Auzentech X-Fi Forte Available Now

[safan80]

http://www.guru3d.com/news/auzentech-xfi-forte-available-now/

click the link at the bottom for pics!


By Hilbert Hagedoorn, January 21, 2009 -

Santa Clara, CA — Auzentech, Inc., a provider of quality consumer electronics products, is pleased to announce the official release of the Auzen X-Fi™ Forte 7.1 soundcard.

The Auzen X-Fi™ Forte 7.1 is the first Low Profile native PCI Express® audio card that Auzentech has designed especially for gamers and audiophiles. Compared to the X-Fi™ chipset reference design, the Auzen X-Fi™ Forte 7.1 has improved circuitry and components. The Auzen X-Fi™ Forte 7.1 marks the first time the Creative X-Fi™ Native PCI Express chipset has been available in a low-profile board, as well as the first time it has been available in a a third-party soundcard.

* Low Profile Audio Card
* Developed around Creative X-Fi Native PCI Express audio processor
* Support for Dolby Digital Live for Windows XP and Vista
* Support for DTS Neo:PC & DTS Interactive for Vista
* Low-profile and standard-profile brackets included.

More info here (http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_forte.php).


I added my picture of the Forte vs the original creative X-fi FPS.

you guys might want to check the manual for the card take a look at page 6


HD Audio Front Panel
Connect Intel® HD Audio compliance Front panel cable, and can use Microphone input and
Headphone output. Can also be connected to the X-Fi I/O drive.

[IcY18]

How does this compare to the ASUS Xonar Essence STX, besides price $200 vs. $150 (Forte) ?

[safan80]

How does this compare to the ASUS Xonar Essence STX, besides price $200 vs. $150 (Forte) ?

I've read that the Xonar has some issues in games.. the biggest thing that I don't like about the Xonar the software doesn't auto switch between the headphones and speakers... there's also a lot of complaints on Asus' forums about the Xonar cards.

check out the Auzen X-Fi HomeTheater HD
http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_hometheater_hd.php

edit: what's with the header on the card? SLI sound cards.

[IcY18]

Hmm, well the Essence is a new Xonar card so i'll hold judgement.

[safan80]

Hmm, well the Essence is a new Xonar card so i'll hold judgement.

it's bound to have lag like the other Xonar cards since it's still not native pci-e. I suggest you look at the asus forums and see how their drive support is going.

[rusty]

why would one buy creative ? Creative support is total sh...t on any level.

[Bojamijams]

For headphones and 2 channel speakers, the STX is king. Nobody can match its SnR and THD quality. Not to mention, it actually includes an EMI shield so the computer electical noise doesn't mess with your sound. Its also powered by a separate molex instead of a noisy pci-e bus. Which Auzentech (claimining to be audiophile, as if) still don't include on any of their cards (emi or clean molex power)

For 5.1, this would be better though I still wouldn't use it as an 'audiophile' card due to lack of EMI shield.

However I've come from the prelude and the :banana::banana::banana::banana: that is creative drivers is still prevalent and an issue. After 2 hours of playing any games, my audiodg.exe (or something like that) would be at about 900mb of usage. It took them 3 months to finally acknowledge this is an issue. Of course they can't do anything until Creative does it. Well I got sick of waiting and moved to the STX. There is no number to quantify how much happier I am with the STX then the prelude.

And it has NO issues with any games I play.

[safan80]

why would one buy creative ? Creative support is total sh...t on any level.

3rd party driver support has grown since the Daniel_k incident. Daniel_K even returned and is doing driver releases again.

[Donnie27]

why would one buy creative ? Creative support is total sh...t on any level.

Auzen X-Fi™ Forte 7.1

Pro.
safan80 is right and YouP_Pax drivers work well as well. Asus Xonar is software based and will always cause lag or latency. See it as the CPU emulating a Sound Card LOL! Its pretty good for a HTPC sound card.

I've not needed Creative's support in a long time but when I did, I got it. I didn't get support from AMD, Intel, Asus, Gygabyte, IBM, Power Color, Seagate and a host of others. I'd not have a computer if I held screw ups or rip-offs against them all and boycotted=P.

Con
Costs too much.

[NaMcO]

Wow, card looks absolutely stunning! Hope it performs as it looks.

[Bojamijams]

Btw, quad cores (and dual cores at 3.8ghz+) have no issues emulating EAX (not that anyone is going to care about this in 6 months) through software as they're all very under-utilized in most games.

[IcY18]

I play a number of games(Crysis,TF2,COD5, L4D) but i also have a generous library of music. I listen to music every minute I'm on the computer.
I feel my situation is one typical of many computer enthusiasts, they enjoy both games and music, and it seems there hasn't been a soundcard, that seems like an obvious choice, that meets both these needs.
Either Auzentech's previous audiophile cards didn't support EAX, or Creative's gaming card couldn't match the audio quality of an audiophile card.
Besides BF2142, i'm unsure of the latest games that uses EAX, and having been using an X-Fi XtremeMusic for that last couple years i don't know what it sounds like with limited EAX support.

In the end it basically comes down to which card would serve me better, the Xonar Essence STX or this X-Fi Forte, unfortunately my budget for my build has busted its hold and a $50 difference doesn't mean much at this point.

[eXa]

Do eax even mean anything if u only use 2 channel speakers or headphones?

[Donnie27]

Btw, quad cores (and dual cores at 3.8ghz+) have no issues emulating EAX (not that anyone is going to care about this in 6 months) through software as they're all very under-utilized in most games.

It's not processor speed, it is the speed going to the processor and then back to the sound card through the PCI BUS. The PCI Bus is still lame. Then add Digital to Analog conversion. The PCI-E version adds another problem because it is not Native and has another translation step.

The real problem is Games and some say movies as well but I've not seen that first hand. I have played games with it and sorry, I'd use a Xonar for my HTPC but no ^%#$ing way in my rig where I play games.

EAX is NOT under-utilized and the CPU can't Emu anything above EAX2, no matter how many lies Asus tells. The CPU needs SOFTWARE EAX and even adds latency to OpenAL via the same problem mentioned above. The only folks who don't care are those who are oblivious to what they're missing:up:

[Donnie27]

Do eax even mean anything if u only use 2 channel speakers or headphones?

EAX is KING for Games and Headphones because it offers the best Headphone support for games on the planet. CMSS3D can create realistic 5.1 using even cheap headphones. The better the cans, the more defined the the surround will be of course.

http://www.behardware.com/articles/586-7/creative-labs-x-fi.html


In practice, the X-Fi CMSS 3D works fairly well, but it´s with headphones that we obtained the best results. It is quite frustrating when we have a surround sound card and speakers and are not to able to use them. But headphones often become the only solution late at night with loud action packed movies. This is the time when a good virtualisation algorithm is needed for the most natural surround sound possible. The CMSS 3D succeeds in this area and convinced us much more than the 24 bit Crystalizer.

Movement effects were rendered with many more nuances and we can clearly identify sounds moving from left to right, or diagonally. Height effects are also correctly rendered even if nuances aren’t as optimal as on the horizontal plane. For this point, Creative labs is one length ahead of SRS and Dolby algorithms, which are efficient but only for movies. The latter have large weaknesses in vertical rendering, however.

This works even better for Games!

[Donnie27]

I play a number of games(Crysis,TF2,COD5, L4D) but i also have a generous library of music. I listen to music every minute I'm on the computer.
I feel my situation is one typical of many computer enthusiasts, they enjoy both games and music, and it seems there hasn't been a soundcard, that seems like an obvious choice, that meets both these needs.
Either Auzentech's previous audiophile cards didn't support EAX, or Creative's gaming card couldn't match the audio quality of an audiophile card.
Besides BF2142, i'm unsure of the latest games that uses EAX, and having been using an X-Fi XtremeMusic for that last couple years i don't know what it sounds like with limited EAX support.

In the end it basically comes down to which card would serve me better, the Xonar Essence STX or this X-Fi Forte, unfortunately my budget for my build has busted its hold and a $50 difference doesn't mean much at this point.

Look for a Auzentech Prelude use the Creative DSP and supports EAX 4, DDL DTS, anything meaningful and works great:up: Since their prices are now lower it becomes an even better option. EBay might be an option as well.

[cegras]

I use a DAC with a crossfeed.

[IcY18]

Look for a Auzentech Prelude use the Creative DSP and supports EAX 4, DDL DTS, anything meaningful and works great:up: Since their prices are now lower it becomes an even better option. EBay might be an option as well.

This would be a better option than the Forte?

[tiro_uspsss]

edit: what's with the header on the card? SLI sound cards.

I want to know this to :yepp:

[Donnie27]

I use a DAC with a crossfeed.

Which one, I've only read about them and have ZERO hands on.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/dac-w-crossfeed-258303/


This would be a better option than the Forte?

No, just another alternative. I'd want the others for HDMI support but then you'd need some higher end audio equipment. Not using HDMI I (yes just me) can see little need for it yet! Key word is "yet".



Quote:
Originally Posted by safan80 View Post
edit: what's with the header on the card? SLI sound cards.
I want to know this to

Small one,
1 x 10-pin(5x2) Front audio header with Intel® HD Audio Compatible
Large one!
Creative proprietary AND_EXT, DID_EXE connector for X-Fi I/O driver

Similar to Creative I/O Drives. I think they're still not compatible.

http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_forte.php
http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_hometheater_hd.php

Find ROBSCIX, he's pretty good with this stuff:up:

[safan80]

Small one,
1 x 10-pin(5x2) Front audio header with Intel® HD Audio Compatible
Large one!
Creative proprietary AND_EXT, DID_EXE connector for X-Fi I/O driver





I'm not referring to the two connectors in the back I'm talking about the header on the side.

[Xoulz]

*sigh*

One of the main reason I never got excited about Windows Vista was that is doesn't handle sound in games properly. I play Battlefield 2142 with a THX 5.1 sound system and creative platinum under Windows XP... it's is incredible.

My co-workers and friends always comment on how different the game seems when they watch me play.



So, will Windows 7 change this? Will it natively try to run the sound, or will the sound cards API do it../




.

[IcY18]

Does this card have the ability to pass sound to HDMI video cards?

[cegras]

I'm using a headroom total bithead (sig). I got it quite cheap, well below MSRP, so it's a steal for me.

I've never put a lot of stock into positional audio, but with the crossfeed on and when I turn around and look, positional audio surprisingly works out quite well.

[metachronos]

I noticed that those Auzen cards have headers so you can connect the audio ports on the front of the case to the cards. Do any X-Fi's have this option?

[lowfat]

I'm not referring to the two connectors in the back I'm talking about the header on the side.

I think it is for the analog out header card AFAIK.

*sigh*

One of the main reason I never got excited about Windows Vista was that is doesn't handle sound in games properly. I play Battlefield 2142 with a THX 5.1 sound system and creative platinum under Windows XP... it's is incredible.

My co-workers and friends always comment on how different the game seems when they watch me play.
So, will Windows 7 change this? Will it natively try to run the sound, or will the sound cards API do it../


As long as the game supports the OpenAL standard, hardware acceleration is supported AFAIK.


Does this card have the ability to pass sound to HDMI video cards?


Doubtful, however it isn't going to have any real benefit over the cheap hdmi solutions on videocards anyways. If you want HDMI & HD audio support you'll need to go with the Auzen Home Theatre HD or the Xonar HDAV1.3

[dexman]

yup, it seems that Auzen Home Theatre HD is going to be all-in-one choice. although for music lovers and occasional gamers i would choose Essence STX over Auzentech/Creative any day.

[halo112358]

One of the main reason I never got excited about Windows Vista was that is doesn't handle sound in games properly. I play Battlefield 2142 with a THX 5.1 sound system and creative platinum under Windows XP... it's is incredible.
...
So, will Windows 7 change this? Will it natively try to run the sound, or will the sound cards API do it../
The windows driver model is permanently changed as of Vista, anything in W7 is going to be simple refinement and not major redesign.

There are major benefits to these changes, namely that driver crashes no longer bring down the kernel, but they're outweighed in practice by the reduction in functionality to the end user (hardware accelerated sound basically sucks ass under vista).

Take from that what you will - the driver model change was necessary to bring windows closer to the modern era though this doesn't mean that any of us really like the result much.

[Bradan]

You're totally forgetting Dolby Headphone, which is just a better version of CMSS-3D, and can use 7.1, just like CMSS 3D.

It can also upmix stereo input to surround unlike cmss3d which fails miserably at.

This card seems to lack a ton of substance, seeing as it's intended for the audiophile market. The board is barren to begin with, there is no shielding, no 1/4" outputs, no clean power input, nothing very impressive for the pricetag.

EAX is barely suppourted, other than pretty much battlefield and FEAR.
Also, it seems to lack in the front/rear soundstage very badly for me.

I think a 7.1 Dolby headphone mixup is very satisfying.

Insane SNR though. You can't beat that. :D

I know I'll be getting one soon!

[generics_user]

I noticed that those Auzen cards have headers so you can connect the audio ports on the front of the case to the cards. Do any X-Fi's have this option?

the new x-fi titanium cards have hd_audio headers, they have jack sensoring and automatically switch from the back-ports to the front ones :up:

[tiro_uspsss]

The windows driver model is permanently changed as of Vista, anything in W7 is going to be simple refinement and not major redesign.

There are major benefits to these changes, namely that driver crashes no longer bring down the kernel, but they're outweighed in practice by the reduction in functionality to the end user (hardware accelerated sound basically sucks ass under vista).

Take from that what you will - the driver model change was necessary to bring windows closer to the modern era though this doesn't mean that any of us really like the result much.

mm.. keep in mind tho - the way Vista did video drivers was craptastic: no multiple v.card drivers, however in W7 that changes :up:

[Donnie27]

I'm not referring to the two connectors in the back I'm talking about the header on the side.

My bad! You'd have to find someone like ROBSCIX who knows a lot about this stuff. I think it is to connect straight to a HDMI Video card like the Newer ATI cards that can do HDMI out via the video card. You know the HDMI Audio Out converter connector? But that's what I think, I'm NOT sure.


yup, it seems that Auzen Home Theatre HD is going to be all-in-one choice. although for music lovers and occasional gamers i would choose Essence STX over Auzentech/Creative any day.

I'm not so sure about that one. You can change out the Opamps on the Auzen card and that choice isn't so clear cut.


The windows driver model is permanently changed as of Vista, anything in W7 is going to be simple refinement and not major redesign.

There are major benefits to these changes, namely that driver crashes no longer bring down the kernel, but they're outweighed in practice by the reduction in functionality to the end user (hardware accelerated sound basically sucks ass under vista).

Take from that what you will - the driver model change was necessary to bring windows closer to the modern era though this doesn't mean that any of us really like the result much.

Absolutely QFT!


I think it is for the analog out header card AFAIK.

No, he's talking about the one that looks like a Crossfire or SLI header. I heard pins and that threw me off.



I'm using a headroom total bithead (sig). I got it quite cheap, well below MSRP, so it's a steal for me.

I've never put a lot of stock into positional audio, but with the crossfeed on and when I turn around and look, positional audio surprisingly works out quite well.

DOH! I barely know what they are, I didn't know that was one of them. I've heard good things about this stuff. Just something else I've have to investigate or try!:up:

[kiwi]

why would one buy creative ? Creative support is total sh...t on any level.

Show me a better solution for the price :D

I have no major complaints about x-fi, great gaming card :up:

[Zaskar]

mm.. keep in mind tho - the way Vista did video drivers was craptastic: no multiple v.card drivers, however in W7 that changes :up:

Who does that really effect though, the random person trying to use an old card of a different brand/driver model along with a newer one?


About the sound card, kinds stinks that they finally made a PCI-E soundcard and its some stripped down home theater all in 1 soloution.

[Donnie27]

You're totally forgetting Dolby Headphone, which is just a better version of CMSS-3D, and can use 7.1, just like CMSS 3D.

It can also upmix stereo input to surround unlike cmss3d which fails miserably at.

This card seems to lack a ton of substance, seeing as it's intended for the audiophile market. The board is barren to begin with, there is no shielding, no 1/4" outputs, no clean power input, nothing very impressive for the pricetag.

EAX is barely suppourted, other than pretty much battlefield and FEAR.
Also, it seems to lack in the front/rear soundstage very badly for me.

I think a 7.1 Dolby headphone mixup is very satisfying.

Insane SNR though. You can't beat that. :D

I know I'll be getting one soon!

Separate posts for this reply. Dolby Headphone is NOT good as CMSS3D=P Dolby Headphone can work for Movies because the sounds are Pre rendered. Games are rendered on-the-fly. Using Dolby Headphones can cause more problems than help for Game Surround Sounds and Sound Effects.

EAX isn't a Big deal as Hardware OpenAL that I've NEVER had any problem with going back to Games like America's Army. SNR means NOTHING to or for games. They should invent (or maybe they have and my hillbilly @$$ don't know) measurement for Game sound effects rendered on-the-fly. Crystal clear sounds underwater doesn't sound good, it sucks! Not being able to tell if something is near or far sucks! Not being able to tell if something up or down sucks!

OS's after WinXP are screwed up due to DRM's Protected Paths.


I noticed that those Auzen cards have headers so you can connect the audio ports on the front of the case to the cards. Do any X-Fi's have this option?

The X-Fi XGamer and newer has them. The old X-Fi's had to be Jerry-Rigged.

[dexman]

I'm not so sure about that one. You can change out the Opamps on the Auzen card and that choice isn't so clear cut.
it's down to everyones liking but for me out of the box performance of Essence is clearly a winner for music. you can change opamps on Essence too but majority of people will use their soundcards as they are, no modding.

[RPGWiZaRD]

I would be interesting in trying a new sound card as I've used this same SoundBlaster Audigy since 2001. :D

The reason I haven't upgraded is that the kX Audio 3rd party drivers which have kept me so satisfied I haven't really seen any need of upgrading. The creative drivers sucked a lot IMO, the drivers that came on the CD were quite decent though but the newer drivers got worse and worse so I always quickly changed back to kX Audio drivers. The kX Audio drivers works so great now there's no problems for me at all, ALL games have perfect 3D positional sound even when I'm mostly using my pretty cheap 40~$50 Sennheiser HD 212 Pro headphones and there's a huge difference in quality compared to Creative's drivers, I would say it's like comparing cheap integrated mobo sound cards vs an Audigy back in 2001, ie a noticable difference. It's heavily configurable with all kinds of plugins and makes it sound exactly like you want it to do. I've compared my Audigy + kX Audio drivers with my friends Creative X-Fi card but I actually preferred my Audigy (+ kX Audio drivers). :D

I imagine if really I was to try something new Auzentech would be a good shot and this card isn't too expensive but I'm worried about the software support would turn me down a bit after being "spoiled" with kX Audio drivers. Does Auzentech drivers differ a lot compared to Creative's despite using the "X-Fi" chip? I'm sure a new Auzentech blows my old Audigy card out of water hardware quality wise but with no great software support to back it up, it doesn't matter how good the hardware is.

What Sound card manufacturers would need to do is to hire these interested expirienced coders, of course there's cases were the coders go a bit above the line like Daniel_K perhaps have done in some cases but if they were hired by the company I'm sure they could work something out. The coders would get to do what they're good at but also get paid for it and consumers would enjoy a better product and the company would enjoy better sales. A win-win situation.

[Stanley Pain]

Auzentech cards have treated me well. Had an Xploision and now a Prelude. Excellent sound quality, drivers, etc.

[IcY18]

It seems there is no clear winner between the Essence and the Forte if your a gamer and audiophile, unless anyone else has additional input.

[Stanley Pain]

It seems there is no clear winner between the Essence and the Forte if your a gamer and audiophile, unless anyone else has additional input.


The Forte is the clear winner. Hardware EAX. End of story.

[Donnie27]

it's down to everyones liking but for me out of the box performance of Essence is clearly a winner for music. you can change opamps on Essence too but majority of people will use their soundcards as they are, no modding.

True on all accounts! Even the old Asus card sounded good for Music Playback and Movies. My only knock on them are Game sounds.

[safan80]

For those looking for the 3rd party drivers for their x-fi or Audigy check here: http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board?board.id=soundblaster

[Donnie27]

I would be interesting in trying a new sound card as I've used this same SoundBlaster Audigy since 2001. :D

The reason I haven't upgraded is that the kX Audio 3rd party drivers which have kept me so satisfied I haven't really seen any need of upgrading. The creative drivers sucked a lot IMO, the drivers that came on the CD were quite decent though but the newer drivers got worse and worse so I always quickly changed back to kX Audio drivers. The kX Audio drivers works so great now there's no problems for me at all, ALL games have perfect 3D positional sound even when I'm mostly using my pretty cheap 40~$50 Sennheiser HD 212 Pro headphones and there's a huge difference in quality compared to Creative's drivers, I would say it's like comparing cheap integrated mobo sound cards vs an Audigy back in 2001, ie a noticable difference. It's heavily configurable with all kinds of plugins and makes it sound exactly like you want it to do. I've compared my Audigy + kX Audio drivers with my friends Creative X-Fi card but I actually preferred my Audigy (+ kX Audio drivers). :D

I imagine if really I was to try something new Auzentech would be a good shot and this card isn't too expensive but I'm worried about the software support would turn me down a bit after being "spoiled" with kX Audio drivers. Does Auzentech drivers differ a lot compared to Creative's despite using the "X-Fi" chip? I'm sure a new Auzentech blows my old Audigy card out of water hardware quality wise but with no great software support to back it up, it doesn't matter how good the hardware is.

What Sound card manufacturers would need to do is to hire these interested expirienced coders, of course there's cases were the coders go a bit above the line like Daniel_K perhaps have done in some cases but if they were hired by the company I'm sure they could work something out. The coders would get to do what they're good at but also get paid for it and consumers would enjoy a better product and the company would enjoy better sales. A win-win situation.

