Thermochill under new management!!!

[Jupiler]

Just found this article at Over c l o c k 3D.net that Thermochill has been "snapped up" (as says the article) by WatercoolingUK and XSPC.

Interesting read.

http://www.overclock3d.net/articles.php?/cases_cooling/thermochill_under_new_management/1

[skinnee]

Yes, I can confirm this.

[BlueAqua]

Great read and good news for sure. I like the standard 15mm fan spacing but I wonder if the PA 120.3 will still be as big as it is, or if it will shrink to the size of other triple rads. That's where the PA 120.3 gained a lot of performance over other triples.

[eponymous]

Hah. Just found out that XSPC are English and that their base in the UK is not far from where I used to live. Maybe I should pop in for a visit? lol...

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

I know things I can't say on this matter but needless to say it's very good news :up:

[MpG]

Just imagine, a TC rad with 15mm spacing, copper tube construction, and no need for 10hrs of flushing beforehand... that could be a seriously sweet radiator.

[anzial]

Only TC's now be called XSPCs lol ;) :D

[Bei Fei]

Bad for the mountain mod owners that have the old spacing.

[Alchemy1]

That is what I was thinking, but at least one of my cases are "hyper modular". It'll cost ~$200, but the front and back can/could be swapped out.

[CyberDruid]

I've got a pair of XSPC 480 on the bench and they are very nice rads. Can't see where ThermoChill is going to niche into the market. I love the PA line but why would XSPC continue it when they have pretty much done their best to beat it and copy it? I hope it is good news.

[shazza]

Bad for the mountain mod owners that have the old spacing.

I don't see where it's bad, as long as you already have the Thermochills. Sitting here with 2 MM cases and 3 Thermochill PA120.3s ... don't expect to wear the out any time soon ;)

[Brodholm]

I've got a pair of XSPC 480 on the bench and they are very nice rads. Can't see where ThermoChill is going to niche into the market. I love the PA line but why would XSPC continue it when they have pretty much done their best to beat it and copy it? I hope it is good news.

Yeah, I'm kinda stunned by that too. The RX is basically a TC with normal spacing and support for G1/4". Correct me if I'm wrong...

[MpG]

The RX also uses copper-tube construction, as opposed to the TC's brass tubes. Which makes TC's (and Swiftech's) ability to keep up with the latest that much more impressive.

[dualbrain]

Steve: Thank you for this outstanding product that had and still has so much character and reputation!

[skinnee]

The RX has lower FPI (8) and 3 copper tubes per row, where the TC is 10 FPI and 2 brass tubes per row.

Really, they're completely different radiators.


Steve: Thank you for this outstanding product that had and still has so much character and reputation!

+1!

[Brodholm]

The RX has lower FPI (8) and 3 copper tubes per row, where the TC is 10 FPI and 2 brass tubes per row.

Really, they're completely different radiators.



+1!

You learn something new every day here at XS. But it is giving very similar performance.

[Martinm210]

Interesting. Those 24.5mm case owners better make sure they have rads to fill those holes before they are all gone!

I'm still waiting for a quad 140mm low speed fan optimized radiator, perhaps part of their future plans?

[Sadasius]

Very good news. Having more options is always a good thing except if your married and your wife catches you looking at....ummm options! :up:

[DarthBeavis]

glad he sold it while TC's goodwill was still worth something. You can only let a company idle for so long before it looses it's value

[Sly Fox]

glad he sold it while TC's goodwill was still worth something. You can only let a company idle for so long before it looses it's value

I was just about to make a similar comment. :up:

I've never personally been in the market for a TC rad, but I have noticed that every single site lists them as out of stock.

Good to hear things are looking up for them.

[skinnee]

I don't see where it's bad, as long as you already have the Thermochills. Sitting here with 2 MM cases and 3 Thermochill PA120.3s ... don't expect to wear the out any time soon ;)

Similar situation for me. 1 MM case with 3 120.3's and a spare 120.3 on the test bench. It will be good to see Thermochill's evolve further. Look at the HE to PA series.

[DeathWalking]

Similar situation for me. 1 MM case with 3 120.3's and a spare 120.3 on the test bench. It will be good to see Thermochill's evolve further. Look at the HE to PA series.I honestly doubt the improvement will be quite that big. The HE series was back when Marci was still (essentially) figuring out what worked well, and the PA was the result of his tinkering. Sure, they can polish the design some more (G1/4, standard threads, maybe go with copper tubes?), but I think most of the performance is already there...

[Martinm210]

I'd personally like to see more options regarding fan optimization. Why does each manufacturer optimize for one fan area only?

Why not make a slow, medium, high speed model and simply modify the FPI count for each option. I wouldn't think that minor variation in manufacturing would be that difficult.

You could make one optimized for under 1000RPM fans, one for 1000-1500, and one for 1500+. I think people would like that rather than going for a one size fits all approach..? You simply can't optimize for everything, so why not make some RPM specific options.

[ILikeCosmosS]

here is my question which is better to have copper tubes or brass tubes?

as skinny stated the Rx and the TC Pa 120's are very different being that one has copper and the other has brass tubes
but what about feser rads, i really havent seen much issues with them and there specs and such..

[LinusTech]

I'd personally like to see more options regarding fan optimization. Why does each manufacturer optimize for one fan area only?

Why not make a slow, medium, high speed model and simply modify the FPI count for each option. I wouldn't think that minor variation in manufacturing would be that difficult.

You could make one optimized for under 1000RPM fans, one for 1000-1500, and one for 1500+. I think people would like that rather than going for a one size fits all approach..? You simply can't optimize for everything, so why not make some RPM specific options.

SKU count.

No retailer wants to take a risky inventory position. If you go to a car lot you'll discover that despite the fact that Volkwagen has 100s of different variations, you'll likely find only 2-5 versions of each model with things like colour and packages being the differences.

If Thermochill tripled their product line, then essentially they'd be splitting the run rate from their PA line over a few lines. By keeping SKU count down you make things far easier to manage for your resellers.

[skinnee]

I honestly doubt the improvement will be quite that big. The HE series was back when Marci was still (essentially) figuring out what worked well, and the PA was the result of his tinkering. Sure, they can polish the design some more (G1/4, standard threads, maybe go with copper tubes?), but I think most of the performance is already there...

Good point and bad reference on my part. The HE to PA was a major performance improvement. The core of the PA is solid, some performance optimization and market standards updating can certainly extend the product life and keep the name strong


here is my question which is better to have copper tubes or brass tubes?

as skinny stated the Rx and the TC Pa 120's are very different being that one has copper and the other has brass tubes
but what about feser rads, i really havent seen much issues with them and there specs and such..

TFC has 12 FPI, 15/17mm fan spacing with copper tubes and end tanks.

[kinghong1970]

SKU count.

No retailer wants to take a risky inventory position. If you go to a car lot you'll discover that despite the fact that Volkwagen has 100s of different variations, you'll likely find only 2-5 versions of each model with things like colour and packages being the differences.

