Heat Exchanger in toilet's FLUSH

[ggdh]

Yesterday when doing my evening routine I thought about placing a heat exchanger in a flush. My rig is placed less than 2m (in straight line) from the toilet (bedroom en suit) and I can't see ANY major drawback of this idea :ROTF:

PROS:
- water has much larger heat capacity than air,
- water will conduct heat much more efficiently than air,
- in a flush it would be exchanged regularly - and if not still there is 8-10l o water,
- placing small turbine in a flush is not a problem,
- noise reduction ( no fans working in a case),
- it could be set up as additional cooling loop for the existing "ordinary" WC system.

CONS:
- heat exchanger itself, can't be just a radiator due to oxidation,
- home-made exchanger (copper pipes + some copper fins) will cause radical pressure drop ->
- required second pump means more noise,
- ... ?


Any opinions? Will that make sense (it is not important really:rofl::D)? It would be cheap-o, buying list would be short: copper pipes+copper sheets for "fins"+tubes+extra pump+extra reservoir.

[the_dope_chaud]

Thats actually a descent idea. Maybe a bit hard to implement, but feasable.
Imagine, you could even warm up you old lady's bath....

[Hornet331]

Watter may ha a higher cp then air, but your limited in your volume. The 8-10 liters will rech the same temp as the coolant quite quick. I guess within 1h, so if your not planing to flush your toilet every 30 min stick to air cooling your rads...

But you have another choise, you could connect your waterloop to the cold water conduit, 12°C even in the summer. :p:

[ggdh]

The cool thing is that in Ireland water is for free... (yeah, environmentalists will eat me soon)

[Zeus]

Another pro: you'll be flushing your toilet with nice warm water! :D

You should make one or a couple of coils out of flexible copper pipe like the coils seen in phase change cooling devices.

This will give the least pressure drop i think.

[Shlomo]

Ah nevermind I misunderstood.

Honestly it sounds like a plan to me.

[ggdh]

This will give the least pressure drop i think.

This would be my biggest concern. I have DDC 1T working in my loop and i'm pretty sure that it would be not enough for loop + ~4m of tubes + >1m of copper coils. On the other hand additional pump would sit close/in the flush (no noise in a room).

General idea would be to have loop as now in a case and quick disconnects/valves going to and from... bathroom.

[ggdh]

And yeah... i will have to tell my girlfriend about this plan :confused:->:ROTF:->:rofl:-> and hopefully :up:

[Jonni Nitro]

If nothing else it will be a nice conversation piece. My thought is that bacteria+warm water= nasty algae and fungus growing in your toilet bowl.

[ggdh]

OK.

Topic will be a worklog soon :up:

[MoMo_RT]

If water is free don't bother with the toilet... Just tap a tank into the cold water line and give it constant inlet and outlet flow. That would keep the water refreshed at all times and you can put a shutoff valve on the tank outlet so you can stop the flow when the computer isn't in use. That way you could put the tank anywhere you want and possibly eliminate computer coolant tube length.

[3Z3VH]

If nothing else it will be a nice conversation piece. My thought is that bacteria+warm water= nasty algae and fungus growing in your toilet bowl.

This would not be an issue if he flushes the toilet more often than once a month.

[p0opstlnksal0t]

id experiment to see how long it takes to warm the 1.6 gallons of water in the tank. might not be feasible if within an hour the water in the tank gets too hot.

[ggdh]

Damn, i've checked the flush. It's rather tight :/ it will be difficult to fit there some coils. It might be a time to buy new flush...

[Welshman666]

The cool thing is that in Ireland water is for free... (yeah, environmentalists will eat me soon)

it may be free but its horrible:P lol

[eth0s]

Just because the water does not cost you any money does not mean it is "free", obviously, all of your neighbors will bear the cost of your profligate use of water through their taxes, as you proceed to waste more than your fair share. Using continuous running water to cool your computer is both immoral and unethical, and you would be helping to destroy the planet. And flushing your toilet unnecessarily throughout the day would be just as immoral and unethical, just at a slower pace.

