~$1500 PC build help.

[JayG30]

I'm planning a new computer for my father. Last time I was in the market was about 2 years ago when C2D was first hitting the market. I remember talks of many new Intel chipsets (P/G/X), tons of new CPU's, and even some AMD stuff...but didn't follow which were a hit or miss. Needless to say, I'm a bit out of touch and looking for some input.

First, this computer isn't about maximum OC, Pi scores, Folding, gaming, or whatever. I tell you this because I want to make it clear that things like stability, data security/backup, relatively quiet operation, classy looks, and ease of operation can NOT be overlooked. This computer is going to be used for productivity by my father. I will be OC'ing it, but will be keeping it on the modest side for peace of mind that issues won't arise. I know XS is more geared towards "extreme" but I really don't frequent any other computer forums because frankly, they don't seem to know what they are talking about.

I have approx. $1,500+/- to work with. I need to replace the whole tower, including the case, and the monitor. I've done a bit of research myself but would like to hear some ideas from you guys. One specific question I have is why do I see the E8400 C2D constantly being recommended over the similarly prices Q6600 C2Q? I'm also not the best at RAM selection, so help there is greatly appreciated.

A few criteria when offering me builds. I live in NJ, so if you pull prices from newegg, sales tax must be factored in. Any rebates can be factored into final price. If you wish to only advice on tower parts that is fine, but leave some reasonable money for a quality monitor.

Any information that is unclear or I did not provide, let me know. I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions asking for clarifications of why to choose one part over another. :)

Thanks.

[BlueAqua]

You can build a really nice system for under $750. So what I would do is spend about that on the tower and put the rest of the money into the monitor and peripherals. Make it enjoyable to use. I doubt he needs a quad core because you didn't mention any extreme applications he wants to run that would utilize one. The Intel E8400 is an excellent choice.

How important is the looks of the case?
This is an area where you can spend ~250 on a pretty nice case, but you could also spend $30 that would house the same machine.

Get a nice 24" monitor, quality mouse and keyboard, maybe even a webcam if he's into that.

Slickdeals has an active thread about building a good machine for cheap here:

http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?sduid=0&t=553826&highlight=build

If you use your money wisely you can really make it go far for $1500.

[tact¡cal]

e8400 is recommended over Q6600 because quad core really isn't needed. someday it will be utilized in games, but for general computing it's just not necessary.
here is what i build for my dad:

Antec P180 mini - $190
Corsair 450VX - $75
ASUS P5E-VM HDMI - $140
Intel Core2Duo E8400 - $175
G.Skill F2-6400CL5D-4GBPQ - $80
ZeroTherm BTF90 - $45
Lite-On DVD iHAS120-04 - $27
Rosewill Floppy Drive + Card Reader RCR-FD200 - $40
Creative Inspire 245 speakers - $25
Logitech S510 wireless desktop - $58
Western Digital Raptor 150GB x2 RAID1 - $340
SAMSUNG ToC T190 19" monitor - $260
Total: $1455

prices included shipping all from newegg
i didn't factor in any rebates... so that may even out with your sales tax

[Yeknom]

IMHO, Raptors aren't really needed for that computer :shrug:
A regular HDD is probably sufficient.
And Tactical, what about the video card? I'd recommend maybe a HD3850, since that will take care of practically everything you'll ever need outside of running games with very high AA/Res/settings
I also would advise against a wireless keyboard/mouse combo, since the batteries drain pretty fast.

[JayG30]

Keyboard, mouse, speakers, etc. are already taken care of. Have tons of very nice parts already for that. :)

I figured the case question would come up. I prefer a minimalistic and classy approach to cases, meaning no crazy designs or cheap plastic junk. The other issues that come into play with the case are going to be cooling (remember reliable) and how well it isolates noise (remember relatively quiet) and making sure it is of sufficient size for the components chosen. I have a feeling that case design will probably be best left up to me to research as I'm very picky. The last computer build I spend more time making that choice than any other part! Currently I'm really liking the Lian Li PC-A09 (http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product06.php?pr_index=155&cl_index=1&sc_index=25&ss_index=62). After seeing THIS (http://www.million-dollar-pc.com/systems-2008/mdpc/mdpc-black-copper.htm), which I believe is the PC-A09, I sort of fell in love with it, but have to do some reading about noise/cooling/and space to accommodate whatever parts I decide on.

