TFC Monsta against 4 other Rads - Review

[bundymania]

Text is in german but hey, you can check the results anyway, or use an translator :)

http://www.forumdeluxx.de/forum/showthread.php?t=566914


as you see, monsta + 140mm fans with good airflow beats the rest :)

[alacheesu]

Interesting. Thanks for testing. :up:

[rocket733]

Well as much as I like looking at pictures I wish I could understand the testing methodology. Additionally it would be useful to see it tested against Thermochill and Swiftech rads.

[jollyjoker]

good find i guess ill check this out

[faster3200]

While I am not doubting just how good the monsta rad is, those aren't exactly high pressure fans. I am guessing the monsta would be even better with the fans most of us use here. Now someone needs to test monsta vs. BIX vs. stacked MCRs on some 3000rpm+ Deltas; that would be interesting :up:.

[NaeKuh]

you see, monsta + 140mm fans with good airflow beats the rest :)

that was kinda obvious..

problem is where the rest fits the monsta wont.. :rofl:

[WaterFlex]

Thanks for the link. Monsta is the absolute king.

[moose517]

i would love to have one of them monsta rads, couldn't fit in my case though without major modding.

[Spankyfart]

that was kinda obvious..

problem is where the rest fits the monsta wont..

yeah it's pretty much a Thermochill on steroids, I have a hard enough time to fit 2 of those in my custom case already.

At some point bigger is better just doesn't apply, still a smexy rad though.

[WaterFlex]

Hmm, I like to have my rad lieing on the table :) It is so showy.

[Utnorris]

Can anyone tell if it was just the CPU in that loop or more components? I would be interested to see how well it would cool a cpu/dual gpu loop to see if it had enough capacity to do it.

[alacheesu]

Can anyone tell if it was just the CPU in that loop or more components? I would be interested to see how well it would cool a cpu/dual gpu loop to see if it had enough capacity to do it.

My German is not the best, but I believe he had an E6400 @ 3.2GHz 1.45V, HD4870, Mosfets and NB in the loop. He loaded with Orthos and rthdribl v.1.2.

[elpibe10]

I want one !

Would be great if Feser can include a pair of stands so that it can be placed externally.

[Waterlogged]

Until this rad can be tested against other 140mm fan rads, any such testing is worthless and is like comparing a V6 Camaro/Mustang against a V8 Camaro/Mustang. One is just going to knock the snot out of the other because it has "more".

[alejo]

Thanks bundy for the informative post (at hwluxx :) ) It is very much appreciated.

[MpG]

Until this rad can be tested against other 140mm fan rads, any such testing is worthless and is like comparing a V6 Camaro/Mustang against a V8 Camaro/Mustang. One is just going to knock the snot out of the other because it has "more".
True, but at least this gives a little evidence that this isn't just a cheap piece of bling. For those with the space and fans, it at least bears consideration.

[Serpentarius]

this "Monsta" rad requires "Monsta" fans?
:D

[Waterlogged]

True, but at least this gives a little evidence that this isn't just a cheap piece of bling. For those with the space and fans, it at least bears consideration.

Even if it was just bling, with the Fester name attached to it, I doubt it'd be "cheap". Better way of putting the testing done...It's (the Monsta) putting Chuck Norris in the ring against Pee Wee Herman (insert any 120mm fan rad here) and thinking poor Pee Wee has a chance to even land a blow, just ain't gonna happen.

[N19h7m4r3]

Wonder if it will fit in the bottom of a TJ07.

[Source]

http://i38.tinypic.com/19ta45.jpg
(here some more, other, pictures) (http://www.highflow.nl/forum/f17/tfc-monsta-rad-923/#post9995)

:slobber:

..So this Monsta works best with the Monsta fan?
http://images.ncix.com/forumimages/134762EC-126F-C897-B2FE6336300C1978.jpg

[vengance_01]

wow that radiator is sick!:)

[breathemetal]

So i take it this rad/fan combo is not for us quiet types?

[vengance_01]

Yea I bet your gonna want some decent fans to get the most out of it. Its super thick. ;)

[bentleya]

So i take it this rad/fan combo is not for us quiet types?


will come in more than version, with diffrent CFM's which means diffrent noise out puts :)

[Waterlogged]

So i take it this rad/fan combo is not for us quiet types?

Well, it barely beat the GTX lite with fans spinning @610 RPM's. I think UK2's would be the perfect 120mm fan for this. I refuse to speak for the 140mm Fester fans though, IIRC, all we've seen so far for them is....hype. So to answer your question, it "could" be silent.

[Nightstar]

I'm not really impressed by the testing methodology. The Monster was run with larger diameter fans and with twice the total number of fans compared to the other radiators in the test(excepting the mo-ra). We still don't have any meaningful comparisons to judge it's perfomance by. Moreover even when equipped with the same diameter of fans the fans used were different models.

IMO this test is a wash.

[Mark90]

These fans would rock it (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=403&products_id=24415)

[Waterlogged]

These fans would rock it (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=403&products_id=24415)

Yeah...if you don't mind wearing a hearing aid by the age of 30.

[warriorpoet]

Yeah...if you don't mind wearing a hearing aid by the age of 30.

what?

