View Full Version : Tubing and clouding, Ongoing mini test!
Brodholm
06-04-2009, 01:44 PM
Hello. I know there have been a lot of discussion over clear tubing and clouding. So I thought I'd make a little "test" to see what happens to the tubing after a while. I know some have come to think that the PT-nuke makes tubing cloud. We will just have to wait and see.
So basically what i did was to take 3 small pieces of tubing and put them in 3 sterilized jars. Three different jars. One with PT-PHN and one with only distilled and finally a jar with a silver chain and distilled water. The distilled is not a good option because of Algae and stuff. But I just wanted to add it to see what it does to the tubing as some kind of baseline.
And when I say distilled water I mean deionized water (so there is no confusion).
http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv348/Brodholm/tubing.jpg
3 Small pieces of tygon B44-4X tubing.
The tubing was put in a sterilized container and shaken with distilled water to ensure that they where clean (tubing is also new from sidewinders and came in a plastic bag)
http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv348/Brodholm/DSC_2595.jpg
This is how the jars look like. Its just standard glass jars that I have cleaned and sterilized with boiling water.
http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv348/Brodholm/sterilizeddoninge.jpg
I just had boiling water in the jars. (It was really hard to pour out the water with them being about 90 degrees celcius). Not the best but good enough. There may be some junk left in some corner or something. But It should be clean do to the high heat.
http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv348/Brodholm/DSC_2597.jpg
I also cleaned the silver chain and poured boiling water over it an let it be there for 1-2 minutes.
http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv348/Brodholm/DSC_2598.jpg
Done, everything got sealed with the lids.
The jar with the "ABBA" lid have distilled water + PT_Nuke -PHN (http://www.petrastechshop.com/peptpcobi1.html) (half a drop, maybe to strong).
The jar with the "ICA" lid is just distilled water.
The jar with the "Felix" lid have a silver chain and distilled water.
http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv348/Brodholm/DSC_2600.jpg
And finally I put the jars on a radiator (no not a "radiator" that you use in computers) so it have a high temperature. I would guess it keeps a temperature of 30-40 degrees.
Thoughts
I know that the conditions are not a 100% accurate but it should be similar. I try to shake around the jars when I walk by them. So the water will move in the tubing. I know this will not get super accurate but it should be quite good. And it should be consistent as all the jars will keep the same temp! :up: (the values may fluctuate some degrees).
Note that I did this today. So if there is anything in my method you think I should change please say so now :) And also I will not have results until a few weeks at least!
If you where to guess how long will I take for each to cloud?! Myself I really don't have a clue but ill check it from day to day without opening the lids to ensure that no other stuff gets in the jar.
Martin and skinnee watch out! :rofl:
Brad8988
06-04-2009, 01:52 PM
Be interested results as PT nuke clouded mine to hell but i may have added alittle too much.
Brodholm
06-04-2009, 01:55 PM
Be interested results as PT nuke clouded mine to hell but i may have added alittle too much.
Yeah, at least it seems like people that use distiled + silver don't get clouding? Not as much at least. Or maybe its me that haven't looked good enough.
Isn't a recommended dosage 1 drop per liter of pt-nuke?
Stealth42o
06-04-2009, 01:56 PM
Martin and skinnee watch out! :rofl:
Quite a brilliant idea, will look forward to the results. :up:
millertime359
06-04-2009, 01:57 PM
Great idea, would be cool if you had some Feser 1 to add to the test, be interesting to see what the results are. How long will you let the jars sit for?
Brodholm
06-04-2009, 02:05 PM
Don't know exactly. But when it gets cloudy I will take it out and have a look. Take some pictures. I see no point in taking them out unless they aren't cloudy. But after a month or so I may have a look and take some pictures. Haven't decided yet :P
zanzabar
06-04-2009, 02:25 PM
i have blue primochil pro lrt and it dosnt look clouded, but i will see if there is platicizer on the tubes when i redo my loop next week
millertime359
06-04-2009, 03:57 PM
I know my Tygon and res clouded during the first week, I am pretty certain it was the die I used seeing it was settling in the bottle of PC ICE when I only pour half the bottle of die in. and also when I was flushing the system with distilled water, the Tygon ad res were still UV reactive. Thank god i had ordered 10 feet of tygon, had plenty to re run my loop.
Petra
06-04-2009, 04:47 PM
A few notes:
In general, I haven't really had issues with the Tygon B-44 series of tubing (B-44-3, in specific) clouding. R-3603, on the on the other hand, I've had cloud all to hell with just distilled (especially if a system is just let to sit... actually had that happen in a test loop comprised of B-44-3, with a short section of R-3603 in it... the 3603 section clouded while the B-44-3 didn't).