KX Drivers do NOT work with Games correctly and turns the X-Fi into something sounding like motherboard sound for games. As I posted before YouP_Pax and other have modded drivers that mean you don't have to depend on Creative. I use a Mix of You-Pax and Creative on my Xtreme Platinum and Gigabyte P35 with Vista Home 32bit and Newest Auzen ones on my Prelude. In Vista 64bit I'm having more problems with Radeon 8.12s than Prelude:rolleyes: According to a bud, it has more to do with the OS that video card.

The rig in your sig should have ZERO problems with any X-Fi of any kind=P Way too many nVidia and VIA bugs were blamed on Creative as well. Sorry saw a lot of BS in the Creative forums posted a few times myself.

DX drivers render the SBLive and the Audigy 1 useless for Gamers. The Audigy 1 was also the worst card Creative ever shipped hardware wise. Its problem wasn't drivers, it was the Card itself. The Audigy 2 and 2ZS corrected those problems and didn't have to be *Crippled or Hobbled with KX Drivers. My wife computer is still using an Audigy 2ZS, WinXP and nVidia A8N SLI mobo with ZERO sound problems. When I had tried to upgrade to the 32X SLI, it never worked (later fixed by a BIOS flash) I went back to the 16X and the problems went away.

I still have two A3D SQ2500 sound cards:up:

[IronWarrior]

So, am guessing this card is not as good as the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion than?

[MrHydes]

can't wait to read some reviews about forte and HD theater :D

[Helmore]

So, am guessing this card is not as good as the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion than?

No, the X-Fi Forte is not as good as the X-Fi Titanium, the X-Fi Forte is better than the X-Fi Titanium.

[Donnie27]

So, am guessing this card is not as good as the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion than?

It will be better than the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion? It uses better hardware around the same DSP. I'd expect the Auzen HT HD to be the best consumer card on the market, followed closely by the Forte.

The opinions expressed or implied are only my own. I'am not or have never been paid by Creative or Auzentech or none of their partners. I love Games sounds the way Video Card junkies love a well rendered video game.

[Stanley Pain]

It will be better than the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion? It uses better hardware around the same DSP. I'd expect the Auzen HT HD to be the best consumer card on the market, followed closely by the Forte.

The opinions expressed or implied are only my own. I'am not or have never been paid by Creative or Auzentech or none of their partners. I love Games sounds the way Video Card junkies love a well rendered video game.


Hey, what's up Prelude buddy? :up:

[IronWarrior]

No, the X-Fi Forte is not as good as the X-Fi Titanium, the X-Fi Forte is better than the X-Fi Titanium.

Might wanna recheck what you said there, you just said it is not as good and is better. :p

[Helmore]

Might wanna recheck what you said there, you just said it is not as good and is better. :p

Depends on how you read it and where you put the emphasis (on your interpretation). I said, the Forte is not 'as good as' the Titanium, by that I meant the Forte is not at the same level of quality/performance as the Titanium. The Forte is actually at a quality/performance level above the Titanium. I said it this way on purpose, as I knew you didn't mean your comment in the same way as I interpreted it :p:. In other words, I knew what you meant to say, I just used your own words in a way you did not intent them to be interpreted (and used).

A bit like this:
the Forte, is not, as good as the Titanium
or
the Forte is not as good, as the Titanium

[lochabar]

Putting in a word for the YouP-Pax drivers. I have been using them for years. They have noticeably better sound quality than the creative stock drivers, and have incorporated workarounds for most of the problems associated with the creative drivers. If you have a creative OEM audio card that is limited in functionality due to driver support issues, using YouP-Pax drivers will give you back full functionality.

[Donnie27]

Hey, what's up Prelude buddy? :up:

I'm liking it and I'm getting antsy about trying another Opamp or two. I've been experimenting with a mix of Creative and Auzentech drivers and software. Speaking of powerful CPUs, even my Wolfdale breezes through Creative's Bloat. I use Foobar more than anything else lately!

[RPGWiZaRD]

KX Drivers do NOT work with Games correctly and turns the X-Fi into something sounding like motherboard sound for games. As I posted before YouP_Pax and other have modded drivers that mean you don't have to depend on Creative. I use a Mix of You-Pax and Creative on my Xtreme Platinum and Gigabyte P35 with Vista Home 32bit and Newest Auzen ones on my Prelude. In Vista 64bit I'm having more problems with Radeon 8.12s than Prelude:rolleyes: According to a bud, it has more to do with the OS that video card.

The rig in your sig should have ZERO problems with any X-Fi of any kind=P Way too many nVidia and VIA bugs were blamed on Creative as well. Sorry saw a lot of BS in the Creative forums posted a few times myself.

DX drivers render the SBLive and the Audigy 1 useless for Gamers. The Audigy 1 was also the worst card Creative ever shipped hardware wise. Its problem wasn't drivers, it was the Card itself. The Audigy 2 and 2ZS corrected those problems and didn't have to be *Crippled or Hobbled with KX Drivers. My wife computer is still using an Audigy 2ZS, WinXP and nVidia A8N SLI mobo with ZERO sound problems. When I had tried to upgrade to the 32X SLI, it never worked (later fixed by a BIOS flash) I went back to the 16X and the problems went away.

I still have two A3D SQ2500 sound cards:up:

There is nothing wrong with my SoundBlaster Audigy + kX audio drivers. Like I said I prefer my current SB Audigy even better than an X-Fi card + Creative drivers but maybe with those You_PaX drivers it would sound a lot better. I need to give them a try right away on my Audigy.

EDIT: Where do you change Treble & Bass in YouP_PaX drivers? Don't seem to be able to. :/ I really prefer the sound of kX Audio anyway.

[kadozer]

Looks like a winner. Hoping for decent Vistax64 drivers.

[Donnie27]

There is nothing wrong with my SoundBlaster Audigy + kX audio drivers. Like I said I prefer my current SB Audigy even better than an X-Fi card + Creative drivers but maybe with those You_PaX drivers it would sound a lot better. I need to give them a try right away on my Audigy.

EDIT: Where do you change Treble & Bass in YouP_PaX drivers? Don't seem to be able to. :/ I really prefer the sound of kX Audio anyway.

There isn't anything wrong with the KX Drivers except they don't support EAX 3, 4 and 5. If I'm going to dump EAX (now Yukon Trooper and Rob might faint) I'd have NO use for any Creative card. Even my old MUSE Game Theater 5.1 or my SQ500 sounds better. Turtle Beech all the way back to the Santa Cruz sounds better.

No, I have an Audigy 2ZS in my wife's computer and no it doesn't sound as good as the X-Fi. IMHO, not even close. I've used KX, Daniel K and even hand made ones that disabled the KMixer on the SBLive and Audigys. I think what you might experiencing psychological since I've have both on the same rig and can easily pick the X-Fi and then the Prelude in Analog mode.

I have better control of all aspects of my X-Fi on my HTPC using the YouP_Pax drivers (my favorite). They sound the same to me they just need less fine turning. They also GREATLY speed up the whole install of Creative Bloatware. They actually make them worth using. I've converted 4 previous bashers of that same software.

[safan80]

Looks like a winner. Hoping for decent Vistax64 drivers.

I'll let you know friday night... late friday.

[Donnie27]

I'll let you know friday night... late friday.

Sweetttt!

[largon]

I can hardly be excited about "gaming" sound cards due to how utterly ridiculous sound effects in games themselves are. No spec improvement will change the fact that there's no realism whatsoever in any and all in-game audio. Take for example your high-end FPS; as you shoot, the first thing you (might) notice that guns give a simple "Bang!", no matter if you're the behind weapon or in front when someone shoots at you. Or in the next room / 20m away. If someone's launching a rocket/missile in front of you, you hear a "SWOosh!", instead of the extremely loud low explosive "B O O O M !" rocket engines give in reality. That is, when you're behind the exhaust. If you are (in front of) the shooter, you will not hear the same loud sound, only a "SWOoosh!". Though, with a weapon such as M72 LAW you will be distracted by the sound of the "hammer" hitting the igniter right by your ear.

What we need is a sound card that is actually an audio-physics card which would actually simulate how sounds behave in a given environment. We need hardware (and an API) that actually simulates the behaviour of sound waves, in air and solids, through obstacles, echoes, distorsions, etc.
Not useless SNR improvements.

[Helmore]

What we need is a sound card that is actually an audio-physics card which would actually simulate how sounds behave in a given environment. We need hardware (and an API) that actually simulates the behaviour of sound waves, in air and solids, through obstacles, echoes, distorsions, etc.
Not useless SNR improvements.

That's they it should be done, but doesn't that require a massive a mount of computations to calculate all that? I'm not sure how it would work, but I think that would be on the same level, computationally wise, as a proper fluid dynamics, IMHO. Which we all know, is very hard to do.
Still, it would be the holy grail of gaming sounds.

[RealTelstar]

3rd party driver support has grown since the Daniel_k incident. Daniel_K even returned and is doing driver releases again.

True. I use them on w7, but i still hear pops and clicks. Moreover, in vista x64 now the secret rabbit code in foobar stopped working properly. Creative has huge issues with sample rate output.

As somebody said above, my last creative card. Auzen, maybe. Also check my thread in general hardware/sound about comparison between the forte and the Essence stx.

[RPGWiZaRD]

There isn't anything wrong with the KX Drivers except they don't support EAX 3, 4 and 5. If I'm going to dump EAX (now Yukon Trooper and Rob might faint) I'd have NO use for any Creative card. Even my old MUSE Game Theater 5.1 or my SQ500 sounds better. Tuttle Beech all the way back to the Santa Cruz sounds better.

Well I see no need for EAX with kX Audio drivers when the surround sound is better than it was with EAX (EAX was a bit too exaggerated and didn't sound natural when turning around the character especially) and then with kX Audio it works excellent in all games even those who have no EAX or whatsoever fancy sound system support. Take a look at those X-Fi + UT3 threads for example (I play mostly UT3 so it matters a lot to me), people complain about plain non-surround sound as OpenAL doesn't work for this game (crashes), I have perfect 3D sound without OpenAL and can easily listen to footsteps or weapon fire etc to quickly know players positions. Yesterday I played L4D and was accused for wallhack and aimbot only cuz I kept shooting the camping zombies through walls and ceiling or kill the boomers camping among trees, I don't need to see them, I just listen to the noises of the zombies and know exactly where they stand. :p:

But it's not only 3D positional sound that is great, when listening to music it makes it sound a lot more dynamic, I use closed headphones but they sound more like open ones with kX Audio drivers adding a wider sound stage with very varieted sound depending on instruments or tones or whatever played, like they'd come from a different place like when you have an huge orchestra. I tried comparing the YouP_PaX drivers to kX in some Celine Dion songs and with YouP_PaX quality was poorer and the voice sounded like it would be very far away somewhere with YouP_PaX and with kX it's like Celine would be whispering into my ears. kX drivers surely changes the sound a lot more than YouP_PaX does but I could hear an improvement over the official Creative drivers. I've tweaked the settings in kX drivers so these settings in particular may make it sound so good while in YouP_PaX I cannot change almost anything.

So I'm not particularly convinced that X-Fi would sound better than the Audigy (SB0090) card as there's no support for X-Fi with kX audio drivers. Maybe this Auzentech X-Fi Forte would sound better though, but I'd need to hear it in action before knowing for certain. :p:

[Levish]

Only place i found it in stock as of now
http://www.ncixus.com/products/?sku=35596&promoid=1015&vpn=AZT-FORTE&manufacture=AuzenTech

[IcY18]

Only place i found it in stock as of now
http://www.ncixus.com/products/?sku=35596&promoid=1015&vpn=AZT-FORTE&manufacture=AuzenTech

It's at Auzentech's website too.

[IcY18]

mm.. keep in mind tho - the way Vista did video drivers was craptastic: no multiple v.card drivers, however in W7 that changes :up:

I'm sorry but this is off topic and i've never heard of this before but i currently house 2 different graphic cards(nV 8800GT and ATi X700 Pro) for two monitors in XP Pro and am about to put together a new system and use Vista. Does Vista not allow this?

[Donnie27]

Well I see no need for EAX with kX Audio drivers when the surround sound is better than it was with EAX (EAX was a bit too exaggerated and didn't sound natural when turning around the character especially) and then with kX Audio it works excellent in all games even those who have no EAX or whatsoever fancy sound system support. Take a look at those X-Fi + UT3 threads for example (I play mostly UT3 so it matters a lot to me), people complain about plain non-surround sound as OpenAL doesn't work for this game (crashes), I have perfect 3D sound without OpenAL and can easily listen to footsteps or weapon fire etc to quickly know players positions. Yesterday I played L4D and was accused for wallhack and aimbot only cuz I kept shooting the camping zombies through walls and ceiling or kill the boomers camping among trees, I don't need to see them, I just listen to the noises of the zombies and know exactly where they stand. :p:

But it's not only 3D positional sound that is great, when listen to music it makes it sound a lot more dynamic, I use closed headphones but they sound more like open ones with kX Audio drivers adding a wider sound stage with very varieted sound depending on instruments or tones or whatever played, like they'd come from a different place like when you have an huge orchestra. I tried comparing the YouP_PaX drivers to kX in some Celine Dion songs and with YouP_PaX quality was poorer and the voice sounded like it would be very far away somewhere with YouP_PaX and with kX it's like Celine would be whispering into my ears. kX drivers surely changes the sound a lot more than YouP_PaX does but I could hear an improvement over the official Creative drivers. I've tweaked the settings in kX drivers so these settings in particular may make it sound so good while in YouP_PaX I cannot change almost anything.

Then to you, largon and anyone else, reading some of the views are opinions and to each his or her own. But the only time I've heard such comments are when folks haven't heard a PROPERLY setup X-Fi on a Half-@$$ed set of speakers or never heard one at all. They have RightMark software to measure sound card performance. X-Fi does better with the benchmark. Again, I wished they had one for Game Sounds.

EAX doesn't do or isn't surround sound. The surround sound is provided by either a 3rd Party sound engine like the one used by Half Life 2, Direct Sound 3D or OpenAL. EAX is sound effects that livens or adds to these surround sounds. X-Fi provides local processing to avoid Latency or Delay that CPU processing causes due to the PCI BUS latency(traffic-Polling).

The Audigys (ALL OF THEM even the A4-Pro) can't touch the X-Fi and aren't even in the same class as the Prelude even with stock Opamps. I don't know what else to tell you but Drivers can't overcome at best mid-range hardware like the Opamps the Audigys uses. You have to do more than just bypassing the Kmixer or whatever. The cheapest Asus card sounds better. My old SQ 2500 sounds better than all but the Top Audigy. Dewd, I'll say it right here and now that you're cheating yourself. X-Fi doesn't have any driver problems with your rig.

All I play (besides a few flight sims) are First person shooters and even play some them with a Force Feed Joystick. One person trying out my system thought the FF joystick made sounds since the sounds seemed to be coming from the Joystick as he shot the Gun. I had to turn off the sound before he believed me.

Sound Stage? 13 out of 15 people have thought my Center Channel was on while I had it set to 2Ch Stereo. One guy just said sure it sounds like the Center is on but no way that Center speaker sounds that good. Try the sound tracks from City of Angels and Titan A.E. . Between these two just about every Music style/type is represented.

I haven't played UT3 but have played all the Army games, Quakes-Dooms, CoD, Stalkers, Prey, FEAR and many others. I get full EAX that is adjustable BTW with my Sound System and Cans->BD 770 Pro 80's.

[tiro_uspsss]

I'm sorry but this is off topic and i've never heard of this before but i currently house 2 different graphic cards(nV 8800GT and ATi X700 Pro) for two monitors in XP Pro and am about to put together a new system and use Vista. Does Vista not allow this?

nope, not possible, Vista doesnt allow :down:

psst - why u using 2 cards for 2 monitors? :shrug:

[SamHughe]

I tried comparing the YouP_PaX drivers to kX in some Celine Dion songs and with YouP_PaX quality was poorer and the voice sounded like it would be very far away somewhere with YouP_PaX and with kX it's like Celine would be whispering into my ears.

:rofl: sigged.

[lochabar]

:rofl: sigged.

Sorry RPG....but i snickered too, lol. :p:

[Donnie27]

Simply put, KX drivers does nothing for Games=P KX Drivers are for un-modded SB Card to listen to music is in the words of Spock, "highly illogical".

[IcY18]

nope, not possible, Vista doesnt allow :down:

psst - why u using 2 cards for 2 monitors? :shrug:

In my short experience of trying to use a single card for two monitors is that it doesn't work very well, not nearly as well as two different cards.

I don't want my whole windows desktop (desktop bar) to extend the whole length of two screens. With one gfx card it seems it thinks the whole window is like one big monitor at a combined resolution. With 2 graphic cards my second monitor is completely independent of the first.

[RPGWiZaRD]

Simply put, KX drivers does nothing for Games=P KX Drivers are for un-modded SB Card to listen to music is in the words of Spock, "highly illogical".

Give it up already, it may not for you or you haven't tested it thoroughly but for me if using the other drivers I don't get near as good 3D positional sound in non-EAX supported games. Why would the kX drivers be worse for games then? Seems highly illogical to me, oh well let's stop this offtopic talk already, at least I will. What matters is that you're satisfied with what you're using, at least I am but since I've had the same setup for so long I'm itching to try something new but it definitely wouldn't be a Creative X-Fi. :p:

[Donnie27]

In my short experience of trying to use a single card for two monitors is that it doesn't work very well, not nearly as well as two different cards.

I don't want my whole windows desktop (desktop bar) to extend the whole length of two screens. With one gfx card it seems it thinks the whole window is like one big monitor at a combined resolution. With 2 graphic cards my second monitor is completely independent of the first.

I've been using two monitors since at least the nVidia TNT days. I have one 22" LCD at 1600 by 1050 and one CRT at 1280 by 1024 with NO problems except 8.12 drivers stops working in Vista 64 for some unknown reason. "Your computer has recovered from a driver failure. Your video card drivers stopped functioning". I love that one big desktop. Soon that will be two 22" or one 30":up:

[Donnie27]

Give it up already, it may not for you or you haven't tested it thoroughly but for me if using the other drivers I don't get near as good 3D positional sound in non-EAX supported games. Why would the kX drivers be worse for games then? Seems highly illogical to me.


Let's see, you say give it up and I haven't tested when I'm not having any problems at all. Again, EAX does nothing to positions in a 3D Game's space.
EAX adds distance, elevation, Occlusion Obstruction, delay, decay, Fanger, and etc................... to 3D positional sound that's already done.

Music:

Why would anyone take a SBLive or Audigy and try to say its music playback is improved beyond better sounding cards with KX drivers is unbelievable. The Asus Cards sound head and shoulders better than a KX/Audigy. This has little to do with opinion. Right-Mark will verify that, so you please give it up and let it go? Drivers can't replace Opamps or better hardware.

Games:
Just the oposite of what the other poster said I'll quote him.


What we need is a sound card that is actually an audio-physics card which would actually simulate how sounds behave in a given environment. We need hardware (and an API) that actually simulates the behaviour of sound waves, in air and solids, through obstacles, echoes, distorsions, etc.
Not useless SNR improvements.

That's exactly WTF X-Fi does and more. It can recreate the sounds from 4 different areas. Inside and Outside sounds and transitions between them are rendered just as the Game makers intended. Now maybe YOU never heard working EAX, but anyone who has will not just overlook it.

HL2 doesn't support EAX and still sound better being processed locally than CPU based stuff with Latency or lag. Audigy's problem is the cheaper version of the same Opamps the X-Fi uses. Be it right mark or ear, X-Fi sounds better and the Prelude KILLS IT! KX Drivers CAN NOT make these Opamps and etc sound better. Better of using digital out to a half @$$ed descent receiver and real speakers instead of the Computer MM crap:D

[IcY18]

I've been using two monitors since at least the nVidia TNT days. I have one 22" LCD at 1600 by 1050 and one CRT at 1280 by 1024 with NO problems except 8.12 drivers stops working in Vista 64 for some unknown reason. "Your computer has recovered from a driver failure. Your video card drivers stopped functioning". I love that one big desktop. Soon that will be two 22" or one 30":up:

When i just tried to run 2 monitors on my 8800GT it only allows me to run the the vertical resolution on both my monitors at 1680, this looks terrible on my 24" which wants to obviously run at 1920. Unless i am missing additional software i am unsure how to fix this.

Edit: Found where my error was, now have both display's running on one card like i had it with two cards. My error was the for nvidia dualview to be an option, both monitors have to be plugged in before the computer is started. The only other options were horizontal span, clone, or vertical span which, like i said earlier resulted in 1 single resolution.

[Bradan]

Separate posts for this reply. Dolby Headphone is NOT good as CMSS3D=P Dolby Headphone can work for Movies because the sounds are Pre rendered. Games are rendered on-the-fly. Using Dolby Headphones can cause more problems than help for Game Surround Sounds and Sound Effects.


You understand that when you use dolby/cmss you're supposed to set ingame to multichannel?

It downmixes 4.1/5.1/7.1 to headphones... on the fly.

I own an audigy 4, so how could i biased?

I have EAX 4.0, which I admit is very good, though the rear soundstage is fubar, and very imbalanced vs the L/R surround. It downmixes from 64 channels vs 5/7 of 5.1/7.1, so EAX kills games that otherwise have to downmix 7.1

[safan80]

True. I use them on w7, but i still hear pops and clicks. Moreover, in vista x64 now the secret rabbit code in foobar stopped working properly. Creative has huge issues with sample rate output.

As somebody said above, my last creative card. Auzen, maybe. Also check my thread in general hardware/sound about comparison between the forte and the Essence stx.

my first gen x-fi has no pops with these drivers in vista x64 or windows 7 x64.

http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=soundblaster&thread.id=135215

[Zorlac]

When will we get XAudio2 sound cards? XAudio2 is the successor to DirectSound as far as I know and is now included in recent distros of DirectX.

[safan80]

When will we get XAudio2 sound cards? XAudio2 is the successor to DirectSound as far as I know and is now included in recent distros of DirectX.