[Source]

"Triebwerk" - Low Speed approx. 1000 rpm MAX
"Triebwerk S" - Mid Speed approx. 1350 rpm MAX
"Triebwerk RS" - High Speed approx. 2800 rpm MAX

Features of the 1350RPM:

- Measurement: 120 (l) x 120 (w) x 55 mm (h)
- Speed: 1350 rpm
- Noise < 21 dB/A
- NB-NanoSLI Bearing
- NB Triple Modular Housing
- NB Multiframe SIlent Technology
- Air Flow > 65 CFM
- Input Power 3,8 Watt
- Static Pressure > 2,690 mmH O
- MTBF (25°C) > 160 000 h
- Temp Range -10° ~ +85° C
- Optimized in Pull Direction
- Can be used with M3 and M4 Screws
- Cable Management - You can combine up to 4 fans together, so no long cables anymore
- Powered by PSU 4 PIn Molex
- One long cable for the last Fan 50 cm
- Tacho signal cable only needed by one of the installed fans

Still 3D models but damn nice :slob:
http://i35.tinypic.com/2ivgy1v.jpghttp://i35.tinypic.com/2mn2omd.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/29c1j75.jpghttp://i34.tinypic.com/r9jucy.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/mvnoy0.jpghttp://i33.tinypic.com/20048p1.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/28jw93m.jpghttp://i37.tinypic.com/24zvod1.jpg

[warriorpoet]

"Triebwerk" - Low Speed approx. 1000 rpm MAX
"Triebwerk S" - Mid Speed approx. 1350 rpm MAX
"Triebwerk RS" - High Speed approx. 2800 rpm MAX

Features of the 1350RPM:

- Measurement: 120 (l) x 120 (w) x 55 mm (h)
- Speed: 1350 rpm
- Noise < 21 dB/A
- NB-NanoSLI Bearing
- NB Triple Modular Housing
- NB Multiframe SIlent Technology
- Air Flow > 65 CFM
- Input Power 3,8 Watt
- Static Pressure > 2,690 mmH O
- MTBF (25°C) > 160 000 h
- Temp Range -10° ~ +85° C
- Optimized in Pull Direction
- Can be used with M3 and M4 Screws
- Cable Management - You can combine up to 4 fans together, so no long cables anymore
- Powered by PSU 4 PIn Molex
- One long cable for the last Fan 50 cm
- Tacho signal cable only needed by one of the installed fans

sooooooooooooooo exaggerated. Like 2x SilenX's levels of exaggeration. Not even close to approaching any semblance of a grasp on reality. Airflow noise alone exceeds 21Db at 1350RPM on a 25mm 120, let alone a 55.

Unless, of course, they're measuring from 3m+ with a probe that starts at 25Db...

I might try the 1000RPM model at 5v when it comes out to see if the bearings are decent. Then it'll probably get donated to SPCR ;)

[NaeKuh]

There's a lot of stuff I'd be interested in seeing. You know like how it did against a little known rad called the Thermochill PA 120.3, or a GTX 480 even. Basically, if your using 120mm type fans, a TFC 480 with 4 fans kicks the Monsta's ass with 6 of the same fan at 7v. And, because the rads so thick, your not getting anything near top performance unless you use push pull 140mm size fans. Now imagine how hard that little pupply will be to mount.

How would it have done if it went up aginst a 480 style rad with push pull fans?

andyc

Just noticed this too...

:rofl:

The Monster would do better if it could get more airflow....

[Source]

I might try the 1000RPM model at 5v when it comes out to see if the bearings are decent. Then it'll probably get donated to SPCR ;)That was my idea 2 :p:
Untill i saw the price, here in The Netherlands, we can preorder them, starting at €25,- and the highest RPM at €30,-
That makes $35,- and $42,-

Four of those 2800RPM fans makes $168,- .. You can throw 28 Yate Loon fans for the same price at that thing :D :ROTF:

No thank you very much :ROTF:

[iboomalot]

Looking at the charts it seems the Quad TFC with same RPM fans does a nice job

Think I will keep my current setup but is a nice looking rad


also with my SFF21E fans set at 800 rpm its super quiet

[warriorpoet]

That was my idea 2 :p:
Untill i saw the price, here in The Netherlands, we can preorder them, starting at €25,- and the highest RPM at €30,-
That makes $35,- and $42,-

Four of those 2800RPM fans makes $168,- .. You can throw 28 Yate Loon fans for the same price at that thing :D :ROTF:

No thank you very much :ROTF:

:shocked:

Yeah. No thanks.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

Guess what ladies and gentlemen? they've officially done it, they've won..... TheFailCrown !!!!!


they took the concept of a radiator ultimately and retardedly way too far with this one. It seems to me painfully obvious that the rad is indeed TOO thick and as a result it restricts air to a level just under that of a HW labs GTX (judging by temps on the review charts) and to make matters even worse, there isn't a case on the market today that can properly fit this radiator so its extra performance is 100% absolutely useless...

do I even need to start discussing price issues here?

[Source]

A nice idea is to put this beast on your desk with some foot stands :D
And does the Air restriction problem still occur with 8 fans, 4 pull / 4 push?

[Exavier]

one thing I would like to ask is how feasible rigging up a similar fan chain is with other fans?
like the picture in Source's post

[slim142]

A nice idea is to put this beast on your desk with some foot stands :D
And does the Air restriction problem still occur with 8 fans, 4 pull / 4 push?

I want to know this too
Also, since no case will be able to hold this rad inside and the RadBox is a No-No, where can you put this is the question...
Im not the kind of person that would have the rad outside the case if its not properly secured to the case or mounted somehow, but mounting this rad seems... like a mission.

I would like to know from the people who plan on getting this one, where and how are you planning on mounting it?

[Source]

How about building a custom WaterKegIII look-a-like that fits this monster?? :D
http://www.externalpccooling.net/Products.html

[elpibe10]

Foot stands for placing it vertically on the floor (or table) would be nice :up:

[Nightstar]

That is one sweet looking fan. I like how the chassis extends well beyond the blades negating the need for a deep shroud. The mounting points look as though they're vibration damping and I'd expect it to have some serious pressure. My only objections are the clear acrylic used for the chassis(will look nasty in a month of use) and the use of SLI in the bearing name... why why has everything from memory to bearings suddenly have to be named SLI.

