Nanofluid: Dual Core Tests and Review

[skinnee]

To start, I would like the say thanks to the XtremeSystems World Community Grid Team (specifically, Hicks and litteowl) for getting me involved in this test. In addition, a big thank you to relttem and his business partner for supplying me with the fluid to test, without the fluid...no test!

Intro
There is not a lot know about this mysterious white fluid known as Nanofluid, what I do know is that there are nano sized particles in the fluid that give this fluid the ability to gather and store heat with the ability to release that heat in a highly efficient manner.

I can dispel some rumors I saw posted though. The mysterious particles are not aluminum. So no, the fluid will not cause corrosion or presents a corroding substance into your loop.

With that as a precursor to the testing and review, here is the eye candy you all so eagerly desire.

Caution, this is not Hydrogen Peroxide, just the vessel that I received the fluid in through USPS.
http://www.skinneelabs.com/assets/images/Nanofluid/s_Nano_dualcore_bottle.png (http://www.skinneelabs.com/assets/images/Nanofluid/Nano_dualcore_bottle.png)

The fluid has an oddly familiar smell to it, reminded me of the smell of plaster. Here is how the fluid looks poured into small dish.
http://www.skinneelabs.com/assets/images/Nanofluid/s_Nano_dualcore_fluid.png (http://www.skinneelabs.com/assets/images/Nanofluid/Nano_dualcore_fluid.png)

No UV reactive properties, I was surprised by that, I figured it would be like white lettering on a shirt under UV. Nevertheless, absolutely no UV reaction.

Here is the test bench setup for this test with the loop filled with Nanofluid.
http://www.skinneelabs.com/assets/images/Nanofluid/s_Nano_dualcore_loop.png (http://www.skinneelabs.com/assets/images/Nanofluid/Nano_dualcore_loop.png)

Test Setup and Methodology
Test Specifications are detailed with each of the data tables and graphs. Each and all tests was performed using Prime95 version 25.7 using In-place large FFTs for a 15 minute warm-up period with a logged test cycle of 60 minutes following the warm-up period. Ambient temperatures are averaged between two different sensors. After each test, a 30-minute idle period was observed before starting the next test.

High Flow: Very close, averaged temps are 0.35ºC and 0.33ºC difference for a 60 minute load cycle with Nanofluid having a 1ºC advantage on max core temps for the test cycle.
http://www.skinneelabs.com/assets/images/Nanofluid/Nano_dualcore_graph-highflow.png

Medium Flow: Medium flow produced strikingly similar results to High flow, Nanofluid has a lower Max Core Temp by 1ºC, and the difference between average temps shrinks to 0.24ºC and 0.25ºC. At this point, it is looking like a real duel.
http://www.skinneelabs.com/assets/images/Nanofluid/Nano_dualcore_graph-mediumflow.png

Low Flow: High heat loads is where the Nanofluid really starts to outpace Distilled. Nanofluid still grabbed the lower Max temp by 1ºC, but the average temps were what really stood out, Nanofluid has a 1.39ºC and 1.42ºC advantage in average temp and a 2ºC minimum temp advantage.
http://www.skinneelabs.com/assets/images/Nanofluid/Nano_dualcore_graph-lowflow.png

Closing thoughts
The low flow tests really makes me eager to put the fluid through a much longer and more rigorous set of test runs with a Quad due to the heat load being higher from a Quad versus that of a Dual, I have a feeling this is where Nanofluid will pull away from Distilled and show a bigger margin. I also plan to do multiple runs of the same test settings with a quad, this will allow me to see if there is any major deviation from run to run for the same test. This is speculation at this point, but a somewhat educated speculation.

For those of you interested in purchasing Nanofluid, I cannot help you there, as to my knowledge this is only a prototype and is not ready for sale to the masses.

This is the first official test I have performed on the test bench, with many more to follow. Equipment has already been added, changed out and modifications made to the bench. A couple things that have not changed are the BlueAqua Custom Series V2 Test Bench (Thanks BlueAqua!), and the CrystalFontz CFA-635.

In closing, I would again like the thank relttem and his business partner for the opportunity to test and report on their creation. Thanks for reviewing the Nanofluid Dual Core test results and review.

[Dangals]

:clap::clap::clap:

Well done mate - great review and nice pics!

Looking forward to some more info on this mysterious fluid :up:

[AndrewZorn]

Hopefully it will be a bigger difference for a Quad... doesn't look worth it now. How much would it cost for a loop's worth?

It looks like milk.

[HESmelaugh]

I really like the look of this fluid! And I'm also looking forward to more tests. Great work, skinnee!

[Martinm210]

Excellent work and very interesting!! Thanks for putting in all the time to check it out, just don't forget about it in that bottle and start swabbing a wound or something...:eek:
It does look cool in the tubing.

[BlueAqua]

Great looking setup! :up:

I had the opportunity to see some of this in person, and I'm impressed. I would love to try some nanofluid over a period of time and determine how it performs long term. I wonder how it would do in a loop with multiple components with a high heat load.

I really look forward in more tests from you Skinnee. If you need a hand, just let me know. :)

[dopestuff]

firstly great review :up:

and this could help for making even quieter systems whitout to much performance loss (a low slow pump is even prefered so..)

and last but nog least does it effect components over time (corrode coppers degrade hoses) and does anything grow in it??

[The-Fox]

Nice review skinnee,
The difference is still too small to justify the use of it, if you can get it.
We still don't know how it will behave and what are the consequences of using it in a loop for a long period of time.

Retesting with a Quad will be nice, I agree.

[Kibbler]

Awesome review man, very clear and direct presentation. Easily understood even for an idiot like me :)

Based on your results I'm not seeing see a viable niche for nanofluid. What I mean is that...the point (temp) at which nanofluid gains a significant advantage over distilled, is also the same point at which you should re-consider your heat load and cooling capacity.

