Low End Radiators for just 40 Bucks from Feser ?! Yes ! :)

[bundymania]

First pics and specs of early samples:



Dual- und Triple Version

incl. Silikon Pads and Screws

Slim Rads, 28 mm

ca. 34 Euro for the Triple Version


http://www.abload.de/img/tfc-favourflat-15vok.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/tfc-favourflat-27v97.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/tfc-favourflat-3fucg.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/tfc-favourflat-4royn.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/tfc-favourflat-51tkn.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/tfc-favourflat-double25qt0.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/tfc-favourflat-6xq1z.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/tfc-favourflat-doubleoqla.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/tfc-favourflat-triple-dqu0.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/tfc-favourflat-tripledo78.jpg

[Kibbler]

Looks like a BI Pro. Always nice to have more options I suppose :up:

(direct flash is really bad for product photography...tends to exaggerate surface imperfections)

[LOUISSSSS]

damn how do u get this kind of info???

interested to see how this plays out but probably wont need any radiators for a while, got 2 triples in my case already

[bundymania]

damn how do u get this kind of info???


I get those Pics and Infos directly from the source, coz i´m in good contact with some watercooling companies :)

You might know my reviews, which i release worldwide in the biggest forums.

[Mech0z]

What fpi ?

[LOUISSSSS]

I get those Pics and Infos directly from the source, coz i´m in good contact with some watercooling companies :)

You might know my reviews, which i release worldwide in the biggest forums.

oh haha i'm new to the WC scene and new to XS here, nice to meet you, where can i find your reviews? i'd love to take a look

[bundymania]

@Louisssss: some of my reviews - use google translator pls :)
@Mech0Z: dunno yet, i´ll ask feser.

Alphacool HF 38 Cape Cyclone 150 Ausgleichsbehälter (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=607948)

Alphacool Yellowstone, OCZ Hydroflow, Ybris Eclipse, EK Supreme + LT, HK 3.0, Inno (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=549569)

Ausgleichsbehälter der ital. Firma TECNOFRONT (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=475543)

Danger Den CPX-1 12V Pumpe (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=527243)

EK-FC4870 CF - Nickel (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=514828)

EK Supreme <-> Ybris Cooling A.C.S. Black Pearl Cromo (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=462979)

GMC R2 Toast Design Gehäuse (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=559824)

Laing Aufsatz Ausgleichsbehälter (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=487628)

Mainboardkühlersets von Anfi-tec, MIPS und EK Waterblocks (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=562393)

neue Schlauchsorten (Ultraglow u.a.) im Vergleich (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=481382)

S1366 CPU Kühler Roundup - 9 Modelle im Test (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=611143)

Schläuche von FESER ! (13/10 & 19/13) (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=476992)

Sanso 12V PDH 054 <-> Laing DDC-1 mit OC Labs Deckel (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=478948)

Tecnofront Airbox (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=498509)

TFC Monsta + 4 weitere Radiatoren (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=566914)

TFC X-Changer 480 Quad Radi <-> Mora 2 Pro (http://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/showthread.php?t=510774)*

[Zehnsucht]

In my opinion, it's very counter-productive to claim to be a tester, and at the same time have so good connections with one company that it allows you to post product-images before they are released to hype them. In my eyes, all tests you do involving fesser products will be slightly biased. This may or may not be true, but that is how I feel about it.

[Waterlogged]

In my opinion, it's very counter-productive to claim to be a tester, and at the same time have so good connections with one company that it allows you to post product-images before they are released to hype them. In my eyes, all tests you do involving fesser products will be slightly biased. This may or may not be true, but that is how I feel about it.

Your being far to polite in your assessment, call it what it really is.;):p:

[tool_462]

All review sites have "good enough connections with companies" to get stuff pre-release to do reviews on...its somewhat unavoidable unless you want everybody to wait till release day to buy their own and wait for "unbiased" forum publications ;)

[bundymania]

@Zehnsucht: i´m in contact with most of the watercooling companies, not just feser. i´m in the h20 scene since 8 years now :) compare my results (especially feser products) with others and you'll see that they are very similar. Personally, I have no interest in any brand to be preferred! I post the things I get from the companies.

@tool:462: yeah, right - normal procedure ! :)

[tool_462]

I'm probably just in your boat bundy because I write reviews for a small-ish/upcoming site and a few companies like sending me stuff ahead of time, which I show no preference for. I've already told them that if the product sucks I'll say it sucks :up:

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

Ill stack these beotches with the monsta radiator...whoo hoo....why not.

[LOUISSSSS]

uh.. you did NOT need to post every one of your reviews lol... page hits ++?

[Mech0z]

uh.. you did NOT need to post every one of your reviews lol... page hits ++?

Well I found a couple of interesting product reviews, so it was useful to me

btw http://translate.google.dk/translate_t# ftw my german sucks

[bundymania]

@Tool_462: yep, it´s ok and the right way. There are always people who question the results of reviews and that Feser particularly here in XS do not have only friends, is well known and ok :)
In countres like italy, i was flamed, coz "their" Ybris CPU Waterblock is not Nr. 1 in my last test, so many guys wants to see their "own" products in front, which is made where
they live. There is always something about Patriotism in those comments ;)

[Zehnsucht]

i´m in contact with most of the watercooling companies, not just feser. i´m in the h20 scene since 8 years now :) compare my results (especially feser products) with others and you'll see that they are very similar. Personally, I have no interest in any brand to be preferred! I post the things I get from the companies.


