Apogee GTX = Fail

[eporopat]

I took apart my Apogee GTX + MCW60 loop two weekends ago to install my new GTZ in a new s775 system, only to find that the aluminum GTX top had corroded out. The pin bases of the GTX and MCW60 were blocked with corrosion debris, and I'm not sure what sort of shape my PA120.2 is in. The GTX top was hardly recognizable; I soaked it in vinegar for the pics since it wasn't usable anyway.

I emailed Michelle yesterday requesting a replacement copper top GTX but I haven't gotten anything back from them.

Oh, the parts are less than a year old and the loop itself was last flushed about 8 months ago, always running distilled plus PT-Nuke.


Moral of the story? If you have a GTX in your loop...



...get a new waterblock ;)





edit: also, sorry for the crappy pics

[T_Flight]

Yep, looks like it started at the thread base, and started working it's way out from there. That's not good, but it's not as bad as I have seen. There's a pic on here somewhere of one that ate all the way through the side, and has actually mushroomed out a flange surface like a balloon where the corrosion had expanded and pushed it apart. Yours is like shiny new compared to that one. heh

[Eddie3dfx]

Delrin replacement top would be nice.

[tajoh111]

Distilled is not enough and ptnuke is a biocide. Its not your fault, but adding a anti corrosion agent might have stopped this.

[eporopat]

Distilled is not enough and ptnuke is a biocide. Its not your fault, but adding a anti corrosion agent might have stopped this.

Very true. I read a post somewhere by Swiftech that the top had a 'mil spec' coating/plating (beyond regular anodizing) that would prevent corrosion, or something to that effect, so using distilled would be fine.

[HotGore]

You wont get a replacement. You voided your warranty by not using the Swiftech Hydrx additive.

I don't understand why you would use Cu and Alu in the same loop with no anti-corrosive additive.

[NaeKuh]

I don't understand why you would use Cu and Alu in the same loop with no anti-corrosive additive.

because gabe went though a lot of hype about the mil spec plating.

Then even went out with us with full open books on the process and quality.

So we figured if the company was gonna be that transparent with that block, they must of had a lot of faith in it.

It wasnt until the start of this year, that i myself ditched that block. My pal phelan ran into corrosion, and he's not a noob.

So guys cut some slack to the OP. Sheeze, if you dont know the true history behind it, you have no right to judge.


Now the delima you have is, new block? or copper top?

[IanY]

I like my GTX, and its still in use by my son.

The warranty requirements are clear. Hydrx. Not PT Nuke. Not Pentosin. Not straight water. Not Primochill. Not Fluid XP. Not Vingear. Not anything else apart from Swiftech Hydrx.

If you wanted to use water and PT Nuke, you should never have bought the GTX, period. End of story. Buyer beware. Caveat emptor.

Gabe trumpeting his military spec plating or whatever DOES NOT absolve you from your own negligence of ignoring the perils of corrosion, and certainly is no excuse for not using Hydrx, knowing darn well that you would need your warranty honored in an RMA process.

In a court of law, you have zero recourse. Yes, even class action suit. IT IS in the product literature that comes with every single block. Yes, I have consulted a product attorney.

Same fashion. Warranty for GTZ and GT are upheld only with the use of Hydrx.

No, I disagree with the policy. However, you cannot say that its not clearly spelt out. No use of Hydrx = no warranty = no RMA.

I myself use only straight water. I switched out the aluminum top for a copper top on the day the copper top was made available, and used straight water from then on at my own risk. Yes, I had diluted Hydrx when the aluminum top was in place.

I don't like the warranty policy, but it is what it is. Don't like it, then DON'T BUY Swiftech.

No bleeping bltching. No moaning. No crying.

Sorry to be so harsh, but I felt the need to inject some reality into this discussion.

[eporopat]

I like my GTX, and its still in use by my son.

The warranty requirements are clear. Hydrx. Not PT Nuke. Not Pentosin. Not straight water. Not Primochill. Not Fluid XP. Not Vingear. Not anything else apart from Swiftech Hydrx.

If you wanted to use water and PT Nuke, you should never have bought the GTX, period. End of story. Buyer beware. Caveat emptor.