Very interesting to see if there's a future for this tech.

[relttem]

interestingly also is that the ambient temps were actually hotter (not by much) during the nanofluid tests, but the nanofluid was still cooler. Also, notice that the temperature drop across the radiators for the nanofluid was lower. Again, this goes back to the nanofluid having a higher convective heat transfer coefficient, h. The balancing equation Q=hA(T2-T1) shows that when h goes up (A and Q are constant) (T2-T1) can be smaller. Which means that the radiator has more available performance. This also ties into the earlier post about a quieter system by reducing pump speed. Which Skinner showed, and we are also looking into this further.

thanks

[Spawne32]

has anyone tried using deuterium as fluid?

[voigts]

Thank you for the excellent testing.

Since however this is just a prototype, the retail cost of this is unknown at this point. If there ends up only being a 1c or so difference as with the current test, for me it is going to be hard to justify the cost vs. .75c a gallon distilled water.

It does look like milk. Are you sure this isn't just milk that came from some nuclear radiated cow?

[relttem]

We are, more or less, targeting the people who do some serious overclocking - hopefully, 123Bob's test will show some significant results. And, as you mentioned, this is a prototype, so some tweaking might be necessary. We are already working on that. Finally, you have to admit that when someone asks what kind of liquid you have in your system 'nanofluid' sounds a lot better than 'distilled water'..:D

[nikhsub1]

First let me say that I know how much work goes into this, so thanks for your time but I have a few issues that maybe you can answer. First, why are you using the MAX value to determine which fluid is better? Average is what you should be looking at, and 2 of the 3 tests distilled performed better when looked at average. Second, what are the coolant temps? Without knowing the coolant temps of each liquid, the test is useless... sorry to be a stick in the mud, but we need more info to make a proper determination.

[relttem]

First let me say that I know how much work goes into this, so thanks for your time but I have a few issues that maybe you can answer. First, why are you using the MAX value to determine which fluid is better? Average is what you should be looking at, and 2 of the 3 tests distilled performed better when looked at average. Second, what are the coolant temps? Without knowing the coolant temps of each liquid, the test is useless... sorry to be a stick in the mud, but we need more info to make a proper determination.

on the other forum, 123Bob is going to record the coolant temps. Also, when looking at the numbers you have to look at all the numbers. If you are going to do an entire balance on the system, the radiator intake/exhaust temps will come into play. Of the 9 intake temps 8 were hotter on the nanofluid tests, but the deltaT across the radiator was lower on all the tests (if you average the three deltaTs for each test). You can crunch thru the numbers and get a good approximate coolant temp because the system will be in steady-state. If it wasn't it would either continue to get hotter or colder. And, the heat removed by the radiator is going to be close to the heat picked up by the coolant as it passes over all the components. Of course, you have residual losses thru the tubing etc, so it won't be exactly equal.

But, you are correct in that the coolant temps will tell a lot.

[nikhsub1]

on the other forum, 123Bob is going to record the coolant temps. Also, when looking at the numbers you have to look at all the numbers. If you are going to do an entire balance on the system, the radiator intake/exhaust temps will come into play. Of the 9 intake temps 8 were hotter on the nanofluid tests, but the deltaT across the radiator was lower on all the tests (if you average the three deltaTs for each test). You can crunch thru the numbers and get a good approximate coolant temp because the system will be in steady-state. If it wasn't it would either continue to get hotter or colder. And, the heat removed by the radiator is going to be close to the heat picked up by the coolant as it passes over all the components. Of course, you have residual losses thru the tubing etc, so it won't be exactly equal.

But, you are correct in that the coolant temps will tell a lot.
How many users here do you think will 'extrapolate' ?? LMFAO. Air temps are important, this is why I didn't mention them, if they were omitted I would have. Maybe this nanofluid has some physics warping abilities that can generate black holes and such, however we would never know this WITHOUT THE COOLANT TEMPS :D

[relttem]

How many users here do you think will 'extrapolate' ?? LMFAO. Air temps are important, this is why I didn't mention them, if they were omitted I would have. Maybe this nanofluid has some physics warping abilities that can generate black holes and such, however we would never know this WITHOUT THE COOLANT TEMPS :D

I agree with that.. I am not even extrapolating all that out..it is a big hassle. I will wait for 123Bob..

[nikhsub1]

I agree with that.. I am not even extrapolating all that out..it is a big hassle. I will wait for 123Bob..
But that still won't help THIS test...

[relttem]

But that still won't help THIS test...

my non-extrapolating won't help? 123Bob is going to insert thermocouples in the fluid before and after the radiator. That will give an idea of how much heat the nanofluid is picking up, and it will be compared to distilled water. Isnt that what you were after?

[BiFfMaN]

Well this stuff looks interesting to say the least.

But if this fluid requires less service then Distilled does ( evaporation, algae and stained tubes) then it might prove usefull to all.

Especially myself since i travel alot and i hate coming home to a Overclocked Petri dish.

[NaeKuh]

skinee very nice :up:

however word of caution.

That fluid is conductive. And not slightly, i mean bling bling.

So make sure you dont spill anywhere on your hardware or your gonna be asking for it.

[Pellepel]

What is the temp of Rad 1 2 3 intake/exhaust etc...air? Sorry for the nubbish question.

At first I thought it was temp measurement, but since you guys guys are arguing over temp of the water, then it must not be it...

Overall nice testing and presentation Skinee, glad to see a local busting out the science of lq cooling. (I think that's Martin's line) ;):p:

[bigslappy]

Great work ,great post , clear & concise .. look forward to seeing more testing Keep it up !!