Xaudio2 is just an api.

[Zorlac]

What is OpenAL and OpenAL+EAX then?

[safan80]

What is OpenAL and OpenAL+EAX then?

same thing as Xaudio2

[Donnie27]

You understand that when you use dolby/cmss you're supposed to set ingame to multichannel?

It downmixes 4.1/5.1/7.1 to headphones... on the fly.

I own an audigy 4, so how could i biased?

I have EAX 4.0, which I admit is very good, though the rear soundstage is fubar, and very imbalanced vs the L/R surround. It downmixes from 64 channels vs 5/7 of 5.1/7.1, so EAX kills games that otherwise have to downmix 7.1

I know what CMSS 3D is, how it works, how it's setup and was one of the first ones to talk about it here.

Dolby Headphone depends on already processed sounds or canned/Prerendered sounds. This can be heard with DVD and etc...but it doesn't work as well with Games. The best Dolby can do then is simulate 5.1 and causes more harm than good with games.

CMSS 3D is interactive and is performed On-The-Fly. A3D and Sensura at work here. No, CMSS 3D works great with or without EAX. All CMSS 3D needs is any game with ANY 5.1 at all. EAX is just icing on the cake. A prime example is Half Life 2. It can do perfect 360 horizontal and vertical:up: The first HL2 used its own sound engine. WITHOUT EAX OR OPENAL X-Fi still kicked they other card's @$$es:D Only the Prelude can beat them.

One reason your rear channel might be fubar is because when playing games in 5.1 mode, you MUST turn CMSS 3D OFF. This is a very common mistake I've seen even Enthusiasts make. Example. Like some Ding Bat at [H] thinking CMSS 3D would make 5.1 sound 10.2:rofl: In simple terms, you don't need 5.1 ears to hear a 5.1 sound sources. Yet, your two ears can easily pinpoint direction. CMSS 3D recreates this, Dolby HP can for movies but not for games. Now, add EAX to these already directional sounds and bang, nothing else touches it. The amount of EAX can be adjusted.

For 5.1 in Game Mode.
X-Fi CMSS 3D disabled (no check mark in the box)
X-Fi Crystalizer Optional mine stays off for games. Helps old games.
EQ To taste, mine has a little mid increased (better in game voices).
Mixer Everything off/disabled if you're not using a MIC. EAX enabled but set to 0DB, MIC if used set to 70% FX, Smart Volume off for most games.
Speakers Set to 5.1,
Bass Bass Redirection enabled and Frq Crossover set to 80Hz. Sub woofer Gain enabled.

Go back to Speakers and run the Noise test. Make sure the Multi Media speakers or Receiver is NOT set to any kind of Matrix, 3D, Expander or any other simulated surround. This messes up the cards discrete output. Another common mistake. DTS connect is sweet and this will just get better with uncompressed HDMI:up:

Last thing needed would be in game Audio set to whatever surround sound setting enabled. Then sit back and enjoy! Hope I didn't waste anyone's time.

[Bo_Fox]

Interesting discussion, Donnie!

I guess I'll be getting a Prelude for my CRT rig hooked up to 5.1 receiver/active subwoofer and an Essence STX for my other rig that is mainly used with either 2 speakers or headphones. It seems that Foxconn's Bloodrage Sonar X-Fi card might not be good enough.

[Donnie27]

Interesting discussion, Donnie!

I guess I'll be getting a Prelude for my CRT rig hooked up to 5.1 receiver/active subwoofer and an Essence STX for my other rig that is mainly used with either 2 speakers or headphones. It seems that Foxconn's Bloodrage Sonar X-Fi card might not be good enough.

Absolutely for strictly Music and occasional gaming, the $89 Xonar was good enough, if the new Essence STX is even better that RAWCs! Price will play a part but I'd love one of them for my HTPC.

I think Asus and Auzentech is making a very big mistake trying to sell High-End cards in this current economic climate.

[Zaskar]

Im just looking for a Native PCI-E Soundcard that has a digital/optical out and has DTS or DDL, does this do that?

Remember reading about some new Auzentech card that was PCI-E, but ended up being low profile and didn't have DTS or DDL, which really just kind of made it worthless, dunno if this is it or if its a new one.

[Helmore]

Absolutely for strictly Music and occasional gaming, the $89 Xonar was good enough, if the new Essence STX is even better that RAWCs! Price will play a part but I'd love one of them for my HTPC.

I think Asus and Auzentech is making a very big mistake trying to sell High-End cards in this current economic climate.

I think Auzentech would have trouble trying to compete in the low end, that market would be much easier served by Creative itself. Asus on the other hand, they could easily do so.

[Rise]

http://www.guru3d.com/news/auzentech-xfi-forte-available-now/

click the link at the bottom for pics!

This post is awesome, purely because of the first line in your sig :rofl:

[Donnie27]

Im just looking for a Native PCI-E Soundcard that has a digital/optical out and has DTS or DDL, does this do that?

Remember reading about some new Auzentech card that was PCI-E, but ended up being low profile and didn't have DTS or DDL, which really just kind of made it worthless, dunno if this is it or if its a new one.

Creative's new cards does DDL and they sell an Add-on for $4.72 for older cards. The Prelude does DDL and DTS.

The Forte ships with two brackets so it can be installed in Low or Normal profiles.

http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_forte.php

[dexman]

Im just looking for a Native PCI-E Soundcard that has a digital/optical out and has DTS or DDL, does this do that?

Remember reading about some new Auzentech card that was PCI-E, but ended up being low profile and didn't have DTS or DDL, which really just kind of made it worthless, dunno if this is it or if its a new one.
yeah, Forte does all of that. check auzentech's website, there is everything you need to know. ///Donnie was quicker

[Zaskar]

cool, thanks guys.

Is this card longer then the other PCI-E cards to make up for the low profile height? is so that may be another concern as many boards top PCI-E slot doesn't have the full depth available to it, which made the very short PCI-E soundcards a perfect fit.

[safan80]

Creative's new cards does DDL and they sell an Add-on for $4.72 for older cards. The Prelude does DDL and DTS.

The Forte ships with two brackets so it can be installed in Low or Normal profiles.

http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_forte.php

that link is in the very first post.... This is why I stopped embedding links in my posts because people ignore them.

[Donnie27]

that link is in the very first post.... This is why I stopped embedding links in my posts because people ignore them.

Yup but hey!


cool, thanks guys.

Is this card longer then the other PCI-E cards to make up for the low profile height? is so that may be another concern as many boards top PCI-E slot doesn't have the full depth available to it, which made the very short PCI-E soundcards a perfect fit.

My understanding is that it is slightly longer but about the same size as the X-Fi Xrreme Gamer. The new PCI-E X-Fi Ti is smaller as well but still full height.

X-Fi Xreme Gamer (http://support.creative.com/Products/ProductDetails.aspx?catID=1&CatName=Sound+Blaster&subCatID=208&subCatName=X-Fi&prodID=15853&prodName=X-Fi+XtremeGamer)

[safan80]

This post is awesome, purely because of the first line in your sig :rofl:

well CL doesn't make the card, so what's so funny?

[Donnie27]

I think Auzentech would have trouble trying to compete in the low end, that market would be much easier served by Creative itself. Asus on the other hand, they could easily do so.

There's room for Auzentech in the Mainstream discrete SC market. Those that range fro $89 to $139.

[Helmore]

There's room for Auzentech in the Mainstream discrete SC market. Those that range fro $89 to $139.

What I meant to say is that Auzentech may not be able to compete there, because they would be competing with Creative and they are buying the chips from Creative itself. I presume that would make it hard for them to compete with Creative, or they would have to offer something in that price range that does not directly compete with Creative's offerings.

[Donnie27]

What I meant to say is that Auzentech may not be able to compete there, because they would be competing with Creative and they are buying the chips from Creative itself. I presume that would make it hard for them to compete with Creative, or they would have to offer something in that price range that does not directly compete with Creative's offerings.

I believe it might be more of a matter of costs and Volume. They're lower volume so each unit costs more. They can't mass produce like Creative Can.
I'd think if they could get more volume, the costs would come down, then they could charge less. Right now they seem more like a niche supplier and that's too bad. I could easily be wrong.

I think very little of it has anything to do with competing with Creative. It's a win win for Creative. They could also try to sell more DSP's to others as well. They'd become just like ATI or nVidia in their Hey-Day. Creative had said they're not stopping anyone from using their DSP!

[Xoulz]

The windows driver model is permanently changed as of Vista, anything in W7 is going to be simple refinement and not major redesign.

There are major benefits to these changes, namely that driver crashes no longer bring down the kernel, but they're outweighed in practice by the reduction in functionality to the end user (hardware accelerated sound basically sucks ass under vista).

Take from that what you will - the driver model change was necessary to bring windows closer to the modern era though this doesn't mean that any of us really like the result much.



:cool:

But EAX 4.0 and other surround sound standards no longer work. This is a major downfall of Windows Vista and Windows 7 and a HUGE reason many gamers will not switch over.

Gamers rely on EAX...! I'm a semi-professional gamer (have won $$ over many years) and there is no way I would give up EAX for positional sound, unless a new standard usurped it's performance and quality. It has not!



This ^^ is what I am talking about. How can Microsoft move forward with their new OS's and not even bat an eye at incorporating some form of a robust 3 dimensional sound system ..?

Windows 7 needs to address this problem, or it will be another debacle like Vista.





.

[Helmore]

I believe it might be more of a matter of costs and Volume. They're lower volume so each unit costs more. They can't mass produce like Creative Can.
I'd think if they could get more volume, the costs would come down, then they could charge less. Right now they seem more like a niche supplier and that's too bad. I could easily be wrong.

I think very little of it has anything to do with competing with Creative. It's a win win for Creative. They could also try to sell more DSP's to others as well. They'd become just like ATI or nVidia in their Hey-Day. Creative had said they're not stopping anyone from using their DSP!

What I was also alluding to was the fact that Auzentech buys the DSPs from Creative, so the DSP will be more expensive for Auzentech than it is for Creative. I mean, Creative will want to make a profit on each DSP they sell to some other company, which makes their DSP more expensive for Auzentech than for Creative.
Higher volume for Auzentech will make a difference, but won't be able to make up for the fact that their DSP is more expensive than what Creative pays for it.

[Xoulz]

I can hardly be excited about "gaming" sound cards due to how utterly ridiculous sound effects in games themselves are. No spec improvement will change the fact that there's no realism whatsoever in any and all in-game audio. Take for example your high-end FPS; as you shoot, the first thing you (might) notice that guns give a simple "Bang!", no matter if you're the behind weapon or in front when someone shoots at you. Or in the next room / 20m away. If someone's launching a rocket/missile in front of you, you hear a "SWOosh!", instead of the extremely loud low explosive "B O O O M !" rocket engines give in reality. That is, when you're behind the exhaust. If you are (in front of) the shooter, you will not hear the same loud sound, only a "SWOoosh!". Though, with a weapon such as M72 LAW you will be distracted by the sound of the "hammer" hitting the igniter right by your ear.

What we need is a sound card that is actually an audio-physics card which would actually simulate how sounds behave in a given environment. We need hardware (and an API) that actually simulates the behaviour of sound waves, in air and solids, through obstacles, echoes, distorsions, etc.
Not useless SNR improvements.



Bro, that^^ is so wrong. In Battlefield 2142, not only can you tell exactly where a sniper (200 yards away) is trying to hit your from, you can here the doppler effect of the bullet as it passes your head and continues on..!

That game has been out 3 years..! As I said earlier, many of my friends were amazed at the difference, because it makes a huge difference in game play.

5.1 surround, with Creative X-Fi..! (EAX 5.0 HD enabled)

I won't give it up.





.

[Donnie27]

What I was also alluding to was the fact that Auzentech buys the DSPs from Creative, so the DSP will be more expensive for Auzentech than it is for Creative. I mean, Creative will want to make a profit on each DSP they sell to some other company, which makes their DSP more expensive for Auzentech than for Creative.
Higher volume for Auzentech will make a difference, but won't be able to make up for the fact that their DSP is more expensive than what Creative pays for it.

True but I'm thinking Creative isn't selling them for a premium if they want and NEED others to buy them. Keep in mind they're also competing with On-Board chips (except the ones bought out by Asus).

[safan80]

In with the new out with the old. the drivers on the CD with work fine with vista x64. the third party drivers don't work with this card yet. I had to buy new cables for my Gigaworks S750 speakers bestbuy had the cables for half the price of radioshack :shakes:

[safan80]

I was looking at the manual and guess what I found?

[Helmore]

Wow, nice safan80. Care to open a thread in the review or sound section of the forum to share your opinion on your new purchase? I'm really interested to know what you think of it, as I'm contemplating to buy one of these.
Now that I see them side by side, I never expected the X-Fi Forte to be longer than an 'ordinary' PCI X-Fi XtremeGamer.

EDIT: Nice find there, never expected compatibility with a Creative expansion slot. Now I also know what all the extra pin-outs are for. Nice to know that there is an S/PDIF in and stuff like that.

Could you tell me how the dedicated headphone port works? Will plugging in a headset to that port automatically disable all other speaker channels? Or can you switch between speaker and headphone through a simple toggle in software? I would like to be able to just keep both my headphone and my speakers connected and then simply switch between the two in software of something like that. That way I won't have to plug in and unplug my headphone all the time, which would be a pain in the back with the great accessibility at the back of my case :(. Or I would have to buy a piece of extension cord, so I can unplug and plug my headphone from above my desk.

[safan80]

the Forte uses it's own version of the x-fi drivers and audio console just like the standard x-fi you can mute the speakers when you plug the headphones in... this is why I lost interest in the Xonar because it will not do automatically also because of driver issues people were reporting with dvd apps.

I'll make a thread in the sound section now.

[Donnie27]

What I was also alluding to was the fact that Auzentech buys the DSPs from Creative, so the DSP will be more expensive for Auzentech than it is for Creative. I mean, Creative will want to make a profit on each DSP they sell to some other company, which makes their DSP more expensive for Auzentech than for Creative.
Higher volume for Auzentech will make a difference, but won't be able to make up for the fact that their DSP is more expensive than what Creative pays for it.

I agree, I mean cards costing from $139 to $169 instead of $179 to $259. What do you think? A $139 Auzentech card would be like Creative selling the XGamer for $69. I got mine (Prelude) for something like $162 shipped IIRC and I'll still say it was about $20 too much.


EDIT: Nice find there, never expected compatibility with a Creative expansion slot. Now I also know what all the extra pin-outs are for. Nice to know that there is an S/PDIF in and stuff like that.

This info is also in the first link in the specs sections. Since Auzen's I/O connector never *fully worked, many users complained that they should have just used Creative's. Only a few Fanboys and Anti Creative folks were against it.

Same link.
http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_forte.php


Extension = Creative proprietary AND_EXT, DID_EXE connector for X-Fi I/O driver

I posted this back during the Pin Mix up.

[Donnie27]

the Forte uses it's own version of the x-fi drivers and audio console just like the standard x-fi you can mute the speakers when you plug the headphones in... this is why I lost interest in the Xonar because it will not do automatically also because of driver issues people were reporting with dvd apps.

I'll make a thread in the sound section now.

The Prelude doesn't have that feature or mine doesn't work:( It worked on all of my X-Fi's and at least one of the Audigy 2ZS's that I own.

The drivers are pretty much still Creative's BTW. I've used hacked Creative Drivers and still using Hacked Creative software right now. The reports are than the New Cards and Drivers work pretty well. Even one hard core basher said Creative got the PCI-E X-Fi right. Didn't take Auzen as long to get theirs out.

I have a sneaky feeling that the Creative I/O drive might have a slight incompatibility and Auzen will ship its own. I'd love to see Creative's work though so I'm wishing I'm wrong. (cheaper)

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3592816&postcount=20

[safan80]

The Prelude doesn't have that feature or mine doesn't work:( It worked on all of my X-Fi's and at least one of the Audigy 2ZS's that I own.

The drivers are pretty much still Creative's BTW. I've used hacked Creative Drivers and still using Hacked Creative software right now. The reports are than the New Cards and Drivers work pretty well. Even one hard core basher said Creative got the PCI-E X-Fi right. Didn't take Auzen as long to get theirs out.

I have a sneaky feeling that the Creative I/O drive might have a slight incompatibility and Auzen will ship its own. I'd love to see Creative's work though so I'm wishing I'm wrong. (cheaper)

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3592816&postcount=20

yeah I know the drivers are creative but the hardware is not. where can you even get the drive bay with out the sound card? creative doesn't sell it on their web site I've checked. In the mean time I ordered cable extensions.

I made a thread about the card in the sound section and there's a in speaker setup check box that even my pci X-fi didn't have.. you can see the screenshots here.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=215460

[safan80]

the card is now avilable at newegg http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829156010

[Donnie27]

yeah I know the drivers are creative but the hardware is not. where can you even get the drive bay with out the sound card? creative doesn't sell it on their web site I've checked. In the mean time I ordered cable extensions.

I made a thread about the card in the sound section and there's a in speaker setup check box that even my pci X-fi didn't have.. you can see the screenshots here.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=215460

Two in a row. I did point out that the hardware is different and better BTW!

[Bradan]

I know what CMSS 3D is, how it works, how it's setup and was one of the first ones to talk about it here.

Dolby Headphone depends on already processed sounds or canned/Prerendered sounds. This can be heard with DVD and etc...but it doesn't work as well with Games. The best Dolby can do then is simulate 5.1 and causes more harm than good with games.

CMSS 3D is interactive and is performed On-The-Fly. A3D and Sensura at work here. No, CMSS 3D works great with or without EAX. All CMSS 3D needs is any game with ANY 5.1 at all. EAX is just icing on the cake. A prime example is Half Life 2. It can do perfect 360 horizontal and vertical:up: The first HL2 used its own sound engine. WITHOUT EAX OR OPENAL X-Fi still kicked they other card's @$$es:D Only the Prelude can beat them.

One reason your rear channel might be fubar is because when playing games in 5.1 mode, you MUST turn CMSS 3D OFF. This is a very common mistake I've seen even Enthusiasts make. Example. Like some Ding Bat at [H] thinking CMSS 3D would make 5.1 sound 10.2:rofl: In simple terms, you don't need 5.1 ears to hear a 5.1 sound sources. Yet, your two ears can easily pinpoint direction. CMSS 3D recreates this, Dolby HP can for movies but not for games. Now, add EAX to these already directional sounds and bang, nothing else touches it. The amount of EAX can be adjusted.

For 5.1 in Game Mode.
X-Fi CMSS 3D disabled (no check mark in the box)
X-Fi Crystalizer Optional mine stays off for games. Helps old games.
EQ To taste, mine has a little mid increased (better in game voices).
Mixer Everything off/disabled if you're not using a MIC. EAX enabled but set to 0DB, MIC if used set to 70% FX, Smart Volume off for most games.
Speakers Set to 5.1,
Bass Bass Redirection enabled and Frq Crossover set to 80Hz. Sub woofer Gain enabled.

Go back to Speakers and run the Noise test. Make sure the Multi Media speakers or Receiver is NOT set to any kind of Matrix, 3D, Expander or any other simulated surround. This messes up the cards discrete output. Another common mistake. DTS connect is sweet and this will just get better with uncompressed HDMI:up:

Last thing needed would be in game Audio set to whatever surround sound setting enabled. Then sit back and enjoy! Hope I didn't waste anyone's time.

dude.... you are misunderstanding

CMSS3D downmixing = DOLBY downmixing

I fully understand how to set up my card, but you must understand what I'm talking about with the weak rear soundstage in EAX. You're in denial if you don't.

Either 3d sound emulation takse a signal with more speakers and sample it to fewer. The soundstage is preserved pretty well in my opinion

Your seriously making me angry saying dolby is only for canned sounds, as that makes no sense. You must have a misunderstanding of something, or are a victim to marketing:rolleyes:

CMSS nad DOLBY, map the sounds, and downscale to 2.1/HP, thats it.

EAX uses 64(EAX4.0) and 128(EAX5.0) channels and downmixes to whatever you have (HP/2.1/4.1/5.1/7.1)

EAX also adds environmental effects like reverb, delays and whatever else.

I know how to set it up, it's just overrated

[Donnie27]

dude.... you are misunderstanding

CMSS3D downmixing = DOLBY downmixing

I fully understand how to set up my card, but you must understand what I'm talking about with the weak rear soundstage in EAX. You're in denial if you don't.

Either 3d sound emulation takse a signal with more speakers and sample it to fewer. The soundstage is preserved pretty well in my opinion

Your seriously making me angry saying dolby is only for canned sounds, as that makes no sense. You must have a misunderstanding of something, or are a victim to marketing:rolleyes:

CMSS nad DOLBY, map the sounds, and downscale to 2.1/HP, thats it.

EAX uses 64(EAX4.0) and 128(EAX5.0) channels and downmixes to whatever you have (HP/2.1/4.1/5.1/7.1)

EAX also adds environmental effects like reverb, delays and whatever else.

I know how to set it up, it's just overrated

I want to laugh but not piss you off or anything. Part of Dolby's problem is SOURCE! Dolby can work similar to CMSS3D but its SOURCE is not the same. Let me try this one more time. Dolby has No Surround Sound plus anything greater than EAX 2 to work with. At best it has 5.1 surround sound with very little to NO environmental effects. Canned meaning Movies has ALL OF THE effects pre-rendered and Dolby works GREAT for those. I said GAMES and they are NOT prerendered.

At best the Xonar can do a simulation of about 25% of the Games' EAX features. Dolby doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of rendering the effects of 4 different areas, sound morph, elevation, Game voice, doing them in real time with low latency. It is overrated. Especially to folks who's NOT used it on a half assed decent system.

I've tested Xonar and like it for a HTPC but for Games? Hell, may as well use Mobo sound and DDL that ships with P43, P45 and P48 + some of the newer ATI boards I think.