So to answer your question, I'd say $100-$150 on the case is most likely where I'm aiming.

The monitor is what I've currently been trying to figure out. I feel like if I can figure out what to get for a monitor it will make it much easier to give a budget to work with. And I agree I don't want to skimp to much here as it can make or break the enjoyment of using the system. I'm currently looking at the BenQ G2400WD and a few others. I was seriously looking at the new Dell 24" but factoring price and some forum comments on it I'm looking elsewhere. I'll be checking the HardForum display section as they seem to have a lot of discussions on this.

As for the Dual vs. Quad thing. This computer, although primary being for my fathers work, will get used for other household things occasionally by me and others. It would not be far fetched to think that Photoshop CS3 and Lightroom get used on this computer as I'm currently using them on the other computers in the house. I have a DSLR and am actively learning photography and my mother and father both like to take pictures of family events and vacations. Also things like music and video encoding will most certainly get done. I use CAD on a regular basis and he occasionally does as well. Also, my father doesn't like to upgrade often, so future proofing is always a good thing with him, lol. Do people still think that a Dual would be a better bet than a Quad? I could care less about gaming on this particular machine.

Also, should I purchase 2GB or 4GB of RAM? How about DDR3 RAM, is it worth bothering with yet? Perhaps for when Nehalem comes more of a reality to general consumers (probably a year) to minimize any upgrade costs?

Also, I was thinking of running two decent sized 7200PRM SATA 3.0/Gb drives in RAID 1 to prevent data lose which I said was a concern. Is there any issues with this? Anything in particular I should look at when choosing a motherboard with this in mind as I'm not going to have funds for a RAID controller or anything. Not interested in paying the premium for raptors and don't think I will find any need for them to be honest.

OK, wow, sorry for the LONG post but I think that gets most of the thoughts in my mind out there. :)

[BlueAqua]

I love Lian Li cases, can't go wrong there, great taste.

I would love to say getting a quad would future proof you a little bit but I just don't think they'll be that great for average consumers for years. A faster dual core will put out a lot less heat and will run most of your applications faster. It's not like they can't render or crunch decently too, it just might take a few more minutes.

I would stick to DDR2 ram, there is no real world advantage with DDR3 yet. It's slight, but still very expensive for the amount of performance gained. Your money is better spent elsewhere. You might as well get a good 2x2gb kit.

As far as a motherboard I would go with something like an Asus P5Q-Deluxe or another high feature P45 board.

Hard drives I would go for large capacity and if you require data backup Raid 1 would do well. A pair of WD 640MB drives for $85 each would do nicely.

I don't know anything currently on monitors, I have a 24" Dell 2407wfp and think it's great, has been for almost 2 years now.

[JayG30]

BlueAqua, I appreciate your help! :)

I was seriously looking at the Dell 2408WFP. Where I work, VERY large gov. contractor, the company deals heavily with Dell (as well as Cisco). I SHOULD be able to get a pretty decent rebate. It will still come out more expensive than other options though I believe. At $600 retail that is quite a dent in the budget. The glowing review at Anandtech first got me interested in it, but comments in there own forums as well as others are starting to point me in other directions that happen to be more affordable as well. And to be honest, 24" is going to be way bigger than needed, but for the price of the BenQ and a few others it just seems to make sense. As well as I'm a big fan of 1920x1200 resolution ever since I had it on a small 15.4" laptop monitor and I just don't like how many of the other widescreen resolutions look for some reason! :p:

[BlueAqua]

If you haven't checked this out it might be helpful too:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185136

[adamsleath]

perkams guide updated...