While I do not object to posting new products per se, it is the fact that you'll probably also test them that I dislike.
How is your initial post different from:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/Forums/showthread.php?t=200683
http://www.xtremesystems.org/Forums/showthread.php?t=212241

There are more from other vendors, I just didn't manage to search so extensively.

These are posts made to create a hype around new and unreleased products. It's kind of free PR posting it in this forum.

It would have been a completely different matter if you had actually tested it, but now it just looks like PR.

Fesser shouldn't be using you for posting upcoming products, they should make an account by themselves. Because, as I said earlier, it hurts your creditability.

[bundymania]

i post (teaser) pictures from most new products i get for tests from all the companies, but not so often here in XS, because the watercooling picture thread is for complete rigs only :)

just check some pictures threads at huge german forums, and you understand, what i mean :)

http://forum.effizienzgurus.de/f23/wasserkuehlung-bildergalerie-t197-66.html

[*|T2D|*PopovS]

It would have been a completely different matter if you had actually tested it, but now it just looks like PR.



Interesting point of view....

I'm always welcome to see prototypes and new products. :up: If test are good it is just a bonus.

[systemviper]

hey nice reviews, plus in this biz it's kinda tough to get freebies without having a relationship,
but i can still see some people being straight up with the reviews :up: nice work!

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

mmmm cheap chinese made radiators with "made in germany" stickers - dont ya love it folks!?

[mhw100]

mmmm cheap chinese made radiators with "made in germany" stickers - dont ya love it folks!?

I think the way Feser gets away with that is they paint them in Germany even though they're made in China. A common deception.

[kinghong1970]

really?

that's a major violation...

if it is assembled in xyz
finished in a different country, it should clearly state so...

iirc the fines are HEFTY per violation...

garments used to be made in russia/china/vietnam and gets imported under Korean country of origin... the companies that do get busted... gets blacklisted by customs and going to pretty much go through hell to import again...

[Mech0z]

really?

that's a major violation...

if it is assembled in xyz
finished in a different country, it should clearly state so...

iirc the fines are HEFTY per violation...

garments used to be made in russia/china/vietnam and gets imported under Korean country of origin... the companies that do get busted... gets blacklisted by customs and going to pretty much go through hell to import again...

Well maybe the drawings are "Made in Germany" ? :p:

[naokaji]

Cheap low end and WC just does not go together, sorry, but I predict very poor results for those rads.

[faster3200]

Cheap low end and WC just does not go together, sorry, but I predict very poor results for those rads.

IDK, the Swiftech rads are cheap but they perform well. This looks similar to that design. If the pricing bundy posted is correct for the US it should be a competitor or at least an interesting option. I still would rather support Swiftech than Feser though.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

swifty-34mm thick > feser-28mm thick

[faster3200]

swifty-34mm thick > feser-28mm thick

Wow, how did I miss that. So this rad seems much less interesting now.

[bentleya]

Thickness dos'nt mean much, and whats your problem SNiiPE_DoGG?

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

my problem? I'm just pointing out facts about feser.... sorry if it bugs you

these should destroy BI GTS rads which have far too tight fin spacing but they arent in the same bracket as swiftech.

[*|T2D|*PopovS]

Actually with economy slow down it is cheaper to make them in Europe.

[kinghong1970]

Actually with economy slow down it is cheaper to make them in Europe.

you're kidding, right?

[*|T2D|*PopovS]

you're kidding, right?

Shockingly no. Industrial sector in Europe like auto on North America...

[_G_]

Thickness dos'nt mean much,

I know theres a joke in there somewhere :p:

*waits for DB to post*

[kinghong1970]

Shockingly no. Industrial sector in Europe like auto on North America...

yea but labor in shanghai suburb factories was around $100~150 a month...

just production cost alone... it's tough to beat.
maybe in eastern EU nations? romania? bulgaria?

still...

[silverphoenix]

these should destroy BI GTS rads which have far too tight fin spacing but they arent in the same bracket as swiftech.

It probably beats it with med-low spd fans, according to HESmelaugh's test and that one french test the BI GTS pulls ahead with fans that run 2k rpms.

[shazza]

Why is everyone so quick to criticize around here these days?

It seems all bundymania is doing is letting us in on a product that's coming out. I don't see where he's said, "You MUST buy this," or "This is the best product ever."

If we jump all over people who post new product info, the logical conclusion is people will not post about new products here.

It's logical that someone posting info about a company's product probably has close connections with that company (and probably others). All I want from a review/reviewer is the disclosure that they have received a product for testing from Company X,Y, or Z. You can check history and compare to other reviews until you develop a level of comfort with any one reviewer.

Just my 2 cents.

[kinghong1970]

/snip....