The other thing I noticed while submerging tubing like that (using Masterkleer) was that all of the test pieces became a foggy/milky color after a period of time due to what I assumed was water absorption. Leaving the test sections out to air dry for a while (may have been a day or so) resulted in them clearing back up. That little submersion test was done over the course of a few months with distilled, G11 (10%), G12 (10%), and HydrX (10%)... the control was fine, the G11 piece had a slight blue tinge to it but was clear, the G12 piece was dyed UV hot pink but clear, and the HydrX piece was just kinda nasty (grimy/filmy and had a but of a brown tinge). I'll edit this post if I can find a photo...
The tubing formulation and radiator cleaning probably have more to do with clouding than coolant additives. Heck, the display system in our office has been going without a coolant change for over two years now without a coolant change and the tubing (Masterkleer) is still quite clear... It's running a 10% G11 mix that has had insane amounts of various different dyes and biocides added to it over the years (both the Nuke Cu and the Nuke PHN are in there at concentrations that are way above anything that anyone should be using).
BTW, the regular Copper sulfate nuke (the blue stuff) has a recommended mix ratio of 1-2 drops per liter of coolant. The nuke PHN (clear), on the other hand, has a recommended mix ratio of 4 drops per liter.
*edit* Found one of the instances where I posted the photo and stuff previously: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2362844&postcount=2
Brodholm
06-05-2009, 12:54 AM
Good info, Then it was not such a overdose. I used one drop of PHN in about 1dl of water. Thats about twice what is recommended then. And I agree that not cleaning your loop is probably one of the main reasons why it clouds. I think I will be running just straight distilled in the loop for some hours and then do the same thing twice. Before I go with the real water. Just to flush out everything that i didn't get when cleaning the components.
Russ_64
06-05-2009, 01:01 AM
Feser 1 (Green) clouded my Clearflex 60 but has not clouded my XSPC (MasterKleer?) tubing, just changing to Coolaboratory Blue (pre-mix) - so far (week) it's okay.
WhiteFireDragon
06-05-2009, 01:03 AM
i sort of tried this before. i boiled water and poured it into a container with masterkleer tubing in it. after a few hours of letting it sit in the hot water, i was permanently clouded. its like i cooked it or something, similar to how when you cook egg whites, it's becomes clouded and no so clear anymore :D
Russ_64
06-05-2009, 01:08 AM
I think most tubing is only rated for Max 60c .................
Brodholm
06-05-2009, 01:21 AM
This tubing was not boiled. The where shaken in distilled water only. I'm seeing signs of the pt-nuke sample getting more white. The silver is still clear. I may redo this test with proper amount of pt and try both pt nuke variants and take the jars to the dishwasher first. I will leave all the samples until only one remains clear.
Tygon r3603 have a maximum recommended usage temp of 74C. Same goes for B44-4X.
SoulsCollective
06-05-2009, 01:34 AM
B-44-4X was not the best to test if you want to show clouding. I've never had that stuff cloud up on me, as opposed to R3603, which went horrible after only a few weeks.
Brodholm
06-05-2009, 01:50 AM
B-44-4X was not the best to test if you want to show clouding. I've never had that stuff cloud up on me, as opposed to R3603, which went horrible after only a few weeks.
Yeah, I know. But that was all i had :\ And some :banana::banana::banana::banana:ty xspc tubing that looks cloudy from the start :)
Always good to see another test. The long term tests can be a problem, people forget about them. Any chance of a photo of the three jars, say, once a week.
SoulsCollective
06-05-2009, 01:57 AM
Yeah, I know. But that was all i had :\ And some :banana::banana::banana::banana:ty xspc tubing that looks cloudy from the start :)Petra, send the man a foot of 3603 so we can all look at the pretty clouds.
Professor Fitz: Well, the cumulonimbus formations about which you speak that look like...
Howard Hughes: Giant breasts full of milk. I want clouds, damn it.
Professor Fitz: Yes, clouds that look like giant breasts full of milk, cannot exactly be guaranteed for any particular occasion. So you might have to... to wait.
Howard Hughes: Then we'll wait. Look, whatever they pay you at UCLA I'm doubling it, all right? You work for me now. Find some clouds. Find some clouds! Find me some clouds!
andressergio
06-05-2009, 07:35 AM
B-44-4X was not the best to test if you want to show clouding. I've never had that stuff cloud up on me, as opposed to R3603, which went horrible after only a few weeks.
my R3603 went cloudy after 2 weeks what are you using now souls ?
