Building phase change

[Charles Wirth]

I picked up another woods freezer and ripped the guts out of it without breaking the lines. I will design a few evaporators to fit on the CPU, chipset, and ram.

The freezer was $157 and it took me 5 hours to completely disassemble and clean up.

I picked up the tools to build and braze copper tubing and have a good idea on how to build the finned tube evaporators to function properly.

I also have several engineers to fall back on for assistance since I do not have any HVAC training other than the research I have already done.

Lots of pictures to come,

-ooops can mod move this to phase change cooling section? my bad

[toofast]

I look forward to your piccies so i can copy you :D

[Charles Wirth]

Parts list

blow torch w/ flux and solder $20.00
Half dozen 1/4" ID sleeves $2.00
Tube cutter with bur removal and reflare after cut. $4.95
50' of 1/4" soft copper tube $14.00
4' of cap tube from the compressor $4.95
35' of steel tube for condensor came with compressor
R-134A recharge kit from auto parts store $10.00 w/R-134A
2 shreader valves (1 spare) .95

Home depot prices

I am reworking a copper waterblock into a evaporator
I have access to evac and relaim system for freon.
I will have my HVAC cert next week. "mini" test required to get freon in larger quantity.
The condensor will be switched to a radiator type rather than 1/4" tube.
I have some seriously kick ass fans in ATM for 19" rack mount frames that I will use to cool the condensor.

And now comes the pictures, 56K warning

Gonna throw in pics of "toys" too so please install drool bib now.

[AndrOvr]

U wana do something like this?
http://213.63.186.163/attachment.php?s=&postid=36181
http://213.63.186.163/attachment.php?s=&postid=36182
http://213.63.186.163/attachment.php?s=&postid=36183
http://http://213.63.186.163/attachment.php?s=&postid=36245
http://213.63.186.163/attachment.php?s=&postid=36244

Now it does -46c / -52f :D


Web cam pics suck :(

[Charles Wirth]

First up is the Compressor, pulled from freezer. I installed the valve (pictured)
http://fugger.netfirms.com/comp.jpg

New Evopator coil, playing around till I get my block finished.
http://fugger.netfirms.com/evap.jpg

Rittal fan 500CFM 110v, machine pictured is under NDA.
http://fugger.netfirms.com/fan.jpg

New toy, Panasonic TH-50PHD3U 50" plasma display for $1995 used a few hours. will be recessed into wall. sorry for the crappy pic but I will post more when mounted.
http://fugger.netfirms.com/flatp.jpg

Old toy, computer controlled 10' Flat bed router with 6" depth. great for fabriaction, signs, cutting holes in cases, recessed wall mounting for plasma display =P, milling down copper blocks with percision. Centra being cut into letter pictured.
http://fugger.netfirms.com/router.jpg

The Lytron unit in action, 65F under full load. Machine "almost" pictured is under NDA.
http://fugger.netfirms.com/lytron2.jpg

Love at first sight. I know core routers are more impressive but this puppy is the bomb. Also pictured in a rare pair of Kenwood 72x.
http://fugger.netfirms.com/giga.jpg

Here is a JV-4 setup for dyesub outputting new bannars for transfer. sorry for the close shot, much of the lab areas are restricted from taking pictures. You would be surprised how much we do in house.
http://fugger.netfirms.com/SGI.jpg

[Charles Wirth]

Originally posted by AndrOvr
U wana do something like this?

Web cam pics suck :(

Yep, nice temps.

For now I will drop the evap coil in my water bucket for nice sub zero temps till I get my socket 478 Evap done.

I will also attempt using the valves to build a quick release.

I have too many projects going on at once, so bare with me.

[DisposableHero]

ah zoom out

[Charles Wirth]

Originally posted by DisposableHero
ah zoom out

That takes all the fun out of owning a 4 megapixel camera :D .

I cannot post wide angle pictures from in the labs.

I will resize them smaller in the future.

[morphling1]

Yeah, I had to switch to 1600*1200 to see anything :)
Something like that is definetly on my to do list.

[DisposableHero]

Originally posted by FUGGER


That takes all the fun out of owning a 4 megapixel camera :D .

I cannot post wide angle pictures from in the labs.

I will resize them smaller in the future.

sweet camera

[BigBadger]

I'm in the middle of putting together a R404a refrigeration system. For those who dont know R404a is the refrigerant for seriously low temps (R134a is general purpose stuff).

Some pics:

Compressor/Condensor:
http://www.steve.bage.btinternet.co.uk/ZBR.jpg

Evoporators (one for gfx card and one for cpu:
http://www.steve.bage.btinternet.co.uk/Evap2.JPG

The system is designed to run at -40 evap temp under full (170W+) load.
I'm currectly in the process of getting a case made.

[JCviggen]

consider it moved.

FUGGER, my friend, you do seem to have a lot of cash lying around :D
Good luck with the phase change thing.

[UaZa]

Originally posted by BigBadger
I'm in the middle of putting together a R404a refrigeration system. For those who dont know R404a is the refrigerant for seriously low temps (R134a is general purpose stuff).

Some pics:

Compressor/Condensor:
http://www.steve.bage.btinternet.co.uk/ZBR.jpg

Evoporators (one for gfx card and one for cpu:
http://www.steve.bage.btinternet.co.uk/Evap2.JPG

The system is designed to run at -40 evap temp under full (170W+) load.
I'm currectly in the process of getting a case made.
BigBadger - Nice & Clean setup... can u PM me with some more info about these evap..
ANd you plan to run a dual loop? hmm... now thats nice ;)

Fugger - Looks really good

[killersushi]

Great work BigBadger you should sell those and make a fortune :)

[BigBadger]

Great work BigBadger you should sell those and make a fortune

Hmmm, the money this thing has cost me to put together i'm not sure there is anyone out there who would be interested!!!

I shudder to think what the custom made case is going to cost to house the refrigeration unit.....

[ssjwizard]

badger if your going for an extreme refridgerant you should go for R409A its got about 6C lower boil temp than R404.

[dmitriyaz]

hey, guys!
great job you all.

i am doing the same thing...(not yet) :hehe:
and i have some questions.

my dehumidifier (r134a) has a 740w compressor, and the temperature of the evaporator coil is about -35*C. i suspect that its designed to work with LOWER TEMPS, BUT HIGHER HEAT LOADS than i want it to. since the evaporator coil is pretty big, i am thinking that its designed to work with about 1000w heat load.

so the question is: how do make it work with higher performance, temperature-wise (-50*c, i'm hoping), and lower the limit of the heatload it will work at. in other words, i don't need it to cool something that is 1000w, i only need it to cool my CPU and what not, 250w max.

i am sorry for my ignorance, i didn't exactly do my homework, but in order to do the above, do i make the capline thinner and/or the evaporator wider? that way there will be a bigger drop in pressure, therefore lower temps.

or is the compressor designed to work with only this wide of a capline and decreasing it would kill the compressor?

please respond: FUGGER, AndrOvr, BigBadger :)
thanks in advance guys,

btw, MAKE THIS THREAD STICKY!
I dont see what else could be, in the "phase change" forum...

[BigBadger]

Hmmm R409a..........I'll have to look into it, not sure if my compressor would be compatible, the manufacturer (Tecumseh) does not list R409a.

dmitriyaz, basically if you want to get lower temps with a smaller heat load you increase the length of you capillary tube (assume your using a capillary not a Thermostatic Expansion Valve) so that you get a higher pressure on the hot side and a lower pressure on the cold side.......The problem here is you need a compressor that can cope with the higher pressure differential and also R134a has too high a boiling point for serious low temp applications. getting the capillary tube length right is by all accounts a bit hit or miss, I’m hoping I get it pretty much right first time.

By the way, I eventually got a price for the case for the refrigeration system.....£150 !!!! This is too much for my pocket so it's out with the sheet of aluminium and a pop rivet gun, maybe wont be pretty but with the money i'm saving I'll get a Coolermaster case for the PC !

[dmitriyaz]

thanks BigBadger :)
and i thought, why is there a capline coal in my dehumidifier already?
a waste of copper?
now i know.
you know i like to work with numbers better than educated guesses,
are there any formulas that you can think of that i should know?
involving pressure/temearture differential, properties of freons?
thanks again. :toast:

[Charles Wirth]

I didnt know about the length of the evap tube would change the actuall end temp.

I shortened it from about 6 feet to 1 foot.

I built my first Evap already, and it works better than the original evap coil.

I used soft copper refreidge tube and remade the condensor into a coil.

I picked up a recharge kit from pepboys for $20.00 and charged the system myself with about 50psi charge.

My first evap is small, just a working prototype, the second should be more like Uaza, or possibly using the volcano 7+ sealed up with a little slice and dice action on the internal thin fins.

It is very easy to make an evaporator. After I completed my CPU block I will move onto chipset, memory and GPU.

And after I get those done I graduate to a larger compressor.