Gabe trumpeting his military spec plating or whatever DOES NOT absolve you from your own negligence of ignoring the perils of corrosion, and certainly is no excuse for not using Hydrx, knowing darn well that you would need your warranty honored in an RMA process.

In a court of law, you have zero recourse. Yes, even class action suit. IT IS in the product literature that comes with every single block. Yes, I have consulted a product attorney.

Same fashion. Warranty for GTZ and GT are upheld only with the use of Hydrx.

No, I disagree with the policy. However, you cannot say that its not clearly spelt out. No use of Hydrx = no warranty = no RMA.

I myself use only straight water. I switched out the aluminum top for a copper top on the day the copper top was made available, and used straight water from then on at my own risk. Yes, I had diluted Hydrx when the aluminum top was in place.

I don't like the warranty policy, but it is what it is. Don't like it, then DON'T BUY Swiftech.

No bleeping bltching. No moaning. No crying.

Sorry to be so harsh, but I felt the need to inject some reality into this discussion.


I bought it based on Gabe's personal comments and the Swiftech Apogee GTX page (http://www.swiftnets.com/products/ApogeeGTX.asp):

The housing is CNC machined out of billet aluminum and receives two plating's for a lifetime protection against corrosion: electroless nickel plating (MIL-C-26074E grade B) and Zinc Cobalt plating (ASTM B 840-99 grade 6).



The housing is supported by a 5 year limited(*) warranty.


Neither mention the Hydrx requirement. And I'm not :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:ing; I posted as another example of the block being defective so others will be warned to check their loops :)



edit: In case you miss the warranty exclusions, they're at the bottom of the page:


(*) warranty exclusions: mechanical damage(s), die discoloration.

[eporopat]

because gabe went though a lot of hype about the mil spec plating.

Then even went out with us with full open books on the process and quality.

So we figured if the company was gonna be that transparent with that block, they must of had a lot of faith in it.

It wasnt until the start of this year, that i myself ditched that block. My pal phelan ran into corrosion, and he's not a noob.

So guys cut some slack to the OP. Sheeze, if you dont know the true history behind it, you have no right to judge.


Now the delima you have is, new block? or copper top?

I guess that all depends on if Swiftech stands behind their products and their product claims ;)

[CyberDruid]

It pisses me off when people defend this POS aluminum top that should have been pulled off the shelves after the FIRST reported failure from corrosion. I bought a number of these blocks and read the papers that shipped with the first batch and I saw nothing about having to use Hydrx or it would void my warranty. But my gut told me to toss that aluminum top in the trash....so I got the copper tops when they FIRST came out. In fact I preordered direct from Swiftech before they had shipped to any other vendor. It's no surprise that the tops fail...and if someone wants to use an additive just so they can use them that's their choice. Once I used my last copper top I no longer even considered purchasing the GTX...it just made no economic sense.

I use Swiftech stuff a lot. I give props to them for continuously innovating...but the GTX and Stealth should have been mothballed a year ago.

[Kayin]

Hi, Dead Horse.

This is Stick. He's interested in meeting you.

*Bashes Dead Horse with Stick repeatedly*

I'll leave you guys to your introductions.

[YugenM]

Kayin;3361186']Hi, Dead Horse.

This is Stick. He's interested in meeting you.

*Bashes Dead Horse with Stick repeatedly*

I'll leave you guys to your introductions.

http://xs132.xs.to/xs132/08423/beatdeadhorse675.gif

[Manicdan]

my opinion is to give them hell

even if they might win by warranty contract, convince them that by not helping someone who was sold by bad advertising, you will use all your resources to destroy their good name. if you have bought many things from them in the past, remind them you are a repeat customer who can very quickly be persuaded to go to a different company by dropping you on your ass. but also be nice by saying if they help you, then you will purchase the proper chemical to prevent this from happening, which would be a bit of money in their pockets.

the math is simple, they can give you another block that costs them probably 20$ or you can prevent them from earning hundreds by deterring their other customers away.

[YMAA]

Moral of the story? If you have a GTX in your loop...





...use some corrosion protection.