[Stanley Pain]

In with the new out with the old. the drivers on the CD with work fine with vista x64. the third party drivers don't work with this card yet. I had to buy new cables for my Gigaworks S750 speakers bestbuy had the cables for half the price of radioshack :shakes:


How's the card been treating you? I almost feel like "upgrading" from a Prelude to the Forte heh..

[Richard Dower]

How is it an "upgrade"?....i thought the Forte was an inferior and lower end card compared to the Prelude??

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

I have one of these cards on its way to me now :up: It looks really great

[Stanley Pain]

How is it an "upgrade"?....i thought the Forte was an inferior and lower end card compared to the Prelude??

That's why I used "upgrade". I like new things. As far as specs go, they are pretty much the same except one is a low profile card + PCI-Express. Unless I'm missing something here.

[Richard Dower]

The Prelude has more "retail space" and components on the PCB....if it was better then the Prelude then i'd buy one......

[Donnie27]

The Prelude has more "retail space" and components on the PCB....if it was better then the Prelude then i'd buy one......

I'd not think of it as an upgrade. It might something for folks who have a need to get rid of PCI and move to PCI-E. One thing Creative did right is move to a Native PCI-E, not a short cut like the others did.

The Forte is not much different size wise than the PCI Creative Xtreme Gamer. This didn't change anything sound wise on that card. The HT Auzen Card will be full size due to HDMI in and out and other features needing that space.

[Boogerlad]

is it more of a sidegrade? would changing caps be any better?what dacs are on it?

[Donnie27]

is it more of a sidegrade? would changing caps be any better?what dacs are on it?

Sideways is a good way to look it and the DACs aren't different than the Prelude's.

[Boogerlad]

so lm4562?

[safan80]

How's the card been treating you? I almost feel like "upgrading" from a Prelude to the Forte heh..

the card is nice it sounds much better than the X-Fi Fatal1ty pci sound card I have.

if you want to know more about the card look at this thread
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=215460

I'll be happy to make screenshots if anyone wants to see a particular option.

[Bradan]

I want to laugh but not piss you off or anything. Part of Dolby's problem is SOURCE! Dolby can work similar to CMSS3D but its SOURCE is not the same. Let me try this one more time. Dolby has No Surround Sound plus anything greater than EAX 2 to work with. At best it has 5.1 surround sound with very little to NO environmental effects. Canned meaning Movies has ALL OF THE effects pre-rendered and Dolby works GREAT for those. I said GAMES and they are NOT prerendered.

At best the Xonar can do a simulation of about 25% of the Games' EAX features. Dolby doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of rendering the effects of 4 different areas, sound morph, elevation, Game voice, doing them in real time with low latency. It is overrated. Especially to folks who's NOT used it on a half assed decent system.

I've tested Xonar and like it for a HTPC but for Games? Hell, may as well use Mobo sound and DDL that ships with P43, P45 and P48 + some of the newer ATI boards I think.



Sorry for the late reply, but you're talking to somebody with a creative card with EAX 4 suppourt. You're overexaggerating it a little bit. You need alchemy installed, I'm not sure if you're on Vista, but if you don't have creative's alchemy installed + added the game.exe, you don't have EAX.

You don't understand how the downmixing works, you just repeated yourself and moved on. It just adjusts latencies of sounds and adds psychoacoustic effects associated with the direction of the sound.

Game sounds are canned if they are produced by the game(openAL or w/e) in 5.1 or 7.1, and then downmixed to a stereo headphone signal by dolby headphone or cmss3d.

Go ahead and laugh, I'm an ignorant consumer waiting to be educated by creative's marketing, go.

[ToTTenTranz]

Sorry for the late reply, but you're talking to somebody with a creative card with EAX 4 suppourt. You're overexaggerating it a little bit. You need alchemy installed, I'm not sure if you're on Vista, but if you don't have creative's alchemy installed + added the game.exe, you don't have EAX.

You don't have EAX in Vista without Alchemy, but you do have OpenAL, which is supported by all Creative cards since Audigy. However, the latest OpenAL is basically EAX 4.0 plus some features of EAX 5.0. This is because OpenAL is actually being mostly developed by Creative itself, and they're the ones who own almost every 3D-audio processing patent right now.
So saying it has OpenAL, like every UE3 engine game, is the same as saying it supports EAX. For the end-user, it's just the name that changed.


You don't understand how the downmixing works, you just repeated yourself and moved on. It just adjusts latencies of sounds and adds psychoacoustic effects associated with the direction of the sound.

Game sounds are canned if they are produced by the game(openAL or w/e) in 5.1 or 7.1, and then downmixed to a stereo headphone signal by dolby headphone or cmss3d.

First, you definitely need to know that "number of sound voices" has nothing to do with "number of sound channels". -> This is mostly why you're saying so much nonsense.

Sound channels is the ammount of speakers you're using, stereo, 4.0, 5.1, 7.1 etc. Sound voices is the number of sound sources the 3D audio engine can take, be it hardware (most Creative cards) or software (everything else). 64 sound channels means you can hear up to 64 different things in the game (steps from an enemy, birds singing, river flowing, etc), it doesn't matter if you're using 8 speakers or just two.

Downmixing won't "erase" sounds from the game, that would be plain stupid.


Go ahead and laugh, I'm an ignorant consumer waiting to be educated by creative's marketing, go.

Well, I also want to laugh from a lot of stuff you wrote in your previous posts.. But I guess I'll be polite.

At least if you had been educated by Creative's marketing, you wouldn't be saying stuff like "dolby downmixing = cmss3d downmixing". :rolleyes:

And yes, dolby is only for canned sounds. Dolby labs only does encoding and/or compressing, decoding, upmixing and downmixing. There's no DSP functionality in that list.

[iddqd]

Asus Xonar is software based and will always cause lag or latency. See it as the CPU emulating a Sound Card LOL!
Care to elaborate? I haven't used a discrete sound card in at least 8 years, but this makes me curious. Sounds like it's not any better than bog-standard onboard AC'97.

[16floz470ml]

This review is older but it is relevant. http://techgage.com/article/asus_xonar_dx_71_sound_card/5

It shows that the Xonar will eat up about 10% of your cpu.

[Donnie27]

Sorry for the late reply, but you're talking to somebody with a creative card with EAX 4 suppourt. You're overexaggerating it a little bit. You need alchemy installed, I'm not sure if you're on Vista, but if you don't have 3*creative's alchemy installed + added the game.exe, you don't have EAX.

You don't understand how the downmixing works, you just repeated yourself and moved on. 2*It just adjusts latencies of sounds and adds psychoacoustic effects associated with the direction of the sound.

1*Game sounds are canned if they are produced by the game(openAL or w/e) in 5.1 or 7.1, and then downmixed to a stereo headphone signal by dolby headphone or cmss3d.

Go ahead and laugh, I'm an ignorant consumer waiting to be educated by creative's marketing, go.

I/m not exaggerating because I'm gaming on a Couple of Harmon Kardons and kick assed speakers. They pick up all kinds of small nuances missed by Logitech and Klipsch Multimedia speakers.

You're danged right I laugh at some rude poster. At least I tried not to be Rude:up: You ONLY NEED Alchemy for Direct Sound Based Games for Hardware acceleration or On card processing. Even many Noobs know that. So no, you're the one here who's not understanding what you're posting. OpenAL games that also support EAX have ZERO problem with EAX in Vista and you don't need Alchemy for that support. Please read up on EAX and OpenAL or else you move on:rolleyes:

http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/OpenAL%20Wiki/OpenAL%C2%AE%20and%20Windows%20Vista%E2%84%A2.aspx

Game sound aren't canned. Do you understand what canned means? Canned is taken from a Term the movie industry used to say a movie was finished, no more work (like editing is needed). Dolby headphone works with DVD's because a DVD is Canned. Game aren't Canned because they're interactive. They have almost NOTHING in common with a DVD. CMSS 3D and DVD can do the same thing with DVD's. There's just one little problem for Dolby HP though. It has not Pre or Pos rendered EAX 3, 4 or 5 so it can't Down or even Re-Sample LOL! Dolby headphone on the Zonar might work if the Zonar could truly do EAX 3, 4, and 5, it CAN'T though. OpenAL on Windows Vista or Windows XP is (or should be) the same. I'm Dual Booted BTW.

[Donnie27]

Care to elaborate? I haven't used a discrete sound card in at least 8 years, but this makes me curious. Sounds like it's not any better than bog-standard onboard AC'97.

The Zonar uses a re badged CMedia chip that's similar to the RealteK on board sound chips. These act more like a Chipset than a Processor like the one X-Fi uses. Comparing a Zonar to a X-Fi is like comparing a Realtek 10/100 NIC (software) to an Intel Pro 10/100/1000 NIC (hardware).

The Forte, just like the Prelude before it makes up for 95% of Creative's short comings. It ships with Great DACs that on board can't touch and excellent hardware as well. Caps, Gold Connectors, pretty good layout and etc.. makes it hard to beat. IMHO, it will take more than Zonar to beat it.

[Bradan]

You don't have EAX in Vista without Alchemy, but you do have OpenAL, which is supported by all Creative cards since Audigy. However, the latest OpenAL is basically EAX 4.0 plus some features of EAX 5.0. This is because OpenAL is actually being mostly developed by Creative itself, and they're the ones who own almost every 3D-audio processing patent right now.
So saying it has OpenAL, like every UE3 engine game, is the same as saying it supports EAX. For the end-user, it's just the name that changed.

I know, but you don't need a creative card for openAL.



First, you definitely need to know that "number of sound voices" has nothing to do with "number of sound channels". -> This is mostly why you're saying so much nonsense.

No, not at all. A lot of games don't suppourt openAL. Downmixing is a good way to get some directional sound from headphones. CMSS does the same sort of downmixing Dolby HP does.



Sound channels is the ammount of speakers you're using, stereo, 4.0, 5.1, 7.1 etc. Sound voices is the number of sound sources the 3D audio engine can take, be it hardware (most Creative cards) or software (everything else). 64 sound channels means you can hear up to 64 different things in the game (steps from an enemy, birds singing, river flowing, etc), it doesn't matter if you're using 8 speakers or just two.

I know. Again, I'm saying the downmixing is useful for non-openAL. I'm alost 100% sure you don't need a creative card to have 64 voices, just openAL.



Downmixing won't "erase" sounds from the game, that would be plain stupid.

Sorry, I must have actually wrote that, and you're not putting words in my mouth, that would be stupid.



Well, I also want to laugh from a lot of stuff you wrote in your previous posts.. But I guess I'll be polite.


You're actually being rude. Grow up and stop being a pompous, condescending internet tough guy and discuss the subject matter please.



At least if you had been educated by Creative's marketing, you wouldn't be saying stuff like "dolby downmixing = cmss3d downmixing". :rolleyes:

They aren't very different. They downmix larger numbers of channels to smaller numbers. :rolleyes: The fanboy in you likes the CMSS3D better.



And yes, dolby is only for canned sounds. Dolby labs only does encoding and/or compressing, decoding, upmixing and downmixing. There's no DSP functionality in that list.

Yup. It's the downmixing I'm talking about. OpenAL is available for everybody though, so I don't get what's actually better for creativie cards.


I/m not exaggerating because I'm gaming on a Couple of Harmon Kardons and kick assed speakers. They pick up all kinds of small nuances missed by Logitech and Klipsch Multimedia speakers.

Ya, my Denon AH-D2000 (http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3463.asp) aren't very good, but they do the job.

The equipment I have doesn't validate my opnion though.



You're danged right I laugh at some rude poster. At least I tried not to be Rude:up: You ONLY NEED Alchemy for Direct Sound Based Games for Hardware acceleration or On card processing. Even many Noobs know that. So no, you're the one here who's not understanding what you're posting. OpenAL games that also support EAX have ZERO problem with EAX in Vista and you don't need Alchemy for that support. Please read up on EAX and OpenAL or else you move on:rolleyes:

Sorry about this point. I have an audigy 4, and I need to use alchemy to use EAX in UT3, BF2 etc.

It will be like this for you in a year or two though.



http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/OpenAL%20Wiki/OpenAL%C2%AE%20and%20Windows%20Vista%E2%84%A2.aspx

Game sound aren't canned. Do you understand what canned means? Canned is taken from a Term the movie industry used to say a movie was finished, no more work (like editing is needed). Dolby headphone works with DVD's because a DVD is Canned. Game are Canned because they're interactive. They have almost NOTHING in common with a DVD. CMSS 3D and DVD can do the same thing with DVD's. There's just one little problem for Dolby HP though. It has not Pre or Pos rendered EAX 3, 4 or 5 so it can't Down or even Re-Sample LOL! Dolby headphone on the Zonar might work if the Zonar could truly do EAX 3, 4, and 5, it CAN'T though. OpenAL on Windows Vista or Windows XP is (or should be) the same. I'm Dual Booted BTW.

Wait... what? I think OpenAl isn't card specific?

[Solus Corvus]

The Zonar uses a re badged CMedia chip that's similar to the RealteK on board sound chips. These act more like a Chipset than a Processor like the one X-Fi uses. Comparing a Zonar to a X-Fi is like comparing a Realtek 10/100 NIC (software) to an Intel Pro 10/100/1000 NIC (hardware).
Cheap quad cores make the difference in cpu usage between the two almost irrelevant. But what is relevant to music lovers is the quality of the sound the chip produces. In that regard the xonar matches or beats the prelude.

As for games, I just want basic effects and good positional audio. EAX is nice but I'm done supporting creative.

[hollo]

the forte looks great, but i'm going for the hometheatre hd http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_hometheater_hd.php
output as many channels as you want at a bit-depth and sample rate as high as you want to an external amp over HDMI
/computer sound

now, if only they'd make a version with no analogue dacs or connections, that'd make it a bit cheaper

[Jodiuh]

*caution...all :banana::banana::banana::banana:load of questions and topics incoming*

Is there a nice little guide that goes over all the little nuances of CMSS3D, openAL, elevation filter, macrofx, proper setup of external programs/games when using the X-Fi? I've been emu chip less for almost a year now and wanna catch myself up to speed. Specifically game settings on headphones for best positional pinpoisonal hacking! *cough* L4D *cough* Just got back from a LAN and damn this fool popped me from everywhere. Using some Logitech usb jibber jab, no less!

I sort of ran over my elite pro and had to use onboard in a pinch. Well, damned if the mic doesn't come through cleaner than I've ever heard! (supreme FX II, ADI 1988?)

I checked out the vanilla Titanium and it seemed "crisper" than my older pci based X-Fi's. CD's ripped by winamp to FLAC played back in winamp sounded overly bright compared to how I remember the Elite Pro. Am I correct in noticing little difference between ripping w/ EAC, foobar playback compared to Winamp? That's not something to be concerned w/ anymore, right? It's just my distaste for that particular card and especially this onboard scratch board. My little Sony NWZ-S616F sounds so much warmer...you know, foot tapping good. I used to get lost in the Elite Pro...RIP little buddy. :(

What about differences in the pci vs pcie chip? Anything there? Source w/ some FAQ bits?

Sorry for all the q's, but I've been eyeballing the Forte for some time now. Some rants on newegg about the mic, but an [H]forumite said all's well now. That true? Mic = winner? L4D depends on my screaming rants to survive!! SERIOUS business of zOMBIe killin'!

Also, how would this onboard headphone amp compare to oh...let's say my MisterX built Pimeta? I had it tuned for some HD580's. Avoid or try plugging in to that first?

[iddqd]

The Zonar uses a re badged CMedia chip that's similar to the RealteK on board sound chips. These act more like a Chipset than a Processor like the one X-Fi uses. Comparing a Zonar to a X-Fi is like comparing a Realtek 10/100 NIC (software) to an Intel Pro 10/100/1000 NIC (hardware).

The Forte, just like the Prelude before it makes up for 95% of Creative's short comings. It ships with Great DACs that on board can't touch and excellent hardware as well. Caps, Gold Connectors, pretty good layout and etc.. makes it hard to beat. IMHO, it will take more than Zonar to beat it.

I see. What about HT Omega Striker? And... I guess other HT|OMEGA products? What do they use?

[Donnie27]

I know, but you don't need a creative card for openAL.

That was never the point and the same mistake you keep making over, and over again. As I already said, EAX adds to OpenAL. EAX adds Enviroments and etc.. to OpenAL.


No, not at all. A lot of games don't suppourt openAL. Downmixing is a good way to get some directional sound from headphones. CMSS does the same sort of downmixing Dolby HP does..

Name them? In fact most games that depend on emersive sounds use OpenAL see the list from the link I gave you.


I know. Again, I'm saying the downmixing is useful for non-openAL. I'm alost 100% sure you don't need a creative card to have 64 voices, just openAL..

Creative Audigy does 64 voices, X-Fi does a 128 and EAX 5 adds other features the Aduigy can't support. This done by the card in hardware, not a in software.


Sorry, I must have actually wrote that, and you're not putting words in my mouth, that would be stupid..

You implied that Dolby HP could do what CMSS3D does when it can't since any card using Dolby HP can't do EAX 3, 4, and 5.


They aren't very different. They downmix larger numbers of channels to smaller numbers. :rolleyes: The fanboy in you likes the CMSS3D better..

That's rediculous. We know CMSS3D and Dolby HP works. You're just missing the point. Please see the first reply. Dolby HP can't re-mix, upmix, down-mix or any other kind of mix something it doesn't have. Now please don't take that out of context again.


Yup. It's the downmixing I'm talking about. OpenAL is available for everybody though, so I don't get what's actually better for creativie cards..

Same mistake again, see above?



Ya, my Denon AH-D2000 (http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3463.asp) aren't very good, but they do the job..

They are very good. You'd easily notice a difference between the Audigy and X-Fi Forte:up: Ctreative and X-Fi Forte sounds better than the Audigy=P


The equipment I have doesn't validate my opnion though..

Like hell it doesn't! You have to at least have tested what you claim to know about. There's NOTHING like Hands on experience=P


Sorry about this point. I have an audigy 4, and I need to use alchemy to use EAX in UT3, BF2 etc..

If you do use alchemy like that, you're wasting your time.
http://connect.creativelabs.com/developer/Wiki/Introduction%20to%20OpenAL.aspx


OpenAL is the API of choice for many recent games and game engines, including:

Doom 3 Engine
Unreal 3 Engine
Torque Engine
Quake 4
Doom 3
Cold War

Go here (http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/OpenAL%20Wiki/Games.aspx) for a complete listing?


Unreal 2 (Windows)
Unreal Tournament 2003 (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
Unreal Tournament 2004 (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
Unreal Tournament 3 ( ? Windows ?)

Eve Ureal 1 had add on mod packs for EAX support after the fact.


It will be like this for you in a year or two though.

Sorry, here you are late and wrong. In fact, not my opinion, it is harder to find a First Person Shooter without both OpenAL and EAX.


Wait... what? I think OpenAl isn't card specific?

Same mistake again and it is not a laughing matter to folks coming here for info. OpenAL without full EAX support is like Cake without Icing or Frosting.

[Donnie27]

I see. What about HT Omega Striker? And... I guess other HT|OMEGA products? What do they use?

The used the CMedia Chip until Asus bought Full Exclusive rights to it. These cards are very good HTPC cards. Look, I don't think it or the Asus cards suck for Games, I just think the X-Fi is much better.


Cheap quad cores make the difference in cpu usage between the two almost irrelevant. But what is relevant to music lovers is the quality of the sound the chip produces. In that regard the xonar matches or beats the prelude.

As for games, I just want basic effects and good positional audio. EAX is nice but I'm done supporting creative.

No it doesn't beat the Prelude with different Opamps for music playback. You pick the Opamps to suit your tastes on ether.

For games, just think Muhammad Ali:D "Float like a butterfly, sting like a Bee. Your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see." The sound card is faster than the CPU because;

A. It isn't a General Purpose CPU and meant only for one specific task, sort of like a Cell Processor.

B. CPU needs the software version of EAX. Just like the software version of OpenAL. Even the X-Fi Xtreme Audio, it doesn't have that support.

C. It is not a matter of total speed of CPU vs the sound card DSP-APU. It is a matter of which is closer to the DAC for final output. CPU is slowed by the PCI Bus or Translation Chips on PCI-E cards.

Lastly, Creative seems to have done a very good job on the PCI-E from what I've seen. There are PCI-E versions owners that are better judges that I. My use has been very limited. Unlike the Asus cards, there is no Translation Chip. X-Fi PCI-E is native:up:

Edit, I gave it 95% because some folks still have Mic problems.

[Loque]

^ I got a X-FI Titanium and agree, I thought my microphone sucked and even bought a new one, but it still kept doing a lot of background noise no matter what settings I used, then I just decided to enable the motherboard's audio ac97 and plugged in the mic there and its flawless sound.. it even got more audio quality options than the X-FI, not to mention an additional mic boost slider too..

[Donnie27]

^ I got a X-FI Titanium and agree, I thought my microphone sucked and even bought a new one, but it still kept doing a lot of background noise no matter what settings I used, then I just decided to enable the motherboard's audio ac97 and plugged in the mic there and its flawless sound.. it even got more audio quality options than the X-FI, not to mention an additional mic boost slider too..

Yepp:yepp:! I've complained stright to Creative about this.

[Solus Corvus]

No it doesn't beat the Prelude with different Opamps for music playback. You pick the Opamps to suit your tastes on ether.
Yes, the D2X matches or slightly beats the Prelude (stock opamps) in sound quality measurements and subjective listening. Granted, the D2X doesn't have replaceable opamps. The Essence STX does have replaceable opamps though and it beats both the Prelude and D2X in sound quality.


For games, just think Muhammad Ali:D "Float like a butterfly, sting like a Bee. Your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see." The sound card is faster than the CPU because;

A. It isn't a General Purpose CPU and meant only for one specific task, sort of like a Cell Processor.
There is also a huge difference in the power of a CPU and an X-Fi. I would guess that the hardware solution may be slightly faster in terms of latency - but I'm not going to to accept it as fact without some sort of evidence. Unless you measure it how could you say definitively how much latency each solution has? You can't.


