Command Rate (CR) 1T on Mars Mobo

[LordIT]

Hi!

Is it possible to get (CR) 1T on the Mars Mobo? I adjusted 1T in the BIOS and tried many memory settings wihout any success. I Think my D9GMH- memory should be good enough.

[HDCHOPPER]

yes my ram is running on 1T

only memset wont show it ...but slected in bios does work fine

[LordIT]

But I think when windows getting started it will turn from 1T to 2T. It also can be checked in Lavalys Everest.

[negev]

Not sure if this is relevant to the Mars, but my Geil DDR3 sticks worked at 1T on the blackops but only at certain frequencies (close to stock). Above that it goes to 2T.

My new G Skill PI sticks refuse to run at 1T even at stock with 2.1v.

[Xello]

On blackops my 1600mhz corsair dimms can't go 1T after about 1860mhz or so too.

[HDCHOPPER]

But I think when windows getting started it will turn from 1T to 2T. It also can be checked in Lavalys Everest.


everest doesnt read anything correctly on my board 80% of all the numbers are bogus and mixed up

[LordIT]

@negev:
Yes, you are right. It is not relevant (only 1-2% more performance). Are the Geil better quality memories than G Skill?
I am afraid that 1T is only possible with DDR3- memory.

@Xello:
1600 Mhz on 1T is very nice.

@HDCOPPER:
That is strange. Which Everest Version do you use (Everest Ultimate 4.50)? Please have a look at Motherboard/Chipset.
I think cpuz can read the Command Rate correctly.

[saaya]

hmmm i dont think the command rate changed when windows loads, its possible that the command rate setting doesnt work properly or that for some settings or for some sticks the command rate is 2t even tho you set 1t in bios.

can you set command rate 1t with memset?
can you try at really low memory speeds or single channel in case it crashes or freezes?
and then compare the memory latency and bandwidth and check if theres a gain or no.
there were pronblems with cpuz reporting the command rate wrong, i havent heard about this with everest but it could be possible as well

command rate 1t does work for ddr2 for sure, if i remember correctly only the nvidia chipsets cold do it though, and only up to ddr2 800 or maybe 900 with very high chipset voltage :)

[LordIT]

I adjusted (CR) 1T, main timings 3-3-3-9 and VDIMM 2,16V in the BIOS.
The number 2T can not be changed to 1T in MemSet. It keeps on 2T!

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9981/plud3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/plud3.jpg/1/w688.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img216/plud3.jpg/1/)

[TheGanG]

I adjusted (CR) 1T, main timings 3-3-3-9 and VDIMM 2,16V in the BIOS.
The number 2T can not be changed to 1T in MemSet. It keeps on 2T!


:confused: My KHX1066 DDR2 SLi dimms work T1 at any combination on a nVidia nForce 780i SLi Chipset...

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7895/yeniwindowsresimdosyaspeu6.jpg

[LordIT]

I wonder why Bank Cycle Time (tRC) is not supported on the Mars? TheGanG`s SLi Chipset does it!

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/5499/cpuzgm7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/cpuzgm7.jpg/1/w391.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img66/cpuzgm7.jpg/1/)

Here is a screenshot of a Foxconn Tutorial from the Quantum Force website. I cant believe that:

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/5429/tutyi5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/tutyi5.jpg/1/w547.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img75/tutyi5.jpg/1/)

I have never seen (CR) 1T on a P35 Chipset. There is something wrong.

[saaya]

I wonder why Bank Cycle Time (tRC) is not supported on the Mars? TheGanG`s SLi Chipset does it!

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/5499/cpuzgm7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/cpuzgm7.jpg/1/w391.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img66/cpuzgm7.jpg/1/)of course its "supported" :)
every chipset supports every memory timing, the reason why its greyed out in cpuz on the p35 chipset is because the author, franck, probably doesnt know how to detect/read/calculate that timing, or he knows how to do it but its a bit hassle so he didnt implement it.


