I have an IDEAR

[CmB]

:eek:Oh noes, Chris has an idear...well, a lengthy telephone conversation with Dave actually was my unwitting partner-in-crime serving as inspiration for the idea. Yes, you should be scared. If you are faint of heart, please, read no further.

Dave and I were discussing WCG and things and we were discussing our hope for breakthroughs on the various projects, especially cancer; when something hit me. We can recruit all we want but what about the members we lose becasue they had to sell off their rigs or cease crunching because the electric bill was too high?

I propose that some sort of tax incentive be granted to those who donate cpu time. Why not? You can measure how much work is done and calculate the draw of the rig, why can't we write off cpu cycles just like you can clothes at goodwill? I only expect energy prices to increase which should have a very negative impact on the DC community. Surely, IBM, WCG, Stanford and the rest have some kind of gov't pull?

Secondly, I think it would be interesting to explore the idea of creating a nonprofit so we can write off our PC purchases that we use for WCG or any DC project. I'm not a lawyer nor do I understand the implications and diffculties of such a venture but I think it's at least worth discussing.

The simple goal of these ideas is to create discussion on how to make crunching easier so we can keep up the work or add more work. I think its time for a massive final push as Dave thinks the researcher s are close and I hoipe he's right. If he's wrong don't tell me:cool:

Let me know what you guys and gals think. Maybe its a pipedream but Who Dares Wins

[Bgriffs]

Now that is a great idear! I know I'd be putting some more stuff to work but I can't afford the power to do the job. I mean, we are helping to do the research that is so desperately needed for a good cause. Why not find a way for us to get a little recognition/help in doing so? As long as you put some kind of verification into it to show that we are using the funds toward the intended uses than I don't see why it couldn't work. :up:

What kind of work needs to get done to make something like this happen?

[road-runner]

We where talking about this at the local hangout the other evening that there has to be a way to do this, one of the older more knowledgeable gentlemen there was supposed to check on it for me but I have not heard anything. They were talking about some kind of non profit status. I wish I knew how exactly. :shrug:

[CmB]

I'm pretty sure we should circulate an e-mail to all DC volunteers. There is strength in numbers, especially with petitions. I/we/somebody should contact the DC heads at Stanford, WCG etc. and see if they jump aboard and lend support and resources. As far a snon=profit that would mean getting a lawyer for incorporation and probabaly an accountant too.

I would focus on the tax break first. Why? Becasue when you drive around for work you can claim mileage expense. The IRS decides what you get per mile and a sum results that is a writeoff. The metrics are all ready there for verification, the utilities are regulated somewhat in what they can charge per kWh, no? I do hope others chime in and together we can something rolling.

This isn't just for WCG, this can hopefulkly be extended to all worthy DC projects pending gov't approval.

EDIT: The nonprofit status will be tricky as hell do to non-profit status which is treated like a c-corp but not taxed and some other perks/designations. The problem is we all own our own stuff and we should retain ownership. Maybe a sort of lend lease for cpu time could resolve that issue. Wish I had a law degree lol

[sierra_bound]

Non-profit status just exempts that organization from having to pay federal income taxes and in some cases state and property taxes. It doesn't mean it can write off or deduct any and every expense. People donating money to a non-profit can qualify for tax deductions. But the deductions have to be verifiable. The biggest problem with electricity usage is proving to the government that X-amount went to crunching. Same is true for computer hardware. How is the government to know if a machine is used exclusively for crunching? Many of the research organizations involved in DC have non-profit status.

[CmB]

Non-profit status just exempts that organization from having to pay federal income taxes and in some cases state and property taxes. It doesn't mean it can write off or deduct any and every expense. People donating money to a non-profit can qualify for tax deductions. But the deductions have to be verifiable. The biggest problem with electricity usage is proving to the government that X-amount went to crunching. Same is true for computer hardware. How is the government to know if a machine is used exclusively for crunching? Many of the research organizations involved in DC have non-profit status.