B. CPU needs the software version of EAX. Just like the software version of OpenAL. Even the X-Fi Xtreme Audio, it doesn't have that support.
Um, ok.


C. It is not a matter of total speed of CPU vs the sound card DSP-APU. It is a matter of which is closer to the DAC for final output. CPU is slowed by the PCI Bus or Translation Chips on PCI-E cards.

Lastly, Creative seems to have done a very good job on the PCI-E from what I've seen. There are PCI-E versions owners that are better judges that I. My use has been very limited. Unlike the Asus cards, there is no Translation Chip. X-Fi PCI-E is native:up:
Is there some latency caused by the bridge? Yeah, possibly. How much is it? I don't know and you probably don't either. What I do know is that the latency of my xonar is low enough that I can't distinguish it from hardware solutions in twitch games (L4D for example).

And what do points A-C have to do with sound QUALITY? Nothing. The signal is digital until it hits the DAC.

[16floz470ml]

the forte looks great, but i'm going for the hometheatre hd http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_hometheater_hd.php
output as many channels as you want at a bit-depth and sample rate as high as you want to an external amp over HDMI
/computer sound

now, if only they'd make a version with no analogue dacs or connections, that'd make it a bit cheaper

That is a very impressive sound card. I can't wait to hear how all the software based cards are better than this one.

[Donnie27]

Yes, the D2X matches or slightly beats the Prelude (stock opamps) in sound quality measurements and subjective listening. Granted, the D2X doesn't have replaceable opamps. The Essence STX does have replaceable opamps though and it beats both the Prelude and D2X in sound quality.[/QUTOE]

So how could it be better if you switch out and use the same Opamps? The questions was asked first about the Forte and not the Prelude. IMHO, it wouldn't matter. It would be hard for either one of us to say which is better with the same Opamps.

[QUOTE=Solus Corvus;3718634]There is also a huge difference in the power of a CPU and an X-Fi. I would guess that the hardware solution may be slightly faster in terms of latency - but I'm not going to to accept it as fact without some sort of evidence. Unless you measure it how could you say definitively how much latency each solution has? You can't.

Given the same software the sound card use, I've sure the CPU would crush it. Then the CPU has to send this data back through the PCI Bus. That causes a hit.



Um, ok.
Is there some latency caused by the bridge? Yeah, possibly. How much is it? I don't know and you probably don't either. What I do know is that the latency of my xonar is low enough that I can't distinguish it from hardware solutions in twitch games (L4D for example).

And what do points A-C have to do with sound QUALITY? Nothing. The signal is digital until it hits the DAC.

See above why?

The Digtal signal never leaves the sound card on the X-Fi. RAW interactive data is always on the sound card. Not sent to the CPU and back! That is if it is processed in the first place. That where A & C comes from:up: The Processor can't process what it can't see. Ref to Ali.

[Solus Corvus]

So how could it be better if you switch out and use the same Opamps? The questions was asked first about the Forte and not the Prelude. IMHO, it wouldn't matter. It would be hard for either one of us to say which is better with the same Opamps.
Opamps are only a part of the equation when it comes to sound quality. The entire analog audio pathway has to be considered. I have no idea why you'd think that two different cards would perform the same just because you put in the same opamp.


Given the same software the sound card use, I've sure the CPU would crush it. Then the CPU has to send this data back through the PCI Bus. That causes a hit.
The X-Fi still has to send data over the bus. The only difference is that software solutions have to process the effects before the is sent with help from the CPU while hardware solutions send the data to the card and then process the effects on-card. It's the same number of steps. The only real difference is how fast the CPU can process the effects versus how fast the X-Fi can. If the CPU is too slow it would manifest as latency in the audio output. But you can't just wave your hands and declare that the cpu adds measurable/noticeable latency without proof. For all we know, without proof, the CPU is equally fast at processing effects and there is no latency difference at all.


The Digtal signal never leaves the sound card on the X-Fi. RAW interactive data is always on the sound card. Not sent to the CPU and back! That is if it is processed in the first place. That where A & C comes from:up: The Processor can't process what it can't see. Ref to Ali.
I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense.

[ToTTenTranz]

But you can't just wave your hands and declare that the cpu adds measurable/noticeable latency without proof. For all we know, without proof, the CPU is equally fast at processing effects and there is no latency difference at all.

By stressing the CPU, it will lower your minimum FPS (http://techgage.com/article/asus_xonar_dx_71_sound_card/5).

And this is using the pseudo-eax 5 emulation-wanabee from Asus, not with true EAX 5.0 features.

If the CPU actually had to process 128 voices with 4 effects each, I bet it would take quite a chunk of its power, and maybe it would stall the system for good.

The EMU20K1 from the X-Fi has 50 million transistors of dedicated DSP hardware. That's as much as a Geforce 3 Ti. Do you think a quad-core could render a scene that stresses a Geforce 3 Ti (chameleon mark, for example), and at the same time handle the rest of the system?

[Solus Corvus]

By stressing the CPU, it will lower your minimum FPS (http://techgage.com/article/asus_xonar_dx_71_sound_card/5).
That seems to be an extreme case. The minimum is more often within 3 fps or less. And it also appears to be highly dependent on the the driver used.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/14500/4
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/asus_xonar_essence_stx_review/page6.asp
http://techreport.com/articles.x/13874/6


And this is using the pseudo-eax 5 emulation-wanabee from Asus, not with true EAX 5.0 features.
As long as Creative refuses to open up the spec all anyone else can do is emulation.


If the CPU actually had to process 128 voices with 4 effects each, I bet it would take quite a chunk of its power, and maybe it would stall the system for good.
Any evidence for this claim?


The EMU20K1 from the X-Fi has 50 million transistors of dedicated DSP hardware. That's as much as a Geforce 3 Ti. Do you think a quad-core could render a scene that stresses a Geforce 3 Ti (chameleon mark, for example), and at the same time handle the rest of the system?
The OxygenHD is a capable DSP in its own right. The only thing the CPU needs to do is process the effects.

[ToTTenTranz]

That seems to be an extreme case. The minimum is more often within 3 fps or less. And it also appears to be highly dependent on the the driver used.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/14500/4
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/asus_xonar_essence_stx_review/page6.asp
http://techreport.com/articles.x/13874/6

Your point being? It's still lowering the minimum FPS..




As long as Creative refuses to open up the spec all anyone else can do is emulation.
Creative already "gave away" EAX 1+2+3+4 with OpenAL. Given that all EAX versions were developed by their engineers, I think it's only fair that they keep the top-of-the-line to their own hardware, otherwise they would be financing their competitors, right?

Plus, emulating full EAX 5.0 could cripple most CPUs. Don't you think there's a reason why Creative themselves won't allow EAX 5 to be included in non-EMU20K1 hardware? Even with their own hardware (XtremeAudio, USB external and notebook X-Fis), if it doesn't have the X-Fi processor, they won't support EAX 5.


Any evidence for this claim?
Yes, benchmarks from Rightmark 3D Sound (http://techreport.com/articles.x/11759/6), which only tests for EAX 2.0 and already shows a considerable load in a CPU. EAX 5.0 in "full throttle" is exponentially more demanding than EAX 2.0. FWIW, EAX 2.0 was done in hardware with the 2 million transistors EMU10K1 (SB Live!), whereas the EAX 5.0 is done in hardware with the 50 million transistors EMU20K1 (X-Fi).



The OxygenHD is a capable DSP in its own right. The only thing the CPU needs to do is process the effects.
No, it's not. DSP stands for "digital signal processing". The Oxygen HD has no hardware processing at all, even if they call it a "processor".
See their hardware specs (http://www.cmedia.com.tw/pci_cmI8787.html) for yourself:


Hardware Features
l PCI 2.2 interface with bus mastering and burst modes
l 4 synchronous I2S output pairs
l 4 synchronous I2S input pairs
l Multi-channel AC-link can support 2 AC97 codecs
l All I2S I/O pairs support 32-bit high-definition PCM data transfer and adjustable sample rate up to 192KHz
l Integrated 192k/24-bit S/PDIF transmitter
l Integrated 192k/24-bit S/PDIF receiver
l S/PDIF IN supports digital loop back path for transforming between optical and RCA connection
l Serial bus to communicate with micro control unit (MCU)
l MPU-401 MIDI UART port support
l EEPROM control interface
l 9 direct access GPIO pins
l 128-pin LQFP high-quality thin package
l Optional: Front panel design available with ac97 codec


Everything that's DSP-related (3d sound, equalization, reverberation, virtual speaker etc) is listed in the software features:


Software Features
l C-Media Magic Voice popular feature for disguising your tone in online chatting
l C-Media Xear 3D 7.1 Virtual Speaker shifter technology
l C-Media unique Karaoke functions: Microphone Echo, Key-Shifting
l 27 global reverberation environments
l Play3D demo program
l Supports most industrial standards of PC 3D sound for gaming, including EAX 1.0&2.0 and DirectSound
l Support 7.1 CH digital audio playback for WinXP 64, WinXP ,Win2000 (MicrosoftR DirectX V.9.0 above is required)
l Linux driver available

[Donnie27]

Opamps are only a part of the equation when it comes to sound quality. The entire analog audio pathway has to be considered. I have no idea why you'd think that two different cards would perform the same just because you put in the same opamp.


The X-Fi still has to send data over the bus. The only difference is that software solutions have to process the effects before the is sent with help from the CPU while hardware solutions send the data to the card and then process the effects on-card. It's the same number of steps. The only real difference is how fast the CPU can process the effects versus how fast the X-Fi can. If the CPU is too slow it would manifest as latency in the audio output. But you can't just wave your hands and declare that the cpu adds measurable/noticeable latency without proof. For all we know, without proof, the CPU is equally fast at processing effects and there is no latency difference at all.


I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense.

Now that makes no sense. Sound data is sent straight to the processor and the CMedia Chip deals with it after the fact=P It does Post Processing, not much else beside Decoding Cinema Effects .

Of course it doesn't make sense to you;) The CPU needs a Translation Layer to process the same EAX data as the Sound Card that ships with its own SIMD for that data:up: That's like saying the Processor should do Multiple threads OpenGL instead of the video card. The Processor can't process ("Hit") what it can't see (EAX)=P

The Processor can Process OpenAL it has software written for it for that support. EAX is not Open and the Asus Hack is Hit and miss, more miss than hit. Those times when it does Emulate some of the EAX features it takes a hit performance wise. It doesn't adversely affect Frame Rates when it is NOT making the CPU process effects or anything else. To be clear here, IT AIN'T DOING EAX or 128 voices with 4 effects each so it shouldn't cause a hit to FPS in Games. When it is partially working, it does cause hit and DOESN'T sound as good for Games.


Opamps are only a part of the equation when it comes to sound quality. The entire analog audio pathway has to be considered. I have no idea why you'd think that two different cards would perform the same just because you put in the same opamp.

We're talking about the Forte here and it is not like it is a POS using cheap parts. I have no idea why you think there is much of a difference between them.

Data is sent to the X-Fi Forte over the PCI-E bus and is processed just as if it were a Video card. What part of that you're not getting?

APU's like the X-Fi doesn't depend on the CPU like Audio Conduets that Asus uses. There's even another hit as the PCI to PCI-E converter chip does its job. Again, the more the EAX like features, the more the hit. Almost no hit when its not doing anything sound effects wise.

Edit, MSI, Auzentech and even nVidia have Creative Licenses:up:

[Solus Corvus]

Your point being? It's still lowering the minimum FPS..
By a handful of fps on an old athlon and by only a few fps on a mild speed C2D. My point is that powerful quad cores and beyond are going to make the difference between hardware and software processing moot.


Creative already "gave away" EAX 1+2+3+4 with OpenAL. Given that all EAX versions were developed by their engineers, I think it's only fair that they keep the top-of-the-line to their own hardware, otherwise they would be financing their competitors, right?
Loki software developed OpenAL, Creative only took over later after they went under. And the OpenAL 1.1 spec deprecates EAX in favor of the open EFX.

Plus, emulating full EAX 5.0 could cripple most CPUs. Don't you think there's a reason why Creative themselves won't allow EAX 5 to be included in non-EMU20K1 hardware? Even with their own hardware (XtremeAudio, USB external and notebook X-Fis), if it doesn't have the X-Fi processor, they won't support EAX 5.
So creative just decided that all this hardware they have been selling you is superfluous when they deprecated EAX in favor of EFX?

There is a single reason that they only allow EAX5 on certain products: marketing.


Yes, benchmarks from Rightmark 3D Sound (http://techreport.com/articles.x/11759/6), which only tests for EAX 2.0 and already shows a considerable load in a CPU. EAX 5.0 in "full throttle" is exponentially more demanding than EAX 2.0. FWIW, EAX 2.0 was done in hardware with the 2 million transistors EMU10K1 (SB Live!), whereas the EAX 5.0 is done in hardware with the 50 million transistors EMU20K1 (X-Fi).
I asked if you had any proof that 128 voices with 4 effects would stall a system. Clearly you don't.

Why'd you link that particular benchmark when tests with newer drivers on newer systems show completely different results (http://techreport.com/articles.x/14500/5)? Or why'd you ignore the ADI1988A, also a software solution, that has lower usage then the X-Fi in the tests you linked? Why did you link to the old test that was done on old athlons instead of the newer tests? You could have at least linked to this test (http://techreport.com/articles.x/13874/7), but 13% cpu usage doesn't sound as impressive as 25% does it?



Now that makes no sense. Sound data is sent straight to the processor and the CMedia Chip deals with it after the fact=P It does Post Processing, not much else beside Decoding Cinema Effects .
The processor still sees the data being sent to an X-Fi card, it just doesn't do any work on it.


Of course it doesn't make sense to you;) The CPU needs a Translation Layer to process the same EAX data as the Sound Card that ships with its own SIMD for that data:up: That's like saying the Processor should do Multiple threads OpenGL instead of the video card. The Processor can't process ("Hit") what it can't see (EAX)=P
The processor still "sees" the data. The CPU still handles the sound data and ships it to the sound card. The Xonar and X-Fi both still need drivers to work. The X-Fi driver makes a call to the X-Fi chip to process the effects and ships the data to the card. The Xonar makes a call to the CPU to process the effects and ships the data to the card.


We're talking about the Forte here and it is not like it is a POS using cheap parts. I have no idea why you think there is much of a difference between them.
I didn't say it's a POS - it is a high quality sound card. What I did say is that the Xonar Essence STX is better (SNR, THD, Frequency response). I think that there is a difference between them because it has been measured in reviews and subjective listening tests.


Data is sent to the X-Fi Forte over the PCI-E bus and is processed just as if it were a Video card. What part of that you're not getting?
The signal is digital until it hits the DAC on either card. I was willing to concede that the bridge chip might add some latency, but you need to show some evidence to that effect if you want me to agree to it as fact. Other then latency this whole "Native versus bridge PCI-E" hand waving is irrelevant.

[Donnie27]

By a handful of fps on an old athlon and by only a few fps on a mild speed C2D. My point is that powerful quad cores and beyond are going to make the difference between hardware and software processing moot.

Loki software developed OpenAL, Creative only took over later after they went under. And the OpenAL 1.1 spec deprecates EAX in favor of the open EFX.

Yea Right. Not even close.


So creative just decided that all this hardware they have been selling you is superfluous when they deprecated EAX in favor of EFX?

There is a single reason that they only allow EAX5 on certain products: marketing.

Make of it what you like. The only thing seemingly fake and misguided here is trying to downplay something that's well supported.

http://kcat.strangesoft.net/openal.html

Still needs work:up: Marketing:rofl: The sound effects coming out of my system isn't marketing or psychoacoustics;)

I asked if you had any proof that 128 voices with 4 effects wouldn't stall a system the least little bit.


Why'd you link that particular benchmark when tests with newer drivers on newer systems show completely different results (http://techreport.com/articles.x/14500/5)? Or why'd you ignore the ADI1988A, also a software solution, that has lower usage then the X-Fi in the tests you linked? Why did you link to the old test that was done on old athlons instead of the newer tests? You could have at least linked to this test (http://techreport.com/articles.x/13874/7), but 13% cpu usage doesn't sound as impressive as 25% does it?

Because the ADI1988 and the Xonar aren't doing anything, geesh!


The processor still sees the data being sent to an X-Fi card, it just doesn't do any work on it.

It sees the data but CAN'T DO ANYTHING WITH IT but send it to the X-Fi.



The processor still "sees" the data. The CPU still handles the sound data and ships it to the sound card. The Xonar and X-Fi both still need drivers to work. The X-Fi driver makes a call to the X-Fi chip to process the effects and ships the data to the card. The Xonar makes a call to the CPU to process the effects and ships the data to the card.

See above?


I didn't say it's a POS - it is a high quality sound card. What I did say is that the Xonar Essence STX is better (SNR, THD, Frequency response). I think that there is a difference between them because it has been measured in reviews and subjective listening tests.

I said Forte was just as good and was better for gaming=P If you think any Xonar is better for Gaming or is that much different even for music playback, you're fooling yourself.



The signal is digital until it hits the DAC on either card. I was willing to concede that the bridge chip might add some latency, but you need to show some evidence to that effect if you want me to agree to it as fact. Other then latency this whole "Native versus bridge PCI-E" hand waving is irrelevant.

How about this? The CPU sends RAW data to one. It processes and then sends a Signal to the other. I still think you're missing the part where the CPU CAN'T PROCESS EAX that adds life to OpenAL.

If your ear can tell the difference between 116-6DB and 125/118db, you're good. Then please don't give links to sites using Logitech Z5500 speakers that can't even play that back at that level.

http://techgage.com/article/asus_xonar_d2_sound_card/7


Here's what the results show: Through all testing, the Creative Sound Blaster Audigy4 card delivered the lowest overall level of CPU utilization, staying under 10% even in the demanding 127-buffer test. The number of buffers increased at approximately n^2 for every scale division, while the CPU usage for the SB Audigy4 remained fairly constant. The Razer Barracuda AC-1 turned in the worst performance here, despite its styling as a 'gaming' audio card.

It appears that the newer CMI8788 drivers supplied with the ASUS Xonar D2 have managed to reduce CPU overhead somewhat, but in the 127-buffer test, CPU usage just barely tickled the 30% mark. The 127-buffer test is an extreme case, but it shows that the ASUS Xonar may not be the best card for gaming, a point only further reinforced by the lack of support for EAX versions after 2.0.

http://techgage.com/article/asus_xonar_dx_71_sound_card/5


The benefit of the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer Professional Edition card's X-Fi audio processor is readily apparent here, with the X-Fi's CPU utilization staying below 2%, even with 128 concurrent voices under EAX 2.0. The Xonar DX card performs behind the Xonar D2 in CPU utilization, despite the fact that the cards are based on essentially the same audio processor and signal path.

So what's different here? Most likely, the PLX PCI-Express bridge chip is placing additional load on the CPU here, while the D2 doesn't require a bridge chip at all, communicating natively across the PCI bus. The 8% CPU utilization figure for the Xonar DX with 128 voices under EAX 2.0 is a bit troubling - that's nearly 10% utilization of the CPU for audio processing. The X-Fi card only pulled an eighth of that, even under full processing load.

Again with the Forte X-Fi doing 128 voice with 4 effects + all the other effects compared to the Xonar doing what?

[Solus Corvus]

Yea Right. Not even close.
Which part isn't even close?

3 fps isn't close? Ok, if you say so.

Loki didn't develop OpenAL? Incorrect.


Make of it what you like. The only thing seemingly fake and misguided here is trying to downplay something that's well supported.
Yet you are trying to downplay anything other then X-Fi cards. The Xonars are great for music and perfectly fine for games if you don't care about EAX5. If you care about EAX5 then they are ok for some games and not good for others because of spotty emulation.


http://kcat.strangesoft.net/openal.html
What is this supposed to prove? That some random third party that none of us have mentioned till now is developing a software OpenAL layer? Lol.


Still needs work:up: Marketing:rofl: The sound effects coming out of my system isn't marketing or psychoacoustics;)
You misunderstand. The marketing element is that they won't allow EAX5 on lower hardware so they can position their high-end cards better with regards to price and features.


I asked if you had any proof that 128 voices with 4 effects wouldn't stall a system the least little bit.
I'm not the one making the positive claim in that regard. You have yet to demonstrate any case where cpu usage even approaches 50% during audio processing in games.


Because the ADI1988 and the Xonar aren't doing anything, geesh!
Incorrect. Rightmark uses EAX4. The Xonar is capable of EAX4 through emulation and both are fully capable of EAX2 processing (and that's as far as the ADI1988 goes, hence the 32 voices limit).


It sees the data but CAN'T DO ANYTHING WITH IT but send it to the X-Fi.
Ok. So?


I said Forte was just as good and was better for gaming=P If you think any Xonar is better for Gaming or is that much different even for music playback, you're fooling yourself.
I never said the Forte wasn't better for gaming. What I am saying is that the Xonar isn't bad for gaming, and is better for music. If you think that someone with high-end cans and good ears couldn't tell the difference, you are wrong.


How about this? The CPU sends RAW data to one. It processes and then sends a Signal to the other. I still think you're missing the part where the CPU CAN'T PROCESS EAX that adds life to OpenAL.
EAX doesn't add life to OpenAL. OpenAL has it's own specification for effects processing called EFX and it takes precedence over EAX as of the 1.1 OAL spec. There are quite a few games that use pure openal and in those games the xonar and x-fi are capable of exactly the same effects. The only OpenAL games that the xonar can't process all the effects for are games that don't use EFX such as recent ID engine titles.

Secondly, The CPU can process EAX just fine. What do you think SSE and AVX are for?


If your ear can tell the difference between 116-6DB and 125/118db, you're good.
Thanks. LOL.