If Thermochill tripled their product line, then essentially they'd be splitting the run rate from their PA line over a few lines. By keeping SKU count down you make things far easier to manage for your resellers.

and not to mention, decreases production costs...

when i started my apparel production, say if one style takes 100 man hours to design, to pre-production sampling... the cost was same whether we made 500,000pcs of a jacket or just 500 jacket...

also, in the production line, when you have bigger production... the output in the start of production is very slow... and eventually picks up to the "optimal" rate as each of the operators get more proficient in their task...

quality is also better when/by producing more of one style/item... the operator becomes skilled in their function in the production line and quality/quantity increases.

[ILikeCosmosS]

skinnee is there any advantage to the end tanks?

which is better to have though copper tubes or brass tubes?

[kinghong1970]

I've got a pair of XSPC 480 on the bench and they are very nice rads. Can't see where ThermoChill is going to niche into the market. I love the PA line but why would XSPC continue it when they have pretty much done their best to beat it and copy it? I hope it is good news.

and do it cheaper out of china without trading off quality and function...

[jab-tech]

and do it cheaper out of china without trading off quality and function...

I talked to Sue last Friday and she let me know what was going on, its really a shame but what matters most is Steve gets on the mend..
Spoke to Paul on Saturday and he let me know about the plans and changes.

Both parties said production is going to be kept in the UK.

[kinghong1970]

I talked to Sue last Friday and she let me know what was going on, its really a shame but what matters most is Steve gets on the mend..
Spoke to Paul on Saturday and he let me know about the plans and changes.

Both parties said production is going to be kept in the UK.

yes i understand that TC will like to keep it made in UK...

but my point being that XSPC rads out of china performs well and if you compare prices... it'll take amazing brand loyalty to make someone dish out over 30% extra when the chinese made rad quality is very good...

i had no doubt that TC will shift production over to cheaper countries... and iirc, they stated so...

[nikhsub1]

I honestly doubt the improvement will be quite that big. The HE series was back when Marci was still (essentially) figuring out what worked well, and the PA was the result of his tinkering. Sure, they can polish the design some more (G1/4, standard threads, maybe go with copper tubes?), but I think most of the performance is already there...
Correction, Cathar basically turned the HE into the PA... even today there are documented improvements to the PA that Cathar and Marci worked on... Just an FYI.

[Jah]

yes i understand that TC will like to keep it made in UK...

but my point being that XSPC rads out of china performs well and if you compare prices... it'll take amazing brand loyalty to make someone dish out over 30% extra when the chinese made rad quality is very good...

i had no doubt that TC will shift production over to cheaper countries... and iirc, they stated so...

In the UK, at least in the store I checked the TC is cheaper the the XSPC RX rads, by about 20£ no idea to availability on the TC rad though. May very well depend in a weak £.

I can't help to think that the demise of TC is a bad thing as we will get less competition in the high end of radiators. As I think XSPC have no real reason to keep TC as anything else then a rebranded XSPC rad.

[LogAn'sRun]

I know things I can't say on this matter. . . but needless to say it's very good news :up:

I'm sorry, and take no offense, but I hate when people who have insider information say that. It's like a little kid sticking his thumb on his nose and wiggling his fingers at you going 'njah njah najh njah'.

Either say it, or say nothing at all - my own :2cents:

[Mech0z]

I hope the UK prices stay the same, becasue then its a cheaper alternative to the XSPC rads still, but for the people abroad XSPC will probobly be the best choise.

[kinghong1970]

In the UK, at least in the store I checked the TC is cheaper the the XSPC RX rads, by about 20£ no idea to availability on the TC rad though. May very well depend in a weak £.

I can't help to think that the demise of TC is a bad thing as we will get less competition in the high end of radiators. As I think XSPC have no real reason to keep TC as anything else then a rebranded XSPC rad.

could be duty... chinese goods into USA and Canada differs even though they are under the HTS code because of duty... a down jacket into USA under rainwear category (fabric pass rainwear standards) can come in under 10% duty but to canada, i hear the duty was over 30% or something like that...

mexico has a ridiculous duty on chinese goods.

but i do hope that TC will continue being the "bentley" of the watercooling industry... but for some reason, last night, when i picked up my 120.3... i did not oooh and aaaaah over it as i did when i purchased my AMV8... for that matter, not even my BMW540...

i know that with the added knowledge that is available these days, when i see the XSPC RX 360 available along with the PA120.3... price will outweigh brand loyalty...


I'm sorry, and take no offense, but I hate when people who have insider information say that. It's like a little kid sticking his thumb on his nose and wiggling his fingers at you going 'njah njah najh njah'.

Either say it, or say nothing at all - my own :2cents:

:rofl:

kinda reminds of that one specific kid in school...

:D

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

I just wanted to let you guys know that the things I know are good things for thermochill - I would tell you if I could ;)

cheers from Paris,

-Ian

[kinghong1970]

hope you did not take offense... just being silly, as usual.

waddaya doing in Paris?

[Waterlogged]

I just wanted to let you guys know that the things I know are good things for thermochill - I would tell you if I could ;)

cheers from Paris,

-Ian

SNiiPE, Your in Paris...ON VACATION, go enjoy yourself and ignore us until you get back.

[LogAn'sRun]

SNiiPE, Your in Paris...ON VACATION, go enjoy yourself and ignore us until you get back.

'You're' (sorry, just hate that grammar error for some reason)

Besides, we the XS community can't be ignored - muhahahahahahaha!

[Mekrel]

I just wanted to let you guys know that the things I know are good things for thermochill - I would tell you if I could ;)

cheers from Paris,

-Ian

No, you want to make yourself look like some sort of important insider - hence your winking smileys.

What you said adds nothing to the thread. :down:

[DarthBeavis]

I'm sorry, and take no offense, but I hate when people who have insider information say that. It's like a little kid sticking his thumb on his nose and wiggling his fingers at you going 'njah njah najh njah'.

Either say it, or say nothing at all - my own :2cents:

nah nah nah. Google my comments on TC ;) Go back about a year. :rofl:

[marcus000]

I just wanted to let you guys know that the things I know are good things for thermochill - I would tell you if I could ;)

..... lol? :rofl:

[nikhsub1]

No, you want to make yourself look like some sort of important insider - hence your winking smileys.

What you said adds nothing to the thread. :down:
Kind of like your post :) and kind of like mine too, although, I do agree with you :p:

[DarthBeavis]

Kind of like your post :) and kind of like mine too, although, I do agree with you :p:

dude you have a long HISTORY here and lots of insight. Your posts add value even when you are dogging me ;)

One thing I should point out is if Ben had run Mountain Mods the way TC was run we would only have access to welded UFO cases . . . no Ascensions, no hyper-modular. TC had one good design run (assuming you only count the PA as it achieved great status) then did nothing noteworthy. I am used to hearing the same argument about Danger Den and their blocks although they at least did modify the TDX to deal with multi-cores and they have done really well in expanding into the case market. TC has such a great name. It is good to know it will not just vanish.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

wow so much hating.... there are bigger and better things than the pa120.3 coming soon!

well I'm off to look at beautiful art and eat better food than you guys will all year :p: (that is unless your french :D)

[defect9]

wow so much hating.... there are bigger and better things than the pa120.3 coming soon!

well I'm off to look at beautiful art and eat better food than you guys will all year :p: (that is unless your french :D)

my haggis can beat up your french food:ROTF::rofl:

[LogAn'sRun]

wow so much hating.... there are bigger and better things than the pa120.3 coming soon!

well I'm off to look at beautiful art and eat better food than you guys will all year :p: (that is unless your french :D)

LOL, or European ;)

[biggles1]

LOL, or European ;)

Especially Swedish residents... ;-)

[quattro_]

good luck Thermochill
i just hope XSPC don't drag them down !