Cheers
Sergio
Baleful
06-05-2009, 07:46 AM
3603 still clouds even without using PTNuke, just not as bad or fast. For some reason, PTNuke seems to accelerate the process.
kinghong1970
06-05-2009, 08:04 AM
now only if iPhone has an app for this... :D (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=225847)
SoulsCollective
06-05-2009, 08:46 AM
my R3603 went cloudy after 2 weeks what are you using now souls ?
Currently? R-3400, it's the reflective opaque black stuff. For clear tubing in client builds, however, the weapon of choice is the stuff being tested here - B-44-4X (Tygon "Food and dairy" tubing). Slightly less flexible and more expensive than R-3603, but worth it in my book.
I've also heard good things about the new Tygon 2001 "Plasticizer free" tubing (AE300038), but I've never had a chance to use it myself.
bluehaze
06-05-2009, 12:11 PM
3603 clouds real quick. Switched to b44-4x and it's going good with no clouding.
moiraesfate
06-05-2009, 01:03 PM
Hmm, I'd be interested to see the results with different kinds of dyes (like feser one) and different types of tubing, too.
If you ever have the time.
This will be quite an interesting experiment.
MrToad
06-05-2009, 01:06 PM
I use silver tygon now, because every cloud has a silver lining :D
Just an observation but in daily use only the inside of the tubing is in direct contact with the fluid. Maybe filling the pieces with fluid and cap the ends will give a more accurate result. :shrug:
Brodholm
06-05-2009, 04:21 PM
Just an observation but in daily use only the inside of the tubing is in direct contact with the fluid. Maybe filling the pieces with fluid and cap the ends will give a more accurate result. :shrug:
What do you mean?
I will have to make a better test. Take off the labeles so i can do pictures without ruining the sealed jars. And I will take them to the dishwasher. Because as it seems now all the tubing got cloudy :\
The one with pt-nuke first then destilled and silver close after. So i think that there was some stuff in there :)
Petra
06-05-2009, 04:31 PM
Did you leave them out for a day or so to verify that the clouding wasn't just water absorption or something similar (like what I had noticed)?
Eddie3dfx
06-05-2009, 04:40 PM
Distilled was great for 2 months until i poured pentosin (red kind) in it. It became cloudy instantly.
Brodholm
06-05-2009, 04:42 PM
Did you leave them out for a day or so to verify that the clouding wasn't just water absorption or something similar (like what I had noticed)?
No, I will do that. But this concludes nothing. I need to make sure that the jars are completely sterilized. I will make a new test soon.
bluehaze
06-05-2009, 05:01 PM
Distilled was great for 2 months until i poured pentosin (red kind) in it. It became cloudy instantly.
Thats what I use the red pentosin and no clouding at all with b44, did you have any other additive with the distilled?
Brodholm
06-07-2009, 08:32 AM
Leaving the test sections out to air dry for a while (may have been a day or so) resulted in them clearing back up.[/url]
They all clouded after 2 days. And that was because of water absorption. Leaving them to dry in the sun made them clear. At first they get clear in the ends and then they get totally clear. I guess that when the tubing gets water exposed to the sides you cut they absorb water and get "cloudy" or wet.
To check this for real I think you need a loop and run the water inside the tubing and not around it.
So this test was a complete FAIL :mad:
It cleared up something for me at least, questioning my memory/imagination as I look at the ends of some old, disgusting tube of an off brown colour thinking 'didn't this used to be old, disgusting and off white ?'. Now I know, water absorption, heh, so I'm not going senile after all. Now where was I ? ;)
NaeKuh
06-07-2009, 09:57 AM
im wondering if the water abrasing the sidewall and working on the plastacizer will do anything in timeline.
But i do remember one thing, clouding gets worse as you drain the system and fill it back up.
im wondering if the water abrasing the sidewall and working on the plastacizer will do anything in timeline.
But i do remember one thing, clouding gets worse as you drain the system and fill it back up.
Interesting, letting the water out lets a whole new batch of fresh air in, not to mention a good dose of fresh, dissolved, highly reactive, oxygen in the new fluid of choice.
I'm just wondering about the sometimes conflicting reports, could a full vs a half full res be part of the cause ?
Edit1:
Absorption: does this mean the the outer walls are a different composition to the inner ?
Edit2:
Just been dancing with your sig, so cute :)
Petra
06-07-2009, 10:53 AM
But i do remember one thing, clouding gets worse as you drain the system and fill it back up.
Interesting... I've experienced fewer issues with clouding after a loop has been drained and the tubing cleaned. The R-3603 in my test system seems to cloud up really bad once, then not really have an issue after I clean it (tubing brush & warm water, occasionally a mild soap).
3Z3VH
06-08-2009, 08:57 AM
He didn't say anything about cleaning, just draining and filling...
Which makes sense, because if you drain it, all the deposits you had before stay, and you only add more liquid that has more minerals, PTNuke, and junk in it.