[IanY]

I bought it based on Gabe's personal comments and the Swiftech Apogee GTX page (http://www.swiftnets.com/products/ApogeeGTX.asp):



Neither mention the Hydrx requirement. And I'm not :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:ing; I posted as another example of the block being defective so others will be warned to check their loops :)



edit: In case you miss the warranty exclusions, they're at the bottom of the page:


You obviously missed Item #6 in the installation guide.

"Swiftech's Hydrx is recommended (against corrosion and algae)."

You also did not read the disclaimer in the Installation Manual in ever so fine print.

http://www.swiftnets.com/products/Apogee-GTX-installationguide-rev2.pdf


Its your responsibility to read properly and to do you own homework.

***I am not defending Swiftech***

Sorry, but this is an internet forum. What was said within the context of an internet forum is meaningless. Swiftech's CEO does not legally have to defend what was said in such a forum.

By using the product, you imply that you have read all the warranty literature, the installation manual and have agreed to the terms and conditions of the usage of the block. YOU HAVE AGREED to exercise proper discretionary measures. YOU HAVE AGREED to do you own due diligence.

It is what it is. The product is a PITA, but you shoulder the blame for your actions.

Again, don't like this (and I don't) then don't buy Swiftech in the future.

[IanY]

Important Disclosures: While all efforts have been made to provide the most comprehensive tutorial possible, Swiftech assumes no liability expressed or implied for any damage(s) occurring to your components.... due to failure or defect in the Swiftech cooling product. ..... {regarding conditions for the warranty} (III) This product has not been misused, handled carelessly, or other than in accordance with any instructions provided with respect to its use. .... This guarantee does not confer rights other than those expressly set out above {in the instructions} and does not cover any claims for consequential loss or damage.


Sorry but it is what it is. The disclaimer was very carefully written out by a very throrough attorney.

[Sparky]

Iany... it says on that guide that hydrx is recommended not required. It says use of distilled water however is mandatory. Not following a recommendation doesn't void your warranty.

[IanY]

Not here to argue. Not here to defend Swiftech. I'll rest now.

Sparky, however you interpret that hazy language, all it means that it remains unclear, and its your word against the company's, and guess who prevails?

[Sparky]

Not trying to argue either. Just seems pretty clear to me :shrug:

[IanY]

I'll tell you how the company would respond. Its so predictable.

What is Hydrx? Propylene glycol. What other product is propylene glycol? Zerex, which is pretty much what Hydrx is anyway.

Is Ethylene Glycol an acceptable substitute? Probably. So is Pentosin alright? Yes, but the company wouldn't want to outright state that its alright because they want to sell you little bottles of Hydrx.

Then what is PT Nuke? A biocide that protects against algae. Does PT Nuke protect against corrosion ? No.

So, you failed to protect your loop against corrosion, and so its your fault.

This is not my argument on behalf of the company, but it would be the standard CYA response.

[MomijiTMO]

It pisses me off when people defend this POS aluminum top that should have been pulled off the shelves after the FIRST reported failure from corrosion.
Aye I agree. Look the way I see it is that people mix up corrosion and anti bacterial products and think one is a substitute for another.

Com'on guys, I see threads like these every week here at XS. I've seen Gabe being quite active in all of them and offering as much support as possible over the forum. I appreciate this and understand that the issue might not be Swiftech's fault directly but nonetheless it is your company's name that gets dragged through the mud.

Everyone take a chill pill. If you are still using the stock top on the GTX without using the Swiffy coolant you are going to end up in the same situation. Read the threads and learn from the stuff that happens. When some Koolance fittings showed signs of corrosion, everyone started checking theirs and some also were corroded. Do note that people did not just continue without checking and then 2 months later have a severe leak and then create a brand new thread saying boo hoo Koolance = FAIL.

The whole idea behind this forum in XS as I see it is to learn together by exchanging knowledge. I've learned a hell of a lot from the guys here and that's pretty much it.

[eporopat]

I'll tell you how the company would respond. Its so predictable.

What is Hydrx? Propylene glycol. What other product is propylene glycol? Zerex, which is pretty much what Hydrx is anyway.