Thank you for clarifying. I knew but am bloody tired and not thinking well. You're right about the validation of the electricity used for crunching but I'm sure someone brighter than I am will figure it out. Maybe a a penny a WU or some IRS given amount. that way you just hav eto validate your work and there plenty of reporting on results right? And yeah, I'm only thinking in terms of the US, I have no clue what to do about other countries.

[Machinus]

If an organization like this were ever created, I can guarantee you that I would form a local chapter and get people involved. There would be components of both computer learning and cancer education that would draw in people.

However, the REAL benefit would be the number of enthusiasts who already build and overclock machines who aren't crunching. They already have the investment and the expertise to do this. If there were a tax incentive, I am certain there would be an explosion on cpu hours due to these people putting their computers to good use. They would be able to justify and support doing much more extensive projects in a hobby they already love! You would see people getting their machines out of the closet, setting them up, and plugging them into the grid.

I hope sometimes like this can happen.

[road-runner]

Do the have electrical sub meters that I could put in for my cruncher room or would that even work?

[sierra_bound]

The biggest problem is proving your computers and electricity are being used exclusively or mostly for DC. As you can imagine, the possibility of abuse is high. The guy who does my taxes says home office deductions, in particular, send up giant red flags at the IRS.

[road-runner]

The biggest problem is proving your computers and electricity are being used exclusively or mostly for DC. As you can imagine, the possibility of abuse is high. The guy who does my taxes says home office deductions, in particular, send up giant red flags at the IRS.

Yea I bet they do send up red flags, hell what doesn't now a days if you fart a flag goes up...

[sierra_bound]

Folding@home has non-profit status because of its affiliation with Stanford. I may be wrong but I don't think WCG is a non-profit. As I mentioned earlier, the research projects are usually non-profit. And I'm sure IBM gets a big fat tax deduction for providing the servers.

[Movieman]

As much as I would love this idea to work I don't think it will.
I think the way for us is to keep our eyes open for someone or a foundation that would offer help in cutting the electrical costs by perhaps sponsoring all or a percentage of the costs of installin solar power.
my normal house costs for electric in the summer WITHOUT the crunchers is app $150.00/month.
With the crunchers it's up near $360.00/month..
That's $210.00/month in summer and app $160.00 in winter..Cut that cost and I could afford to assemble a new top machine every year just on the savings..

[CmB]

True, I all ways thought it was a pipe dream. But my hope is discussion and propagation of the issue will lead to a good solution. I mean don't we even have a clean energy project for the enviromental folks. Let's hit up the Sierra Club lol

[Gamekiller]

I've seen it talked about a lot on the WCG forums. I like the idea it just seems out of reach.

http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/forums/wcg/viewthread?thread=26182

[perkam]

Frankly, irrespective of what WCG says, if people can make their refrigerators tax deductible because they work at home ( :rolleyes: ), there SHOULD be a way to do this.

Various loopholes exist for this. For example, imagine leasing/donating your computers to a library or a charity such as AA to use and all the while its running WCG on it. Then, not only can you claim electricity charges, you can claim the entire computer as tax deductible.

It could be a non-profit that leases out or donates computers to other non-profits. This is just one example of a workaround though.

Perkam

[sierra_bound]

I seriously doubt you can deduct the cost of a refrigerator as a home office expense. Of course, you could try and probably get audited. I believe tax credits are still available for buying energy-efficient refrigerators. But you can't deduct the entire cost. I suppose if you make Jell-O for a living, you can deduct part of the cost of storing it in the frig.:)

Most of the energy-related tax breaks are for conserving energy, not consuming it.

In order to qualify for home office deductions, your house has to be the principal place where you do business. If you do some work at home, but the majority of it at a regular office, then you probably won't get a tax break.

Also, I just wanted to explain that there is a difference between a tax credit and a tax deduction. A tax credit is used to help reduce the cost of what you paid for an item. Think of it as a government rebate. A tax deduction, on the other hand, is applied to your adjusted gross income. In some cases, it may put you in a lower tax bracket. Tax credits are generally more useful.