i'd go higher than the 450vx. (550vx or better)

i'd go 2x 6400aaks...heaps more storage; good drives...maybe even just one.to save cash for the 24" if you go that way...but this is for your dad not you :slapass: 22"'s are also cheap.

p5q-e is an option (P45), but the p5e-vm is known good board at low price for a mATX, particularly if you only need onboard vid. :)

q6600; your dad probably isnt gaming, or are you using the computer aswell ?:lol:

[tact¡cal]

the p5e-vm hdmi has onboard video that is quite sufficient for what his dad needs. most people old enough to have kids on this forum don't need super high resolution so a 19" monitor is perfect. hard drives will be your only performance bottleneck so the raptors will help with that a little. and i can't see any reason why he would need more than 150gb. and there's no reason you'd need anything more than a 450VX.

[BlueAqua]

Have you thought about just buying a Dell? You can actually get them pretty cheap sometimes.

[tact¡cal]

^^lol, good point. can't beat 3 year onsite support. especially when you're not the support.

[JayG30]

:rofl:

After dealing with Dell computers and service for some time now, I won't be putting anyone in my family through that. I'm not even going to consider it an option. I've had more luck getting manufacturers to handle hardware failures than Dell. Plus I know that when things go bad my father won't be willing to wait for his computer to be fixed by Dell and I'll be getting the call. The last computer I built for him still works as good as the day I built it over 10 years ago. I can't really say that about the assortment of Dell computers laying around work.

As far as onboard graphics, I think I'll have plenty of money for a nice card. I've never really been a fan of onboard graphics. I don't know how good onboard has gotten, but I'm sure for not to much money a dedicated GPU will help at least some activities.

Perkam's guide has given me some direction. I'm doing some of my own research as well and will make changes as I see fit.

I have a question about graphic cards though.

The 4870 & 4850 seem to be the cards of choice. I'm thinking the 4850 will be enough and the price is a good amount lower. Would this be a good choice? How about heat and noise? I've heard these cards run hot and can get loud which doesn't mix well with my build. Does a simple aftermarket cooler fix both these issues? Should I bother looking into Nvidia cards? I've actually never had a ATI card on a desktop, always Nvidia.

[tact¡cal]

:rofl:

After dealing with Dell computers and service for some time now, I won't be putting anyone in my family through that. I'm not even going to consider it an option. I've had more luck getting manufacturers to handle hardware failures than Dell. Plus I know that when things go bad my father won't be willing to wait for his computer to be fixed by Dell and I'll be getting the call. The last computer I built for him still works as good as the day I built it over 10 years ago. I can't really say that about the assortment of Dell computers laying around work.

As far as onboard graphics, I think I'll have plenty of money for a nice card. I've never really been a fan of onboard graphics. I don't know how good onboard has gotten, but I'm sure for not to much money a dedicated GPU will help at least some activities.

Perkam's guide has given me some direction. I'm doing some of my own research as well and will make changes as I see fit.

I have a question about graphic cards though.

The 4870 & 4850 seem to be the cards of choice. I'm thinking the 4850 will be enough and the price is a good amount lower. Would this be a good choice? How about heat and noise? I've heard these cards run hot and can get loud which doesn't mix well with my build. Does a simple aftermarket cooler fix both these issues? Should I bother looking into Nvidia cards? I've actually never had a ATI card on a desktop, always Nvidia.

is your father a gamer? if not, then buying a graphics card will have two negative effect with 0 positive effects.
1: waste of money
2: excess heat

especially the new radeon cards, in a small office room just by swapping a 7600GT with a radeon 4850 after 30 minutes the temperature increases over 5c. after 2 hours temps increase approx 10c.
new video cards dump a ridiculous amount of heat

the p5e-vm pc's i built coupled with the antec p180 mini and their 200m fan, doesn't raise the ambient temp of the room 1c. even after weeks of running.

the onboard video on the p5e-vm plays blu-ray movies with no issue, and non-demanding games just fine. for example, runs CS:S at 1440x900 with standard settings at an average of 45-50 fps.

with the parts i specd out above, it produces 0 heat into the room, and runs under 10db. i think the lightbulb in the lamp on his desk is louder.

