummertemps. And as much as I love my D14s - and as one of the earliest adopters of 140mm fans - I have to agree with you viz. the immaturity of the 140mm market.

I'm really veering towards GTs in push-pull, and since the above mentioned summer temps cause my choice of mid-speed D14s, I think I'll go for the 1850s.
Because I've found that since I don't bench, the only time I'm at load I'm playing games, and I doubt I'll be able to hear them over an 800W 5.1 system, but I don't like having to back down on my OC in the summer. How far down have you been able to take the volts on GT 1850s and not have them stop? One of the things I love about the T-Ban is the separate starting/minimum running voltage settings ...

Given that I think a quad, would you go for a Thermochill?

Pump: Yup :yepp: :D

Tubing: noted, sounds good to me. I've still got some leftover 5/8, I can do a small stretch between the t-piece and the inlet, just in case - the suction of an RD-30s inlet @ 24v is BRUTAL.

CPU: Tell me more about this HK + Silicone mod.

GPU: Ya, still undecided, looks don't matter jack to me (I run closed cases with no windows or UV tomfoolery, and solid delrin tops) so I'll probably go with whatever has the most water flowing over the PWMs

[ChielScape]

i cant really say 1000rpm would be all that horrible... i run at 1300 or so idle, up to 3000 depending on temps. only after that does it start to get annoying.

also, XSPC RX480.
or better yet, watercool MO-RA 2. its a 9 fan rad though.
http://www.abload.de/img/6005orc.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/800xq07.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/12007251.jpg

[Vapor]

Hmmm, infodump eh? I likes it :D

Ok:

Radiator: Unfortunately, I know my fans will have to go above 1000rpm @ load for ~3 months of the year, because of above mentioned lolsummertemps. And as much as I love my D14s - and as one of the earliest adopters of 140mm fans - I have to agree with you viz. the immaturity of the 140mm market.

I'm really veering towards GTs in push-pull, and since the above mentioned summer temps cause my choice of mid-speed D14s, I think I'll go for the 1850s.
Because I've found that since I don't bench, the only time I'm at load I'm playing games, and I doubt I'll be able to hear them over an 800W 5.1 system, but I don't like having to back down on my OC in the summer. How far down have you been able to take the volts on GT 1850s and not have them stop? One of the things I love about the T-Ban is the separate starting/minimum running voltage settings ...

Given that I think a quad, would you go for a Thermochill?

Pump: Yup :yepp: :D

Tubing: noted, sounds good to me. I've still got some leftover 5/8, I can do a small stretch between the t-piece and the inlet, just in case - the suction of an RD-30s inlet @ 24v is BRUTAL.

CPU: Tell me more about this HK + Silicone mod.

GPU: Ya, still undecided, looks don't matter jack to me (I run closed cases with no windows or UV tomfoolery, and solid delrin tops) so I'll probably go with whatever has the most water flowing over the PWMsYeah, I guess it was a bit of an info dump. Neglected to include something though: your best option is push+pull with GTs on the 120x4, so glad you decided on that :up:

Based on Skinnee's data with the 3x120 versions of these radiators, I don't think you're going to see any difference between XSPC or TC or Swiftech.

http://www.skinneelabs.com/Radiators/Triple-Rad_5C-Delta.jpg
Somewhere around here, skinnee has posted a chart that includes those three as well as the GTX360, SR1 360, stacked MCR320s, and TFC 360....I can't find it....regardless though, the chart I posted has your most solid options for the RPMs you're looking at. GTX and MCRs stacked have significant fall-off at low RPMs, the TFC is really good between 1000-1800RPMs, but again falls off at lower RPMs, and the SR1 is slightly leading the pack at <800RPM but has oddly poor performance between 1000RPM and 1800RPM. So all told, Thermochill is more than a solid option, it's a great option. No other 480 radiator will give noticeably better performance at less than ~2000RPM. :)


As for the HK + silicone mod, I touched on it briefly in my HK testing here: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=235916 The mod is pretty easy, you take the internal stainless steel plate out and apply a ~1mm thick layer of silicone to it (RTV, caulk, whatever--just as long as it's 100% silicone) and let it dry and install it so the silicone is against the microchannels.

Functionally, it does a few things: 1) it prevents flow from going over the microchannels (which is a problem in the HKs) and 2) it slightly modifies and enforces the bow 'better.' It's a pretty functional little trick, works on a lot of blocks actually (XT included, but not as effective since there's already an o-ring there partially doing the job of the silicone 'pad' the mod creates).

[NaeKuh]

LOL which is why i told creidiki this:


my basic rule i use..

Each 120mm ~ 110W of heat source at a low noise output on the fan.

So total up your theoretical heat load, and match the # of 120 next to it.

150W ~ 120mm with 1600rpm fans.
180W ~ 120mm with 2k rpm fans.

As i said its a very big ballpark number, but it should be accurate for what i think your looking for.


I hope you remember how to total heat wattage. :rofl:
Im pretty sure you didnt forget. :P

[Conumdrum]

Just a thought. I have been following this. What a wonderful enlightening thread covering so many bases. Great minds do wonders together, great reading here. XS at 110%:yepp::yepp:

[creidiki]

Heh, I like the silicone mod, I have a few tricks like that in my loops.