[DarthBeavis]

good luck Thermochill
i just hope XSPC don't drag them down !

XSPC is a good company.

[quattro_]

maybe but they need to work very hard on quality control .

[Marci]

Bear in mind that the changes to fanspacing (and if they do shift to G1/4" also) will mean all the test data becomes invalid unless someone extrapolates the changes and produces some new data. The changes WILL affect performance. Whether for better or worse can only be deduced by testing. There were always reasons why the spacing was as it was, and why G3/8" barbs were used. Rob and Paul have the spreadsheets with all the testing figures on them... whether they can get the maths done to predict effect of changes, and whether they choose to test those predictions is up to them - it's a lot of time, and to get the equipment, a lot of money and expertise required.

Making cores with varying FPIs to suit varying fans is a mammoth task and EXTREMELY costly.

Thermochill was always performance based, not aesthetics based, and always existed to satisfy the UK market predominantly more than anywhere else in the world due to difficulty (back in HE days) if getting regular supplies of any brand of radiator here. We used to loose hundred on damaged BI rads coming in from Germany, and orders that simply never surfaced. Solution - make our own. A co-operative of companies in the UK got together and the HE series were released. Later that co-operative broke down for various reasons, and O-CuK ended up taking the reigns.

There was never a need to produce a different design until very recently. And even then that need remains questionable as the testing being done nowadays in the scene is much less thorough and precise as was done back then by BillA... and thus the derived data less accurate. Not knocking those doing testing nowadays, but they have to admit it's nowhere near as intense as Bill's testing was... *shrug* ...for those with no clue of what I speak, look back 8 years or so in XS's forums, ProCooling, Overclockers.com.au and ocforums.com. Many people contributed to making the ThermoChill design and data what it was, and it was them who established our reputation. nikhsub was there at the time and saw it all... one of the few on here now I think from those days...

Some changes, such as Brass Inserts for M4 threads, were deemed too costly - the knock on effect on the price of the rad (or the profit margin depending how the figures went) was basically considered unjust for the benefits by those we were supplying to in large quantities at the time. All they wanted was cheaper... anything that made them even slightly more expensive was basically frowned upon by dealers outside of the UK, so I never managed to get those changes put through, despite pushing for them a few times. The bleed valve was originally a proper fill cap when the HE was conceived to completely negate needs for a reservoir or T-Line. Again, too costly to implement, and was revisited many times over the years but with same outcome every time. It ended up being the brass screw as it was all that was feasible to do whilst retaining the original functionality of being an easy way to get the air out if the radiator and system reservoir was mounted correctly (res above rad, rad with barbs to bottom).

The design changes that I and Cathar had envisioned for future radiators are not part of Rob and Paul's plans for changes. Where things were going to go next after the PA120 series remains in the hands of Cathar with the only prototype of the original PA140, which was completely designed from the ground up to BE a 140, rather than just a PA scaled up to fit that size fan, with the added bonus of being designed to fit in any case with 5.25" drivebays from floor to ceiling without modding. Testing on those done by Cathar led to some interesting conclusions for other performance increases, which had tradeoffs in some areas to get the performance in others. Watercooling took a different direction and so these designs never saw the light of day, and were never more than mathematical models based on the performance of various tested prototypes. The disappearance of BillA from the scene meant that testing data couldn't be gained for the plethora of ideas to be able to bring them to reality.

And so Thermochill enters a new phase... with new ideas... new methods... and to be honest, a new breed of watercoolers with different goals and objectives. Anything released beyond the "upscaled" PA140 will be solely their brainchild...

Kinda brings a tear to my eye - s'the gradual ending (in many ways) of an era that took up such a HUGE chunk of my life... and that allowed me to talk and learn things from some truly great people whom I admire to this day, and have to thank as without them I wouldn't be where I am today. If it wasn't for Steve, I'd quite possibly be dead by now... he helped me out thru some scary times... and Cathar et alle managed to hone my blunt mind into a handy tool (at times!)... their scientific obsession for empiracy (? does that exist ? nikhsub know's what I mean) rubbed off on me in such a monumental way, and made me the obsessive nutjob that I am now!

Best of luck to Rob n' Paul - hope they have as much fun with it as I and others did back in the day... and hope they succesfully manage to add another pile of years on to the company's history. My only tip to them - you will NEVER please everyone. Choose to whom you want to appeal and stick with them. Ignore the rest.

[kinghong1970]

Holy Snap! Marci sighting!!!


you will NEVER please everyone. Choose to whom you want to appeal and stick with them. Ignore the rest.

:up:

[DarthBeavis]

The design changes that I and Cathar had envisioned for future radiators are not part of Rob and Paul's plans for changes.
If only they had allowed those with a vision to make the product follow it. No one is saying the NOW dominant fan spacing is better or G 1/4 is better. What we are saying is having a standard IS better. Would it be better if 3/8 threads were the standard? probably. geno pointed out our market is about the only one that went with the g 1/4 standard. I don't care which one as long as vendors stick on one standard with their products. If 3/8 is better then I guess the old timer failed us by not being influential enough to get the vendors to go with that standard.

[Mech0z]

If only they had allowed those with a vision to make the product follow it. No one is saying the NOW dominant fan spacing is better or G 1/4 is better. What we are saying is having a standard IS better. Would it be better if 3/8 threads were the standard? probably. geno pointed out our market is about the only one that went with the g 1/4 standard. I don't care which one as long as vendors stick on one standard with their products. If 3/8 is better then I guess the old timer failed us by not being influential enough to get the vendors to go with that standard.

Now I havent really read up on it but isnt it pretty clear that 3/8 is bigger than 1/4 and therefore allowing for more flow? Allthough it might be debatable if its worth it (Much like 1/2" vs 7/16")

[DarthBeavis]

Now I havent really read up on it but isnt it pretty clear that 3/8 is bigger than 1/4 and therefore allowing for more flow? Allthough it might be debatable if its worth it (Much like 1/2" vs 7/16")

there you go. not so clear. there is more to a loop than fittings.

[Sadasius]

Exactly. Standards should kept until something comes out that needs to break that standard and to create a new standard. The only true constant in the universe is change.