[relttem]

We are having it checked to see if there is any microbial growth in it. For you non-biology people, it really doesn't take much for algae to get going. So far, we have seen NO growth in our samples. Some of which have been sitting on the shelf for months. They are sealed though. We are going to leave some in an open container to see if that has any effect. Outside of that, there is nothing in the nanofluid to break down. The only thing to worry about would be evaporation, but that would only be the liquid. So, you can just top it off with DI water. The nanoparticles can't escape due to evaporation. I have had nanofluid in my system since June with no problems. I don't do any serious overclocking, but it has been stable. I have NOT turned my system off though. Even when I go out of town for a week I leave the system running.
If we do have microbial growth we are going to have an additive added that will prevent that.

[Eddie3dfx]

Skinee, thank you for taking the time to do this.
Excellent work.
Do you have to use gloves with the nanofluid?

[Quad-Damage]

Distilled H20 + PT Nuke :) $6 for a whole loop

How much would this run?

[skinnee]

Hopefully I can cover all the questions, if I missed yours kindly point me to your post or ask the question again.

Thank you all for viewing and continuing the conversation after the review. The whole reason I entered the testing arena was to provide data to the community and the follow-on discussions that result. It is through the community discussions that my testing will continue to improve, having hundreds of extra eyes over the testing is the best thing I can ask for. Again, thank you all for pointing out the little things.

Now, to the Q/A portion of the program. :D

Fluid sensors will be part of the logged temps on the Quad testing. I apologize for not having those ready and available for this test run. However, the stable Ambients (averaged between two sensors) and the Radiator Intake and Exhaust do give an indication as to the heat load being dissipated. I agree it does not clearly point out the Delta T and this would have to be extrapolated from the data collected.

As for pricing and costs, I do not have that information and I cannot even being to speculate, we will all have to wait and see.

The Hydrogen Peroxide bottle...yeah we almost had a little mix-up. My wife had a friend over who had a cut and needed to clean it. Her friend said, "oh you have Hydrogen Peroxide...great". Apparently my wife screamed across the room not to use it. She went and looked at the bottle and realized it wasn't the nanofluid bottle...true story! :rofl:

Nikhsub, please note that I am not using Max Core Temp value as the determining factor. Average temps are the important numbers as you pointed out. The text was just a narrative to the graph, Min., Avg. and Max. temps were noted and presented. And yes, fluid temps will be part of the Quad test session.

My response to the hope that 123bob's testing would show a significant difference where the tests I peformed do not show a large margin one way or the other. I do not see how that is really possible unless there was a recipe change to the fluid that 123bob recieved from what I did. His test numbers will be very close to mine, he can even use the same test steps I did. That is why I document and present that information, so others can repeat the same tests and compare data. This is the science part of testing, repeatability.

Stained tubes...I can say that there was no tube staining in the time that nanofluid was running in the loop. I did use roughly half a gallon of distilled to flush the loop after draining to remove all nanofluid before running the distilled tests. This was not a long enough time to actually prove or disprove tube staining though.

The Rad Intake/Exhaust 1,2,3 are temp probes on the intake side and exhaust side of the rad measuring air temperature. I have to add more probes now that I have moved up to a 4 fan rad versus a 3 fan and the inclusion of fluid sensors.

Gloves, I did not wear gloves when handling the fluid. I made sure to wash my hands after filling and draining the loop.

Finally, keep the discussion going. I appreciate all of the little things you all have pointed out and I will try to include all recommendations in further testing. :up:

[SiGfever]

skinnee, great work and very well presented. I look forward to more testing on guads.

[leuler]

It appears that if you want to use this particular solution of nanofluid in
a high flow situation, you need to cut it with distilled water. Without
knowing the percent volume of the nanoparticles in the solution, it seems
that there is too high of a concentration of nanoparticles, making the
solution too viscous.

Low flow - thermal conductivity of fluid matters alot

High flow - high viscousity reduces turbulence. The negative effect of that
to heat transfer outweighs the positive effect of higher thermal
conductivity

Depending on the flow, there is an optimal concentration for the
nanoparticles.

[NaeKuh]

hey skinee can u run the coolant though a multimeter to see just how conductive it is?

If its not that badly conductive as i think it is, i may want to try it on my gpu loop.

[aspire.comptech]

has anyone tried using deuterium as fluid?

What about unobtainium?

[BlueAqua]

It appears that if you want to use this particular solution of nanofluid in
a high flow situation, you need to cut it with distilled water. Without
knowing the percent volume of the nanoparticles in the solution, it seems
that there is too high of a concentration of nanoparticles, making the
solution too viscous.

Low flow - thermal conductivity of fluid matters alot

High flow - high viscousity reduces turbulence. The negative effect of that
to heat transfer outweighs the positive effect of higher thermal
conductivity

Depending on the flow, there is an optimal concentration for the
nanoparticles.

The nanofluid has about the same viscosity has water does. It's a bit more viscous but almost like "1/2% milk."

[relttem]

If you all send me a PM with your email address I can send you our research paper. It goes over our tests and results without divulging too much info.

[BlueAqua]

Thanks relttem for the pdf, it was really informative about nanofluids and the scientific reasoning behind them.

Now where can I get some? ;)

[cegras]

Interesting stuff.

Aluminium oxide nanoparticles?

[skinnee]

hey skinee can u run the coolant though a multimeter to see just how conductive it is?

If its not that badly conductive as i think it is, i may want to try it on my gpu loop.

Yup...I will let you know.

[NaeKuh]

If you all send me a PM with your email address I can send you our research paper. It goes over our tests and results without divulging too much info.

just how conductive is it.

Thats all i want to know.

Will it fry something if it leaks a little bit? or will i be safe from a small tiny leak.