Here is a screenshot of a Foxconn Tutorial from the Quantum Force website. I cant believe that:

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/5429/tutyi5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/tutyi5.jpg/1/w547.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img75/tutyi5.jpg/1/)

I have never seen (CR) 1T on a P35 Chipset. There is something wrong.there is nothing wrong, Intel chipsets support 1t, though its not really command rate like on older chipsets... but its usually referred to as command rate as its almost the same thing from what i know. Most mainboard makers now call the options 1N and 2N and not 1T and 2T.

[LordIT]

of course its "supported" :)
there is nothing wrong, Intel chipsets support 1t, though its not really command rate like on older chipsets... but its usually referred to as command rate as its almost the same thing from what i know. Most mainboard makers now call the options 1N and 2N and not 1T and 2T.

Thank you for your answer.:)
But why cant I get CR 1 if it is supported? We could see that it works on SLi and that it is not a mistake in windows. On the other hand I can get some memory setting which aren’t available in the BIOS. For example: The sharpest BIOS- timings are 3-3-3-9. In MemSet 3-2-2-1 can be adjusted.

[HDCHOPPER]

some of the numbers are not right including voltage it's 2.1 also c/r is 1T not gonna list them all

also memset reads everything correctly execpt c/r

http://img3.glowfoto.com/images/2008/09/16-2042022314T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=16-204202L&y=2008&m=09&t=jpg&rand=2314&srv=img3)

[LordIT]

Thank you for the Sreenshot, HDCHOPPER. :)
In my opinion the windows tools tell the truth and we only have CR 2T on The Mars. This CR 2T is displayed in everest, cpuz, memset,...and so on. And all these tools would display CR T1 on a SLi chipset.
Imagine you have many manual high OC settings in the BIOS and your restart will fail. Then you will have a three times power "on -off" and your windows starts with optimized defaults. Most of your manual BIOS- Settings are not working at that time. But if you turn back into BIOS you will see that all your manual options are still there.
So you could as well have the option CR 1T in the BIOS which doesnt work in windows.

[saaya]

Thank you for your answer.:)
But why cant I get CR 1 if it is supported? We could see that it works on SLi and that it is not a mistake in windows. On the other hand I can get some memory setting which aren’t available in the BIOS. For example: The sharpest BIOS- timings are 3-3-3-9. In MemSet 3-2-2-1 can be adjusted.

let me check if we can add 3-2-2-1 timings in BIOS :)


Thank you for the Sreenshot, HDCHOPPER. :)
In my opinion the windows tools tell the truth and we only have CR 2T on The Mars. This CR 2T is displayed in everest, cpuz, memset,...and so on. And all these tools would display CR T1 on a SLi chipset. its a different chipset, dont forget that. the command rate is a chipset timing, not a memory timing, so on every chipset you have to read this timing in a different way from different registers etc. So the cmd might be read correctly on one chipset and not read correctly on another one.
and even if a tool CAN read the command rate, like i said before, on the new intel chipsets its not REALLY command rate but a sligjtly different timing, so even IF they can read it, some developers might decide its not command rate and will always show command rate of 2t.
im not sure about command rate though... i suspect its not detected properly, but im not sure... P35 ddr3 definately supports 1T, so why shouldnt the DDR2 version? ill check with the BIOS engineers :)


Imagine you have many manual high OC settings in the BIOS and your restart will fail. Then you will have a three times power "on -off" and your windows starts with optimized defaults. Most of your manual BIOS- Settings are not working at that time. But if you turn back into BIOS you will see that all your manual options are still there.
So you could as well have the option CR 1T in the BIOS which doesnt work in windows.no, thats a different thing :)
when oc recovery kicks in and detected that the previous boot/post failed once or several times, it will load the safe defaults, which are lower speeds and more relaxed timings, and use those settings to post.
you can then enter BIOS and it will show you the last settings you used, so you dont have to change all the settings again. but once you hit save and exit, it will load those settings from BIOS again, and if you didnt change anything it will most likely fail to post again.