[BlueAqua]

I have to agree with tactical on this one. Today's onboard video, specifically the asus p5e-vm is quite good. It will handle any task in windows and just about any high definition playback without issue. I would not get one of the new ATI cards for anyone but a gamer.

As far as Dell goes, I haven't had any issues with them. I don't buy their desktops as I enjoy building mine, but it's what I would recommend to relatives, even my own parents. I hate being tech support to relatives. Now, I'll build my friends rigs all day long because I can build for a good purpose. Building gaming machines are fun, building everyday machines can be pretty boring.

[tact¡cal]

I have to agree with tactical on this one. Today's onboard video, specifically the asus p5e-vm is quite good. It will handle any task in windows and just about any high definition playback without issue. I would not get one of the new ATI cards for anyone but a gamer.

As far as Dell goes, I haven't had any issues with them. I don't buy their desktops as I enjoy building mine, but it's what I would recommend to relatives, even my own parents. I hate being tech support to relatives. Now, I'll build my friends rigs all day long because I can build for a good purpose. Building gaming machines are fun, building everyday machines can be pretty boring.

amen to being a support tech for relatives.

and the boring part really defines what is wrong with people on this forum building something for "office" use. you try to make the build exciting and interesting, when exciting = noisy, hot and unstable. when you're looking for quiet, cool and stable.

[JayG30]

I think that is where I differ from most. I find tweaking a machine to be stable and quiet while remaining powerful the fun part. The last machine I built was a E6400 with an Asus P5B board. I tweaked that to run at 3.2Ghz, while remaining nearly silent and keeping temperatures very low. It's been running steady for 2 years now, with only one problem coming up which was a faulty PSU which was replaced under warranty. To be honest, support for my father is going to happen REGARDLESS of where or how I get his computer. He always turns to me to get it done fast. As far as Dell, I have a few hundred PSU's sitting in the office near me that are all dead. All within 6 months. Lets not even get started on hard drives and such.

So everyone really thinks that the onboard will be able to handle something like CAD drawings at 1920x1200 resolution without issues? What about the fact that a dedicated GPU offloads workload put on the CPU? How about if I plan to run Vista?

It just seems like you guys are saying gaming (and perhaps 3D modeling/animation which I do, but haven't discussed) is the only reason to even need a graphics card. If so there sure are a lot of people in this forum that need to stop spending so much money on them.

Oh and I think I'm going to get 2 of these hard drives (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822145166). Factoring in the price and the reviews on storagereview.com they seem like a no brainier choice.

And the BenQ monitor I mentioned earlier seems like it is becoming a real winner in my eyes. Looks like I'll be going for that as well, unless he says he just really doesn't want a 24" monitor.

[tact¡cal]

i have integrated gaphics on all of my machines except my dedicated gaming machine, which has a radeon 4850. all my other machines (mostly media centers w/blu-ray drives) run the Intel GMA X3500 on the P5E-VM.

if you are building a machine for cad work then you would want a quadro fx or firegl anyway.

[JayG30]

if you are building a machine for cad work then you would want a quadro fx or firegl anyway.

Yea.....if that was even financially feasible. I know plenty of people, including myself, that use high end mainstream graphics card for CAD and they work very well. If I was building a machine with no budget and dedicated to being a CAD workstation than yea. Not the case 99% of the time though. Speaking of those Quadro cards, someone was telling me just last week that it looks like 2 or 3 of them got stolen from my work here! Management told them to just "buy more" and not worry about it! Crazy right?

[JayG30]

Question. With Lian Li cases, if I want to use there 5.25 bezels to blend the front of there cases does it matter what DVD burner I purchase? I seem to remember reading something about it only working with certain drives due to front bezel layout. Trying to iron out some of the final details.