And my RD will laugh quietly to itself at the LT+'s increased pressure drop. :hehe:

I've been thinking about the case's design all day, I guess I'll try to put some lolTEHHORROR paint drawings up in the next few days, bounce some ideas off you lot.

[Marci]

Re: the case design - Radiator of choice as INLET... Enough fans to create higher airflow at exhaust than at inlet. Get negative pressure inside the case due to higher exhaust than inlet... will improve airflow thru any rad (effectively push/pull with a big-ass shroud). Skip the drawings and use Sketchup...


while for 140mm fans the PA's are the best of all 140mm rads, its more accurate to say they're the least bad ones. 140mm fans just cant do well on rads.
Thus far no-one has designed the rad specifically to match the fans available. That's the issue. Upscaling a 120mm rad design with a few blin tweaks is not creating a 140mm rad. It's just making a bigger 120mm rad then strapping the wrong fans to it cos they fit. That's the key issue with them. They could be so much better if appropriate prototyping and testing was done on them before release, rather than simply rushing to release to a market purely because there is the perception of demand for them (hence everyone has merely upscaled and shoved it out the door).

[creidiki]

Hey Marci! :wave:

Re: the case design - Radiator of choice as INLET... Enough fans to create higher airflow at exhaust than at inlet. Get negative pressure inside the case due to higher exhaust than inlet... will improve airflow thru any rad (effectively push/pull with a big-ass shroud).
Ya, that's what I was thinking last night, 1450s on intlet (rad), 1850s on outlet, tune the temperature response curves in my T-Ban ...

Skip the drawings and use Sketchup...
Good idea, that :)

Thus far no-one has designed the rad specifically to match the fans available. That's the issue. Upscaling a 120mm rad design with a few blin tweaks is not creating a 140mm rad. It's just making a bigger 120mm rad then strapping the wrong fans to it cos they fit. That's the key issue with them. They could be so much better if appropriate prototyping and testing was done on them before release, rather than simply rushing to release to a market purely because there is the perception of demand for them (hence everyone has merely upscaled and shoved it out the door).
140mm fans suffer from the same issues. I can't speak for other makes, but while the motors on my D14s are great - one in particular will start with just 3.1v and keep spinning with 2.4v, at which point its barely ticking over @ ~250rpm - the limitations of a straight 120x25 design upscale are evident as soon as you feed them 12v: 90% of the noise comes from the forward-swept blade-tips fluttering and sounding like distant prop aircraft.

[Vapor]

The amount of airflow restriction a radiator creates is pretty big, you're going to have negative pressure if you have equal fans at inlet and outlet (with a rad at the inlet).

That said push+pull+rad of 1450s is probably a good match for exhaust 1850s :)

[creidiki]

Oh boy. I was never particulalry good with 3D modelling tools, but I'm hilariously awful at Sketchup. Anyhoo:

Pretend that the 4 intake fans have a rad after them, etc etc.

[eXa]

Jay! Creidiki!


I'm ripping the Mobo plate out of my old Stacker 810, RIP old friend

But noooo.... not the good old 810. I love that(yours) case.

my stc-01 with 3x 140yates (pa120.3->pa140.3) will never be retired, id rather keep it as a 2. machine than turn it off :p

[eXa]

That is a huuuge case. if you keep it fairly airthight you will get the effect Marci was talking about. The fans in the back will help pull air though the rad. even if you use the same 4 fans in the back as in the front you will still get negative pressure because of the 5. fan in the psu.

[creidiki]

eXa :D

Well, I could rip a cheap case apart to get the 5.25" rails and the mobo tray .. we'll see.

And yeah, the case is HUGE. I ended up crammed like a sardine can inside the stacker, believe or not, now I want SPACE. :D

The PSU will have its own little compartment, likely as not. I just could not be arsed to draw it in last night when I was faffing about in sketchup.

[creidiki]

Hey, anyone know about HD racks/coolers/blah?

I've got 2 Cooler Master 4-in-3s that came with my stacker, they're nice for the inbuilt 120mm fan mount but a bit chunky, and I've seen the MountainMods one, are there any other options? I'm particularly interested in ones with cooling fins, if it houses more than one HD that's a bonus, as I usually run 3/4 HDs.

[Marci]

tbh, cooling fins not required if you use the MM ones that bolt to 120mm fans (http://www.mountainmods.com/120mm-hard-drive-rack-brushed-alu-p-326.html) - stick em on the back of your inlet fans mounted in pull on the radiator - so radiator mounted directly to case, which facilitates easier cleaning of the radiator core also. You can mount 3 HDDs per 120mm fan iirc... Altho, if you decide to go in push, they will also bolt directly to your rad's 120mm fan mounts on the opposite face...

A lot of places in UK that premodify cases etc may well have the LianLi 3.5" uprights from the v2x00 series or the U-brackets from the v1x00 series cases which can be handy also. Last spotted some on KustomPCs - but we are talking in excess of 18months ago when last I looked.

