ek supreme and a TEC. Could this work?

[Alexontherocks]

Hi everyone. I already mentioned my issue in another thread but here I am asking the question specifically.

I have completed my waterccoling project. Hopefully the same destiny awaits my powersupply project. In the meantime I have been doing some thinking

My current watercooling rig has an estimated àC/W of 0.02 and performs perfectly fine right now. Coolant is just above ambient and I don't even need active traditional cooling.

My question is simple. I was thinking of using a 545w peltier on my q6600 cpu and cool it with an ek supreme. The ek has a base of 50x50mm which I have lapped flat. The peltier on the other hand is 62mmx62mm wide

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gigantic-62mm-545-Watt-Thermoelectric-Peltier-Cooler_W0QQitemZ310087967809QQcmdZViewItem?hash=it em310087967809&_trkparms=39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A15|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Given the cooling ability of my ek supreme and ideally sndwiching the peltier between two copper plates of 62x62mm in size could I actually achieve something?

I don't want to spend money in a TEC waterblock and given the results I am getting in terms of heat dissipation I don't really think I need one given tha I adequately position a copper plate between the hoside and the waterblock.

So in conclusion I would like to ask you guys:

a) Can this be done in terms of peltier functionality. Can my ek supreme qith the rig I have in sig cool a 545w peltier run at max or slightly less?

b) Can someone please give some info on international shops where I can purchase copper 62mm plates?

Thanks !

[littleowl]

yes you can sandwich 2 62mm plates on your tec. will you gain much not really from what I have seen. the best sizes that has been found so far for doing a sandwich like this is 6mm thick cold plate, TEC, 8mm thick hot plate then water block on that. on the cpu you will want to use ceramique as well as on both sides of the tec. Then use AS5 or something like that on the water block and hot plate.

[TheGanG]

Huge peltiers are unhandy and impractical, search for "cascade peltiers"...

I have some experiments about peltiers; they are good for water chilling but needs lot of watts and producing too much heat itself...

And "CPU+Peltier+Waterblock+load" = just bulls.it

[Alexontherocks]

yes you can sandwich 2 62mm plates on your tec. will you gain much not really from what I have seen. the best sizes that has been found so far for doing a sandwich like this is 6mm thick cold plate, TEC, 8mm thick hot plate then water block on that. on the cpu you will want to use ceramique as well as on both sides of the tec. Then use AS5 or something like that on the water block and hot plate.

thanks...any tips on where to find those plates?

[TheGanG]

What is an actual gain of removed ihs? Do u have "before and after" tests?

[Alexontherocks]

1-2°C maybe......the gain is insignificant. The fact that the dies were soldred to the IHS makes the removal pretty much unnecessary. I would say I got a 1°C decrease in temps. Tests showed this even though ambient varied and applications do not always put the same amount of stress on the cores.

[littleowl]

thanks...any tips on where to find those plates?

not really sure you could try online metals (http://www.onlinemetals.com/) or look around your area for a shop that deals with metal work.

Hint: if you message them and request sizes they will cut and ship exactly what you want. (or at least they used to)

[Glyph]

I've personally used Online metals for custom metal cuts and i found them to be excellent. Saved me considerable trouble and expense of getting my own tools for cutting.

Their prices are higher than some other places, but their selection and flexibility is very good.

If I wasn't slapped with custom fees i'd still use em.

[Vinas]

You can find those plates on frozen CPU... At least I know they have 50mm plates.

As for the EK sup, it will work great, I was going to ask you about your pump but I see you have a nice iwaki. It is more than up to the task. What about your rad? I use a dual heatercore from a 1980 Bonneville and it is pushing the limit with my 245w TEC. Also using an EK sup with panworld/blueline 40px pump so I'm telling you this because I know my rad couldn't dissipate much more heat -- it's about maxed with the 245w and e8400 1.58vcore. TBH a TEC sandwich would probably work better. Two 245w TEC's for example instead of one large TEC will be much more efficient, but harder to design.

Recommend you use two PA 120.2 or a single PA 120.3 or something equivalent and it will work!

EDIT: Nevermind, I see you have a very nice radiator(s). Didn't we talk about your loop in the past? =)

[Vinas]

I forgot to mention that www.speedymetals.com (http://www.speedymetals.com) has treated me very well in the past. You can call them and the guys are quite helpful!! They'll even cut the stuff to size. This is what I used for my plates: http://www.speedymetals.com/c-8204-flat.aspx?pagenum=2 3/8 x 2"

[Alexontherocks]

You can find those plates on frozen CPU... At least I know they have 50mm plates.

As for the EK sup, it will work great, I was going to ask you about your pump but I see you have a nice iwaki. It is more than up to the task. What about your rad? I use a dual heatercore from a 1980 Bonneville and it is pushing the limit with my 245w TEC. Also using an EK sup with panworld/blueline 40px pump so I'm telling you this because I know my rad couldn't dissipate much more heat -- it's about maxed with the 245w and e8400 1.58vcore. TBH a TEC sandwich would probably work better. Two 245w TEC's for example instead of one large TEC will be much more efficient, but harder to design.

Recommend you use two PA 120.2 or a single PA 120.3 or something equivalent and it will work!

EDIT: Nevermind, I see you have a very nice radiator(s). Didn't we talk about your loop in the past? =)

Yes we did and I hope the project lived up to expectations. It certainly did to mine! Those are infact 2 radiators sandwiched together but airflow is great and I suspect they actually perform as they would if they were mounted each exposed to fresh air. This means I have plenty of headroom for additional heatdumps. Right now the cooling ability of my rig is impressive and I suspect at these levels of performance even the ek supreme can handle a tec quite well.