[JayG30]

Darn newegg prices started fluctuating on me. :mad:

Wondering if anyone has any thoughts on PSU selection. I was considering the;

CORSAIR CMPSU-520HX 520W (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139001)-$100 ($80 after rebate)

Reason I was considering this is after using a modular PSU I loved how much easier it was to handle cable management. Also silentpcreviews lists it as one of the quietest PSU's behind the MUCH more expensive Enermax MODU82/PRO82's. How would this stack up against the Corsair CMPSU-550VX 550W?

I also was pretty set on the HITACHI Deskstar 7K750 but than they decided to raise the price. So now it is $110 after rebates (was like $90 before). The Samsung Spinpoint F1 is I think $120 and looks be perform better. The WD Caviar Black is $140 but seems to have THE best performance. I'm not sure which to choose now. Here is a good comparison chart (http://www.storagereview.com/php/benchmark/suite_v4.php?typeID=10&testbedID=4&osID=6&raidconfigID=1&numDrives=1&devID_0=368&devID_1=361&devID_2=348&devCnt=3) of the 1TB versions (they don't have reviews of the 750GB but I'm sure it is similar).

[JayG30]

Also, regarding RAM. There are some really good discounts on newegg. Would any of these be a better choice than the G.Skills recommended in Perkam's thread.

OCZ Reaper HPC Edition (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227267)
OCZ Platinum Edition (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227280) -DDR2 1000!
mushkin 4GB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146731)
CORSAIR 4GB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145184)
OCZ 4GB (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227248)

[BlueAqua]

I'm pretty sure you can use most DVD drives with the front bezel. The Lite-ons have a rectangular button which should work better with the Lian Li rectangular button that goes over the top, but most drives should work fine. I have a Samsung DVD drive that has a circular button and works fine also.

Corsair is a good pick, the HX series is top notch. I have an HX620 that I really like. I just bought an HX1000 however it just doesn't work right, kept crashing my system randomly. I still wouldn't hesitate to buy another Corsair PSU though.

As far as the ram goes I have a set of the G.Skill PQ's 4gb kit and the Corsair Dominator PC8500 4gb kit and they seem about equal. I think they might even use the same chips, but I can't tell a difference. I think out of what you have selected there, they might all be decent choices as I think each brand is a quality brand. I still have a thing for Mushkin ram ever since my older Redlines, they were amazing. The OCZ Reaper 4gb kit seems to have got a lot of good reviews. One thing I like about the G.Skills is that there is no MIR.

[JayG30]

Just to make sure I don't misread you, you don't think the OCZ Platinum Edition that is PC2 8000 would really offer any benefit over the other PC2 6400 RAM?

The prices are ridiculously low on all these that it makes it really hard to choose if they all will O/C and perform similar. I might just have to make a decision based on looks. :) Something with a nice black finish to go along with the lian case, black asus board, and PERHAPS a Thermalright True Black Ultra-120 eXtreme (I know there are better performace/price but man it looks so nice!).

[adamsleath]

and perhaps 3D modeling/animation which I do
then you could justify a graphics card. - that's what my dad would say (lol) "the computer isnt for games" (my dad would say):hehe:
520 and 620 hx modular psu's have tested well, and run 'quiet' at 'normal' power draw...ie <400W

24"..."quite a dent in the budget"
but there are very good ones and also cheaper ones...

benq fp241w, one of the best, is around $500+usd i think.
benq g2400w cheaper.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/filter/displays?price_min=nmin&price_max=nmax&score=2&section_id=6&filter=16&manufacturer=0&submit.x=12&submit.y=14
there are others to look at no doubt, dell do make some good ones.

[JayG30]

Thanks for the monitor reviews link. That's another one I can read through.

The fp241w seems to become impossible to get anymore. Discontinued I believe. Newegg has deactivated it.

I've read at a lot of places the G2400WD is the one I've been looking at and can find for sale. It is around $380. Biggest complaints I hear are due to it being a TN and view angle inherent of the technology. I think a different type of panel would probably be best as fast response time isn't exactly important if it's not for gaming, but to get something with better color accuracy/uniformity/view angle/etc. I'd need to step to another technology and spend considerably more for that size monitor. I'm going to ask him if he wants a 24" or if he rather just have a 20-22".