So far so good, completely rebuilt the system and it still works, woohoo!

[dmitriyaz]

i just got an idea :wave:

this is what the regular phase change looks like:
http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/571648.jpg
this is my idea: put the capline inside the evaporator exhaust.
the catch is: after cooling your CPU, the evaporated freon is doing nothing on the way back to the compressor.
why not make it COOL THE CAPLINE, so that when freon comes out of it, into the evaporator, it will be ever cooler!
the same principle (kind of) they use on turbocharged cars:
make exhaust work to the benefit of the intake.
heres a visual aid.
(the brighter red--the hotter, the brighter blue--the colder).
http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/571649.jpg
as you can see, the evaporator is colder than in the reagular setup (the 1st pic)

[Charles Wirth]

Your diagram is wrong, the pump goes into the condensor then to the capilary where it expands in the evaporator.

The compressor creates heat when it compresses and it freezes when it expands.

I understand what you are suggesting, I will see if I can get the return to cool the condensor line.

[dmitriyaz]

Originally posted by FUGGER
Your diagram is wrong, the pump goes into the condensor then to the capilary where it expands in the evaporator.
thats exactly whats on the diagram. no?:slap:

[Charles Wirth]

Well kinda, I saw "condensor airflow" and the arrow pointing the wrong way. I see the little black arrow in one of the diagrams.

[dmitriyaz]

:hehe: no, condenrser is that big thing with stripes all over it,
and the blue arrow points where the airflow (fan) would cool the condenser.

a quick question: i need to make the capline out of something more flexible than copper. suggestions?
it will be inside a silicone tube that would take cold freon from the CPU block (the evaporator) back to the compressor.

also, BigBabder, what is that big black round thing in between the compressor and the condernsor?

[BigBadger]

dmitriyaz, the 'round thing' is a liquid receiver. It is actually located after the condenser. It collects liquid out of the condensor and feeds it to the metering capillary tube, ensuring no vapour finds it's way into the tube. A large receiver is important in a system where the heat load can vary considerably, such as cpu cooling.

The idea of using the cold vapour exiting the evaporator to cool the condensed liquid is a good one (sub-cooling is the term i think). Commercial systems sometimes have a special heat exchanger to do just this, I'm going to coil the capillary around the vapour return line to get a bit of 'sub-cooling' in my system. I'm not so sure about your idea with the silicon tube, refrigeration systems can generate quite high pressures and also under some conditions partial vacuum, silicon tube would not be up to the job. I'm using special flexible refrigerant hose for my rig (PTFE tube with braided steel outer), it's not as flexible as silicon but it's better than copper tube and it's more than man enough for any pressure or temperature the system may generate.

I'll post some more pictures when there is anything worth showing you.

[Charles Wirth]

Thanks for the info Badger

[dmitriyaz]

thanks Badger,
if you guys noticed, this thread is now sticky.
so anything that has to do with direct dye phase chage (not water chillers), goes here :thumbsup: :hehe:

[BigBadger]

Just thought I'd post this link to a good site that explains the basics of refrigeration.....nothing in depth but a good place to start for anyone new to refrigeration http://oberon.ark.com/~airekool/rb1.htm

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Badger.. If you put enough freon into your system.. like to the point were you start getting liquid slugging.. That's not good.. We both know this.. That is the point of an accumulator.. You can also buy sub-coolers .. which use this extra freon to cool the condensor.. I'm sure you know about those as well..

If I put in the extra R290.. to get slugging.. I am going to wrap the extra evaporator coil around part of the condensor tubing.. to do some sub cooling of my own.. :)

With this 1/4 or 1/3HP compressor I have though.. R-12 compressor at that.. I shouldn't need to have an over dose of freon to get good cooling.. I am working on the system tonite.. since my system was running in an R-134a compressor.. I have to be sure to vacuum and clean out the condensor and evaporator real good.. so I can put it into this R-12 mineral oil compressor.. and then I am charging it with R290 (propane).. Tonite I am doing just that.. Cleaning everything out.. and putting the system together.. Most likely tomorrow I will spend the time getting the flare valves that I need to hook everything up to my propane tank.

[BigBadger]

|PuNiSh3R|
Not quite sure what your plan is there m8 but if you get it wrong I'll be able to hear the bang from here (I'm in Aberdeen Scotland)!!!

[dmitriyaz]

great article!
but aside from how Thermostatic Expansion Valve works and why (which is crucial by itself),
there is really nothing new.
the same guy who wrote it (great writing style, by the way),
also wrote a very detailed guide on HVAC here:
www.refridgirationbasics.com
BUT IT IS NOT FREE! its like a hundred canadian dollars, whatever that is.
:bsod: :brick:
does anyone want to buy it and then share? :toast:

[aenigma]

Originally posted by BigBadger
|PuNiSh3R|
Not quite sure what your plan is there m8 but if you get it wrong I'll be able to hear the bang from here (I'm in Aberdeen Scotland)!!!

He is making a phase change system using R290,whats not to understand? :)
I have built several systems using R290,nice cheap refrigerant...

[BigBadger]

Originally posted by aenigma


He is making a phase change system using R290,whats not to understand? :)
I have built several systems using R290,nice cheap refrigerant...

What I don't understand is he states he has a R12 compressor.....which of course you cannot re-fill anymore, then he said it was a R134a compressor !? Adding to my confusion he goes on to say he will use a R12 oil but will charge the system with R290 (propane) !?!.
Now I know that R134a systems are not compatible with R12 and I would hazard a guess that neither is compatible with propane. Basically I'm pretty confused. One thing for sure I would be very unhappy having a high pressure explosive propane gas circulating in my PC.......one leak+one spark(fan motor for instance)=BIG BANG !!!!!!!!.

I'm curious about your R290 system......did you use a recurculating system complete with compressor and condensor or just a 'total loss' system just using a propand bottle venting to atmosphere?

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Ok, I have an r-134a compressor.. it's 1/20HP.. I was using that compressor with 134a in it..

I just picked up an R12 compressor.. which of course uses mineral oil.. the 134a compressor uses ester oil.

It doesn't matter what freon you put into the R12 compressor.. as long as the freon doesn't contain ANY oil other then mineral oil. Propane is of course is a pure gas.. it has no oils in it.. therefore it is compatible with R12 compressor with no retrofitting.

I believe that cans of straight r-134a are pure.. with no ester oil in them.. I am going to check that out today though.

So .. IF the 134a has NO ester oil in it.. then I can freely use it in the R12 compressor..

Propane is a pure refrigerant.. meaning that you can put it in an R12 compressor.. R22.. 134a.. it doesn't matter.. it is pure.. has no oil in it.. BTW, R134a is propane.. with additives to make it non-flammable and make the propane molecules heavier.. and supposedly to make it perform better.. but it all comes down to.. propane is lighter.. which is bad.. but it still runs :banana::banana::banana::banana:loads better then 134a.. heh..

I am going to fill with propane.. then add a tiny bit of 134a if it has no oil in it that is.. That will make my propane heavier.. and take care of most of the flammable propane.. making it a very nice system..

But! WHO KNOWS! i didn't pay for this compressor.. I don't really care.. lol.. Just go out on garbage night.. and pick them up from AC's.. or refrigerators :) Make sure you take the overload relay starter caps too :)

Also.. I don't nkow what you mean by recirculating the r290.. I am just going to fill my system with the r290 through the low side suction valve.. heh

[|PuNiSh3R|]

remember.. Refrigerators/freezers run R12 compressors.. AC units run R22.. Both compressors run mineral oil.

If you turn the compressor upside and let it sit like that for a while.. and then come and vac it.. you'll get a large junk of the mineral oil out.. I believe you'd still have to run an AC flush product though.. who knows.. ester is the best oil to run.. it's fairly cheap.. soaks up water like a sponge.. and is compatible with all of todays easily obtainable freons.. unless you are HVAC cert. you won't get your hands on R22 or R12.. unless u got a friend in the biz of course..

[|PuNiSh3R|]

I just tested it.. I sprayed the R-134a onto the ground.. it left no residue.. I sprayed it on my hand.. I felt no oil..

Then I tipped the can upside down.. sprayed the liquid out.. It left a quick frost bite on the cement for a split second.. no residue..

So .. there are NO oils in r-134a.. which means that it SHOULD be useable in my mineral oil system

[aenigma]

The R134a I had,it had quite a bit of oil in it.But it said right on it that it had oil....

Yes you can use R290 in whatever you want.
I use it in my phase change systems,not spraying it on things ;)

Also no propane wont blow up that easily :rolleyes:
I have evaced systems full of propane(just let the propane out) then immediately went to work on them soldering....