[_G_]

<snip>The bleed valve was originally a proper fill cap when the HE was conceived to completely negate needs for a reservoir or T-Line. Again, too costly to implement, and was revisited many times over the years but with same outcome every time. It ended up being the brass screw as it was all that was feasible to do whilst retaining the original functionality of being an easy way to get the air out if the radiator and system reservoir was mounted correctly (res above rad, rad with barbs to bottom).
<snip>

I was disappointed when i read about the bleed screw being drooped in the new production run. (its makes for a tidy fillport with a large syringe)

[Boogerlad]

i kinda don't understand the point of g3/8 threads because everyone uses a converter to bring it down to g1/4.

[CyberDruid]

It's not every day you get to hear it from the Horses's mouth. In fact I'd say it's the other way around most of the time ;)

[nikhsub1]

Great to see you Marci! Things are definitely different these days...

[Petra]

Things are definitely different these days...

No kidding...

[situman]

It's a sad day. Thermochills will no longer be real Thermochills. It's amazing how a very old design like the PA can still beat or hang with the newer stuff. I'm hoping new Thermochill products will still be designed with inputs from some of the "old guards."

[The Nemesis]

After reading this thread, I just bought a PA 120.3 before they all disappear. I have no use for it now as my PA 120.2 is just fine, but I just doubt we'll see very many rads top these. I think of thermocchills rads as the 426 Hemi.

[nikhsub1]

It's amazing how a very old design like the PA can still beat or hang with the newer stuff.
Actually it isn't at all. One word. Cathar.

[jab-tech]

You know it wasn't until I read Marci's post did I realize how much he, Billa and Cathar is missed.. I personally would love to see the trio back.
Next time I am in Barnsley me you and steve (maybe Sue) will knock back a few beers.

[LOUISSSSS]

After reading this thread, I just bought a PA 120.3 before they all disappear. I have no use for it now as my PA 120.2 is just fine, but I just doubt we'll see very many rads top these. I think of thermocchills rads as the 426 Hemi.

why? there are other options in the market... there are ones that perform better than it at low speed fans if u wnat quiet, and one that performs better than it at high speed fans. where the PA excels (mid range?) it may not be really worth it over the cheaper RX360

[skinnee]

its not about what performs better with the true PA's coming to end...its about owning a classic.

[Waterlogged]

why? there are other options in the market... there are ones that perform better than it at low speed fans if u wnat quiet, and one that performs better than it at high speed fans. where the PA excels (mid range?) it may not be really worth it over the cheaper RX360

I have a PA120.1 and I recently got a RX120, the difference in build quality is....well, obvious. The RX simply feels like a BIP or BIX, the TC feels like the Cadillac of rads. I also have a BIP that was the first rad I ever owned, it's now 6 years old and it looks about 20. My PA is ~4 and with a few exceptions I inflected upon it, it looks almost the same as the day I pulled it out of the box.

[LOUISSSSS]

its not about what performs better with the true PA's coming to end...its about owning a classic.

oh i guess i'm too new to the WC scene to feel this kind of stuff... i have been in the pc scene for some years and dont feel like buying a new x1900xt(x) now or a new 8800gtx now just for the heck of owning it because they were classics =\

maybe w/ water cooling the feeling is different...


I have a PA120.1 and I recently got a RX120, the difference in build quality is....well, obvious. The RX simply feels like a BIP or BIX, the TC feels like the Cadillac of rads. I also have a BIP that was the first rad I ever owned, it's now 6 years old and it looks about 20. My PA is ~4 and with a few exceptions I inflected upon it, it looks almost the same as the day I pulled it out of the box.

what exactly about the two makes one better quality? the paint coming off? the fins bending? i thought the interior materials were similar (copper?)

[Waterlogged]

what exactly about the two makes one better quality? the paint coming off? the fins bending? i thought the interior materials were similar (copper?)

Honestly, from what I can tell, they are made from exactly the same materials, even the steel fan mounts. The TC just feels hand made while the XSPC feels like it was made by a machine. Every rad will have problems with bending fins if they are handled roughly, as for the paint "problems" with the TC, I consider it part of their "character". I could care less if they were painted or not as paint only harms thermal transfer.

[skinnee]

oh i guess i'm too new to the WC scene to feel this kind of stuff... i have been in the pc scene for some years and dont feel like buying a new x1900xt(x) now or a new 8800gtx now just for the heck of owning it because they were classics =\

maybe w/ water cooling the feeling is different...



Whoa, whoa, whoa there hair trigger. Was not saying you wouldn't understand, I posted my thoughts on the purchase made by Nemesis which you replied to.

The hardware analogy does not truly work for raditators. Performance advantages between CPU and GPU platforms are 10%-30% gain over the previous, this is not the case with radiators. Look at the old PA, the percentage of gain the other radiators have over it are very small. The PA was the answer to the LC community's prayers and one that really came from the roots of the community. Same reason why you see Cathar's G Series blocks selling on ebay for 3-5x their original retail price.

[HotGore]

It is sad to see water cooling testing being done the same way that air coolers are tested. It seems like we have to go to the German forums to see some half decent tests. There are still some darn good testers here, but it isn't the same...

[skinnee]

It is sad to see water cooling testing being done the same way that air coolers are tested. It seems like we have to go to the German forums to see some half decent tests. There are still some darn good testers here, but it isn't the same...

Could you ellaborate on this a bit more? I'm trying to figure out what information/procedures/variables you have in mind.

[LOUISSSSS]

I have a PA120.1 and I recently got a RX120, the difference in build quality is....well, obvious. The RX simply feels like a BIP or BIX, the TC feels like the Cadillac of rads. I also have a BIP that was the first rad I ever owned, it's now 6 years old and it looks about 20. My PA is ~4 and with a few exceptions I inflected upon it, it looks almost the same as the day I pulled it out of the box.


Whoa, whoa, whoa there hair trigger. Was not saying you wouldn't understand, I posted my thoughts on the purchase made by Nemesis which you replied to.

The hardware analogy does not truly work for raditators. Performance advantages between CPU and GPU platforms are 10%-30% gain over the previous, this is not the case with radiators. Look at the old PA, the percentage of gain the other radiators have over it are very small. The PA was the answer to the LC community's prayers and one that really came from the roots of the community. Same reason why you see Storm's selling on ebay for 3-5x their original retail price.

i see so i see that there is some emotions from the older WC community attached to this radiator. its understandable since it's such a long time winner, and a huge winner when it first came out...

[Hondacity]

i love those pa 120.3s :yepp:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c5/hondacity25/P1010379.jpg

[HotGore]

Could you ellaborate on this a bit more? I'm trying to figure out what information/procedures/variables you have in mind.

Usually it is just a few bits missing here and there. Sometimes the ambient temp is not recorded throughout the test. Rads are sometimes tested with only "High CFM" and "Low CFM" fans instead of a whole mix, push/pull, high flow/low flow, number of tests, block mounting direction, different sized barbs not tested, etc.

!Warning Rant Below!

This isn't a knock against you or anyone else who does testing. A lot of times it just a few things missing, and I can competently understand since testing water cooling parts can be very long and difficult. I just seems water cooling testing throughout the community has been more focused on temperature comparisons. Sure it is important but so are all the other variables. Building a water cooling loop is a combination of a whole bunch of components each affecting the loop differently.