Its the small leaks that i worry about. Sometimes when a block cracks, or leaks, you dont see it right away. Infact you sometimes dont even notice it until you see your screws are all rusted. :X

Oh and one last test please. If that thing is really that good, whats the freezing point on and can you also mix a tiny bit with antifreeze and see if that hinders or changes the viscosity in it at all. Im actually worrying about the nanoparticles clumping up in the presence of antifreeze.

I may want to throw it on my chiller since a heavier fluid would hold the coldness longer.

[YukonTrooper]

I really like the white liquid. Would be awesome to have a totally black and white build.

[relttem]

just how conductive is it.

Thats all i want to know.

That is being tested on here..stay tuned


Will it fry something if it leaks a little bit? or will i be safe from a small tiny leak.

Its the small leaks that i worry about. Sometimes when a block cracks, or leaks, you dont see it right away. Infact you sometimes dont even notice it until you see your screws are all rusted. :X

It will do no more harm than water. Plus, as noted above, you can see it easier than water when it leaks.


Oh and one last test please. If that thing is really that good, whats the freezing point on and can you also mix a tiny bit with antifreeze and see if that hinders or changes the viscosity in it at all. Im actually worrying about the nanoparticles clumping up in the presence of antifreeze.

I may want to throw it on my chiller since a heavier fluid would hold the coldness longer.

why do you want to put antifreeze in it? It doesn't need any antifreeze. The nanoparticles have a surfactant that prevents them from clumping. Its freezing point is the same as water.

[cegras]

Yeah, if you add any sort of salt or particle to the water it should damp the freezing point. As evidenced by the phase diagram.

[leuler]

Yeah, if you add any sort of salt or particle to the water it should damp the freezing point. As evidenced by the phase diagram.

Soluble salts lower the freezing point of water due to bonds formed between
the ions and the water molecules. These bonds affect the formation of
ice crystals.

The nanofluid is a colloid, not a solution. The nanoparticles are suspended
in the water and minimally interact with the water molecules. Doesn't really
affect the freezing point.

[relttem]

Plus, anytime you go below dew point you are going to have all kinds of condensation issues. That is a whole can of worms that you do not want to open - been there/done that.

[leuler]

just how conductive is it.

Thats all i want to know.

Will it fry something if it leaks a little bit? or will i be safe from a small tiny leak.

Its the small leaks that i worry about. Sometimes when a block cracks, or leaks, you dont see it right away. Infact you sometimes dont even notice it until you see your screws are all rusted. :X

Oh and one last test please. If that thing is really that good, whats the freezing point on and can you also mix a tiny bit with antifreeze and see if that hinders or changes the viscosity in it at all. Im actually worrying about the nanoparticles clumping up in the presence of antifreeze.

I may want to throw it on my chiller since a heavier fluid would hold the coldness longer.

You can add antifreeze to it, and would need to if you use it in your chiller.
The nanoparticles won't clump up due to the antifreeze. Also, the added
viscosity of the water/antifreeze mixture would help keep the nanoparticles
suspended, not that the extra help is needed (relttem said that the flow
keeps them suspended).

[relttem]

flow keeps them suspended..surfactant keeps them from bonding to each other.

[cegras]

Soluble salts lower the freezing point of water due to bonds formed between
the ions and the water molecules. These bonds affect the formation of
ice crystals.

The nanofluid is a colloid, not a solution. The nanoparticles are suspended
in the water and minimally interact with the water molecules. Doesn't really
affect the freezing point.

I need to learn more : (

[leuler]

Thanks for sending me the research paper. I recognized several of the
papers cited in your paper.

I have plenty of questions for you. However, I don't think you will want to
divulge the answers. So, good luck. Hope everything pans out.

[relttem]

I can tell you anything but the recipe'...:) - almost anything.

[cegras]

I wouldn't mind having a stab at the paper myself, if you don't mind.

[relttem]

If you all send me a PM with your email address I can send you our research paper. It goes over our tests and results without divulging too much info.

:)..

[leuler]

I need to learn more : (

Don't sweat it ;)

Everybody could use a little more learning. I know I do.
My previous post was partially wrong. The bonds do not directly affect
the formation of ice crystals. Look at what I found:

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/solutions/faq/why-salt-melts-ice.shtml

[skinnee]

The paper is quite good and gives a lot of background information on nanoparticles and the affects on heat transfer. The things that are difficult to calculate are exactly what the Reynolds number for a typical CPU loop, CPU, NB loop or CPU, NB, GPU loop. My estimated calculations put it somewhere around 6000-7000. If you follow the curve of the test data provided in the paper, we would see a potential 1-3% performance gain using nanofluid. This actually lines up with the test data I collected.

It will be interesting to see if the Quad tests result in roughly the same performance percentage gain.

[Kayin]

Anywhere I can get this from now? I'd love to run it in Mithril...

Black, white and G48 blue would be so badass...

[123bob]

First off, to skinnee, nice post. I'll have to graph now, in order to match your data format....:rofl:


Whoa ! , to the above posts, where I'm mentioned folks....

Like a few of you, I approached this with some healthy skepticism myself. However, how can we march forward without trying new stuff? I would put it to the nay-sayer's and the overly enthusiastic folks on this thread, wait and watch. Let the science prove it to be valid, or not.

I am doing some very detailed testing since I'm a 100% dedicated cruncher. What does that mean? I run full bore, 24/7/365 with the 16 quads on my farm. 9 of those Quads are water cooled. One of them is my main rig, a QX6700 B3, which I'm testing on. This test protocol is going to take a few days since I'm allowing plenty of time for thermal equilibrium to occur before taking measurements. (minimum of 2 hours each.)

I am aware of the whole fluid temp vs ambient temp vs heat dump of a rad, vs, etc, etc. I think my resulting test protocol will prove that. I have the thing instrumented as far as I can go, with some rather high tier gear.