However, the essence of your idea could be harnessed in a morally and ethically beneficent way, and it could help save the planet: just move your "heat exchanger" from the toilet to a water tank. The water tank must be of sufficient size (you will need to do some mathematical calculations to figure out the minimum size) so that you will not boil the water. As long as the water in the tank remains below 100C (at sea level, boiling point will be lower for higher elevations), then you will continue to "cool" your rig. If the tank is sufficiently big, you will heat the water and will eventually reach some steady state temp of the water in the tank and in your loop. Maybe it will be 80C or 60C or 40C, it really depends on the size of the tank and the rate of heat loss from the tank to the air (i.e., a big flat rectangular tank with lots of surface area exposed to the air would lose heat faster, and a tall, enclosed cylindrical tank would lose heat more slowly). But it will work to dissipate heat from your computer, and you will have a source of warm or even hot water to use in your house that you created with recycled energy that would have otherwise been lost. However, the cooling performance will probably be worse than a standard 360 rad with three low-speed fans on it.

[HotGore]

Just because the water does not cost you any money does not mean it is "free", obviously, all of your neighbors will bear the cost of your profligate use of water through their taxes, as you proceed to waste more than your fair share. Using continuous running water to cool your computer is both immoral and unethical, and you would be helping to destroy the planet. And flushing your toilet unnecessarily throughout the day would be just as immoral and unethical, just at a slower pace.

However, the essence of your idea could be harnessed in a morally and ethically beneficent way, and it could help save the planet: just move your "heat exchanger" from the toilet to a water tank. The water tank must be of sufficient size (you will need to do some mathematical calculations to figure out the minimum size) so that you will not boil the water. As long as the water in the tank remains below 100C (at sea level, boiling point will be lower for higher elevations), then you will continue to "cool" your rig. If the tank is sufficiently big, you will heat the water and will eventually reach some steady state temp of the water in the tank and in your loop. Maybe it will be 80C or 60C or 40C, it really depends on the size of the tank and the rate of heat loss from the tank to the air (i.e., a big flat rectangular tank with lots of surface area exposed to the air would lose heat faster, and a tall, enclosed cylindrical tank would lose heat more slowly). But it will work to dissipate heat from your computer, and you will have a source of warm or even hot water to use in your house that you created with recycled energy that would have otherwise been lost. However, the cooling performance will probably be worse than a standard 360 rad with three low-speed fans on it.

Sometimes ethics get in the way of being Xtreme!

[MoMo_RT]

Just because the water does not cost you any money does not mean it is "free", obviously, all of your neighbors will bear the cost of your profligate use of water through their taxes, as you proceed to waste more than your fair share. Using continuous running water to cool your computer is both immoral and unethical, and you would be helping to destroy the planet. And flushing your toilet unnecessarily throughout the day would be just as immoral and unethical, just at a slower pace.

However, the essence of your idea could be harnessed in a morally and ethically beneficent way, and it could help save the planet: just move your "heat exchanger" from the toilet to a water tank. The water tank must be of sufficient size (you will need to do some mathematical calculations to figure out the minimum size) so that you will not boil the water. As long as the water in the tank remains below 100C (at sea level, boiling point will be lower for higher elevations), then you will continue to "cool" your rig. If the tank is sufficiently big, you will heat the water and will eventually reach some steady state temp of the water in the tank and in your loop. Maybe it will be 80C or 60C or 40C, it really depends on the size of the tank and the rate of heat loss from the tank to the air (i.e., a big flat rectangular tank with lots of surface area exposed to the air would lose heat faster, and a tall, enclosed cylindrical tank would lose heat more slowly). But it will work to dissipate heat from your computer, and you will have a source of warm or even hot water to use in your house that you created with recycled energy that would have otherwise been lost. However, the cooling performance will probably be worse than a standard 360 rad with three low-speed fans on it.