I have built many phase change systems using R290 as the refrigerant,my last one was a dual phase cascade system.
The one I am using to chill my liquid is just a dual phase system.(1HP and 1/2HP)

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Hey anigma.. you are such a f4g.. lol.. it's me.. icefoundry.. from AIM.. rofl

Besides.. I won't listen to your "propane isn't really flammable"

cuz you are just a crazy SOB with propane tanks in your bedroom :)

Blar.. it's not really that flammable.. It is.. but it isn't.. just have good air flow and it's fine

[libertate]

Hey guys, this thread has me wanting to build a DIY
phase-change of my own..... I need a grocery list tho...

I'm a complete n00b at phase-change, I don't even own
a soldering iron hehe......

What should I keep an eye out for? A full size refrigerator
or maybe a deep-freezer? Also, can I get some reccomendations
on the types of places that would have these sorts of things
cheap/free?

Aside from a refrigerator/freezer/ AC, what tools/equip am I
going to need?

Like what will I need to put together the evaporator to go
on the cpu?


Thanks for any help, I know those are alot of questions :)

[Charles Wirth]

At the start of this thread I listed the basic stuff needed to start tinkering in this area.

I reccomend going with R134A to start as it is very easy to obtain without a license from a autoparts store with correct PSI guage.

I used a new freezer from best buy for $157 to start with.

[libertate]

Ok, another question, does a phase change system have
colder temps with a higher hp compressor? For example,
I found a 6 ft stand-up freezer that's 6 yrs old for $195...
I think it costed ~$600 new......

What would be the advantages of ripping the equipment off
that as opposed to just a regular stand-up fridge? A higher power
compressor I guess?

And also, I'm thinking of using propane, would that be compatible
with just about any compressor I use?

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Yes, propane is compatible with any compressor.. I wouldn't even :banana::banana::banana::banana: with 134a.. to expensive..

You will need a refrigeration vacuum pump.. a set of R-12 gauges.. and hoses to go with it..

The advantages to buying a refrigerator or freezer is they already matched up the right amount of cap tube.. the right dryer.. and what not... that up right freezer might have a rather powerful compressor in it.. not sure though

[aenigma]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
Hey anigma.. you are such a f4g.. lol.. it's me.. icefoundry.. from AIM.. rofl

Besides.. I won't listen to your "propane isn't really flammable"

cuz you are just a crazy SOB with propane tanks in your bedroom :)

Blar.. it's not really that flammable.. It is.. but it isn't.. just have good air flow and it's fine

No :banana::banana::banana::banana:,I would have never guessed it was you :rolleyes:
I was saying it isnt as flammable as that one guy was saying,pay attention ;)

[libertate]

Anything markings I should look for on the compressor to know
for sure? I can go look at it again and POST back if I have an
idea what to look for.....

[libertate]

Also, how much do the vacuum pump and gauges typically cost?
And where can I get them from?

[|PuNiSh3R|]

250.00 for a good vac pump.. gauges.. depends.. check on ebay.. Not quite sure.. I'd guess anywhere from 20 dollars for like used ones to like 100 dollars?

See what HP the compressor is.. and the volt/amp

[libertate]

k, thanks... :)

also, is it possible to run 3 loops on the evaporator? so that
i could phase-change my cpu, vid-card, and nb?

[dmitriyaz]

yeah, as for the 3 loops,
i was wondering, should i do them in parallel or in series?

in series it would be easier, as the evaporator tube would go to CPU, then GPU, then NB.

but in parallel it would be more effective: 3 caplines go to 3 evaporators and the pressure drop is right inside the evaporators, where its needed, hence more effective.

i was thinking: do them in parallel, but use caplines to GPU and NB, and a Thermostatic Expansion Valve for a CPU.
the TEV (Thermostatic Expansion Valve) should be in the system, at least one. it makes sure that all the freon is avaporated before entering the compressor. if not, the liquid will damage your compressor.

the reason for 2caplines/ 1 TEV being:
caplines are cheaper and easier to make, plus they are easy to sub-cool.
there is only one TEV needed, so no reason to use more, besides, they are more expensive and harder to set up and to sub-cool.

what do you guys think?

[|PuNiSh3R|]

I am having a :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: time with my system.. can't get it to cool the water very good.. When I just run the system with no water.. the temp on the evap will easily hit -42F.. Tonite I even saw -50F.. I let out a LOT of propane.. so the thing was in a small vacuum.. Add in water.. BAM! temps suck ASS.. no matter what I do..

Also.. my cap tube gets COLD about 15" before it gets into my evaporator..

The evap sits vertically.. it's a spiral of 1/4" tubing.. it spirals down and exits the bottom.. I was thinking of having it enter the bottom and exit the top.. so the lower levels of the evap are colder.. I don't know.. Plus my high side line gets VERY VERY hot.. over 212.. when I drip some water on it.. it boils right off.. I am getting so pissed.. ready to say :banana::banana::banana::banana: it and just do a direct die system with my maze2.. GRRR!!

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Blar.. I am re-designing some parts of the system.. hoping this time I will get it right.

[libertate]

sorry to hear you're having trouble, hope you get it worked out bro :)

also, I'm assuming you're trying to find some shorter/smaller capillary?

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Well.. I re-did the system alright.. heh.. I kinda ripped the cap tube from the dryer.. Since this system cap tube and dryer came from a mini frige.. there was no way to fix it.. Well. extreme heat to get the silver solder off they used.. But didn't feel like going through it.. I need a new dryer and cap tube anyway.. Tomorrow I will go over to the local refrigeration place.. or the Syd Harvey store and get a new dryer and cap tube.. I think my new design will work.. I took out ALL unneccessary length's of tubing..

Here is a place to get vac pumps.. along with some really good info all of you phase change builders should read..

http://www.refparts.com/Catalog/Tools_&_Equipment/vacuum_pumps.asp

The mini frige only had a 1/20Hp compressor in it.. so the cap tube was setup for that power compressor.. So the new cap tube I get will be for my 1/4 (or 1/3HP.. still haven't found out if it's 1/4 or 1/3HP) compressor..

Does ANYONE here have some sort of chart for R-12 compressor power consumption? I'd like to know roughly how much energy my 1/4 . or 1/3HP.. whatever it is.. compressor takes..

[BigBadger]

|PuNiSh3R|

Sounds like the capillary is too long or you need more refrigerant in the system to me (or both).
I have a data sheet on capillary tube design, I've uploaded it so have a look see if it's any help: LINK (http://www.steve.bage.btinternet.co.uk/Tubes.pdf)

To conver your HP to Watts just multiply by 746 (1hp=746W)

My rigs gonna have two evap's one for the gfx and one on the cpu both with cap tube metering, as long as I use a nice big liquid receiver I don't think getting liquid returned to the compressor will be a big problem (I hope).

[dmitriyaz]

Originally posted by dmitriyaz
yeah, as for the 3 loops,
i was wondering, should i do them in parallel or in series?

in series it would be easier, as the evaporator tube would go to CPU, then GPU, then NB.

but in parallel it would be more effective: 3 caplines go to 3 evaporators and the pressure drop is right inside the evaporators, where its needed, hence more effective.

i was thinking: do them in parallel, but use caplines to GPU and NB, and a Thermostatic Expansion Valve for a CPU.
the TEV (Thermostatic Expansion Valve) should be in the system, at least one. it makes sure that all the freon is avaporated before entering the compressor. if not, the liquid will damage your compressor.

the reason for 2caplines/ 1 TEV being:
caplines are cheaper and easier to make, plus they are easy to sub-cool.
there is only one TEV needed, so no reason to use more, besides, they are more expensive and harder to set up and to sub-cool.

what do you guys think?
anyone wanna back me up on that? :wave:

[BigBadger]

I'm not sure a TEV in one loop and capillary tubes in the others is the way to go. As the TEV regulates flow to the cpu the flow to the other circuits would be affected too. It would be all but impossible to balance the flows between the 3 circuits.

When I was thinking about a TEV I had it planned to use one valve then split the TEV outlet line into the evaporators, no capillary required.

[dmitriyaz]

Originally posted by BigBadger
I'm not sure a TEV in one loop and capillary tubes in the others is the way to go. As the TEV regulates flow to the cpu the flow to the other circuits would be affected too. It would be all but impossible to balance the flows between the 3 circuits.

actually, i don't want the flow to be balanced.
i will design the flow distribution like so: 45% of the flow in the CPU block, 35% in GPU and 20% into the NB.
the TEV is there just to ENSURE that i won't have liquid in my compressor.
i will most likely make an error in my calculations, as there is just too many things to consider,
and TEV will correct that error by slightly adjusting the pressure drop.
for example:
i will use caplines in the GPU and NB, and a TEV in the CPU block.
i am a n00b, and i am making a gross miscalculation.
with the original distribution of 45/35/20 (%), there would be liquid in my compressor.
so the TEV contracts, sending less flow to my CPU than intended.
so after it balances out, the flow distribution will be like so (for example):
39 % CPU (instead of original 45%), 38.8% GPU, and 22.2% GPU.
a little off, but just fine!
the reason i still want to use caplines so much is the simplitity of making a capline-fed evaporator.
heres a drawing of a capline-fed evaporator block (notice the sub-cooling:D):
http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/599541.jpg

[BigBadger]

The big danger as I see it is the 3 flow paths available for the refrigerant. Under certain low load conditions the flow through the capillarys alone would be enough to bring the compressor inlet temp down below whatever set-point you used for the TEV, the TEV would then close completely and your cpu would be toast.
I'd go with either one TEV and no capillarys or no TEV and 3 capillarys, mixing both TEVs and capillarys in one system is asking for trouble (in my opinion).