It is of great interest to me if I can achieve higher average clock using nanofluid rather than distilled. That is the ultimate claim of this product. That it will allow higher stable clocks than just water. We'll see....The test protocol is designed for this particular aspect of the potential product.

Yes, I realize the end price of the product needs to be justified, rather than adding another quad worth of hardware to my farm, but so far, my initial tests dovetail Skinnee's results. We don't know the price of this stuff yet, and I only fully formulated a test plan a couple of days ago, so, let's please not get ahead of ourselves.....

My setup and test results will be detailed in the WCG section, which is my home part of the forum. I will add those results to this thread here, so we all have it.

Under heavy heat load, (and I mean really heavy 24/7 stuff) this is showing some improvement. What I want is more overall clock for that same 24/7 requirement.

(Shameless advertisement...:rofl:) As a side note, a lot has been given to how you load. I would put it to all of you here that crunching BOINC with us at WCG is the max stability test you will ever see. Put that cruncher on, helping the team out, and watch it run for weeks.... This ain't benching, which is also a sport I respect. Why? Because some of our best clocked machines on WCG are owned by good benchers. Come on over, hang out, and perhaps join the team.:up: Link below.

@ Naekuh, I did the "stick the meter in the fluid" test to measure it's relative conductivity to pure straight distilled water. I find it to be no more (or less) conductive than the distilled. I also detailed a drying test I did on the WCG post I made. I was concerned that this might be like latex paint. It was not. I dried a puddle in the bottom of an empty beer can which dried looking a whole lot like diluted latex. I took a damp rag to it and it wiped right out. So, no permanent issue noted in screwing up blocks or reservoirs.

The smell, that's got me puzzled. As noted by skinnee, it is very familiar. He suggested plaster, I suggested latex paint mixed with some sort of perfume. Of course, I could put some through chemical analysis, but that would not be in keeping with the proprietary nature of the product.....

@reltemp, I did ask this before on the composition. I can dump it down the drain without killing all the fish in the river, right? Also, if my results on the single machine prove out well, I will need another 5 liters to fill my mass cooler and get the other 8 quads. ;) Test results on that to follow too...:up:

Regards,
Bob

[123bob]

Skinee, thank you for taking the time to do this.
Excellent work.
Do you have to use gloves with the nanofluid?

Double post, sue me. This is an important point.

I did not use gloves of any kind. It does feel somewhat sticky as it dries, hence my concern and the execution of the drying test detailed in my prior post.

However, I would not taste test this since I don't quite know what's in it. Perhaps with some Brandy, it might not be bad....:rofl:

Regards,
Bob

[123bob]

My response to the hope that 123bob's testing would show a significant difference where the tests I peformed do not show a large margin one way or the other. I do not see how that is really possible unless there was a recipe change to the fluid that 123bob recieved from what I did. His test numbers will be very close to mine, he can even use the same test steps I did. That is why I document and present that information, so others can repeat the same tests and compare data. This is the science part of testing, repeatability.



OK probably triple posting now. Old age, you know....

Amen brother. Science counts. I'll let my ultimate results speak for itself. :up: Opinions, well we all have them....:rolleyes: So far, our results are in lock step. It is encouraging that you can repeat my result, and I can repeat yours....I think we have the same formulation of the stuff, only reltemp can confirm that.

Regards,
Bob

[skinnee]

OK probably triple posting now. Old age, you know....

Amen brother. Science counts. I'll let my ultimate results speak for itself. :up: Opinions, well we all have them....:rolleyes: So far, our results are in lock step. It is encouraging that you can repeat my result, and I can repeat yours....I think we have the same formulation of the stuff, only reltemp can confirm that.

Regards,
Bob

:up:

Following your posts in the WCG section, we're spot on. Slightly different test plans, but we're achieving near the same results. Its a good check and balance for both of us.

[iandh]

Regardless of the final breakdown of all the details, any fluid that drops max load temps (higher ability to absorb instantaneous temp spikes) could have value to OC'ers, regardless of whatever the average temps work out to be.

Reasoning is, that I've had chips where a 1-2C drop in load means the difference between stable and doesn't even boot. I remember I had an X2 3800+ that would run NOT run stable if load temp exceeded 55C, regardless of what the speed/voltage settings were.

[relttem]

Ah...the Reynolds Number.

Skinnee sent me a PM about this, and I thought it would be a good thing for all of you to know..for those of you that don't that is. The Reynolds Number, named after Osborne Reynolds, is a non-dimensional number that is very important in fluid dynamics. I am sure Wiki has a good write up about it, so I won't go into the details of it. In heat transfer you have a few non-dimensional numbers that you commonly use with the Nusselt number probably being the most common. The Nusselt number, Nu, is related to the Reynolds Number, Re by the equation:
Nu = X*Re^y*Pr^z

Pr = prandtl number
X, y, z = constants depending on fluid and flow.

In the paper I have been sending out, we were using the LOCAL Reynolds number. This is a measure of the Re at a specific location. The equation for Re is:

Re = (rho*V*D)/mu

rho - density
V - velocity
D - diameter
mu - viscosity

also,

Re = (4*mdot)/(mu*pi*D)
mdot - mass flow rate

You have to make sure you are using the same system of units - all your units should cancel out. Thus, the non-dimensional. There is a good website, onlineconversion.com that will let you change gpm to kg/s etc.

local Re is

Rex = (rho*V*X)/mu

X is the distance you are measuring the Re

So, if you wanted to compute the Re of your system you need to know a few things, and then crunch through some equations. First you have to know the gpm your pump puts out. Then, go to onlineconversion.com and convert that to kg/s. Next you have to know the diameter of your tube..preferably in meters...you can use the same website to convert inches to meters if you are unsure of how to do it. Now, you can get your Re using the equation above. You'll have to find the dynamic viscosity and density for water at your systems temp, but you can get that online. With those numbers you can get a very close estimate of the fluid velocity using

mdot = rho*V*A
A - area (pi*D^2)/4

solve that for V

Those are the V and Re for your Tube. Now, you have to move to your water block. You would have to know the dimensions of the flow channels in the water block, and if there is branching flow etc to accurately calculate the Re. It gets a little tricky, but you can make some general assumptions and get a reasonable estimate of your Re in the block. Knowing the Re you can use the graphs to get an estimate of the convective coefficient, h. Then, you can determine how much heat is being removed using

Q=h*A*(T2-T1)

That will give you a ballpark number since there is a lot more going on that just that.

thanks...I will be here all week.