AMEN!

it's a beautiful day outside... at least it is in NYC...
we all need to cool off a bit...

nothing a couple of beers won't fix...

cheers!

[sirheck]

Agreed Shazza, No need to jump the gun.
But some do it anyway.

[alacheesu]

I agree with the ~2000lbs of furry animals that have posted.

[sirheck]

I agree with the ~2000lbs of furry animals that have posted.

:D
Yeah thats one mean momma polar bear and a mean silverback.

[kinghong1970]

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[eth0s]

@Bundymania: Can we expect to see some real test results soon? A good place to start would be this new Feser 28mm rad v. HW Labs GTS 25mm rad v. Swiftech MCR 34mm rad. Or for that matter, I am still waiting for somebody to do a real head to head comparison of Feser 480 v. XSPC RX 480. I can't find any review of that matchup, anywhere, in English, German, Spanish, Russian, French, or even Esperanto, nothing, nein, nada, nul, rien, (i don't actually know the Esperanto word for "nothing"). Look, I may not be very smart, but I know how to use Google. I am beginning to think that maybe manufacturers like Feser, XSPC and TC tell the guys that get free stuff from these same manufacturers to never run these head to head tests, hmm? Maybe they said we will only give you free stuff if you don't compare us to the other big boys on the block? I may be a conspiracy nut, but that doesn't mean there isn't collusion between the companies that dominate the market.

[shazza]

@alacheesu - Got a good laugh at the furry animal reference :rofl:


eth0s says:
Look, I may not be very smart, but I know how to use Google. I am beginning to think that maybe manufacturers like Feser, XSPC and TC tell the guys that get free stuff from these same manufacturers to never run these head to head tests, hmm? Maybe they said we will only give you free stuff if you don't compare us to the other big boys on the block? I may be a conspiracy nut, but that doesn't mean there isn't collusion between the companies that dominate the market.

There are plenty of reviewers around who have tested Feser, XSPC, TC and other rads head to head. Some, if not many, of these folks do the testing as a service to the community (and because they may have a screw or two loose that makes them enjoy repeating tests and carefully controlling conditions - it can't be what most of us would consider fun :) ). Sometimes they get products to test from retail stores, from the manufacturer, or from regular users. I imagine they also spend a fair amount of their own money to get products. There just aren't a lot of 480 rads floating around, so I imagine that's the primary reason we haven't seen lots of head to heads - and the quads are fairly new as well. I'm willing to compare performance of triple rads and make my own assumptions about how the big brothers will compare.

(Guess I'm up to 4 cents worth of posts in this thread now.)

[skinnee]

480 tests are planned...just a matter of when I can get to them and if certain companies would like to participate.

I can only speak for myself on this, but no company will dictate the tests I run as part of my public reviews. Sure, prototype testing happens a lot and there is data that is never seen by the public. But when I set out to do a round-up/comparison, it is me testing, writing reviews and releasing results.

:up:

[RockfordFosgate]

Go feser Goo:D

[bundymania]

@Bundymania: Can we expect to see some real test results soon? A good place to start would be this new Feser 28mm rad v. HW Labs GTS 25mm rad v. Swiftech MCR 34mm rad. Or for that matter, I am still waiting for somebody to do a real head to head comparison of Feser 480 v. XSPC RX 480. I can't find any review of that matchup, anywhere, in English, German, Spanish, Russian, French, or even Esperanto, nothing, nein, nada, nul, rien, (i don't actually know the Esperanto word for "nothing"). Look, I may not be very smart, but I know how to use Google. I am beginning to think that maybe manufacturers like Feser, XSPC and TC tell the guys that get free stuff from these same manufacturers to never run these head to head tests, hmm? Maybe they said we will only give you free stuff if you don't compare us to the other big boys on the block? I may be a conspiracy nut, but that doesn't mean there isn't collusion between the companies that dominate the market.


I´m working on a quad radiator comparison: XSPC RX - Feser Quad - Magicool Quad

Let me tell you some other infos: Last Year, i was the first reviewer worldwide with an direct comparison between the TFC Feser triple rad, TC 120.3 and some other well known rads (Magicool, Watercool)

In that review, the Feser and Thermochill Rad performs nearly equal, the TFC Radiator was only very slightly in front !

After that, the review was deleted in a "huge and well known german forum" for some for me "strange" reasons :shakes: (a few month later all other reviews with feser products in it too! - "temporary deleted"...so the official statement)

I became some "not so friendly" emails directly after releasing the review - but not from TC or another manufacturer with involved products in that review !

[Martinm210]

Interesting, I like them!

I'm really interested in seeing the quad results, I've been waiting for someone to make a slim quad rad for low speed fans for a while.

Slim radiators perform nearly as well as the double thickness types, I never understood all the hype on double thickness especially with really low speed fans.

FYI, the actual core thickness on slim radiators is 21mm thick, the extra thickness comes from the built in shroud, so it appears they decided to go with a slightly narrower shroud depth. It's one of those give an takes, make it thin so it's compatible with more cases and let folks choose to add their own shrouds, or go thicker to build more shroud benefit into the radiator itself. Different options...

Looking forward to some test results...