Pure. Distilled. Water.
Clean your loop well, use pure distilled (NOT FILTERED) water, and avoid additives if you can. If you must use additives, use as little as possible. If/When you have to top off your loop, use ONLY distilled, no additive mixture.
SoulsCollective
06-08-2009, 09:06 AM
Pure. Distilled. Water.
Clean your loop well, use pure distilled (NOT FILTERED) water, and avoid additives if you can. If you must use additives, use as little as possible. If/When you have to top off your loop, use ONLY distilled, no additive mixture.Careful, you need something in there to avoid bacterial/algae growth. I recommend killcoils/other source of silver, or, for the cheaper alternative, common household bleach (although make sure it actually is just bleach (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205137)).
But otherwise I'm completely with you - down with dyes.
3Z3VH
06-08-2009, 09:36 AM
I use Iodine. In 8 months, my R3603 has not clouded.
Brodholm
06-08-2009, 10:00 AM
Iodine?
"Iodine and its compounds are primarily used in medicine, photography, and dyes. Although it is rare in the solar system and Earth's crust, the iodides are very soluble in water, and the element is concentrated in seawater. This mechanism helps to explain how the element came to be required in trace amounts by all animals and some plants, being the heaviest element commonly used by living organisms (only tungsten, used in enzymes by a few bacteria, is heavier)."
Is this some liquid you put in the water or what?
Petra
06-08-2009, 10:21 AM
Pure. Distilled. Water.
Clean your loop well, use pure distilled (NOT FILTERED) water, and avoid additives if you can. If you must use additives, use as little as possible. If/When you have to top off your loop, use ONLY distilled, no additive mixture.
I use Iodine. In 8 months, my R3603 has not clouded.
Okay... that still doesn't address the instances of clouding which have occurred with R-3603 in clean systems running only distilled water. Granted, the film can be cleaned off and it doesn't really seem to come back as strongly, but that's beside the point.
Brodholm: look up tincture of iodine (more specifically providone iodine).
3Z3VH
06-08-2009, 12:49 PM
I still have not heard anyone say they got R3603 clouding running only distilled, every report I have read on these forums of people who's R3603 clouded said they used PTNuke. Outside of these forums, the only reports I have heard of clouding WITHOUT PTNuke were due to galvanic corrosion, or poor rinsing of the loop when the components were purchased.
Sadasius
06-11-2009, 03:33 PM
I still have not heard anyone say they got R3603 clouding running only distilled, every report I have read on these forums of people who's R3603 clouded said they used PTNuke. Outside of these forums, the only reports I have heard of clouding WITHOUT PTNuke were due to galvanic corrosion, or poor rinsing of the loop when the components were purchased.
I am starting to think it is not the coolant or the tubing but the actual cleanliness of the system itself. People who have reported a long while before clouding or has not clouded have actually rinsed out their rads really well and scrubbed their blocks clean before installation. Now I will be honest in saying that all I do is a half-ass'd rinse job and is probably the reason why the tubes are clouding up.
@Brodholm perhaps rinse out a rad and use that water with a piece of tubing and see if that has some effect. I think rads are probably the biggest culprit.
Snyxxx
06-11-2009, 03:52 PM
I still have not heard anyone say they got R3603 clouding running only distilled, every report I have read on these forums of people who's R3603 clouded said they used PTNuke. Outside of these forums, the only reports I have heard of clouding WITHOUT PTNuke were due to galvanic corrosion, or poor rinsing of the loop when the components were purchased.
I only use plain distilled and nothing else, 3603 clouded within days. I am a cleaning nut and it did not help.
I am starting to think it is not the coolant or the tubing but the actual cleanliness of the system itself. People who have reported a long while before clouding or has not clouded have actually rinsed out their rads really well and scrubbed their blocks clean before installation. Now I will be honest in saying that all I do is a half-ass'd rinse job and is probably the reason why the tubes are clouding up.
@Brodholm perhaps rinse out a rad and use that water with a piece of tubing and see if that has some effect. I think rads are probably the biggest culprit.
The U-shaped tubing that would connect the inlet to the outlet for a good radiator clean would cloud as well. Even after the water came out clean (after a bazillion flushes) I would keep a fresh U-shaped piece of 3603 to keep the clean water inside and avoid air contamination. It clouded as well.
mongoled
01-07-2010, 09:39 AM
Looks like there is no definitive answer to this one!
Once my Apogee XT gets here, I will be using just distilled water and silver in the loop, with my old recently cleaned tubing.
Then arnd a week later the rest of the stuff I ordered should be here, this will be a new PA120.3 and Tygon 3603 tubing.
Will again fill with distilled water and silver in the loop.
I will post my results