If someone was going that route they could just get a 50 gallon tank and have their pump pull directly from it... Some sort of heat dissipation could be used to slowly keep the tank cooled but if you are circulating 50 gallons of water (pull from the bottom and push water back into the top) it would probably never end up warming up much. you can even add a gap at the top of the tank and something like a shower head so the water spreads out then falls into the tank. Spreading the water into smaller streams and letting it fall a foot or so before joining the rest of the water would in turn provide a bit of cooling too... I think this is a bit more extreme than using the pisser and is going beyond what the OP had in mind.

[DonNiger]

Correct me if I amwrong....

To heat up 1 liter of water by 1c, it takes 4180J of heat (at room temperature). 1J = 1w/s.

41,840 watts will heat 10 liters up by 1C every second.
20,920 watts will heat 10 liters up by 1C every 2 seconds.
10,460 watts will heat 10 liters up by 1C every 4 seconds.

You computer ......(max) 200W ~ would heat 10 l up by 1c with 209s.
Starting from 14c up to 60c, it would take 2h 40 minutes in perfect condition.
My point is, it takes hell of a lot of time to heat up 10l of water by 24/7 computer (and if the tank is not insulated, there will be a "leak" and that leak will increase according to the difference between the room and the tank temperature - in other words, your computer will heat up your toilet, if you do not use it :) Central heating isn't free of carge, I guess)


Actually, I just wanted to let you know: subscribed and waiting for some test results :up:

[ggdh]

You are not wrong.

+ the fact that toilet+flush are made of ceramic material which is rather (very) good heat conductor. Why? Just touch it, it feels cold, much colder that surrounding air. It will dissipate heat much faster than the interface water-air.

There is no option of heaving large water tank - i will even not ask my GF ;)
If i will not be able to fit anything in the flush i will consider heaving average size (20l) water tank tapped where would be a slow and continuous water exchange.

Need to think. More comments suggestions appreciated.

[dengyong]

Using continuous running water to cool your computer is both immoral and unethical, and you would be helping to destroy the planet.

You've been watching too much current TV. :nuts:

All the water that ever was on this planet..... is still on this planet.

It is totally impossible to destroy the planet by running tap water.

[Hondacity]

You are not wrong.

+ the fact that toilet+flush are made of ceramic material which is rather (very) good heat conductor. Why? Just touch it, it feels cold, much colder that surrounding air. It will dissipate heat much faster than the interface water-air.
More comments suggestions appreciated.


false

get your info straight....

[Boogerlad]

it's better than air.

[ggdh]

it's better than air.

True, but he's right. Ceramic is a bad heat conductor comparing to i.e. copper. But way much better than air.

[twwen2]

Just because the water does not cost you any money does not mean it is "free", obviously, all of your neighbors will bear the cost of your profligate use of water through their taxes, as you proceed to waste more than your fair share. Using continuous running water to cool your computer is both immoral and unethical, and you would be helping to destroy the planet. And flushing your toilet unnecessarily throughout the day would be just as immoral and unethical, just at a slower pace.
...

Yadayadayada... :yawn2:


You've been watching too much current TV. :nuts:

All the water that ever was on this planet..... is still on this planet.
It is totally impossible to destroy the planet by running tap water.

Lol, exactly.

On topic: This is a ridiculously silly idea and i love it. Can't wait to see it in practice!

[T.Goat]

Tell your girlfriend that you can run a loop of tubing under the seat so that it's nice and warm...

[Chumbucket843]

are you still going to use the toilet for the stuff normal people use toilets for?that would be gross.

[Gamekiller]

Got some turd in your heat exchanger?

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/346/captainplanet.jpg

Captain Planet, he's our hero? :p:

Anyways, bad idea... it costs electricity to filter that water (even if it's still nasty) and to pump it to you. There are far better ways to cool your computer.

[ggdh]

If I would put wasting of water on a one side of the balance and what i'm doing for living on the other side believe me - I could waste thousands of litres/day and still live with it.