Sorry if i explained it a bit weird, let me know if i should explain it again :D

[saaya]

one more thing, so if you can set command rate 1t in bios, and boot into windows, then what happens if you set command rate of 2t?
is there a performance difference at all or its the same?
can you overclock the memory higher with 1t vs 2t?

[Xello]

when oc recovery kicks in and detected that the previous boot/post failed once or several times, it will load the safe defaults, which are lower speeds and more relaxed timings, and use those settings to post.

I believe it basically reduces the FSB to stock, right? It seemed to do that for me anyway, take it back to 333, taking the cpu clock way down and the memory clock with it.


you can then enter BIOS and it will show you the last settings you used, so you dont have to change all the settings again.

A fantastic little feature that we take for granted after using it this long :up: Having to set everything again would be a bummer...

[saaya]

I believe it basically reduces the FSB to stock, right? It seemed to do that for me anyway, take it back to 333, taking the cpu clock way down and the memory clock with it.
not sure what exactly it does, but it changes a whole lot of things, voltages fsb strap memory timings chipset timings...


A fantastic little feature that we take for granted after using it this long :up: Having to set everything again would be a bummer...exactly! i just helped some engineers debugging an entry level foxconn p45 board for half an hour on monday and it doesnt have oc recovery. MAN you really only know what you got til its gone :D ocing that board without oc recovery was terrible... resetting cmos all the time, then entering bios and changing the same settings again and again and again and again :nuts:

[naokaji]

95% of the time commnad rate 1 doesnt work when you have the combo of ddr2, s775 and intel chipset, dont ask me for the technical reasons, but I've tried many combos of ddr2 and chipsets and never seen it work properly, being able to set it doesnt count as working, anyway, there are some rare cases where people did get it to work, but rare is the keyword there.
remove any of the factors there and it will work, ddr3? sure, command rate 1 is no problem, nvidia chipset? again, its no problem.

[LordIT]

let me check if we can add 3-2-2-1 timings in BIOS :)


Yes, and the performanc level 1,2 and 3, please! :up:



P35 ddr3 definately supports 1T, so why shouldnt the DDR2 version? ill check with the BIOS engineers :)

That would be great! :up:



So my problem is that I can’t get 1T to work with the mobo, with 1T or Auto the results is 2T, with 2T also 2T. I have also tried many different kind of timings and dividers but so far nothing have helped me. Last time I used this mobo a couple of weeks ago then 1T was no problem, the only change made is a BIOS flash to g30 so I believe it have something to do with that.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=200468
Perhaps it depends on a BIOS- Version? I tested P15 and G20. I would test the other 14 versions if there were a chance.


95% of the time commnad rate 1 doesnt work when you have the combo of ddr2, s775 and intel chipset, dont ask me for the technical reasons, but I've tried many combos of ddr2 and chipsets and never seen it work properly, being able to set it doesnt count as working, anyway, there are some rare cases where people did get it to work, but rare is the keyword there.

The Mars Mobo belongs to the 5%, for sure. There is that performance level 1 which I havent seen on one another P35 board.


one more thing, so if you can set command rate 1t in bios, and boot into windows, then what happens if you set command rate of 2t?
is there a performance difference at all or its the same?
can you overclock the memory higher with 1t vs 2t?
Yes, we could prove if 1T works, couldnt we?
I had my memory @1160Mhz @5-5-5-15 stable (Command Rate [Auto]). I have never been higher. I am afraid of crashing it. But I could test up to how many Mhz CL3 is stable.
Would an everst memory benchmark help?

[MajkY]

Can I ask, what is the diference between 1T & 2T ?

[Xello]

Command rate is a latency, so 1T is faster than 2T.

It has to do with the delay between when a memory chip is selected and when the first command can be issued. Under 1T it takes 1 clock cycle to select the memory bank, and under 2T it takes 2 cycles. Once the memory bank has been selected, the timings dictating your speed are CAS, RAS etc. Only when a new memory bank is to be selected will the 1T/2T once again come into play.