It seems like we are getting less and less information now. It is a big rush to get out results right away as it seems new blocks are coming out all the time. Corners get cut. For every part that comes out, when the testing is done we see improvements of just a few degrees at best. We are not seeing and real big revolutions now. It feels as if water cooling has peaked performance wise. Both water and air cooling at stuck at the same spot. The playing field hasn't really shifted all that much in the past 2-3 years.

All of this is the result of water cooling getting more and more mainstream. TT brought out junk that was cheap, "worked," and had the water cooling buzz word on it. More and more people don't want to be bother at looking over lots of testing results of different things that make no sense or seem arbitrary. This makes testing results just accepted instead of thoroughly looked over by the majority. People want to build their rigs right now, have the best, and not have to worry about evolving them to get better performance, and taking the time to research all the basics of water cooling.

But because this is getting more and more mainstream we see great competition from all over. More blocks have been released by more companies in the past year at greater availability. Maybe this is just water cooling really coming into its own.

/rant

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

I think its bull that the testing going on right now is not sufficient for what we need.....

variables are monitored and testing is done on real world hardware. I think its all overblown about what kind of exacting performance you need for PC watercooling.... I mean we are all limited by ambient no? you aren't gonna get better overclocks from a 45c load versus 55c load temps because that's just the way silicon works - it needs to be subzero temps before you can start to break through the wall of over-ambient clocking.

[HESmelaugh]

It is sad to see water cooling testing being done the same way that air coolers are tested. It seems like we have to go to the German forums to see some half decent tests. There are still some darn good testers here, but it isn't the same...

It seems really weird to me that you say this here, on a forum that boasts Skinnee and Martinm210...

I frequent German forums and I have never seen more rigorous testing done anywhere than the two aforementioned deliver. Believe me, I am asking out of genuine curiosity: Can you please link to such test that you deem more thorough?

[Martinm210]

IMHO,

I do miss some of the creativity and craftsmanship that went on back in the days, especially the custom blocks and heatercore setups. Those were the days when "If you wanted something", "You had to build it yourself". That's not nearly as necessary anymore, but there's still alot of creativity and fun to be had.

Regarding testing, I've always felt like this:

Anyone that has a beef with testing or anyone's test results has one person to blame. Look in the mirror!:eek::D

It doesn't take alot of money or skill or time to do some testing. ANYONE can test, and there are TONs of people willing to help you with any questions you might have.:yepp: Bottom line, you can always testing things yourself, and I personally get a little frustrated when I see folks burning up hours and hours of energy complaining about someone elses work while they sit there and do nothing to contribute.

I think it's a bit far to say if you loose anyone person or tester, that there's no more ability to learn or improve upon the existing. The world will always continue to turn and there's an underlying reason why many folks enjoy testing....there's always something new to learn and share that hasn't been covered before as new products continue to roll out in the market. There is no end...until you've given up.

So, here's a big cheers to testing, and that goes for anyone at any level. Some of us are bean counters and like the details of how you get there, and some of us favor more results oriented types of testing. There's no one RIGHT way to test, no one perfect means to convey the information to everyone's understanding, and no one perfect test to simulate every condition. So here's a cheers to testing...strength in numbers and that's "Numbers of Testers" not numbers of any "One".:up::welcome:

[Haltech]

Wow, this is a real bummer to see this happening. I would also like to thank Marci for posting on the situation, rather then hearsay from 20 people and getting the story all twisted up.

Ive seen watercooling really transform since using one of the first systems on my Athlon Slot A in 1999... then in 2000 when pro-cooling took off and the madness began. Ive got a collection of Cathar blocks, including the G4. ive debated about selling them actually, but they hold some sentimental value for me.

Ive been sending stuff off to China for manufacturing for high perf car applications. As long as your manf adheres to spec's and you double check each shipment to insure things are being done correctly, you can beat the pricing subbing it out to them.

[WaterFlex]

Good to hear

[HESmelaugh]

... ANYONE can test, and there are TONs of people willing to help you with any questions you might have.

...strength in numbers and that's "Numbers of Testers" not numbers of any "One".:up::welcome:

Very well said. Couldn't agree more. :)

[HotGore]

Now I didn't mean mean my post to knock testers, nor hurt anyone's feelings. I am GREATLY appreciative of all the testers out there. You testers do a wonderful job, and I really can't thank you enough. I am just nit picky when it comes to variables. I do water cooling as a fun hobby, something I can be creative with and try different things. I like to see all the variables tested out because I like to great loops in the best possible configs I can. It isn't really about overclocking results, it is about building the best possible loop that you can. It is a kind of challenge and half the fun is just researching for me. Any solid information that any tests provides is valuable.

XS does have some of the best testers currently around. Problem is that there are many tests that are posted as more quick comparisons between blocks that happen at the launch of the block. Not all the information is really listed about the test, but that is the price we pay for speed. I just like to be through, but that is just me :|

Really what is happening is that we are seeing a major transition from water cooling being a niche where only a elite few have setups to a more mainstream cooling solution. More components are coming out faster then ever before, and it seems like every other week there is a new FC block for a video card from a bunch of different companies. We are really at a big transition for our hobby.

What I think we will begin to see is teams of testers, much like the review teams at most sites. It is far to expensive time wise, and money wise to test ever new FC block in different configurations. That is just FC blocks and not to mention all the new blocks, pumps and radiators we are seeing. These teams will have to be very specific about variables and simulate the same environment over all the testers so we can really create a large database of easy to access information for newbies, and experienced people. Once testers start to team up I think that will be a major paradigm shift for water cooling.

You might be saying that this would be like any other major review site around. The issue with that is these sites tend to be testing everything under the sun, don't have the time to really test the new WC gear that is out there. When they get around to it they typically just review kits, or do unsatisfactory tests. I have seen far too many reviews of sites using Corsair WC gear or some other kit to do their tests with. I think if we can combine some great people together into a testing super team we can really see not only fast results, but also done using a common testing methodology with similar if not equal conditions.

TL;DR: I <3 <3 <3 WC testers. Lets create testing super teams!

[LogAn'sRun]

man, sure is great to see Marci back, even if it is a guest appearance. Don't know if I ever got to thanking you over at the OCUK forum, but thanks for helping me out back when with all my noob questions.

[DarthBeavis]

Now I didn't mean mean my post to knock testers, nor hurt anyone's feelings. I am GREATLY appreciative of all the testers out there. You testers do a wonderful job, and I really can't thank you enough. I am just nit picky when it comes to variables. I do water cooling as a fun hobby, something I can be creative with and try different things. I like to see all the variables tested out because I like to great loops in the best possible configs I can. It isn't really about overclocking results, it is about building the best possible loop that you can. It is a kind of challenge and half the fun is just researching for me. Any solid information that any tests provides is valuable.