[skinnee]

I've been in communication with TFC about testing the TFC Monster, but do not have any word as to actually receiving one. I really want to see testing done right with this rad in order to gauge actual performance, here's to hoping for a sample!

[Xavior]

Guess what ladies and gentlemen? they've officially done it, they've won..... TheFailCrown !!!!!


they took the concept of a radiator ultimately and retardedly way too far with this one. It seems to me painfully obvious that the rad is indeed TOO thick and as a result it restricts air to a level just under that of a HW labs GTX (judging by temps on the review charts) and to make matters even worse, there isn't a case on the market today that can properly fit this radiator so its extra performance is 100% absolutely useless...

do I even need to start discussing price issues here?

I don't think the performance is that disappointing. It's thick though and benefits most from high airflow or 14cm fans.

IMO, this thing is no harder than the 480 to fit.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

I don't think the performance is that disappointing. It's thick though and benefits most from high airflow or 14cm fans.

IMO, this thing is no harder than the 480 to fit.

you clearly have never had a 140mm radiator, it doesnt fit between 5.25" bay rails which makes it nearly impossible to fit anywhere.

I had a HWlabs (3x140mm) 420 GTX a few weeks ago and I had to send it back because there isn't a single place in the Lian-Li PC-P80 that that radiator would fit. The PC P80 is oine of the biggest cases Lian-Li Makes :fact:

[Xavior]

Does V2000 ring any bells? ;)

The PC-P80 is large(r) but its space is obviously used in a different way.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

Does V2000 ring any bells? ;)

The PC-P80 is large(r) but its space is obviously used in a different way.

just making the point that it isnt gonna fit in any cases except for a select few

[aspire.comptech]

Does V2000 ring any bells? ;)

The PC-P80 is large(r) but its space is obviously used in a different way.

The issue is with thickness I would say.

To get good pressure your going to need 38mm thick fans in push/pull which means 76mm thick of fans and then the thickness of the rad is what another 60mm of so. So we're talking about upwards of 136mm thick setup.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

The issue is with thickness I would say.

To get good pressure your going to need 38mm thick fans in push/pull which means 76mm thick of fans and then the thickness of the rad is what another 60mm of so. So we're talking about upwards of 136mm thick setup.

the monsta is 100mm thick :shocked: so then your getting into an 8inch thick radiator.:down:

[Serpentarius]

the monsta is 100mm thick :shocked: so then your getting into an 8inch thick radiator.:down:

about the thickness of 3 rads (aproximate)
but will surely thickness is the better performer? there are cases where thick vs thin and thick barely wins

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

about the thickness of 3 rads (aproximate)
but will surely thickness is the better performer? there are cases where thick vs thin and thick barely wins

well that is what my hypothesis is about the monsta rad. I believe that it is too thick and thus it actually decreases the performance of the rad with just 3 fans on it compared to a thinner version. I don't have the numbers but I'll stick to my guns on this one and I hope skinnee ends up proving me right ;)

[ProtoTyper]

this "Monsta" rad requires "Monsta" fans?
:D

nope

[aspire.comptech]

nope

You realize he was making a joke right? :clap:

Using the word "Monsta" to describe both the name of the radiator and the concept of extreme ridiculousness.

[warriorpoet]

I wanna see this wih two shrouds and 6x 120mm fans at 500 RPM or lower. I imagine a double shrouded Monsta with 6x ~300RPM fans would be pretty quiet, but I'm not so sure that will fit in my living room ;)

[MrToad]

Although it sort of tickles my curiosity, because it may fit the bottom of my V2000B as I have it now (I have two PA120.3 down there), quoting the Aqua-PCs admin from his forum:

"£212 for a rad....... E P I C F A I L" (http://forum.aqua-pcs.co.uk/showpost.php?p=4144&postcount=10)

I'll leave to you to decide what would you ask to a £212 rad to make it worth your money.

[orangekiwii]

i'd definitely get this as long as its not sky high in price

i mean if its at 200$ i'd probably get it, a bit steep but so what :)

[Eddie3dfx]

Someone mentioned this is 100mm deep (about 4") but looking at it in pics, it looks thicker than 4".
Can someone confirm the depth?

[MrToad]

i'd definitely get this as long as its not sky high in price

i mean if its at 200$ i'd probably get it, a bit steep but so what :)

£212 != $200... not yet anyway...


Someone mentioned this is 100mm deep (about 4") but looking at it in pics, it looks thicker than 4".
Can someone confirm the depth?

Dimensions are:

476mm - 148,6mm - 104,2mm (LxHxW), so you're right, is thicker than 4", aproximately 0.098" thicker :p:
This info is in the thread the OP linked... :rolleyes:

[sargus]

If using the 120mm fans on this radiator, would the fan spacing be like the thermochill?

[xTKxhom3r]

do you guys think this thing could perform better than 2 swiftech 120.3's

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

do you guys think this thing could perform better than 2 swiftech 120.3's

lol send one to me and I can tell you, my guess is nope.

[Groveling_Wyrm]

And I want to see 38mm fans and shrouds, it would be just as long as wide then...:ROTF: You could call it the Monsta Brick O' rad combination end table then:) With the right hardware, you could just mount the MB and other componets to the rad, hell with the case:D

andyc

Well, we now know how to fill up a Mountain Mods Ascension really fast.....:D

:rofl::ROTF::rotf:

[ProtoTyper]

do you guys think this thing could perform better than 2 swiftech 120.3's

it beats them easily.