Then please don't give links to sites using Logitech Z5500 speakers that can't even play that back at that level.
How about some links to Head-Fi? ;)


Again with the Forte X-Fi doing 128 voice with 4 effects + all the other effects compared to the Xonar doing what?
Read your own quote. The Xonar is doing 128 voices also. And Rightmark is only EAX4.0 so neither card is doing 4 effects per voice.

[Donnie27]

Which part isn't even close?

3 fps isn't close? Ok, if you say so.

Loki didn't develop OpenAL? Incorrect.

Answers; The part I quoted, some games show more than 3FPS and I never said anything about Loki. Again, it ain't the Frames Per Second but weak Game Sound effects:up:



Yet you are trying to downplay anything other then X-Fi cards. The Xonars are great for music and perfectly fine for games if you don't care about EAX5. If you care about EAX5 then they are ok for some games and not good for others because of spotty emulation.

You could have said that a long time ago. I agree the Xonar is great for Music and I DON'T think their perfectly fine for Games.


What is this supposed to prove? That some random third party that none of us have mentioned till now is developing a software OpenAL layer? Lol.

You misunderstand. The marketing element is that they won't allow EAX5 on lower hardware so they can position their high-end cards better with regards to price and features.

I didn't misunderstand anything. It supposed to prove what you touted as something that makes EAX3< a marketing gimmick, isn't finished and still needs work, as I said. I gave a list, where's yours?



I'm not the one making the positive claim in that regard. You have yet to demonstrate any case where cpu usage even approaches 50% during audio processing in games.


No, but I showed more than you have! Now Quote me saying 50%, your claim, not mine?



Incorrect. Rightmark uses EAX4. The Xonar is capable of EAX4 through emulation and both are fully capable of EAX2 processing (and that's as far as the ADI1988 goes, hence the 32 voices limit).


Ok. So?

BS, Xonar can NOT DO EAX 4, I tested it myself:rofl: It is a hack for suckers=P It can't even FAKE emulation worth a damned. It can't Emulate CMSS3D, It can't Emulate Sound Morph and the rest. At best, it can do trick the processor into doing one of the effects at a time. It messes up more than it helps and even causes its own version of snap crackle pop in some causes.



I never said the Forte wasn't better for gaming. What I am saying is that the Xonar isn't bad for gaming, and is better for music. If you think that someone with high-end cans and good ears couldn't tell the difference, you are wrong.

Dewd, I already said it wasn't bad but that X-Fi was better for games, do I need to quote myself here?



EAX doesn't add life to OpenAL. OpenAL has it's own specification for effects processing called EFX and it takes precedence over EAX as of the 1.1 OAL spec. There are quite a few games that use pure openal and in those games the xonar and x-fi are capable of exactly the same effects. The only OpenAL games that the xonar can't process all the effects for are games that don't use EFX such as recent ID engine titles.

Again, you're wrong. EAX works with OpenAL=P When Playing Battlefield 2, Game Voice is EAX 5 added to BF2, EAX's Elevation filters is EAX, Macro is EAX.


EFX Vs EAX

The EAX API was designed around the DirectSound3D property set mechanism, and thus the EAX interface does not take full advantage of OpenAL's extension system, and EAX extensions all exist solely on PC.

I see where some are confused here.


Although OpenAL provides a number of sophisticated 3D aural effects such as distance based roll-off, directivity and Doppler Shift, it lacks some very important environmental effects: reverberation, reflections, and sound occlusion or obstruction by intervening objects. Without these environmental effects, a listener can tell the direction of each sound source, but has a more difficult time pin-pointing how far away the sources are. Also, the listener has no idea of the environment where the sources are located.

This is where the concept of environmental audio comes in. Until now, EAX has been the standard way of adding environmental audio effects to OpenAL, but EFX provides a much more elegant solution.

Again, I look forward to this but we're NOT THERE YET! EAX has to do it until then, get it? No, the Asus Hack is hit and miss, more miss than hit!


Secondly, The CPU can process EAX just fine. What do you think SSE and AVX are for?

The CPU can only process EAX 2 or lower=P There is no software to do FULL EAX-HD 3+. Xonar is great for music and NOT the best option for games=P

[/QUOTE]Thanks. LOL.


How about some links to Head-Fi? ;)


Read your own quote. The Xonar is doing 128 voices also. And Rightmark is only EAX4.0 so neither card is doing 4 effects per voice.[/QUOTE]

You're welcome LOL, Head-Fi is a MUSIC via Headphone dominated site and has very little to do with Games. Then you need to read the whole link:up: Again, the hack can fool rightmark but side by side tests show Asus is engaging is Snake Oil selling. That said, Xonar Essence STX was built for Headphone users, of course Head-Fi folks love it LOL!

http://www.elitebastards.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=696&Itemid=27&limit=1&limitstart=1

I agree with most (about 90%) of what they're saying. Yes, look at the measurements again. Also no 5.1 Analog out and some software is limited.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132010
$199,
$224 at NCIX

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829156010
$129, was on sale last week for $106.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

the posts in this thread are epic....

[Donnie27]

the posts in this thread are epic....

You got that right!:D

[b0bd0le]

ok let me understand this right

creative is the best for gaming for these reasons:

#1. it's hardware, not software based
#2. it has eax5

so, for #1. people are making the argument that 3fps is or isn't alot, and that a new core i7 pretty much would negate any potential overhead a software based soundcard would have. Or it wouldn't negate the difference...

as for #2, eax5 is exclusive to creative there's not much to do about that. Thus, the question becomes "Do I really want EAX5?"

a few others things im confused on, the xfi will have better sound quality because it's hardware based as well? Is that claim being made? As opposed to the asus Xonar?

i need a new soundcard so i'm just trying to figure this thread out.

[cx-ray]

ok let me understand this right

creative is the best for gaming for these reasons:

#1. it's hardware, not software based
#2. it has eax5




#3. Add any card that supports X-Fi CMSS-3D (surround sound through stereo headphones). In my opinion essential for good gaming. Without it you're half blind.

[kadozer]

I'd go with Auzentech over the top of the line Xonar. Has #1 and #2 of your criteria. Saving up for one myself. All gaming purposes of course.

[Solus Corvus]

Answers; The part I quoted, some games show more than 3FPS and I never said anything about Loki. Again, it ain't the Frames Per Second but weak Game Sound effects:up:
You quoted two different points of mine, hence the confusion.


You could have said that a long time ago. I agree the Xonar is great for Music and I DON'T think their perfectly fine for Games.
I use an Xonar DX for music and games and I like it for both. It totally blows away any onboard or discreet (all Creative cards besides the stray aureal and hercules) I have used in the past. You may rag on asus for poor drivers, and I don't really disagree with you there. But at least they have the excuse of being new to the market. Creative has been in the market forever and still it seemed like every generation they had a new set of issues - mediocre SQ, PCI issues, crackling and popping, intermodulation distortion, crap drivers, etc etc etc. For all I know they have a perfect platform this time around, but EAX5 just doesn't matter enough to me to want to give them any more support.


I didn't misunderstand anything. It supposed to prove what you touted as something that makes EAX3< a marketing gimmick, isn't finished and still needs work, as I said. I gave a list, where's yours?
Um, that's a third party developer working on a universal openAL layer for any sound card. Who cares if they are finished or not?

The real OpenAL website is: http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/default.aspx
The spec has been finished for quite a long time, even the 1.1 spec that includes EFX.



No, but I showed more than you have! Now Quote me saying 50%, your claim, not mine?
I don't really know why we are arguing over this point. It was T^4 that made that claim about 128 voices with 4 effects stalling a system.


BS, Xonar can NOT DO EAX 4, I tested it myself:rofl: It is a hack for suckers=P It can't even FAKE emulation worth a damned. It can't Emulate CMSS3D, It can't Emulate Sound Morph and the rest. At best, it can do trick the processor into doing one of the effects at a time. It messes up more than it helps and even causes its own version of snap crackle pop in some causes.
Have you tested it with recent drivers? I came from a Creative EAX4 card to the Xonar and I have no problem with EAX effects in the games I play. It reproduces them just as well as my old card did, except with higher fidelity.

And why would it try to emulate CMSS3D when it has Dolby Headphone? Lol.


Dewd, I already said it wasn't bad but that X-Fi was better for games, do I need to quote myself here?
You didn't say it was bad but you are trying to downplay the differences in musical reproduction.


Again, you're wrong. EAX works with OpenAL=P When Playing Battlefield 2, Game Voice is EAX 5 added to BF2, EAX's Elevation filters is EAX, Macro is EAX.
EAX was used in OpenAL 1.0 to give it effects that the specification wasn't capable of. However, OpenAL 1.1 included EFX as part of the spec and hence deprecated EAX.


Again, I look forward to this but we're NOT THERE YET! EAX has to do it until then, get it? No, the Asus Hack is hit and miss, more miss than hit!
Yes, we are there. The OpenAL 1.1 spec was released quite a while ago and it includes EFX.


The CPU can only process EAX 2 or lower=P There is no software to do FULL EAX-HD 3+. Xonar is great for music and NOT the best option for games=P
The CPU can process anything a DSP can. It often does it slower then a DSP. But better architecture + more cores + faster speeds are making that point irrelevant.

I suggest this article as reading, all 3 pages. It's a little old but it gets makes many of the same points I am trying get across: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2279009,00.asp


You're welcome LOL, Head-Fi is a MUSIC via Headphone dominated site and has very little to do with Games. Then you need to read the whole link:up: Again, the hack can fool rightmark but side by side tests show Asus is engaging is Snake Oil selling. That said, Xonar Essence STX was built for Headphone users, of course Head-Fi folks love it LOL!
Side by side tests of my old creative card and my new asus card have shown me that both have similar EAX capabilities, once the driver is working properly with that particular game/scenario.


http://www.elitebastards.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=696&Itemid=27&limit=1&limitstart=1

I agree with most (about 90%) of what they're saying. Yes, look at the measurements again. Also no 5.1 Analog out and some software is limited.
The measurements at 48khz show the ESX as superior - the 92khz results for the forte don't seem to even match their own conclusions in their Forte review. I wonder why they didn't test at 192?

As for 5.1: the STX is a headphone card, if you want 5.1 analog you would want the ST. But if you are a high quality headphone user then just read the subjective headphone section of that very review:

"Of course, when all is said and done, the primary focus of the Xonar Essence STX is well and truly upon frequent users of headphones with the PC, and it has to be said that my positive impressions when using this card with a trusty pair of Sennheiser headphones where instantaneous.

During my review of the Auzentech X-Fi Forte, I noted how interference from the rest of the system (a huge irritation when using headphones) had been greatly reduced, but the Xonar Essence STX seems to have taken this one step further by removing such noise and interference entirely - All I ever heard in my ears was what I was listening to, free of buzzing or beeping caused by interference. In short, it was pure bliss.

Coupled with the excellent audio quality no matter what I threw at the card, and the options to enable Dolby Headphone support to attempt to recreate multi-channel audio via headphones (which works pretty well more often than not in movies and games, although it's best left disabled when listening to music in my opinion), the Xonar Essence STX offered easily the best overall experience I've had of using headphones on a PC - Even without the extra benefits, simply the absolute removal of interference is a complete and utter Godsend in my mind, and potentially worth the price of admission alone if you're a full-time headphone user on your system.

[Donnie27]

You quoted two different points of mine, hence the confusion.

I use an Xonar DX for music and games and I like it for both. It totally blows away any onboard or discreet (all Creative cards besides the stray aureal and hercules) I have used in the past. You may rag on asus for poor drivers, and I don't really disagree with you there.

This is the only thing your post should have consisted of. Asus' newest card is great for Headphone users but NOT the best for games. ANY one (reviewer) testing it without any BIAS will quickly find that out. Either way, the differences between the Forte that costs about 80 US dollars on average less, will be hard to justify for many. Forte sounds better than the Other Xonars in its price range for Music and for Games. I'm glad Auzentech put a common sense price on this excellent sound card.

My experience with sound cards goes back to 1993.

[Donnie27]

ok let me understand this right

creative is the best for gaming for these reasons:

#1. it's hardware, not software based
#2. it has eax5

so, for #1. people are making the argument that 3fps is or isn't alot, and that a new core i7 pretty much would negate any potential overhead a software based soundcard would have. Or it wouldn't negate the difference...

as for #2, eax5 is exclusive to creative there's not much to do about that. Thus, the question becomes "Do I really want EAX5?"

a few others things im confused on, the xfi will have better sound quality because it's hardware based as well? Is that claim being made? As opposed to the asus Xonar?

i need a new soundcard so i'm just trying to figure this thread out.

The Forte is an excellent all around card and doesn't place limits like no Analog 5.1 out. What's the use of all those fancy DAC's if you can use 5.1 analog out for Games? Some games show more than 10 Frames per sec and a larger hit to minimum FPS. I don't know why 3 fps keeps getting repeated after the links I gave.

Maybe Auzentech would be still using the CMedia chip if Asus hadn't bought exclusive rights. It is a good thing Creative does license X-Fi.

Hardware based means lower latency and no worry about if a Hack is partially working or not. It sounds better for games because the Game' maker used EAX when many of them created the Game. They didn't plan for some fracken Hack or even EFX which is much more elegant solution.

Here's what the other poster didn't quote.



Outside of headphone usage however I'd grant the advantage to the X-Fi Forte, in terms of both pricing in the UK as it currently stands, as well as the overall functionality on offer - Full, genuine EAX support and DTS/DTS Neo:PC support are both much-loved aspects of the audio equation to my mind, and the fact that they are missing from the Essence STX is a bit of a blow, as is the lack of multi-channel outputs via analogue audio jacks.

In short then, if you use headphones on your PC for the vast majority or all of the time you spend with your system, then the Xonar Essence STX is the discrete sound card you've been waiting for, making for an indescribably more comfortable and pleasant listening experience that is arguably worth every penny. For more causal headphone users or those who prefer to use speakers, the Essence STX really hasn't been built for you, so you'd be best off looking either elsewhere in the ASUS Xonar range or :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing a look at Auzentech's new offering.


I use speakers so of course I don't agree with the Head-Fi folks. Plus even if I used Cans, there's no real subsitute for CMSS3D for games IMHO. Even with the newest Asus Hack.

[ToTTenTranz]

the posts in this thread are epic....

It's got to that point where the posts are so big that no one cares to read them except for the posters themselves..

I stopped posting in this thread when I saw solus corvus separating and quoting each sentence I wrote, making an unnecessarily huge post..
I just though "man, this is where I remember I still have a life".


Sorry, Donnie27, I know you're right. Anyone with some knowledge about soundcards knows you're right.. I just don't see the point in this thread anymore. Solus Corvus definitely won't learn anything from you, he'll just keep shooting made-up stuff and incoherences so he can "keep up" with the conversation. It's worthless..

[p2501]

Not entirely off topic:

Donnie, if you had to choose between the Forte and Prelude, which would be best considering these uses, listed in descending significance:

1. music performance on HiFi (Technics amp + JBL speakers)
2. music performance on headphones (HD595)
3.
4. gaming performance

Additionally, I take it that those OPAMPS you have in your sig are better in some way, could you elaborate on that? I'm seeking to rid myself of my 1st gen Audigy.

[ToTTenTranz]

Not entirely off topic:

Donnie, if you had to choose between the Forte and Prelude, which would be best considering these uses, listed in descending significance:

1. music performance on HiFi (Technics amp + JBL speakers)
2. music performance on headphones (HD595)
3.
4. gaming performance

Additionally, I take it that those OPAMPS you have in your sig are better in some way, could you elaborate on that? I'm seeking to rid myself of my 1st gen Audigy.

What speakers/headphones will you use?

[p2501]

I listed the headphones already, speakers are JBL LX300 on a Technics Su-X120. It's nothing special I guess. Still, I'm taking the Audigy out for another system so I need a replacement. ^^;

[ToTTenTranz]

I listed the headphones already, speakers are JBL LX300 on a Technics Su-X120. It's nothing special I guess. Still, I'm taking the Audigy out for another system so I need a replacement. ^^;

The Forte is definitely more headphone-friendly, since it has a dedicated headphone amplifier. And it's cheaper too.
You cannot change the OPAMP, though.

I'd say the Forte.

[Chad Boga]

It's got to that point where the posts are so big that no one cares to read them except for the posters themselves..
Not true, I have read every post in this thread and have enjoyed seeing these details thrashed out.

You wouldn't be able to get all this information in any review on the net, so I have found it most helpful.

[ToTTenTranz]

Not true, I have read every post in this thread and have enjoyed seeing these details thrashed out.

You wouldn't be able to get all this information in any review on the net, so I have found it most helpful.

I stand corrected then.
It's good to know that someone actually reads these painfull but informational discussions.

Unfortunately, you're also right about the web reviews.. Most soundcard reviews you see out there consist of benching rightmark and making subjective tests with the soundcard connected to a Z5500 multimedia set..

Stay tuned for Digit-Life soundcard reviews, they do their homework.
But the best soundcard reviewers were by far the guys at 3d soundsurge. They were technically and didactically great. It's a shame they just ceased activity.

[Solus Corvus]

This is the only thing your post should have consisted of. Asus' newest card is great for Headphone users but NOT the best for games. ANY one testing it without any BIAS will quickly find that out. Either way, the differences between the Forte that costs about 80 US dollars on average more, will be hard to justify for many. Forte sounds better than the Other Xonars in its price range for Music and for Games. I'm glad Auzentech put a common sense price on the excellent sound card.
So that's it? You don't have any more substance so you choose to attack me personally as biased? Ever hear the phrase "attack the argument not the man"?

There were any number of civilized ways to resolve this. You could have asked me to do a back to back test in a specific game you had issues with. You could have asked if I could get recordings of both cards for comparison. But instead you you trot out the bias card when you are obviously not an impartial observer either.


My experience with sound cards goes back to 1993.
So what? My experience with sound cards goes back to 1990. Is that somehow supposed to make either of us special? Authorities even? I think not.

I was content to argue with you when it was constrained to the facts. But when it delves into character smearing I am going to bow out and let the facts already posted do the talking. There has been plenty of information posted in this thread for others to make up their mind who is right.


Lastly I want to say that I agree with ToTTenTranz with regards to most reviews. They use horrible testing equipment coupled with horrible testing methodology. Even the ones who do use adequate equipment still have issues. Example: Look at the 24/96 tests in the EB review of the STX. Then remember that DB is logarithmic - lol.

[Donnie27]

I listed the headphones already, speakers are JBL LX300 on a Technics Su-X120. It's nothing special I guess. Still, I'm taking the Audigy out for another system so I need a replacement. ^^;

Opamps are personal and many different circumstances can make different Opamps perfect for different reason. My system is very sensitive and overpoweringly bright/hot system need a whole different Opamp than something sound great for something like Sennheisser HD 600/650 that are kind of Dark.

I'm using a Harmon Kardon 247, Pre-amped out to an Old School Harmon Kardon 730 twin powered's Amp for my Mains. Dammmm they don't make em' like the use to:D


It's got to that point where the posts are so big that no one cares to read them except for the posters themselves..

I stopped posting in this thread when I saw solus corvus separating and quoting each sentence I wrote, making an unnecessarily huge post..
I just though "man, this is where I remember I still have a life".


Sorry, Donnie27, I know you're right. Anyone with some knowledge about soundcards knows you're right.. I just don't see the point in this thread anymore. Solus Corvus definitely won't learn anything from you, he'll just keep shooting made-up stuff and incoherences so he can "keep up" with the conversation. It's worthless..

Thanks! I got tired too.

Thanks Chad!

The Forte's Main Channel Opamp can be change, but not the others. You're right, it does ship with a dedicated HP amp like the Xonar STX.

http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_forte.php

I hope I didn't waste too many folks' time posting so much. I'm in no way affiliated with Creative or Auzentech, but very passionate about Game sounds and even some Computer recording, Mixing and etc... I love the time shift feature not even talked about. Speed up or slow down sounds without tone or pitch loss.

[Donnie27]

So that's it? You don't have any more substance so you choose to attack me personally as biased? Ever hear the phrase "attack the argument not the man"?

There were any number of civilized ways to resolve this. You could have asked me to do a back to back test in a specific game you had issues with. You could have asked if I could get recordings of both cards for comparison. But instead you you trot out the bias card when you are obviously not an impartial observer either.


So what? My experience with sound cards goes back to 1990. Is that somehow supposed to make either of us special? Authorities even? I think not.

I was content to argue with you when it was constrained to the facts. But when it delves into character smearing I am going to bow out and let the facts already posted do the talking. There has been plenty of information posted in this thread for others to make up their mind who is right.


Lastly I want to say that I agree with ToTTenTranz with regards to most reviews. They use horrible testing equipment coupled with horrible testing methodology. Even the ones who do use adequate equipment still have issues. Example: Look at the 24/96 tests in the EB review of the STX. Then remember that DB is logarithmic - lol.

I didn't attack you. I said any reviewer, without BIAS like EB and I quoted, would back what I said. I didn't attack you, I just disagreed with what you were posting. Sound cards before 1993 sucked, that's why. My computer experience goes back to 1983, should I have said I liked the Beeps from the case speaker? If you took that as an attack, I'll say right now, I'm sorry!
EB is saying the same thing I said.

[Solus Corvus]

I didn't attack you. I said any reviewer, without BIAS like EB and I quoted, would back what I said. I didn't attack you, I just disagreed with what you were posting. Sound cards before 1993 sucked, that's why. My computer experience goes back to 1983, should I have said I liked the Beeps from the case speaker? If you took that as an attack, I'll say right now, I'm sorry!
EB is saying the same thing I said.
No, you did not say any reviewer. You said anyone testing it and you were responding directly to my subjective experiences. You should note that I never devalued your subjective experiences - but simply that my subjective experience has been different.

You claim that the reviewers agree with your position but most of the reviews say that the xonars reproduce game sounds just fine in titles that have driver support. That should indicate that the quality of the emulation is dependent on the driver - and hence why I asked you what driver version your subjective impressions were made with.