XS does have some of the best testers currently around. Problem is that there are many tests that are posted as more quick comparisons between blocks that happen at the launch of the block. Not all the information is really listed about the test, but that is the price we pay for speed. I just like to be through, but that is just me :|

Really what is happening is that we are seeing a major transition from water cooling being a niche where only a elite few have setups to a more mainstream cooling solution. More components are coming out faster then ever before, and it seems like every other week there is a new FC block for a video card from a bunch of different companies. We are really at a big transition for our hobby.

What I think we will begin to see is teams of testers, much like the review teams at most sites. It is far to expensive time wise, and money wise to test ever new FC block in different configurations. That is just FC blocks and not to mention all the new blocks, pumps and radiators we are seeing. These teams will have to be very specific about variables and simulate the same environment over all the testers so we can really create a large database of easy to access information for newbies, and experienced people. Once testers start to team up I think that will be a major paradigm shift for water cooling.

You might be saying that this would be like any other major review site around. The issue with that is these sites tend to be testing everything under the sun, don't have the time to really test the new WC gear that is out there. When they get around to it they typically just review kits, or do unsatisfactory tests. I have seen far too many reviews of sites using Corsair WC gear or some other kit to do their tests with. I think if we can combine some great people together into a testing super team we can really see not only fast results, but also done using a common testing methodology with similar if not equal conditions.

TL;DR: I <3 <3 <3 WC testers. Lets create testing super teams!

you sure get lippy ever since you invented the intraweb. guess it went to your head :ROTF:

[HotGore]

you sure get lippy ever since you invented the intraweb. guess it went to your head :ROTF:

I swear I will turn it off!!!!

[Sadasius]

I swear I will turn it off!!!!

NO!!! :shocked:

[Marci]

Think I've stirred up a minor :banana::banana::banana::banana:-storm here on the testing comments, so I'll clarify my position on what I meant...

The testing done here in the community is plenty good enough to assist end-users to make informed decisions on what will perform best under a given set of variables, but the level of accuracy of the measurement equipment used, and complete reproduceability of the results to the same precision isn't enough for a manufacturer to use to make thoroughly informed predictions (fortunately/unfortunately depending how u look at it). When BillA captured data he usually aimed for 4 decimal place accuracy iirc on all figures. Air measured at every quadrant of each fan, and the disturbance produced by the positioning of the probes accounted for. Turbulence and resistance in flow created by flow measuring equipment all accounted for and effects negated via the appropriate formula. The resultant data gave you enough to attack things from a mathematical standpoint. You could define a set of characteristics (material, fpi, # of rows, # of tubes per row, size of tubes, size of endtanks etc) of a theoretical radiator, and deduce it's theoretical performance using maths without it ever existing in the first place. Once you'd done a few number crunching sessions tweaking various parameters, you could spot which was the most likely to get the desired performance results. These would all be recrunched and verified mathematically by several people to confirm that nothing had been overlooked (I recall Les and Cathar tossing figures backwards and forwards for weeks over the PA120 design - Cathar doing maths and formulae in excel, Les plugging them into CFD software - FloTherm I think - to confirm and tweak). Once they were sure that the simulated radiator was correct and produced sufficiently convincing simulated results, we'd make one... and then Cathar'd do his best to test it to see how close it came to the mathematical model. Any necessary tweaks were then done to pull any obscureness into line. Another prototype made to confirm those... data captured again, and then reverse engineered to ensure it matched the formulae used to simulate the design in the first place. THEN the design heads into production. What we were using figures for vs what most here use figures for are wildly different really, so what I consider useable testing data vs what others do is slightly different. I won't ever profess to being a tester myself. I only ever measured to 2 decimal place accuracy at best and even then lacked the environmental controls. BillA however had everything, including a windtunnel/environmental chamber when it came to the PA120 production test data...

We effectively helped to support a community with physical confirmation of their ideas...

These days, from what I can tell, rad manufacturers are shooting fish in a barrel when it comes to what is needed to improve performance. Wider tubes and lower fin counts and thicker cores seem to be the order of the day... which was kind of obvious when folks saw how the PAs performed vs everyone else's denser / thinner radiators... the designs that are springing out now from others were just natural steps... eventually, this approach will level out and most top end rads will perform within 0.01% of each other - when they all get to the point where FPI can't be lowered any further (when structural integrity is crippled / reduced thermal capacity rules out the usefulness of such a rad), and thickness of the total core is as thick as it can get in use with the fans of the day...

Once that point is reached, severe innovation will be required to create anything substantially better than anything else (Cathar said this from day one)... The PA series went against what was considered conventional at the time in terms of sheer size etc. The HE120.3 was the first triple fan radiator available, the thickest available, and the densest available when it came to FPI. The PA was the thickest radiator available, with the lowest FPI on the market - as low as we could physically produce at the time. The PA160 was an oddball mould breaker, aimed for silence fanatics more than anything else. Our PA140 prototype and the rumours that surrounded it encouraged other manufacturers to try and get theirs out first and to take a step out of their comfort zones... which inevitably led to an acceptance in the characteristics of the PA series from those who were originally nay-sayers... and now such companies are producing their own variants...

Whilst making radiators eternally larger will give performance boosts (ie: 120.4... 140... 160... 140.4), it's how they perform PER FAN that's the key... improving the efficiency of the radiator over a targetted range of air and liquid flow. If per fan efficiency is increased 5% over the nearest competition, then on a x3 format radiator, that's a 15% improvement over the competition. S'good to be able to sit back and see where everyone else is prepared to take things... see who will think out of the box and take it to the next step in performance, and how they go about getting there.

Look to the community - find the guys who KNOW what they're talking about, and listen to them... s'all I ever really did as an individual enthusiast, and within my role at Thermochill.

[kinghong1970]

Marci,

thanks... reading your post gives me a new appreciation of the PA120.3.
it seems that it is the radiator that is born out of passion, grown with dedication and tremendous effort...

sad that this is not the case with many of today's products.

we live in a world where everything is "commercially" driven... not to sidetrack much but even in my industry (fashion), we see many labels that are just commercial products with a premium price tag just because of the name... no passion in them...

i think, instead of using the PA120.3, maybe i should frame it and put it along the wall of products that i admire... some vintage fashion pieces and whatnot...

[Marci]

i kinda don't understand the point of g3/8 threads because everyone uses a converter to bring it down to g1/4.
No, EVERYONE doesn't, just the majority, and they do so for convenience to get the fittings they want for the hose size they want. But back when the HE was produced, many people were using 3/4" ID hose, and to do this REQUIRES G3/8" ports as you can't get 3/4" barbs on a G1/4" base.. The OD of the barb is wider than the OD of the threads, so the radiator suddenly becomes a major restriction to flow. G3/8" fittings back when the PA120 was released still offered significant performance increases over the same fittings with a G1/4" thread - you had a shorter section of reduced diameter to flow thru (significant to me is probably a much smaller margin than what others may consider significant). Back then folks weren't producing slightly oversized overbored fatboy barbs... now that such barbs are available (ie: the arguments all this created encouraged manufacturers to put more thought into their G1/4" fittings to bring them up to similar performance levels as folks were getting with good G3/8 fittings with the added tradeoff that they outperformed other brand G1/4 fittings who hadn't done any real work on them from a performance standpoint). So, now you have G1/4 fittings designed for performance, the necessity for G3/8 threads is severely reduced. You can always adapt a big hole down... neatly... but it's much harder to do the opposite without resulting in a protruding mess of converters, which just hurt performance even more.