[Fragger]

Space aint a prob for me

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t168/beveldrive/IMG_1300.jpg

Gimme

[Waterlogged]

it beats them easily.

Proof please!

[bentleya]

I don't know who you think you are prototyper but you can;t go around saying stuff without stuff to back them up :)

[MrToad]

it beats them easily.


Proof please!


I don't know who you think you are prototyper but you can;t go around saying stuff without stuff to back them up :)

:fact:

Even educated guesses are often not welcome, let alone wild speculation.

[iboomalot]

Not sure where being 1" thick vs 4" thick makes a big difference on type of fan??

wider = more surface area to help in cooling.

Fin spacing I would think has more effect on a fans ability to push or pull air thru the rad.

If all else was equal and a fan is pushing/pulling air down a 1" or 4" column of the fins, IMO the resistance difference is too small to measure.


IMO construction of the rad ie. tube thickness, # of passes , overall surface area , metals used , fins/inch -- are far more important.


This is just my uneducated guess but I hope its welcome :)

[Webby]

The thickness of the rad will have a huge impact on the performance of the fans take a look at Vapor's testing (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3014154&postcount=11) and look what an MCR rad does to airflow a reduction of ~20-25% some of this will be the positioning of the tubes but the majority is caused by the air being forced through the small channels rather than being able to move into the wider area (in a cone shape from the back of the fan). Ideally we would have Vapor test with 2 rads stacked as well as that would show the effect nicely.

[ILikeCosmosS]

thats just one fat rad
its probaly the next line of TFC rads

[Meatpuppet]

Just wait for the Monsta 230mm editions to hit the market, why stop at silly when you can shoot for sheer comedy. Although in retrospect a 230x2 would be pretty sweet in the new CM ATCS 840. Anyhow I digress, with the advent of this rad and things like the BP "pimped out" D5, I think some manufacturers will soon get a lesson in market dynamics.

[Martinm210]

Any significant gains are going to be due to the 140mm surface are not the extra thickness. If any double thickness style rad is only 8-15% better than a slim style MCR rad, doubling it again isn't going to gain a whole lot. In my rad testing I was finding up to 80+% of the air's capacity used up in some double thickness rads and 70% with slim style rad with lower speed fans.

The problem lies with the ability of air to absorb heat. Heat capacity of air is very poor and considered more of an insulator because of this. IMHO, the larger surface area of the 140mm format frontal area is probably worth the better part of any gain over other rads, the thickness just can't do much unless you're running really strong air flow rates.

I like the 140mm sizing though despite the fact that most cases will have problems with that. Personally, I'd like to see an MCR style slim 140mm quad rad. Something that very economical and optimized for performance. The extra thickness thing has been mostly for show and that includes all the double thickness types too, there's just not much to be gained there with really low speed fans.

Swiftech seems to be the one that's along the lines of designed purely for performance while keeping production costs down low.

And I call BS on saying a quad thickness rad will outpace two MCR320's that are allowed fresh air into each one...it's physically impossible. If the MCR was using up almost 70% of the air's heat capacity, no matter how thick you make the rad, it will not make more than 30% gains from added thickness. If the 140mm dimension doesn't have at least 70% more frontal surface area than a single MCR320, it won't outperform two of them.

Sorry, but I see extra thickness as more show than go and that goes for all of the double thickness rads including the PA. The specific heat capacity of air and our desire to use low speed fans is simply a limiting factor that works against extra thickness. The only real way to gain is to increase the frontal surface area...not the thickness. I do like it but I don't follow suit in thinking it's size is proportional to gains, I know it's not.

Would I run one of these, you bet. I like TFC products, they have really good QC and make quality products, the only issue with me is cost which is something apparently they are working on. I'm as guilty as anyone in liking things that are oversized. I'm working on putting a 54mm piston and cylinder on my 50mm bore chainsaw at the moment. I don't need it, I want it....lol! Heck I only cut 3 cords of wood a year, so all this work so I can reduce my cutting time from 12 hours a year to 10...yep...that's what I wanted. Did I need bigger tires for my truck, nope but I do have them. We all generally like that sort of thing or some of us do I guess and I'm guilty...:D

I am also looking forward to the fans they have in the works, there could be some real gains there as well.

[Hondacity]

how would you predict the temps in this graph martin? with the 570w heater core and kaze 3000...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c5/hondacity25/asdafsdfasdf.jpg

[skinnee]

To piggy back on Martin's post. The only thing I have found as a gain over the thicker rads is the larger/more tubes. This will benefit flow and pressure drop and thats about it. My findings also concur with Martin's statement, thicker rads need higher fan speeds to start showing any heat dissipation gains. However, you start to get into the annoyingly loud fans the thicker the rad for the gains.

As always...its a big trade-off.

[tommyxv]

http://i38.tinypic.com/19ta45.jpg
(here some more, other, pictures) (http://www.highflow.nl/forum/f17/tfc-monsta-rad-923/#post9995)

:slobber:

..So this Monsta works best with the Monsta fan?
http://images.ncix.com/forumimages/134762EC-126F-C897-B2FE6336300C1978.jpg

Thats a cool looking fan...:) Maybe need a 220 line run our systems with that!

[gabe]

While I am not doubting just how good the monsta rad is, those aren't exactly high pressure fans. I am guessing the monsta would be even better with the fans most of us use here. Now someone needs to test monsta vs. BIX vs. stacked MCRs on some 3000rpm+ Deltas; that would be interesting :up:.