[NaeKuh]

okey so who do i need to bribe to get a sample of this stuff to try on my gpu loop? :rofl:

[TI66ER]

For anyone interested,i got this

http://img.techpowerup.org/081023/Untitled.jpg

From this pdf file

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/11048-iehYjE/webviewable/11048.pdf

It is pretty interesting.

[relttem]

If you look at the results from Skinnee, you can see that at the slower pump speed is when the temp difference was most pronounced. Something that that article points to also is that you can also use a smaller radiator due to the increased thermal characteristics of the nanofluid (less fans blowing), which makes the whole system smaller and quieter.

[NaeKuh]

so increase pumping power and radiator capacity allows you to unlock the fluid even more?

or it just works with lower pump capacity?

And the risk of corrosion lets say if you did mix metals or is it safe in an all alu loop?

[Kayin]

Aside from the increased performance, it's easier to pump too?

Seriously, I need some of this stuff.

[relttem]

the density change is negligible, so the pumping power doesn't change. We looked into this. It will work fine with an all aluminum set-up. I think I mentioned, maybe in the WCG section, that your heat transfer at the block is based on this:

Q = h*A*(T2-T1)

Q is the power input..this will vary depending on what you are doing on the computer.
A is the area of the block..this is constant.
T2-T1 is the fluid temp difference between the exit of the block and the entrance.
h is the convective coefficient, which is higher for nanofluid than it is for water - that is what we found in our research, and other research projects have found the same thing.
So, straight up, based on the Q-equation, if h increases and A and (T2-T1) are constant. Then Q has to increase to balance the equation, which means you can dump more heat into the nanofluid.
If you look at the equations above, you have Nu = XRe^aPr^b, Pr is going to be pretty constant. If you increase Re your Nu will go up. Nu= (h*D)/k. If Nu goes up then h has to go up, because D(diameter) is constant, k(thermal conductivity of nanofluid) is constant - h has to change to balance. That is what that paper/quote above about pump power is talking about. But, your pressure drop is going to increase the faster you pump..so much that you might have leaks and other issues. It is a study. You have to find where everything can reach its highest point without any failures. And, it is a trade-off..bigger pumps, larger radiators, more fans = $$ and noise.

[NaeKuh]

how does that have anything to do with corrosion? :rofl:

if the nano particles are a form of Cu+ suspended, it would eat into the ALU and hence the coolant would cause corrosion.

Im trying to work out all the fine points on your coolant b4 i give it a test. So sorry if i sound a bit curious.

What got me thinkn this is how it reacts to copper, it seems the solution is safe and has no effect on copper, however how would the solution handle alu? Or even better, how would it handle a mixed loop scenario since we still cant get people to NOT USE ALU.

Once again sorry if i sound a bit curious, im really interested in your solution.

[TI66ER]

On google i found a site that say the nanofluid they use/have/make is copper particles in the fluid which is fine if you have an all copper loop.

[relttem]

During our tests we were flowing the nanofluid over a heated copper plate with no adverse effects. It will not harm aluminum either.

[rosco]

The nanofluid dispersion was purchased to Nanophase according a previous post, and according to their products and the white color, this stuff should be composed of aluminum oxide, the most classical nanofluid, or zinc oxyde (you talk about it in your paper, you probably forgot to erase some info...). They have tin oxyde too, that gives a white color, but I doubt about its use here. Hence, no problem of corrosion because nanoparticles are already in an oxidized form.

[Hondacity]

is this rohs approved?

[NaeKuh]

Hence, no problem of corrosion because nanoparticles are already in an oxidized form.

ahhh that is a very good explaination.

thanks.

[rosco]

Only applies if they're made of a metal oxyde (can't oxidize more given the conditions), not a pure metal obviously. A nanofluid made with pure metal nanoparticles needs special methods to avoid oxidization during the process using a single step method especially.

[Boogerlad]

will it be possible for it to be in different colours? seems promising. Better performance, bling, and no need for a silver bar to prevent algae! Does it have any anticorrosive properties?

[relttem]

we are going to leave the coloring up to the people for now - it would be tough to provide certain colors for everyone. We will probably get some of the dye you can buy and add it to it and see what happens - we don't think anything negative will happen. We originally were going to make it fluorescent blue.

Anti-corrosive? does it prevent corrosion? it doesn't corrode plastic or your pump, block etc. Over a long LONG period of time, like 10 years you might see something, but that could be due to all kinds of things outside of the nanofluid.

[TNTSunshine]

For these conditions, is the 1 to 2 degrees difference statistically significant? If so, with what confidence interval?

And you still wouldn't want this stuff in a mix Al/Cu loop. You'd still get corrosion, unless you had an all Al loop, but then that wouldn't be mixed.

[Jimmer411]

Distilled H20 + PT Nuke :) $6 for a whole loop

How much would this run?





Tapwater and prestone, totals about 25 cents per loop tops. :welcome:

[relttem]

Tapwater + copper block = really bad

[relttem]

For these conditions, is the 1 to 2 degrees difference statistically significant? If so, with what confidence interval?