[HDCHOPPER]

ok LoardIT been up all night so figgered eye would try to help ya figger this out ... dont know if this helps but here ya go
did 2 everest latancy bench test for ya 1 at 1T = 49.7ns & 1 at 2T = 49.8ns both at 4.5 cpu speed only thing eye did was go to bios and changed the command rate from 1T & 2T and took screenies

1T....http://img3.glowfoto.com/images/2008/09/18-1123053399T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=18-112305L&y=2008&m=09&t=jpg&rand=3399&srv=img3)


2T....http://img3.glowfoto.com/images/2008/09/18-1123421500T.jpg (http://www.glowfoto.com/viewimage.php?img=18-112342L&y=2008&m=09&t=jpg&rand=1500&srv=img3)

[Xello]

ok LoardIT been up all night so figgered eye would try to help ya figger this out ... dont know if this helps but here ya go
did 2 everest latancy bench test for ya 1 at 1T = 49.7ns & 1 at 2T = 49.8ns both at 4.5 cpu speed only thing eye did was go to bios and changed the command rate from 1T & 2T and took screenies

The 1T definitely isn't 1T then, you should be seeing a few whole ns less on the latency and something between 700 and 900mb/sec increase on the read with 1T, i'm pretty sure.

I take it Memset is still showing you as 2T even when you set 1T in the bios? I'm pretty certain if memset is showing you as 2T then you really are on 2T.

[LordIT]

I had no difference in the Everest Memory Benchmark between CR1 and CR2 as HDCHOPPER.

Then I did a memory OC:

Setting: FSB 150x10 @3-3-3-9 @ 1,89V
OC with Aegis Panel. CR1 and CR2 were the same: Blue Screen (memory crashed) @ FSB 162

Setting: FSB 150x10 @3-3-3-9 @ 2,2V
OC with Aegis Panel. CR1 and CR2 were the same: Screen frozen (CPU?) @ FSB 182


The 1T definitely isn't 1T then, you should be seeing a few whole ns less on the latency and something between 700 and 900mb/sec increase on the read with 1T, i'm pretty sure.

700-900 MB/s on the read - thats a lot!

[Xello]

I think it actually varies, maybe as low as 200-300mbps on the read and 800mbps~ total bandwidth on Sandra. It's definitely measurable, though :)

[HDCHOPPER]

The 1T definitely isn't 1T then, you should be seeing a few whole ns less on the latency and something between 700 and 900mb/sec increase on the read with 1T, i'm pretty sure.

I take it Memset is still showing you as 2T even when you set 1T in the bios? I'm pretty certain if memset is showing you as 2T then you really are on 2T.

ya ya memset still showed 2T during all that

was just hopeing that would help all try to figger it out :D

eyem with all in hopeing 1T "can" work ...if it is or not is beyond me

esp seeing how eye just got some hot rod domminators :D

[Xello]

I'm on 1T, and memset won't let me change to 2T either, so i'd say this is simply a setting that can't be changed once you're into Windows, any testing you do make sure you reboot and change in bios.

[LordIT]

I'm on 1T, and memset won't let me change to 2T either, so i'd say this is simply a setting that can't be changed once you're into Windows, any testing you do make sure you reboot and change in bios.
Yes, it is a chipset timing as saaya said and the Computer has to turn off that the NB can be reprogrammed. It is the same with the first main memory timing CAS Latency (tCL). Or can anybody change the number (tCL) in MemSet? I dont think so. And my next question is: Why does MemSet have these options though its has to change in BIOS?

[HDCHOPPER]

ya same here guess thats a question for felix :D

[LordIT]

im not sure about command rate though... i suspect its not detected properly, but im not sure... P35 ddr3 definately supports 1T, so why shouldnt the DDR2 version? ill check with the BIOS engineers :)

Have you found any new results, meanwhile?

[HDCHOPPER]

ya how about some real 1T action saaya ??