Getting liquid returned to the compressor can be got around by having a good sized liquid receiver and anyway hermetic compressors will cope with quite a bit of liquid.

But there again you could give it a try, just make sure you test it out before bolting it to your PC.

[dmitriyaz]

good point.
i'll have to get back to you on that one, as i am kind of confused :)
though how would a receiver help with "liquid in compressor" problem?
:confused:

[BigBadger]

Oops, you're right a liquid receiver will not help, what I should have said was a 'accumulator'.:rolleyes: This is a vessel in the pump suction line that collects any liquid before it's drawn into the compressor, if this vessel is large enough (about 70% of the total liquid refigerant volume) no liquid will be drawn into the compressor. With a hermetic compressor the casing itself will collect liquid before it's drawn into the actual compressor, so unless you have a system with a high refrigerant volume you should not need to worry:D.

[dmitriyaz]

i see....
so should i use the caplines?
on the other hand, TEV makes sure that the EXACT pressure needed for maximum efficiency is applied. thants a point for TEV :)
what about 1 TEV and 3 blocks in series? TEVs are pretty expensive, so no way i can afford more than one...(a point for capline:))
another point for capline: if i use the design in my drawing (4 posts up), there will be major sub cooling, MAKING SURE all of it has evaporated before entering the compressor. or the accumulator.
what do you think, BigBadger?

[BigBadger]

Well I'm going with capillary tubes, cheaper and simpler. The only problem you could have if you use 3 is they would have to be very small bore and very long (I'm guessing about 2 - 3m @ 0.6mm bore) the more parallel cap lines you use the longer they need to be to give the right back pressure, one cap splitting into 3 may be a better way to go.
You need to do your sums...no one said it was easy;)

[dmitriyaz]

hehe yeah...i have a fairly good idea of how it should work now,
whats left is the math part. all this is stuff CAN be calculated,
i just don't know how.
the lengh of lines, flow, pressure delta, wattages, temps etc....
there's gotta be a bunch of formulas that link those parameters to one another...
it would be nice to play around with numbers and find the sweet spot...
quick question just to make sure: cap tube is technically a part of the condenser, right? i mean the terms and the pressure are similar...no?

[BigBadger]

I'm using a great program from tecumseh that sizes the hardware and works out capillary length, I got it on a CD from tecumseh but there was a basic version available for download. It's no longer available from tecumseh but i've uploaded it here: LINK (http://www.steve.bage.btinternet.co.uk/tecumseh.ZIP)
Hope it's of some help, i'll also see if i can extract the newer (much better) version from the CD.

[dmitriyaz]

kewl,
thanks!
i'm gonna try to figure out how to use it now :brick:
it would be really good it you could get that newer version... :)

[libertate]

I went looking around at different possibilities for compresser/caps/etc....

I know mini fridge=BAD , but I found a Haier mini with an
LG compresser and the only power rating I could find was "1ph"
what the hell does that mean? it didn't have a wattage/hp rating...

my full-size fridge @ home also has a "1ph" compressor on it,
so I'm assuming that has something to do with how much power
it draws?

Where does it say on the compressor what hp rating it is?
And what's the minimum power I should get? like....
1/4 hp... 1/2? or what?:confused:

[dmitriyaz]

1/3hp should be the optimum...
i have a 1hp compressor, haven't seen the temps with it yet,
but it would rape the power bill bigtime, so i dont plan on using it for too long.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

i got a good feeling i blew my compressor.. heh.. i hope that refrigerator that was in the garbage down the street in my neighborhood is still out.. hehe

[BigBadger]

Libertate,
1ph means the motor in single phase (as opposed to 3 phase industrial kit)....it's nothing to do with the power rating. Every piece of electrical equipment in your house will be 1ph because the domestic electrical supply is 1ph.

[dmitriyaz]

can you use the freezer/refrigirator compressors for this?
i thought you can't, since they are not designed for continous load...

[aenigma]

Originally posted by dmitriyaz
1/3hp should be the optimum...
i have a 1hp compressor, haven't seen the temps with it yet,
but it would rape the power bill bigtime, so i dont plan on using it for too long.
So where did you get that 1 hp compressor?And how do you know it is 1hp?

[dmitriyaz]

i bought a dehumidifier, it was in the specs.

[aenigma]

A 1HP dehumidifer?! :eek:
What exactly did the specs say,that is one hell of a dehumidifier.

[dmitriyaz]

Originally posted by aenigma
A 1HP dehumidifer?! :eek:
What exactly did the specs say,that is one hell of a dehumidifier.
740w compressor :D which is equal to 1 horse power.
its the top-of-the line kenmore, got it for $50 shipped :), see this thead: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2123

[aenigma]

I dont like using watts to determine hp,never works out right.
BTU is better.
But 1hp seems like way too much for only 65 pints.
1/4hp sounds more reasonable.

<edit>
Hmm either way,1hp compressors are pretty big, kind of loud too. :)
Wait that is rotary too hmmm.
Wonder what the LRA differance between rotary and reciprocating would be.
Do you know the LRA of that compressor?

[AKRedneck]

Originally posted by dmitriyaz

740w compressor :D which is equal to 1 horse power.
its the top-of-the line kenmore, got it for $50 shipped :), see this thead: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2123


Were you ever able to find a datasheet on the compressor?

I wouldn't mind seeing some lower evaporator temps on this unit I've got...more capillary tubing?

[dmitriyaz]

Redneck, i have the same exact dehumidifier as you :D
and YES IT IS ONE HORSE POWER. :mad:

[AKRedneck]

Originally posted by dmitriyaz
Redneck, i have the same exact dehumidifier as you :D
and YES IT IS ONE HORSE POWER. :mad:

Right, I know.. Just curious if you were able to find any more info on it from the manufacture, that's all..:confused:

Also, do you have any idea what it costs to get one of these things recharged with R22?

[dmitriyaz]

nope, sorry, i got nothing :)
and r290 (propane) is really the way to go, if you are gonna recharge.
it has much lower evaporation temperature, and its fully compatible with r134a.
just be careful, its flammable ;)

[DaGooch]

If interested in R290 and R134a performance and possibly making a non-flammable mixture that would outperform R134a alone can be found here: http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build94/art004.html

[dmitriyaz]

thanks for the link :)
i think i'll go with a pure r290 though,
its cheap,
it won't blow if i am careful,
and once i get it in, the risky part is over :thumbsup: :hehe:

[DaGooch]

Actually, if you download the .pdf file and look at the conclusion, it seems they found a mixture that is not flammable and has higher cooling and heating capacity than pure R290. If something happened, we would have to search for another Ritalin Junkie! :p

[dmitriyaz]

Originally posted by DaGoochMeister
If something happened, we would have to search for another Ritalin Junkie! :p
yep, you don't what THAT to happen! :hehe: (i feel special:D)

i will look some more into the .pdf file,
the flammability doesn't really scare me,
not nearly as much as a methanol based liquid for water cooling.
you breath a bit of that stuff in, or touch it, and you can go blind. taste a drop--and your dead.
so, r134a + r290 mix, eh?
the beauty of r290 alone is: its cheap, so you can take the system apart once in a while, let the propane out,
make modifications, seal and rechagre it. all at a virtually zero cost. :D

[JBELL]

dmitriyaz


boyyy lol you just dont know!!!


now give me back that bic lighter and step away!

[aenigma]

Originally posted by dmitriyaz
Redneck, i have the same exact dehumidifier as you :D
and YES IT IS ONE HORSE POWER. :mad:

Yes since you have built so many phase change systems :p

Oh btw what are you talking about,taste 1 drop of methanol and your dead?Uhhh I have got a mouthful of that crap,not too tasty,not as bad as antifreeze though.
But I am still alive...

FYI R22 is better than R290 ;)
But r290 is so cheap and easy to use,I like it....

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Ok, aenigma has taken in mass amounts of propane in a non-ventilated room.. drank methenal.. hmm

We are still trying to determine what sort of mutant he is.. Maybe from another planet.. I have no idea.. don't know how he's still alive.. hmm.. but once we found out what sort of freak ass he is..

bye bye!! :flame:

MUWAHAHAH!

my compressors dead.. I sure hope that refrigerator down the street is still out.. blarb

THe thing comes on.. makes a normal compressor sound.. except it doesn't pull a vacuum.. doesn't pull :banana::banana::banana::banana: for that matter.. then it goes CLICK.. no more compressor sound.. couple minutes later it will click again.. etc.. etc.. but no compressor workage.. I poured in some oil.. blasted the thing with propane.. hoping to kick start it.. nada..