And you still wouldn't want this stuff in a mix Al/Cu loop. You'd still get corrosion, unless you had an all Al loop, but then that wouldn't be mixed.

Its tough to answer that question for me..maybe the testers can chime in. I can say that the research project we did for the Air Force contained so much data that any anomalies in the data would be filtered out due to the amount of data. Also, when performing an error analysis on the equations, devices used to for data collection etc, the error is a +/- sort of thing..thus, the bar that goes above and below your data point.
Also, that is why we sent out samples to numerous people for testing. But, so far all the tests are falling into the same realm, so I would lean towards pretty good confidence that the data is correct.

[skinnee]

For these conditions, is the 1 to 2 degrees difference statistically significant? If so, with what confidence interval?

And you still wouldn't want this stuff in a mix Al/Cu loop. You'd still get corrosion, unless you had an all Al loop, but then that wouldn't be mixed.

I did not have a standard deviation or confidence interval on this set of test runs, I only ran each test once. For the upcoming quad tests I will be able to provide metrics for both of those.

[T_Flight]

Can we get more info on where this fluid came from, and what type it is, and it's makeup? I've been doing a bit of research and it seems there are different types of this stuff, and they have different nanoparticles in them.

I'd also like to know where to obtain some, the cost, and whether I can find out what it's makeup is so I don't get anything with any Al particles in it. I won't put anything in my loop unless I know what's in it.

I'd like to try some of this, because I'm one of those scientiffic types, and this is just plain cool, but I want to be sure what I'm getting, and what it's makeup is before I attempt to run it through brand new hardware...very expensive high end brand new hardware I might add. :)

[TNTSunshine]

I did not have a standard deviation or confidence interval on this set of test runs, I only ran each test once. For the upcoming quad tests I will be able to provide metrics for both of those.

Ah, ok. I remember reading about how you were going to go onto the quad core and do more trials to hopefully see the greatest difference. Good luck! I know its a lot of work, but we all appreciate your hard work :)

As to what the powder's phase composition is, a quick XRD analysis of a dried powder sample shouldn't be too hard to do. Though, I guess I'd have to wait until some of this stuff became commercially available. I'm just wondering how different it is from typical colloidal polishing suspensions with alumina, or silica... maybe its even titania. Then lastly, I'm curious about the particle size and shape distribution and how "nano" it really is. SEM, though not ideal, should give some idea.

[relttem]

we can't say what is in it yet, but if we get to the point where we are selling it we will. I think it is the law that we have to anyway. Also, the guys on here that are doing the testing haven't reported on any adverse effects. I believe there has even been some leaks with nothing bad happening other than the leak.

[relttem]

we did all the SEM and TEM.. If I remember correctly, 40-60nm was our measured size.

[TNTSunshine]

I don't think it'd be a problem in the short run for PC users, unless they went way overboard. In general, when the stuff drys, you get the powder left behind, which can be a health hazard when its substantial enough, like in a metallography lab that isn't cleaned regularly. Though, this is only really an issue at sub 0.3 micron powder sizes, which is technically "nano." Again that's only in large quantities that it would be an issue, such as when you're mixing your own suspensions. So I'm not worried about that for PC use.

About the contents, yeah most companies have to disclose the main ingredients, but they don't typically give stuff like the particle size/shape distribution stuff, or quantitative compositional info on ingredients. Good stuff though.

[NaeKuh]

For these conditions, is the 1 to 2 degrees difference statistically significant? If so, with what confidence interval?


okey for those of you guys who are still having problems understanding this...

I have no idea about how the coolant works, but i know the theory behind the coolant so let me explain it to you guys.

The coolant is designed to be heavier, meaning the amount of molecules it can accept is widen.

Remember when we said water can only pick up X molecules and release it, its tweeking this statement by picking up X+1.

How does this help us? Because more can be picked up at one pass. However it comes with a big price.

First off i dont recomend injectors, would be VERY BAD as your sand blasting particles now, meaning yeah, your really sand blasting. -however i heard the particles are small about 1000 micron size, so im not too sure, either avoid high pressure injector systems.

The cost of the fluid is one, the second one is the viscosity, and how people are saying its a milky texture gives it away.

So the creators statement saying that it helps people with low flow is correct, however it will hurt you people with CRAP pumps. :rofl: Because the fluid is more viscous now. However i dont know what the exact gains would be on such a crap pump because remember X+1.

There... now that we understand the theory,

WHO DO I NEED TO KILL TO GET A SAMPLE. :rofl:

[TNTSunshine]

I wasn't asking "how it works." I was asking about the whether or not the difference between using straight DI vs the new fluid is statistically significant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_significance

Though there are other formulas for determining this than those given on the wiki page. And the answer is we don't know for the dual core b/c there was a sample size of 1 for each condition. But skinnee said he plans to do this for the quad core, so we'll see how it turns out for those conditions.

As a general rule though, one cannot simply say A is bigger than B, therefore A is better than B (or whatever). One has to first demonstrate that the difference between your two conditions is statistically significant, perhaps through ANOVA. I know that that's a pain in the arse, but I was really getting at that though means are nice, variance is just as important. Usually a standard deviation is just fine for characterizing the distribution of a sample population (assuming its normal).