But if all you are going to bring to the table is your subjective experience then I'm not going to bother discussing that. An opinion battle isn't going to be very productive. My history of computer usage easily matches yours, but that is irrelevant unless you want to discuss the facts as opposed to our opinions.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

No, you did not say any reviewer. You said anyone testing it and you were responding directly to my subjective experiences. You should note that I never devalued your subjective experiences - but simply that my subjective experience has been different.

You claim that the reviewers agree with your position but most of the reviews say that the xonars reproduce game sounds just fine in titles that have driver support. That should indicate that the quality of the emulation is dependent on the driver - and hence why I asked you what driver version your subjective impressions were made with.

But if all you are going to bring to the table is your subjective experience then I'm not going to bother discussing that. An opinion battle isn't going to be very productive. My history of computer usage easily matches yours, but that is irrelevant unless you want to discuss the facts as opposed to our opinions.

Alright so you say two things that make me wary:

1) so you must wait for driver updates to get the equivalent quality to the forte?

2) (didn't really say this but Iwould like to see what you have to say) If the qulaity on both cards is very good then how is it possible that as a card the Xonar is = to the Forte if the xonar is taking cpu cycles to do its processing?

[Solus Corvus]

Alright so you say two things that make me wary:

1) so you must wait for driver updates to get the equivalent quality to the forte?
Essentially, yes. You would need to wait for drivers to get EAX processing if they aren't already supported for your game. For pure OpenAL titles (increasingly the case) there is no waiting since the xonar has full support.

For games that aren't supported you'd still get high quality sound reproduction without effects and proper positional audio.


2) (didn't really say this but Iwould like to see what you have to say) If the qulaity on both cards is very good then how is it possible that as a card the Xonar is = to the Forte if the xonar is taking cpu cycles to do its processing?
Most games don't use full cpu power anyway, and that is only going to become more exaggerated as cpus increase in power faster then games utilize it. As to how the sound from a CPU can be equal to that from a DSP, it all comes down to the processing algorithms used. Modern CPUs have SSE instructions exactly for the purpose of processing multimedia data. With the proper algorithms the CPU can match a DSP in terms of sound quality.

[Bradan]

That was never the point and the same mistake you keep making over, and over again. As I already said, EAX adds to OpenAL. EAX adds Enviroments and etc.. to OpenAL.

I know, but personally I don't think the echoes do that much for immersion, I've had the card forever man.



Name them? In fact most games that depend on emersive sounds use OpenAL see the list from the link I gave you.

main beef:
Valve games (tf2 css hl2 portal :/)
crysis (supposed to be immersive)



Creative Audigy does 64 voices, X-Fi does a 128 and EAX 5 adds other features the Aduigy can't support. This done by the card in hardware, not a in software.

EAX 5 support :ROTF:
I have EAX 4 :down:



You implied that Dolby HP could do what CMSS3D does when it can't since any card using Dolby HP can't do EAX 3, 4, and 5.

It can use the latest openAL, and I think that is worth the loss of exagerated echoes.



That's rediculous. We know CMSS3D and Dolby HP works. You're just missing the point. Please see the first reply. Dolby HP can't re-mix, upmix, down-mix or any other kind of mix something it doesn't have. Now please don't take that out of context again.

I said downmix, and yes it does. for the last time. it downmixes. it downmixes. it downmixes (smash face)

CMSS's remixing or upmixing is a joke beyond all reason. If I want to decimate the sound quality, this is how I do it.




Same mistake again, see above?

No. I'm a nub.



They are very good. You'd easily notice a difference between the Audigy and X-Fi Forte:up: Ctreative and X-Fi Forte sounds better than the Audigy=P

106snr vs 109snr vs 117 snr (this is a log scale)

(Wiki: SNRs are usually expressed in terms of the logarithmic decibel scale. In decibels, the SNR is, by definition, 10 times the logarithm of the power ratio.)

So whatever difference you're hearing above me, a STX owner would hear^3 above that difference.

good arguement.



Like hell it doesn't! You have to at least have tested what you claim to know about. There's NOTHING like Hands on experience=P

I have :/
I think FEAR is my best EAX experience, but with openAL being so close, not rly that different.



If you do use alchemy like that, you're wasting your time.
http://connect.creativelabs.com/developer/Wiki/Introduction%20to%20OpenAL.aspx




Go here (http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/OpenAL%20Wiki/Games.aspx) for a complete listing?

That's almost every game... I think



Eve Ureal 1 had add on mod packs for EAX support after the fact.

Sweet




Sorry, here you are late and wrong. In fact, not my opinion, it is harder to find a First Person Shooter without both OpenAL and EAX.

I'm not so sure, I think CSS, TF2, and COD4/5 are pretty damn popular.



Same mistake again and it is not a laughing matter to folks coming here for info. OpenAL without full EAX support is like Cake without Icing or Frosting.

The STX is a cake that tastes better than the forte with icing IMO :D.

--------

I'm just expressing my opinion. Make some recordings of gameplay with and without EAX on. I swear on my grave it's not that impressive vs. OpenAL. My opinion only.

You've been attacking me every reply, so I don't care about your creative fanboism; enjoy the card. I'm ordering my piece of crap this weekend.

[Donnie27]

Essentially, yes. You would need to wait for drivers to get EAX processing if they aren't already supported for your game. For pure OpenAL titles (increasingly the case) there is no waiting since the xonar has full support.

EAX is supported in most games. Did you read the list? I didn't say Xonar couldn't do OpenAL. I said it couldn't do OpenAL plus EAX, you then said EAX isn't part of OpenAL 1.1. EFX as a fall back has to be programed into the Game. It doesn't just work out of the clear blue. Even it looks for Creative Cards.


For games that aren't supported you'd still get high quality sound reproduction without effects and proper positional audio.

You do NOT get Full EAX 3, 4, and 5 that is the essence of the argument here. You get nice sounding almost effects-less sound. EFX that is not supported by any GAME isn't there. Only a few DS3D emulated sounds. \\ There is no translation mode to turn EAX into EFX, I wish there were. This is why some folks got advice from Auzentech to turn EAX off. If you do it on a Creative card, switch to DDL or DTS and bang you hear EFX. Compare?



The Effects Extensions introduce a number of new objects to OpenAL:

· Auxiliary Effect Slot
An Auxiliary Effect Slot object represents an effect that can be fed with a mix of audio from selected Sources. The effect type and parameter settings are determined by the attached Effect Object. In the mixing console analogy, this is the rack-mount slot where an effects processor can be patched into the mixer�s auxiliary send.

· Effect Objects
Effects objects consist of the parameters required to define an Auxiliary Effect, i.e. effect type (reverb, chorus, etc�), plus values for each of the parameters that control the effect.

· Filter Objects
A filter object contains the information needed to set up a filter, i.e. the filter type (low-pass, high-pass, etc�), and values for each of the parameters that control the filter. Filter objects can be used to filter the direct path (dry signal) of a Source, or used to filter the send path (wet signal) to any of the Auxiliary Effect Slots.

· Different OpenAL devices may support different effect types. Creative Labs have defined an enhanced environmental reverb effect, which is only available on Creative soundcards. The Creative Effects SDK includes details about this effect type, and shows how the effect can be used with the Effects Extension framework.

* AL "Audio Library"
* Alc "Audio Library Context"
* Alut "Audio Library Utilities"
* XRam "Memory Extension"
* Efx "Effects Extension"



Most games don't use full cpu power anyway, and that is only going to become more exaggerated as cpus increase in power faster then games utilize it. As to how the sound from a CPU can be equal to that from a DSP, it all comes down to the processing algorithms used. Modern CPUs have SSE instructions exactly for the purpose of processing multimedia data. With the proper algorithms the CPU can match a DSP in terms of sound quality.

No game uses much CPU power. Sound data on CPU based cards are sent back an fourth while Hardware cards data is sent once in most cases. Not the same as you said earlier.

NO ONE needs to pay $200 for a card that depends on the CPU for Processing. I don't need to attack you when what you're saying is too easy to attack. Again, speakers aren't connected to a CPU. Oh, that's right, speakers aren't connected to the Xonar STX either uh?;) Great dacs and for 5.1 you have to use Digital.

EFX
http://www.opentk.com/book/export/html/145


I'm sorry to do this, but if you want to work with EFX there is no other way. All I can give here is a brief overview that might help you make the decision if EFX is what you need. You will have to download the OpenAL SDK to get a copy of "Effects Extension Guide.pdf" from Creative labs, for in-depth information about programming with DSPs.

My advice is ignoring EFX, unless your game project is in 1st Person 3D. Environmental effects might look nice as a "selling point" on paper, but do not add any gameplay value to a Strategy game, or a 2D platform game.

So NO, I don't believe Asus Cracked and or Hacked OpenAL +EFX or EAX 3<. Even if did, the games aren't programed for EFX. It's not enough effects to call it Fine!:up:

Look at EB's last quote while you're at it, I did read it BTW. Why do you think they picked the Forte for Gamers?

[Donnie27]

I know, but personally I don't think the echoes do that much for immersion, I've had the card forever man.

You've been attacking me every reply, so I don't care about your creative fanboism; enjoy the card. I'm ordering my piece of crap this weekend.

Wait a minute, I'm an Auzentech Creative Fanboy LOL!:rofl: Anyway, see Post #170?

[16floz470ml]

The motherboard that I have has onboard Dolby Home Theater. It works really great and sounds good too. It is rated at 108 dB. Now why would I want to add a sound card? Try playing Crysis at a high resolution with all settings at high while using software audio. The CPU hit does matter and I have a fairly powerful system.

These guys who's post need to be deleted probably have motherboards with great onboard sound and then went and bought these software soundcards for a premium price.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

I feel like a lot is being dismissed... at least for me having extra things run on the CPU is no good... I run WCG 24/7 even when I'm gaming and things taking away from my WU completion are not welcome

[safan80]

I feel like a lot is being dismissed... at least for me having extra things run on the CPU is no good... I run WCG 24/7 even when I'm gaming and things taking away from my WU completion are not welcome

I agree 100%. I don't like that the Asus card relies on the cpu to do EAX. the two biggest things that drove me away from the Xonar were it's not native pci-e design requiring a 4 pin molex connector (lazy hardware devs) and all the driver complaints on Asus' own forum (http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx?board_id=21&SLanguage=en-us) about lack of support for some games and various basic things like auto switching from head phones to speakers etc.I use both headphones and speakers.

Sure the Forte uses a Creative Labs chip but at least Auzentech is the one that made the card. The forte sounds a lot better than my old pci X-fi. With Auzentech I don't have to worry about hardware issues like that damn popping on Nforce4 or just general motherboard incompatibility. it reminds me Nvidia vs ATI... ATI makes great cards and their stock coolers rock the pants off of Nvidia's stuff but Nvidia wins when it comes to drivers... I wanted to put my foot through my 4870x2 because of the opengl uses that gave me flashbacks to 9800pro openGL issues. In this case Asus == ATI in the driver dept and CL == CL but still > ATI driver dept they've opened up a little bit to third party devs which shows that hitting them with 2x4s after the daniel_K thing worked to some degree.

So the question is: Do you want something that works correctly or do you want hope the dev team can fix the problem and live with your "broken" hardware?

[Soulburner]

it reminds me Nvidia vs ATI...ATI makes great cards and their stock coolers rock the pants off of Nvidia's stuff
Hmm I don't agree with this...:shrug:

[Donnie27]

I agree 100%. I don't like that the Asus card relies on the cpu to do EAX. the two biggest things that drove me away from the Xonar were it's not native pci-e design requiring a 4 pin molex connector (lazy hardware devs) and all the driver complaints on Asus' own forum (http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx?board_id=21&SLanguage=en-us) about lack of support for some games and various basic things like auto switching from head phones to speakers etc.I use both headphones and speakers.

Sure the Forte uses a Creative Labs chip but at least Auzentech is the one that made the card. The forte sounds a lot better than my old pci X-fi. With Auzentech I don't have to worry about hardware issues like that damn popping on Nforce4 or just general motherboard incompatibility. it reminds me Nvidia vs ATI... ATI makes great cards and their stock coolers rock the pants off of Nvidia's stuff but Nvidia wins when it comes to drivers... I wanted to put my foot through my 4870x2 because of the opengl uses that gave me flashbacks to 9800pro openGL issues. In this case Asus == ATI in the driver dept and CL == CL but still > ATI driver dept they've opened up a little bit to third party devs which shows that hitting them with 2x4s after the daniel_K thing worked to some degree.

So the question is: Do you want something that works correctly or do you want hope the dev team can fix the problem and live with your "broken" hardware?

Asus and Creative have had their share failures and successes. There's enough to go around. We should just try to get the best info out there. I don't know of anyone complaining about the Forte except for Mic problems that seems to be getting worse for many folks.

I don't disagree with the Guy about Cans and the Xonar STX. As far as Bugs go, anyone expecting perfection needs to back away from their computer slowly and find something else to entertain themselves with.:D

[Solus Corvus]

EAX is supported in most games. Did you read the list?
Supported in most old games. New games are mostly going to be using pure OpenAL. OpenAL + EAX is a kludge that was only necessary because OpenAL 1.0 didn't have proper effects processing.


I didn't say Xonar couldn't do OpenAL. I said it couldn't do OpenAL plus EAX, you then said EAX isn't part of OpenAL 1.1. EFX as a fall back has to be programed in the Game. It doesn't just work out of the clear blue. Even it looks for Creative Cards.
EFX as a fall back for EAX? Um, no. It's either EAX or EFX. If they are going to be going with EFX then there is no reason to include EAX support.

http://opensource.creative.com/pipermail/openal/2007-January/010122.html


You do NOT get Full EAX 3, 4, and 5 that is the essence of the argument here. You get nice sounding almost effects-less sound.
Doesn't sound very effects-less to me.


EFX that is not supported by any GAME is there. Only a few DS3D emulated sounds.
Lol, if you say so.


NO ONE needs to pay $200 for a card that depends on the CPU for Processing. I don't need to attack you when what you're saying is too easy to attack. Again, speakers aren't connected to a CPU. Oh, that's right, speakers aren't connected to the Xonar STX either uh?;) Great dacs and for 5.1 you have to use Digital.
The STX is for headphones the ST is for 5.1 analog. Get it?


EFX
http://www.opentk.com/book/export/html/145
He is saying that you shouldn't bother with EFX unless you are going for 1st person 3D because it doesn't add much to the game (in his opinion). What he is NOT saying is anything about EFX versus EAX.


So NO, I don't believe Asus Cracked and or Hacked OpenAL +EFX or EAX 3<. Even if did, the games aren't programed for it. It's not enough effects to call it Fine!:up:
They don't have to hack OpenAL +EFX, it's an open standard.


Look at EB's last quote while you're at it, I did read it BTW. Why do you think they picked the Forte for Gamers?
They pick the Forte for non-headphone use. Which is kind of a DUH statement because the STX is all about headphones. Where the reviews disagree with you is that the xonars are BAD for games, as you claim. They lament the lack of support in some games - but for games that are supported they don't seem to have any qualms:
http://www.elitebastards.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=696&Itemid=27&limit=1&limitstart=5

As we saw previously with Auzentech's latest parts, enabling hardware 3D audio via OpenAL in Unreal Tournament 3 actually boosts performance, and this also proves to be the case with the Xonar Essence STX, which manages to emulate the use of EAX effects in this title pretty well. It also succeeds in keeping pace with an original Creative Labs X-Fi Fatal1ty part too, meaning that it isn't slacking in performance terms with this game either.
http://techreport.com/articles.x/14500/6

Asus claims that the Xonar's DirectSound 3D GX's EAX 5.0 emulation produces output comparable to true EAX implementations, so we just had to take it for a spin. We even contacted Creative to see if they could suggest some games that might highlight DS3D GX's limitations, but the company's few suggestions were dominated by games based on the older Doom 3 engine. EAX support just isn't what it used to be, I guess.

Creative did suggest that we try Bioshock, and since we had a few initial DS3D GX problems with the game, it made the cut. We also decided to throw a little Battlefield 2 into the mix. The game has a special X-Fi audio mode, and we were curious to see how that would pan out with the Xonar.

I spent a couple of hours playing each game on the X-Fi XtremeMusic and Xonar DX with configured for 5.1-channel analog output with in-game EAX effects enabled. Surprisingly, Battlefield 2 let me invoke the X-Fi audio mode with the Xonar DX.

After an afternoon of gaming, I came away quite impressed with DirectSound 3D GX. Creative may be correct in saying that it doesn't deliver a genuine EAX 5.0 experience, and I wouldn't be surprised if its emulation isn't an exact 1:1 replica of EAX effects. But that didn't diminish my gaming experience in the least. Bioshock is packed with aural ambiance, and the underwater city of Rapture was every bit as creepy with the Xonar as it was with the X-Fi. I couldn't detect any difference between the cards in Battlefield 2, either, even in intense firefights loaded with explosions, gunfire, and frantic cries for a medic.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2339338,00.asp


Games, including the atmospheric Dead Space, Mirror's Edge and Far Cry 2 worked perfectly with the GX engine enabled, which presents EAX through a software layer for realistic, positional audio in games that use it. Also supported is OpenAL for Vista and friendly games, as well as the usual band of APIs including DirectSound and DS3D.
http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-xonar-essence-stx-review/11

Call of Duty 2

The card was set for GX gaming mode and the game was tested with both headphone set and the monitors. This game sounded very good with the Essence STX using both the Miles Positional Audio Engine and EAX 2.0 the games audio control panel would not lock into EAX 3.0 mode.

This game is one of my favorite and I have modified the audio tracks and in game sounds with updated version of effects that are arguably better then the stock set. The Essence STX sounded spectacular using both Dolby Headphone mode and with stereo monitors. All the weapon sounds have a realistic snap and crack to them and the bullets whizzing by my head were very cool. Explosions and loud action sequences remained articulate with no instances of bottoming out or smearing. The Essence STX made the game very enjoyable and realistic with the busy in game sequences and yells and cues coming from all directions.

Call of Duty 4

Call of Duty 4 always seems to find its way into my testing regimen as this game has a great sound engine and very realistic sounds. The Essence STX offered spectacular sound when gaming on the test headphones with Dolby Headphone or using stereo sound over our reference monitors. Firearms had a realistic quality and a powerful sound not just a flat snap or pop. Bullets whizzed by the side of the head adding to the in game action. Large explosions and heavy actions sequences played out without any smearing allowing each sound to be located within the image.

Assassins Creed

Assassin’s creed has found its way into my test regimen also. The large open environments, Narrow Street and alleyway give quite a varying sonic image. The guards yelling at thieves and other “criminals” could easily help locate where this action was taking place. The Xonar Essence STX sounded excellent in this game and there were no noted anomalies in the sound.

I tested a few other games quickly during my testing regimens, games such as Bioshock, Thief: Dark shadows, infernal and others to tests for in game anomalies for EAX effects.

There were some noted anomalies in some of the quicker game tests on larger environments. Certain sounds seemed out of place or missing and certain environments seemed to be a bit too reflective.

Other then this all gaming tests were really exceptional and although this card is not aimed at gaming it can holds its own offering up GX 2.5 gaming effects and just excellent overall sound quality.


basic things like auto switching from head phones to speakers etc.I use both headphones and speakers.
I was wrong when I told you that. It does auto switch.

As for crap drivers, asus is new to the sound card market. Hopefully they will improve with time. What's Creative's excuse for crap drivers?

[safan80]

Hmm I don't agree with this...:shrug:

I find that ATI's stock cooler has more potential than nvidia's stock cooler when it comes to all around cooling. Sure ATI gears their cooler for low noise so their cards run hot, but they cool very well when you bump the speed up. The ATI stocker at 100% is better than Nvidia's coolers at 100%.


Asus and Creative have had their share failures and successes. There's enough to go around. We should just try to get the best info out there. I don't know of anyone complaining about the Forte except for Mic problems that seems to be getting worse for many folks.

Mic problems? I know the forte does not have mic boost but I've had no trouble with the mic and I have extensions connected to the headphone and mic jacks Since CL won't release the X-Fi Titanium I/O Drive Upgrade Kit (http://www.soundblaster.com/products/product.asp?category=1&subcategory=16&product=18288), so they can get more people to buy the Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion Series card with the io drive. I use my mic quite bit when playing L4d or ETQW under xp x64 and vista x64.





I was wrong when I told you that. It does auto switch.

As for crap drivers, asus is new to the sound card market. Hopefully they will improve with time. What's Creative's excuse for crap drivers?

maybe it auto switches now but when the forte came out I read several posts on their (Asus') forum about it. you couldn't test the auto switch because you only had headphones at the time I asked you to test it. the CL drivers work fine, I just don't like hardware built by them. If you don't like CL's drivers there's at least 2 third party driver packs you can try... CL and ATI both did the smart thing and released specs. I don't have to worry about it so much with Nvidia because they can release good drivers.. they just need to work on their vista drivers a little bit more.

[Soulburner]

I find that ATI's stock cooler has more potential than nvidia's stock cooler when it comes to all around cooling. Sure ATI gears their cooler for low noise so their cards run hot, but they cool very well when you bump the speed up. The ATI stocker at 100% is better than Nvidia's coolers at 100%.
I suppose but that hasn't been my experience. I haven't used the newer cards though. I just know I never let my fan run that high because it makes an absolute racket.

[hollo]

the two biggest things that drove me away from the Xonar were it's not native pci-e design requiring a 4 pin molex connector (lazy hardware devs) isn't that a way of reducing EMI in the card's power supply?

[Lu(ky]

I took out my Prelude and through this card in to see if any changes.. So far very nice sounding card just like the Prelude half the size... So far in gaming just amazing sound no problems or hangs..

[Donnie27]

Supported in most old games. New games are mostly going to be using pure OpenAL. OpenAL + EAX is a kludge that was only necessary because OpenAL 1.0 didn't have proper effects processing.
..............As for crap drivers, asus is new to the sound card market. Hopefully they will improve with time. What's Creative's excuse for crap drivers?