BTW the stacked MCR's are here (120, 220, 320). Will be publishing on site this week.

[Martinm210]

To piggy back on Martin's post. The only thing I have found as a gain over the thicker rads is the larger/more tubes. This will benefit flow and pressure drop and thats about it. My findings also concur with Martin's statement, thicker rads need higher fan speeds to start showing any heat dissipation gains. However, you start to get into the annoyingly loud fans the thicker the rad for the gains.

As always...its a big trade-off.

I'm also curious if more than dual pass is also a benefit in double and these quad thickness designs? I know there was testing early on the the MCR developement days when it was determined that dual pass was basically optimal as a balance between pressure drop vs thermal efficiency.

So if dual pass is optimal on a slim style radiator vs. single or triple pass. You might also make a guess that triple pass may be about right for double thickness or perhaps quad pass on something like this quad thickness rad.

Not sure any of that is being explored, but there might be some very minor gains with exploring more than dual pass flow designs with these thicker designs.:shrug:

HWlabs essentially did that with the thinner tubes in the GTX/GTS series. It results in more pressure drop, but it should help thermal efficiency a small amount.

I don't know, but I'm sure air's heat capacity is the biggest limiter, perhaps some sort of pressure oriented fan would also make some very notable gains:shrug:

[Martinm210]

how would you predict the temps in this graph martin? with the 570w heater core and kaze 3000...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c5/hondacity25/asdafsdfasdf.jpg

7.14 vs 6.25?

That's about a 12% gain from the double thickness with ultra high speed fans. That's about what I was coming up with, seemed to be inline with c/w values I could compare. Also note that the PA has more frontal surface area with it's extra large fan spacing. This wasn't by accident, it helps and also helps with air pressure drop.:up:

The GTX is obviously in it's prime with these fans. Nothing can touch a double thickness GTX with fans this strong, it starts pulling way out in front. It is a bit of a different animal in this regard but that's due to it's extreme density and I think perhaps very thin tubing as well. The GTX is clearly king of high speed fans, no doubt there. It would however fit with the thought of double thickness being double performance, that's correct, but in the notion of what the majority use for fan speeds (1300RPM on average) double thickness does not mean double performance. I recall not too long ago running 100+cfm 70mm fans on heatsinks also, so I've got to think there has been a general trend of noise acceptance declining. People want quiet performance and it'll probably continue that direction before going the other way. You probably can find a strong enough flow rate that would show quad thickness is quad performance, but it's not the fans we use.


I can't remember who tested stacked rads earlier, but I think they were showing something like a 30% gain or something in that neighborhood. That's actually better than double thickness and probably due to the turbulence interaction with the fan blades. There appears to be some sort of extra boost with stacking two slims versus one double thickness, not sure exactly why but it must be the fan interaction and I can only guess better turbulence.


Anyhow, I just recall when I first started watercooling. It was commonplace for people to say double thickness rads are double performance. That's not the case at all. More like 8-15% perhaps as much as 30% with stacking or the extra thickness. I just fall back to that air in vs air out versus water temperature.

If the air out is 70% of the difference to the water temperature (70% used up), there's only another 30% or so capacity left in the air to strip out.

[Lu(ky]

I'm also curious if more than dual pass is also a benefit in double and these quad thickness designs? I know there was testing early on the the MCR developement days when it was determined that dual pass was basically optimal as a balance between pressure drop vs thermal efficiency.

So if dual pass is optimal on a slim style radiator vs. single or triple pass. You might also make a guess that triple pass may be about right for double thickness or perhaps quad pass on something like this quad thickness rad.

Not sure any of that is being explored, but there might be some very minor gains with exploring more than dual pass flow designs with these thicker designs.:shrug:

HWlabs essentially did that with the thinner tubes in the GTX/GTS series. It results in more pressure drop, but it should help thermal efficiency a small amount.

I don't know, but I'm sure air's heat capacity is the biggest limiter, perhaps some sort of pressure oriented fan would also make some very notable gains:shrug:

martin do you think 6 x 140mm fans push/pull at 55CFM will be sufficient? I bought these Evercool 140mm EC-RSF-14 Red Scorpion Fans (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=316&products_id=23614) they come with a 140mm to 120mm shroud. I will not use shroud unless I use the 120x38 fan with it.

[Martinm210]

martin do you think 6 x 140mm fans push/pull at 55CFM will be sufficient? I bought these Evercool 140mm EC-RSF-14 Red Scorpion Fans (http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=316&products_id=23614) they come with a 140mm to 120mm shroud. I will not use shroud unless I use the 120x38 fan with it.

Push/Pull should help quite a bit. It all depends on the fin density of these rads which I'm not sure what it is but I'd bet it's worth 30% or more over just pull or push and probably more than that.:up:

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

BTW the stacked MCR's are here (120, 220, 320). Will be publishing on site this week.

schweeeeet, mine are performing amazing FYI running in series

[bundymania]

Monsta Fans for the Monsta Radiator :D

http://www.abload.de/img/sample1qpsq.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/sample2ctig.jpg

[G-UNIT91]

Monsta Fans for the Monsta Radiator :D

http://www.abload.de/img/sample1qpsq.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/sample2ctig.jpg

when?:D

[HESmelaugh]

Hmmm... the renders looked nicer, somehow. (Yes, I know it's not all about looks, but still)

[bundymania]

color and design maybe change until final release (may for the 120mm version - 140mm fans 2 month later...so i heard)

http://www.abload.de/img/dsc_1381v0c1.jpg

[G-UNIT91]

I'll waiting you review:up:

[faster3200]

Are there any numbers on those fans?