[Movieman]

I've been thinking here since I posted and just for the hell of it I'm going to write the Gates foundation this week, explain what we do, link to the WCG program and to the team page, explain about the electrical cost and how it is a killer and ask if they would be interested in making a one time donation to some of the people here with big farms so that they could install grid tied solar systems to help cut the costs..

Insert Sierra's sig here..;)

[Gamekiller]

Man how I wish I could get a donated solar array. Too bad I can't be classified as a big farm owner, but it's well deserved for those who are! :up: I could probably afford to get some big rigs going if I had a solar array. Actually, we looked into it but it would cost too much out here in TN but my house is perfect for it.... tons of sun.

[Movieman]

last time I checked, summer of 08, a grid tied solar system that would generate 3000KH/Month in NH was app $80K for parts..
So maybe ask them for $4 million to purchase solar systems for the top 40 daily producers on the team??
As a one time investment it's not a bad business decision as those systems would work at top efficiency for 10 years+ and still be effective up to 20+ years..

[Gamekiller]

*Goes to check my position in the daily producers list....*

LOL, I shoulda known. I've been running rigs for years but not enough rigs to be in the top 40 daily. Well I check using points generated yesterday at free-dc... I wish I could sort by RAC. #87 in points yesterday. ='[

[Movieman]

*Goes to check my position in the daily producers list....*

LOL, I shoulda known. I've been running rigs for years but not enough rigs to be in the top 40 daily. Well I check using points generated yesterday at free-dc... I wish I could sort by RAC. #87 in points yesterday. ='[

ok, swe'll send you down 1-2 panels and a couple D batterys for storage..:sofa:
Yea, I'm just having fun with you..;)
What I'm really thinking on is the guys like Sierra, Shootstraight,123bob,serlv, folks like that in hot climates with large farms..

[Gamekiller]

lol! Dave I might be compelled to hunt you down if you weren't such a nice guy. :rofl:

Yeah of course, I understand! They have a huge electric bill and like I said before they deserve something like donated solar panels! :D

Btw, I accept the offer of 1-2 solar panels and don't forget the D batteries!! :p:

[Movieman]

lol! Dave I might be compelled to hunt you down if you weren't such a nice guy. :rofl:

Yeah of course, I understand! They have a huge electric bill and like I said before they deserve something like donated solar panels! :D

Btw, I accept the offer of 1-2 solar panels and don't forget the D batteries!! :p:

I like a guy with a good sense of humor!:up:

[Sparky]

I've been reading about those grid-tie solar systems. I could probably put one together for "only" a few grand that would support the most/all of the cruncher load but the issue is the initial cost of that "few grand." It wouldn't be nearly $80k for parts, prices are better now than they used to be. Still, I need to do more research on it.

[mreuter80]

Forget about solar ... this is to expensive. I'd rather look into Windenergy. I recently read about a new wind turbine which is small enough to be used in the city or town, runs on low wind speeds, absolutely quiet and prices may drop quickly when it hits the market (I hope this is soon in the US).
Here is a link to the company: http://www.quietrevolution.co.uk/qr5.htm
I'm definitely waiting for this one - not only because of crunching ...

[Chumbucket843]

As much as I would love this idea to work I don't think it will.
I think the way for us is to keep our eyes open for someone or a foundation that would offer help in cutting the electrical costs by perhaps sponsoring all or a percentage of the costs of installin solar power.
my normal house costs for electric in the summer WITHOUT the crunchers is app $150.00/month.
With the crunchers it's up near $360.00/month..
That's $210.00/month in summer and app $160.00 in winter..Cut that cost and I could afford to assemble a new top machine every year just on the savings..

solar is ridiculously expensive:http://sharpusa.cleanpowerestimator.com/sharpusa.htm
i think it would be cool if our research discovered a drug and crunchers got some kind of company share or profits.

[Movieman]

solar is ridiculously expensive:http://sharpusa.cleanpowerestimator.com/sharpusa.htm
i think it would be cool if our research discovered a drug and crunchers got some kind of company share or profits.

I know it's expensive, thats why I want someone else to pay for it!:rofl:

[[XC] leviathan18]

I know it's expensive, thats why I want someone else to pay for it!:rofl:

yeah but with the wind link you can get more people with the same money :p:

glad i pay peanuts for electricity

[Gamekiller]

How much energy does wind power make compared to solar in general? I know it depends on the wind speed.

[CmB]

I know it's expensive, thats why I want someone else to pay for it!:rofl:

That's the whole point of this thread:rofl:

[perkam]

In Ontario, Canada, you can now buy Solar panels and sell unused energy back to the Hydro company here for a profit.

Dunno if this is the case anywhere else.

Perkam

[Gamekiller]

In Ontario, Canada, you can now buy Solar panels and sell unused energy back to the Hydro company here for a profit.

Dunno if this is the case anywhere else.

Perkam

It's the case in most areas as far as I know. I think in the US there's a law that makes them have to buy up to a certain amount but I'm not for sure.

[Mr_Slinky]

Forget about solar ... this is to expensive. I'd rather look into Windenergy. I recently read about a new wind turbine which is small enough to be used in the city or town, runs on low wind speeds, absolutely quiet and prices may drop quickly when it hits the market (I hope this is soon in the US).
Here is a link to the company: http://www.quietrevolution.co.uk/qr5.htm
I'm definitely waiting for this one - not only because of crunching ...

I am not sure on most states but here in Wisconsin you would need to file a permit with the DNR(Department of Natural Resources) and that have to see how it will affect all the wildlife and perform an extensive study, takes about 1-2 years to have them do that and then when you get the go ahead from the DNR then you have to hold town meetings on the proposed location. From what I have seen everyone loves the idea but they don't want it close to them, the not in my backyard. There is a wind farm down by where my grandma is and they had started this back in the 90's and took almost 5 years to get the ok from the DNR the town meetings for the surrounding areas were fun to attend as well lots of people up in arms because its going to tip over and kill all the birds when their migrating. all that had to be settled before the construction could start. But it has become easier to add to them and since the first one is environmentally friendly and has been there for 10+ years, I believe its sustainable.

Since wind cost much more then solar and you don't have to check with your local municipalities its therefore easier, in my simple little mind.

[Duh]

How much energy does wind power make compared to solar in general? I know it depends on the wind speed.

dont know much but: how much space on the roof you are planning to use the power of the solar panels, if there are many efficiency differences between models ... what I ve read is that wind energy is more buck-wise

I have a nice plan but the meds are kicking in and dont feel like doing a long post at this moment..
I like the idea.. I love you guys :up:

[Gamekiller]

I've been planning to build a wind turbine from scratch but it would only do DC power which could be inverted to AC but only for smaller items.

Something I though of: Solar panels might reflex the heat off of your roof and thus reducing indoor cooling needs?

[jspace]

They don't have to be DC, and in fact I think it is supposed to be more efficient to use AC. It's just more work to build an alternator than to use a DC motor.

[mreuter80]

I am not sure on most states but here in Wisconsin you would need to file a permit with the DNR(Department of Natural Resources) and that have to see how it will affect all the wildlife and perform an extensive study, takes about 1-2 years to have them do that and then when you get the go ahead from the DNR then you have to hold town meetings on the proposed location. From what I have seen everyone loves the idea but they don't want it close to them, the not in my backyard. There is a wind farm down by where my grandma is and they had started this back in the 90's and took almost 5 years to get the ok from the DNR the town meetings for the surrounding areas were fun to attend as well lots of people up in arms because its going to tip over and kill all the birds when their migrating. all that had to be settled before the construction could start. But it has become easier to add to them and since the first one is environmentally friendly and has been there for 10+ years, I believe its sustainable.

Since wind cost much more then solar and you don't have to check with your local municipalities its therefore easier, in my simple little mind.

Yes, you are right, regular wind turbines might have an impact on wild life. But keep in mind the turbine I referenced is made for towns, can have a cage around it, so no bird could actually fly into it and get killed. It is quiet and it diameter is very small compared to the regular windmills.
Well, as long it is not available in the US I don't need to think to much about it. :rolleyes:

[Duh]

I thought of having a closed/locked community DC ( data center) so we can prove that we are not using it for other purpose.. everything would be managed via remote access and if hardware smashed we got f... it would be cool each to have his own comp in the DC :P

[jcool]

Wind sucks.. I have been looking to get a solar panel for my parent's house, something that would generate around 3kw/h costs like 10000€ with governmental aids, not that bad really. Unfortunately the roof area is too small, the houses' positioning is less than ideal to mount a larger solar array...

[Jaco]

Wind sucks..

no , it blows :p::rofl:

[jcool]

Yeah right. :ROTF:

[Duh]

Wind sucks.. I have been looking to get a solar panel for my parent's house, something that would generate around 3kw/h costs like 10000€ with governmental aids, not that bad really. Unfortunately the roof area is too small, the houses' positioning is less than ideal to mount a larger solar array...

down here the same stuff would actually cost the same but with one or two more zeros (ballparking) :shakes:

edit: after reading this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics): I understand more stuff about solar energy ( and why in germany is so damn cheap to have solar energy :D)

[Otis11]

down here the same stuff would actually cost the same but with one or two more zeros (ballparking) :shakes:

edit: after reading this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics): I understand more stuff about solar energy ( and why in germany is so damn cheap to have solar energy :D)

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they substudize it like the US is starting to do. (30% tax exemption on up to $5000 per year for things that make your house more efficent - wonder if crunchers count...? :rofl:)

But now that I'm thinking about it... We might be able to pull a lesson from Naja and his Geo loop and be able to count it for tax credit, or set it up to where our computers heat our house in the winter and claim $1500 off of our taxes if we spend the $5000 on computers and radiators... Worth looking into anyone? :up:

[mreuter80]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they substudize it like the US is starting to do. (30% tax exemption on up to $5000 per year for things that make your house more efficent - wonder if crunchers count...? :rofl:)

But now that I'm thinking about it... We might be able to pull a lesson from Naja and his Geo loop and be able to count it for tax credit, or set it up to where our computers heat our house in the winter and claim $1500 off of our taxes if we spend the $5000 on computers and radiators... Worth looking into anyone? :up:

Yep ... and in Germany the energy giants must take your electricity for a fixed price (which is of course higher than you would actually be able to produce from Solar) - that makes it so tempting in Germany. Here in the US I haven't seen the "fixed" price :shrug:

[Aerou]

I would very much welcome any sort of electricity fund, because the frackin bill prevented me from building another cruncher

[CmB]

First off sorry for diggin up an old thread but i had another idear and thought I might just continue this thread rather than clutter up with a new one lol. Here's what it is:

I saw this Joulemeter from Microsoft (http://it-trib.com/content/microsoft-joulemeter-measures-vm-server-client-and-software-energy-usage) and it hit that we might use the software electricity meter capability to prove what electricity we used for what DC program. Maybe it's not the answer but maybe it's a start in the right direction? I would like to see something happen along these lines if we can...if not, I believe its still worth crunching, folding etc. anyway lol. But if we can write off mileage for business [usually you just state what miles you drove for work right?] why can't we figure out a way to write off electricity usage?

[fallwind]

WCG is not a registered charity so that pretty much shoots down any chance from getting a tax break out of crunching.

[CmB]

well that stinks. Looks like I have to make a few political phone calls and see if WCg is willing to change this. Long shot but why not? I've wasted my time on worse things lol

[aythrea]

I kinda like the idea of Wind Energy. But I'm not sold on one specific type at any time. A combination of Wind and Solar sounds like a good idea to me. Especially since I live in OK. A handful of solar panels, and a few wind turbines out to produce quite a bit. I'm mostly concerned about hail shattering the solar panels.

[naokaji]

Forget about solar ... this is to expensive.

Yes it is expensive, but some of the bigger Companies could easily fit it into their marketing budget and not only claim they support the fight against Cancer but on top of that use it as part of their Green Marketing strategy they all keep talking about.