[BigBadger]

Well I for one wont be filling my compressor with neat propane, don't care what anyone says there is too much risk of explosion. It just need a leak in a confined space (like the case of a PC or your room) to get the perfect air/propane mix + one spark (many sources in a PC) and you are history. I'm going with R404a it's better for low temp cooling than either propane or R134a, just a little more expensive.

Now methanol on the other hand is pretty safe, high flash point and I'm living proof that getting covered in the stuff on a regular basis does no harm.....as long as you don't drink too much of it!!:toast:

[aenigma]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
Ok, aenigma has taken in mass amounts of propane in a non-ventilated room.. drank methenal.. hmm

We are still trying to determine what sort of mutant he is.. Maybe from another planet.. I have no idea.. don't know how he's still alive.. hmm.. but once we found out what sort of freak ass he is..

bye bye!! :flame:

MUWAHAHAH!


hahaha I am immortal!!!muahahahahha
I strive on methanol and propane,it fuels me.... :banana:

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Badger.. you are such a :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:.. not to mention you must suck at soldering if you are worried about a leak in your phase change system.. :flame:

[aenigma]

Originally posted by BigBadger
Well I for one wont be filling my compressor with neat propane, don't care what anyone says there is too much risk of explosion. It just need a leak in a confined space (like the case of a PC or you're room) to get the perfect air/propane mix + one spark (many sources in a PC) and you are history. I'm going with R404a it's better for low temp cooling than either propane or R134a, just a little more expensive.

Now methanol on the other hand is pretty safe, high flash point and I'm living proof that getting covered in the stuff on a regular basis does no harm.....as long as you don't drink too much of it!!:toast:

Yep I spit it out....Damn manual pump priming heh

I dont see why you dont want to use propane,I have had no probelms with it in my systems,and trust me if you were going to get a fire(thats it,just a fire)you would have to almost plan it. :)

R290 also works good,but it would be nice to get some more R22
Oh and everything is better than R134a ;)
Hmmm R404a boils at -46.7 and R290 boils at -42 not too much of a differance
hmmm I think 6 bucks for 30 pounds is better than over 100 for the same ammount :)

[dmitriyaz]

hmm...how many refills will 30 pounds get you? :hehe:

[|PuNiSh3R|]

oh please -42 my ass.. i was seeing -46 with propane and i wasn't even in a god damn vacuum..

I was afraid with propane too.. but i've sprayed so much of that :banana::banana::banana::banana: around.. it won't :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing blow up.. don't be so worried

[aenigma]

Originally posted by dmitriyaz
hmm...how many refills will 30 pounds get you? :hehe:
Damned if I know :eek:
Alot would be a good answer. :)

[|PuNiSh3R|]

A LOT.. i've been using a half empty 20lb tank.. I've f'in filled my system like 10 times.. blew a lot of that propane out.. still plenty left..

Cost to refill = 10 bux

Money I spent on like 10 12oz cans of r-134a = more then 30.00

[aenigma]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
oh please -42 my ass.. i was seeing -46 with propane and i wasn't even in a god damn vacuum..

I was afraid with propane too.. but i've sprayed so much of that :banana::banana::banana::banana: around.. it won't :banana::banana::banana::banana:ing blow up.. don't be so worried
-42 is the documented boiling point. :p
I can get below -60f ;)

[dmitriyaz]

heh :)

also, i thought the beauty of r290 is that its compatible with ANY compressor...

is there any other cheap refidgirant with very low (below 40) boiling point that will work with any compressor? i doubt it...

[|PuNiSh3R|]

MAPP gas.. (methane accetylene propadiene stabilized)

[aenigma]

Originally posted by dmitriyaz
heh :)

also, i thought the beauty of r290 is that its compatible with ANY compressor...

is there any other cheap refidgirant with very low (below 40) boiling point that will work with any compressor? i doubt it...
Yeah it is compatible with any compressors....
There are better refrigerants out there,but price becomes an issue along with lack of certification.
But those strange 1HP dehumidifer that should only be 1/4 or 1/2hp might have a hard time with it :p

<edit> ?Nevermind I see you said cheap refrigerant heh
Yeah mapp gas may work ok,need to have someone test it.
</edit>

[|PuNiSh3R|]

nah.. I already know someone who is using MAPP gas.. so far so good.. I will keep reporting the progress this crazy man is getting..

[|PuNiSh3R|]

:banana::banana::banana::banana:.. 1HP dehumidifier.. GO KENMOORE! w00t w00t w00t! LET'S LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT HVAC NOW BABY!

[aenigma]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
nah.. I already know someone who is using MAPP gas.. so far so good.. I will keep reporting the progress this crazy man is getting..

I know the same guy dude ;)
He hasnt got his system working right yet,that is why we need to wait for him to test it. :p

[|PuNiSh3R|]

so far so good..

good as in he hasn't blown himself up yet :)

[ssjwizard]

im probably going to give up on mapp gas i dont have much left nor do i have a set of guages on hand plus i need new capilary tube im moving to a mixture of R-50 and R-290 but just for you guys ill do it with mapp once just to see how it works out cus its spendy. anyways my water chiller will be up soon and ill let you guys know how it works out once i manage to get my hands on another set of guages with hoses. hell i may even forgo guages if i can just get ahold of some stinking hose

[BigBadger]

Things are coming along slowly with my R404a system. Having just about feinted when I got a price for a custom made case for the refrige unit I decided to make one myself. I got myself some 1.5mm thick aluminium sheet and some 40mmx40mm aluminium angle section and got to work.........

Here's the results so far, i still need to make the side and front covers but you can see where i'm going, once it's finished the PC will sit on top.

http://www.steve.bage.btinternet.co.uk/RefCase1.jpg

http://www.steve.bage.btinternet.co.uk/RefCase2.jpg

[Charles Wirth]

That is tight, patent the design as you have a working prototype and sell it in the US thx.

Got them on order yet?

[|PuNiSh3R|]

That's a nice rig Badger.. good job.. You even have an accumulator . right? Or is that a sub cooler?

I believe I even see one of those good dryers.. the Sporlan brand? Everything in your system is nice and shiny too! hehe.. good work on it all.. hows the sucker in noise though? quiet or what?? water chiller or on die?

The system looks like you just ganked it from a good A/C unit actually.. did you build the whole thing yourself? solder the lines? or use flare fittings? TALK!! TALK OR I WILL HURT YOU! MUWAHAHAH!

I need to get my propane tank today.. all out of liquid propane :( Plus I took off the DD SuperCube I was using as the condensor.. going to see if my new double spiral 1/4" tubing condensor is worth :banana::banana::banana::banana:... lol.. I am in the way of designing some type of small yet good condensor.. don't know I've LOVE something just like the DD SuperCube.. except with 1/4" tubing.. and having the tubing start at the front and wind to the back horizontally.. then wind to the front.. then to the back.. then to the front.. till the whole cube is filled with tubing.. that would be such an OWNIJ design If only.. hmmm.. OOH! Maybe I will try it..

[BigBadger]

|PuNiSh3R| Thanks:D

you know your refrigeration...yeah it's a Sporlen dryer, the 'catch-all' type, to filter out any crap that I leave in the system after soldering.
The system came as a 'condensing unit' complete with condensor and accumulator so most of the soldering was done for me. I've done the soldering of the evaporators and the remaining tubing.....
Tell me , do you solder under nitrogen or just in air? I get a load of scale after soldering, I guess soldering under a nitrogen blanket would get around the problem. One more thing on the soldering subject; is soft (tin/lead) solder ok? I've been using copper alloy rods but the final joint to the manifod on the unit has me worried, not sure if I'll be able to get enough heat into it for the copper rods, and would it damage the valves?
So far I've just used a blowtorch but I could get hold of an oxy-acetylene torch if required (have to be carefull not to melt the copper!)

[|PuNiSh3R|]

I use this stuff right here to solder
http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/showskus.asp?ctgname=Solder&ctg=7&subctg=0&prodgrpid=364

I use a MAPP torch.. and the flux that goes with the solder.. it works quite well.. Never had the solder break on me or leak.

You can pick this solder up at a hardware store for around 5 bux for a big roll of it.. I recommend this solder to you.. as it's cheap.. easy to work with.. unlike silver solder.. and it actually works quite well. Silver solder is stronger through.. and if you can get your hands on it and a torch that will do around 1300-1400F pretty quick... then I'd recommend silver solder.. otherwise this stuff will do just fine.


would it damage the valves?

Not sure what you mean here..

A good MAPP torch will be fine.. check the ones they have at HomeDepot.. like the TS4000 model.. that's the one I use.. it works quite well.. cost me 40 dollars with a can of MAPP gas too.