Would you all be bitterly disgusted with me if I were to say I know use a 1.6Ghz Sony Vaio laptop for everything and it runs at stock all day long...?

As you can probably tell, I'm STILL a stoner, and I still waffle on with the best of them tho...

[DarthBeavis]

Marci don't you get to a point of diminishing returns anyways? That really is the bottom line.

[G-UNIT91]

No, EVERYONE doesn't, just the majority, and they do so for convenience to get the fittings they want for the hose size they want. But back when the HE was produced, many people were using 3/4" ID hose, and to do this REQUIRES G3/8" ports as you can't get 3/4" barbs on a G1/4" base.. The OD of the barb is wider than the OD of the threads, so the radiator suddenly becomes a major restriction to flow. G3/8" fittings back when the PA120 was released still offered significant performance increases over the same fittings with a G1/4" thread - you had a shorter section of reduced diameter to flow thru (significant to me is probably a much smaller margin than what others may consider significant). Back then folks weren't producing slightly oversized overbored fatboy barbs... now that such barbs are available (ie: the arguments all this created encouraged manufacturers to put more thought into their G1/4" fittings to bring them up to similar performance levels as folks were getting with good G3/8 fittings with the added tradeoff that they outperformed other brand G1/4 fittings who hadn't done any real work on them from a performance standpoint). So, now you have G1/4 fittings designed for performance, the necessity for G3/8 threads is severely reduced. You can always adapt a big hole down... neatly... but it's much harder to do the opposite without resulting in a protruding mess of converters, which just hurt performance even more.

Would you all be bitterly disgusted with me if I were to say I know use a 1.6Ghz Sony Vaio laptop for everything and it runs at stock all day long...?

As you can probably tell, I'm STILL a stoner, and I still waffle on with the best of them tho...

Hi Marci!

new thermochill rads?:)

[Marci]

Yep... and we get ever closer to it... when that point is reached for every components when matched together, you have the utopia of watercooling. That's what drives us all - s'why we're here. Have we hit the line? What do we do to find out? What do we need to find out? Once you've got to that point, THEN start making it look pretty... cos then it's worth it...

We all thought that line was hit LONG ago... The G4 waterblock was it... but then the majority were focussed on MORE items in a system... more blocks... and the G4 held that back due to it's restriction. The needs of the scene changed, and so blocks like the FuZion were born and the Apogee... new direction... and the line has moved.


new thermochill rads?

Exactly... XSPC have listened to the needs of the community and are adapting things to suit. It's what needed doing... redesign the product to fit those needs. Compensate for the changes in the performance. They're perfectly up to the task, and have the drive to that we once had... . As the line moves, you gotta follow it...

[The Nemesis]

Yep... and we get ever closer to it... when that point is reached for every components when matched together, you have the utopia of watercooling. That's what drives us all - s'why we're here. Have we hit the line? What do we do to find out? What do we need to find out? Once you've got to that point, THEN start making it look pretty... cos then it's worth it...

We all thought that line was hit LONG ago... The G4 waterblock was it... but then the majority were focussed on MORE items in a system... more blocks... and the G4 held that back due to it's restriction. The needs of the scene changed, and so blocks like the FuZion were born and the Apogee... new direction... and the line has moved.

I was wondering the other day if my swiftech Storm could handle an i7 better than the current offerings if it were in a loop by itself. Now I guess I'll just have to see.

[Mech0z]

Well I hope we see the PA120.4 soon, sounded like they where in production when this message was posted, just hope it lands price wise between the 120.3 and the rx480 in uk :)

[DarthBeavis]

Yep... and we get ever closer to it... when that point is reached for every components when matched together, you have the utopia of watercooling. That's what drives us all - s'why we're here. Have we hit the line? What do we do to find out? What do we need to find out? Once you've got to that point, THEN start making it look pretty... cos then it's worth it...

We all thought that line was hit LONG ago... The G4 waterblock was it... but then the majority were focussed on MORE items in a system... more blocks... and the G4 held that back due to it's restriction. The needs of the scene changed, and so blocks like the FuZion were born and the Apogee... new direction... and the line has moved.



Exactly... XSPC have listened to the needs of the community and are adapting things to suit. It's what needed doing... redesign the product to fit those needs. Compensate for the changes in the performance. They're perfectly up to the task, and have the drive to that we once had... . As the line moves, you gotta follow it...

great . . . now you have me thinking performance again . . .arg. Well, I have a 480 rad here to use in the HTPC build I guess. Now to worry about the right fans. As a dedication to Marci, I will use black NON LED Yate Loons! RLY. All D12SM-12s on a Feser 480 cooling an Asus Rampage II Gene and an Xbox 360. I wonder if I can get a good loop going using Koolance manifolds?

[HESmelaugh]

Marci, #95 was a truly great read. Thanks for that. :)

[nikhsub1]

These days, from what I can tell, rad manufacturers are shooting fish in a barrel when it comes to what is needed to improve performance.
Your vision is 20/20 my friend.

Look to the community - find the guys who KNOW what they're talking about, and listen to them... s'all I ever really did as an individual enthusiast, and within my role at Thermochill.
No disrespect to anyone but, there are no Cathars, BillAs or Les types around anymore, that was truly a special time of development and growth in the water cooling lunatic fringe. I am glad I was witness to it.

Marci don't you get to a point of diminishing returns anyways? That really is the bottom line.
Of course, you can say this about ANYTHING. That should not stop us from trying to make everything better.


I was wondering the other day if my swiftech Storm could handle an i7 better than the current offerings if it were in a loop by itself. Now I guess I'll just have to see.
No, don't bother. I guess everyone forgets I did lots a testing at one point in time. The cooling patch and design of the Storm is no good for IHS based CPU's.

[nikhsub1]

you missed stephan an others
Lot's of others, I only mentioned who Marci mentioned in his #95 post... there are MANY more.

[DarthBeavis]

Of course, you can say this about ANYTHING. That should not stop us from trying to make everything better.


I did not mean us I meant vendors who have to spend their precious R & D dollars. Making changes to products for small improvements in performance makes no sense unless it will make a big difference in differentiating their product. If you look at the test results we do have you will see no vendor has managed to differentiate themselves in a large way in terms of performance for waterblocks or radiators. I deal with all sorts of vendors not only from water-cooling but also the companies that make your GPUS, CPUs, etc so I get to hear things from their perspective. It makes you see things in a different light (sort of a reality check).