[Bond Number]

Even if you could magically create a radiator such that the air flow has high enough so that the molar heat capacity was not an issue, there is still heat transfer driving force problem. The radiator surface temperature as a function depth decreases exponentially, not linearly. So even in a best case scenario, doubling the thickness of a radiator would never lead to twice the performance. The price/performance ratio for increasing thickness increases exponentially and is only a gimmick. Not only do you have to pay more for the radiator but you need more coolant and better fans.

I agree with the pervious posters that the best performance gains will be seen with an increase in frontal area, one would still be limited by a temperature driving force but the air flow restriction would be reduced and should allow for better performance given the same amount of radiator material. I guess that this is kind of a given and as others have expressed will make mounting more difficult. The other ideas mention by previous posters like changing fin and coolant flow geometry, along with thickness or frontal area are probably the best ideas, because they could help to reduce the size and/or cost of the radiator. But these more complicated designs also require the most ingenuity. It would be nice to see some new designs but the practical performance for radiators is probably pretty close to its limit.

[bundymania]

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=C0tMNKWxBkY&feature=email

like kids @ xmas :D

[Panthols]

Hmmm... waiting for the TFC radiator waterblocks. Since the heat capacity of air is so poor, why not just use water to cool your radiator?

In all seriousness though, I've thought about a radiator not quite this thick, but with built in fans. I'm wondering if you could possibly have some belt or remote drive fans sandwiched in between two radiators (or even a radiator designed with a space in the center) so the dead spot is minimized and you get the same performance of dual rads with the thickness of a shrouded 120.3.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

Hmmm... waiting for the TFC radiator waterblocks. Since the heat capacity of air is so poor, why not just use water to cool your radiator?

In all seriousness though, I've thought about a radiator not quite this thick, but with built in fans. I'm wondering if you could possibly have some belt or remote drive fans sandwiched in between two radiators (or even a radiator designed with a space in the center) so the dead spot is minimized and you get the same performance of dual rads with the thickness of a shrouded 120.3.

so your saying you want stackable mcr 320's lol

http://jab-tech.com/Swiftech-MCR-320-QP-Stackable-Radiator-MCR320-QP-STACK-pr-4419.html

[Panthols]

No, I'm saying that I want a stackable or pre-stacked system designed with 1-3 120mm fans that have an external motor (located in an area that would not impede air flow) and are belt driven (or some other method). This would mean that the center area is only 5mm in diameter instead of 30 eliminating almost all dead spots along with the need for a shroud.

[bundymania]

I got pics of the final version - here we go again:

http://www.abload.de/img/triebwerk-finals33o.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/triebwerk-final1x7e1.jpg

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

personally not liking those guards you can get some fingers in there really easy........though awesome.


I got pics of the final version - here we go again:

http://www.abload.de/img/triebwerk-finals33o.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/triebwerk-final1x7e1.jpg

[Lu(ky]

Hey bundymania what is the CFM and dBA on the fans. Also I asked the question if a Monsta would fit in the bottom area of a Silverstone TJ07 and the answer is yes and no... I fits but has no room for the PSU unless you mount is somewhere else in the 5.25 drive bay area or add the PSU extender from Lian Li and it will fit then...

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj252/russb3n/ONLINE%20STUFF%20do%20not%20delete/IMG_1493.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj252/russb3n/ONLINE%20STUFF%20do%20not%20delete/IMG_1486.jpg
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/images/products/pe01b_01.jpg
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/images/products/pe01b_02.jpg

[Scubar]

Actually pretty disappointed, Waste of money buying a radiator like that.

You still need high speed/pressure fans to get good performance from it, The whole point of having a big radiator is to use lower speed fans for silence. The Xchanger 480 seems like the best out of the lot.

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

Actually pretty disappointed, Waste of money buying a radiator like that.

You still need high speed/pressure fans to get good performance from it, The whole point of having a big radiator is to use lower speed fans for silence. The Xchanger 480 seems like the best out of the lot.


I still buy it....like in computer building everyone has a preference just like buying a lian li case the folks over at OC.net say its a big waste of money expecially the P80 model so they say...........I still have my monsta sitting on my counter top havent installed it yet plan to put it outside of the case something this big you should not hide its like trying to hide 44inch tires on a chevy bronco rock crawler behind a smart car just aint gonna happen you want to show it off lol..........

[LockBreaker]

good find i guess ill check this out

What kind of temps are you getting with your i7 and the Fuzion v1? I have one right here, and I don't know if I should buy a Heatkiller instead, if the Fuzion will give me alright temps at 3.8 ghz with the i7 it's okay for me. The budget is kinda tight right now. :)

Nice review bundymania. :D

[affiliate13]

I just had one delivered, i got 6x 140/25mm sharkoon 1200rpm fans for it.
I now realise i should have got higher rpm fans but ill post results next week (or thereabouts) so you guys can get more info on these (for better or worse).

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

1200rpm is a lot for a 140mm... those are better than most.

[affiliate13]

I thought i was being clever picking the 1200rpm 28db models but they do a 1500rpm one too which i may swap these too if i think there might be a decent gain.

Hopefully i wasnt too far off the mark with these.

[Waterlogged]

personally not liking those guards you can get some fingers in there really easy........though awesome.

It's not only the guard, it's the motor support too. I agree, they sacrificed too much safety for reduced wind resistance.:shakes:

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

got a link to the 1500 rpm's ? :D

[affiliate13]

got a link to the 1500 rpm's ? :D

Yep sure :),
http://www.sharkoon.com/html/produkte/luefter/system_fan/index_en.html
S1402515P-3 is the part number.