[saaya]

i talked to the engineers and this is actually a tough nut...
there IS 1T for DDR2 operation in the p35/x38/x48 memory controller, BUT, its a different command rate than for DDR3 operation...
its acompletely different register to set, which is weird. well let me explain it.
there arent two memory controllers in the chipset, its one that can run ddr2 and ddr3.
basically ddr3 is an upgrade to ddr2 in that the memory controller needs some extra pins and functions, so you can disable those and have a ddr2 memory controller.
this doesnt mean any memory controller that can handle ddr3 can handle ddr2 as well, but its very very easy to add ddr2 support for a ddr3 controller.

so... its weird that there is a different way of using command rate for ddr2 and ddr3.
the engineers ran some tests and there is indeed a difference between 1t and 2t, but its almost nonexistant... its actually possible that the test results are identical and just hapenned to fluctuate slightly which made the 1t look faster.

so basically... make of that what you want...
p35 doesnt support 1t in ddr2 mode
p35 supports 1t in ddr2 mode but its very slow
p35 2t for ddr2 mode is very fast, almost as fast as 1t...

if this would be our only board atm, or the board we focus on most, then id ask them to dive deeper and see if they can work something out and maybe force the ddr3 1t mode for ddr2 operation somehow...which might be possible.... but i hope you guys understand that x48 and x58 are our focus now and we use our bios engineering resources on that, especially since thats what we are short on atm.

if you guys are interested in this you can use a register mapping tool like baredit from felix88 (author of memset) and create register dumps using 1t and 2t and post it here, and ill see if i can find something myself :toast:

[HDCHOPPER]

well thanks for the feedback anyways ;)
if thiers hardly any differance then it's too much work for yall while getting the newer chipsets cleaned up
thanks for looking into it all tho :)

[LordIT]

Yes, many thanks for your help, saaya. :)


i talked to the engineers and this is actually a tough nut...
so basically... make of that what you want...
p35 doesnt support 1t in ddr2 mode
p35 supports 1t in ddr2 mode but its very slow
p35 2t for ddr2 mode is very fast, almost as fast as 1t...


These are nice kind of views - all answers are true!


if you guys are interested in this you can use a register mapping tool like baredit from felix88 (author of memset) and create register dumps using 1t and 2t and post it here, and ill see if i can find something myself :toast:
If I knew how to do I would do it!

[saaya]

thanks for looking into it all tho :)
thats what im here for :toast:


Yes, many thanks for your help, saaya. :)
These are nice kind of views - all answers are true!
If I knew how to do I would do it!

here you go :D
http://www.tweakers.fr/baredit.html

whenever you change something in bios or use a tool to change a voltage or setting etc, it actually changes some register values inside the chip your tweaking. there are registers inside each cpu, gpu, chipset and memory that control how the chips is operating and enable and disable certain features. some of them are locked, like the higher multipliers in cpus for example...

with tools like baredit you can access those registers directly...
this has an advantage and a disadvantage. you can access any and all registers, but you dont know what it does or what you should set it to :D

back when 90% of the boards didnt have even basic memory timing options people used tools like this to change the trcd and tras settings etc and tweak the performance directly from within windows :D
i used a tool called wpcredit back then, a veeery old tool, i think it was written sometimes in the 80s :lol:

note:
not all registers can be accessed from within windows
not all registers can be changed from within windows
not all registers can be changed at all
many registers have no meaning whatsoever
many registers only change something in combination with other registers, when adjusted individually they do nothing or crash the system when you change them
many registers need to be set to the right setting to work, most settings will crash the system

so this is the most hardcore tweaking there is guys...
its pretty much completely poking in the dark and pure trial and error...
this is actually what bios engineers do at all mainboard manufacturers to tweak the performance of their BIOSes :D
well, they have some documents from intel etc which guide them, but there are very few informations in those docs that actually help.