Sorry to hear the flaming from folks, I think all testers go through that. Folks are always skeptical. I always had one rule with I did my testing, I gave the manufacturer two options. Either I publish and tell the whole story, or they can opt out of the review all together. I did get a few that never made it, but most of them are generally pretty good about just getting the information out there from what I've seen. A review is always good exposure for them.

Anyhow, for what it's worth. Thanks for posting the pictures, and let us know more as you get some testing done.
Thanks!
Martin

[Fragger]

Slim radiators perform nearly as well as the double thickness types, I never understood all the hype on double thickness especially with really low speed fans.


Martin can you explain to me why this is.

[eth0s]

@ Bundymania: It sounds like you are saying that Feser did not like the reviews it was getting on German websites, and suppressed those reviews. Is that what you are saying? I personally like Feser products, and I have Feser 360 rad right now, and I know it is doing a better job than the MCR 320 that it replaced. I also love Feser colored tubing, and I think I am the only person on Earth who likes the new Triebwerk fans, so I have nothing against the company, but I have suspected for a while that they are not willing to have independent reviews of their products go head to head with other top performers.

@ Martin: You are a like a voice of reason in the wilderness! I have long believed that thinner radiators are better (for both high and low speed fans), but I thought I was the only one. IMHO, the best radiator would be thin and wide, like 25mm thick and 3x3 140mm fans wide (i.e., 9 fans total). This however would be impractical to place in any standard case as it would look like a big cookie-sheet-type-radiator, and would have to be mounted in the side of the case, or be placed outside the case, in its own enclosure.

[Martinm210]

Martin can you explain to me why this is.

Sure,

It's due to one specific thing. The air's ability to store heat is very poor, it's referred to as the "specific heat value". Better yet if you want to compare volume, the "Volumetric Heat Capacity" is an even better comparison.

Basically the air can only store a certain amount of heat until it's pretty well used up.

Water has a fantastic specific heat value, but air is very poor. That's why air is actually considered a good insulator rather than a conductor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_heat_capacity

Volumetric Specific Heat Value
Comparison of the ability to store heat per unit of volume:

Air = 0.001297 J cm−3 K−1
Water = 4.186 J cm−3 K−1

So, water per unit of volume, can store over 3000X more heat than air of the same volume:eek:

This is also part of why flow rate is "Everything" when it comes to heat exchangers/radiators, but flow rate is relatively insignificant when it comes to our loops and blocks. Specific heat isn't the only important thing though, thermal conductivity is equally important, but in terms of looking at using up a substance to exchange heat, specific heat value is the criteria to look at. When water passes through a block the temperature rise is many times only .1C, but in a radiator it can be 10 or even 20 degrees or more and the volume of air moving through the radiator is many many times larger than the volume of water moving through the loop. If you have fans moving 20CFM of air through a triple radiator, that's 60CFM which equals 450 Gallons per minute. The water loop is moving maybe 1.5GPM, so the volume of air going through the radiator is 450/1.5 or about 25X more.

It's too bad you don't live next to a spring fed river. You could put an 80mm radiator in the river and cool many systems strung together. Water is awesome, air sucks or does it "Blow"..?..:D

You can see that in the Air out temperature of the radiator testing. If the air out temperature was equal to the water out temperature, you would have used up 100% of the air's ability to store heat. You can never get 100%, but the difference between slim and double thickness when using slow speed fans is pretty small.

Take a close look at the percentages of the air out vs. water out of the MCR320:

http://martin.skinneelabs.com/img/SwiftechMCR320-Therm1.png

At 600 and 1000RPM, the % is around 67-68%. That means the air's ability to cool is already used up about 67-68% at that flow rate. But notice as the air speeds increase, the % reduces down into the 54% range at the ultra high speed fans.

Now take a look at my TFC480 chart.

At 1000RPM, the % is up to about 86% at the low end and 70% at the high end.
http://martin.skinneelabs.com/img/TFC480-Thermal1.png

So the double thickness does help, but you can only do so much with that remaining capacity left in the air. The first thickness is doing a much higher percentage of cooling and the air is about 60-70% used up by the time it reaches the second layer, so the second layer is only cooling maybe 70% of 30% that's left.

There are gains to be had, but not nearly as much heat exchange that occurs at that first layer that comes into contact with cool fresh air. This is why the frontal area is so key to performance. Add 30% more frontal area and you'll likely gain nearly that 30% in full. That's not the case with thickness because air has a very poor specific heat value, and that become more and more of an issue the slower the air moves.

In addition, you have fans that have a very poor ability in overcoming restriction and you're left with a system that's very sensitive to fan power and density of the exchanger. A simple thing like changing the FPI count by 2FPI is enough to make a measurable change in the radiators optimization.

[Martinm210]

@ Martin: You are a like a voice of reason in the wilderness! I have long believed that thinner radiators are better (for both high and low speed fans), but I thought I was the only one. IMHO, the best radiator would be thin and wide, like 25mm thick and 3x3 140mm fans wide (i.e., 9 fans total). This however would be impractical to place in any standard case as it would look like a big cookie-sheet-type-radiator, and would have to be mounted in the side of the case, or be placed outside the case, in its own enclosure.