Is Ethylene Glycol an acceptable substitute? Probably. So is Pentosin alright? Yes, but the company wouldn't want to outright state that its alright because they want to sell you little bottles of Hydrx.

Then what is PT Nuke? A biocide that protects against algae. Does PT Nuke protect against corrosion ? No.

So, you failed to protect your loop against corrosion, and so its your fault.

This is not my argument on behalf of the company, but it would be the standard CYA response.


The "two plating's" were supposed to protect my loop against corrosion "for a lifetime" ;)

Thanks for the input, but after going through all the original retail packaging or the later universal hold-down plate notes, I didn't see any requirements for Hydrx. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not it was a requirement to only use Hydrx.

[nikhsub1]

Yeah I can still hear Swiftech saying how the 'military spec' plating will never corrode or fail etc etc etc. One day people will learn to not use aluminum in their loops. Really it is toxic to do so, period end of story.

[Jiangxue]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the anti corrosives only slows down the corrosion but doesn't totally prevent it?

[nikhsub1]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the anti corrosives only slows down the corrosion but doesn't totally prevent it?
You are correct.

[Jiangxue]

You are correct.

That means this loop was doomed anyway even if he were to use the Hydrx... it'd just be a matter of time.... :(

[Bei Fei]

I had a similar problem with my stealth block. I sent it in for a RMA and now it is being returned because they couldn't find anything wrong with the block. At least I will have a nice base to play with....

[MrWizard6600]

nevermind

[T_Flight]

That means this loop was doomed anyway even if he were to use the Hydrx... it'd just be a matter of time.... :(

Exactly. I'm new here, but i do have first hand experience with Galvanic Corrison. I also know alot about Al and plating becasue the rocket motors I make use Aluminum casing and the plating MUST be done by only a select few. There are few places in the world that can do it right, and do true aerospace grade hard anodizing. It is not cheap either.

I've also suffered this type of corrison on a boat when I was told certain metals were used ina mod that was done by the previous owner. He lied to me, and I got to eat a nice health repair and the shop that repaired it got a nice big smile on their face.

Wirth the way these loops are setup I can see no way around it. The only thing one can do is to run Cu with Cu or Brass, and Keep Al with Al.

Chemical aditives cannot stop an electro-chemical reaction. It can slow it, but it won't stop it completely. Left long enough it will still destroy the system. This is a huge problem, and is very damaging, because it doesn;t just damage the block, it damages every piece of copper in the system, it will damage the radiator also. One cheap piece Al can cost you a total from the ground up build with the exception of the pump, and maybe some clamps and stuff.

That's why I decided at the beginning, I was going to be ***very*** careful about each componet I selected and ask the seller before buying if it contains any aluminum. I'm also gonna go a step further and test every screw, nut, bolt, faster, plug, fitting, barb, cap, block, and every piece that holds that stuff together for any signs of steel or Al. Not that I don;t trust the people I deal with either. It's just that things have gotten mixed in with some products, without asome of these e-tailers knowing. I want my stuff to last. I'm gonna keep it as shiny new as the day it was bought.

[MomijiTMO]

Well err guys pretty much nothing is stable. In fact all liquid products you use [soaps etc] aren't stable. Chem engers work on improving the stability of the colloidal system but if left on it's own [for years] it will separate. While not the same products, the same methodology is used in designing anti-corrosive agents. The stuff doesn't corrode in a few months, instead in a year. You could of course change your water and add new anti-corrosive stuff to delay this.

[voigts]

I'm glad I bought the Dtek Fuzion v1 instead of the GTX.

Swiftech is a good company, and as such, all they simply have to do is take care of the situation and replace the top. At least they haven't duplicated this error with the GTZ.

[Jiangxue]

I'm glad I bought the Dtek Fuzion v1 instead of the GTX.

Swiftech is a good company, and as such, all they simply have to do is take care of the situation and replace the top. At least they haven't duplicated this error with the GTZ.

Yep. I still love swiftech stuff for both price and performance, and I'm getting the GTZ. :D

[safan80]

anyone that mixes aluminum and copper gets what they pay for.