[kinghong1970]

i've never met Cathar, BillA responded to couple of my questions on another forum... found him quite sincere and very informative... patient too...
being a late bloomer in this "hobby", i guess i really missed the "golden age" of discoveries and developments... before everything became so commercialized...

but one thing that i still do see is potential... some of these folks who are so young and yet have so much skill...
rather comparing them to those of the past and pointing out the differences as a shortcoming... perhaps some guidance or advice such that the "differences" become a goal for such enthusiasts...

not pointing fingers... but there is, in my honest opinion, passion in the art of watercooling... or the science of water cooling...

even the wisest words falls on deaf ears when it comes out of a horse's arse....

just felt that i needed to say this... just seems we're too quick to pass judgement these days...

[Waterlogged]

No disrespect to anyone but, there are no Cathars, BillAs or Les types around anymore, that was truly a special time of development and growth in the water cooling lunatic fringe. I am glad I was witness to it.

I too am honored to have caught the glimpses of those days that I did when I was just starting in '03. I still go back to ProCooling every now and then and just pick random old topics to sift through....good stuff.

[Marci]

I was fortunate to go thru many golden ages of our scene... in my early days 12 (?? my concept of time is warped possibly... I'm not applying much thought here) years back I was in the hands of Icee, Oppainter and Macci learning the art of overclocking and voltmods with SlotA Athlons via GFDs, and s462 Thunderbirds and heater-repair fluid. 10 years back I was soaking up everything Bowman and the gang were doing with phasechange, thru the birth of ChipCon finally advancing the work of Kryotherm and Asetek that had gone oh-so-stale, and strapping that onto my Palomino and Thoroughbred B's... all spanning the golden age of AMD and overclocking potential becoming a commercial prospect. 8 years back I was priviledged enough to witness Innovatek introduce mass-watercooling to Europe, and the battle between US 1/2" thinking from DD, Swiftech and BeCooling, and German 8mm thinking. Intel returning to overclocking dominance with the C2D's (myself having come into overclocking too late to enjoy the dominance of the P3-533), and thru that phase I was thoroughly in the hands of Cathar, BillA, Les and all the others who were influencing the watercooling scene then. Before all of that I started out aged 4 on a ZX Spectrum 48k... aged 8 on a 16Mhz 286 and working up thru 386sx25's, 486dx66's, P90s, P120s... I remember once I'd gotten my first job in a plant manufacturing external storage chassis (JMR) buying one of the first P200MMXs in the country having gotten sick of my Cyrix 166... just as I discovered the joys of the net growing out of inaccessible BBS's (let's face it no parent with sense back then would allow a 12 year old a modem and free access to bulletin boards - the phone bills would've been HORRENDOUS)... fumbled with a few K6-2 450s, and the very manky first generation of Slot1 P3's... then finally fell into all of this with the SlotA Athlon 750. Fixed-price use-as-much-as-u-like dialup access being brought to our doors by BlueYonder & Cable & Wireless - and then all of a sudden someone mentions 128kb broadband - finally we can get the speed of ISDN without the evil prices... and the net was available to all. I owned an original Voodoo card - witnessed the invention of 3D accelerators and the battle of opengl as MS brought in DirectX... the Matrox Mystique and Millennium slaughtering everything.... and then sinking back into multi-display / video editing as they missed the plot massively... the birth of 3DMark in 98... saw the fall of 3DFX and the birth of the Geforce, prompting ATI to pull it's finger out and abandon it's idiotic drive for onboard graphics and finally move into gaming with the Radeon...

Golden ages come and go... generally with large gaps of monotony in between... but I was fortunate to be around as a lot of progress was made over a memorable chunk of time that obviously had a significant impact on my life, with very little monotony. Inevitably progress slows as gains are harder to find, but eventually the next revelation is stumbled upon and shakes everything up again. In the meantime some of us get older, priorities change, folks move on... but there's always been new guys coming in to the scene.

I'm clueless these days - completely out of touch with what's hot n' what's not. Being out of the scene for such a small amount of time means you miss so much, so developments still move at pace... they always will. If one side of things goes stale, it's only because it's waiting for a shift somewhere else to allow it to evolve. Just turn attention to where things are moving for a while...

No need to lose faith...

Now I've got a 5 year old sat beside me, and I'm wondering what's going to capture his imagination and shape and form him thru his journey to adulthood *shrug* /me looks with hope at the motorbike

(dunno how I managed to type all of that - having to use ctrl-v to paste in any o's as that key is bust on my laptop!)

EDIT: My join date on here reflects none of this due to a database :banana::banana::banana::banana:up here at XS many moons back before it was under fugger's care that meant everyone had to reregister... a lot of good stuff vanished into the ether unfortunately... even XS has gone thru it's phases of change and growth... as it passed hands from one set of guys to another.

[DarthBeavis]

Marci you sound like an old foggie . . . .at least you can over-clock your scooter chair still ;)

http://www.electroease.com/ramp-scooter-EP3202-lift-chair.jpg

[twwen2]

I read these forums for years before actually signing up, i still remember Cathar's thread when he dropped the bomb concerning just how little tubing sizes really mattered. In a time where 1/2"ID tubing ruled the US w/c scene, the (albeit theoretical) difference between 1/2 and 1/4 ID was a fraction of a degree IIRC...

I think you're right marci, this hobby might be getting a bit stale in the developments arena, but something will come along sooner or later to mix things up once again. And the motorbike should take care of the son! :yepp:

[Mech0z]

I must say that I am more happy about the market now (When buying right now) than the old one, now you can buy some stuff and easily upgrade from various vendors. I remember being buying a Innovatek 2 x 5.25 bay all in one solution, that was crap and alu (only alu though) then going away from the "complete solution", but still innovateks. And now I have this GIANT radiator that allthough not have many fins, did a very good job a passive cooling my computer, it was made of alu and therefore not useable in future systems (If I didnt buy innovatek) which meant keeping h2o would mean getting a whole new set of items, so I stayed away from watercooling for 4 years (Will return in a month or 2.

Now I can buy something and propberly upgrade it in 2 years and just change my cpu cooler or gfx cooler and it will fit and work perfectly (Unless we see some major breakthrough in something I cant predict) and this is very nice for me, because even though its a cool hobby and its nice to change gear often, I simply cant afford to do that, so I like the new market, but ofc. I hope the market keeps evolving, but withing the standards we have now as I cant see any big reason to go away from those.

Hope this rant made sense :o

[Marci]

Marci you sound like an old foggie

When it comes to the domestic computer n' such, I guess I kind of am... Time to catch up on the other things I should have been doing in my youth when I was locked in my bedroom infront of a black n' white TV with a Speccy n' a tape player strapped to it playing Manic Miner n' Horis Goes Skiing, or a box o' lego... my homebrew elderberry wine is now known as the Wine of Mass Destruction. I also make a mean fruitcake... and not forgetting the pre-mid-life motorbike crisis ;)

My god. I'm 31. What am I saying???!

[dreamaxx]

I think it's time to get a hair cut and get a real job ;) haha just joking.

Interesting reads on here. Who knew watercooling was around 20 years ago :P

[DarthBeavis]

Cathar's thread when he dropped the bomb concerning just how little tubing sizes really mattered

newsflash: All guys say that

[rocket733]

newsflash: All guys say that

But he had empirical data to back it up...