If it's space you're after tho - flog all your 3.5" HDDs and replace with 2.5" 7200 or 10k SATA drives... then with a bit of tweaking you could probably mount 6x drives in one set of the MM brackets.

[creidiki]

Not really space. I'll mount them the way I have it mounted in my stacker, which is the HDs hanging from the top of the case in a rack bolted with silentblocks. You'll notice there's plenty of space for that behind the optical drives in my lolsketchup

The CM 4-in-3 work well enough, but don't cool as well as they could, so I'm looking for options. Would you say the MM ones cool better? I used to have them mounted behind the rad when I was starting out and I had a PA120.2, but with 4/4 HDs mounted in the CM they have an air resistance value that approaches the infinite, as its basically a solid wall of metal. I remember my temps increasing substantially after I moved them. Of course this is like, years ago, so I may be lying to myself ...

[Mescalamba]

HK 3.0 CU or LT (depends on bling factor you want)

Switch all tubing to same size, if you can, biggest = better, if you want max performace you can get

Rads - GTX not bad.. heard about Feser Monsta? :) Thats beast..

HK for GPU is good choice too, especially if you don´t need to care about restriction of your loop. Plus they look really great.

Fans, I like Yate Loon a lot.. especially those highspeed ones. :D 120mm - 3000 RPM or 140mm 2800 RPM? :)

Thats just my opinon.. you´ll create your own loop anyway.

Btw. as for case.. SilverStone Raven has detachable back, which is designed to hold radiator. Plus they even supply case with mounting brackets for rad. And its big, black and beautiful. :D

[eXa]

You are going with naked drives, not something like scythe quietdrive?

[creidiki]

Something with good soundprofing but bad cooling like a QuietDrive would be kinda pointless for my purposes, because: A) the HDs will be inside a soundproofed case and slung from silentblocks anyway, so I don't need silencers of any kind, and B) the obligatory 10000RPM OS drive will cook in one.

I need the reverse :D

[eXa]

skip the 10k rpm os drive, Creidiki. Go with a ssd for os drive, 64gb i guess. then use big normal drives for storage, 1.5gb+.

unless you already have the 10k rpm os drive that is...(ssd is still better tho)

[creidiki]

Already planning a pair of WD 1.5TB in RAID-1 for data :)

Guess I'll go for a 128GB SSD (with games like Dragon Age taking 15GB+, 64 is a tad small) for the OS.

Anyway, the issue remains, I need cooling for the data drives, not silencing :D

Before anyone asks, no, I will not be watercooling the HDs.

[eXa]

i dont think you need more than a slow moving 120mm (140mm) blowing on them to keep them cool enough tho...

Edit: So the focus should be more on something that you are positive about that wont transfer vibration and seek noise to th the case.

[creidiki]

That's covered, however: the mountings I'm using right now will do it alone, and I'm going to improve on them anyway.

Edit: in summer I have 35c+ ambient, and the HDs will be inside the case floating in air heated by the rad. I do not want to cook them, hence I need good cooling for them.

[phelan1777]

WOOT....I love threads like this, god I miss these, peeps crawlin out of the wood work.

Now if I could just find gainful employment again I can get back into WCing!

Cred WE WANT PICS!:up:



Don't be hatin on these bad boys! :P

What creidiki.. lemme turn down my hovercraft.. i cant hear you.. :rolleyes:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/IMG_0113.jpg

:rofl:

[creidiki]

Pics won't be forthcoming for months, I'm afraid. :(

I'll be in Arizona until December 14th, then there's the Xmas holidays, which me being Italian are long and involved, and then I may be back in Arizona for another month in the second half of January.

None of this will likely get going before the end of February.

On the other hand, it gives me plenty of time to gather moneys :3

[eXa]

Hmm you got a point, i guess the drives easily can hit 60C in the summer. i myself is not comfortable with drives above 50C.

[Sparky]

Oh snap.

creidiki reappears, then marci shows up :shocked:

You guys have made my day. Glad to have you two back!

[Hondacity]

Martin showed up too :)

[eXa]

Good ol` days :p:

[phelan1777]

Pics won't be forthcoming for months, I'm afraid. :(

I'll be in Arizona until December 14th, then there's the Xmas holidays, which me being Italian are long and involved, and then I may be back in Arizona for another month in the second half of January.

None of this will likely get going before the end of February.

On the other hand, it gives me plenty of time to gather moneys :3

Time is irrelevant I just said "WE WANT PICS":D

So feel that nagging in the back of your mind, that is we folk here @ XS watching the clock >cough cough< :ROTF::D

[creidiki]

Oh snap.

creidiki reappears, then marci shows up :shocked:
It's all happening, baby! :yepp: :lol2:

ninjaedit: I should rename this thread "creid's old fart pub & social club", wot?

[phelan1777]

It's all happening, baby! :yepp: :lol2:

ninjaedit: I should rename this thread "creid's old fart pub & social club", wot?

If you do that, it might entice the "old farts" we have floating around in the folding/crunching section. >whistles innocently< then this thread would surely take on a life of it's own:rofl: