Should I go with 4 10's or 1 18" sub?

[STEvil]

Either 4 Kicker 10" L7's or a single MA Audio HardKore 18".

Going into a 1996 Chevy 2500 extended cab and will be powered by a Lanzar Opti2000D.

Decisions decisions :D

[[XC] Lead Head]

Do you want a A LOT of bass in the mid-bass range, say 30-40Hz and up? Then go with the 10"

If you want some real deep bone shaking lows, say, sub 20Hz or so, then go for the 18".

Optimally for a well balanced system, you would probably want both an 18" and a 10" to compliment your mids and highs, but judging by the fact you said 4 10" subs, you probably aren't exactly looking for a well balanced system;)

[STEvil]

Lead Head;3899002']Do you want a A LOT of bass in the mid-bass range, say 30-40Hz and up? Then go with the 10"

If you want some real deep bone shaking lows, say, sub 20Hz or so, then go for the 18".

Optimally for a well balanced system, you would probably want both an 18" and a 10" to compliment your mids and highs, but judging by the fact you said 4 10" subs, you probably aren't exactly looking for a well balanced system;)

A sub is a sub and cone area/driver mass (leaving box out of the equation to keep things simple...) dictate what frequency response will be, not the physical size of the sub.

The 4 L7's will have more cone area (slightly more given they are square rather than round) and cone mass than the 18 as well as more motor surface area (voice coil surface area/cone mass ratio will probably end up near the same). They should be able to hit a bit higher but will also hit just as low as the 18 (leaving box design out of the equation).

My actual intention is to maximize cone area to produce the lowest frequency reproduction I can achieve while maintaining passenger space (ie: not removing rear seat entirely). At average to moderate listening volumes the 10's should sound as good as any single sub but will not run out of output as fast should I choose to go louder :)

The only problem with the 10's is i'd need to find another pair lol :/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7R16ryu6vc

[trance565]

a 10 2 12's and a 15

[STEvil]

a 10 2 12's and a 15

Funnily enough I was talking to someone a couple weeks ago that was doing that in a nearly identical vehicle.

I just laughed at him.

[Formann]

4 L7´s ? I hope you got some serious amps, proper batteries and caps.

You really need a lot of juice to handle 4 L7´s. I tried 2 L7´s, and holy crap it was more than enough.
In my experience the speakers are not so important. Whats important is beeing able to provide enough power.

[trance565]

why would you laugh?

10's get your 20-1000hz range, 12's your 20-150, and your 15's would hit your 20-150's with the lowers hitting even harder, although if you have a proper 12, the 15 wouldnt be needed

[STEvil]

4 L7´s ? I hope you got some serious amps, proper batteries and caps.

You really need a lot of juice to handle 4 L7´s. I tried 2 L7´s, and holy crap it was more than enough.
In my experience the speakers are not so important. Whats important is beeing able to provide enough power.

Lanzar Opti2000D. 2KW RMS @ 0.5 ohms. I used to run a pair of L7's from a Clarion DPX1000.1, worked awesome.


why would you laugh?

10's get your 20-1000hz range, 12's your 20-150, and your 15's would hit your 20-150's with the lowers hitting even harder, although if you have a proper 12, the 15 wouldnt be needed

Because a decent driver would hit all of those frequencies well enough that you dont need to have a multitude of.. crap. Besides that I dont like hearing voices through the subwoofer (1000hz? are you nuts?). Subwoofers are for low frequency extension, too many people forget that and thats why there are so many poorly tuned systems out there..

[RoadconeTuning]

assuming this is for SPL competitions... whichever has highest sensativity and cone area and xmax...

i've got a pair of 10's in my mustang and it doesnt extend low enough for my likings, either 2 12's for a single 15 would have been better, then again im used to 4-8" woofers and a 12" sub w/ my home stereo...

[trance565]

Lanzar Opti2000D. 2KW RMS @ 0.5 ohms. I used to run a pair of L7's from a Clarion DPX1000.1, worked awesome.



Because a decent driver would hit all of those frequencies well enough that you dont need to have a multitude of.. crap. Besides that I dont like hearing voices through the subwoofer (1000hz? are you nuts?). Subwoofers are for low frequency extension, too many people forget that and thats why there are so many poorly tuned systems out there..

so you put a 300hz cross over on it

try this one :)

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_10647_Pioneer+Premier+TS-W8102SPL.html

20 lb of magnet mmmm

[STEvil]

assuming this is for SPL competitions... whichever has highest sensativity and cone area and xmax...

i've got a pair of 10's in my mustang and it doesnt extend low enough for my likings, either 2 12's for a single 15 would have been better, then again im used to 4-8" woofers and a 12" sub w/ my home stereo...

Not for SPL really, just want to extend into sub-sonic frequencies as much as possible :D


so you put a 300hz cross over on it

try this one :)

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_10647_Pioneer+Premier+TS-W8102SPL.html

20 lb of magnet mmmm

No, i'll just stay away from tuning the subs and system that high to begin with.

No thanks, already have an 18" that will make that one cry :)

http://www.shopping.com/xPF-Ma-Audio-Kore-18

[trance565]

lol, i've got a total of ... about 2500 watts max from my amps, pulling like ~100 amps, and my alternator cant keep up, a 10k watt amp would kill me lol. and i would have that sub going all the way to 500hz like it's supposed to, 5.25inch woofers suck for lows :( damn lexus

[STEvil]

Gonna run the 18 for now but i'm building the box with a removable plate where the sub(s) can be installed. Really tight fit back there to get 5 cubic feet of box space and still be able to fit 2 passengers...

[trance565]

that's alot of box

[Splave]

that's alot of box

thats what he said

[[XC] 2long4u]

I'd run the 4-10's. Personally I like 2- 12's. I would never get an 18.

[slim142]

I think 18s take out too much space. Maybe 2 15s? Have you considered that? 2 CVXs 12"s would pound really hard and save you some space.

[STEvil]

I think 18s take out too much space. Maybe 2 15s? Have you considered that? 2 CVXs 12"s would pound really hard and save you some space.

CVX's suck. Would pick up Type R's or Premiers way before I touched one of those. RE's would be my top pick actually. Guy who designs their stuff used to work for RF.

Either way a single 18 still uses less space (if you want it to) than a pair of 15's, costs less, and has near the same output.

[slim142]

CVX's suck. Would pick up Type R's or Premiers way before I touched one of those. RE's would be my top pick actually. Guy who designs their stuff used to work for RF.

Either way a single 18 still uses less space (if you want it to) than a pair of 15's, costs less, and has near the same output.

Can I ask why do CVXs suck? Arent type Rs just 500 watts? and why premiers? What is special about them two that beats the CVX?

I have no idea what you mean by RE's. Sorry if I sound noob, still learning a lot of this sub brands :shrug:

[jas420221]

If you have a 10 with a frequency response of 30Hz+, putting 3 more wont make its response go lower as they are rated. If you want sub sonic, find one that will do below 20Hz.

[trance565]

Can I ask why do CVXs suck? Arent type Rs just 500 watts? and why premiers? What is special about them two that beats the CVX?

I have no idea what you mean by RE's. Sorry if I sound noob, still learning a lot of this sub brands :shrug:

sound quality.

look at the pictures of the cvx, and look at the pics of the premiers, just looking at them you can tell which one will sound better. max wattage doesn't really matter either, the RMS is what's important.

[slim142]

sound quality.

look at the pictures of the cvx, and look at the pics of the premiers, just looking at them you can tell which one will sound better. max wattage doesn't really matter either, the RMS is what's important.

Well, all kickers have those "designs", dont know how effective OR ineffective the designs are, but even with square subs, they still hit hard or else they wouldnt have such a good reputation right?

Now, I dont know about other people, but when I talk about wattage, I always talk about the RMS. I really hate to talk in terms of peak power cause thats just retarded no need to explain.

Now, I had a Type R which sounded good but couldnt go full potential because of the box. They are 500watts (RMS). Right now, I have a CVR which is 400watts (RMS) and it smells like burning when I put it too loud since its receiving 900watts (RMS) from my amplifier. The reason why Im leaning towards the CVX is because the CVX is basically an improved CVR (even when its the same as an L7, is still better according to some people) that works up to 750watts (RMS) and keeps the round shape to save some space (works on boxes designed for CVRs).

Now, when I play my sub loud, it sounds good, when I think about what a CVX would do in my car (350watts more power), I just wish I had the money to buy it. Besides I would get rid of that stupid burning smell.

[STEvil]

Can I ask why do CVXs suck? Arent type Rs just 500 watts? and why premiers? What is special about them two that beats the CVX?

Premiers are not much better than CVR's or CVX's but will hit "lower" than them easier due to better suspension design.


I have no idea what you mean by RE's. Sorry if I sound noob, still learning a lot of this sub brands :shrug:

Resonant Engineering. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UNlCJSDahw


If you have a 10 with a frequency response of 30Hz+, putting 3 more wont make its response go lower as they are rated. If you want sub sonic, find one that will do below 20Hz.

Displacement volume.


Well, all kickers have those "designs", dont know how effective OR ineffective the designs are, but even with square subs, they still hit hard or else they wouldnt have such a good reputation right?
What designs? The plastic support on the cone? Its just to look cool, doesnt do anything (they'd make them out of carbon fiber if they wanted to do something with them).


Now, I dont know about other people, but when I talk about wattage, I always talk about the RMS. I really hate to talk in terms of peak power cause thats just retarded no need to explain.

Now, I had a Type R which sounded good but couldnt go full potential because of the box. They are 500watts (RMS). Right now, I have a CVR which is 400watts (RMS) and it smells like burning when I put it too loud since its receiving 900watts (RMS) from my amplifier. The reason why Im leaning towards the CVX is because the CVX is basically an improved CVR (even when its the same as an L7, is still better according to some people) that works up to 750watts (RMS) and keeps the round shape to save some space (works on boxes designed for CVRs).

Now, when I play my sub loud, it sounds good, when I think about what a CVX would do in my car (350watts more power), I just wish I had the money to buy it. Besides I would get rid of that stupid burning smell.

How can a CVX be "still the same" as an L7? Square vs circle and the motor/suspension design of each is way different.

Either way your voice coils are dieing.


edit - This is what I really want. There are some good vids on youtube of these things. http://www.audiopulse.com/products/subwoofer-drivers/lms-ultra/

[slim142]

Hey Stevil

So one question before spending the cash. Would the TS-W3002D4 be better than the CVX? Besides the fact that it is 1000RMS and you are saying it hits lower notes, will it be better than the cvx?

Comparing both 12" @ 2Ohms

[STEvil]

What vehicle are you putting it in and where will the box be, and what amp will you be using? In general yes.

[slim142]

What vehicle are you putting it in and where will the box be, and what amp will you be using? In general yes.

Ford Expedition 2007 Eddie Bauer
Box is 1.25 cubic feet and will be located in the third row of seats (trunk is full for now)
Amp: Sony XM-D9001GTR (900watts RMS @ 2 ohms)

Im using stock receiver, but I will be putting a JVC soon. Not the best one, but at least better than the crap stock one.

[Lestat]

i have some old Techmaster P.E.B tracks if you are interested in seeing what your sub's can do.

stevil i will say from experience that in all honesty that if you have had those L7 10" units running before and were happy just go with them
and 18" is a subsonic woofer only and a woofer by nature not a subwoofer although,, bah never mind.

i used to run nothing but Lanzar, back before Pyramid bought them out and unless Lanzar broke off and became their own company they are still owned by pyrimid and not nearly as good of amps as they used to be.
hell i still have a brand new unused pyramid super pro 15" in the garage that i have had for like 12 years.
the coils are probablt ruined by now from moisture but some day,,,, someday i'll build the 3cu/ft box they require and hook it up and see what happens.

i used to run the original lanzar amps and subs back whent hey first came out and were the first 1/2 ohm amps back in the mid 90's when they were winning competitions left and right.

the 18 is overkill and is not going to get you your mid to high tone's you want.

the 10's now days are freakin amazing where in my day towards the end of my car audio days 12 were just starting to smoke 15's, and 12's were the in thing. back then a set of kicker 12's or orion xtreme dual voice coil in an s-10 cab thru design was not uncommon and would make bass like you couldnt imagine.

have you ever thought about doing a cab thru design and just making the box in the box of the truck weather sealed? its alot of work and you have to cut the box and cab of the truck but the results are far more than anything you can get in cab, but for the most par are pure lows.

forget the 18, you dont have enough room in the extended cab to use it properly while maintaining any sort of room for people.

stick with the 10's.

ps.

in my lanzar days i wused to run 2x 15" small enclosure units behind the seat of my 1/2 ton 78 chevy, people everywhere knew exactly who i was, and that was part of the problem if you know what i mean.
i went thru several windshield and would make people sick to their stomach without even turning them up that far.

i dont know its hard to say a pickup is so limited but has such potential for sound pressure.
ever though about doing the 2 tens for mid and high bass under the front seats or on the rear floor and then a single small enclosure 15" for your sub 20hz hits? or even a pair of 12" ?

the 4 tens is pure overkill but allows for more room, but i think you are limiting your sub 50hz responsiveness.
but i also have been out of the car audio realm for many years, it jsut got too expensive and insurance drops you after filing a couple of claims for stolen hardware...

[slim142]

Quick Question
When they say subs hit 20hz (like the CVX and the Pioneer Premier Pro), do they really hit that low? I mean, STEvil seems to have a preference over the Pioneer because it seems (according to him) that the Pioneer hits lower than the kicker, i dont know if he means lower than 20hz, or ACTUALLY 20hz (and that kicker says does but actually doesnt).

[STEvil]

Ford Expedition 2007 Eddie Bauer
Box is 1.25 cubic feet and will be located in the third row of seats (trunk is full for now)
Amp: Sony XM-D9001GTR (900watts RMS @ 2 ohms)

Im using stock receiver, but I will be putting a JVC soon. Not the best one, but at least better than the crap stock one.

That's going to sound terrible. I had a single sealed 12 on 500w RMS in my 1994 GMC Yukon (similar cab volume) for a while and I nearly blew it up trying to get anything to happen. Not to say it was a great 12 (RF Punch HE iirc) but in my Camaro when I had it, it was awesome (pointed up and angled back slightly due to "truck" style box, pointed directly at rear hatch glass!).

You need a bigger box, ported, and dont overshoot the power rating of the driver by a huge margin.


i have some old Techmaster P.E.B tracks if you are interested in seeing what your sub's can do.
I'll just toss 1812 overture at it to start with then play from there.


stevil i will say from experience that in all honesty that if you have had those L7 10" units running before and were happy just go with them
and 18" is a subsonic woofer only and a woofer by nature not a subwoofer although,, bah never mind.
Subwoofers are woofers built and intended for low frequencies. The driver I have is built for that and is not a PA speaker designed woofer.


i used to run nothing but Lanzar, back before Pyramid bought them out and unless Lanzar broke off and became their own company they are still owned by pyrimid and not nearly as good of amps as they used to be.
hell i still have a brand new unused pyramid super pro 15" in the garage that i have had for like 12 years.
the coils are probablt ruined by now from moisture but some day,,,, someday i'll build the 3cu/ft box they require and hook it up and see what happens.

i used to run the original lanzar amps and subs back whent hey first came out and were the first 1/2 ohm amps back in the mid 90's when they were winning competitions left and right.
I dont know if Pyramid still owns Lanzar, but if they do then they have no influence on the actual design or construction of the amplifers.


the 18 is overkill and is not going to get you your mid to high tone's you want.
I've only been talking low frequencies. High frequencies are meant for "regular" drivers. I dont know about you but I really hate hearing someone "talk" through a subwoofer. Besides that frequency response is a function of the design of the driver and the box.


the 10's now days are freakin amazing where in my day towards the end of my car audio days 12 were just starting to smoke 15's, and 12's were the in thing. back then a set of kicker 12's or orion xtreme dual voice coil in an s-10 cab thru design was not uncommon and would make bass like you couldnt imagine.
Remember the CV Stroker? Select the correct driver, build the correct box (as mentioned before) and you can do a lot of things easily. Some things are still very hard to do, and one of them is low frequencies, especially sub-sonic (below 30hz) frequencies with acceptable sound quality. Yes you can get long stroke 10's and 12's but are they linear? Probably not, so by the time you are reaching the output of the 12" using the 10" you are way beyond linear and have introduced massive amounts of distortion let alone probably reducing the life of the driver. Better to spend the extra $20 on the 12.


have you ever thought about doing a cab thru design and just making the box in the box of the truck weather sealed? its alot of work and you have to cut the box and cab of the truck but the results are far more than anything you can get in cab, but for the most par are pure lows.

forget the 18, you dont have enough room in the extended cab to use it properly while maintaining any sort of room for people.
I have a toolbox in the back and regularly carry quads and skidoos in the back as well as random other items. The seal will also be unacceptable as it may rupture allowing water/mud/dirt/whatever from the sub(s) or from off-road use. Blow-through is a no go. I've already worked out the box size and where to mount everything which will allow up to 8 cubic feet of box area and two passengers in the rear.


stick with the 10's.
18 is going in. Box is designed to accept multiple faceplates so I can put whatever I want in up to a 21" sub (technically I could fit a 24"..).


ps.

in my lanzar days i wused to run 2x 15" small enclosure units behind the seat of my 1/2 ton 78 chevy, people everywhere knew exactly who i was, and that was part of the problem if you know what i mean.
i went thru several windshield and would make people sick to their stomach without even turning them up that far.
My brother has a pair of 10w04 JL's on an old RF 200x2 amp (one of those ones that get hot enough to burn carpet when bridged @ 4 ohms). Does well. If my truck did not have an extended cab i'd do a blow-through or go for 4 10's probably. Bit much with such limited box area but i'd still do it :D

[/quote]i dont know its hard to say a pickup is so limited but has such potential for sound pressure.
ever though about doing the 2 tens for mid and high bass under the front seats or on the rear floor and then a single small enclosure 15" for your sub 20hz hits? or even a pair of 12" ?[/quote]
Single, small enclosure for sub 20hz? Lol man. Sub sonic requires BIG. Besides that if there is to be any driver mixing i've got a pair of 8" subs that might just fit in the doors..... just run them off a decent crossover setup on the "front" amp.


the 4 tens is pure overkill but allows for more room, but i think you are limiting your sub 50hz responsiveness.
but i also have been out of the car audio realm for many years, it jsut got too expensive and insurance drops you after filing a couple of claims for stolen hardware...
Stealth install is the way to go if you can. 10's are ok if you use 4 of them. 2 is actually not bad with good ones but they wont make the 10-20hz range well enough.


Quick Question
When they say subs hit 20hz (like the CVX and the Pioneer Premier Pro), do they really hit that low? I mean, STEvil seems to have a preference over the Pioneer because it seems (according to him) that the Pioneer hits lower than the kicker, i dont know if he means lower than 20hz, or ACTUALLY 20hz (and that kicker says does but actually doesnt).

Any driver can technically hit any frequency. The response rating is where they "peak" at producing reference volumes (not all are rated the same) in manufacturer specific box styles. What your driver an do excursion wise while staying "linear" is the true merit of what frequencies you will be more likely to attain. Some like big boxes better than others as well (big boxes are needed for low frequencies unless you get exotic in design).

[slim142]

That's going to sound terrible. I had a single sealed 12 on 500w RMS in my 1994 GMC Yukon (similar cab volume) for a while and I nearly blew it up trying to get anything to happen. Not to say it was a great 12 (RF Punch HE iirc) but in my Camaro when I had it, it was awesome (pointed up and angled back slightly due to "truck" style box, pointed directly at rear hatch glass!).

You need a bigger box, ported, and dont overshoot the power rating of the driver by a huge margin.

Will sound terrible because of the box size, type or because of the place Im going to be using it?

I forgot to mention my box is ported (vented). So I think this does make a difference for more punchy bass.
Also, now that Im checking my receipt (of the box) it says "box-112V". So now, Im believing my box is really 1.12 cubic feet, not 1.25.

The box is not below or above the requirements. But I know I cant get a bigger one because I have materials in the car that I need for work.

According to Pionner, the minium is 0.8 and maximum 1.6 cubic feet (for the TS-W30002D4 in a ported box). My box (considering the receipt) is 1.12.
It is a little below the recommended (1.25), but not by a huge difference.

Im also going to be changing the radio. An old person I was working with some time ago gave me a JVC radio since he was getting a new one. This one will have RCA outputs so I will finally get rid of High-Level Imput (at least!). So yeah, Im in the process of upgrading the system to something more decent. I will gladly hear any comments from you.

EDIT: One extra question
Does it make a difference? Pionner Premier PRO says Frequency Response "20-150 Hz" and Kicker CVX "20-500 Hz"
Im not sure how bassy are the frequencies higher than 150hz, but is it something I should keep in mind?

Also, why is kicker so much more expensive than other companies? I still cant figure out why their 150watts RMS subwoofers cost as much as 400watts RMS subwoofers from other companies and this applies to all their subs. Any ideas?

Finally, how good is Pionner in the car subwoofer market?

[STEvil]

Will sound terrible because of the box size, type or because of the place Im going to be using it?
Since its ported it wont be as bad as I thought it would have been. But really its mostly due to your cab volume (reactive air mass) to cone and box volume ratio.

[/quote]I forgot to mention my box is ported (vented). So I think this does make a difference for more punchy bass.
Also, now that Im checking my receipt (of the box) it says "box-112V". So now, Im believing my box is really 1.12 cubic feet, not 1.25.[/quote]
Sealed is better for "punchy" bass but given that your box is small its not going to matter much. Lots of people say that a big box tends to "boom" a lot more but that is usually just due to how the average user tunes the system: subs up all the way.


The box is not below or above the requirements. But I know I cant get a bigger one because I have materials in the car that I need for work.

According to Pionner, the minium is 0.8 and maximum 1.6 cubic feet (for the TS-W30002D4 in a ported box). My box (considering the receipt) is 1.12.
It is a little below the recommended (1.25), but not by a huge difference.

Im also going to be changing the radio. An old person I was working with some time ago gave me a JVC radio since he was getting a new one. This one will have RCA outputs so I will finally get rid of High-Level Imput (at least!). So yeah, Im in the process of upgrading the system to something more decent. I will gladly hear any comments from you.
Always a way to fit a bigger one! ;) Best way to do it would be a truck styled box behind the rear seat facing the rear of the vehicle. Should be able to do that with minimal use of space.


EDIT: One extra question
Does it make a difference? Pionner Premier PRO says Frequency Response "20-150 Hz" and Kicker CVX "20-500 Hz"
Im not sure how bassy are the frequencies higher than 150hz, but is it something I should keep in mind?

Also, why is kicker so much more expensive than other companies? I still cant figure out why their 150watts RMS subwoofers cost as much as 400watts RMS subwoofers from other companies and this applies to all their subs. Any ideas?

Finally, how good is Pionner in the car subwoofer market?
I usually dont pay attention to the high range out put of a subwoofer because they are meant to output low frequencies. Lots of people "compensate" for poor midrange drivers by tuning their subwoofers a bit high but that makes it sound like there are voices coming from the subwoofer when someone is talking or singing. Thats bad in my books because bass should be non-directional and the large amount of output the sub can have will overbalance against the rest of the system, let alone giving you a headache from the high resonance frequencies.

What model is the JVC? You almost might do better to visit a pawn shop and pick up something else if its a low end unit.

Kicker costs more because of the name.

Also the correct spelling is "input" ;)

[slim142]

Since its ported it wont be as bad as I thought it would have been. But really its mostly due to your cab volume (reactive air mass) to cone and box volume ratio.

Well thats my car, cant really do much there lol


Sealed is better for "punchy" bass but given that your box is small its not going to matter much. Lots of people say that a big box tends to "boom" a lot more but that is usually just due to how the average user tunes the system: subs up all the way.

Yes thats what I just read. Well, not in mind to change the box again so Ill keep that one.

Always a way to fit a bigger one! ;) Best way to do it would be a truck styled box behind the rear seat facing the rear of the vehicle. Should be able to do that with minimal use of space.

The trunk has barely space and I doubt the subwoofer would fit in there. Really tight space there, wouldnt like it to fall whenever I open the trunk.


I usually dont pay attention to the high range out put of a subwoofer because they are meant to output low frequencies. Lots of people "compensate" for poor midrange drivers by tuning their subwoofers a bit high but that makes it sound like there are voices coming from the subwoofer when someone is talking or singing. Thats bad in my books because bass should be non-directional and the large amount of output the sub can have will overbalance against the rest of the system, let alone giving you a headache from the high resonance frequencies.

What model is the JVC? You almost might do better to visit a pawn shop and pick up something else if its a low end unit.

Kicker costs more because of the name.

Also the correct spelling is "input" ;)

Well yeah, I mean I really dont want the sub to play voices or high tones so as long as it gives me the bass, I dont care if it goes 150 or all the way to 500.

The JVC, I have to look for it cause I have no idea where I left it after taking it out of my old car. Will see if its worth installing it. Im trying to avoid spending money on a receiver tho, as long as I get RCA outputs Ill be happy.

Thanks for the input about input. Keep confusing how m always goes before p in spanish :rofl:

I have decided to go for the Pionner Premier PRO, I think the jump from 400 to 1000 will be a huge one and I will finaly truly enjoy the TRUE power of my amplifier.

Thanks for the help STEVil, really appreciate it :up:

[STEvil]

NP. I'm sure the JVC will do fine, or at least until you decide to change it out for something else ;)

[slim142]

NP. I'm sure the JVC will do fine, or at least until you decide to change it out for something else ;)

Are alpines ok? I pretty much like the designs and features.

[STEvil]

Are alpines ok? I pretty much like the designs and features.

Not the best on the market but better than 80% of the average. Good choice for the average consumer ;)

[slim142]

Not the best on the market but better than 80% of the average. Good choice for the average consumer ;)

Nice to hear
What would you recommend before alpine then?

[STEvil]

You pretty much have to go high end to beat them... Some eclipse/clarion/panasonics are better but i'd build a CarPC over getting a high end deck.

[slim142]

I havent heard much about eclipse and clarion i heard was good but never really tried it. Will most probably go for the alpine which I really like. thanks man

[STEvil]

Going 10's.. found some more ;)

Really just going with them so I can do less cutting to put a proper box in lol.

[slim142]

I have a 400watt subwoofer waiting to get a 1000watt replacement. You guys talk about 2000watt amps and 5000watt subs. You make my system look like little chicken looking at a 20 feet tall dragon O_o

What amp/sub is 0.5ohms?
I found out for the first time there was such thing as 1ohm with the Solo X and now I see .5

Wow I must be still in the entry level of knowledge of subs and amps lol

[STEvil]

Not many subs go below 1 ohm but there are quite a few amps that are 1 and 0.5 ohm stable. Lanzar Opti2000D for one. Sundown probably makes a few that do.

[STEvil]

3 layers of mat and resin down so far

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/4x%20square%2010%20box1/0806091550.jpg

[STEvil]

Out into the sun for some work...

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/4x%20square%2010%20box1/0807091513.jpg

Face plate test fit (forgot to take separate pics)

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/4x%20square%2010%20box1/0807091732.jpg

Top plate test fit

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/4x%20square%2010%20box1/0807091813a.jpg

Lots of staples and a few more coats of resin and fiberglass inside and out later.....

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/4x%20square%2010%20box1/0807092301.jpg


Also installed a Pioneer deck today (@##!%!#@%!@%@% Chevy dashes..)

Things left to do:
Mount amp, mount cap bank (will see... might not), mount subs.

[dinos22]

Stevil are you sure you are really asking for advice lol
i keep reading this thread and none of your responses seem to be leading to that :p:

that's gonna be a heck of a lot of base eek

what sort of music are you into :)

[STEvil]

Stevil are you sure you are really asking for advice lol
i keep reading this thread and none of your responses seem to be leading to that :p:

that's gonna be a heck of a lot of base eek

what sort of music are you into :)

Was asking opinions not advice.

All kinds of music as long as it sounds decent and the vocalist isnt screaming unintelligibly (some days i'll let that pass though).

Here's a sample of what i'll go for when I can:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WjFq0_g93k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QP-SIW6iKY

As well as Nightwish, The Who, Nonpoint, The Doors, Nine Inch Nails, Nirvana, Rammstein, Led Zeppelin, Tool.......... etc :shrug:

[slim142]

Do you need that much bass (lol at dinos "base" :D) for rock type of music?

[STEvil]

Of course

[STEvil]

Install complete. for now.

Pics up tomorrow.

[slim142]

Dam STEvil post the pics alreadyyyyyyyyyy
I wanna see all that bass you got.

I wish I had half of that much bass lol

[STEvil]

Forgot to take a pic after putting the box with subs in. Will get one tomorrow if I get off work at a reasonable hour.

Amp installed
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/4x%20square%2010%20box1/0808091816.jpg

Amp remote stealth installed
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/4x%20square%2010%20box1/0808091818.jpg

Eh, looks cool but decided against it:
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/4x%20square%2010%20box1/0808091815.jpg

Went with this:
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/4x%20square%2010%20box1/0808092109.jpg


It hits rediculously hard for how small the box is and being sealed.

[slim142]

Do I see a Solo X in there? :eek:

Why didnt you just go for 2 subs? It does look pretty small for 4...

[STEvil]

Do I see a Solo X in there? :eek:

Why didnt you just go for 2 subs? It does look pretty small for 4...

I wish they were solo-x. Just two 2001 L7's (black ones) and 2 2005 L5's (silver ones).

Because I have 4 :D

Stage 2 will be removing the rear seat and installing a seat on each side of the box with a pillar in the center for more box volume plus a port. Should end up near 8 cubes hopefully.

[slim142]

I wish they were solo-x. Just two 2001 L7's (black ones) and 2 2005 L5's (silver ones).

Because I have 4 :D

Stage 2 will be removing the rear seat and installing a seat on each side of the box with a pillar in the center for more box volume plus a port. Should end up near 8 cubes hopefully.

That sounds killer
How long will it take for that mod to be done?
One question, why are you mixing different subs?
And I thought you said you would go for Pionners or Alpines before kicker, or is it because you had those already?

[STEvil]

Will be a while before I get to it.

Because its hard to find 2001 L7's to match what I had.

I said before CVX's or CVR's. L7's and L5's are better ;)

Box and subs in. Tweeter sitting on top of the box... need to mount those somewhere ;)

edit - yes the protection frame thing on the L7 is broken... the box fell off its stand while we were mounting the subs and it landed on the frame breaking it. No damage to anything else though so thats good.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/4x%20square%2010%20box1/0810091958.jpg

[slim142]

Will be a while before I get to it.

Because its hard to find 2001 L7's to match what I had.

I said before CVX's or CVR's. L7's and L5's are better ;)

Box and subs in. Tweeter sitting on top of the box... need to mount those somewhere ;)

edit - yes the protection frame thing on the L7 is broken... the box fell off its stand while we were mounting the subs and it landed on the frame breaking it. No damage to anything else though so thats good.

Do old kickers have something that new ones dont have or something? Sometimes I see people leaning towards the older models for some reason.

Isnt CVXs better than L7s? Even though they are "the same", I heard in a couple of forums they were better in quality I believe.

Wow man, your car is full of bass. Is it recommended to have the subs as low as possible or is it just personal taste?

[STEvil]

Newer are probably better but not a big deal really

CVR's and CVX's suck compared to L7's. L5's its a toss-up if you start getting overboard with the power (L5's will burn up easier).

As low as possible? Its that or no seat pretty much.

[slim142]

Newer are probably better but not a big deal really

CVR's and CVX's suck compared to L7's. L5's its a toss-up if you start getting overboard with the power (L5's will burn up easier).

As low as possible? Its that or no seat pretty much.

I see, so Kicker is still a good option if we talk about L5 or L7.

About the position, you know some people like to put it in the trunk pointing up and usually they put it somewhat high. Some other people put it on top of the seat. Me personally because I have no space, but I dont know if there is any advantage if its lower or higher or if its just personal taste.

[STEvil]

If you put them in the trunk the best place is against the rear seat facing the rear of the trunk.

I own a truck therefor I do not have a trunk.

If you have a hatchback the best position is against the rear seat facing up towards the hatch (usually means angled backwards about 15-30 degrees). Camaro's will hammer insanely with that kind of setup.

Height will depend on the setup but on average its not something to worry about as long as you are placing the subs in the optimal direction and placement.

[slim142]

Thx for the tip :D

Remember to put pics when u get that pillar done

[slim142]

STEvil

Two things. First, what happened to the pictures?

Second, How does the low pass filter work? I have it on 75Hz, does that mean anything above 75Hz gets blocked or anything below gets blocked?

[STEvil]

moved them to a different directory: http://s216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/4x%20square%2010%20box1/

edit - low pass cuts out high frequency (not exact at 75hz as for given example, will have a "roll-off")

[slim142]

Oh I see
What about sub sonic? Is it good to have it lower or higher? I believe mine is in 25Hz
Wouldnt it damage the sub if its too low?

[STEvil]

depends how your system is configured.

I dont use a subsonic filter unless I have to..

[slim142]

I see, Ill leave my system where it is then

Btw, I did buy the Pioneer Premier PRO TS-W3002D4 which I will set up @ 2ohms.

With 1000watts RMS, will I be able to set off alarms? Will it be really loud? A lot of bass?

Remember Im coming from a 400watt CVR

[sinister1st]

1000 rms will bump pretty deep I am running only 500rms and I annoy my neighbor with it( sometimes he asks me turn it down), guys I would recommend zero 0 gauge power wire, this last time I installed my system I did this and I have had zero problems with my amp getting hot. Some guys will tell you it doesnt matter but it does:) I got some zero on ebay for a good deal.

[slim142]

1000 rms will bump pretty deep I am running only 500rms and I annoy my neighbor with it( sometimes he asks me turn it down), guys I would recommend zero 0 gauge power wire, this last time I installed my system I did this and I have had zero problems with my amp getting hot. Some guys will tell you it doesnt matter but it does:) I got some zero on ebay for a good deal.

Hmmm, the thing with you is that you can continuously run 500rms at high volume (I suppose right?). me, since my amp is 900 and sub is 400, I burn my coils whenever I play it too loud thats why Im upgrading.

I have 4 gauge cables. I might go for zero gauge once I get another car. Do you recommend the cables you bought? is eBay reliable for amp cables and stuff?
Wouldnt like to buy and then blow something just by saving money.

[sinister1st]

Type in metra 0 gauge via ebay they have kits that are the best bang for the buck imo. I bought a metra kit just for that thick power wire I have had no dead battery or flickering lights and my amp doesnt overheat better for your alternator also.

http://cgi.ebay.com/METRA-1-0-GAUGE-CAR-AMPLIFIER-KIT-AMP-RCA-DIST-BLOCK_W0QQitemZ300339325077QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item45ed9e6895&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Monster cable will sell u a kit like that one for more money.

[slim142]

Interesting

I will definitely try those whenever I decide to upgrade my 1k rms sub. If you could post later on if everything went good it would be great.

[STEvil]

1000 rms will bump pretty deep I am running only 500rms and I annoy my neighbor with it( sometimes he asks me turn it down), guys I would recommend zero 0 gauge power wire, this last time I installed my system I did this and I have had zero problems with my amp getting hot. Some guys will tell you it doesnt matter but it does:) I got some zero on ebay for a good deal.

I run 4 guage for 2500RMS. No amps getting hot here.

Your amps get hot because of poor cooling, poor design, or just pure inefficiency.

Besides that go look at what size your speaker cable and tinsel leads are (let alone if you have push terminals..).

[sinister1st]

I run 4 guage for 2500RMS. No amps getting hot here.

Your amps get hot because of poor cooling, poor design, or just pure inefficiency.

Besides that go look at what size your speaker cable and tinsel leads are (let alone if you have push terminals..).

No push terminals and I only use the 0 gauge for my power wire. But the metra kit has plenty of extras. I have wired many many systems and have seen people use to small of a power wire 2 many times. 4 gauge power= no no imo. Your setup is nice but i dont like the square speakers. IM sure that beast setup will make ur throat sink in. 6-700 rms is all I need.

slim I have already installed with this kit and it rocks, i dont remember exactly wich metra kit it was but one of them off ebay with 0 gauge. I sent u link upthere. The only thing I didnt like in the kit was the rcas they looked cheap but they still are working fine for me and its been over a year. It makes me sick when i was a youngster and I had a install shop do my stuff with there little thin 4 or 2 gauge then every year I had to change there cheap little fuse then finally a new harness next was to throw that trash out and get better wire:up: back then i had 2 12 inch memphis in a banpass(haha i know) and big mempis amp (when memphis was hot}

but now I have a modest setup in my caddy and it bumps got the 0 gauge doing throw the firewall and under carpet and no letdowns whatsoever besides me blowing out the front stocks:yepp:. ESPECAILLY NO HEAT cause my wires AND amp arent begging for MOAAR POWER.:rofl: FROM MY BATTERY.

[slim142]

slim I have already installed with this kit and it rocks, i dont remember exactly wich metra kit it was but one of them off ebay with 0 gauge. I sent u link upthere. The only thing I didnt like in the kit was the rcas they looked cheap but they still are working fine for me and its been over a year. It makes me sick when i was a youngster and I had a install shop do my stuff with there little thin 4 or 2 gauge then every year I had to change there cheap little fuse then finally a new harness next was to throw that trash out and get better wire:up: back then i had 2 12 inch memphis in a banpass(haha i know) and big mempis amp (when memphis was hot}

but now I have a modest setup in my caddy and it bumps got the 0 gauge doing throw the firewall and under carpet and no letdowns whatsoever besides me blowing out the front stocks:yepp:. ESPECAILLY NO HEAT cause my wires AND amp arent begging for MOAAR POWER.:rofl: FROM MY BATTERY.

Well yeah, a lot of people (wont say all) are telling me that going from 400 to 1000 will be a HUGE jump. We will find out in a week. But is true, most people are happy with 600rms thats what i heard.

One question, does it matter whether it is a branded cable kit or not?
I dont want to make mistakes again and buying rockford kits which cost an eye and a leg (JUST FOR CABLES).

[sinister1st]

Well yeah, a lot of people (wont say all) are telling me that going from 400 to 1000 will be a HUGE jump. We will find out in a week. But is true, most people are happy with 600rms thats what i heard.

One question, does it matter whether it is a branded cable kit or not?
I dont want to make mistakes again and buying rockford kits which cost an eye and a leg (JUST FOR CABLES).


All playing aside, it is to each his own my friends. If you want to use 4 gauger go ahead but from my past experienced I have had nothing but problems. I would say if you did go with 4 gauger make sure u have a nice extra big harness and fuse, Branded you mean as in monster cable? It doesnt matter thats why I went with metra, they make alot of face kits for GM cars and have superior cable (thicker for less money). I think the power cable included in mine was about 17-19feet 0g superior. 400 to 1000 rms is a huge jump were talking the police giving you a ticket in traffic:yepp:

sTevils install looks clean just like a clean install is supposed to be.:cool:

[slim142]

All playing aside, it is to each his own my friends. If you want to use 4 gauger go ahead but from my past experienced I have had nothing but problems. I would say if you did go with 4 gauger make sure u have a nice extra big harness and fuse, Branded you mean as in monster cable? It doesnt matter thats why I went with metra, they make alot of face kits for GM cars and have superior cable (thicker for less money). I think the power cable included in mine was about 17-19feet 0g superior. 400 to 1000 rms is a huge jump were talking the police giving you a ticket in traffic:yepp:

sTevils install looks clean just like a clean install is supposed to be.:cool:

Im currently using 4 gauge Rockford cables. Dont know how good they are but I havent had any problems. Just one time I played music with the car off for 3 hours and the battery died lol hahaha.

I will definitely try those Metra cables next time. I want to make sure I will be 3500rms READY :D

I think Im gonna go to the police department, have a little conversation to see if they are such @ssholes to put tickets because of little-too-loud subwoofers. Cmon, its Miami man, Loud music is everywhere :cool:

On the serious note, what are the costs of those noise tickets?
I guess Im also gonna have to go to an empty parking lot with a friend to see where to limit my volume bar lol

But I also ask myself, why am I worrying so much when we have people like Stevil with more than 2000rms? LOL

[STEvil]

I've never had a noise violation ticket or warning, but I turn my stuff down if i'm in a place where it might annoy people.

swapped to the 18 now btw.

[slim142]

I've never had a noise violation ticket or warning, but I turn my stuff down if i'm in a place where it might annoy people.

swapped to the 18 now btw.

Oh definitely, in a small plaza or by a church I wouldnt mind lowering the volume.

[slim142]

Ok so I did get the Pionner Premier PRO TS-W3002D4

Here is the picture of how my amplifier settings look like, can somebody help me how to tune it?
It is tuned to my Kicker CVR right now so I realized that was why today while playing music to break it in, I only hit ultra low frequencies (Lil Wayne - A Millie) and other songs didnt hit as hard as they did with the CVR.

Help is really appreciated

Pionner Premier PRO TS-W3002D4 Specifications (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Subwoofers/Champion-Pro/TS-W3002D2%7CD4?tab=B)


http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa298/maleado/SonyXM-D9001GTRSettings.jpg

[STEvil]

what box was the kicker in vs the new 1.25 ported box?

level will be between 6 and 0.5, "3" should be at whatever your preferences (its the db per octave rolloff), subsonic filter probably about 25 or 30 (just play with it), low boost maybe +5 and "24" if you want it to sound harder. Raise low pass to whatever you think sounds best (start at 50, listen to a song with lots of high/fast bass).

Order of adjustment:

Level + off/12/24
Subsonic
Low pass
Low Boost + 12/24

edit

If you have a digital multimeter you can touch it to the positive speaker terminal of your amp and a ground point and measure the AC voltage of your amp being output. Square the voltage and divide by the ohm load to get true power output.

When you adjust your gains you will want to aim for about 40v AC at 75% volume with a 50hz test tone to make 900w @ 2ohms. That is if you are going for max power though, otherwise set it by ear to where it sounds good.

Here's a couple decent discussions on the topic of setting gains:
http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/index.php?showtopic=4382
http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/index.php?showtopic=23462

[slim142]

what box was the kicker in vs the new 1.25 ported box?

level will be between 6 and 0.5, "3" should be at whatever your preferences (its the db per octave rolloff), subsonic filter probably about 25 or 30 (just play with it), low boost maybe +5 and "24" if you want it to sound harder. Raise low pass to whatever you think sounds best (start at 50, listen to a song with lots of high/fast bass).

Order of adjustment:

Level + off/12/24
Subsonic
Low pass
Low Boost + 12/24

Thanks Stevil to the rescue :D

The Pioneer is in the same box the CVR was in, I cant really change the box for now. Need to save for other things for now. 1.12cubic ft I believe

Btw, #6 applies to the Low Pass filter, not to the Low Boost (see the shadow?). So for now I will leave it where it is, which is 24db I believe.

Will follow your advice on the order of adjustment. It really needs a good tune up since boom boom pow (haha i know) wasnt that impressive. And we talking about 400 vs 1000

[slim142]

Hey Stevil

Btw, is it true that is bad to have the low boost higher than the level (gain)?

EDIT: Wow, this gain thing seems so complicated. I believe I will just do it by ear since i dont have a DMM. I first need to know if its bad to have low boost higher than gain.

[slim142]

I also have to mention, Right now with my amplifier set up with CVR settings, I have to rise a lot more the volume to bring more bass. I think thats a too low gain problem right?

[STEvil]

could be sub/box efficiency. The box makes or breaks a sub... tiny boxes suck ;)

[slim142]

Im thinking that it could be my box that is holding me.

I mean, if we compare sizes, the Pioneer is 3 times bigger and 3 times heavier so I suppose it needs more space?

Dam, I dont want to buy another box :(

I was playing with the Gain, and the low pass filter today, sub didnt seem to be affected, only when low pass filter was lowered to 50, there was less bass.

[STEvil]

You could build a box, its relatively easy to do and many places that sell MDF will cut it for you for 50c a cut or something.

[slim142]

I dont know of any place

Im trying to contact this store that sold me the CVR and the box to see what they say about my new pioneer and the box it needs.

So if you have the wrong box (too small), the bass will not come out right?

[slim142]

Wow, I just tuned my system (spent like 45 mins), bass has improved a little.

Still, basic songs lack the bass for some reason. I can understand the CVR was getting its full power, but shouldnt I hear the same bass level with the Pioneer?

Btw, I also got the measurements from my box and the cubic feet and here they are

WIDTH 18 5/8 (16.88 without port)
HEIGHT 16 1/4
DEPTH 15 1/8 (0.125)

Port HEIGHT: 14 5/8
Port WIDTH: 1 3/4

So the cubic feet of my box is 1.78937 (1.79). Now, I can see why you were telling me so bad that 1.12 would sound so bad. Im thinking the 112 in the receipt meant "one box for (1)12 inch"

So yeah, now we can conclude my box is not too small or small. Now, we can see is even bigger than the MAX recommended (1.60). Now, to what is it tuned? I have no idea and i dont know how to find that out. Maybe you can help me more now that we have my official box measurements?

Now that we have small box out of question, I have some questions remaining

1) Is the box too big? Recommended is 1.25, max 1.60 for ported. Im on 1.79 or the bigger the better?
2) Now that I tuned my amp, does the amp have anything to do now? Sony XM-D9001GTR 900watts RMS @ 2ohms
3) Could it be that the subwoofer is still breaking in?
4) Could it be my amp is not powerful/efficient enough?

[STEvil]

did you take internal measurements or external? Port volume (external measurements) needs to be subtracted from the box volume as well. How long is your port? I come up with a figure of near 2.4 cubic feet btw...

I would recommend 2-2.5 cubic feet, probably closer to 2.

I would choose box (if its really 1.12-1.79) and amp. Sony amps are notoriously poor quality. Also factors like how the amplifiers dampening factor changes with resistance will make it sound different. Did you connect the sub properly? It might be worth a try swapping the + and - around on the sub or amp though it shouldnt matter.

[slim142]

did you take internal measurements or external? Port volume (external measurements) needs to be subtracted from the box volume as well. How long is your port? I come up with a figure of near 2.4 cubic feet btw...

I would recommend 2-2.5 cubic feet, probably closer to 2.

I would choose box (if its really 1.12-1.79) and amp. Sony amps are notoriously poor quality. Also factors like how the amplifiers dampening factor changes with resistance will make it sound different. Did you connect the sub properly? It might be worth a try swapping the + and - around on the sub or amp though it shouldnt matter.

These are external measurements. The sub is so heavy and big I couldnt take it out once I put it inside the box, but I did make sure it was properly connected. - with - and + with + and then take one - and connect it to the box as well as one +
(does it matter if you connect the - from one coil and the + from the other coil?, not saying I did, but just want to make sure)

Do you really thnk the subwoofer I might connected the sub inproperly? How can you tell if you did? Does the sub work if only one coil is connected (even though is bad)?

Im believing my box is 1.75, keeping in mind that I used external measurements, we just disregard the extra 5/8s and it also makes sense the chinese guy who sold me this wante to give me the max recommended ported enclosure for the CVR which is 1.75

We have reached a point in which all I have left to do is go to this chinese guy who lives 15 mins away from me. He sells pioneers and kickers so he might find out right there whats wrong with my system.

Hey Stevil, how come you get 2.40? Thats waaay too big, almost double what my CVR max recommended is (1.75).

And why recommend me an even bigger box? I thought it was better to go with manufacturer recommendations? in this case max would be 1.60, isnt 2.0 too much?

FInally, if the sony is not efficient, shouldnt it still send the same wattage as it did to the CVR? SHouldnt the pioneer pound if not harder just as hard as the CVR did?

[slim142]

I getting to the conclusion that it might be the box after all.

After spending some time reaidng, asking and doing some research specially in the pioneer website, I believe this subwoofer was made for small boxes. The subwoofer does not need more than 1.6 and thats the max. Im giving it an enclosure with 1.75 so Im pretty sure Im losing frequencies because of the huge size of the box. In addition, this sub was not intended to be hooked on open space, so makes sense.

I think I will make a 1.3 box with the one that I already have. Do you know of any website that sells boxes?

Btw, here are my amplifier settings. Let me know if you see anything odd, strange or "too much"

Level: 0.5
Subsonic Filter: 10Hz (Flat)
Subsonic Switch: OFF
Low Boost: 1:00 o'clock (60%)
Low Pass Filter: 80hz (11:00 o'clock)
Low Pass Switch: 24db

[STEvil]

You might have been better off getting a second CVR by the sound of it :(

its always a pain trying to get subs to work how you want.. i've taken out the 4 10's, put the 18 in, now I have only 2 10's in (two ~2.5ft^3 ported boxes) and soon i'll have the 18 in again with an 8ft^3 box....


You can make your current box "smaller" by putting some material inside the box to take up space... that way you save a bunch of money if it doesnt help. Make sure to secure the stuff inside the box or it will rattle.

Box
ext 18.625 x 16.25 x 15.125 = 4577.676 in^3 = 2.649 ft^3
int 16.875 x 14.5 x 13.375 = 3272.695 in^3 = 1.894 ft^3 (assuming 3/4" thick mdf)

Port
int mouth measurements? 14.625 x 1.75 x ? =
ext volume measurements: 16.375 x 3.5 x ? = 248.832 in^3 (assuming 3/4" thick mdf)

Is the port ~4.34 inches long internally? Sounds a bit short... so i'm gonna guess 1/2" MDF was used or the measurements somewhere are not quite right.


I forgot to mention the Pioneers could also have a different frequency response curves to the CVR's. Though they might hit 30hz the same for example, they might not hit 125hz the same.

[slim142]

Wow man, Im kinda annoyed right now.

First, I dont have space for two subs and second, this HAS TO BE BETTER (GRRRRRRR), its 1000watts!

I dont know, I guess Im just gonna have to spend more money on a box. I will try to get a new 1.30 cubic feet box ported tuned at 35hz (is that ok?) and see how it sounds. If it does sound bad, I will definitely sell it and look for something else.

Just have two more questions

Will the Pioneer blow or get harm if I play it loud in its current 1.75cubic box?

Does the sub work if you have only one coil connected? Not saying I did it wrong but I want to make sure. I mean, the bass comes out at the right moment like it should, just not as loud. But this keeps moving around my mind for some reason lol. Can it blow if only one coil is connected?

[STEvil]

You can cause damage if you have it connected incorrectly. You will only damage a sub in a large box if you are pushing it with too much power or if you are pushing it to a large xmax (the distance the cone moves) that creates usually audible distortion or stressing..

The sub is not 1000w, the Amp is. Weak links in a system are just that and unless you know you hooked it up correctly you may only be feeding it say 250w.. or 500.. or who knows what. Or if you've shorted a coil you could be over-dampening the other coil.. possibly leading to damage.

I would recommend pulling the sub and checking your wiring first. Secondly put some material in the box to take up a bit of space to see what the difference between 1.3 and 1.75 is if you are sure your coils are done right.

Think of each "speaker" in this image as a coil.

http://www.the12volt.com/12voltimages/2_4ohm_svc_2ohm.gif

[slim142]

Ok got it, will not play my sub loud. I really dont want to blow it or damage it.

About the wattage, my amp is 900 and my sub 1000.

What do you mean by shortening a coil?

I will definitely check the wires before playing the sub again and fix my little mistake. I will play it and see how it goes. Then if nothing happens, put maybe phone books inside and see how it sounds.

God dammit, I didnt know the freakin box was that important!!! :shocked::shocked::shocked:

Btw, this is how I connected it (MY MISTAKE-> You see the two green dots? Those are the (+ -)terminals that I connected to the amp, I think I should have connected the right-sided negative as shown in the picture????)

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa298/maleado/1DVC_4-ohm_mono.jpg

[Dave_Sz]

In addition, this sub was not intended to be hooked on open space, so makes sense.



That's not true, actually. The sub has a pretty high Qts number at .65 which means it could be used as an open air woofer. The Fs is also pretty close to 30hz.
My guess would be your gains are poorly set up, well they are you have no DMM or an oscilloscope. Tuning it by ear will give you a blown sub or amp. Wiring might be bad.

[slim142]

Well, I dont know if my gain is right or not. However...

I just went to the car and took out the sub, checked the wired, fixed my error in wiring, tried a quick song and guess what? The sub sounds MUCH BETTER! I would say is actually fixed. I played a song which had no bass last time and now that I fixed the wiring, the bass is back!

I felt like the Pioneer could do even more so I decided to put some phone books inside (two), and when I played the song, I felt the bass was a little stronger. I felt that the 10% it was missing, was back. However, then I felt the pages of the books making sounds a bit and since I didnt want to damage the subwoofer, I turned it off quickly and removed the books and put the sub back.

Now, the bass is back which is a good thing. I just need to test a couple more songs to see if all the frequencies of the CVR can be played by the Pioneer. Then, it will be time to fill the box or just get a new one to the specifications of the sub and i should be fine.

Thanks for the help stevil, now I just need to find the right box and I should be good to go!

[Dave_Sz]

what was wrong with your wiring? Or did you have it wired for 4ohm and now it's at 2ohm in which case the sound increase is normal and your problem is still there...

[slim142]

what was wrong with your wiring? Or did you have it wired for 4ohm and now it's at 2ohm in which case the sound increase is normal and your problem is still there...

Well you see where the two green dots are in the subwoofer in the diagram? I had those two going to the box (before the amp of course). What I did to fix it was have it just like the diagram. + form the left side and - from the right side (from different coils I should say) and now the bass is back.

However, I have noticed I have lost some frequencies. Im pretty sure that has to be the oversized box.

[Dave_Sz]

so you had it connected to just one coil, meaning half the wattage of the rated sub. If you ran 900rms from the amp into the one coil that was rated for lets say 500, well, you might have problems. Now you have it hooked up at 2 ohm, as I said...

[slim142]

so you had it connected to just one coil, meaning half the wattage of the rated sub. If you ran 900rms from the amp into the one coil that was rated for lets say 500, well, you might have problems. Now you have it hooked up at 2 ohm, as I said...

No

I did have both coils connected, I just had the positive from the box on the wrong +
I was suppose to have it on the left + and I had it on the right +

[Dave_Sz]

the picture with two green dots shows only 1 coil being used...

[slim142]

Exactly

But I still had both + connected with a shorter cable as well as the negatives.

Basically imagine that diagram but the positive that goes to the amp is the + next to the - that is going to the amp. With both + and - still connected in parallel.

[Dave_Sz]

if you connect dual 4ohm coils in parallel, they become 2ohm.
I think you're confused or what you're saying is confusing me.
As long as the positive from the amp is connected to both positives on the woofer, as well as negative from amp is connected to both negatives on woofer, you've got 2ohm and you're fine. That's parallel. What you had was amp+ to coil1+ and amp- to coil2-, then coil1- to coil2+?

[STEvil]

I'm confused too lol...

+ to + to + is the same no matter which one you connect to as long as you dont connect to a - by mistake or leave a coil open.

I think what you might have done when you originally hooked it up was wiggled a wire loose or not had a good connection. You need good connection or stuff goes downhill REALLY fast.

As to the box, just put some 2x4's in to take up the excess box volume ;)

[slim142]

I'm confused too lol...

+ to + to + is the same no matter which one you connect to as long as you dont connect to a - by mistake or leave a coil open.

I think what you might have done when you originally hooked it up was wiggled a wire loose or not had a good connection. You need good connection or stuff goes downhill REALLY fast.

As to the box, just put some 2x4's in to take up the excess box volume ;)

Yeah Im confusing it more.
Well lets just say that somehow the bass came back. So yes I did have something wrong, but like I said I just changed the + that goes to the amplifier to the other +, thats it. Maybe the contacts were loose like Stevil said.

What you mean by 2x4s? :shrug:

[STEvil]

2x4's are wood used in the construction of tables, sawhorses, inside house walls, in the roof, in the floor.... all over. Can also get 4x6's etc.. 2x4's are just more common.

[slim142]

Is it really a good idea to just fill the inside? Does the structure of the inside of the box matters to the sub?

Also, I changed my low pass filter to 100Hz. Im so happy I finally have the sub right where the CVR left. I know it would be better with a recommended size box, but for now at least the worries of bad wiring or no bass are gone and Im enjoying every second of this sub.

[STEvil]

the more random the internal structure is the better, and the longer the air flow path for the port the better. Smaller boxes tend to make a sub sound "harder".

Remember this: If you want to feel the shake you need a big box. If you want your ears to hurt you need a smaller box.

[slim142]

Remember this: If you want to feel the shake you need a big box. If you want your ears to hurt you need a smaller box.

Interesting, I dont want my ears to hurt from bass and have to decrease the low boost.

I will keep that in mind for the rest of my life. I just realized my box might be the right one after all. I dont get those ugly bass tones in songs, just pure punchy bass where it needs to be and whenever is needed.

[Donnie27]

the more random the internal structure is the better, and the longer the air flow path for the port the better. Smaller boxes tend to make a sub sound "harder".

Remember this: If you want to feel the shake you need a big box. If you want your ears to hurt you need a smaller box.

That's not always the case! There are some great sealed subs. You seal them so using smaller enclosures are needed. There is some great software for calculating the size of the enclosure if you know the specs of the Sub. I like Pioneer Premiere subs not because they are the best but the offer the most bang for the Buck. My GK Bass Cab uses 4 X 10's and is sealed. Still sakes the walls in my Den! There's a catch, sealed is harder on the speaker and reduces the speaker's life.

For general info sake!

Please don't listen to anyone talking about 30Hz is Mid Bass because that is a flat out and out LIE! I'll stand by that statement and even as someone claims to being an Audiophile says otherwise. It's pure stupidity. As someone once asked me; "Donnie, give me as example of 30Hz?" The lowest note on a 5 string Bass (B) is right at 30Hz (depending info one says 29.8, another says 30.9). So according to folks claiming to be Audiophiles, B string Bass Guitars. So should they be called Mid Bass Guitars LOL! See how silly that is? So below 20Hz (some with Pristine hearing or 23 to 25Hz for us mere mortals.) is Infrasonic that can be felt more than hear. Also kills your hearing faster.

Anyway, 4 Premiere 10's. The two I have rated at 18Hz and they've been measure down to 15Hz. The newer one ate rated at 20Hz but will also go below 18Hz. I made a larger enclosure for my 12" Premiere Sub on my HTPC. I had to stuff it defuse the back blast-wash LOL!

http://s488.photobucket.com/albums/rr245/Donnie27_photos/?action=view&current=OldandNewSubs.jpg

http://s488.photobucket.com/albums/rr245/Donnie27_photos/?action=view&current=BassCabandGuitar.jpg

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.guitar.bass/msg/b31962d90cd0f9dd


On a standard 88-key piano, the lowest note is an A
note at 27.5 Hz. An electric bass guitar with a low-B
string has a B note at 30.9 Hz and this B note is two
notes above the lowest note of the A note on the piano.

> Where, exactly, is the bottom E of the bass guitar on the piano?

The open bottom E string on an electric bass guitar
has a frequency of 41.2 Hz. This E note is the fifth
white key from the left on a standard 88-key piano.

Now unless some one wants to hear 155 and 208mm howitzers hehehe!

[slim142]

Great to see someone with Pioneer!

Right now Im still trying to see where I can get a 1.3cubic feet box. The reason why is because my current box seems a little big and I feel like Im missing bass.

1.75 cubic feet is what I get (with outside measurements), I wont be going sealed thats for sure.

[STEvil]

That's not always the case! There are some great sealed subs. You seal them so using smaller enclosures are needed.
As you will notice the entire conversation has been about ported enclosures. Sealed is good but as you elaborate below to get meaningful output at low frequencies (30hz and under) you need a lot of cone area which negates the benefit of the sealed enclosure (small) vs a larger vented one.


There is some great software for calculating the size of the enclosure if you know the specs of the Sub. I like Pioneer Premiere subs not because they are the best but the offer the most bang for the Buck. My GK Bass Cab uses 4 X 10's and is sealed. Still sakes the walls in my Den! There's a catch, sealed is harder on the speaker and reduces the speaker's life.

You want power? XXX in 20 cubes tuned to 12hz. 120db @ 10hz.. The reason it is "harder" on the speaker is due to impedance rise.


For general info sake!

Please don't listen to anyone talking about 30Hz is Mid Bass because that is a flat out and out LIE! I'll stand by that statement and even as someone claims to being an Audiophile says otherwise. It's pure stupidity. As someone once asked me; "Donnie, give me as example of 30Hz?" The lowest note on a 5 string Bass (B) is right at 30Hz (depending info one says 29.8, another says 30.9). So according to folks claiming to be Audiophiles, B string Bass Guitars. So should they be called Mid Bass Guitars LOL! See how silly that is? So below 20Hz (some with Pristine hearing or 23 to 25Hz for us mere mortals.) is Infrasonic that can be felt more than hear. Also kills your hearing faster.

It is the decibels that cause the damage, not the frequency.


Anyway, 4 Premiere 10's. The two I have rated at 18Hz and they've been measure down to 15Hz. The newer one ate rated at 20Hz but will also go below 18Hz. I made a larger enclosure for my 12" Premiere Sub on my HTPC. I had to stuff it defuse the back blast-wash LOL!

http://s488.photobucket.com/albums/rr245/Donnie27_photos/?action=view&current=OldandNewSubs.jpg

http://s488.photobucket.com/albums/rr245/Donnie27_photos/?action=view&current=BassCabandGuitar.jpg

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.guitar.bass/msg/b31962d90cd0f9dd


Now unless some one wants to hear 155 and 208mm howitzers hehehe!

If I cant feel the howitzer it isnt good enough for me ;)

[slim142]

If I dont know my box AT ALL, how do I know what is it tuned for and whats the lowest frequency im hitting?

[Donnie27]

As you will notice the entire conversation has been about ported enclosures. Sealed is good but as you elaborate below to get meaningful output at low frequencies (30hz and under) you need a lot of cone area which negates the benefit of the sealed enclosure (small) vs a larger vented one.

The reply was to a comment made about none ported or how and what kind of port. No, you do NOT need a large of cone area or large ports for low frq. My 10" Sub does a legit 18Hz" with small dips to 16Hz(not enough to count) My comment was aimed at dispelling a few myths.


the longer the air flow path for the port the better

That's not always true. It depends on the Cabinet or Enclosure, the size of the port and Etc..

http://www.madisound.com/services/hifispeakerdesign.php

Ported Box section-->http://www.mh-audio.nl/spk_calc.asp#ported


You want power? XXX in 20 cubes tuned to 12hz. 120db @ 10hz.. The reason it is "harder" on the speaker is due to impedance rise.

It's due to impedance and movement of the speaker it has to work against itself sealed enclosures. Ported and BIG for loud, sealed and a lot smaller accuracy.

Quick and Dirty facts

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-GwTV5gGtKey/learn/learningcenter/car/subwoofers_enclosures.html

Sealed in more accurate than ported and my old Mach 1's are sealed and are also efficient at about 92db. My Ported CS-922a's were 98db.

http://support.radioshack.com/support_audio/doc15/15406.htm


It is the decibels that cause the damage, not the frequency.

Both causes damage! You can have one without the other.


If I cant feel the howitzer it isnt good enough for me ;)

That's how you loose your hearing! Ask any canon *c*ocker? Yes you can feel the 5 or 8Hz miles away LOL! What do you think that eeeeerie feel is folks get during a tornado? Low Frequency my friend.

I love ported and sealed is all I'm saying.

[Donnie27]

If I dont know my box AT ALL, how do I know what is it tuned for and whats the lowest frequency im hitting?

http://www.madisound.com/services/hifispeakerdesign.php

http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?srchExt=CAT&srchCat=360

Pay
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=500-921

Free
http://www.ajdesigner.com/speaker/index.php

Many many more out there.

[slim142]

Thanks will check them later on when I get home.


http://www.madisound.com/services/hifispeakerdesign.php

http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?srchExt=CAT&srchCat=360

Pay
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=500-921

Free
http://www.ajdesigner.com/speaker/index.php

Many many more out there.

[STEvil]

That's how you loose your hearing! Ask any canon *c*ocker? Yes you can feel the 5 or 8Hz miles away LOL! What do you think that eeeeerie feel is folks get during a tornado? Low Frequency my friend.

I love ported and sealed is all I'm saying.

Dont have to ask one, my Grandpa told stories all the time :up:

I'll leave the rest of your replies alone just because I dont want to muddle this up anymore.. suffice it to say you're "correct" but off base on just about everything.

[slim142]

Dam man here is another :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: that happened

Today while blasting my sub the burning smell came back HORRIBLY!!!! You couldnt even believe how bad it smelled. It smelled as if the car was in flames.

So I reduced the gain from 0.5 to 1 now, things seem a lot better but some bass is out :(

I guess this is it, I will have to get a new smaller box whether I like it or NOT.

Any comments are appreciated

[Donnie27]

Dont have to ask one, my Grandpa told stories all the time :up:

I'll leave the rest of your replies alone just because I dont want to muddle this up anymore.. suffice it to say you're "correct" but off base on just about everything.

Lived through two twisters. No biggie STEvil, I like the 4 10" just the OP asked!

[Dave_Sz]

uhhhhh, where did the smell come from and what burned? If you had smell there was smoke. Again, and this just seems like pure stupidity on your part, your gains aren't set correctly, you don't even know what they are set to, yet you're blasting your sub? Next time just take it to someone and get it installed by someone with experience...

[STEvil]

Dam man here is another :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: that happened

Today while blasting my sub the burning smell came back HORRIBLY!!!! You couldnt even believe how bad it smelled. It smelled as if the car was in flames.

So I reduced the gain from 0.5 to 1 now, things seem a lot better but some bass is out :(

I guess this is it, I will have to get a new smaller box whether I like it or NOT.

Any comments are appreciated

probably cooked a coil :(

[slim142]

Yeah Ive decided to stop blasting it until I get a multimeter.

I have also decided to stop spending money on this system. Im saving money to get an Fi BTL 15". Unfortunately, due to my lack of experience, I thought that there was such thing as "more wattage, more bass" but I have reached the limits of most 12"s and I dont want to spend more money in here.

Saving for an Fi BTL 15" and hopefully a Hifonics amplifier to power the beast. By then I should have the DMM and set the gain correctly.

The pioneer still plays good, but Im so scare to rise the volume now...

[STEvil]

Limits of most 12's? Nah, you're not even close :)

[slim142]

Limits of most 12's? Nah, you're not even close :)

Whats the highest wattage a single 12 can go? and how much more air can a better 12" move?

Unless its an Fi, I dont see any other model.

[STEvil]

The numbers you want to look at are xmax.. mechanical and linear.

Cerwin Vega Stoker Pro's are the current best in that category in 12 and 15" drivers. Fi's no slouch of course though and will probably take more of a beating ;)

Highest Xmax single 12? Got to be this... thing.. 125mm peak to peak. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GUh6Frh_tQ

Yes, that sub is being fed 40KW.

edit - here's more info for you http://soundsxplosive.com.au/creations/sxbarrow.html

[STEvil]

Out with the old and in with the new!!

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/HK18s/0116001501.jpg

[slim142]

18s?

[STEvil]

Yup

[slim142]

...

More details?

[STEvil]

MA Audio HardKore 18's. ~6 cubic feet per sub, tuned to 30hz.

140db on the dash with doors open with music only 800w input power ;)

Bigger amp arriving in mail tues or thurs..

[slim142]

God dam 140db WTF man. Thats too loud already. And you mean 800watts RMS to each? I dont think is possible to do 140db with 1600watts, is it?

Im glad you brought this thread back, all this time I been getting educated in the car audio field and now I dont have to steal your thread or ask noobie questions ;)

Got myself a Sundown 2000D which is waiting to be installed. True 1000watts RMS for my Pioneer. Finally ditching that old overated Sony amp :P

[STEvil]

no, 800RMS total ;)

Sundown 2000D will be a bit more than 1000RMS lol!

[slim142]

Haha I know, but Im going to run it at 2ohms so my Pioneer only gets the 1000watts it needs.

How in the world can you be getting 140dbs with 800watts RMS? Whats your secret man? haha

I guess its more related to air displacement and subwoofer size, and not forgeting the super lows you can hit with 18s...

[STEvil]

big box, big port, small cab :)

edit - I was using the song "Human Drum" by Cubanate. Its a monster of a song.

[slim142]

Hmmm wait a sec, a smaller port is what lets you hit lower frequencies. I know that for sure, learned it from Mr Meade video in youtube :D

[STEvil]

lol, dont believe everything on youtube!

edit - i'll rephrase that. A smaller port can result in a lower tuning frequency but will add "chuffing" if you go too small, and decreases efficiency. Depending on the sub and box you can get away with it in most "normal" installs but its better to just do it properly and use a decent amount of port area.

Port length vs area is what gives you your tuning frequency.

[slim142]

Oh yeah definitely, thats why I said I got that from one of Mr. Meade's videos (Steve Meade? SMD? Sounds familiar?). I dont just listen to any video out there ;)

He has a box with 4 18s in it. He has this plate that when is removed, box is tuned to 50Hz, when the plate is put back, box is tuned to 30Hz, but when talking about smaller applications, you cant apply the same rule.

May I ask for more pics of your build? :D

[STEvil]

Not much to show yet lol. When I put my other amp in i'll grab a few. Gotta make a better way of retaining the box as well.. it ripped the screws out of the back of the cab that were holding it from coming forwards.

Steve's forums are pretty good ;)

[slim142]

Dam, well when you are finished with it I will be really interested to see teh finished product :)

Btw, if you can make a video it would be great.

[STEvil]

Some quck-fix repair due to sucky glue...

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/HK18s/0119001315.jpg

Amp arrived. 22nd one on the assembly line of 100 made ;)

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/Amps/fac4000d.jpg

[slim142]

GOD DAM
Thats a huge amp. Even longer than the 4500D. How many watts RMS at 1ohm? It is prob also estable at 0.5ohm right?

[STEvil]

Rated at 4000W RMS @ 1 ohm 12v. Tested over 8,000W RMS @ 17v 0.33 ohm or something...

[slim142]

Well I Havent really seen testing done with 17v, I think 14v is more accurate testing? I mean, most people dont get 17v. Please correct me if Im wrong, thats something I Havent really researched yet.

On the other side, 0.33 ohms well yeah 8k watts at that point is amazing, but what sub runs at 0.33ohms? In my mind, when it comes to "best subs", the max reached (by BTL 18) is 0.7ohms. I know there must be 0.5ohm subs out there, I just dont know how good they are compared to Fi. And if there is anything lower than 0.5? I have no clue.

[STEvil]

12v is most accurate, 14v is the average, 17+ is just for seeing what you can do or if you have the system to back it up..

Subs come in everything from 0.5 to 16 ohm per coil. My MA Audio are quad 1.3 ohm which means I can wire each sub to either 0.325 (all 4 coils parallel), 5.2 (all 4 coils series) or, 2x 2.6 (series-parallel, mono-block would see 1.3 ohm). Since I have 2 subs my best options with most amps are 0.65 ohm (series subs, paralleled coils) or 4x 2.6 (0.65 again) ohm (parallel subs, series-parallel coils). Accounting for "impedance rise" my 0.65 ohm setup is more like 1 ohm when cold, maybe more like 1.3-1.5 when the coils heat up.

With an amp that is not 1-ohm or lower stable you would have to do 5.2 pallel with 5.2 for 2.6 ohm load. A 2-channel amp is not recommended as that would be a 1.3 ohm bridged load (though there are some that will be fine with that).

On a side note I dislike more than 2 coils per sub lol... and i'm already looking at changing to different subs. Maelstrom 18's would be fun, more linear xmax than any other 18 out there other than the Adire Audio XXX ;)

[slim142]

Yep, after reading your post I dont like the idea of more than 2 coils. Too much wiring and configurations.

So how exactly are you achieving 17v? I suppose Big 3, at least a pair of good 2600a+ batteries and a really good (or dual) 200a+ alternator?

[STEvil]

17v can only be achieved by using modified alternators and voltage regulators. There are a few 14/16 volt batteries on the market but you need an alternator to back them up or you lose your charge. You could go to 18 with 6 volt batteries in series...

I'll only be running up to about 14.5 volts at the most, its all my alternator can put out.

[slim142]

I see, well good luck with your build and post pics when ur done

[Donnie27]

Some quck-fix repair due to sucky glue...

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/HK18s/0119001315.jpg

Amp arrived. 22nd one on the assembly line of 100 made ;)

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc232/STEviltoo/Amps/fac4000d.jpg

Yikes dewd, you da man!

[STEvil]

Took out the Kicker ZX750.1 and put in my "old" Lanzar Opti2000D that I just got back from the repair shop (some soldering inside came apart..) so I could test it out. Damn that extra power makes a difference LOL.

[slim142]

And over here, gotta go some place now to do some papers and in the afternoon im going to install my Sundown 2000D with the LOC I got yesterday.

I cant wait to test this sundown baby

[STEvil]

well, is it in yet? Did you blow up the Pioneer yet? lol ;)

[slim142]

Haha no its not in yet.

Went to a trusty place and just realized that I have a factory sub, yeah I know, shoulda known that since the beggining but oh well with so many tools in the trunk its almost impossible to see it.

So now, I started running speaker signal to the LOC from that 8inch sub in the back since I dont want high pass filtered signal from the speakers. Gonna try to do the remote wire today. I really do hope I can get it done by today.

[slim142]

WoooHooooO!

Remote installed, RCA installed. Amp up and running.

Couldnt be happier. Sundown really made this a premium one. My sub makes goes lower than ever before and hits super hard! Never seen my sub hit with such an impact.

Will take pics later and prob a video too.

[STEvil]

Dont kill it ;)

[slim142]

i know i know

my gain is 1/4 of the way and i already need to lower it a bit lol

[Donnie27]

i know i know

my gain is 1/4 of the way and i already need to lower it a bit lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anfe8W-adKk&feature=related

Sorry guys, I love music, love my hearing and don't want to get anywhere new 140db unless I'm wearing hearing protection. I'm not into who can bang it the loudest or etc... My system is for good sound, not trying to be heard a mile away LOL! Yet, more power to those who are.:rofl:

Yes, I've seen a Pioneer TS-W307D4 12" Subwoofer like mine blown. It made a lot of loud bass before it died.:shakes: Taken out by the Miami Bass Machine.

Realistic bass test! One of many.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWAH7HQY_Ys

Even my 10's can do it with no sweat and loud enough to shake the walls.

[STEvil]

Donnie - You gotta watch some movies and stuff with good infrasonics and a good 18 or 21.. or two. 10's just dont cut it anymore after that lol.

[Donnie27]

Donnie - You gotta watch some movies and stuff with good infrasonics and a good 18 or 21.. or two. 10's just dont cut it anymore after that lol.

Yes, I know you're right. Yet, two 10's are more accurate and mine doing 16Hz is a thing of beauty. At 10Hz you can count the Woofer's waves during its excursions as nothing is heard but the Whooooose of air is felt LF is felt. Yes, the last Infinite Baffle demo I saw wasn't great for loudness, it was the infrasonic impact that impressed all 5 of us. Done with eight 18" woofers playing back the Organ in the Mormon Tabernacle.

I must say, the sounds low and loud as Howitzers and Twin Engine Fighter Jets just doesn't excite me like it use to. I respect and understand the love for it because I use to Love it very much as well. Now my hearing is cut-off at about 15KHz and nowhere near the 21 it used to be. I honestly want to save what I have left. I love music to much to kill it even more.

Please remember, I was a Tanker in the Army for almost 8 years. 105mm and 120mm high velocity rounds make sonic booms at the end of the gun tube isn't a walk in the park.

I sold one of these.
http://www.pssl.com/!TG!C13QJX!ZE1U3u29rEVA!/Cerwin-Vega-TS-42-21-In-Stroker-Subwoofer--s

Though it only had a conventional 18" and not the 21 Jackhammer type stroker in this one. After playing my Bass Guitar through my Bud's, it (and 3 others) shakes the big hall he had it in. Yet, I was glad to get back to my sealed four 10"'s in the GK Backline Cab. Why? I wanted to hear more than my low B string LOL! I'd take an Ampeg 8 X10 bass cab any day of the week.

http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr245/Donnie27_photos/BassCabandGuitar.jpg

Can run two old school 15" from the 450 watt amp as well. One on top here and another on the other side of the Room. This 15" is more accurate than the 18" JBL it replaced.

[slim142]

I dont wanna try listening to 10hz on my sub, is it possible to even hear such low frequency?

[STEvil]

The objective when you go subsonic is to feel it, not hear it :)

[slim142]

Well can u feel subsonics with 12s? last time i tried it my sub didnt like it. So i left my subsonic filter alone

[STEvil]

Takes a couple 12's usually and a low tuned box.

Technically anything can get low, the problem is you dont get much output when you go low.

[Donnie27]

I dont wanna try listening to 10hz on my sub, is it possible to even hear such low frequency?

STEvil is right, it is there to be felt, not heard. The lower the sound, the harder it is to make that sound loud. Sealed horn type enclosures are close but weigh a ton, not easy to build and are expensive to buy. Then, a lot of source material worth listening to (Opinion) that kind of bass isn't worth listening to and damages your once you do get it. Then after you lost hearing, you'll need even louder and lower stuff to enjoy it.

[STEvil]

10-20hz is pretty hard to do damage to your ears, in fact the lower your frequency is the more output you need to "do damage". Jet engines, rock concerts, etc.. all that is in the 150-400hz range for the 110-130db+

I should get a vid of 20hz in my truck.. about an inch of door flex lol.

[slim142]

10-20hz is pretty hard to do damage to your ears, in fact the lower your frequency is the more output you need to "do damage". Jet engines, rock concerts, etc.. all that is in the 150-400hz range for the 110-130db+

I should get a vid of 20hz in my truck.. about an inch of door flex lol.

Definitely, thats what my problem is. I never experienced an 18 in real life. Lets not even mention subsonics...

[STEvil]

Go to a local audio shop and ask if there's gonna be any comps near by, usually someone doing demos at them ;)

[Donnie27]

10-20hz is pretty hard to do damage to your ears, in fact the lower your frequency is the more output you need to "do damage". Jet engines, rock concerts, etc.. all that is in the 150-400hz range for the 110-130db+

I should get a vid of 20hz in my truck.. about an inch of door flex lol.

No STEVil, that's not true at all. Highs can damage your hearing but it gives you a warning. Lows at the volumes you're talking about can screw up not only your hearing but even mess up internal organs LOL:ROTF:! Just so there is no misunderstandings here, the amount of volume it takes to blow up a Premier Pro that peaks at about 3000W (not the 1200W peak model) and can do a real 500Watts continuous can F#ck your hearing up very easily!

Most of the decibel levels you're talking about here aren't meant for the human ear or none hearing damage listening levels. Sure it's nice for a competition to see who can crank up the highest SPL or etc.. but for everyday listening it is a WASTE of Hearing, Time, Money, and other things that are more common sense. It's like overclocking, yes we love the LN exploits of Xtreme Systems but who in the hell wants to try that for 24/7. That's why I got rid of those Horn loaded systems that were breaking windows and cracking my sheet rock during short demos with Ear plugs in LOL!:rofl: No, 18Hz for two hours had two guys vomiting! One guy threw up in the back of my Camaro with only two 12" MTX Road Thunders that sold for less than $150 (low bass recording of Creed's "What If")

Jet noise? Too many variables. Type of Jet (Tornado is at least 55% louder than an F-18) location, distance from the Jet, and about 100 other factors, same goes for the Canon I already mentioned as well.

Back to the Original Question? I'd take 4 X 10s" over one 18" 90% of the time but I'd do that simply because I play Bass Guitar. Only the most expensive Large speakers are fast enough to accurately reproduce rapid low licks. I'm talking about thumbed and fingered, not Slap bass.

[EniGmA1987]

Definitely, thats what my problem is. I never experienced an 18 in real life. Lets not even mention subsonics...

Too bad you dont live by me or you could listen to my quad 18s and six 15s. ;) Now that can shake some stuff.

[slim142]

I once asked any SPL events in South FL (Dade, Broward section) and it sucked cuz I thought we were a loud state. I barely got info on one event... I wish I could find somebody with 18. Where I live, I never heard a loud system and to make it even worse, sometimes I think my 12 is the loudest around my city lol

[Donnie27]

I once asked any SPL events in South FL (Dade, Broward section) and it sucked cuz I thought we were a loud state. I barely got info on one event... I wish I could find somebody with 18. Where I live, I never heard a loud system and to make it even worse, sometimes I think my 12 is the loudest around my city lol

They do it in Daytona though LOL! See Steve Meade and his 4 18's?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5vF1I5vYKQ&feature=related

[slim142]

Daytona is not close to where I live. Let me be more specific, either Miami-Dade or South Broward.

Also, everytime I visit south beach I barely hear loud cars. Maybe one with amplified speakers but thats it. Kinda sucks...

[Andrea deluxe]

i have 3 25cm sub in one closed box in the back of my golf mk5

my bass are very low and much articulated


too big sub is not much faster....

[STEvil]

No STEVil, that's not true at all.

Yes, it is.


Highs can damage your hearing but it gives you a warning. Lows at the volumes you're talking about can screw up not only your hearing but even mess up internal organs LOL:ROTF:!

And you think lows cannot give you warnings either? 150db @ 20-40hz is nothing near as bad as 150db @ 800hz+


Just so there is no misunderstandings here, the amount of volume it takes to blow up a Premier Pro that peaks at about 3000W (not the 1200W peak model) and can do a real 500Watts continuous can F#ck your hearing up very easily!

If you used a horn and put your head in the mouth, sure. Otherwise no, it will just sound like crap and blow from clipping, heating, or overexcursion.


Most of the decibel levels you're talking about here aren't meant for the human ear or none hearing damage listening levels. Sure it's nice for a competition to see who can crank up the highest SPL or etc.. but for everyday listening it is a WASTE of Hearing, Time, Money, and other things that are more common sense.

In SPL competitions, yes. Fortunately i'm mostly talking about subsonics and not SPL competitions. Its fine if you dont like your music loud but to tell me that i'm wasting my time and money trying to get decent low end output.. well.. I dont know if you've noticed where you are yet. :shrug:


It's like overclocking, yes we love the LN exploits of Xtreme Systems but who in the hell wants to try that for 24/7.

Who said anything about 24/7? Again, welcome to xtreme systems where we do things big for when we want to have some fun.


That's why I got rid of those Horn loaded systems that were breaking windows and cracking my sheet rock during short demos with Ear plugs in LOL!:rofl:

Your loss :shrug:


No, 18Hz for two hours had two guys vomiting! One guy threw up in the back of my Camaro with only two 12" MTX Road Thunders that sold for less than $150 (low bass recording of Creed's "What If")

Hatchbacks are pretty easy to get loud in, they're somewhat like a pre-made horn. The guy who threw up probably had an inner ear problem.


Jet noise? Too many variables. Type of Jet (Tornado is at least 55% louder than an F-18) location, distance from the Jet, and about 100 other factors, same goes for the Canon I already mentioned as well.

As I said before: Jet engines, rock concerts, etc.. all that is in the 150-400hz range for the 110-130db+. That's damaging territory. Same db's at 10-20hz is just a good massage.


Back to the Original Question? I'd take 4 X 10s" over one 18" 90% of the time but I'd do that simply because I play Bass Guitar. Only the most expensive Large speakers are fast enough to accurately reproduce rapid low licks. I'm talking about thumbed and fingered, not Slap bass.

Transient response rates are a function of motor force and diaphram deflection. 4 10's will have a larger motor surface area to diaphram area/weight but often lack excursion to achieve meaningful output at subsonic levels.

The best option is to pair two 10's or 12's with a single long throw driver.. such as a Maelstrom 21: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/exodus-audio/16874-new-maelstrom-21-a.html but realistically your full range speakers should be able to handle low enough output that you sub can be almost any size.. it just doesnt happen that way a lot though so oh well.



As to Meade, his tahoe is out of commission for a bit as he was rear ended yesterday. Nothing too horrible but the rollpan is done for, air tank fittings cracked, and rear door doesnt close properly..

[slim142]

I would have to agree with Stevil

I mean, I always told my friends (without knowledge, just common sense) that it is 200x harder to go "deaf" with bass than with high volume (loud components).

If we put a guy with blasting techno/house music at loud volume with no subwoofer just amplified components and another playing USAC - Sillicon with 18"s and subsonics as low as 15Hz, Im pretty sure the guy in the techno car will have severe ear damage while the bass guy will most probably barely have one (if any at all).

I been saying this since I got into car audio, people still think by 40 Im going to be deaf, but Im pretty sure their ipods will destroy their ears before Bass does any damage to mines.

[STEvil]

And here is the science behind why... took me a while to remember the correct term so I could find it again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

[Donnie27]

Either 4 Kicker 10" L7's or a single MA Audio HardKore 18".

Going into a 1996 Chevy 2500 extended cab and will be powered by a Lanzar Opti2000D.

Decisions decisions :D


Yes, it is.

Not even close!


And you think lows cannot give you warnings either? 150db @ 20-40hz is nothing near as bad as 150db @ 800hz+

You reading what I wrote or just trying to make a case? It is easier to tell when highs are messing up your hearing because it hurts while bass can do the same without such pain. I'm saying BASS FLUCKS up your hearing not that it does nothing:smile: Maybe I need an edit.


If you used a horn and put your head in the mouth, sure. Otherwise no, it will just sound like crap and blow from clipping, heating, or overexcursion.

There you go again! Total misrepresentation of what I said. I helped a guy with a large enough Den do some horns loaded speakers. Even use software for the size:up: I'd have kept mine if my Den was 24' X 44' LOL!


In SPL competitions, yes. Fortunately i'm mostly talking about subsonics and not SPL competitions. Its fine if you dont like your music loud but to tell me that i'm wasting my time and money trying to get decent low end output.. well.. I dont know if you've noticed where you are yet. :shrug:

No, you aren't talking about decent, as you said, this is Xtreme Systems. I said if you're playing music loud enough to blow them, that amount of VOLUME IS TOO LOUD! I like loud music, I don't like it Loud enough even with a lot of Bass to blow out even my 12" 1200W that can't take half the watts the 3000 watt peak model can take. Now you can twist that any way you like and it changes NOTHING.

Again, I've measured even so called by you easy to blow Pioneer Premeir 10's and or that Backline to register loud and low enough on the test linked. Again, you don't need a frakkin 2000W AMP and 18's to get lows during NORMAL human ear listening levels. These levels will NOT cause any decent sub to blow as you said. You're mixing at least 3 subjects here. Four 10's or one 18".


Who said anything about 24/7? Again, welcome to xtreme systems where we do things big for when we want to have some fun.


Xtreme Computers, not blow out your frakkin hearing loud over kill music Xtreme Speakers LOL. Yes, I do have fun not speeding my hearing loss up, I'm 53 LOL! Again, the louder it gets, the more you HAVE to make louder next time. It's not just addiction but hearing loss as well LOL!

http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2009/03/can-you-hear-this-hearing-test/

I did! I said prolonged listening to music at the volumes you're talking about will damage your hearing. You are the one talking about playing music loud enough to blow up speakers seemingly without consequences.


Your loss :shrug:

No, not loss but the hearing I saved. A far as Subsonics go, VOLUME is the only thing I don't get after moving to something more sensible. Too much Subsonic & Infrasonic and a good thing becomes a bad thing!


Hatchbacks are pretty easy to get loud in, they're somewhat like a pre-made horn. The guy who threw up probably had an inner ear problem.

Yeah, he had a problem all right! He has great balance and the inner ear problem was man made LOL!

http://www.lowertheboom.org/trice/infrasound.htm

Infrasonic vibrations, though harmful, can be pleasantly stimulating in mild levels. The effects of brief, mild exposure can give a feeling of invigoration for hours. While a person may FEEL invigorated and euphoric, his body is being subjected to an elevated heart rate, elevated blood pressure, a release of endorphins, and the "fight or flight" adrenaline response. Feeling the effects of high-intensity/low-frequency sound can actually become an addiction, partially due to the release of endorphins in the body.

Studies show the different ways in which infrasound affects the human body. As infrasound pitches, or cycles per second, decrease, deadly effects on the body increase. Infrasound disrupts the normal functioning of the middle and inner ear, leading to nausea, imbalance, impaired equilibrium, immobilization, and disorientation. Exposure to even mild doses of infrasound can lead to illness. Increased intensities of infrasound can result in death.
These are a few examples of low frequency (below 500 Hz) and infrasound (below 20 Hz.) levels and their effects:



As I said before: Jet engines, rock concerts, etc.. all that is in the 150-400hz range for the 110-130db+. That's damaging territory. Same db's at 10-20hz is just a good massage.

I didn't say it didn't or wasn't!


Transient response rates are a function of motor force and diaphram deflection. 4 10's will have a larger motor surface area to diaphram area/weight but often lack excursion to achieve meaningful output at subsonic levels.

I know LOL, that's why I picked four 10's over one 18". Xtreme Systems? You need to see what my computer is connected LOL! I'd love for anyone to hear it and say they need more. Then I'd know if they already had hearing loss and could make due with a hearing aid.


The best option is to pair two 10's or 12's with a single long throw driver.. such as a Maelstrom 21: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/exodus-audio/16874-new-maelstrom-21-a.html but realistically your full range speakers should be able to handle low enough output that you sub can be almost any size.. it just doesnt happen that way a lot though so oh well.

Throw enough money there and you can do anything LOL! The OQ was four 10's or one 18 though. I easily mix two Dayton HF 12's and one EV-18" and I'm not a believer in One Full Range at all. Simply put, one drivers isn't fast enough to reproduce enough sounds. That's why I love 3 way speakers and would prefer Powered Crossovers or etc.........


As to Meade, his tahoe is out of commission for a bit as he was rear ended yesterday. Nothing too horrible but the rollpan is done for, air tank fittings cracked, and rear door doesnt close properly..

That's too bad!

[Donnie27]

i have 3 25cm sub in one closed box in the back of my golf mk5

my bass are very low and much articulated


too big sub is not much faster....

Both my Optimus Mach ones and Fisher 9Vs are sealed, I use them for critcal listening but I use the other DIYers for louder music. Folks who don't think sealed speakers can hit the lows might not have heard them doing their thing.

It is hard to believe Radio Shack one sold very good speakers.

http://cgi.ebay.com/REALISTIC-MACH-1-ONE-FLOOR-SPEAKERS-PART-OUT-AS-IS-LOT_W0QQitemZ250586071867QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSpeake rs_Subwoofers?hash=item3a5818033b

I've restored two sets and even rebuilt the cabs for a complete rebuild of another set. Sealed means you can get away with a smaller cabinet.

[STEvil]

I read about 2 of your replies donnie, then I skipped all the rest. You dont have very good reading comprehension and i'm tired of it.

[Donnie27]

I read about 2 of your replies donnie, then I skipped all the rest. You dont have very good reading comprehension and i'm tired of it.

I don't think you have very good reading comprehension either but had enough tact not to mention it LOL!

[STEvil]

For anyone interested here's a video of the 18's in action on about 1800w RMS total: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14vUWctsYl0

Crappy cell phone video and its short, does no justice to what the system is capable of. There's a few others uploaded too but they arent worth mentioning really.

Remember this what they can do, not what they are pushed to 100% of the time, though I guess by the video it might be hard to tell anyways lol :/

[Donnie27]

For anyone interested here's a video of the 18's in action on about 1800w RMS total: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14vUWctsYl0

Crappy cell phone video and its short, does no justice to what the system is capable of. There's a few others uploaded too but they arent worth mentioning really.

Remember this what they can do, not what they are pushed to 100% of the time, though I guess by the video it might be hard to tell anyways lol :/

Holy Shat!!!:rofl: Sweet!

[STEvil]

Some more fun stuff...

Testing excursion limits. Video is at 1/2 speed. Skip to 3:00+ for the best of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqXf3ErKrro
My cab is moving.. and the back wall seems to have broken loose. Should dynamat it I guess. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlcHszD-dMM
Windshield bouncing. Everyone's got one of these though ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT1P-EmoveI

[Donnie27]

Some more fun stuff...

Testing excursion limits. Video is at 1/2 speed. Skip to 3:00+ for the best of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqXf3ErKrro
My cab is moving.. and the back wall seems to have broken loose. Should dynamat it I guess. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlcHszD-dMM
Windshield bouncing. Everyone's got one of these though ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT1P-EmoveI

You Rock:up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awDzd_z6L90&feature=related

The last quarter of this one sounds great in my DT-770's:D Even using Mobo sound and Ubuntu rig I just finished.

[Hell Hound]

2x JBL W15GTi Mk2 @ 30hz :up:

[Donnie27]

2x JBL W15GTi Mk2 @ 30hz :up:

I've never heard one but why would you say 30Hz? Is that where it's crossed over?


* Sensitivity: 92 dB
* RMS Power Range : 800 Watts
* Peak Power Handling: 5000 Watts
* Impedance: Dual 6 Ohm
* Low Frequency response: 16 Hz
* High Frequency Response: 1000 Hz
* Diameter: 15 Inch

[Hell Hound]

I like 30-40 under 20 sounds a little muddy to me,I like crisp clean bass,and that truck needs damping that rattle and clank is just nasty.Not you STEvil that was just for testing right.STEvil get a GMC or Bronco and your 18's will kill all :yepp:

[Donnie27]

I like 30-40 under 20 sounds a little muddy to me,I like crisp clean bass,and that truck needs damping that rattle and clank is just nasty.Not you STEvil that was just for testing right.STEvil get a GMC or Bronco and your 18's will kill all :yepp:

SO crossed over at 30Hz? Yes, I had that low end talk with Stevil and know exactly where 30Hz is. I play Bass Guitar and 30Hz is the lowest note on my B String. For none Bass Players that's the Open Note on the fat top string of a 5 string bass.

Newer Music is recorded in Freqs lower than 30Hz BTW!

[STEvil]

My box peaks at 37hz. Termlab tested to 143.8db so far. The huge port and distance from the roof makes it act like a 6th order bandpass somewhat though and I get very flat response all the way from 15hz to 45hz..

Truck is a chevy 2500.. GMC's are just Chevy's with cheaper parts ;)

[Donnie27]

My box peaks at 37hz. Termlab tested to 143.8db so far. The huge port and distance from the roof makes it act like a 6th order bandpass somewhat though and I get very flat response all the way from 15hz to 45hz..

Truck is a chevy 2500.. GMC's are just Chevy's with cheaper parts ;)

I thought Chevys were GMC's with Cheaper parts?:D

http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=32