Scan in the UK sell them for just under £7
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/140mm-Sharkoon-System-Fan-Series-140x140x25mm-1500rpm-33db(A)
These are listed as 33dba.

I saw this too:
http://www.cogage.com/a_page/cpu_cooler/mst-140/product_cpu_cooler_mst-140.html

It comes bundled with a 140mm 1500rpm fan, not sure if they can be found separately though.

[bundymania]

Specs of the Triebwerk Fans:

Dimensions
Weight
Rated Voltage
Start Voltage
Operating Voltage
Input Power
Input Current
RPM
Static Pressure
Air Flow 1
Air Flow 2
Acoustical Noise
Lifetime MTBF min.
Operating Temperature
Storage Temperature





tk121

120 x 120 x 55 mm
190 g
12 ~ 13.2 V
5.5 V
5.5 ~ 13.5 V
1.56 W
0.13 ~ 0.19 A
1200 ± 10 %
1.62 mm - H2O max
104.7 m3/h max
61.6 CFM max
21 dB(A)
100.000 h
-10°C ~ +70°C
-40°C ~ +70°C


TK122 LS:
120 x 120 x 55 mm
190 g
12 ~ 13.2 V
4.5 V
4.5 ~ 13.5 V
3.48 W
0.29 ~ 0.51 A
1800 ± 10 %
3.380 mm - H2O max
150.2 m3/h max
88.4 CFM max
30 dB(A)
80.000 h
-10°C ~ +70°C
-40°C ~ +70°C


TK 121 LS

Starting Voltage (5,5V) 640 U/min

@ 7 Volt 800 U/min

@ 10 V 1080 U/min

@ 12 Volt 1200 U/min



TK122 MS

Starting Voltage (4,5V) 840 U/min

at 7 Volt 1200 U/min

at 10 V 1600 U/min

at 12 Volt 1800 U/min

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

1200rpm is a lot for a 140mm... those are better than most.

really? Koolance has some 1900rpm ones at least by their spec :D

[NaeKuh]

Dude...

San Aces are expensive enough, i cant believe theres a fan more expensive then a san ace.

Those tribe works fans are suposed to be 35 dollars each. :X

you can get a waterblock for 35 dollars.

[affiliate13]

Specs of the Triebwerk Fans:

Those both are 120mm, will there be a 140mm version?

[bentleya]

Those both are 120mm, will there be a 140mm version?

Yes, but when i talked top them yesterday, they don't know how long it will be ;)

[Hondacity]

hey dude

i think these fans are the latest generation AcoustiFans

:rofl:



Dude...

San Aces are expensive enough, i cant believe theres a fan more expensive then a san ace.

Those tribe works fans are suposed to be 35 dollars each. :X

you can get a waterblock for 35 dollars.

[NaeKuh]

yeah but i wish the price was a bit notched down.

If you think hoenstly about it, theres a few rads which can only take the 140mm natively, black ice, and this fesser.

Now account for each fan costing almost 30 dollars a piece for a 120x1 version, you need 4 to power a fesser 480, your fans cost as much as your fesser radiator does.

Does that make sense to anyone?

These fans are nice... but wow... bentlya tell your connections there tooooooo expensive to be costing as much as radiators when you pair them....

[bentleya]

yeah but i wish the price was a bit notched down.

If you think hoenstly about it, theres a few rads which can only take the 140mm natively, black ice, and this fesser.

Now account for each fan costing almost 30 dollars a piece for a 120x1 version, you need 4 to power a fesser 480, your fans cost as much as your fesser radiator does.

Does that make sense to anyone?

These fans are nice... but wow... bentlya tell your connections there tooooooo expensive to be costing as much as radiators when you pair them....


Will do :up: not promising anything tho ;).

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

yeah but i wish the price was a bit notched down.

If you think hoenstly about it, theres a few rads which can only take the 140mm natively, black ice, and this fesser.

Now account for each fan costing almost 30 dollars a piece for a 120x1 version, you need 4 to power a fesser 480, your fans cost as much as your fesser radiator does.

Does that make sense to anyone?

These fans are nice... but wow... bentlya tell your connections there tooooooo expensive to be costing as much as radiators when you pair them....

never thought of that one 120 dollars worth of fans thats after the fact of paying for the MONSTA of 260 dollars already for a total of 380 dollars for a difference of .8C from the 480 rad...........now the price to performance ratio is through the roof!!!! :rolleyes:

[warmage]

bundymania dB(A) was measured with the fan blade off ?

[bundymania]

http://www.abload.de/img/monstariebwerk2p51x.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/monstariebwerkh2uq.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/monstatriebwerk3a710.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/triebwerkbeidef65n.jpg

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

YOUR SUCH A JERK..............JOKING


http://www.abload.de/img/monstariebwerk2p51x.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/monstariebwerkh2uq.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/monstatriebwerk3a710.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/triebwerkbeidef65n.jpg

[NaeKuh]

I don't know who you think you are prototyper but you can;t go around saying stuff without stuff to back them up :)

I think in push/pull config, with good fans, this rad can probably take on 2 mcr320's without a hitch.

if you use a tribework fan on only pull or push, a MCR320 x 2 would most likely slaughter it with the higher heat load.

its a matter how how much air you can have pass though that rad and how efficient the transfer is. Martin told us the MCR series does around 70%.

So im assuming with pushpull config, you can tweek the monster

OH guys, this rad is too big for a regular Mountain mods BTW, its about .8inches too long to fit in side a 18x18inch case.