I wouldn't say thinner is "Better", just that extra thickness doesn't provide nearly as much gain as more frontal area. There are gains to be had with more thickness, just not a 1:1 gain like frontal area pretty much is.

This is also why I very much look forward to more 140mm radiator options. Not so much for the fans themselves, but for the extra frontal area..:up:

[Vapor]

There's also one other thing important (IMO) to note...a bit of an extension/simplification of what Martin is saying.

At the very basic level, you can only put so much heat into the air. In other words, the volume of air you move through your rad can only take so much heat. When you compare its temperature to the water temperature, you can calculate air saturation. You want air saturation to be as high as possible.

You also want as much airflow as possible--more air moving through the rad = more heat removed from the loop. And this is where radiator design gets difficult: the most effective way to saturate the air is to increase surface area, which also increases restriction and therefore decreases airflow. So it's a balancing act of airflow restriction and airflow saturation.

The easiest ways to increase surface area are to increase fin density or to increase depth and each changes the restriction differently. Radiator manufacturers probably have enough test/production data to optimize their rads for a specific fan power these days, but the trick is to have superior performance across a range of fans :up:

[DementeD]

im also a vote for thinner radiators..reason why i went with the mcr320 over the comp at the time..the others were too thick and didnt provide enough extra performance for the price

[LOUISSSSS]

why not just forget about moving down the line 120mm -> 140mm and go straight to 200mm? 200mm fans can still fit on the top /bottom of most tower cases

i dont think 200mm fans can be squeezed into the optical drive bays tho so the 140mm rads may be the best that we've got right now for those..

[Darth_Penguin]

really?

that's a major violation...

if it is assembled in xyz
finished in a different country, it should clearly state so...

iirc the fines are HEFTY per violation...

garments used to be made in russia/china/vietnam and gets imported under Korean country of origin... the companies that do get busted... gets blacklisted by customs and going to pretty much go through hell to import again...

This is overly simplified. An example I can relate to since I am a watchmaker is this: In order for a watch or watch movement to say "Swiss Made" at least 50% of the cost associated to manufacturing the watch must have come while in Switzerland. You could have a watch in which 1/2 the components are actually manufactured in china, sent back to Switzerland for assembly, polishing, regulating and by the time you are done if you have accounted for 50% of the value you can then deem it "Swiss Made". While tricky, there are similar rules for many different industries.

[bundymania]

@ Bundymania: It sounds like you are saying that Feser did not like the reviews it was getting on German websites, and suppressed those reviews. Is that what you are saying? I personally like Feser products, and I have Feser 360 rad right now, and I know it is doing a better job than the MCR 320 that it replaced. I also love Feser colored tubing, and I think I am the only person on Earth who likes the new Triebwerk fans, so I have nothing against the company, but I have suspected for a while that they are not willing to have independent reviews of their products go head to head with other top performers.


No, Feser and the other Manufactors had absolutly no problem with the results in the Review. They still support me with test samples, all good so far.

[bentleya]

They will be reviews when they come out, by Bundy and myself, TFC are stingy and won't give skinnee samples, i have tried and tried but no luck :(, TFC like who they like and hate who they hate. :)

[Fragger]

Thanks Martin and Vapor, very interesting. The more i learn, the more i find there is to know :yepp:

[Mekrel]

No wonder they're $40, the product quality looks awful.

You get what you pay for I suppose.

[I34z1k]

Sorry for more ot, but i was planning to put a trip and dual rad in the bottom of my tj07 with one fan between them, all fans blowing in same direction.

Would i benefit from using xspc rads over swiftech ones?

Thanks

[kinghong1970]

This is overly simplified. An example I can relate to since I am a watchmaker is this: In order for a watch or watch movement to say "Swiss Made" at least 50% of the cost associated to manufacturing the watch must have come while in Switzerland. You could have a watch in which 1/2 the components are actually manufactured in china, sent back to Switzerland for assembly, polishing, regulating and by the time you are done if you have accounted for 50% of the value you can then deem it "Swiss Made". While tricky, there are similar rules for many different industries.

i'm sure various countries have varying standards...

i'm in the apparel business and have been designing and importing garments for the past 20 years...
i've produced from Korea, Indonesia, China, Vietnam, HK (which is really china), India, Italy and Romania... and exported to Japan, Korea, UK, Italy and France in my short career...

to mislabel in your care/content label for product imported in USA is a serious violation and last i recall, they apply hefty charges per violation (per item).

i understand where you are coming from, % of manufacturing being a majority can be labeled as so... but see, this system is faulty in that it's deceiving... we're paying for "swiss made" where only 49.999% can be china made.

there is a similar application where the typical high school letterman varsity jacket... it's composed of leather at the sleeves and minor contrast, and wool/nylon blend at body... and basically, wool import duty and quota is very pricey... so some import methods have been to bring it in as leather goods claiming that the value of over 50%.

but composition and c/o is a different matter.

it used to be the case where if a specific item is over 50% assembly can be labeled as originating from that country... but now you have to label that it is assembled in xyz, parts made in abc...

furthermore, in a radiator, how much of the production, do you think, is done in EU? as a fellow businessman, would it make sense to actually produce the parts and have them shipped over to EU to be assembled? or just send over un-finished parts and send over for painting?

mind you, suburbs of major cities in china, factory operators, not technicians or line chiefs, gets paid about 100-150 USD per month...

btw, i'm not speculating whether the company is making their product and deceiving the consumer...