[BigBadger]

Thanks for the advice, the valves I mentioned are built ito the manifold, you can see them between the compressor and the dryer. they have plastic handle so those at least would need to come off to do the soldering.
The solder you use has a much lower melt point than the stuff I've been using, sounds like a good bet.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Can u give me some pics of these valves you speak of?

[BigBadger]

Here they are, the one on the right is the liquid valve and the one on the left the vapor return to the pump..........However i fear it could be too late, I had a attempt to solder the liquid line onto the valve. The attempt failed as my torch would not put enough heat into the joint but now the valve won't turn, i may have melted the seals....DOH
http://www.steve.bage.btinternet.co.uk/Manifold.jpg

[|PuNiSh3R|]

I don't know what to say. I haven't seen anything like that on a system before.. so you got me..

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Hmm.. I think I know why my system isn't working.. I think anyway.. I just unwrapped and stretched my cap tube out as good as possible.. and it measured at 4ft 4".. or 52".. it's probably over that though cuz the thing isn't perfectly straight.. I'm guessing around 4ft 7" or 55".. which I believe is to long.. should be around 3 to 4ft.. I think anyway.. I was going to buy new cap tube and start off at 4Ft and work my way down.. but now that I see am I already running well over 4Ft right now.. heh

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Now that I cut the cap tube down to around 40" .. from 54".. I get a lot more air force through the tube... a lot more air comes through it now with more force.

[BigBadger]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
Now that I cut the cap tube down to around 40" .. from 54".. I get a lot more air force through the tube... a lot more air comes through it now with more force.

A shorter cappilary will certainly result in more flow but the compressor suction pressure will be higher (because refrigerant flows through the capilay more easily) therfore the evaporating temp will be higher also. Rough rule of thumb is for every 2% decrease in cap tube length there will be a 1C rise in evap temp....on the other hand the longer the cap tube the lower the heat load capacity.
I've calculated the tube on my rig to be 1.5 M long (for one 0.66mm cap tube) this should give a high side pressure of 14.5 Bara and a low side of 1.25 Bara, evap temp -40C with a heat load capacity of 170w.
Just hope i've done the sums right:rolleyes:

[UaZa]

im building a r404a system too..
i want at least -50c on the evap with no load..
compressor im thinking in a elgin tca1042d 1/2hp... what do you guys think? should be enouch?

[aenigma]

Originally posted by UaZa
im building a r404a system too..
i want at least -50c on the evap with no load..
compressor im thinking in a elgin tca1042d 1/2hp... what do you guys think? should be enouch?

Hmmm well you will probably be able to get that pretty easily with no load.
Just undercharge it,it wont have any heat capacity,but it will get really cold.

No load temps dont mean anything,-50c no load might = 20c under load from being under cahrged :eek:

With a 1/2hp you should get pretty good results though.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Yea well the length of my cap tube was just horrible for my system through.. Even though.. my cap tube is :banana::banana::banana::banana:.. clogged up some where.. I figure it by my HIGH high side PSI's and my LOW low side PSI's.. like -20" vacuum at 200PSI high side.. heh.. it's a definite sign of blockage in the tube... air comes through fine.. just not liquid.. Tomorrow I will have new tube and a strainer. Going to start off at 4ft of cap tube.. work my way down if needed.

[BigBadger]

Originally posted by UaZa
im building a r404a system too..
i want at least -50c on the evap with no load..
compressor im thinking in a elgin tca1042d 1/2hp... what do you guys think? should be enouch?

Do you have a data sheet on the compessor? I would say -50 is a little ambitous, my system is a 1/2hp compressor (Tecumseh AEZ2515Z) using R404a. it will give -40C with 170W load....it would be easy enough to design it for -50C but the heat load would drop away to 50W-75W.....not much use for modern cpu's

[aenigma]

Originally posted by BigBadger


Do you have a data sheet on the compessor? I would say -50 is a little ambitous, my system is a 1/2hp compressor (Tecumseh AEZ2515Z) using R404a. it will give -40C with 170W load....it would be easy enough to design it for -50C but the heat load would drop away to 50W-75W.....not much use for modern cpu's
Yeah he is talking -50c no load.Pretty easy to get a systm that cold with no load,but when he starts cooling something with it,the temps are definitely going to rise..
Best way to figure it out.....build it and test it :)

[UaZa]

yeah,... thats exatly what i want... -40c with 170w load.. :]
ill post updates... i didnt bought the parts yet.. ;]
btw.. my waterchiller is 1/4hp r12 (tecumseh AE1343AS) with 18 liters res and give me -15/-20c on water.. i think sould be a good update... ;]

Bigbadger, Your compressor (Tecumseh AEZ2515Z) is really good? i think i can find it too.. and that think between the compressor and cond is a refrigerant filter drier or what? ;] .. and what model too ';)

[aenigma]

Originally posted by UaZa
yeah,... thats exatly what i want... -40c with 170w load.. :]
ill post updates... i didnt bought the parts yet.. ;]
btw.. my waterchiller is 1/4hp r12 (tecumseh AE1343AS) with 18 liters res and give me -15/-20c on water.. i think sould be a good update... ;]

Bigbadger, Your compressor (Tecumseh AEZ2515Z) is really good? i think i can find it too.. and that think between the compressor and cond is a refrigerant filter drier or what? ;] .. and what model too ';)
You mean between the condenser and the TXV?
That would be a reciever.They have them on air conditioners for cars also....

[BigBadger]

UaZa....Sory I had a slight typo ealier, the compressor is a AEZ2415Z....The whole assembly(Compressor, Condensor and Receiver) can be bought as a unit and 'Condensing Unit' model no AEZ2405ZBR.
See the data sheet here: LINK (http://www.steve.bage.btinternet.co.uk/AEZ2415ZBR.pdf)

[dmitriyaz]

Badger, so it was pre-assembled all nicely like that? :thumbsup:
if its no secret, how much did you buy it for and where?
also, how much more expensive is r404a than, say, r290 or r134a?
and the last question: can you charge a r404a chiller with r290, since they have very similar properties?
thanks :hehe:

[|PuNiSh3R|]

you can charge 404 with 290.. From what I believe propane can be put in anything.. Hell I put in 134a in an R12 compressor with out flushing it or anything.. I wouldn't recommend doing it though.. heh.. It seems that 134a doesn't like to work to well in any other compressors unless they are flushed and filled with the 134a oil.. ester or a PAG oil (PAG oil = very bad product).

But I don't know the compressor I put the 134a in was basically dead anyway.. Ended up killing it later on.. thing was a POS couldn't compress a pea..

[|PuNiSh3R|]

oh and aenigma.. it's not TXV.. it's TEV.. Please.. use TEV here.. not everyone knows what TXV means..

Thank You

[aenigma]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
oh and aenigma.. it's not TXV.. it's TEV.. Please.. use TEV here.. not everyone knows what TXV means..

Thank You
Yes...it is TXV.
Read a book sometime.

Thank You ;)

[BigBadger]

Originally posted by dmitriyaz
Badger, so it was pre-assembled all nicely like that? :thumbsup:
if its no secret, how much did you buy it for and where?
also, how much more expensive is r404a than, say, r290 or r134a?
and the last question: can you charge a r404a chiller with r290, since they have very similar properties?
thanks :hehe:

The compressor and condensor came pre assembled on a bed plate.....but I've done the aluminium case, the evaporators and the 'plumbing' up to the evaps.
I'm in the UK, i got it from a local refrigeration supply outfit. i'm sure you would be able to pick up something similar most any place if you shop around. I payed £170 (UK £).

[dmitriyaz]

J170...yeah, that bites :slash:
although sure as f|ck beats buying prometeia :hehe:
i'll give my local refridgiration parts store a visit...
i just checked out prices for r404a, :eek:
and i am positive i can't afford it.
just curious, in the Tecusmeh software, is it possible to calculate everying with a compressor that designed, for, say, a404a and is used with r290?
thanks.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Grr.. I don't know what to do.. I just keep chopping cap tube off.. down to 18" now.. and I am just starting to see desirable PSI's.. 10 low side and 225 high side.. I want to keep it around 10 low side at 175 high side.. some where in there.. not over 200 high side though.. grr.. The only thing I can do is cut more cap tube off.. I started off at like 4' 6".. and kept going down.. down down..

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Oh, and when I start to get such high high side PSI's my low side line straight to my dryer are hot.. grr.. My system would be kicking ass if I had like 3' of cap tube and 10 low side and like 175 high side.. wish I could make that happen..

[BigBadger]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
Grr.. I don't know what to do.. I just keep chopping cap tube off.. down to 18" now.. and I am just starting to see desirable PSI's.. 10 low side and 225 high side.. I want to keep it around 10 low side at 175 high side.. some where in there.. not over 200 high side though.. grr.. The only thing I can do is cut more cap tube off.. I started off at like 4' 6".. and kept going down.. down down..

That cap tube is way too short......acording to the data i have the length should be between 1.5m and 2.5m, but it depends on tube diameter also. Should you not be looking for low side pressure around 0 psi (gauge)?