Moral aspect is not an issue. Not in here (and please, don't you, US guys try to teach me about saving water, don't be hypocrites... and yes, i'm generalizing)

peace

[ggdh]

Cooper pipe bought, pump+res solved (old-ish XSPC dualbay), tubes found, loads of will, lack of time.

Update after the weekend.

[MoMo_RT]

Ha I was uncertain about this idea but when I saw that last post that you bought the supplies I'll admit it made me smile a bit. There are more efficient ways to do this but I cant wait to see it done regardless. Will look forward to a work log.

[ggdh]

First attempt - failure. There is no way to nicely bend copper pipes that i bought. They will kink -no matter how hot they will be. Tomorrow another visit in DIY store to get some knee joints. Many of them. Preferably pre-tinned.

Maybe somebody faced the problem of bending pipes (1/2")? I tried to bend it on steel pipes (different diameters) with no luck :shakes:

[Waterlogged]

Copper hard line simply won't bend, you need soft copper lines for that, like what's used in refrigeration units. It's usually called "Type L" (medium pressure) or "Type K" (high pressure).

[ggdh]

Damn. Where to get those? I'm pretty limited to DIY stores which are not the best in Ireland. I will give it a try tomorrow with knees.

[Hornet331]

Correct me if I amwrong....

To heat up 1 liter of water by 1c, it takes 4180J of heat (at room temperature). 1J = 1w/s.

41,840 watts will heat 10 liters up by 1C every second.
20,920 watts will heat 10 liters up by 1C every 2 seconds.
10,460 watts will heat 10 liters up by 1C every 4 seconds.

You computer ......(max) 200W ~ would heat 10 l up by 1c with 209s.
Starting from 14c up to 60c, it would take 2h 40 minutes in perfect condition.
My point is, it takes hell of a lot of time to heat up 10l of water by 24/7 computer (and if the tank is not insulated, there will be a "leak" and that leak will increase according to the difference between the room and the tank temperature - in other words, your computer will heat up your toilet, if you do not use it :) Central heating isn't free of carge, I guess)


Actually, I just wanted to let you know: subscribed and waiting for some test results :up:

60°C.... ouch you inted to have quite a hot loop there.
With 35°C watter temp my Ci7 already reaches into the 70°C region core temp wise. I consider a Water temp of 40°C the absolute max.
200W is quite low for low for a WC loop lets say 350W if you put a midrange gfx into the loop.

Formula for heat quantity: Q=c(p)*m*ΔT -> Q=4,2kJ/kgK*10kg*26K=1092kJ=1092kWs
Formula for time to heat up the water: Q=P*t ->t=Q/P=1092kWs/0.35kW=3120s=52min.

Means you would have to flush your toilte ~28times a day, and wasting 280l per day.
If you would only allow 35°C like my WC you would need to flush your toilet every 42min or 34 times a day and wasting 340l water. :eek:

Also toilet tank dont offer that much space to work with, since one half will be blocked by the floater. You might be able to use one half of the toiet tank so approx. 15cmx20cmx35cm.

[eth0s]

If I would put wasting of water on a one side of the balance and what i'm doing for living on the other side believe me - I could waste thousands of litres/day and still live with it.

Moral aspect is not an issue. Not in here (and please, don't you, US guys try to teach me about saving water, don't be hypocrites... and yes, i'm generalizing)

"Moral aspect is not an issue": here is exactly what is wrong with some of the more dangerous members of our human race, and why they are eventually going to kill us off. Anyone who believes that it is okay to sacrifice one's moral principles in order to make a profit is a fool. Anyone who believes it is okay to waste water to cool his computer is a monumental jackass. I guess I will never understand the impulse to do the wrong thing, just because it seems easier, cheaper or more half-assed, especially when you know it is wrong. This myopic selfishness never ceases to amaze me: this is YOUR planet too, you live here with the rest of us, once the water is gone, you will die too, don't you get it? Morality and ethics are not something you chuck aside at the first bump in the road, they are what help you get through the difficult things, by showing you the right path. But I know this message will be lost on some of you. Doing the right thing is sometimes hard or expensive, but sometimes it just takes a little time, effort and forethought, and it is always worth the extra effort in the end. I just wish you could see that before it's too late. And I know I sound like a preachy, do-gooding, morality cop, but ethics is part of what I do for a living, and I can't turn it off.