FYI: next time you buy made in Italy or France of Germany goods, take a real close look at how the content label and c/o is sewn in the garment.
there are cases where the fabric is really sheer or very fragile and so it is hand stitched... but if you find a cotton jersey tee that has label sewn on top of the seam (post production) instead of sewn inside the seam (during production), be very cautious...

now i'm still in the fashion industry but i buy rtw clothes... some showrooms tell me that it's made in italy...

that's why i wear this shirt in fashion week...
http://www.jumperlumps.com/product_images/711/detail_WTF_Detail.gif

sorry for the long reply...

[bentleya]

NO offense, but dose anyone have any evidence to show they are made in china?

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

NO offense, but dose anyone have any evidence to show they are made in china?

I have heard from a reliable source who was once close to feser - I really cant say who so please don't discredit me for not naming ;)

[kinghong1970]

NO offense, but dose anyone have any evidence to show they are made in china?



btw, i'm not speculating whether the company is making their product and deceiving the consumer...

:D

thank you...

[Darth_Penguin]

i'm sure various countries have varying standards...

i'm in the apparel business and have been designing and importing garments for the past 20 years...
i've produced from Korea, Indonesia, China, Vietnam, HK (which is really china), India, Italy and Romania... and exported to Japan, Korea, UK, Italy and France in my short career...

to mislabel in your care/content label for product imported in USA is a serious violation and last i recall, they apply hefty charges per violation (per item).

i understand where you are coming from, % of manufacturing being a majority can be labeled as so... but see, this system is faulty in that it's deceiving... we're paying for "swiss made" where only 49.999% can be china made.

there is a similar application where the typical high school letterman varsity jacket... it's composed of leather at the sleeves and minor contrast, and wool/nylon blend at body... and basically, wool import duty and quota is very pricey... so some import methods have been to bring it in as leather goods claiming that the value of over 50%.

but composition and c/o is a different matter.

it used to be the case where if a specific item is over 50% assembly can be labeled as originating from that country... but now you have to label that it is assembled in xyz, parts made in abc...

furthermore, in a radiator, how much of the production, do you think, is done in EU? as a fellow businessman, would it make sense to actually produce the parts and have them shipped over to EU to be assembled? or just send over un-finished parts and send over for painting?

mind you, suburbs of major cities in china, factory operators, not technicians or line chiefs, gets paid about 100-150 USD per month...

btw, i'm not speculating whether the company is making their product and deceiving the consumer...

FYI: next time you buy made in Italy or France of Germany goods, take a real close look at how the content label and c/o is sewn in the garment.
there are cases where the fabric is really sheer or very fragile and so it is hand stitched... but if you find a cotton jersey tee that has label sewn on top of the seam (post production) instead of sewn inside the seam (during production), be very cautious...

now i'm still in the fashion industry but i buy rtw clothes... some showrooms tell me that it's made in italy...

that's why i wear this shirt in fashion week...

sorry for the long reply...

Interesting (I have no real knowledge of the apparel industry) :up:

[bentleya]

I have heard from a reliable source who was once close to feser - I really cant say who so please don't discredit me for not naming ;)

I take that as a no then. For all we do that could be BS, as you don't know anything more about the new thermochill range than the guys at WCUK forum.

You can PM me his name, if you want, cos i don't think it's far to BS about a company just cos you don't like them, i have been told from day one, and i keep asking them each time the subject comes up and they say they are made in germany end of from my end. :shrug:

[*|T2D|*PopovS]

i keep asking them each time the subject comes up and they say they are made in Germany end of from my end. :shrug:

Same here. :yepp:

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

take it as you will, I dont have a way to "prove" to you what I know to be true.

[*|T2D|*PopovS]

take it as you will, I dont have a way to "prove" to you what I know to be true.

If I remember correctly, it was entertained back in 2008 but yield no befits.

[kinghong1970]

now now boys... let's not go off and get all heated up on a speculation...

if one has "insider" information.. fine... but it's all speculation unless proven so...

we all know that what we read on these forums, we should take it with a grain of salt...

[fox3]

take it as you will, I dont have a way to "prove" to you what I know to be true.

You don't need to justify what you heard or expose names, you are just repeating information that you heard from a "reliable" source. Misinformation after being repeated enough gets validated as truth over time.

Does not mean that it is true and I would not put much confidence innit unless the "reliable source" is willing to come forward with the facts. Until then I would refer to it as hearsay... aka gossip. JMHO

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

either way a radiator is a radiator correct even if made in china feser has standards to keep to inspect them to make sure they are ok and dont leak im assuming.

[Martinm210]

Are there any higher resolution pictures up close you might have?