Sure, I hope Asus fixes their crappy drivers and comes up with a Native PCI-E chip while they're at it. Big Da-UH on your part of you don't know about Daniel-K or YouP_Pax. Kludge, DS3D GX is a kludge.

You can say anything you want and how it sounds to you, Asus game sounds don't add the effects that Auzentech's Forte or the Prelude. They said it sounded good enough they didn't say it performed all of the effects (opinion as well). Don't even try to BS folks because Forte sound great with or without EAX, For Cans and or speakers well worth $129 as RightMark and etc.. shows against $199 cards.

Without ANY SUPPORT, there isn't a 70 to 80 dollar difference in the sound of the STX and the Forte. That's for Games, Movies and or Music. Even Duh on your part since some of your links talks about that. I don't hate any company enough to pay that much more for an opposing product with these kinds of slight differences. Again, the thread is about Forte, not a Xtreme Music or something. When it comes right down to it, that has to be the reason behind all of your rants as your comments about crap drivers show. If these cards had similar prices, you might have a tiny point, but that's NOT the case. One thing all of the reviews show is that Asus has to put up a $200 card to compete with a $130 card with more features.

[Solus Corvus]

If you think those EB rightmark graphs are correct at 24/96 then you need to take a second look. The DB scale is logarithmic - with that in mind anyone should be able to see that there is something seriously wrong with those graphs. Nor do they concur with their own conclusions from the Forte review.

About the price difference, yeah, the Forte is cheaper. The DX is even cheaper. I would like to see those paired head to head but that's not likely with the poor state of audio reviews in the computer enthusiast community these days.

As for not hating a company enough to go with a more expensive competing product over slight differences - I agree with you there, that's why I went with the DX, LOL.

As for the rest, like I said I'm not going to argue with your opinion.

[Donnie27]

If you think those EB rightmark graphs are correct at 24/96 then you need to take a second look. The DB scale is logarithmic - with that in mind anyone should be able to see that there is something seriously wrong with those graphs. Nor do they concur with their own conclusions from the Forte review.

About the price difference, yeah, the Forte is cheaper. The DX is even cheaper. I would like to see those paired head to head but that's not likely with the poor state of audio reviews in the computer enthusiast community these days.

As for not hating a company enough to go with a more expensive competing product over slight differences - I agree with you there, that's why I went with the DX, LOL.

As for the rest, like I said I'm not going to argue with your opinion.

Do you think Extremetech's Rightmark is on? Their's are lower for the Forte than anyone else's. Plus we know Loop back measurements have more to do with the ADC's and than the DAC's.

I wished the STX sold for $129, I'd give it a shot!

[safan80]

I suppose but that hasn't been my experience. I haven't used the newer cards though. I just know I never let my fan run that high because it makes an absolute racket.

ATI's coolers have bigger fans and use copper where as Nvidia uses aluminum and smaller fans. Sure fans can get loud but I have 14 fans through my whole system and that's without my current video cards on water. So for me the video card(s) running at 100% is nothing. the 4870x2 is a great card it just lacks a good driver support team. I would of liked to see both of my 4870x2 in action in games but when they first came out quad Xfire couldn't scale for crap in real games.


ultimately this here (http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x24/safan80/ETQWmessedATi812s/) drove me back to nvidia. when the card for came out the 8.8 and 8.9s drivers worked great in opengl granted I couldn't use AA which I was willing to live with, but I can't use those drivers on I7. ATI still needs to invest heavily into their driver team before I ever try them again. they burned me with the 9800 pro and opengl and now they've done it again with the 4870x2 and opengl.

edit: I should that I sent the ATI driver team many reports and they've never fixed it. those picture only give a glimpse of the problems with ATI drivers, opengl, and ETQW/quake4/prey.

[Solus Corvus]

Do you think Extremetech's Rightmark is on? Their's are lower for the Forte than anyone else's. Plus we know Loop back measurements have more to do with the ADC's and than the DAC's.
I think extremetech's rightmark tests are even worse then EB's. Look at the graphs in ET's test and not just the numbers. All the graphs show poor performance before ~100-200Hz, which we know is NOT the case for the Forte. Most of the graphs show an odd pattern around 1-2K. The dynamic range graph is awful. And to top it off they don't even tell us what bitrate/sample rate the tests were done at. I think the Forte is much better then their measurements are showing.

The only tests between the two that seem about right (ie. distance between the worst, onboard, and best, and the shape of the graphs) are the EB 16/48 tests. But I don't really trust the EB testing methodology. If you look at the EB Forte review their own words under the 24/96 tests don't even match what the graphs are showing. I don't know if the errors in these tests are because of loopback or some kind of bug in rightmark - but I am sure they aren't reflecting reality.

Maybe Guru3d could be convinced to do a Forte review. Their STX review seems ok. But reviewers need to start doing playback tests, not just loopback, before we will have any really decent reviews of these cards. The Techreport reviews are nice and detailed but they haven't done any soundcards newer then the DX.

[Bradan]

OK EVERYONE


If you have Hi-Fi headphones or 2.1 system, buy the Xonar STX.

If you have a surround setup and/or mid-fi headphones, buy the forte.

The forte costs 190$CAD here, and the STX is 225$CAD, so it's a no brainer for me.

[Donnie27]

I think extremetech's rightmark tests are even worse then EB's. Look at the graphs in ET's test and not just the numbers. All the graphs show poor performance before ~100-200Hz, which we know is NOT the case for the Forte. Most of the graphs show an odd pattern around 1-2K. The dynamic range graph is awful. And to top it off they don't even tell us what bitrate/sample rate the tests were done at. I think the Forte is much better then their measurements are showing.

The only tests between the two that seem about right (ie. distance between the worst, onboard, and best, and the shape of the graphs) are the EB 16/48 tests. But I don't really trust the EB testing methodology. If you look at the EB Forte review their own words under the 24/96 tests don't even match what the graphs are showing. I don't know if the errors in these tests are because of loopback or some kind of bug in rightmark - but I am sure they aren't reflecting reality.

Maybe Guru3d could be convinced to do a Forte review. Their STX review seems ok. But reviewers need to start doing playback tests, not just loopback, before we will have any really decent reviews of these cards. The Techreport reviews are nice and detailed but they haven't done any soundcards newer then the DX.

WOW, I'm in 95% agreement here, not much else to say! Loop back is bad because it means the lowest performance ADC is only the real thing tested as you know. The 5%? Not crazy about Guru3D at all sound card reviews. They're well known Creative Labs bashers. At least two reviews were laughed at here. I do trust their video card reviews.

[Donnie27]

OK EVERYONE


If you have Hi-Fi headphones or 2.1 system, buy the Xonar STX.

If you have a surround setup and/or mid-fi headphones, buy the forte.

The forte costs 190$CAD here, and the STX is 225$CAD, so it's a no brainer for me.

Glad I don't live in Canada

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829156010

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102024

[Jodiuh]

OK EVERYONE


If you have Hi-Fi headphones or 2.1 system, buy the Xonar STX.

If you have a surround setup and/or mid-fi headphones, buy the forte.

The forte costs 190$CAD here, and the STX is 225$CAD, so it's a no brainer for me.
I wish it were that simple. I like CMSS3D, dislike molex/berg connectors, and own a pair of HD580's w/ a pretty nice amp. What would you have me do? I'll tell you what I'd have me do. Order the Forte and NEVER listen/browse/discuss the STX. :yepp:

[iddqd]

The used the CMedia Chip until Asus bought Full Exclusive rights to it. These cards are very good HTPC cards. Look, I don't think it or the Asus cards suck for Games, I just think the X-Fi is much better.

okay can someone clarify some things?

-which C-Media chip is used by Asus Xonar DX
-which C-Media chip is used by HT|Omega Striker
(and if Asus owns exclusive rights to C-Media hardware, what is HT|Omega using now instead? They're still selling sound cards.)

C-Media makes many chips. They actually make a processor too (or so they claim on their website).

E:

looks like Xonar DX uses CMI8770, rebadged to "Asus AV100"
same with the older Auzentech stuff and cheaper HT|Omega cards.

I'm not sure what cards (if any?) use CMI8787 (the DSP)

[Bradan]

I wish it were that simple. I like CMSS3D

CMSS3D is good for downmixing 7.1/5.1 in a game that doesn't suppourt OpenAL. It sucks so bad for upmixing music, it ends up sounding muddy and tonally unbalanced. The STX has this downmixing ability via: Dolby HP.



I dislike molex/berg connectors



isn't that a way of reducing EMI in the card's power supply?

YES! Yes it is!:D



-and own a pair of HD580's w/ a pretty nice amp. What would you have me do? I'll tell you what I'd have me do. Order the Forte and NEVER listen/browse/discuss the STX.

I'd probably tell you to buy a card that doesn't have an integreated headphone amp, considering you have one of better quality in your own opinion. You'd save money that way. Just buy a normal xonar or x-fi.


Please stop posing misinformation, we get tons of views from forum members and others.

[Donnie27]

okay can someone clarify some things?

-which C-Media chip is used by Asus Xonar DX
-which C-Media chip is used by HT|Omega Striker
(and if Asus owns exclusive rights to C-Media hardware, what is HT|Omega using now instead? They're still selling sound cards.)

C-Media makes many chips. They actually make a processor too (or so they claim on their website).

E:

looks like Xonar DX uses CMI8770, rebadged to "Asus AV100"
same with the older Auzentech stuff and cheaper HT|Omega cards.

I'm not sure what cards (if any?) use CMI8787 (the DSP)

Asus bought all rights or exclusive rights to the CMedia Chip and that was the main reason Auzentech had to go to Creative. Creative had courted them and at least two others or so I was told.

http://www.pcper.com/comments.php?nid=5970

The truth finally came out in June of this year, but very few people seemed to notice it. Stephane Bae, President of Auzentech, wrote a little open letter concerning this situation, a full year after Auzentech stopped producing the X-Meridian. The long and short of it is that Asus had negotiated with C-Media for exclusive rights to the CMI-8788 chip after a certain date. This meant that Auzentech would have to purchase a significant number of chips within a week of the original introduction of the X-Meridian to keep that part running for the next few years of its potential lifespan. Considering that Auzentech is still selling the older X-Plosion two plus years after its introduction, we can imagine that Auzentech would have had to throw down a significant amount of money to get the potential supply of product needed for the next several years. At that point, Auzentech had to make the decision to bet the company on that move, or to pursue another route. The other route involved adopting the X-Fi processor from Creative.

[Donnie27]

Check this out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5G3HUiscW4&feature=related

[Bradan]

Check this out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5G3HUiscW4&feature=related

I wish stereo imaging would be that good in games.

The top to bottom soundstage is pretty insane in that video.

Edit:
Oh's Noes! (http://www.xtremesystems.org/Forums/showthread.php?t=220391)

[Donnie27]

I wish stereo imaging would be that good in games.

The top to bottom soundstage is pretty insane in that video.

First the shocker. These effects can be heard on my Cheap Sansun Cans bought in Germany for about $7 and none of the effects are lost on my Speakers in Stereo mode:up:

Yes, Holophonics at work. Please note, these elevation cues can be heard in Battle Field 2 and even in none EAX games like Halflife 2 with the X-Fi. I've heard helicopters fly overhead. I've gotten the sensation of going under a bridge in Driver.

Aureal 3D via the SQ2500 converted me to Surround sound. IMHO, it is easier to do with Speakers than with Headphones. America's Army converted me into a Sound-Effects-Aholic. DAC's that are better at imaging or those who present a better sound stage are more important than DACs that just sound better. I don't blame Creative for my affliction, I blame Aureal, Sensura, EAR, EMU and all the companies Creative bought up before there was an even a SBLive:cool: If it weren't for the SQ-2500, I'd not care and would be using mobo sound.

[Solus Corvus]

Check this out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5G3HUiscW4&feature=related
I get great positional sense in this with my Xonar DX + Etymotic ER4P.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

ATI's coolers have bigger fans and use copper where as Nvidia uses aluminum and smaller fans. Sure fans can get loud but I have 14 fans through my whole system and that's without my current video cards on water. So for me the video card(s) running at 100% is nothing. the 4870x2 is a great card it just lacks a good driver support team. I would of liked to see both of my 4870x2 in action in games but when they first came out quad Xfire couldn't scale for crap in real games.


ultimately this here (http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x24/safan80/ETQWmessedATi812s/) drove me back to nvidia. when the card for came out the 8.8 and 8.9s drivers worked great in opengl granted I couldn't use AA which I was willing to live with, but I can't use those drivers on I7. ATI still needs to invest heavily into their driver team before I ever try them again. they burned me with the 9800 pro and opengl and now they've done it again with the 4870x2 and opengl.

edit: I should that I sent the ATI driver team many reports and they've never fixed it. those picture only give a glimpse of the problems with ATI drivers, opengl, and ETQW/quake4/prey.

they fixed ETQW in 9.3....

[Donnie27]

I get great positional sense in this with my Xonar DX + Etymotic ER4P.

Yup, I'm not surprised. These are the Canned sounds I was talking about. Now try to get them (these effects) done in real time or interactively?:up: CMSS3D can do those Elevation cues pretty nicely

I'd love to see what Asus could do with an X-Fi chip but something better than their Supreme FX X-Fi riser card.

[Jodiuh]

Yeah, I'm 1 week away from pitching my Supreme FX II. I sure hope the Forte's mic input works good in games! Provantage has it shipped $3 bucks cheaper, but I'll probably go newegg so it'll def get here on Wed.

[Solus Corvus]

Yup, I'm not surprised. These are the Canned sounds I was talking about. Now try to get them (these effects) done in real time or interactively?:up: CMSS3D can do those Elevation cues pretty nicely
Yes, I get the same kind of positional sound in games with dolby headphone. Above and beyond any other type of effects, being able to locate your friends and foes by ear is very important in fps - I wouldn't tolerate the xonar if it couldn't do that.

[safan80]

they fixed ETQW in 9.3....

it's not completely fixed... I managed to get Solus Corvus to play a few games with me yesterday and he still gets black textures at random, the gold mining laser(for some reason the mining laser in Salvage has never had this problem), and weird snowflakes. still 6 months sinces the 8.9s were release which worked flawlessly minus proper AA support. on my X48 based system but do not work with the i7 rigs :down: I bought 2 285s and they smoke a single 4870x2 and Quad Xfire never worked in ETQW. One thing ATI has never fixed is the AA and smooth foliage bug.

[Andrew LB]

Interesting thread guys. I've been considering swapping out my X-Fi platinum for a while now but am still uncertain which card I plan on buying. I'm using a pair of Sennheiser HD580's, Cardas cable, and an Antique Sound Labs MG-Head OTL tube amplifier (with 1950's sylvania black plate/gold pin tubes).

I do all of my gaming with headphones and only on rare occasions do I hook up my PC to run through my Harman Kardon AVR-354 receiver with a full JBL Studio L Series 5 channel setup along with a Mirage OMNI S10 subwoofer. That setup is mainly used for use with my home theater.

Since Audio quality out of a PC tends to always get put in check by the line noise they caused by the internal components, do you guys think I should just stick with my current card?

[Xoulz]

Interesting thread guys. I've been considering swapping out my X-Fi platinum for a while now but am still uncertain which card I plan on buying. I'm using a pair of Sennheiser HD580's, Cardas cable, and an Antique Sound Labs MG-Head OTL tube amplifier (with 1950's sylvania black plate/gold pin tubes).

I do all of my gaming with headphones and only on rare occasions do I hook up my PC to run through my Harman Kardon AVR-354 receiver with a full JBL Studio L Series 5 channel setup along with a Mirage OMNI S10 subwoofer. That setup is mainly used for use with my home theater.

Since Audio quality out of a PC tends to always get put in check by the line noise they caused by the internal components, do you guys think I should just stick with my current card?


Yes!

This thread is about the Auzentech. Which imo isn't as good as the Creative Labs. The problem with Creative is that their drivers suck, but Vista has been out a while now and issues are gone.

[Donnie27]

Yes, I get the same kind of positional sound in games with dolby headphone. Above and beyond any other type of effects, being able to locate your friends and foes by ear is very important in fps - I wouldn't tolerate the xonar if it couldn't do that.

I've not heard the STX but I have heard the Xonar DX. That was this past Nov. I just didn't get those same elevation cues. 4 other friends and I easily heard the difference. The Xonar did a good job, it just didn't do the best job. The last time I heard one on someone else's system was last month, still not impressed. But I wasn't disappointed either:up:

Example;
Even that muddy sound some folks talk about is good but less experience folks don't know better. That's without understanding what the heck Occlusion and Obstruction was or is. On the Xonar sounds of enemies coming from around the corner or even under water were crystal clear when they should have been O&O-ed. What I missed with Xonar was it would only do a few of the effects at a time and that just didn't cut it for me or the others.

Again, I wish there were benchmarks that measured Game Sound effects. I wish I could hear the new drivers Asus has shipped.

So, here is one of those head-fi opinions.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/dolby-headphone-vs-cmss-3d-gaming-other-questions-394289/#post5188995


CMSS3D OTOH had superior 3D positioning for a stationary sound source, especially for distance (direction was pretty equal). However, it was a little inconsistent in tracking sound sources that panned across my position from side-to-side, either from the target moving or from me spinning in place. A target that moved to a position directly in front or in back of you didn't track 100% smoothly. CMSS3D seemed to have difficultly in making minor adjustments for targets moving in an arc of maybe 10 degrees directly in front or in back of you, and in those cases their exact position was slightly blurred. The overall sound was slightly sharper and more detailed than DolbyHP though.

If I was forced to use one or the other I'd probably choose CMSS3D most of the time all else being equal, at least for FPS games where positioing is key. For games that don't rely on sound positioning I might prefer DolbyHP. Keep in mind that these are minor differences, and either one was an improvement overall compared to plain stereo in most cases.

I'd put that difference at slight with little action and about 25 to 30% during heavy action.

That's vs the Prelude. As one person who tried the Forte vs the Prelude said, Forte is just better. It seems PCI-E is what Prelude needed. Shocked, the guy even said Creative's bloatware even works better with the Forte. What shocked? It installed more bloatware than Prelude, it all worked, ran faster and seemed to have almost not affect on the computer.

He also said a trusted source told him the STX is the quietest Consumer Computer sound card bar none! Cranked all the way up and Zero electronic background noise at all. They're still having MIC problems last I heard Andrew! I have a Platinum as well. I wouldn't upgrade to Prelude since I have both (if given a do-over). I'd buy Prelude in a new build either or situation. I'd upgrade to a Forte from a Platinum and if the STX were $129 I'd give it a shot.

[cx-ray]

I don't hear any electronic sounds with the X-Fi Titanium or Xtreme Gamer - F4t4l1ty Pro either. I tried them on 3 motherboards (XBX975X, Rampage Formula, and Rampage II Extreme (all running Vista)). Nothing whatsoever when scrolling a web page with headset at 100% or Z-5500 set to boost volume 11. The latter of course will produce some regular background hiss due to the extreme amplification. Maybe I just got good grounding or my sound output devices are too crappy to reproduce electronic noise :shrug:

[Donnie27]

I don't hear any electronic sounds with the X-Fi Titanium or Xtreme Gamer - F4t4l1ty Pro either. I tried them on 3 motherboards (XBX975X, Rampage Formula, and Rampage II Extreme (all running Vista)). Nothing whatsoever when scrolling a web page with headset at 100% or Z-5500 set to boost volume 11. The latter of course will produce some regular background hiss due to the extreme amplification. Maybe I just got good grounding or my sound output devices are too crappy to reproduce electronic noise :shrug:

Background noise doesn't affect all users. Sorry, I don't have numbers on how many this affects. I have to use a ground loop isolator on my sub:rolleyes: That has nothing to do with my computer.

[16floz470ml]

The problem with background noise in my experience is with Nvidia motherboards. I never could get my 790i Ultra to work right with my Prelude. I have tried the Prelude and Forte in my Intel board and have had zero problems.

[Donnie27]

The problem with background noise in my experience is with Nvidia motherboards. I never could get my 790i Ultra to work right with my Prelude. I have tried the Prelude and Forte in my Intel board and have had zero problems.

I have an Intel board and I get some noise. On my other Intel boards it was quiet as a mouse. Yes,the MIC's boost is disabled, I have all MICs and inputs muted in both places.

[Zaskar]

I just hope the come out with a Real PCI-E sound card soon, like an upgrade to their main high quality line with full DTS/DDL capabilities instead of this low profile card targeted at home theater machines.

[Donnie27]

I just hope the come out with a Real PCI-E sound card soon, like an upgrade to their main high quality line with full DTS/DDL capabilities instead of this low profile card targeted at home theater machines.

The Forte is a full featured card. If I were building from the ground up, it would be my first choice. I can't justify moving from a Prelude to a Forte however.

[Zaskar]

The Forte is a full featured card. If I were building from the ground up, it would be my first choice. I can't justify moving from a Prelude to a Forte however.

I diddnt think it had the ability to have true digital output surround sound (DTS or DDL)

[Donnie27]

I diddnt think it had the ability to have true digital output surround sound (DTS or DDL)

http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_forte.php

A couple of the features might not be working fully do to drivers, but it has DTS and DDL. It is even compatible with the new I/O drive from Creative.
Support for DTS Neo:PC & DTS Interactive for Vista ( DTS™ for Vista Available via Downloads)

Creative Titanium I/O Drive (http://www.compusa.com/include/AddCartfromGallery.asp?EdpNo=3988132&csid=ITD&Sku=C44-3392&imgcart=1&imgcounter=6)

Extension : Creative proprietary AND_EXT, DID_EXE connector for X-Fi I/O driver

http://support.creative.com/kb/ShowArticle.aspx?sid=56793

[Xoulz]

I just hope the come out with a Real PCI-E sound card soon, like an upgrade to their main high quality line with full DTS/DDL capabilities instead of this low profile card targeted at home theater machines.

They do, it's called Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-FI Titanium (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102024) series.


It's native PCI-e.