[dengyong]

"Moral aspect is not an issue": here is exactly what is wrong with some of the more dangerous members of our human race, and why they are eventually going to kill us off. Anyone who believes that it is okay to sacrifice one's moral principles in order to make a profit is a fool. Anyone who believes it is okay to waste water to cool his computer is a monumental jackass. I guess I will never understand the impulse to do the wrong thing, just because it seems easier, cheaper or more half-assed, especially when you know it is wrong. This myopic selfishness never ceases to amaze me: this is YOUR planet too, you live here with the rest of us, once the water is gone, you will die too, don't you get it? Morality and ethics are not something you chuck aside at the first bump in the road, they are what help you get through the difficult things, by showing you the right path. But I know this message will be lost on some of you. Doing the right thing is sometimes hard or expensive, but sometimes it just takes a little time, effort and forethought, and it is always worth the extra effort in the end. I just wish you could see that before it's too late. And I know I sound like a preachy, do-gooding, morality cop, but ethics is part of what I do for a living, and I can't turn it off.

While we're on the monumental jackass topic....please explain to us how the water will be wasted ?......I'm betting you can't.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=285&pictureid=731

[Hornet331]

^
as if would be so easy as this basic cycle shows...

[CmB]

While we're on the monumental jackass topic....please explain to us how the water will be wasted ?......I'm betting you can't.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=285&pictureid=731

I'm not gonna run on about the morals but I think the issue is potable water and the resources used to create it. You wouldn't drink out of Lake Erie or New York Harbour would ya?:down: Or drink salt water, it'll outright kill ya iirc.

[maxgull]

if water was free here, and i was an unethical(?) earth destroyer, i would run a garden hose to my cpu waterblock, and the outlet into the yard.
i am an unethical earth destroyer, because i unnecessarily run a 1kw power supply, but water isnt free, so no garden hose to the water block.
as for the radiator in the toilet tank, i think that is a great idea.

[dengyong]

I'm not gonna run on about the morals but I think the issue is potable water and the resources used to create it. You wouldn't drink out of Lake Erie or New York Harbour would ya?:down: Or drink salt water, it'll outright kill ya iirc.

Takes very little resources to create it, and it ain't saltwater after it evaporates and comes back down.

My point was, the same water has been here for hundreds of millions of years and it ain't going nowhere.

[CmB]

Takes very little resources to create it, and it ain't saltwater after it evaporates and comes back down.

My point was, the same water has been here for hundreds of millions of years and it ain't going nowhere.

Your absolutely right. I was just saying for some places and peoples they don't even those little resources. I actually agree with you. I was stupidly trying to salvage that bloke's post.

[astrodanco]

This has been a fruitful discussion.

In my home the hot water pipes have a long way to run to reach some of the faucets. The water in the hot water pipes can get very cold and require the water to be run a long time before it gets hot. Adding insulation on the pipes helped some, but not much. I could actually use my computer to warm the water in the pipes instead of using one of those horrible recirculation pump and valve kits. I know I can't get the water to be HOT, but at least I can keep it from being so cold.

I'm off to order a small heat exchanger on Ebay...

[[XC] Lead Head]

Unethical and immoral is having any PC more then 1GHz. Waste of electricity when 70% of the time your computer is sitting idle, or poking around the web.