[dmitriyaz]

BigBadger,
are there any other properties of the refrigrant, aside from boiling temperature, that i should look into when desinging a system?
especially one with r290 and a compressor that was designed for some other regridgirant...?
and:
Originally posted by dmitriyaz
just curious, in the Tecusmeh software, is it possible to calculate everying with a compressor that is designed, for, say, a404a and is used with r290?
thanks.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

.028

I know the cap tube is way to short... but 1.5m is like.. 4ft.. and 2.5m is over 6ft.. that's way to much.. ggrr i don't know what to do..

[ssjwizard]

dmitriyaz also check molecular weight if its a bottled refridgerant its probably ok but as R290 is a class 4 refridgerant(natural gas) it doesnt have any addatives to weight it down and CAN have compression issues though typicaly its not that ibg a problem you want over 40weight for sure but closer to 100

[BigBadger]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
.028

I know the cap tube is way to short... but 1.5m is like.. 4ft.. and 2.5m is over 6ft.. that's way to much.. ggrr i don't know what to do..

I'm just going by what the manufacturer (tecumseh) says in their data sheet on capillary tube design here: Cap tube (http://www.steve.bage.btinternet.co.uk/Tubes.pdf)

I've also use Tecumseh's program to size my cap tube which comes out at 1.6M with 0.26" or 2.1M with 0.028" tube. It all very much depends on flow rate evap temp and ambient temp.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Yea.. well I found the problem out.. I figured that if my cap tube wasn't blocked.. which it isn't.. and I barely have any tube.. and yet I still have low low side PSI's.. then I must have a block some where else.. at the end of the evap.. on the suction line..

And I couldn't be more right.. there was a block at the end of the evap at my one solder point. Big old block at that.. very little room for anything to get by.. so I am going to put a flare fitting here.. I am basically using flares all over the place.. I don't care to solder.. flare fittings work great.. and it's easy to just take stuff apart then on the fly.

[ssjwizard]

good going pun.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Blar.. it's not the root of the problem though.. still seeing the same PSI's.. grr! I need to fix my 2 access valves.. i bet there is blockage there.. on the low and high side..

[|PuNiSh3R|]

I just made my first new access valve.. looks sort of like a shotgun smoking device.. if you know what I mean.. :) That gives me an idea.. hmmm

I'll have to post some pics of it.. heh

[|PuNiSh3R|]

w00h00! the new access valve held on my low side pretty good.. tested it to 110 PSI.. no problem.. :)

[libertate]

how do you make the evaporator part that goes to the cpu?

[BigBadger]

libertate,
Some people use waterblocks, which is ok providing they are good for the pressure involved. i had my eveporators machined from a 2"dia bar of copper.

[TheDude]

Hey guys,

This is a great thread for people who are interested in learning to "do it themselves". Could you please continue to post as many pics as possible? It really helps to see what you are talking about for those of us trying to follow you. This really is the best thread I have seen on the subject....thanks for sharing your knowledge!:D

[dmitriyaz]

i have read that aside from the compressors specifically designed to run with propane, the best ones to use with it are the R12 compressors, since r290 (propane) and r12 have almost the same boiling temperature.

r290 is the refrigirant of choice for me, because i want to be able to take the system apart whenever i want to, make modifications, and re-charge it. without worrying about bio hazards and wasting $40 every time. but i'd like to see for myself, and compare the properties of other refgirirants to r290. i've been looking for a chart that would give all the data about all the refrigirants. the r290 copmpressors/condensing units are hard to find, so that info would help me pick the best gear for it without paying a :banana::banana::banana::banana:load.

unfortunately, i haven't been able to find one as of yet, does anyone know where to find something like that? a link, maybe? :)

thanks :hehe:

[BigBadger]

Originally posted by TheDude
Hey guys,

This is a great thread for people who are interested in learning to "do it themselves". Could you please continue to post as many pics as possible? It really helps to see what you are talking about for those of us trying to follow you. This really is the best thread I have seen on the subject....thanks for sharing your knowledge!:D

You asked for pictures, not sure if i've already posted the pics of my evaporators but here they are anyway:
http://www.steve.bage.btinternet.co.uk/Evap2.JPG

[libertate]

So, say I was going to use a swifty waterblock...
would I then solder the evaporator copper tubing onto
one of the barbs on the wb? and then run the same size
tube from the other barb into the compressor?


Also, on the subject of using a swifty waterblock, since
they are so easy to insulate and use with pelts, would
it work to use say a 226 watt pelt on a p4 with an
r290 phase change running to cool it off? or would the
temps be about the same?

[TheDude]

BigBadger,

Thanks for the pic...must have already been posted tho as I have it stored on my CD. JUST FOR PERSONAL REFERENCE...I would NEVER post it anywhere else on the net for any reason...Hope that's OK...I really should have asked first.
The making of such things is way beyond my abilities, but I think I could find a machinist to make one from the pic.
Thanks again.....as I said before...this is an excellent thread and also serves to draw some eyes to this forum as information of this caliber is difficult to find in one place.
:D

[ssjwizard]

ok in theory the colder you get the pelt the colder the cold side gets so youd get phenominaly cold temps. but ive heard rumors of them loosing efficancy once they get down to sub zero temps ive never tested it so i couldnt tell you

[libertate]

hmm.... sounds like something I'm going to have to try
once I do build my phase change....

but anyway, am I basically right about running the
evap tubing to one barb, and out the other into the compressor?

if so could i then run the evap tubing into the cpu waterblock barb,
and then out of the output barb into a gpu waterblock, and
from the gpu into the compressor? or maybe even to
a chipset block and then to the compressor?

I realize that'll be a tremendous heatload though......
so perhaps I can choose the amount of refridgerant with that
in mind?.......

[UaZa]

hmm..i was thinking about the same thing! using my MCW462UT as a evaporator..
but i wont use pelts with it..

should work? :P

[|PuNiSh3R|]

What you do is take the barbs out of the waterblock and put in flare fittings in place..

You take a piece of 1/4" tubing.. about 2" long.. flare the piece of copper.. put your flare nut on it.. then put your cap tube through the 1/4" tubing.. into the waterblock.. so it's about 1/4" away from the bottom of the block on the inside.. then crimp the 1/4" tubing at the end of it.. solder it closed.. then screw the flare down.. on the exit of the block have another flare with 1/4" tubing.. going back to your compressor.. just flare the tubing and tighten it down.. simple enough? :)

I believe that should work fine.. I'd pick a waterblock with a small channel.. like a spiral block.. like the one from www.geminicool.com but the copper top version.. You'll need to put a layer of solder or braze around the outside of the block.. I believe it's only screwed down.. You'll need to take out any O-ring that might be in it too.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Oh, I'd love to have an on-die evaporator milled that would have a cut out in the bottom that goes right over the die.. and the block just covers the die.. So the die is sitting inside of this cut out in the bottom of the block.. the rest of the CPU is visible.. the refrigerant goes into the block and squirted right around that cut out.. It would own.. look damn good too.

[aenigma]

Originally posted by |PuNiSh3R|
What you do is take the barbs out of the waterblock and put in flare fittings in place..

You take a piece of 1/4" tubing.. about 2" long.. flare the piece of copper.. put your flare nut on it.. then put your cap tube through the 1/4" tubing.. into the waterblock.. so it's about 1/4" away from the bottom of the block on the inside.. then crimp the 1/4" tubing at the end of it.. solder it closed.. then screw the flare down.. on the exit of the block have another flare with 1/4" tubing.. going back to your compressor.. just flare the tubing and tighten it down.. simple enough? :)

I believe that should work fine.. I'd pick a waterblock with a small channel.. like a spiral block.. like the one from www.geminicool.com but the copper top version.. You'll need to put a layer of solder or braze around the outside of the block.. I believe it's only screwed down.. You'll need to take out any O-ring that might be in it too.

Actually a o-ring works fine at high pressures.
I have used a waterblock as an evaporator with no problems,o-rings work great.

[BigBadger]

Originally posted by aenigma


Actually a o-ring works fine at high pressures.
I have used a waterblock as an evaporator with no problems,o-rings work great.

O-rings can work fine at high pressures however you really should check the material because vary few elastomers are safe down to the temps seen in refrigeration systems. Most standard o-rings will be some grade of Viton which is rated only to -26C (-15F).

[aenigma]

Originally posted by BigBadger


O-rings can work fine at high pressures however you really should check the material because vary few elastomers are safe down to the temps seen in refrigeration systems. Most standard o-rings will be some grade of Viton which is rated only to -26C (-15F).

Exactly,thats what I wouldnt be sure of.
If I remember right I was pumping liquid at around that temp through it.Really cheap overclockers hideout slot1 block too.
If my block wasnt lucite I would make it direct die,wonder what psi lucite can handle....

[ssjwizard]

i dont know. personaly i wouldnt trust lucite on something that doesnt have to be water tight let alone something that does. im sure it works in water cooling just fine but it doesnt like stress.