[relttem]

good stuff..alright, the nanofluid is not any 'heavier' than water. Its density is the same, which is a measure of its weight. The viscosity doesn't change either..as best I can remember - I will find out today. The particles that you get in your tap water are many times larger than the nanoparticles. 1000 micron is 100,000 times as large as a nanoparticle. That is quite a difference. You won't see any sandblasting effects with our stuff. Now, if the concentration of nanoparticles were high enough that might be an issue. In the lab we were flowing the nanofluid past a copper plate at a Reynolds number of over 400,000..that is cruising. The copper plate was painted black because we were shining a laser on it, and the nanofluid did nothing to the paint. What is going on is the convective coefficient is increasing...as that increases, so does the heat transfer. Remember to PM if you want the paper..you can read all about it and get a better understanding. It even has SEM and TEM pics in it

[relttem]

this was posted in WCG section. I am not sure if he has compared it to a water system yet or not, so the point might be mute..still, its good news



EDIT: back OT, I just finished a loaded 8 hour run at 3.45g on this old B3 quad, with the nanofluid. I have to check my records, but I think this might be a new high for this machine....Still testing points.

[Kayin]

OK, but we keep asking-where can we get it?

[iandh]

I don't think it'd be a problem in the short run for PC users, unless they went way overboard. In general, when the stuff drys, you get the powder left behind, which can be a health hazard when its substantial enough, like in a metallography lab that isn't cleaned regularly. Though, this is only really an issue at sub 0.3 micron powder sizes, which is technically "nano." Again that's only in large quantities that it would be an issue, such as when you're mixing your own suspensions. So I'm not worried about that for PC use.

About the contents, yeah most companies have to disclose the main ingredients, but they don't typically give stuff like the particle size/shape distribution stuff, or quantitative compositional info on ingredients. Good stuff though.

FYI

OSHA says <10 micron = no-no

We have trouble buying sandblast grits lower than 12 micron from some places, we use for surface prep on some thin film coatings that we do.


Kinda silly to me because I live in the desert and on a windy day I am breathing in all kinds of stuff smaller than that, but whatever.

[T_Flight]

Where and How Can we get it to be more exact. I think this is the neatest stuff...very cool.

[cegras]

40-60nm = 0.040 - 0.060 microns.

You won't be noticing anything related to a 'thick' solution or a solution of suspended macroparticles. This is truly 'nano' fluid.

[relttem]

I am not sure, but I think OSHA is dealing with the powder form. Ours is already in the liquid, so it would be difficult to breathe. That is one thing that we are looking into now - Regulations. Since the nanotechnology is so new not many regulations are there yet.

[T_Flight]

3 times is a charm for me. I'm calling this unobtanium. I am assumning that no answer means that it's not available.

[BlueAqua]

3 times is a charm for me. I'm calling this unobtanium. I am assumning that no answer means that it's not available.

I don't think this was meant to be a retail release right now. I think we're pretty lucky to test it and at least gain some knowledge on it.

Take it for what it's worth, learn from it. If it comes to the market then great, if not, oh well.

[relttem]

I put this in WCG:

We are thinking about sending out one more sample for testing, but we want someone to run it thru an off-the-shelf WC system cooling a quad. If anyone on here has something like that send me a PM and let me know about your set-up. A few things need to be monitored (temps etc). I go thru them in the order received - if I receive any...

thanks.

[Deneteus]

What does this stuff do to a radiator after it has dried?

Did anybody finish the testing?

[Serpentarius]

so with these tests, does that means lower flow is better?

maybe becoz the vicosity comes play ... higher vicosity (thicker,richer) means more molecules per mol ..
the closer the molecules .. when the molecules vibrate (due to heat), the closer the molecules, the faster it heats up by banging each other
so the heat absorption is faster?????? it is something like this ??? i cant understand it


PS: you know that milky texture, it reminds me of the fluid being fortified with calcium .. lol

[relttem]

actually, with our tests the resulting increase was almost linear in terms of increase over DI water with velocity - just a small increase in heat transfer as the velocity increased.
Viscosity does come into play, but that doesn't change as you speed up the fluid. Tho, your fluid will heat up as it goes fast the change in temperature is not large enough to have a impact of the viscosity.

You always have vibration of the particles - called Brownian motion. But, this will be overcome by the turbulence of the fluid. If the fluid was still there might be some measurable Brownian motion effects.

What we have found is that your convective coefficient, h, increases.

So, you can start with this equation

Nu = .332*Re^.5*Pr^.333

Nu = nusselt number
Re = Reynolds number
Pr = Prandtl number

The Reynolds number takes into account the viscosity and velocity of the fluid - Re = (density*Velocity*L)/(viscosity)

What we did is measure the viscosity at different temperatures, we used a few different instruments to measure the velocity (doppler and pitot tubes), and we knew the distance, L, at which we were measuring temperature down the plate). We also measured the inlet temperature. So, we could measure Re, the Prandtl number was known, therfore, we could solve for the Nusselt number.

The Nusselt number can also be found by Nu = h*L/k

h - convective coefficient
L - length
k - thermal conductivity

So, from above, we solved Nu based on our Re, and we then we used the second equation to get our h, since we measured k and the L was the same.

[SoulsCollective]

Sorry for the revival, but did quad tests ever end up happening? And what's happening with availability of this stuff?

[skinnee]

I just received the next two mixes to test. I am setting up a second bench so I can run these tests while I rerun all of the CPU block tests. Trust me this additional wait is a good thing. :D

[Brad8988]

I want some of the white..

[wez3570]

Sorry for the revival, but did quad tests ever end up happening? And what's happening with availability of this stuff?

I be interested to know that answer too:)

[relttem]

It will be available when we get the results we want..:). We want to make the best stuff available, so we keep tweaking trying to correct things. We sent out some samples of different mixtures and nanoparticle size to see if there is any difference. I am going to be testing on Quad Q9400, my partner is testing on two phenom blacks (I am not sure which ones), I can't remember what Skinnee and HESmelaugh test on. Skinnee and HESmelaugh will be doing bench tests(as far as I know), while me and my partner will be doing tests in off-the-shelf computers that come with WC already installed. It should be interesting. If you need to know anything specific PM me.

[SNiiPE_DoGG]

FluidXP has "nanofluid" now, I dont know if its legit but its out there...