I believe the toilets storage tank will be enough of a reservoir and a "radiator" to keep temperatures under control. The odds of the computer being at full TDP maxing cpu and gpu load for more then an hour straight is extremely unlikely. When you figure in the heat dissipation properties of the ceramic, and the heat that will be dissipated by the fairly long tubing run, and the occasional flush the toilet will get, i think overheating will be a non issue

[Disposibleteen]

One thing i have not seen mentioned yet is that the flushing capacity of the toilet will be decreased with all of these components in the tank. Does it matter? Probably not for flushing #1 but the story may be different when talking about #2. Just thought i would mention it, even so i think this is a pretty sweet idea.

[Fraggle]

I cool my overclocked 8800gt with a mop bucket as reservoir and no radiator. Even when it reaches equilibrium the water is only 1-2C above ambient and I can just dump some ice in there any time, works great :up:

edit: It`s worth adding that I have radiators and still haven`t bothered as it works so well as is.

[ggdh]

Just to remind that:

it could be set up as additional cooling loop for the existing "ordinary" WC system.

Don't get overexcited eth0s.

[ggdh]

I went to get some copper knees (~15 x 1,30euro) and instead i've found soft copper pipe :D got some Y-shape junctions as well. I should have some tubing on Tue/Wed and on the weekend if I will have spare time will make it working.

[ggdh]

Couldn't wait and made some progress:

1. Randomly coiled copper pipe straight from the DIY.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_40L7h_SFpEw/SpHE9Gy3r-I/AAAAAAAAExw/LhfLeBgG50c/s800/IMGP8113.JPG

2. After 1 hour of heating + bending I had the exchanger "ready". Looked odd, but could fit the tank quite well. Than I've checked how it works with all parts inside (flusher, coils, floating plastic ball that is cutting the water off when it reaches some certain level). Some tuning and it was running smooth.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_40L7h_SFpEw/SpHFGeFGgvI/AAAAAAAAEyM/yi2920mZhqM/s800/IMGP8115.JPG

BUT. I realized that this floating ball doesn't need to move in a whole range (up-down) - it is doing what it suppose to do only at the top 3cm. I could fill the empty space below the ball with copper coil! First try:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_40L7h_SFpEw/SpHGYVLBRPI/AAAAAAAAEys/wHA_ArJHzGA/s800/IMGP8118.JPG

3. Even with blow torch it is difficult to avoid kinking (lack of experience). But some creative thinking and I ended up with this:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_40L7h_SFpEw/SpHG3Uge_OI/AAAAAAAAEy0/znsT4tDMLB0/s800/IMGP8119.JPG
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_40L7h_SFpEw/SpHHI0wr4BI/AAAAAAAAEy8/cdEFwrk6_40/s800/IMGP8121.JPG
Fits perfectly :up:

4. Now it was obvious that exchanger ver.1 was crap. Heaving nice coil I had to find a way to connect it with the rest of goodies. Yeah, clear tube 10mm ID would do the job and again - improvement! Why the hell I would have to wast my time to bend new exchanger already prepared for existing coil? I did some calculations and exchanger rev.1 had 1.8m length of pipes that would exchange the heat with water. New idea involved straight pipes connected with elastic tube - overall packaging of tubes per surface is much better. I will have at least 1.8m of straight copper + coil (~2m?).
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_40L7h_SFpEw/SpHFiZK8SUI/AAAAAAAAEyU/ZDb4_m5EBiM/s800/IMGP8116.JPG

More to come.
Peace.

[dengyong]

3. Even with blow torch it is difficult to avoid kinking (lack of experience).
More to come.
Peace.

http://diydata.com/techniques/plumbing/bending.php

[CyberDruid]

lol

What I keep thinking is Dry Ice! That would be the ticket...just shovel some DICE into the flush and Bench away. I need to see a picture of that.

[ggdh]

Thanks, dengyong, i'll keep it in mind. It's a pity that i have no access to any of mentioned tools.

CyberDruid :yepp:

[dengyong]

Thanks, dengyong, i'll keep it in mind. It's a pity that i have no access to any of mentioned tools.

CyberDruid :yepp:

It's fairly easy to wrap soft copper tubing around something solid like a section of pvc pipe.
Keep your bends above a 50mm radius without tools.