[aenigma]

Originally posted by ssjwizard
i dont know. personaly i wouldnt trust lucite on something that doesnt have to be water tight let alone something that does. im sure it works in water cooling just fine but it doesnt like stress.

Hmm you never know.
With the system running it would be fine,just when you turn it off is when you'd hav to worry heh.
I know the maze2 takes over 1000psi
Be nice to know what the maze3 with lucite top takes,maybe I should just do it and find out :)
If it breaks I can get some thing good instead haha

[|PuNiSh3R|]

They say on DD's site that they test the maze3 to 85 PSI.. So obviously not much more then that..

I wouldn't leave the o-ring in for the fact that if it doesn't handle the pressure or the cold temps it might start to fragment.. and I sure as hell wouldn't want that rubber crap getting stuck up in my system and in my dryer.. It's just better to solder the damn block shut.. plus once you start putting your torch heat on the block it will F that o-ring up.

[bowman1964]

aenigma.....|PuNiSh3R|.....ssjwizard.....i see the gangs all here how is everyone.i been busy so i am just gettineg out again.

guys you can use a water block, but like i have tested they do not have enought surface area to disapate the heat quickly enought.that is why i spent so much time designing the evaperator that keeps mine down to -57 unloaded -44 loaded on a xp2100@2150mhz @1.95 volts.hey check out your old stomping grounds i am going to build a in the case. phase change direct die on cpu and chiller on video and chipset. i like -44 inder load on the cpu but -5 to 0 will be fine with me for video and chipset.with chiller inside.all inside of a single case.

any way hope you guys are staying out of trouble. he he he.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

Bleh.. I wouldn't go back to OCF if you beat me with a stick..

I am in a serious need of gauges, hoses, and a vacuum pump now.. grr! Anyone know where I can get them CHEAP? lmk!!

[BigBadger]

The slow progress continues!......here is my graphics card evaporator mounted on my brand new Winfast Geforce4 Ti4600:
http://www.steve.bage.btinternet.co.uk/gfx-evap.jpg

[aenigma]

Originally posted by bowman1964
aenigma.....|PuNiSh3R|.....ssjwizard.....i see the gangs all here how is everyone.i been busy so i am just gettineg out again.

guys you can use a water block, but like i have tested they do not have enought surface area to disapate the heat quickly enought.that is why i spent so much time designing the evaperator that keeps mine down to -57 unloaded -44 loaded on a xp2100@2150mhz @1.95 volts.hey check out your old stomping grounds i am going to build a in the case. phase change direct die on cpu and chiller on video and chipset. i like -44 inder load on the cpu but -5 to 0 will be fine with me for video and chipset.with chiller inside.all inside of a single case.

any way hope you guys are staying out of trouble. he he he.

Yeah the wb I used for an evap worked pretty horrible.But only because it was a garbage aluminum waterblock.It was so thick it took forever to cool down.
But the o-ring definately did take it.

BigBadger:
I dont see any insulation on that :)

[BigBadger]

Dont worry about the insulation...it will be there before i fire her up. I need to complete the 'plumbing' and pressure test before i install the insulation (kinda hard to spot any leaks if it's buried in insulation).

[|PuNiSh3R|]

(Slurp) .. very nice badger man..

[aenigma]

Originally posted by BigBadger
Dont worry about the insulation...it will be there before i fire her up. I need to complete the 'plumbing' and pressure test before i install the insulation (kinda hard to spot any leaks if it's buried in insulation).

Yeah I know...
Just wondering what kind of insulation.

[bowman1964]

yea i use nitrogen to test the system for leaks.install a set of gauges and pressurize to 200 psi must hold for 24 hours or you have a leak.

|PuNiSh3R| im not in ocf much ,i like the pro/forums for cooling stuff.

BigBadger i like your evaperators look good.wish you luck.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

when testing my stuff I just shoot the low side up to 110PSI.. and the high side up to 300.. if it holds that.. then it's good.. cuz I don't let my system go over 225 PSI high side.. and when it equalizes it's around 80-90 low.. I know nothing on my system will leak though besides solder points.. which there is only 2 of them.. well.. 4.. 2 at the compressor.. 2 at the cap tube.. everything else is flare fitting.

[aenigma]

Originally posted by bowman1964
yea i use nitrogen to test the system for leaks.install a set of gauges and pressurize to 200 psi must hold for 24 hours or you have a leak.

|PuNiSh3R| im not in ocf much ,i like the pro/forums for cooling stuff.

BigBadger i like your evaperators look good.wish you luck.

My old stomping grounds would be [H]ard|Forums :)
Now I am just everywhere heh

Oh and in your other thread you were talking about making a new condenser.Why not use the condenser off of your current one?

[ssjwizard]

yea i still hang around oc forums i jump in on all the cooling/clocking forums now days im pretty busy now as well my system should be done soon im going to make some changes to my current water chiler as it will be going on my gpu and cpu and my other cooler will be runing my cpu 3/4hp compressor 25' 3/8" od swelled to 1/2" od condenser with my on die evaporator.

[|PuNiSh3R|]

omg.. did i just hear 1/2" tubing condensor?! SJWIZZARD! You are such a bad boy!

[ssjwizard]

knock it off pun before i get out my paddle and get you over a chair ;P

[naTTen]

What compressor are you going to use and which refrigant,, BigBadger and bowman1964 ??

[bowman1964]

well i like r12 compressors.i can buy r22 cheap at work .so i can convert that easyer.r12..r22....r502 all use the same oil so you can swap tham all around.but the r22 is harder on compressor as so is the r502.i am toying with the idea of using some r502.not sure if i want to spend the money though


Oh and in your other thread you were talking about making a new
condenser.Why not use the condenser off of your current one?

well as you can tell time is not good to me anymore.kids started school so i am busy and new girlfriend wants all my time so i am thinking about buying a condensor or maybe a condensor unit like BigBadger.
but what i am doing differant than everone else is i am having a custon alum case made that liiks like a factory bought case but with compressor and water chill small unit for chipset and (not sure it i will on die cool video or chiller cool)i am trying to find a reasonally cheap therm control unit that is led readable.to go in the front for a nice effect.
dont work i will keep you you on it.just keep checking the pro/forum you will see it come to life i hope/

[BigBadger]

R404A for me.....I dont like the expense either but I've come too far to change my design now

[UaZa]

BigBadger,
very nive evaporator..
check pm

[aenigma]

Originally posted by bowman1964
well i like r12 compressors.i can buy r22 cheap at work .so i can convert that easyer.r12..r22....r502 all use the same oil so you can swap tham all around.but the r22 is harder on compressor as so is the r502.i am toying with the idea of using some r502.not sure if i want to spend the money though



well as you can tell time is not good to me anymore.kids started school so i am busy and new girlfriend wants all my time so i am thinking about buying a condensor or maybe a condensor unit like BigBadger.
but what i am doing differant than everone else is i am having a custon alum case made that liiks like a factory bought case but with compressor and water chill small unit for chipset and (not sure it i will on die cool video or chiller cool)i am trying to find a reasonally cheap therm control unit that is led readable.to go in the front for a nice effect.
dont work i will keep you you on it.just keep checking the pro/forum you will see it come to life i hope/

Time?No I didnt say make a new one,I was wondering why you dont just use the one you already have?Be alot easier than buying something else.
Unless of course you want to keep this system intact/use it for something else.

I am sure you have access to alot of old a/c units,look through them.I bet you can find one from an a/c unit,I found one much like the one you built in a 11,500btu a/c shell.But it had 2 more rows.
It was actually an evaporator,but it was just like your condenser.

Looking through some a/c units would really pay off.

<edit> Nevermind I see you already ordered a condenser and compressor :)
BTW how much did you pay for them?

[nyTroX]

WoW!! I think you guys are nuts for using propane or butane for refrigerant, I hope you've got fire extinguishers handy!
But anyway I'm glad I saw this thread, I've been thinking of trying to build my own phase change cpu cooling system. I have access to all this equipment, and then some, and I've been fixing refrigeration units for a living for several years now. I mainly service grocery stores multi-compressor rack systems for all the refrigerated cases and walk-in coolers and freezers.
This is a topic I'm gonna watch!

PICS, Please!!:doh:

[Pimpsho]

damn!! i love those blocks u made big bagger!! how did u make them?? im tearing appart my parrents freezer soon, like in 2 weeks and im wondering what im going to need to make this setup work!!

[Charles Wirth]

Yeah, pc ice it should have a decent compressor. Is it new?

[Charles Wirth]

You would just turn on compressor a few minutes before the PC.

I started to transform a water block into a evaporator but I picked up a exceptional Prometeia and just used the compressor as a drop in evaporator to assist my freezer as a water chiller.

[TheDude]

pc ice,

Any chance of a few pics as you go along? :D

[Bra!nFreeZe^]

Damn i cant wait until i get my vapo!