We shall see in the meantime I checked both sites. The first mentioned seems to not ship internationally. It keeps on asking for a "state" even though I live in another country.

The second one seems good but it is down at the moment. I shall see in the nex few days. In the meantime I am ready to place an order fot a TEC.

Any last thought on the most performing TEC I can can purchase? is the 545w from thermalenterprises the best one around? I guess we are going back to the thread about the largest TEC available....

Thanks!

[Vinas]

Only a few thoughts... At least this is what I ran into and others always post about.

1. If you're not going to throttle the TEC power then your setup should run pretty good at 12vdc. Running at max rating is never good for TECs, because the differential gain is minimal, the heat dump is greatly increased, and the power used is exponential vs 75 to about 85% loaded.
2. Idle temps will probably be around -10c give or take 5c.
3. Because of that you need insulation for your board, socket, blocks... Condensation in and around the socket will be a problem.
4. Dedicated PSU of sorts (meanwell?) should be used.
5. I forgot you're out of the US (stupid me) ... maybe you have a parts distributor for the CU plates? In a pinch thin ALU plates would work, at about half the thermal conductivity. Ideal pressure for the hotplate-tec-coldplate is 150psi up to 300psi according to Uncle Jimbo. I have acceptable results with about 100psi.

I think that's it... I'm sure other people will add some thoughts. Also I'm glad this all came together for you!!!

EDIT here are a few pics:

Here's how you might tighten your plates, drill holes like below and use bolts with plastic washers (will insulate your bolts from the hot/cold)... Uncle Jimbo recommended this type of method in the past:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=79828&d=1212725743
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=79829&d=1212725824

Insulation (this is from my rig):
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/vinas_photo/bloodTEC021.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/vinas_photo/bloodTEC022.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/vinas_photo/bloodTEC024.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/vinas_photo/bloodTEC023.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/vinas_photo/bloodTEC027.jpg

Materials I used mostly available at www.dangerden.com (neoprene insulation kit , dielectric grease, ceramique, tuniq tx2, dow conformal coating) :
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/vinas_photo/bloodTEC017.jpg

[Alexontherocks]

Thanks Vinas!

I was just thinking of doing something like that. The only real problem is the copper. You see in Italy everything is available for shops and intermediate sellers but almost nothing is available for endusers in terms of custom metal work.

I will order the plates from the us if I can and go from there. The rest is easy to find.

[Quad-Damage]

Only a few thoughts... At least this is what I ran into and others always post about.

1. If you're not going to throttle the TEC power then your setup should run pretty good at 12vdc. Running at max rating is never good for TECs, because the differential gain is minimal, the heat dump is greatly increased, and the power used is exponential vs 75 to about 85% loaded.
2. Idle temps will probably be around -10c give or take 5c.
3. Because of that you need insulation for your board, socket, blocks... Condensation in and around the socket will be a problem.
4. Dedicated PSU of sorts (meanwell?) should be used.
5. I forgot you're out of the US (stupid me) ... maybe you have a parts distributor for the CU plates? In a pinch thin ALU plates would work, at about half the thermal conductivity. Ideal pressure for the hotplate-tec-coldplate is 150psi up to 300psi according to Uncle Jimbo. I have acceptable results with about 100psi.

I think that's it... I'm sure other people will add some thoughts. Also I'm glad this all came together for you!!!

EDIT here are a few pics:

Here's how you might tighten your plates, drill holes like below and use bolts with plastic washers (will insulate your bolts from the hot/cold)... Uncle Jimbo recommended this type of method in the past:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=79828&d=1212725743
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=79829&d=1212725824

Insulation (this is from my rig):
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/vinas_photo/bloodTEC021.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/vinas_photo/bloodTEC022.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/vinas_photo/bloodTEC024.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/vinas_photo/bloodTEC023.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/vinas_photo/bloodTEC027.jpg

Materials I used mostly available at www.dangerden.com (neoprene insulation kit , dielectric grease, ceramique, tuniq tx2, dow conformal coating) :
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk127/vinas_photo/bloodTEC017.jpg


Questions for you.

How is the stability of this?
Do you have to check it on it alot?
Will it create dew on the water line?
How much would this run me?
Could i do this with a GTZ?
Do you feel it's worth it?
What temps do you get with this
I have a E8500@4.15ghz and it idles at 28c what would it be like with a T.E.C Cooler?

[Vinas]

Questions for you.

How is the stability of this?
Do you have to check it on it alot?
Will it create dew on the water line?
How much would this run me?
Could i do this with a GTZ?
Do you feel it's worth it?
What temps do you get with this
I have a E8500@4.15ghz and it idles at 28c what would it be like with a T.E.C Cooler?
TEC is very stable if done correctly. Recommend you read the stickies and start your own thread with any specific questions...

No condensation on the water lines, the cold is in the bottom of the TEC, the water lines are somewhat warm actually. You need to insulate the CPU socket very well.

Cost is good water + TEC + materials. If you need to upgrade a RAD then it could get expensive, also your electricity bill could go way up if you run it 24/7. I don't run this 24/7 -- but I've compiled code and done backups for a few days at a time. It's very stable.

For the dual core 45nm CPU's I feel TEC is worth it. Anything much larger and you need multiple TECs because of capacity issues, then you have to cool even more heat, so it becomes expensive quickly. At that point it's arguably cheaper to do phase.

Your e8500 would probably idle around 0c at worst. But really without knowing your setup it's just a guess,. My e8400 as I type this now is @ -9c... 1.55vcore 4.25GHz :p:

EDIT : "Could i do this with a GTZ?" Not sure about that -- really depends on your RAD wattage capactiy (ie how much heat can it remove).