[Martinm210]

[IMG]http://www.abload.de/img/triebwerkbeidef65n.jpg

If all goes well, I may get a chance to take a looksy at these fans too as part of my fan testing collection..:up:

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

If all goes well, I may get a chance to take a looksy at these fans too as part of my fan testing collection..:up:

I would hate to spend 35 dollars for each one with such low output........

[HESmelaugh]

I was hoping you would test these, martin. Hope you get some samples soon and looking forward to your results. :up:

[bundymania]

might be interesting for some guys out there:


http://www.abload.de/img/lackierung12wkn.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/lackierung2hri3.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/lackierung3qvii.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/lackierung4bvbc.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/lackierung5so2t.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/lackierung6gouk.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/lackierung7pq4n.jpg

[Sadasius]

Nice pics! I am very interested in knowing how those fans do on a rad. If they perform better then a San Ace I am switching. If not I will remain where I am. Might get one of those Monsta rads though or two for the next build.

[NaeKuh]

Nice pics! I am very interested in knowing how those fans do on a rad. If they perform better then a San Ace I am switching. If not I will remain where I am. Might get one of those Monsta rads though or two for the next build.

not possible.

look at the motor size difference between a tribewerk and a san ace.

first reaction to a new san ace owner is OMG the middle blade motor is HUGH.

[breathemetal]

This thing is just huge.

[Sadasius]

This thing is just huge.

:slap: Get your hand out of my pants!

:rofl:

Seriously though I wonder if the air is able to get through it okay without having hot spot within the middle of the rad.

[NaeKuh]

This thing is just huge.

my oracle is bigger.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/aigomorla/IMG_0119.jpg

and its by fesser / san ace :rofl:

[Sadasius]

Damn I am sure that can get your water pretty damn close to ambient temps! :shocked:

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

:slap: Get your hand out of my pants!

:rofl:

Seriously though I wonder if the air is able to get through it okay without having hot spot within the middle of the rad.

I have 3 koolance 140mm fans blowing through them there is no issue at all...will post pics when I can, but all that rubbage about the rad. being to thick so that air can not blow through is FALSE!!! it has no issueing blowing 97cfm/fan through this rad I can lower my cfm with my throttle and still feel the wind blow through it. In fact you can smell the new radiator smell when you blow your fan through it....not thats sick or anything :rolleyes::D

[Sadasius]

Definitely good to know. So I am sure push/pull on this then is a breeze...Thanks so much! I think I will definitely use this in my next build.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

Jock you have no idea how much air is going through that rad whatsoever... and considering that a thinner rad can cut CFM by 30% or more I would say youve got a lot less air than you think going through that rad.

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

Jock you have no idea how much air is going through that rad whatsoever... and considering that a thinner rad can cut CFM by 30% or more I would say youve got a lot less air than you think going through that rad.

if the air can blow my wifes hair while she is standing 2ft away im fine by that I consider that enough air to going, "through" the radiator. I know sniipe you have your grudges against feser, but please be more opened minded about it maybe feser can send you a test radiator if you were up to it :D
just did a silly thing early this morning while doing my modifications to my case to try to fit the monsta was I put two fans in a series (stacked) it blew more air...yah yah yah martin tested it so I had to try an informal test too....lol

[Sadasius]

What fans are you using?

[JOCKTHEGLIDE]

What fans are you using?

koolance 140mm 97cfm.....
http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?product_id=688

just an idea....
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc320/shift4knights/computer%20virgin/100_7726.jpg
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc320/shift4knights/computer%20virgin/100_7727.jpg
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc320/shift4knights/computer%20virgin/100_7729.jpg

[DemonEyez]

Which pump ( or pumps in series ) would be best use with a TFC Monsta rad + DTek Fusion v1 block + Mips MosFet block + Mips NB block + Swiftech MCW60 + Swiftech MCW60 ?

At the moment I'm running two Eheim 1048 pumps in series but I'm thinking of upgrading those two also.

[bundymania]

http://www.abload.de/img/promo-2icxy.jpg

http://www.abload.de/img/promo-3ejdm.jpg

:D

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

I said this in the other thread but let me be more clear: Is TFC retarded??? I know people in ESL who speak better english than that.... :rofl:

[NaeKuh]

:D

I WANT THAT TOP ONE!!!

does it come with godzilla?

[DemonEyez]

This thing is just huge.

got that right :)

Just got my Monsta rad today. It barely fits in my Coolermaster Stacker.

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2009/05/17/1242517553-030.jpg

Fans are 140mm Sharkoon 1500rpm, which will be connected to a 5v-12 fan controller.
Still waiting for some other parts te be delivered and I can continue building my new rig. I'm using two Stackers next to each other. One with all the WC parts in it and one for all the system parts.

[elfo_bcn]

Another Monsta Review:

http://www.hardexhaust.es/reviews/Tfc_Xchanger_Monsta_Extreme_Radiator_420_360.html

[Zehnsucht]

Another Monsta Review:

http://www.hardexhaust.es/reviews/Tfc_Xchanger_Monsta_Extreme_Radiator_420_360.html

So um... looking at this graph

http://www.hardexhaust.es/reviews/images/Tfc_Xchanger_Monsta_031.jpg

the temperatures haven't stabilized at the end of the run? And what's going on with the GPU temperatures the last four minutes?

[Martinm210]

Here is a bablefish translation:
http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hardexhaust.es%2Freviews%2F Tfc_Xchanger_Monsta_Extreme_Radiator_420_360.html&lp=es_en&btnTrUrl=Translate

They did a really awesome job on the pictures, but I didn't see any comparative thermal testing at all. Just one 20minute test with that radiator with one heat load and one fan RPM level..

The did one CFM comparison to the GTS, but they didn't run any thermal test comparisons. Oh well, great photos though!