That's usually where quality seems to lack on some of the budget radiators.
This is my MCR220, the fins seem to be a bit irregular in spacing and shape. I don't think it really makes much of any difference in performance, but something I've noticed.
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7080/mcr220fins.jpg

[BP-Vincent]

NO offense, but dose anyone have any evidence to show they are made in china?

If anyone who will fly to China...I will show you where it came form.

Products made in China just tell customers the truth..don't always tell lie to customers.

It's the basic responsibility for your product and your brand.

[Mekrel]

NO offense, but dose anyone have any evidence to show they are made in china?

Have you seen German craftmanship?

If these came out of Germany, then they're produced by cowboys. Either way, the quality is terribad (that's terrible and bad, all rolled into one).

That paint work looks like it was done by a chimpanzee who's been let loose with a can of spray paint.

[orangekiwii]

german engineering is great idk what your on about?

maybe feser specifically is poor but germany in general has great engineering

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

german engineering is great idk what your on about?

maybe feser specifically is poor but germany in general has great engineering

He's basically saying that if they are made in germany they are the sloppiest made german products around. (basically you guys are agreeing)

vincent knows whats up - my source about the china information is also an industry source and I think the people in the business know what is up ;)

[Sly Fox]

Feser, do something shady?!?! :shocked:

Why I never! :rofl: :ROTF: ;)

[Sparky]

For 40 bucks I'd be looking at adding a couple more bucks and getting a swiftech, proven quality and performance.

[Mekrel]

Feser, do something shady?!?! :shocked:

Why I never! :rofl: :ROTF: ;)

Aye, the ethics of TFC are disgusting.

The crap they pull makes me wonder if Watercooling manufacturers are kept a close eye on by any sort of standards body.

If any large retailer in the world pulls something dodgy, they're pretty much found out without someone blowing a whistle.

I actually believe as consumer, we're poorly treated by some of the manufacturers.

[LOUISSSSS]

Aye, the ethics of TFC are disgusting.

The crap they pull makes me wonder if Watercooling manufacturers are kept a close eye on by any sort of standards body.

If any large retailer in the world pulls something dodgy, they're pretty much found out without someone blowing a whistle.

I actually believe as consumer, we're poorly treated by some of the manufacturers.

what did feser do now??

[Mekrel]

what did feser do now??

Well I couldn't care what else they do. After their aggressive threat of physically assulting another manufacturer, they're never going to have an ounce of my respect or money.

[Sparky]

Well I couldn't care what else they do. After their aggressive threat of physically assulting another manufacturer, they're never going to have an ounce of my respect or money.

Pretty much my standing.

[MomijiTMO]

Guys shall I remind you of Feser in Europe? The guys are worshipped.

I've been shadowing this thread of a while. My take on this rad is this. YAY, more competition.

[Easybeat]

german engineering is great idk what your on about?

maybe feser specifically is poor but germany in general has great engineering

A common myth, however the truth is actually more banal. German engineering is no different from pretty much every other European country in terms of quality they just have a good press. Having spent the last 10 years traipsing around Europe visiting Engineering/manufacturing factories I have seen my share of good and bad and they are all the same in my eyes.

As for made in Germany, I once saw a train on the Poland/Germany border filled with cars of a household name which were waiting for 2 items to be fitted in Germany:-
1. The Wheels
2. The Assembled in Germany sticker.

[*|T2D|*PopovS]

Well I couldn't care what else they do. After their aggressive threat of physically assulting another manufacturer, they're never going to have an ounce of my respect or money.


I'm late for the party.... What this all is about? Did Feser folks kicked somebody in the nuts?:rofl: +1 in my record!

[Eddie3dfx]

Bundy, thanks for posting this information.
I haven't read the threads on here, but it will be interesting to see what kind of performance this radiator can dish out. That being said, the paint job looks horrible.
I'd like to see a rad company target thinner radiators and optimize them. For some lan setups, the black ice pro is the only radiator that will fit.

[MomijiTMO]

Yeah if similar to the 320, things could be most interesting [savings].


I'm late for the party.... What this all is about? Did Feser folks kicked somebody in the nuts?:rofl: +1 in my record!

Don't get caught up in the lunacy. It goes like this. Feser guy sends email to BP guy. Feser guy says he'd hit BP guy. Someone posts part of the email here. Reading that extract looks threatening. Apparently the full email goes a bit different. Feser guy says it was in good humor.

Basically no one knows the full story but them. In my opinion it was poorly played sarcasm on someone who clearly does not have the same knowledge of English and English expressions. If you've had exchange students over, you quickly learn they the do not know how to recognise sarcasm or jokes. Abysmal business relations on Feser's behalf.

[Waterlogged]

Yeah if similar to the 320, things could be most interesting [savings].



Don't get caught up in the lunacy. It goes like this. Feser guy sends email to BP guy. Feser guy says he'd hit BP guy. Someone posts part of the email here. Reading that extract looks threatening. Apparently the full email goes a bit different. Feser guy says it was in good humor.

Basically no one knows the full story but them. In my opinion it was poorly played sarcasm on someone who clearly does not have the same knowledge of English and English expressions. If you've had exchange students over, you quickly learn they the do not know how to recognise sarcasm or jokes. Abysmal business relations on Feser's behalf.