usually only nvidia, intel, via, amd etc have the full access to the register settings internally, and they dont share those infos with anybody. which does what, and what setting works etc. but even the engineers who actually designed and work with the chipset often DONT know what combinations of settings works, and how and when it works best etc.
there are almost infitie combinations of settings you can try, and then going cold and increasing voltages changes everything again... plus, like i mentioned, many things depend on each other, so once you figure out one thing, another setting might suddenly work that didnt work before :D
(lower cas and tras makes lower PL more stable as a basic example)

tho if your smart you try different settings you know work (boot with 1t, boot with 2t, boot with 333 strap, boot with 266 strap) and then read the register values and see what actually changed :D

there are several people doing this and creating their own "maps" of the register settings, noting which does what, when this setting is set to this or that, how it impacts performance, what other settings work for this register, what side efeccts and relation to other registers it has etc etc.

I was hoping to do this and maybe get some of you to do this as well, so we can build a more complete map of register tweaks and share them between all of us and make it public. so far there are only very few people tweaking like this and their results are usually not shared.

PS, this is a useful tool to compare register dumps and highlight the differences between 2 dumps :D
http://www.download.com/ExamDiff/3000-2248_4-10059626.html?cdlPid=10619470

[LordIT]

Thanks saaya - thats a big adventure!

I installed baredit and selected Selection By Memory Adress; pressed Mem.txt to save:
http://www.abload.de/img/bareditr5w.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=bareditr5w.jpg)

Two different register text files can be compared in ExamDiff:
http://www.abload.de/img/examdiffniw.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=examdiffniw.jpg)

The problem is that every single action in windows cause a change in register. Only a restart of baredit causes changes - partly in different lines. I guess it is easier in DOS isnt it?

I startet my computer and my first action was to a save register file. I did that three times without changing anything in BIOS- but had 6-8 differences in bareedit - partly in different lines.:confused:

Imagine we could find some register lines for CR 1T. What is the second step?

[saaya]

Thanks saaya - thats a big adventure!
yes :D

hmmmm well im not sure why its changing all the time...
let me check with felix88 :D

now you can compare the register dumps with exam dif and note the differences. if i were you id open an excel table and would note down all the registers that change. from left to right, which register, then what setting and name the top column to what configuration in BIOS you had for this particular dump. then try to change those registers manually one by one and see if they affect performance.

[LordIT]

What does happen if I pressed the "write" button? Do I flash into the NB directly. Can the NB be killed by using wrong numbers? Or is it only a change in windows registry that will be deleted after restarting?

http://www.abload.de/img/unbenannti2i.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=unbenannti2i.jpg)

[HDCHOPPER]

careful thier ... bet it writes it into the bios

[saaya]

What does happen if I pressed the "write" button? Do I flash into the NB directly. Can the NB be killed by using wrong numbers? Or is it only a change in windows registry that will be deleted after restarting?

http://www.abload.de/img/unbenannti2i.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=unbenannti2i.jpg)
you directly write into the registers in the chipset afaik.
after a reboot its reset to normal... so nothing to worry about

mmhhhh it might be possible to kill the chipset by writing the wrong stuff to the wrong register... but i find that very hard to believe actually...
its really safe, i havent heard of anybody killing their board this way...

[LordIT]

hmmmm well im not sure why its changing all the time...
let me check with felix88 :D


Does felix88 know?

[aoch88]

I can't get it working @ 1T. Same issue here, it will always go back to 2T.

[LordIT]

There is one EPP profile enabled in the Muskin memory:
http://www.abload.de/img/2tc4kt.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=2tc4kt.jpg)

I changed from 2T to 1T in EPP profile:
http://www.abload.de/img/flash1tx0f5.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=flash1tx0f5.jpg)

Adjusted the EPP settings in BIOS (multipler 4e) but couldnt get 1T:
http://www.abload.de/img/cpuzv6nx.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=cpuzv6nx.jpg)

Enabled a second EPP profile with SPD-tool which is 1T basically. But I think its not a real profile because of the funny timings:
http://www.abload.de/img/epp2profileuakk.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=epp2profileuakk.jpg)

Could I get it with a real 1T EPP profile for DDR-2? Does anybody have it?