Actually goes back a lot further than that.

Fester asks BP for comp samples, reverse engineers them and has them made in china, BP starts legal action against Fester, Fester takes exception to being called thieves, Mario (from Fester) sends a e-mail to a Fester shill (which part of was posted here then removed for legal reasons) in which he threatens Vincent that if they meet at the trade expo in Germany he'd "show him the fine craftsmanship of German wheelchairs". Chaos then ensued on the forums and many of the members here vowed never to own anything made by Fester.

[Metric]

Yeah if similar to the 320, things could be most interesting [savings].



Don't get caught up in the lunacy. It goes like this. Feser guy sends email to BP guy. Feser guy says he'd hit BP guy. Someone posts part of the email here. Reading that extract looks threatening. Apparently the full email goes a bit different. Feser guy says it was in good humor.

Basically no one knows the full story but them. In my opinion it was poorly played sarcasm on someone who clearly does not have the same knowledge of English and English expressions. If you've had exchange students over, you quickly learn they the do not know how to recognise sarcasm or jokes. Abysmal business relations on Feser's behalf.
More precisely http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3300809&postcount=34 :shakes:
edit: Ah, Waterlogged beat me to it

[MomijiTMO]

And now we have the full story.

=D

I want me some German engineered wheelchairs. They must have rockets.


[Yes this does sound familiar now. I remember saying how they should have had international patents and then Vincent saying that there isn't one in this industry. Something like that anyway].

[Waterlogged]

Just as long as they're not made by Innovatek or Fester, they should be amazing wheelchairs. :ROTF:



[Yes this does sound familiar now. I remember saying how they should have had international patents and then Vincent saying that there isn't one in this industry. Something like that anyway].

Heres the 2 posts that pretty much started the fireball.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3486926&postcount=164

[LOUISSSSS]

wow feser.. wtf... wants to fight another firm? lol fist fight? hah
and feser stole BP's patents? did not know that. i'll stick w/ BP's
all this + Feser's overpriced rads that barely/don't beat the competition? (think TFC360 vs RX360 w/ low speed fans)

[Waterlogged]

When Fester announced their rads, they screamed far and wide "Beats Thermochills by 5°C (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=180425)". I have to this day, not yet seen a test that confirms that claim.

Fester as a company, IMO, is nothing more than a bunch of charlatans and thieves.

[*|T2D|*PopovS]

"show him the fine craftsmanship of German wheelchairs".

Ha-ha! Beautiful! :ROTF:

Thank you for the story, Waterlogged. Appreciate that. :up:

[Martinm210]

This is another one of those: "We have no performance figures or even good pictures to go by things." I've seen this same thing repeat itself over and over with new products. It goes something like this:

Step 1 "Interest Phase" - Initially we get alot of interested and curiosity.
Step 2 "The Drama Zone" - But before too long, since there's no data, people get bored and it unfortunately migrates to aimless banter, drama, name calling, and rumor building.
Step 3 "Testing Phase" - As the drama begins to subside, someone "constructive" will actually apply their energy toward doing some useful testing. They feel a need to serve others rather than to carry on with the useless banter that goes nowhere.
Step 4 "Understanding/Conclusion phase"- At last those "constructive" folks will share what they've learned and set our minds at ease with useful information we can benefit from.

I'm afraid we're at step 2 and deeply in the "Drama" zone today...who's got popcorn?...:D

[Sparky]

This is another one of those: "We have no performance figures or even good pictures to go by things." I've seen this same thing repeat itself over and over with new products. It goes something like this:

Step 1 "Interest Phase" - Initially we get alot of interested and curiosity.
Step 2 "The Drama Zone" - But before too long, since there's no data, people get bored and it unfortunately migrates to aimless banter, drama, name calling, and rumor building.
Step 3 "Testing Phase" - As the drama begins to subside, someone "constructive" will actually apply their energy toward doing some useful testing. They feel a need to serve others rather than to carry on with the useless banter that goes nowhere.
Step 4 "Understanding/Conclusion phase"- At last those "constructive" folks will share what they've learned and set our minds at ease with useful information we can benefit from.

I'm afraid we're at step 2 and deeply in the "Drama" zone today...who's got popcorn?...:D

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g270/SparkyJJO/smileys/popcorn.gif

[Martinm210]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g270/SparkyJJO/smileys/popcorn.gif

That's awesome, it's even buttered just the way I like it!:up::D

[Waterlogged]

Think I'll join you guys.:D

http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/3017/popcorn2wf2.gif

[Vapor]

I'm jumping in too :p:

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4706/topopcorn.jpg

[*|T2D|*PopovS]

Right on Martin! :ROTF:

[bentleya]

Any for me? TBH, i don't know what Feser do, i don't know who to trust everyone says diffrent things :(

here some more popcorn for people

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g270/SparkyJJO/smileys/popcorn.gif http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g270/SparkyJJO/smileys/popcorn.gif http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g270/SparkyJJO/smileys/popcorn.gif http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g270/SparkyJJO/smileys/popcorn.gif

And someone said about paint, this is pre production, so paint is naff so i'm told.